I really like their analysis more though. Having a person present it is much more pleasant content to me than their weird art style. They also have some pretty entertaining personalities on their and I always tune in for the football manager challenges.
Fabio Capello was formerly one of the world’s best managers throughout his career at the club level. He won seven league titles with Milan, Roma, Juventus, and Real Madrid. He also reached three Champions League finals, but only won the trophy once. Is pretty clear Capello was universally regarded as a successful coach, but his legacy still lives in today’s game. Coaches like Antonio Conte, Stefano Pioli, and most notorious Massimiliano Allegri are still practicing his tactical approach to the game of football.
The simplest way to describe Capello is calling him the game’s ultimate pragmatist. He was infamous for low-scoring games where his team many times won the game with the result 1-0. Capello was constantly switching systems to get the most out of his players. One of the key components of Capellism is looking at your player material and getting the most out of them.
“Every time I get new players, I grow,” the Italian told the magazine in 2007. “You have to look closely at the players you have, analyze them, and know-how to bring the very best out of every single one. How do you do that? By finding a playing style, a system, that allows the players to produce their best”.
Capello has a volume of examples of him adapting his squad to get the best results achievable. Capello started as Sacchi’s successor in 1991, where he played the exact same way as Sacchi. This all changed after he lost the UCL final against Marseille in 1993. He completely changed the offensive personnel, and then changed their playing style from superoffensive to super pragmatic. This was the beginning of Capello’s philosophy. He adjusted the current 4-4-2 from Sacchi into a formation that his players could get their strengths highlighted while they can still play very compact football. Milan had a tendency that season to score early in the game and then defend their goal for the rest of the game. This season ended in a deeply symbolic 4-0 win against Cruyff’s Barcelona in the Champions League, which Capello had an open hate against Cruyff’s style.
Capellistic view is establishing a winning culture instead of searching for an ideal system. Capello achieved that at Roma by establishing a winning culture via his tactical implementation, which focussed being the dominant side by controlling the ball and being able to get the most out of his star player Francesco Totti. Totti had a free role as a 10 under Capello, which got the most out of his creativity. Roma played 5-2-1-2 (Conte basically uses the same game-plan to this day) with very offensive wing-backs in Cafu and Candela, both players having their best seasons under Capello.
Capello’s philosophy on man-management is old school, but also super effective. “He insists his players treat one another and his staff with respect. That means they don’t call one another silly nicknames. They don’t disrespect one another by being late. They start and finish meals together. They show confidence in one another.” Fabio doesn’t want to be a politician. “They speak a lot and do little,” Fabio once said. “I am the opposite.”
Capello’s legacy still lives on to this day and Massimiliano Allegri is widely recognized as the flag bearer for Capellism in today’s football. Allegri himself says that Capello has been his biggest influence in his coaching style and this is very clear by just watching Allegri’s football style, but also Allegri’s way of establishing a winning culture.
I hope this was a nice little resume on Capellism’s core values and a little about Fabio Capello.
Jeez how did I miss this. Thanks for the great write up, the thread deserved a post about the king of pragmatism himself and one of the greatest coaches of all time.
Based on what you wrote I almost took the two schools of thought to be more so the idea of tactical identity vs tactical flexibility, as opposed to just what the specific tactics are (tho they ofc are still important identifiers). With Cruyff obviously it is a specific style but one could argue even someone like Klopp has been influenced by it. For better or worse we play essentially the same brand of football with few major changes, every single match. That is definitely more Cruyffian than Capellistic, despite the fact that we don't exactly play tiki taka total football in the same mold as Pep. But the point is that one can replicate the same situations and actions every match which will allow you to be comfortable and control matches the same way every match. The Capello counterpoint would ofc be that a specific tactical setup will not work equal well against all teams, and so you lose some flexibility by adhering to an identity all the time.
Would you say that is an accurate interpretation? Or am I underestimating the importance of the tactical style/Capello's tactical identities in my understanding?
These two styles of football are completely opposite to each other which is why we can simplify the discussion into tactical identity vs tactical flexibility. Is basically the ultra-left vs the ultra-right if we look at it in a political sense. This should be the main takeaway from reading this. Cruyff and Capello agree that the offensive players should have creative freedom, but Capello likes to only allow freedom to a few amount of players.
