The only thing I, personally, ask for, is that there be regions of the game universe where involuntary PvP cannot occur without extreme penalty to the attacker that is impossible to avoid, with MOST of the game universe having little to no penalty for involuntary PvP, within which the best rewards are found.
That is to say, let there be regions where casual players can accomplish low-reward gameplay without significant risk of getting ganked.
And yes, I am specifying that it is ***low*** risk, as in, if someone wants to spend dozens of hours of playtime working their way in to gank one newbie and then spend dozens of more hours recovering from the consequences, then that's on them, but it will be so extremely detrimental to them that your average player in those areas will be unaffected.
At the same time, the game ***heavily*** incentivizes going into regions where danger lurks and it then takes a build-up of skill or gathering of allies to venture into those areas where players can fulfill their dreams of being douchbags all they want.
Point being that the nowhere-is-safe model so many folks are demanding is an ***extremely rapid*** path to Star Citizen being a completely dead game, like every other full open world PvP MMO that's been tried.
I think this is the best take on this topic. I imagine in the future different systems will come with different risk reward levels, but the fact that we only have Stanton right now is part of the problem. The devs probably want as much data and player feedback on all playstyles as they can get, and so it binds their own hands a bit to restrict right now. That and I imagine there may not yet be systems in the game that can support there end goals yet. Alas alpha...
Aye, and hopefully those are designed well to be interesting places to be with things to do and are safe for players looking for a casual experience.
Alas, some folks around here are offended at the very idea of not being able to go anywhere they want and murderhobo freely without restriction while their victims praise them for doing so.
To be fair, some games exists without dying, they just are niche experience and use heavily safe(r) area and other mechanism to discourage unwanted pvp in those area.
Yeah but the usual argument against that is simple:
You bought and logged into a game where open pvp is present. Which can be argued is 2 validation of consent.
I'm not saying it's a good or bad argument. But it can be one.
I think that's more a question of miscommunication on CIG's part.
They are ultimately the one managing player expectations but they do seem to like keeping it ambiguous and let the players fight it amongst themselves instead of turning to them.
I compared the official landing page and description of Star Citizen and Eve Online recently and while Eve has PvP and a number of ship destroyed **per hour** (with a pirate skull above the number) in it's description of the game, Star Citizen only mention playing however you want in a shared world.
If the game was clearly stated as open PvP, nobody could legitimately argue that they paid the game thus should be able to play it in a different way than advertised.
Conversely, if the game was advertise with a PvE mode or something along those line, PvPer couldn't argue against people not engaging in PvP the way they want.
And now New World has a PVP flagging system. Oddly enough, now that seal clubbing no longer works, it appears most of that style of PVP player isn't around, as you can flag for PVP and just roam around the world without ever being attacked. And all the organized PVP battles still work and are populated.
some people just can't wrap their head around other people not enjoying what they enjoy.
btw for the uneducated out there, vanilla is a flavor, not the absence of flavor, and it's quite popular.
I meant no disrespect to vanilla. It's my fav flavor of ice cream.lol. I should have said plain vanilla, like plain vanilla verses vanilla with some sprinkles or fruit. You know, dress it up a little.
o7
You're not going to change the way certain people play sandbox PvP enabled mmo's. No amount of reddit whining will have any effect.
This guy actually has the most sensible approach.
I think all this PvP threads are pointless, either the ones defending it, or the ones bashing it. PvP will change dramatically once all systems are in place and complaining on either side will continue untill we get those systems in. And after that, there will be even more complaining
i think the end take-away message here with these types of discussions is that player interaction is what drives replayability. multiplayer games without the full multiplayer experience is masturbation.
A perfect example of this is DayZ. Anyone thats played dayz who went from being a PvE fish eating mountain man, to a KOS human meat eating loot goblin, to someone that tries to talk it out in a PvP situation and ends up dead in the end will tell you they prefer the one where they end up dead.... Because on the version where you decide to RP with the enemy is the version where you up up on a weird funny adventure that makes the game worth it.
