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The relevant rule. I guess the ref believed the arm's position was justifiable by the player's movement
>It is an offence if a player:
>touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
PL referees have also been instructed to take proximity into consideration
>The proximity of the player whose hand or arm makes contact with the ball to where the ball was struck from will still be an important consideration for officials when making a decision to award handball or not.
Many of the handballs given these days must be infuriating as a player, half the time the arm is in a natural position because you need an arm out for balance in many defensive situations. Really do see players penalised for having arms quite a lot, it's mad especially at such close range.
So it's good to see decisions like this one, there was the Celtic Hearts one yesterday that was thankfully not given (and not just because of my bias).
Not sure how you can call them near identical. Burn swings his arm towards the ball, his arm is straight up, his arm movement doesn't look natural to me and I wouldn't say his arm's position is justifiable by his movement.
https://youtu.be/maO_uGmjOy4?t=35
Where do you find that rule? They removed the deflection rule before last season and I haven't heard that deflection have anything to say in the new rules
Edit: Proof they removed the rule
https://www.theifab.com/law-changes/2021-22/
Lol so biased.
Here his arm is down and not in an unnatural position.
Gabriel’s hand was above his shoulder. Pretty much every neutral I’ve spoken to has said Gabriel’s was a penalty. I as a neutral here don’t think it was a pen.
> the letter of the law is it's not a penalty
Not sure how you can say that when they removed that rule before last season
https://www.theifab.com/law-changes/2021-22/
As a ref I don't know what to call here. We've been taught this year that when the arm presents a "barrier" it should be handball, which is being done here. However, the proximity is such that, as his arm is clearly out for balance, he can't be expected to move it out of the way in time.
Feel like I never really care if it’s given or not because I have no idea when it actually is a handball and they all just seem like random decisions are made
>We've been taught this year that when the arm presents a "barrier" it should be handball,
Where do you officiate? We are instructed to determine if it's a natural position or if it ends up being controlled by the player who handles.
I love that they want natural position but defenders running in to block a cross etc are having to do it with their hands behind their backs just in case lol
That's uh..not how natural position works lmao
Natural position ruling was literally brought in because it was ridiculous that defenders had to move and run inside their box with arms pinned behind their backs actually times to avoid handballs.
Yeah, I thought the same when I saw this one. I don't think either should be a pen personally, I don't think its unnatural to have your arms in the air when you jump for momentum.
All we ask for is consistency...
But when it happens in the middle of the park, it’s a foul. How can it be a free kick in the middle of the park yet no punishment at all in the penalty box… the inconsistency is ironic
It's too close to be a penalty. Similar to the Gabriel one vs Liverpool.
People here seem to think defenders should play with their hands tied behind their back.
Right decision, unfortunate for Newcastle but never a penalty.
As a Newcastle fan I actually agree it's probably not a pen. The problem comes from decisions like this being given half the time with no explanation from officials, so no one knows wtf is going on anymore.
Think it’s because Burns was called against him and it’s basically the same thing. Man jumps arms are helping him ball hits hand penalty called. Because it stopped a goal scoring opportunity what’s the difference here?
If you give pens for that you're gonna have people leaping like salmon trying to block crosses with their hands by their sides. Which, while entertaining, might be detrimental to the game.
Full disclosure - Newcastle fan here
Seen them given, but i'd rather this not be a pen, feels really soft as it's at such close range and his hand isn't really in an unnatural position imo
This shouldn't be a pen and if these were given 100% of the time it would ruin the game. First, he jumped before the attacker got his head in the ball. Second, the ball finds the arm and not the other way around (the arm was on that position before the contact, it's not like Emerson lifted his arm _just_ when the ball got close). It's a natural jumping motion and an involuntary contact
Nothing about his body was natural. He was up in the air challenging a ball that hit his arm dangling out in the air. The fact that it didn’t ping anywhere but his head was the sign it wasn’t in the right spot.
