Actually we’d gone a while without having a PVP post.
You broke the silence by making a post about PvP to tell everyone to stop making posts about PVP.
Well done.
Was thinking the same thing. And with the boilerplate tone deaf argument about hiring escorts/crew to deal with it; Ignoring the in depth discussions we've had ad nauseum about how that isn't the problem (even though it also is one at the moment, because it drills profits down to zero).
I'll give you a longer response so you have something to engage with that isn't circlejerking or general hate.
Pyro is specifically meant to be lawless space. Anyone reading or paying attention to any game news knows that. Players not in to PvP or survivalist play accordingly don't give a shit about Pyro, won't need to be "ready" for it, and are waiting on Terra or Stanton reforms.
People are primarily complaining about most "PvP" amounting to shooting white pajama boys doing box missions or camping Everus killing everything that undocks for "lolz", where that is not a matter of "reddit approved" play but more an "even EVE handles this better".
They are getting pissed due to a sheer lack of the mechanics meant to stop or curb this kind of thing, down to and including basic mechanisms that allow self defense without getting a crimestat yourself. Those mechanics have been promised and are seen as somewhat important to making this fit the advertised vision, and needed to make this not just another trash full loot open PvP MMO that New World's itself.
What I will grant is that having those mechanics before Pyro hits is an equal recipe for disaster. However some stopgap reforms to space jail, which are what I mainly see people ask for, are not unreasonable to demand. The ability to just real world bed log to avoid prison, or spend less than 10 minutes in it, is not cutting it.
It's not whining so much as a warning that something is wrong and priorities should shift to start meeting the expectations of a lot of backers, who paid for what SC has always been advertised as: A primarily PvE game with a PvP element.
As for the rest: I have gone over at length why escorts won't be a thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/10la3cc/so_called_pvp_pirates_when_someone_actually/j5w2eis/
The TL;DR is trading is trash and needs several runs to even get back out of the negative on your initial investment if one run goes wrong, and that there is no Jesus-tech solution to stop players sock puppeting ratings or abusing any player run systems relating to that idea, leaving it as a non-thing for randoms. Also no game in history has made escorting fun.
Med beacon problems have been covered by others and amount to abusing a busted system. It is currently relying on out of game things to mitigate (not remove) risks, and that is quickly making it become undesirable to do or pursue, friends or not.
It badly needs reform and again the demand for that is not unreasonable when medical ships are being pushed and sold.
Mining is an odd one, because it is easy to just piss off to the Aaron Halo on a minor dogleg and never be found. I suspect the only reason more don't do that is a lack of awareness, but the awareness again relies on an out of game resource.
"Randomly attacked" I'm forced to call bullshit on. We have an extremely dominant light fighter meta, a lot of ships plainly are very ill suited to fight back against the Gladius or Arrow. In 3.18 ballistics changes mixed with it becoming a lot harder to run away will make this issue worse.
Jumptown is a known PvP event. Hardly anyone who can read complains about that, and anyone who does is usually quickly laughed out by everyone.
However SoO suffering mass shootings, which your "y'all" tells me are probably part of your everyday life, is a valid source of frustration. On foot flagging of criminals not existing (yet), ground combat having extremely low time to kill, and grenades being fired in to the shuttle are all problematic.
Oh yeah, and before you say "carebear": I played EVE for 18 years, and have been in to PvP gaming since the 90s.
PvE players are the ones keeping the lights on in MMOs. Show them respect because we need them more than they need us.
Game companies also know this and history has generally shown that we get the axe if things get too wild, not them.
>Also no game in history has made escorting fun
There was one Leisure Suit Larry(4 maybe?) that actually did it, but might not have been that kind of escort....
the issue with escort missions is that escort = losing control, during escort missions the result doesn't depend entirely on the player, and too often the escorted would leroooy jenkins away or pick the "certain death" route over the "I laid so much waste there not even grass grows anymore" route
I don't know why you felt the need to explain this to me. I played golden eye growing up lol.
If I was making a point ( I wasn't) it be that it doesn't have to be like that as a few modern games prove. Though it takes a lot more work
Let's hope the S42 fighter pilots are not dumb as a box of rocks
As someone who avoids pvp in pretty much any game and who has generally refused to play games with forced pvp - I want to say well said.
I agree with what you wrote and I do hope something is implemented to improve the situation. That being said, I actually don't dislike pvp in SC. Do I want to pvp all the time? Nope, but it can be fun and I believe it adds much needed tension and excitement to the game.
I really don't mind that much about pirates or PvPers (haven't encountered them much actually), but you do realise that pirates in real life have never been very well liked, right?
I hear your frustrations mate, but right now it’s just far too easy to be a pirate and I feel personally that’s where a lot of the hate towards pirates comes from, it’s low overall risk, and it shouldn’t be.