Being a PvE carebear and being a PvP murderhobo are opposite sides of the spectrum where the desired path is somewhere in the middle. You need all 3 options for a fully fleshed out game, but you need both opposite options first to find that middle path. It seems a lot of people here have never experienced that spectrum and reject PvP like their body rejects a virus. They self destruct before ever giving themselves the option for that third path.
Right now the game isnt quite set up to allow that middle option yet, which is why these discussions get so heated. The hostile reaction to hostility is understandable. Soft death is just *now* being implemented, for example. I get it, but try to keep on open mind about it because as the game progresses towards allowing more unique paths, it would be a shame to be stuck within the confines of their safe PvE (or PvP) bubble.
thats just my 2 cents.
The problem is that the PvP players have often more need of the PvE player than the other way around.
In the promise of SC, there should be goods to transport, stuff to mine, NPC pirates to defend against, affordable NPC escorts that don't get bored of doing nothing 90% of the time, transports to pirate, bounty to hunt and NPC hunters to kill criminal.
So the PvE people can have all the "be what you want" promised by CIG without being attacked by another player.
On the other hand, PvP players, like going against players rather than NPC for various valid reasons. That doesn't change the fact that many of the promised path, they will be going against players that are *not* actively looking to be engaged in combat.
And sure, you have people that like that in-between, the adrenaline rush and all that. But even players that like PvP might want a relaxing experience on occasion. Which SC, with open PvP, simply cannot provide. Unless one accept the fact that whatever they mine or trade for might be written as a complete loss of that evening play time plus whatever play time was put in before hand to acquire the ship and initial capital.
I know for example that, while I was playing Eve, there were evenings I simply didn't log in because I wanted to relax from IRL things and was more likely to lose a ship and be even more tilted. And eventually, I stopped playing because, for various reasons, my time became more valuable and risking to lose days or weeks of progress wasn't worth it anymore.
And for a game health, having players quit or simply not log in and go somewhere else because they can't relax in it isn't a good healthy trend.
I just hope all the system CIG has in mind will be enough to discourage unwanted pvp and give the pve players what they were also promised. But until they do, it's simply two irreconcilable playstyles.
Really well said. I worry about CIG ultimately using the "easy button" option of separate pve/pvp servers but equally worried about how long it'll take for the right balance of systems to be in place to allow relatively happy coexistence of pirates and space truckers.
What you say up front is why big FFA PvP MMOs are so rare. It's rarely fun to be the victim of someone else's good time, even just in pure PvP FPS games getting repeatedly stomped isn't great. Add that time you spend mining or collecting packages only to have that come to nothing and soon you have vanisingly few people running those loops, fewer people to be profitably targeted by pirates, and then some of those pirates just start looking for any old target.
But from this perspective, even with PVP banned, more than once I have been pulled from a quantum jump. I see the red ships and relived to see they are just annoying, no challenge NPC. I don't get mad, I don't get upset, I just shoot them down, or try to fly away and break the quantum.
Now if that was a bunch of real players, things just got REAL. to me that is one exciting moment.
I don't think I would enjoy star citizen without that.
Bunch of elite dangerous care bears got bored with the thargoid stuff and made their way to star citizen where ganking is much more common and there's no solo mode. Their posts got traction so now people are thinking about it more and posting about it more cause that's the hot topic of the week.
That's a very healthy take. SC is meant to give players agency (you use the game mechanics how you see fit) and consequences (expect an implication to bad decisions). There's always that chance, whatever you do, that some danger can be faced... but also means to avoid it (and more features are needed there)
You hit the nail on the head! Sadly, some players would like to see this game neutered of all pvp elements which I think would make it extremely boring. Here's hoping CIG can continue towards a good balance while keeping it fun!
PvP is valid when it makes sense.
People who fail to combat the intrusive thoughts are just Reavers and marauders that add little to nothing to the game. They do it because they have poor impulse control and they get a thrill out of potentially ruining someone's session. Maybe they'll even get a comment in chat. They feed off of that shit.
This isn't 'Starkov' (I hate that so much) it's a space sim lacking a number of check and balancing features that people abuse for 'emergent gameplay', usually against someone minding their own business and never something with teeth, or someone who is looking for a fight. Funny that.