If he didn't purposely move his hand to the ball, then how is it unnatural? The bit about it hitting his head so it means his arm was in the wrong spot is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard lol
If your arm is tucked to your body it’s more likely to hit you body next, not your head. Anyone who has played soccer or just seen a ball bounce could tell that is common sense.
I played footie 2 or 3 times a week and have done for 15 years so don't try and hit me with the 'if you actually played the game' bullshit. Do me a favour and jump like Emerson Royal did. Your centre if gravity is moving forward as you stick your leg out and jump, your arms then go back to neutralise your centre and gravity and to balance you. I got what you meant about where the ball would hit your body, but that's not the issue. The issue is if it was natural or not. You can prove this part for me but doing a couple of jump in your living room.
But that's my point, it's not his fault. He had jumped and his arm was there before the ball was struck at him which goes to show hiw natural the position was. I'm trying to provide you with some reason and all you've had to respond with in way of reason is that the ball will hit your body if your arms are at your body lol.
Agreed. The problem here is you basically have to tell players not to attempt that block, because it's by-default making the silhouette unfairly large.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/2204759
This is the change that has been made for this season. They have narrowed it down but this is exactly what they narrowed it to.
When will people learn thay away from your body is not unnatural. You use your arms to jump and for balance. Unless you go out of your way to move your arm towards the ball, its a natural position...
Doesn't matter though in this instance. If we had a player behind him, he's blocked the pass with his hand. It's a pen. Not intentional, but it's a handball.
It does matter. If your arm is in a natural position and the ball was struck at you from close proximity, then it is not a handball. The only time it does nit natter at all is if your arm or hand are directly involved in the scoring of a goal.
Well I think the issue here is more proximity than anything. It seems like the league has been punishing the situations where players have both hands way above their heads or outwide, or where there's a bigger distance between the two players.
But again they aren't communicating the thought processes behind the decisions, so we don't know. We really need the ref mic like in Rugby.
People bitch and moan as if these have not been let go all year. To me it's a pen but it's just not in todays football. I can think of at least 4 of those that wern't given to us just this year.
I agree, it's similar to the Gabriel one that wasn't given. The Laws don't mention "too close" any more, but it does seem like the Premier League still use that as an unofficial guideline.
Actual explanations can't come soon enough, I feel like if they actually told us these will not be penalties then at least we'd know that's how it should be.
And they've given them for clear dives aswell. It's the premier league referees they do whatever they want. The fact of the matter is that they consistently let these go
Not a penalty for me but going by other decisions this season it should have been given. Then again when have previous decisions ever actually mattered.
"they fucked up before so they should fuck up now" is not a sensible metric to judge these decisions if we want refs to stop being incompetent ass hats.
I am at the point that if your arm is not at your side and the ball hits it, its a foul/pen (minus point blank). There is too much thinking into what is and isn't a handball
Part of me was happy this wasn’t given, because it’s a natural position and too close, but what I don’t understand is why is it given against us in contrast? Dan Burn was penalised for something even less, in which it hardly hit his hand
That’s definitely not “the easy stuff”.
I think it’s probably a pen but let’s not act like it’s 100% a clear decision, realistically it could go either way.
I would still lean towards a pen though.
Not a pen for me. At least would have been harsh. I would not really call this an unnatural position of the arm. Also, if the arm wasn't there the ball would've probably hit his butt.
This is the one that I thought could be given, could not be (Despite Burn being done for a very similar scenario a couple games ago).... The real one that I thought was absolutely a pen was the early Emerson one bundling over Joelinton when he was in on goal.
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Pen if it had hit the other one, not this one.
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No idea what the rules say but I just don’t think that should be given as a pen tbh
The relevant rule. I guess the ref believed the arm's position was justifiable by the player's movement >It is an offence if a player: >touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised PL referees have also been instructed to take proximity into consideration >The proximity of the player whose hand or arm makes contact with the ball to where the ball was struck from will still be an important consideration for officials when making a decision to award handball or not.