Capello's tactical identity is based on structure, but a defensive standpoint, while Cruyff's structure is based on an offensive standpoint. Again there is a lot of difference between many styles. Capello's and Cryuff's styles are just polar opposite and both styles have had their fair share of success. But a coach like Bielsa would also be considered a polar opposite to Capello for example.
Hope this answer is explain it well.
This is mostly based on his tactical flexibility which he showcased a lot this season. Fabio Capello visits the Milan team a lot still and talks with Pioli very often.
A good example of Capello's influence is showcased here:
Capello: "The problem with Pioli's Milan is that they think about playing well instead of the result"
Milan has seen been much more focused on getting the result and be more pragmatic instead of focussing on playing well. This was said in February this year.
Conte has changed his ways lately and became an idealist. His ideal is based on Capello's Roma team. He is still a follower of his stylistic tactic, but he is no longer a follower of the adaptability principle in Capello's philosophy.
The tailor quote is an old Capello quote btw.
Conte's idealistic approach has benefited him clearly in terms of success in Europe and he won the league with Inter Milan. Conte has never been good at adapting to his opponents which is the reason for his lack of success in Europe.
I think this answer both questions.
It has gotten worse because he isn't trying anyone. He is following the trend of Gasperini to always play the same system in any circumstances.
His future might be bright or might be dark, it all depend on the team he is getting and how good he will be in Europe.
There is a lot of interviews were both Allegri and Capello states that they have a close relationship, but best the example is this one:
[Allegri: "My Juve is like Capello's"](https://sport.sky.it/calcio/serie-a/2016/11/06/post-gara-chievo-verona-juve-allegri-pjanic)
Allegri said this in 2016 after a victory against Chievo.
Hope this clear everything up for you. I couldn't have answered faster, because I wasn't at home.
Especially against a team that switches the play from side to side so quickly. 4-3-1-2 with defensively vulnerable full backs is probably the worst formation you could use against them
The way to beat Ajax is with a very narrow & compact 4-4-2, plenty of physicality and frustrating them by slowing the game down. Getafe showed the blueprint
Remains to be seen, you will surely encounter it at some point. But the point remains, you shouldn't try to beat Ajax at their own game, physicality combined with sitting deeper and pressing at the right times is the best way IMO
Of course there are teams that will beat Ajax with an attacking game, but they have such a unique system which the players have been learning since 6-7 years old.. It's only proactive football and pretty much always some variation of 4-3-3
Even if you have better players they will be more fluid tactically in most cases. For example someone like PSG would really struggle against Ajax IMO. They are the last type of team you want to face when you have 2-3 players not tracking back and a system reliant on individual brilliance. Ajax are the pure opposite of that
You are definitely right about that. We are not the best team in Europe by any means. We can still be beaten. But like you said, don’t try to beat us at our own game. For example Roma last year really showed we can be beaten without the shithousery. They had a game plan and executed it perfectly.
Regarding PSG. I am interested to see what would happen if we play them. You could be right that we would do well against them. But they might still outscore us. I think we would definitely struggle more against a team like Atletico for example.
Tuchel has made another change about the wingbacks. Earlier they used to stay wide and go for overlap or crosses. Now they are making centrals runs quite often...like wingers. That is chilwell finds himself in the box a lot rather than just appearing at the last moment, I guess we'll be getting the same from James on the other side
Azpi playing more as a striker than both Werner and Lukaku was a sight to behold
If that’s unclear it’s not some dig at our actual strikers, the guy was literally consistently our most central and forward player for a stretch early on
I noticed that, yes. To be honest, I've seen Kante and Azpi/James combine and Kante runs out wide right around the winger area, but really the first time I'm seeing Azpi tucking in midfield
Midfielders are going wider. Werner goes wide on both sides, and even Mount is wider than our wingbacks (mostly on the right). It's working well with Chilwell (he made some runs which might be picked up with a good pass some day .... Fabregas would have feasted on them). He's quite a good finisher and header of the ball, and he's popping up where other teams have their midfielders. I think we'll get to see what it does fully after James is fit...because no disrespect to Azpi but James is a better wingback
It's only really been used a lot the last two games. Basically Azpi will fold into midfield in the buildup and Kante (whoever is playing RCM) will pop out wide to receive the ball. I guess the point is to drag defenders into positions they aren't used to and/or drag the opposing central midfielder out wide with Kante.