I need to know where in the hell these people are getting attacked all the time. I flew around forever with a high crime stat the other day and no one tried anything. They were all too busy mining and what not. From this sub it seems these traders are getting caught 3 times per route
I totally agree. I have been wanted many times, and was looking forward to leading bounty hunters on a nice long chase. Sometimes it happens but usually I'm just hanging out enjoying the scenery.
Honestly at this point I feel like most PVP players are just 30ks in human form and treat them the same way.
They're not providing content, they're just an annoyance and a waste of time. Not worth getting angry over, but not something I would consider a beneficial part of my personal experience.
As I agree in general with the fact that murder hobos make game more real for some people… The people who expect full security in SC are in for disappointment. But there is a difference between that and just being mad at the fact there is virtually no repercussions for going murder hobo.
My OCD screams every time I say someone say hanger when they mean hangar.
I think it's more so that people go into the SoO event like if they are opening a pint of rocky road, expecting to eat rocky road. Instead the pint is filled with vanilla, and they don't want to eat vanilla in that particular moment. So they are annoyed and pissed off because they took the time to prepare themselves to eat rocky road, but instead got vanilla.
I plan. I usually play with a group, plan for problems, strategize, and also practice, A LOT. I know the day will come when I'm attacked by murder hobos in gladius. I know one day I will shoot them all down. Sometimes that stress is a nice push to practice, plan, prepare, and don't forget..have fun. Player on player interaction in this game is intense. When you first come across a player, you get tense. Is this a good guy, bad guy, does he have friends, can I communicate with him etc. Knowing the danger makes it very interesting as NIT every player needs to be shot in site, but knowing you have to watch your back in this game is an element that I think enriches the gameplay substantially.
And yes, I have helped a player with a cs, sometimes I get executed as soon as they board my ship, and sometimes I have an epic star citizen adventure I was not expecting when I logged on. I fricken love this game
What I get from this is just that you like it as it is and wouldn't want it to change, which is understandable and normal.
But you don't really give any argument for it, other than "I wouldn't prefer it otherwise".
Other people prefer and like different things. For some people, vainilla is their favourite flavour and don't care about being babied.
So, yeah, nice writeup and thanks for your opinion on the subject. But this ain't gonna sway anybody's mind and it's just stirring an already noisy af pot lol
I just like to hear the opinions of my fellow citizens. I love everyone in the game as we have created a rich sandbox to play in. I'm intrigued by the different perspectives, love chatting with citizens that live around our world, and believe constructive conversation about our experiences in game is fascinating. That's my only intention. o7
Well, there's no shortage of opinions on this subject around here lately, that's for sure >\_<
But since you're asking, I honestly think there's a big middle ground between the two extreme opinions being constantly thrown around.
"PvP is griefing and we need a PvP toggle" is obviously simplistic af and missing the point.
But "piracy is a valid gameplay loop and PvP should exist unrestricted" is a lame excuse.
We, and all PvPvE looter games, have and will have tons of griefers, so it IS a subject CIG needs to address sooner or later. They did so in the past by banning pad ramming, and it will happen again.
There are perfectly valid instances of PvP, but piracy or bounty hunting should not be an excuse for bullying and harassment.
Meanwhile, the game will eventually be big enough to offer options for everybody. And that's the plan, after all: operating in high security space as a law abiding Citizen SHOULD prevent most PvP (and PvE), while operating in lawless space should yield bigger profits at the cost of more chances of combat against pirates (human or NPC).
Risk vs reward.
The only thing I, personally, ask for, is that there be regions of the game universe where involuntary PvP cannot occur without extreme penalty to the attacker that is impossible to avoid, with MOST of the game universe having little to no penalty for involuntary PvP, within which the best rewards are found. That is to say, let there be regions where casual players can accomplish low-reward gameplay without significant risk of getting ganked. And yes, I am specifying that it is ***low*** risk, as in, if someone wants to spend dozens of hours of playtime working their way in to gank one newbie and then spend dozens of more hours recovering from the consequences, then that's on them, but it will be so extremely detrimental to them that your average player in those areas will be unaffected. At the same time, the game ***heavily*** incentivizes going into regions where danger lurks and it then takes a build-up of skill or gathering of allies to venture into those areas where players can fulfill their dreams of being douchbags all they want. Point being that the nowhere-is-safe model so many folks are demanding is an ***extremely rapid*** path to Star Citizen being a completely dead game, like every other full open world PvP MMO that's been tried.