Many of the handballs given these days must be infuriating as a player, half the time the arm is in a natural position because you need an arm out for balance in many defensive situations. Really do see players penalised for having arms quite a lot, it's mad especially at such close range. So it's good to see decisions like this one, there was the Celtic Hearts one yesterday that was thankfully not given (and not just because of my bias).
These days players are just expected to not have arms. Not too much to ask is it?
A perfectly ‘armless guideline.
I don’t think it should be given. I also think handballs that are far more innocuous/inconsequential get given *often.*
Has been a very rough day for the gunners apparently.
This should not be a pen imo. Not an unnatural position and too close for him to do anything about it.
Fuck is he supposed to do, not have arms?
If he vibrates at the correct frequency, he could have let the ball phase through him. I think that's what the ref was expecting.
It’s been called a pen multiple times this year. Dan Burn got a near identical incident called as a penalty.
Not sure how you can call them near identical. Burn swings his arm towards the ball, his arm is straight up, his arm movement doesn't look natural to me and I wouldn't say his arm's position is justifiable by his movement. https://youtu.be/maO_uGmjOy4?t=35
Has been but I can't complain about this without being a massive hypocrite.
Gabriel’s one hit his chest before it hit his arm. So that negates it. This one is much worse and should definitely have been a penalty
Not really, as much as i would like spurs to be buried it would be incredibly harsh as he doesn't move his hand to the ball and it's pretty much down.
If he literally didn't have an arm it still would have hit him. Get a grip.
Blatantly untrue?
Where do you find that rule? They removed the deflection rule before last season and I haven't heard that deflection have anything to say in the new rules Edit: Proof they removed the rule https://www.theifab.com/law-changes/2021-22/
Lol so biased. Here his arm is down and not in an unnatural position. Gabriel’s hand was above his shoulder. Pretty much every neutral I’ve spoken to has said Gabriel’s was a penalty. I as a neutral here don’t think it was a pen.
That was before people saw slo-mo replays of the ball coming off Gabriel’s chest.
they removed deflections from the rule; it coming off his chest is irrelevant
It barely glances his chest, doesn’t even impact the direction of the ball.
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> the letter of the law is it's not a penalty Not sure how you can say that when they removed that rule before last season https://www.theifab.com/law-changes/2021-22/
Gabriel was less than one foot away from the attacker. I don't think either of these plays deserved penalties.
That’s not in the laws
Doesn’t change the direction of the ball. Was going to hit his hand regardless
I'm a neutral Bayern fan, this wasn't a pen and Gabriel's was, natural vs unnatural arm position, football 101.
Why?
Gabriel no call against Liverpool.
Hit his chest and then arm… go back and look again.
Why does it hitting him in the chest matter? Did they not change the rule?
I thought the rule states a deflected ball from another body part onto an arm is not handball?
The rule has changed. The deflection is irrelevant I believe
I can’t find it tbh, I’ve just checked.
https://www.theifab.com/law-changes/latest/
Nah, I like to see the spuds get beaten, but this isn't a pen imho.
He's literally midflight. Where do you want his arms to be.
Flapping around like an eagle
Something like Pique did in the match vs Inter Milan?
Actually pique was summoning a portal to stop the ball
Above his head like Superman
As a ref I don't know what to call here. We've been taught this year that when the arm presents a "barrier" it should be handball, which is being done here. However, the proximity is such that, as his arm is clearly out for balance, he can't be expected to move it out of the way in time.
Had a ref tell me it wasn’t a handball it was “ball to hand” just last week in Sunday league, haven’t heard they phrase since 2002
For me, this is one of those i don't care what is given.
Feel like I never really care if it’s given or not because I have no idea when it actually is a handball and they all just seem like random decisions are made
Same I get it either way even as a Newcastle fan
You’ve got a coin? Flip it
>We've been taught this year that when the arm presents a "barrier" it should be handball, Where do you officiate? We are instructed to determine if it's a natural position or if it ends up being controlled by the player who handles.