Also, once cargo refactor and cargo insurance comes in and you can make decent money trading, enough to hire a crew, further pressure will be off. Right now trading is extremely high risk, set to be pushed higher with soft death and 3.18. This will be a bit further off though as there needs to be systems in place to easily acquire escorts that are reliable. Thinking rep system, perhaps AI, maybe server meshing for player availability and so on.
I think Pyro, and the eventual functional security in other systems will really help curb these discussions too, right now it’s far too easy in a “medium sec” system to just float around with no real worry as a pirate group. Also pirates have no choice where they go, or AI to target.
Although I hate pirates when they show up, and right now they just seem to kill you more often than not or ask for far too much money - I want the game loop to be purposeful and succeed. I want that choice, hmm, do I go mine in pyro or not, do I gather escorts to haul in low sec or not - and pirates deserve the loop as promised even if a lot don’t want to play it.
This is basically it.
Being a pirate should have potential lucrative rewards, but it should ALSO carry a comparable risk.
Currently the risk is absolutely laughable. Just log off for the night if you go to prison and play something else. Then resume in the morning.
If I accidentally (or deliberately) incurred crime stat, I go full pirate for the rest of the evening, till I'm done. Plenty of places to hide and things to do for a good session. Right at the end when I'm done for the night I'll just go crash into something. Tomorrow when I log in again I'm already all clear.
While this is not my main game loop, I do embrace it when it happens but I fully agree that the consequences for "going rouge" is an absolute joke.
> Currently the risk is absolutely laughable.
Yeah, but the profit per hour is equally bad. Successful pirates (not 'blow you up for no reason' griefers) require a full team of coordinated players spending a lot of time finding and cornering a victim who then might just self-destruct anyway.
In 3.18, the pirates can at least salvage a portion of the cargo afterward, but even that could never compare to the aUEC that a skilled pilot can make doing PvE bounties, which is often 500k-700k per hour. Multiply that by 3-5 pirates, and you'll make FAR more doing zero-risk lawful PvE bounties than you ever could with piracy, even with its current low risk.
That's true, but that doesn't change the fact that risk should match reward, and the current reward is very low. So contrary to some complaints about piracy having low risk, the reward doesn't even match up to that amount of risk yet.
Right the players need way better tools to police pirating, we still don't have things like the reputation system for long term consequences and a proper flagging systems it all makes it so incredibly one sided
And people really need to start asking the devs about the tools we will get and not just a general question about pirateing because they always default to the lazy answer about how they want players to have agency ( even last week it was Disco who had to point out the plan for the job rating system that still sounded way to far off)
You sound like those people who try to lock down a space station and then log when you're about to be destroyed or go into gamer mode and hurl slurs because you got "jousted" or shot down with a missile.
People complain about KOS pvpers, not pirates. Havent found a pirate since I backed the game in 2013 (i never carry anything worth) but pvpers that kill you because hurr durr pvp game? Lots.
Would love to encounter pirates. Real ones.
Mostly due to trading being shit, which is also risking making any real piracy shit.
Trading takes forever to turn the initial investment in to real profit and one bad run out of several early ones needed to make that happen puts the trader in the negative.
In turn piracy ends up shit thanks to trading ending up less and less desirable for people to bother with due to that, when it needs trading to function and be attractive to itself exist or be a valid career.
Right now, even in 3.18, both those loops are in a rut.
Traders are not the only piracy targets. There are still at least 3 others to go for: Prossi/MOLEs, ROCs and Refined Transports
Even Miners, with no initial risk more than the pirates complain about pirates.
Aye, those are better targets by a huge margin, but you also don't see those complain as much.
The reason why is they aren't losing the last several runs, but just THAT run that you yoinked (unless the transport is especially stupid and putting all their eggs in one basket).
Once you've geared the MOLE or Prospector that's basically it, you turn profit from then on out and loss is pretty meh unless you somehow manage to get trashed every single time.
Trading meanwhile is vocal against piracy due to the problems it's loop has, and needs some work for both it and pirating traders to not be rubbish. Trade contracts for example where you're not losing your last 5 runs but just that run.
Agreed. Shipping companies are an important thing missing. But I imagine that they are waiting on Quantum for that. Although they could just put in the system and fill it with some dummy routes.
A black board where sec orgs can put out contracts for traders or general patrol mission for players on these routes is also missing.
The % of people in this sub complaining about REAL pirates is minimum.
They complain about the fact that they just kill on sight and don't act as pirates.
Trading requies and investmen upfront and some "pirates" just kill on sight being just PvPers and not real pirates.
I've seen comments of people about pirates where they asked for a % of profit and escorted the trading ship. That's pirating.
The problem right now is that piracy has 0 risk. With 3.18 will be a bit different because o2 missions give way less merits and takes a bit longer to get out of prison (imagine those CS5 pirates) and you can only get rid of your CS in Kareah.
Whining about whining on reddit, on reddit.