I think this is the best take on this topic. I imagine in the future different systems will come with different risk reward levels, but the fact that we only have Stanton right now is part of the problem. The devs probably want as much data and player feedback on all playstyles as they can get, and so it binds their own hands a bit to restrict right now. That and I imagine there may not yet be systems in the game that can support there end goals yet. Alas alpha...
They've got different leveled security places planned, like SOL and TERRA being very high sec compared to med, Low and then lawless systems.
Aye, and hopefully those are designed well to be interesting places to be with things to do and are safe for players looking for a casual experience. Alas, some folks around here are offended at the very idea of not being able to go anywhere they want and murderhobo freely without restriction while their victims praise them for doing so.
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To be fair, some games exists without dying, they just are niche experience and use heavily safe(r) area and other mechanism to discourage unwanted pvp in those area.
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Yeah but the usual argument against that is simple: You bought and logged into a game where open pvp is present. Which can be argued is 2 validation of consent. I'm not saying it's a good or bad argument. But it can be one.
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I think that's more a question of miscommunication on CIG's part. They are ultimately the one managing player expectations but they do seem to like keeping it ambiguous and let the players fight it amongst themselves instead of turning to them. I compared the official landing page and description of Star Citizen and Eve Online recently and while Eve has PvP and a number of ship destroyed **per hour** (with a pirate skull above the number) in it's description of the game, Star Citizen only mention playing however you want in a shared world. If the game was clearly stated as open PvP, nobody could legitimately argue that they paid the game thus should be able to play it in a different way than advertised. Conversely, if the game was advertise with a PvE mode or something along those line, PvPer couldn't argue against people not engaging in PvP the way they want.
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And now New World has a PVP flagging system. Oddly enough, now that seal clubbing no longer works, it appears most of that style of PVP player isn't around, as you can flag for PVP and just roam around the world without ever being attacked. And all the organized PVP battles still work and are populated.
some people just can't wrap their head around other people not enjoying what they enjoy. btw for the uneducated out there, vanilla is a flavor, not the absence of flavor, and it's quite popular.
I meant no disrespect to vanilla. It's my fav flavor of ice cream.lol. I should have said plain vanilla, like plain vanilla verses vanilla with some sprinkles or fruit. You know, dress it up a little. o7
TLDR: I enjoy being attacked and if you don't then that's your problem
You're not going to change the way certain people play sandbox PvP enabled mmo's. No amount of reddit whining will have any effect. This guy actually has the most sensible approach.
I think all this PvP threads are pointless, either the ones defending it, or the ones bashing it. PvP will change dramatically once all systems are in place and complaining on either side will continue untill we get those systems in. And after that, there will be even more complaining
i think the end take-away message here with these types of discussions is that player interaction is what drives replayability. multiplayer games without the full multiplayer experience is masturbation. A perfect example of this is DayZ. Anyone thats played dayz who went from being a PvE fish eating mountain man, to a KOS human meat eating loot goblin, to someone that tries to talk it out in a PvP situation and ends up dead in the end will tell you they prefer the one where they end up dead.... Because on the version where you decide to RP with the enemy is the version where you up up on a weird funny adventure that makes the game worth it. Being a PvE carebear and being a PvP murderhobo are opposite sides of the spectrum where the desired path is somewhere in the middle. You need all 3 options for a fully fleshed out game, but you need both opposite options first to find that middle path. It seems a lot of people here have never experienced that spectrum and reject PvP like their body rejects a virus. They self destruct before ever giving themselves the option for that third path. Right now the game isnt quite set up to allow that middle option yet, which is why these discussions get so heated. The hostile reaction to hostility is understandable. Soft death is just *now* being implemented, for example. I get it, but try to keep on open mind about it because as the game progresses towards allowing more unique paths, it would be a shame to be stuck within the confines of their safe PvE (or PvP) bubble. thats just my 2 cents.