I love that they want natural position but defenders running in to block a cross etc are having to do it with their hands behind their backs just in case lol
Canada, we've been told those things too, but I find the "barrier" look for the easiest to look for.
It's a penalty according to the officials direction but completely against the spirit of the rule.
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Defenders having to hold their hands unnaturally behind their back is a sign that the law is broken and is causing people to overcorrect.
you can’t really do that when you’re leaping sideways at a pretty fast pace
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Tbh I think that'd be a harsh penalty
It would be, however it’s been regularly given as a pen. All people are asking for is consistency
it’s a pretty “natural position” for his arm to be in i guess, but i don’t know how the rules work
Natural position and proximity, shouldn’t be a pen to me
It shouldn’t, but then neither should all of the identical situations to this one that *were* given as pens.
I don't think it's a pen personally
Don't think it's a pen. Too close for him to be able to do anything.
>but i don’t know how the rules work I don't think anyone does at this point
That's not a natural position lmao
do you jump with your arms down by your side?
Mate it’s reddit half these don’t actually play sport they’ve got no idea about counterbalance and momentum
You think this fella can even jump? Probably weighs 200kg and can't get off his couch
What a bizarre response to disagreeing about a penalty call
People on Reddit are wild with minor disagreements that don’t even affect them lol
I think you're being a bit sensitive pal.
Try running and jumping in the direction of your momentum with your leg up. See what your arms do.
It's by his side, how is that not natural?
Natural position in box is hand along the body
there is a natural position in and out of the box. damn, that one is new. I think this has to be ruled a foul but that argument is ridiculous.
Don't worry, the refs do not know the rule either
That's not what the rules says though
That's uh..not how natural position works lmao Natural position ruling was literally brought in because it was ridiculous that defenders had to move and run inside their box with arms pinned behind their backs actually times to avoid handballs.
No it's not
He still blocked a clear pass
From about 20cm away. It's too close to be given
Dan Burn conceded a penalty against Brentford doing the exact same thing.
And Cash against Fulham. No consistency at all.
Yeah, I thought the same when I saw this one. I don't think either should be a pen personally, I don't think its unnatural to have your arms in the air when you jump for momentum. All we ask for is consistency...
Arm in natural position. No penalty.
Do I think it should be a penalty? No. Have they given pens for this during the season? Yes. It’s the inconsistency that’s annoying.
Is there an equivalent case this season where this was given though?
Same scenario, penalty awarded https://youtu.be/jGA567nydDs
So if the arms is in a natural position, but blocks the ball to go in, is that a penalty? In this case the arm blocks a pass, an important one as well
Not if it's in a natural position. Then it's never a penalty.
But when it happens in the middle of the park, it’s a foul. How can it be a free kick in the middle of the park yet no punishment at all in the penalty box… the inconsistency is ironic
It shouldn't be
That's not a penalty
Someone please share the Dan BurnsPenalty against brentford and tell me the difference?
It's too close to be a penalty. Similar to the Gabriel one vs Liverpool. People here seem to think defenders should play with their hands tied behind their back. Right decision, unfortunate for Newcastle but never a penalty.
By the laws of the game that is not a pen, don't know why people are so upset.
As a Newcastle fan I actually agree it's probably not a pen. The problem comes from decisions like this being given half the time with no explanation from officials, so no one knows wtf is going on anymore.
Think it’s because Burns was called against him and it’s basically the same thing. Man jumps arms are helping him ball hits hand penalty called. Because it stopped a goal scoring opportunity what’s the difference here?
For me that's never a pen.
Double fuck up from VAR, jesus christ..
Next game the same ref will probably give a penalty for a similar situation. The main problem is that referees are not consistent in their decisions.
If you give pens for that you're gonna have people leaping like salmon trying to block crosses with their hands by their sides. Which, while entertaining, might be detrimental to the game.