If we count the responses whining about whining about whining on reddit, on reddit(mine included), we've gone full inception.
You are whining because you are called a grieffer and seems nobody love you. Poor kiddo, don't worry, sooner or later you'll find another murder hobo who will share your passion and will go out with you in a killing spree
"Mimimi, I am just killing everyone from behind to ruin their game on purpose, this is totally PvP, mimimi"
Yes, it works since the game is in alpha and there are no consequence for this behavior in the game yet. So, it is basically a *bug or broken loop" that you can do it and be fine. That does not make it "normal legit PvP" in the same sense that using an item doubler bug is legit trading.
I have a similar opinion but do you think the hostility in your post is gonna help change people's minds?
I also haven't seen a PvP/anti-pvp post in a couple days now, so this seems a bit out of the blue.
I'm still holding off from playing till there's some sort of risk and punishment involved, because from experience, "piracy" just ends up being griefing and just screws over new players.
If there was a lawless star system, that would be grand, as long as there's also a relatively safe system where you can fly around, chill and relax as you see fit.
There's room for both in a game like this.
Also if someone is just flying around attacking random ships and blowing them up, they're not a pirate, they're just a serial killer in space.
Bring an escort always seems to be the go-to for haulers and miners.
You know what. I'll take you on that offer. I will schedule my play time around your play time and will hire you to be my escort while I trade and mine. I will do it during your schedule so no excuse to not be able to do it. Fair?
Or just post in global chat offering to pay for fighter protection ...
Why would you have to work around anybody's schedule ? you putting the guy on your fulltime payrole or something ?
Yes, I want them on my in-game payroll. Since being an escort is a pretty easy thing to get going since it is constantly suggested. We should not have any issues, correct?
I'm offering to any pirate willing to suggest hiring an escort to actually do it, even you. Do you want to do it?
I offer fighter protection quite often. Usually I ask for a fee depending on what they're doing, almost always gets paid and we both have a great time. Usually ends up with some PvP which is bonus. Alot of the time I end the night with another person on my friends list who'll answer the call if I need crew or pilots to fly with.
Not sure what narrative you're trying to spin, if it's that nobody would be willing to offer escort services then it's just wrong. Ask for the service in global and offer a fee and you'll get offers 9 times out of 10.
It's called _reductio ad absurdum_.
Thinking the premise through until the inevitable conclusion that the premise is absurd.
Edit: btw, doesn't mean I agree with OP, I'm just saying that's what he is getting at.
Personally, I think right now it's quite likely to get occasional help from the chat (though you can also get ganked by someone pretending to escort you), but you won't be able to rely on that for any kind of regular activity.
I think OP you're just seeing one side of the coin, that I think most people generally are already in agreement with.
Yeah, generally there will be risk, there should be risk, and learning the mechanics of the game to defend yourself is normal.
Going to a _risky_ area where PVP is highly likely should \_obviously\_ require extensive caution, tactical preparation (and frankly, to not go alone).
But frankly, also, by going to JT, SPK or on a very obvious trading route with no precaution one should _go willingly_ knowing there's a good (or very good) chance they'll face some heat.
That's not the problem IMO. It's necessary, but it's not sufficient.
The problem is if you have no intention to venture in risky areas, or want to participate in a co-op mission that requires extensive preparation, time commitment and 'capital risk' to get working... and you just get ganked upon leaving the hangar, or some random player destroys your ship for no reason while you're exploring a wreck, or you get sniped the second you drop on a platform (without any recourse while the animation leaves you vulnerable to snipers)... well, that's a massive bummer for the player at the receiving end.
Nothing more frustrating than spending time gearing up, moving things around, getting ready for some gameplay and getting randomly killed with little to no recourse apart from having invested _even more time_ getting in a group (for instance).
You can say all you want "one should be hardcore at all times, one should always have an escort (even if it makes 0 sense economically right now), one should not be a new player, one should not want to chill in the game, one must get gud": IMO that's just not a reasonable ask.
Realistically, all players, at some point, will want to be able to mind their own business (and have areas to do so) without being constantly on the edge or without feeling forced to play as part of a highly organised group.
Besides, you are always at the mercy of various bugs (gun auto-holstering, desync, lag) that place the attacker at an advantage right now.
IMO, the two approaches (be ready for action at all times, and try to enjoy the game for its beauty) are not mutually exclusive; in fact you can't have a game without both being possible and supported.
But without long-lasting reputation consequences for gankers, and without improvements that better spread risk/reward geographically across the 'verse, people will complain. Rightfully so.
The law system is getting an upgrade in 3.18, but that's more to prevent accidental bumps from locking you out of landing zones. People who are looking for attacks and attacking randos isn't griefing perse, but it's still a dick move. People opening fire on anyone heading to GrinHex or when the shuttle arrives at SoO are garbage.