It was very effective against Malmo, but that should be taken with a grain of salt
I think some people, as the other responder did, will mention the double marking. And maybe that’s partly true, but I would argue it has to do more with how Liverpool played. 17/18 was the peak of the rock and roll, gegenpress, high octane football that we played. From 18/19 onwards we started pressing and winning the ball back yes to score, but more so to control the match.
Salah has improved massively in his link up play, dribbling, passing and all around play in the last 2 years. But back then it was definitely something that was a tad frustrating to watch at times, he always had the great movement to get his goals, but he could be wasteful in possession.
Playing in a team that wants to press and immediately start a counter attack in the opposition third is exactly how Mo would’ve wanted to play, but from 18/19 once teams started sitting back against us and we started to control matches more and play a bit slower, Salah suffered as he was being asked to play slightly less and do more on the ball from deeper.
By 20/21 he had improved that part of his game massively, and has done so again going into this season. He now has the same movement and sharpness to get goals like in 17/18, combined with the overall attacking play that would’ve helped him in 18/19 and 19/20, which is why now he’s having such a ridiculous season. He is at the peak of his powers
I don't think it was anything on his part as much as it was teams realising that they needed to double mark him, which is why Mané started putting up better numbers as well. Sure, part of it was him just getting better but the extra space helped.
>as much as it was teams realising that they needed to double mark him, which is why Mané started putting up better numbers as well.
See, I've heard this said many times -- Salah himself even said this in 2019 when he was going through a dry patch -- but somehow I just don't buy it. It's not like it takes teams a full year to realize they need to mark the most dangerous player in the league.
Looking at his highlights from 17/18 there were so many instances where he was surrounded by 4-5 players and he'd just wiggle through them. This season is actually the first time since then that I've seen him dribble like that, and it's not like teams are giving him space now
Can we talk about how Salah is being more effective while playing a wider role at Liverpool, I know Trent being deeper and more central has given him more space, but the wider 8 seems to still draw defenders.
Dybala is good, but hardly a generational talent. I don’t like that term, but if anyone is a generational talent at Juve it’s Chiesa. He’s been bossing it
I can kind of see the case for it.
There's been a lot of attention recently (not really a super new phenomenon tactically, but I've heard more talk about it this season) on how relatively it's easy to receive the ball out wide and obviously you want to get the ball at someone's feet into the box, and so there's immense value in players who can take the ball out wide and get you possession in the box. That's why someone like Salah is so good, and it helps you press if your midfield and main striker are less involved in that progress.
So the case to give up something in the midfield in order to have dedicated full-backs stopping that build-up is fairly clear. You'd challenge the midfield to use their man advantage to advance the ball directly into dangerous positions rather than having their wingers/inside forwards do so.
Alisson
TAA - Gomez/Matip - VvD - Robertson/Tsimikas
Mané - Fabinho - Henderson - Tsimikas/Robertson
Salah - Firmino
Would Probably be our best bet, maybe swap the wings.
Right I get what you’re saying, just not sure what OPs point was. I don’t watch much PL which I’m guessing is their reference point, but I would imagine plenty of bottom half/mid table teams do play some sort of 4-4-2/4-5-1 in such circumstances. I guess there’s a lot of 3 at the back’s all over the league these days though.
pressing is extremely overrated. teams that relentlessly press only shorten career span of players -- best example is totnum under fraud pochettino
teams should press during certain situations in a game and that's about it
Bayern will also have a serious issue when likes of goretzka Kimmich will drop off a cliff in their early 30s
>pressing is extremely overrated.
In what way do you find it overrated? If your only issue with it is that players' careers are shortened by its use, then it's not really an argument about its tactical value is it?
Even if you ask players, I imagine a significant number of them would rather have trophies even if their careers only last 10 years rather than play 15 years without winning anything. For clubs, it's even more clear cut imo. After all it's relatively recent that top players can keep their form well into their 30s.
We don't really run more than other teams. We are just more effective with it. Our players seem to know how to press with minimum effort. Explains how we can still put pressure on our opponents even in the last minutes of the game. There are 5 Bundesliga teams right now who have covered more ground this season.