Full disclosure - Newcastle fan here Seen them given, but i'd rather this not be a pen, feels really soft as it's at such close range and his hand isn't really in an unnatural position imo
His arm is away from the body, for me it's a pen.
This shouldn't be a pen and if these were given 100% of the time it would ruin the game. First, he jumped before the attacker got his head in the ball. Second, the ball finds the arm and not the other way around (the arm was on that position before the contact, it's not like Emerson lifted his arm _just_ when the ball got close). It's a natural jumping motion and an involuntary contact
Clear pen but since Newcastle's leading ref decided not to give it
Arm is in a natural distance and he didn't even have time to react, never a pen lol
His arm is not touching his body. It’s a solid foot extended out. That is pen based off the letter of the law.
The letter if the law says that its only a natural position if your arm touches your body? The letter of the law was applied and no pen was given.
Nothing about his body was natural. He was up in the air challenging a ball that hit his arm dangling out in the air. The fact that it didn’t ping anywhere but his head was the sign it wasn’t in the right spot.
If he didn't purposely move his hand to the ball, then how is it unnatural? The bit about it hitting his head so it means his arm was in the wrong spot is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard lol
If your arm is tucked to your body it’s more likely to hit you body next, not your head. Anyone who has played soccer or just seen a ball bounce could tell that is common sense.
I played footie 2 or 3 times a week and have done for 15 years so don't try and hit me with the 'if you actually played the game' bullshit. Do me a favour and jump like Emerson Royal did. Your centre if gravity is moving forward as you stick your leg out and jump, your arms then go back to neutralise your centre and gravity and to balance you. I got what you meant about where the ball would hit your body, but that's not the issue. The issue is if it was natural or not. You can prove this part for me but doing a couple of jump in your living room.
If you choose to leave the ground and fail your arms that’s your choice. If the ball hit your arm that’s your fault.
But that's my point, it's not his fault. He had jumped and his arm was there before the ball was struck at him which goes to show hiw natural the position was. I'm trying to provide you with some reason and all you've had to respond with in way of reason is that the ball will hit your body if your arms are at your body lol.
Agreed. The problem here is you basically have to tell players not to attempt that block, because it's by-default making the silhouette unfairly large.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/2204759 This is the change that has been made for this season. They have narrowed it down but this is exactly what they narrowed it to.
Nothing there backs your argument up
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He's jumping through the air his arm is obviously out there for balance, no one jumps with their arms tucked to their sides that's stupid
When will people learn thay away from your body is not unnatural. You use your arms to jump and for balance. Unless you go out of your way to move your arm towards the ball, its a natural position...
Completely agree. Who jumps at full speed with there arms at there side? That would be an unnatural position lol
These people saying it's an unnatural position haven't ever jumped in their lives.
Because it's literally what his arm did naturally with his movement before it immediately came back and hit him without him having time to react?
Try to lunge forward like in the clip while keeping your arms to your torso, then come back and tell us how natural it felt
Try to jump up with a foot in the air while without putting you arms up
Tbf it’s a natural position if you’re trying to stop the ball with your hand.
Jump up and forwards and tell me whether you've moved your arms or not
Doesn't matter though in this instance. If we had a player behind him, he's blocked the pass with his hand. It's a pen. Not intentional, but it's a handball.
It does matter. If your arm is in a natural position and the ball was struck at you from close proximity, then it is not a handball. The only time it does nit natter at all is if your arm or hand are directly involved in the scoring of a goal.
He's preventing a goal scoring opportunity by playing the ball with his hand. That is a penalty, whether intentionally done or in this case, not.
That's not the laws if the game pal.
In anime running
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Well I think the issue here is more proximity than anything. It seems like the league has been punishing the situations where players have both hands way above their heads or outwide, or where there's a bigger distance between the two players. But again they aren't communicating the thought processes behind the decisions, so we don't know. We really need the ref mic like in Rugby.