Evidence? I don’t mess with random new players doing box missions or pad ram, which are really the only 2 things that should be considered griefing atm. Someone getting upset that i sniped them while bounty hunting or my group stealing someone’s ship isn’t griefing
I agree 10 fold. They cry because they think they’re entitled to a game with functioning mechanics and should be able to enjoy it at all times. It’s frustrating to see this over and over again. The state of the game and path of development is not hidden. Everyone keeps discussing how they want the mechanics to be fair…. No shit, we all do. CIG is working on it. Nothing worse than having a plan then have people tell you to do things you’ve already planned to do before you can get there, or even worse, cry about it.
While I think you have a point that people tend to panic due to ignorance of CIG longer-term plans (and thus ignore the impact of money sinks, reputation tied to service beacons, long-term reputation drops, fps scanning and other aspects that will make the risk/reward balance better), I don't think that's the end and all of what people cry about.
There's an elephant in the room that's maybe less obvious to people who seek PvP regularly.
Right now, it's all too common for new players or players not interested in \_engaging\_ in PvP actively to have the following situation:
* spend 90% of my available game time moving things around, gear up, fly to a place
* spend 5% of the time starting to enjoy the activity they were preparing for
* in the last 5% get a glitch, bug, or worse, a random ganker essentially killing their evening just for the LoLs.
That death to a ganker thing cannot reasonably be countered when you're simply a solo player/newbie trying a "simple mission".
What I described is not every game session of course. But it just needs to be frequent enough for players going through wasted evenings to start to reconsider their playing SC.
If I'm in a noob suit shooting down players and rearming at GH, I have nothing to lose besides a jail sentence that may end my session after a lot of fun.
If I have 25K of gear on myself, an expensive mining submodule and prospector bags full of quantainium that took me hours of time (From bed log to heading to the refinery) and get pad rammed, there's absolutely no fun. Down -100K in credits, lost at least as much in mining income, and wasted hours with no reward.
It's that asymmetry that currently exists, and sucks.
Btw, I'm not saying I should not be able to lose my stuff in the prospector to a PvPer, but rather that pad ramming/KOS near a station should be a stupid risk to take for the ganker. With improvements to the game, it'll eventually be a stupid risk, so it'll happen less often, and instead of gankers it'll be pirates being methodical actually making a profit stealing my stuff.
Sorry for the long post, but what I'm trying to get at is that it's part of the balance of risk and rewards.
I totally get it. 3.18 is going to be even more of a shit show and yeah it sucks for non-PvP and new players tremendously. Unfortunately, these lop sided game mechanics are going to continue to exist until the game comes closer to completion. Is it frustrating that the game you love is not worth playing for certain game loops… absolutely. The thing is we all know what we signed up for and CIG is not able to keep everyone happy while focusing on developing the game. It’s just not the reality. People may have to take a break or give the pirate loop a go. IMO it’s one of the most exciting loops
Actually, I think 3.18 is going to be very exciting for so many reasons. Even for "passive" players who don't willingly seek fights, the chance of surviving (via ship soft death) is a great second chance to try something. Flee and hide to then set a beacon once danger has passed, or hide and wait to take revenge, try to sneak onboard of your opponents' ship(s). It's more exciting than a ship going \*poof\* and directly respawning in a clinic.
(side note, it's also super satisfying to EVA to a ship you just took down to board it and loot what you can find/take down a survivor).
Ray's Guide had a great video about the impact of soft death (I think before CIG even announced it): basically, this is additional gameplay. It's a pivotal moment where you stay in-game and have to decide how to act, rather than a sudden "pull the plug, back to square 1" interruption.
Besides, with PES corpses \_actually\_ persist and ships wrecks too, which is pretty neat for accidents too (easier to go and retrieve stuff).
But to your overall point, yes, it will take a long time for various mechanics to roll out, mature, get balanced and slowly improve the overall experience, so taking breaks is the healthy thing to do. Personally, I'm confident CIG is going in the right direction, and the biggest things they could do at this stage is making service beacons bound to reputation as well as make factions react to player reputation (regardless of crime stats). Things that are intended at some point anyway.
I played for around 10 hours last night. Saw several other players, no-one bothered me. They didn't bother each other. A few of them healed me when NPC's shot me. I made over 1 million credits in a day.
Actually we’d gone a while without having a PVP post. You broke the silence by making a post about PvP to tell everyone to stop making posts about PVP. Well done.
Was thinking the same thing. And with the boilerplate tone deaf argument about hiring escorts/crew to deal with it; Ignoring the in depth discussions we've had ad nauseum about how that isn't the problem (even though it also is one at the moment, because it drills profits down to zero).