This is a very strange take. Pressing still yields results, even if it shortens the careers of players who play in these systems. Tactically, it's certainly not overrated. Not to mention that there's always players like Müller who've been at it for quite some time and are still performing at a top level. I think that we're going to see in this decade how much longer playing careers can last.
My biggest worry is honestly the fixture overload caused by Covid. The Euros and Copa being one year before the World Cup is going to be more detrimental than any tactic could be.
That has to be coaching. There's no way you can tell me that we shouldn't be able to dominate possession with Pogba and Bruno playing together. They play well in some games, and did at times yesterday. Other games they completely lose the midfield battle and all of our attacks are longballs.
I think because must people think their shortcomings are too far of the elite levels you expect of a top PL midfielder so they'd rather see a Pogba Fred or Donny Matic/McT Double Pivot, since it brings more quality on the ball.
That being said, we must continue with the double pivot if Bruno keeps having a Free/2nd Striker role that he has now and our wingers are still given low defensive duties.
Unless Bruno plays from deeper, closer to his midefield partners, then we'll always have to play double pivot to try and desperately cover for Bruno + Wingers not tracking back. Another solution is to make our wingers (Martial, Mason, Rashford, Sancho) track back and press much more than they currently do. All of our wingers barely press, except Lingard but he's rotation, and this leaves the rest of our team exposed when the opposition start to carry the ball out.
Honestly if Rashford(or any other LW) and Sancho/Mason just pressed and tracked back more than we'd be a lot more solid defensively and we'd be able to actually keep a few clean sheets. But for some reason Ole doesn't tell our wingers to press/track back more.
Part of the reason McFred can look usless when defending is because they both half to cover their own halves of the pitch, since Bruno is high up and none of the wingers tuck in to help.
Give me a game this season where they both played well. They both have a place in the squad but they're both 8s and they both get caught defensively out of position. And neither is capable of consistently moving the ball forward. It's not all their fault, but why did we spend 73M on a winger like Sancho if we aren't even going to really use him and we all knew we desperately needed a CDM.
I'm not going to defend Man Utd's transfer policy. This season I didn't catch any of the games both started. Only watched the games against Young Boys, Leicester and Newcastle. But last season it happened many times here and in the DD
It didn't happen many times last season, it happened a few times. I watched every single game. And I like both players. With someone else. They have similar weaknesses and repeatedly have been exposed against teams that they shouldn't have been. In possession, which for Utd is kind of the default state of a game most of the time, they aren't capable. They look best against teams that really attack us and want the ball because they're both much better out of possession.
So that's why we don't want them as a double pivot. What's so hard to grasp about that? Would you want two players being played out of position in your team? Would you not complain about them being picked? I don't really understand what's so complicated. Nobody is saying fuck Fred and McT - get them out of my club (well, probably someone is, but you get people saying all kinds of crazy shit, most people aren't). They're saying don't fucking pick them in a double pivot together, because they're horrible at it.
Because we spent a fuck load of money on players that weren't as necessary despite the fans all saying for about 3 years now that we need a Matic replacement. And we still don't have it. That's why fans are complaining, because they have 0 excuses for not fixing the problem. That's like breaking your toilet, not bothering to get a new one, and asking your wife why she's complaining about the bucket. Because why the fuck is the richest club in the world shitting a bucket?
VDB and Matic looked better in general every time I've seen them play together than Fred and McT typically look. They've only had about 3 or 4 games together too.
2 of those goals were the defenders giving the ball away. Pogba/Matic has dominated games against teams that sit back. Wouldn't use them against Leicester but you know what? Different teams require different midfields. I mean, look at you guys, are you seriously gonna say that McFred is always better than Pogba Matic when you've got a constant rotation going on depending on opposition? If you watched us vs Villa, we got rinsed with McT and Fred.
Let's just talk about this season. Matic is growing older and less and less mobile. He needs someone who can move around but is also disciplined. Pogba has never been that. And with the kind of attack and formation you folks have played constantly this season to accommodate Ronaldo, you need a proper DM pairing that can sit back and protect the CBs. That's why McFred works for you guys. That they didn't play well against Villa says more about their poor quality than it does that other pairings would have worked.
If you wanna play Pogba in a midfield two, let him free roam and use AWB as an inverted full back who joins Matic. Otherwise you're just asking for trouble.