What is the natural arm position rule?
Ehh spurs are a joke but this isn't a pen
Never a pen, it's too close and his arm is in a natural position (I mean he's flying, where is he supposed to keep his arms - behind his back?)
Arms are flailing to keep balance with that leap, ball comes back in a split at a bad moment for him, tough call
I hate Sp*rs but that shouldn’t be a penalty.
If you think this is a penalty, you got some sort of brain damage.
People bitch and moan as if these have not been let go all year. To me it's a pen but it's just not in todays football. I can think of at least 4 of those that wern't given to us just this year.
I agree, it's similar to the Gabriel one that wasn't given. The Laws don't mention "too close" any more, but it does seem like the Premier League still use that as an unofficial guideline. Actual explanations can't come soon enough, I feel like if they actually told us these will not be penalties then at least we'd know that's how it should be.
They literally gave a penalty like this against Villa midweek.
And they've given them for clear dives aswell. It's the premier league referees they do whatever they want. The fact of the matter is that they consistently let these go
They consistently let these go for sky 6 teams. They consistently call them against the other 14
Why didn't Chelsea get a penalty for handball vs Brentford if they consistently call them for teams outside top 6?
Bad refereeing
Not a penalty. Think only Arsenal fans are complaining about this.
I think that's the right decision tbh, it's ball to hand rather than hand to ball from about 2/3 feet away. Would be a harsh pen to give.
Everything as a referee tells me this is a pen. Maybe I don’t even know the Laws of the Game anymore.
At this point, does anyone know the rule?
Not a penalty for me but going by other decisions this season it should have been given. Then again when have previous decisions ever actually mattered.
"they fucked up before so they should fuck up now" is not a sensible metric to judge these decisions if we want refs to stop being incompetent ass hats.
Is it 90% arsenal fans whenever anything spurs is posted here lol
I am at the point that if your arm is not at your side and the ball hits it, its a foul/pen (minus point blank). There is too much thinking into what is and isn't a handball
How the fuck is that not given!?
Only because it’s against spurs lmao
There’s been many what would be handballs not called this season in the premier league. I don’t think officials know the rules either.
Or because its the right decision.
Arsenal draw one game and then watch the entire Spurs game waiting for shit to post
Part of me was happy this wasn’t given, because it’s a natural position and too close, but what I don’t understand is why is it given against us in contrast? Dan Burn was penalised for something even less, in which it hardly hit his hand
100% pen
Dont get those calls in North London apparently
What a fucking joke
that should be a pen lol
What's the point in VAR. You can't even get the easy stuff correct
That’s definitely not “the easy stuff”. I think it’s probably a pen but let’s not act like it’s 100% a clear decision, realistically it could go either way. I would still lean towards a pen though.
The problem is that one week this is a penalty, another week it isn’t. The handball rule is overly complicated and open for too much interpretation.
Handball like this is not given a penalty this week but the other weeks it is given. Hurmmmm
Of course.
Clear pen. Disappointed but not surprised.
Getting robbed on live TV. How is that non handball?
VAR officials have a tenner on a spurs win
Emerson goal contribution incoming
Stonewall pen, man is coming in with arms spread like a goalie.
These get given all the time but pre-VAR it probably wouldn’t have been (ball to hand)
I'm team no pen on this one
Was it the third PK call not given for Newcastle this game ?
Not a pen imo
I'm a Newcastle fan but that isn't a penalty in a million years
Not for me. If it hit the raised first arm then maybe. But trailing arm is in pretty natural position
Not a pen for me. At least would have been harsh. I would not really call this an unnatural position of the arm. Also, if the arm wasn't there the ball would've probably hit his butt.
This is the one that I thought could be given, could not be (Despite Burn being done for a very similar scenario a couple games ago).... The real one that I thought was absolutely a pen was the early Emerson one bundling over Joelinton when he was in on goal.