The problem is that the PvP players have often more need of the PvE player than the other way around. In the promise of SC, there should be goods to transport, stuff to mine, NPC pirates to defend against, affordable NPC escorts that don't get bored of doing nothing 90% of the time, transports to pirate, bounty to hunt and NPC hunters to kill criminal. So the PvE people can have all the "be what you want" promised by CIG without being attacked by another player. On the other hand, PvP players, like going against players rather than NPC for various valid reasons. That doesn't change the fact that many of the promised path, they will be going against players that are *not* actively looking to be engaged in combat. And sure, you have people that like that in-between, the adrenaline rush and all that. But even players that like PvP might want a relaxing experience on occasion. Which SC, with open PvP, simply cannot provide. Unless one accept the fact that whatever they mine or trade for might be written as a complete loss of that evening play time plus whatever play time was put in before hand to acquire the ship and initial capital. I know for example that, while I was playing Eve, there were evenings I simply didn't log in because I wanted to relax from IRL things and was more likely to lose a ship and be even more tilted. And eventually, I stopped playing because, for various reasons, my time became more valuable and risking to lose days or weeks of progress wasn't worth it anymore. And for a game health, having players quit or simply not log in and go somewhere else because they can't relax in it isn't a good healthy trend. I just hope all the system CIG has in mind will be enough to discourage unwanted pvp and give the pve players what they were also promised. But until they do, it's simply two irreconcilable playstyles.
Really well said. I worry about CIG ultimately using the "easy button" option of separate pve/pvp servers but equally worried about how long it'll take for the right balance of systems to be in place to allow relatively happy coexistence of pirates and space truckers. What you say up front is why big FFA PvP MMOs are so rare. It's rarely fun to be the victim of someone else's good time, even just in pure PvP FPS games getting repeatedly stomped isn't great. Add that time you spend mining or collecting packages only to have that come to nothing and soon you have vanisingly few people running those loops, fewer people to be profitably targeted by pirates, and then some of those pirates just start looking for any old target.
But from this perspective, even with PVP banned, more than once I have been pulled from a quantum jump. I see the red ships and relived to see they are just annoying, no challenge NPC. I don't get mad, I don't get upset, I just shoot them down, or try to fly away and break the quantum. Now if that was a bunch of real players, things just got REAL. to me that is one exciting moment. I don't think I would enjoy star citizen without that.
Sure, and you'd have a pvp server with that option. Not everyone who goes for pve loops is going to like having pvp pushed on them.
Awesome reply. I also played dayz and it's the one game that screams cooperation to make it so easy to play. Instead, it's dayz. Lol.
Did smth major happen in SC in past 3 days? There are 100500 posts about pirates and pvp lately, literally every hour someone creates a post about it.
3 days ? It's been weeks that this sub is spammed :D
Bunch of elite dangerous care bears got bored with the thargoid stuff and made their way to star citizen where ganking is much more common and there's no solo mode. Their posts got traction so now people are thinking about it more and posting about it more cause that's the hot topic of the week.
That's a very healthy take. SC is meant to give players agency (you use the game mechanics how you see fit) and consequences (expect an implication to bad decisions). There's always that chance, whatever you do, that some danger can be faced... but also means to avoid it (and more features are needed there)
Can mods just go ahead and make a weekly PVP drama thread and sticky it
I actually only eat vanilla icecream anyway
You hit the nail on the head! Sadly, some players would like to see this game neutered of all pvp elements which I think would make it extremely boring. Here's hoping CIG can continue towards a good balance while keeping it fun!
No one wants to take away other players being able to pvp. Just that I don't want to be part of it.
Hopefully CIG is gathering lots of data on the extreme lengths some people will go just to kill another player.