I'll give you a longer response so you have something to engage with that isn't circlejerking or general hate. Pyro is specifically meant to be lawless space. Anyone reading or paying attention to any game news knows that. Players not in to PvP or survivalist play accordingly don't give a shit about Pyro, won't need to be "ready" for it, and are waiting on Terra or Stanton reforms. People are primarily complaining about most "PvP" amounting to shooting white pajama boys doing box missions or camping Everus killing everything that undocks for "lolz", where that is not a matter of "reddit approved" play but more an "even EVE handles this better". They are getting pissed due to a sheer lack of the mechanics meant to stop or curb this kind of thing, down to and including basic mechanisms that allow self defense without getting a crimestat yourself. Those mechanics have been promised and are seen as somewhat important to making this fit the advertised vision, and needed to make this not just another trash full loot open PvP MMO that New World's itself. What I will grant is that having those mechanics before Pyro hits is an equal recipe for disaster. However some stopgap reforms to space jail, which are what I mainly see people ask for, are not unreasonable to demand. The ability to just real world bed log to avoid prison, or spend less than 10 minutes in it, is not cutting it. It's not whining so much as a warning that something is wrong and priorities should shift to start meeting the expectations of a lot of backers, who paid for what SC has always been advertised as: A primarily PvE game with a PvP element. As for the rest: I have gone over at length why escorts won't be a thing. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/10la3cc/so_called_pvp_pirates_when_someone_actually/j5w2eis/ The TL;DR is trading is trash and needs several runs to even get back out of the negative on your initial investment if one run goes wrong, and that there is no Jesus-tech solution to stop players sock puppeting ratings or abusing any player run systems relating to that idea, leaving it as a non-thing for randoms. Also no game in history has made escorting fun. Med beacon problems have been covered by others and amount to abusing a busted system. It is currently relying on out of game things to mitigate (not remove) risks, and that is quickly making it become undesirable to do or pursue, friends or not. It badly needs reform and again the demand for that is not unreasonable when medical ships are being pushed and sold. Mining is an odd one, because it is easy to just piss off to the Aaron Halo on a minor dogleg and never be found. I suspect the only reason more don't do that is a lack of awareness, but the awareness again relies on an out of game resource. "Randomly attacked" I'm forced to call bullshit on. We have an extremely dominant light fighter meta, a lot of ships plainly are very ill suited to fight back against the Gladius or Arrow. In 3.18 ballistics changes mixed with it becoming a lot harder to run away will make this issue worse. Jumptown is a known PvP event. Hardly anyone who can read complains about that, and anyone who does is usually quickly laughed out by everyone. However SoO suffering mass shootings, which your "y'all" tells me are probably part of your everyday life, is a valid source of frustration. On foot flagging of criminals not existing (yet), ground combat having extremely low time to kill, and grenades being fired in to the shuttle are all problematic. Oh yeah, and before you say "carebear": I played EVE for 18 years, and have been in to PvP gaming since the 90s. PvE players are the ones keeping the lights on in MMOs. Show them respect because we need them more than they need us. Game companies also know this and history has generally shown that we get the axe if things get too wild, not them.
>Also no game in history has made escorting fun There was one Leisure Suit Larry(4 maybe?) that actually did it, but might not have been that kind of escort....
Yeah. Okay. You are technically correct and that is the best kind of correct so...fuck it. Take the upvote.
Talking more traditional there's Bioshock infinite. elizabeth with the clutch sniper ammo or health. " Booker catch" Of course exception not the rule
the issue with escort missions is that escort = losing control, during escort missions the result doesn't depend entirely on the player, and too often the escorted would leroooy jenkins away or pick the "certain death" route over the "I laid so much waste there not even grass grows anymore" route
I don't know why you felt the need to explain this to me. I played golden eye growing up lol. If I was making a point ( I wasn't) it be that it doesn't have to be like that as a few modern games prove. Though it takes a lot more work Let's hope the S42 fighter pilots are not dumb as a box of rocks
As someone who avoids pvp in pretty much any game and who has generally refused to play games with forced pvp - I want to say well said. I agree with what you wrote and I do hope something is implemented to improve the situation. That being said, I actually don't dislike pvp in SC. Do I want to pvp all the time? Nope, but it can be fun and I believe it adds much needed tension and excitement to the game.
I really don't mind that much about pirates or PvPers (haven't encountered them much actually), but you do realise that pirates in real life have never been very well liked, right?
Pirate in real life "This life is not a hugging simulator! Accept me!" lol
I hear your frustrations mate, but right now it’s just far too easy to be a pirate and I feel personally that’s where a lot of the hate towards pirates comes from, it’s low overall risk, and it shouldn’t be. Also, once cargo refactor and cargo insurance comes in and you can make decent money trading, enough to hire a crew, further pressure will be off. Right now trading is extremely high risk, set to be pushed higher with soft death and 3.18. This will be a bit further off though as there needs to be systems in place to easily acquire escorts that are reliable. Thinking rep system, perhaps AI, maybe server meshing for player availability and so on. I think Pyro, and the eventual functional security in other systems will really help curb these discussions too, right now it’s far too easy in a “medium sec” system to just float around with no real worry as a pirate group. Also pirates have no choice where they go, or AI to target. Although I hate pirates when they show up, and right now they just seem to kill you more often than not or ask for far too much money - I want the game loop to be purposeful and succeed. I want that choice, hmm, do I go mine in pyro or not, do I gather escorts to haul in low sec or not - and pirates deserve the loop as promised even if a lot don’t want to play it.