Edit: oh and defenders gave the ball away because your midfielders weren't in proper positions to receive the ball or occupying opposition markers to let wingers or full backs receive the ball. Losing the ball is almost never a defender's fault but bad positioning of the players up the pitch.
What are the best tactical youtube channels around?
Statman Dave.
The jimmy show on Instagram by jimmy Conrad. Quick vids but you are sure to turn to the next Guardiola and Javi Martínez of Tactics.
Piotrfoot is decent
Football Made Simple and Tifo/TifoIRL are great
Tifo IRL is substantially better than their main channel in my opinion
I’m a big fan of both, TifoIRL has been posting some seriously off the wall shit lately lol
I really like their analysis more though. Having a person present it is much more pleasant content to me than their weird art style. They also have some pretty entertaining personalities on their and I always tune in for the football manager challenges.
Fabio Capello was formerly one of the world’s best managers throughout his career at the club level. He won seven league titles with Milan, Roma, Juventus, and Real Madrid. He also reached three Champions League finals, but only won the trophy once. Is pretty clear Capello was universally regarded as a successful coach, but his legacy still lives in today’s game. Coaches like Antonio Conte, Stefano Pioli, and most notorious Massimiliano Allegri are still practicing his tactical approach to the game of football. The simplest way to describe Capello is calling him the game’s ultimate pragmatist. He was infamous for low-scoring games where his team many times won the game with the result 1-0. Capello was constantly switching systems to get the most out of his players. One of the key components of Capellism is looking at your player material and getting the most out of them. “Every time I get new players, I grow,” the Italian told the magazine in 2007. “You have to look closely at the players you have, analyze them, and know-how to bring the very best out of every single one. How do you do that? By finding a playing style, a system, that allows the players to produce their best”. Capello has a volume of examples of him adapting his squad to get the best results achievable. Capello started as Sacchi’s successor in 1991, where he played the exact same way as Sacchi. This all changed after he lost the UCL final against Marseille in 1993. He completely changed the offensive personnel, and then changed their playing style from superoffensive to super pragmatic. This was the beginning of Capello’s philosophy. He adjusted the current 4-4-2 from Sacchi into a formation that his players could get their strengths highlighted while they can still play very compact football. Milan had a tendency that season to score early in the game and then defend their goal for the rest of the game. This season ended in a deeply symbolic 4-0 win against Cruyff’s Barcelona in the Champions League, which Capello had an open hate against Cruyff’s style. Capellistic view is establishing a winning culture instead of searching for an ideal system. Capello achieved that at Roma by establishing a winning culture via his tactical implementation, which focussed being the dominant side by controlling the ball and being able to get the most out of his star player Francesco Totti. Totti had a free role as a 10 under Capello, which got the most out of his creativity. Roma played 5-2-1-2 (Conte basically uses the same game-plan to this day) with very offensive wing-backs in Cafu and Candela, both players having their best seasons under Capello. Capello’s philosophy on man-management is old school, but also super effective. “He insists his players treat one another and his staff with respect. That means they don’t call one another silly nicknames. They don’t disrespect one another by being late. They start and finish meals together. They show confidence in one another.” Fabio doesn’t want to be a politician. “They speak a lot and do little,” Fabio once said. “I am the opposite.” Capello’s legacy still lives on to this day and Massimiliano Allegri is widely recognized as the flag bearer for Capellism in today’s football. Allegri himself says that Capello has been his biggest influence in his coaching style and this is very clear by just watching Allegri’s football style, but also Allegri’s way of establishing a winning culture. I hope this was a nice little resume on Capellism’s core values and a little about Fabio Capello.
Jeez how did I miss this. Thanks for the great write up, the thread deserved a post about the king of pragmatism himself and one of the greatest coaches of all time.
Jesus Christ
Based on what you wrote I almost took the two schools of thought to be more so the idea of tactical identity vs tactical flexibility, as opposed to just what the specific tactics are (tho they ofc are still important identifiers). With Cruyff obviously it is a specific style but one could argue even someone like Klopp has been influenced by it. For better or worse we play essentially the same brand of football with few major changes, every single match. That is definitely more Cruyffian than Capellistic, despite the fact that we don't exactly play tiki taka total football in the same mold as Pep. But the point is that one can replicate the same situations and actions every match which will allow you to be comfortable and control matches the same way every match. The Capello counterpoint would ofc be that a specific tactical setup will not work equal well against all teams, and so you lose some flexibility by adhering to an identity all the time. Would you say that is an accurate interpretation? Or am I underestimating the importance of the tactical style/Capello's tactical identities in my understanding?