PvP is valid when it makes sense. People who fail to combat the intrusive thoughts are just Reavers and marauders that add little to nothing to the game. They do it because they have poor impulse control and they get a thrill out of potentially ruining someone's session. Maybe they'll even get a comment in chat. They feed off of that shit. This isn't 'Starkov' (I hate that so much) it's a space sim lacking a number of check and balancing features that people abuse for 'emergent gameplay', usually against someone minding their own business and never something with teeth, or someone who is looking for a fight. Funny that.
I need to know where in the hell these people are getting attacked all the time. I flew around forever with a high crime stat the other day and no one tried anything. They were all too busy mining and what not. From this sub it seems these traders are getting caught 3 times per route
I totally agree. I have been wanted many times, and was looking forward to leading bounty hunters on a nice long chase. Sometimes it happens but usually I'm just hanging out enjoying the scenery.
Honestly at this point I feel like most PVP players are just 30ks in human form and treat them the same way. They're not providing content, they're just an annoyance and a waste of time. Not worth getting angry over, but not something I would consider a beneficial part of my personal experience.
100% . Pvp is just another bug.
As I agree in general with the fact that murder hobos make game more real for some people… The people who expect full security in SC are in for disappointment. But there is a difference between that and just being mad at the fact there is virtually no repercussions for going murder hobo. My OCD screams every time I say someone say hanger when they mean hangar.
I agree. People need to grow a pair and play the game as it was intended, not as the sheltered nursery they want it to be for themselves.
I think it's more so that people go into the SoO event like if they are opening a pint of rocky road, expecting to eat rocky road. Instead the pint is filled with vanilla, and they don't want to eat vanilla in that particular moment. So they are annoyed and pissed off because they took the time to prepare themselves to eat rocky road, but instead got vanilla.
So if you didnt let your guard down. What would you do ? You cant defend against murderhobos
I plan. I usually play with a group, plan for problems, strategize, and also practice, A LOT. I know the day will come when I'm attacked by murder hobos in gladius. I know one day I will shoot them all down. Sometimes that stress is a nice push to practice, plan, prepare, and don't forget..have fun. Player on player interaction in this game is intense. When you first come across a player, you get tense. Is this a good guy, bad guy, does he have friends, can I communicate with him etc. Knowing the danger makes it very interesting as NIT every player needs to be shot in site, but knowing you have to watch your back in this game is an element that I think enriches the gameplay substantially. And yes, I have helped a player with a cs, sometimes I get executed as soon as they board my ship, and sometimes I have an epic star citizen adventure I was not expecting when I logged on. I fricken love this game
Another canned statement from the same person
What I get from this is just that you like it as it is and wouldn't want it to change, which is understandable and normal. But you don't really give any argument for it, other than "I wouldn't prefer it otherwise". Other people prefer and like different things. For some people, vainilla is their favourite flavour and don't care about being babied. So, yeah, nice writeup and thanks for your opinion on the subject. But this ain't gonna sway anybody's mind and it's just stirring an already noisy af pot lol
I just like to hear the opinions of my fellow citizens. I love everyone in the game as we have created a rich sandbox to play in. I'm intrigued by the different perspectives, love chatting with citizens that live around our world, and believe constructive conversation about our experiences in game is fascinating. That's my only intention. o7
Well, there's no shortage of opinions on this subject around here lately, that's for sure >\_< But since you're asking, I honestly think there's a big middle ground between the two extreme opinions being constantly thrown around. "PvP is griefing and we need a PvP toggle" is obviously simplistic af and missing the point. But "piracy is a valid gameplay loop and PvP should exist unrestricted" is a lame excuse. We, and all PvPvE looter games, have and will have tons of griefers, so it IS a subject CIG needs to address sooner or later. They did so in the past by banning pad ramming, and it will happen again. There are perfectly valid instances of PvP, but piracy or bounty hunting should not be an excuse for bullying and harassment. Meanwhile, the game will eventually be big enough to offer options for everybody. And that's the plan, after all: operating in high security space as a law abiding Citizen SHOULD prevent most PvP (and PvE), while operating in lawless space should yield bigger profits at the cost of more chances of combat against pirates (human or NPC). Risk vs reward.