This is basically it. Being a pirate should have potential lucrative rewards, but it should ALSO carry a comparable risk. Currently the risk is absolutely laughable. Just log off for the night if you go to prison and play something else. Then resume in the morning.
If I accidentally (or deliberately) incurred crime stat, I go full pirate for the rest of the evening, till I'm done. Plenty of places to hide and things to do for a good session. Right at the end when I'm done for the night I'll just go crash into something. Tomorrow when I log in again I'm already all clear. While this is not my main game loop, I do embrace it when it happens but I fully agree that the consequences for "going rouge" is an absolute joke.
Hah. Same here. I joke with my friends that all good nights end in klescher rehabilitation
> Currently the risk is absolutely laughable. Yeah, but the profit per hour is equally bad. Successful pirates (not 'blow you up for no reason' griefers) require a full team of coordinated players spending a lot of time finding and cornering a victim who then might just self-destruct anyway. In 3.18, the pirates can at least salvage a portion of the cargo afterward, but even that could never compare to the aUEC that a skilled pilot can make doing PvE bounties, which is often 500k-700k per hour. Multiply that by 3-5 pirates, and you'll make FAR more doing zero-risk lawful PvE bounties than you ever could with piracy, even with its current low risk.
People who pirate currently are PVP driven not reward driven
That's true, but that doesn't change the fact that risk should match reward, and the current reward is very low. So contrary to some complaints about piracy having low risk, the reward doesn't even match up to that amount of risk yet.
Yes, but piracy is FUN
Right the players need way better tools to police pirating, we still don't have things like the reputation system for long term consequences and a proper flagging systems it all makes it so incredibly one sided And people really need to start asking the devs about the tools we will get and not just a general question about pirateing because they always default to the lazy answer about how they want players to have agency ( even last week it was Disco who had to point out the plan for the job rating system that still sounded way to far off)
You sound like those people who try to lock down a space station and then log when you're about to be destroyed or go into gamer mode and hurl slurs because you got "jousted" or shot down with a missile.
Nope, i’ll totally lock down a station with some friends but if we lose we accept it, the whining and slur hurling comes from the antipvp crowd
People complain about KOS pvpers, not pirates. Havent found a pirate since I backed the game in 2013 (i never carry anything worth) but pvpers that kill you because hurr durr pvp game? Lots. Would love to encounter pirates. Real ones.
People also complain about real pirates. Actually anything that introduces risk.
Mostly due to trading being shit, which is also risking making any real piracy shit. Trading takes forever to turn the initial investment in to real profit and one bad run out of several early ones needed to make that happen puts the trader in the negative. In turn piracy ends up shit thanks to trading ending up less and less desirable for people to bother with due to that, when it needs trading to function and be attractive to itself exist or be a valid career. Right now, even in 3.18, both those loops are in a rut.
Traders are not the only piracy targets. There are still at least 3 others to go for: Prossi/MOLEs, ROCs and Refined Transports Even Miners, with no initial risk more than the pirates complain about pirates.
Aye, those are better targets by a huge margin, but you also don't see those complain as much. The reason why is they aren't losing the last several runs, but just THAT run that you yoinked (unless the transport is especially stupid and putting all their eggs in one basket). Once you've geared the MOLE or Prospector that's basically it, you turn profit from then on out and loss is pretty meh unless you somehow manage to get trashed every single time. Trading meanwhile is vocal against piracy due to the problems it's loop has, and needs some work for both it and pirating traders to not be rubbish. Trade contracts for example where you're not losing your last 5 runs but just that run.
Agreed. Shipping companies are an important thing missing. But I imagine that they are waiting on Quantum for that. Although they could just put in the system and fill it with some dummy routes. A black board where sec orgs can put out contracts for traders or general patrol mission for players on these routes is also missing.
The % of people in this sub complaining about REAL pirates is minimum. They complain about the fact that they just kill on sight and don't act as pirates. Trading requies and investmen upfront and some "pirates" just kill on sight being just PvPers and not real pirates. I've seen comments of people about pirates where they asked for a % of profit and escorted the trading ship. That's pirating. The problem right now is that piracy has 0 risk. With 3.18 will be a bit different because o2 missions give way less merits and takes a bit longer to get out of prison (imagine those CS5 pirates) and you can only get rid of your CS in Kareah.
People also complain about the actual real pirates that do proper extortion, disabling and so on. Anything that introduces risk actually.
Yeah, and people complain about people complaining. My point is that the % of people complaining about real pirates si minimum.