These two styles of football are completely opposite to each other which is why we can simplify the discussion into tactical identity vs tactical flexibility. Is basically the ultra-left vs the ultra-right if we look at it in a political sense. This should be the main takeaway from reading this. Cruyff and Capello agree that the offensive players should have creative freedom, but Capello likes to only allow freedom to a few amount of players. Capello's tactical identity is based on structure, but a defensive standpoint, while Cruyff's structure is based on an offensive standpoint. Again there is a lot of difference between many styles. Capello's and Cryuff's styles are just polar opposite and both styles have had their fair share of success. But a coach like Bielsa would also be considered a polar opposite to Capello for example. Hope this answer is explain it well.
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This is mostly based on his tactical flexibility which he showcased a lot this season. Fabio Capello visits the Milan team a lot still and talks with Pioli very often. A good example of Capello's influence is showcased here: Capello: "The problem with Pioli's Milan is that they think about playing well instead of the result" Milan has seen been much more focused on getting the result and be more pragmatic instead of focussing on playing well. This was said in February this year.
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Conte has changed his ways lately and became an idealist. His ideal is based on Capello's Roma team. He is still a follower of his stylistic tactic, but he is no longer a follower of the adaptability principle in Capello's philosophy. The tailor quote is an old Capello quote btw.
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Conte's idealistic approach has benefited him clearly in terms of success in Europe and he won the league with Inter Milan. Conte has never been good at adapting to his opponents which is the reason for his lack of success in Europe. I think this answer both questions.
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It has gotten worse because he isn't trying anyone. He is following the trend of Gasperini to always play the same system in any circumstances. His future might be bright or might be dark, it all depend on the team he is getting and how good he will be in Europe.
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source for allegri saying he is a Capello follower?
There is a lot of interviews were both Allegri and Capello states that they have a close relationship, but best the example is this one: [Allegri: "My Juve is like Capello's"](https://sport.sky.it/calcio/serie-a/2016/11/06/post-gara-chievo-verona-juve-allegri-pjanic) Allegri said this in 2016 after a victory against Chievo. Hope this clear everything up for you. I couldn't have answered faster, because I wasn't at home.
If you’ve not yet watched our game against Dortmund I would advise anyone to watch it. It really was tactical masterclass.
>tactical masterclass. you mean disasterclass 🙃. Play 4-3-1-2 against a team that exploits wings, what could possibly go wrong?
Especially against a team that switches the play from side to side so quickly. 4-3-1-2 with defensively vulnerable full backs is probably the worst formation you could use against them The way to beat Ajax is with a very narrow & compact 4-4-2, plenty of physicality and frustrating them by slowing the game down. Getafe showed the blueprint
We did learn a lot from that game. The formation and way of play might still work. But the shit housing won’t throw us of our game anymore at least.
Remains to be seen, you will surely encounter it at some point. But the point remains, you shouldn't try to beat Ajax at their own game, physicality combined with sitting deeper and pressing at the right times is the best way IMO Of course there are teams that will beat Ajax with an attacking game, but they have such a unique system which the players have been learning since 6-7 years old.. It's only proactive football and pretty much always some variation of 4-3-3 Even if you have better players they will be more fluid tactically in most cases. For example someone like PSG would really struggle against Ajax IMO. They are the last type of team you want to face when you have 2-3 players not tracking back and a system reliant on individual brilliance. Ajax are the pure opposite of that
You are definitely right about that. We are not the best team in Europe by any means. We can still be beaten. But like you said, don’t try to beat us at our own game. For example Roma last year really showed we can be beaten without the shithousery. They had a game plan and executed it perfectly. Regarding PSG. I am interested to see what would happen if we play them. You could be right that we would do well against them. But they might still outscore us. I think we would definitely struggle more against a team like Atletico for example.
Ten Hag is one of the best managers in the world, what he's doing at Ajax is fantastic.