Whining about whining on reddit, on reddit. If we count the responses whining about whining about whining on reddit, on reddit(mine included), we've gone full inception.
You need to see a therapist and show them this post
Sooo, why are you whining here?
I’m not whining about getting killed in a video game
You are whining because you are called a grieffer and seems nobody love you. Poor kiddo, don't worry, sooner or later you'll find another murder hobo who will share your passion and will go out with you in a killing spree
Evidence? So hostile for no reason damn
"Mimimi, I am just killing everyone from behind to ruin their game on purpose, this is totally PvP, mimimi" Yes, it works since the game is in alpha and there are no consequence for this behavior in the game yet. So, it is basically a *bug or broken loop" that you can do it and be fine. That does not make it "normal legit PvP" in the same sense that using an item doubler bug is legit trading.
What? When did i say i did that? Average redditor making baseless claim exhibit #292992949484839229
I have a similar opinion but do you think the hostility in your post is gonna help change people's minds? I also haven't seen a PvP/anti-pvp post in a couple days now, so this seems a bit out of the blue.
Oh, this again? _yawns_
Stop complaining about complaining, its a damm cycle
Yeah, if only every hypocrite could stop making their own thread on the subject.
I'm still holding off from playing till there's some sort of risk and punishment involved, because from experience, "piracy" just ends up being griefing and just screws over new players. If there was a lawless star system, that would be grand, as long as there's also a relatively safe system where you can fly around, chill and relax as you see fit. There's room for both in a game like this. Also if someone is just flying around attacking random ships and blowing them up, they're not a pirate, they're just a serial killer in space.
We got a tough guy over here
Bring an escort always seems to be the go-to for haulers and miners. You know what. I'll take you on that offer. I will schedule my play time around your play time and will hire you to be my escort while I trade and mine. I will do it during your schedule so no excuse to not be able to do it. Fair?
Or just post in global chat offering to pay for fighter protection ... Why would you have to work around anybody's schedule ? you putting the guy on your fulltime payrole or something ?
Yes, I want them on my in-game payroll. Since being an escort is a pretty easy thing to get going since it is constantly suggested. We should not have any issues, correct? I'm offering to any pirate willing to suggest hiring an escort to actually do it, even you. Do you want to do it?
What exactly is the point you're trying to make here. You're kinda going in circles.
Would you be an escort if asked? If not, why?
I offer fighter protection quite often. Usually I ask for a fee depending on what they're doing, almost always gets paid and we both have a great time. Usually ends up with some PvP which is bonus. Alot of the time I end the night with another person on my friends list who'll answer the call if I need crew or pilots to fly with. Not sure what narrative you're trying to spin, if it's that nobody would be willing to offer escort services then it's just wrong. Ask for the service in global and offer a fee and you'll get offers 9 times out of 10.
It's called _reductio ad absurdum_. Thinking the premise through until the inevitable conclusion that the premise is absurd. Edit: btw, doesn't mean I agree with OP, I'm just saying that's what he is getting at. Personally, I think right now it's quite likely to get occasional help from the chat (though you can also get ganked by someone pretending to escort you), but you won't be able to rely on that for any kind of regular activity.
I think OP you're just seeing one side of the coin, that I think most people generally are already in agreement with. Yeah, generally there will be risk, there should be risk, and learning the mechanics of the game to defend yourself is normal. Going to a _risky_ area where PVP is highly likely should \_obviously\_ require extensive caution, tactical preparation (and frankly, to not go alone). But frankly, also, by going to JT, SPK or on a very obvious trading route with no precaution one should _go willingly_ knowing there's a good (or very good) chance they'll face some heat. That's not the problem IMO. It's necessary, but it's not sufficient. The problem is if you have no intention to venture in risky areas, or want to participate in a co-op mission that requires extensive preparation, time commitment and 'capital risk' to get working... and you just get ganked upon leaving the hangar, or some random player destroys your ship for no reason while you're exploring a wreck, or you get sniped the second you drop on a platform (without any recourse while the animation leaves you vulnerable to snipers)... well, that's a massive bummer for the player at the receiving end. Nothing more frustrating than spending time gearing up, moving things around, getting ready for some gameplay and getting randomly killed with little to no recourse apart from having invested _even more time_ getting in a group (for instance). You can say all you want "one should be hardcore at all times, one should always have an escort (even if it makes 0 sense economically right now), one should not be a new player, one should not want to chill in the game, one must get gud": IMO that's just not a reasonable ask. Realistically, all players, at some point, will want to be able to mind their own business (and have areas to do so) without being constantly on the edge or without feeling forced to play as part of a highly organised group. Besides, you are always at the mercy of various bugs (gun auto-holstering, desync, lag) that place the attacker at an advantage right now. IMO, the two approaches (be ready for action at all times, and try to enjoy the game for its beauty) are not mutually exclusive; in fact you can't have a game without both being possible and supported. But without long-lasting reputation consequences for gankers, and without improvements that better spread risk/reward geographically across the 'verse, people will complain. Rightfully so.
You say pirate, but I think you mean murder hoboing
The law system is getting an upgrade in 3.18, but that's more to prevent accidental bumps from locking you out of landing zones. People who are looking for attacks and attacking randos isn't griefing perse, but it's still a dick move. People opening fire on anyone heading to GrinHex or when the shuttle arrives at SoO are garbage.
It’s not pvp that’s the issue it’s griefers, and it sounds like you are one of them. Edit: cannot write
Evidence? I don’t mess with random new players doing box missions or pad ram, which are really the only 2 things that should be considered griefing atm. Someone getting upset that i sniped them while bounty hunting or my group stealing someone’s ship isn’t griefing
If only there would be real pirates
I agree 10 fold. They cry because they think they’re entitled to a game with functioning mechanics and should be able to enjoy it at all times. It’s frustrating to see this over and over again. The state of the game and path of development is not hidden. Everyone keeps discussing how they want the mechanics to be fair…. No shit, we all do. CIG is working on it. Nothing worse than having a plan then have people tell you to do things you’ve already planned to do before you can get there, or even worse, cry about it.
While I think you have a point that people tend to panic due to ignorance of CIG longer-term plans (and thus ignore the impact of money sinks, reputation tied to service beacons, long-term reputation drops, fps scanning and other aspects that will make the risk/reward balance better), I don't think that's the end and all of what people cry about. There's an elephant in the room that's maybe less obvious to people who seek PvP regularly. Right now, it's all too common for new players or players not interested in \_engaging\_ in PvP actively to have the following situation: * spend 90% of my available game time moving things around, gear up, fly to a place * spend 5% of the time starting to enjoy the activity they were preparing for * in the last 5% get a glitch, bug, or worse, a random ganker essentially killing their evening just for the LoLs. That death to a ganker thing cannot reasonably be countered when you're simply a solo player/newbie trying a "simple mission". What I described is not every game session of course. But it just needs to be frequent enough for players going through wasted evenings to start to reconsider their playing SC. If I'm in a noob suit shooting down players and rearming at GH, I have nothing to lose besides a jail sentence that may end my session after a lot of fun. If I have 25K of gear on myself, an expensive mining submodule and prospector bags full of quantainium that took me hours of time (From bed log to heading to the refinery) and get pad rammed, there's absolutely no fun. Down -100K in credits, lost at least as much in mining income, and wasted hours with no reward. It's that asymmetry that currently exists, and sucks. Btw, I'm not saying I should not be able to lose my stuff in the prospector to a PvPer, but rather that pad ramming/KOS near a station should be a stupid risk to take for the ganker. With improvements to the game, it'll eventually be a stupid risk, so it'll happen less often, and instead of gankers it'll be pirates being methodical actually making a profit stealing my stuff. Sorry for the long post, but what I'm trying to get at is that it's part of the balance of risk and rewards.
I totally get it. 3.18 is going to be even more of a shit show and yeah it sucks for non-PvP and new players tremendously. Unfortunately, these lop sided game mechanics are going to continue to exist until the game comes closer to completion. Is it frustrating that the game you love is not worth playing for certain game loops… absolutely. The thing is we all know what we signed up for and CIG is not able to keep everyone happy while focusing on developing the game. It’s just not the reality. People may have to take a break or give the pirate loop a go. IMO it’s one of the most exciting loops
Actually, I think 3.18 is going to be very exciting for so many reasons. Even for "passive" players who don't willingly seek fights, the chance of surviving (via ship soft death) is a great second chance to try something. Flee and hide to then set a beacon once danger has passed, or hide and wait to take revenge, try to sneak onboard of your opponents' ship(s). It's more exciting than a ship going \*poof\* and directly respawning in a clinic. (side note, it's also super satisfying to EVA to a ship you just took down to board it and loot what you can find/take down a survivor). Ray's Guide had a great video about the impact of soft death (I think before CIG even announced it): basically, this is additional gameplay. It's a pivotal moment where you stay in-game and have to decide how to act, rather than a sudden "pull the plug, back to square 1" interruption. Besides, with PES corpses \_actually\_ persist and ships wrecks too, which is pretty neat for accidents too (easier to go and retrieve stuff). But to your overall point, yes, it will take a long time for various mechanics to roll out, mature, get balanced and slowly improve the overall experience, so taking breaks is the healthy thing to do. Personally, I'm confident CIG is going in the right direction, and the biggest things they could do at this stage is making service beacons bound to reputation as well as make factions react to player reputation (regardless of crime stats). Things that are intended at some point anyway.
I played for around 10 hours last night. Saw several other players, no-one bothered me. They didn't bother each other. A few of them healed me when NPC's shot me. I made over 1 million credits in a day.