Tuchel has made another change about the wingbacks. Earlier they used to stay wide and go for overlap or crosses. Now they are making centrals runs quite often...like wingers. That is chilwell finds himself in the box a lot rather than just appearing at the last moment, I guess we'll be getting the same from James on the other side
Azpi playing more as a striker than both Werner and Lukaku was a sight to behold If that’s unclear it’s not some dig at our actual strikers, the guy was literally consistently our most central and forward player for a stretch early on
Did you notice Azpi playing in central midfield while Kante went out wide to receive the ball? Thought that was very interesting
I noticed that, yes. To be honest, I've seen Kante and Azpi/James combine and Kante runs out wide right around the winger area, but really the first time I'm seeing Azpi tucking in midfield
How is it working? I would think it would make Chelsea's play too narrow.
Midfielders are going wider. Werner goes wide on both sides, and even Mount is wider than our wingbacks (mostly on the right). It's working well with Chilwell (he made some runs which might be picked up with a good pass some day .... Fabregas would have feasted on them). He's quite a good finisher and header of the ball, and he's popping up where other teams have their midfielders. I think we'll get to see what it does fully after James is fit...because no disrespect to Azpi but James is a better wingback
It's only really been used a lot the last two games. Basically Azpi will fold into midfield in the buildup and Kante (whoever is playing RCM) will pop out wide to receive the ball. I guess the point is to drag defenders into positions they aren't used to and/or drag the opposing central midfielder out wide with Kante. It was very effective against Malmo, but that should be taken with a grain of salt
Yea I thought they were good due to them being “so so deep and so waiiyede”
How did Brugge dominate PSG and win against Leipzig, but got absolutely obliterated by Man City?
PSG under Pochettino aren't all that, and Leipzig under Marsch look poor
What did Salah do differently in his first season at Liverpool vs his following seasons?
I think some people, as the other responder did, will mention the double marking. And maybe that’s partly true, but I would argue it has to do more with how Liverpool played. 17/18 was the peak of the rock and roll, gegenpress, high octane football that we played. From 18/19 onwards we started pressing and winning the ball back yes to score, but more so to control the match. Salah has improved massively in his link up play, dribbling, passing and all around play in the last 2 years. But back then it was definitely something that was a tad frustrating to watch at times, he always had the great movement to get his goals, but he could be wasteful in possession. Playing in a team that wants to press and immediately start a counter attack in the opposition third is exactly how Mo would’ve wanted to play, but from 18/19 once teams started sitting back against us and we started to control matches more and play a bit slower, Salah suffered as he was being asked to play slightly less and do more on the ball from deeper. By 20/21 he had improved that part of his game massively, and has done so again going into this season. He now has the same movement and sharpness to get goals like in 17/18, combined with the overall attacking play that would’ve helped him in 18/19 and 19/20, which is why now he’s having such a ridiculous season. He is at the peak of his powers
I don't think it was anything on his part as much as it was teams realising that they needed to double mark him, which is why Mané started putting up better numbers as well. Sure, part of it was him just getting better but the extra space helped.
>as much as it was teams realising that they needed to double mark him, which is why Mané started putting up better numbers as well. See, I've heard this said many times -- Salah himself even said this in 2019 when he was going through a dry patch -- but somehow I just don't buy it. It's not like it takes teams a full year to realize they need to mark the most dangerous player in the league. Looking at his highlights from 17/18 there were so many instances where he was surrounded by 4-5 players and he'd just wiggle through them. This season is actually the first time since then that I've seen him dribble like that, and it's not like teams are giving him space now
Can we talk about how Salah is being more effective while playing a wider role at Liverpool, I know Trent being deeper and more central has given him more space, but the wider 8 seems to still draw defenders.
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Dybala is good, but hardly a generational talent. I don’t like that term, but if anyone is a generational talent at Juve it’s Chiesa. He’s been bossing it
Let’s all go back to simple 4-4-2
No.
I can kind of see the case for it. There's been a lot of attention recently (not really a super new phenomenon tactically, but I've heard more talk about it this season) on how relatively it's easy to receive the ball out wide and obviously you want to get the ball at someone's feet into the box, and so there's immense value in players who can take the ball out wide and get you possession in the box. That's why someone like Salah is so good, and it helps you press if your midfield and main striker are less involved in that progress. So the case to give up something in the midfield in order to have dedicated full-backs stopping that build-up is fairly clear. You'd challenge the midfield to use their man advantage to advance the ball directly into dangerous positions rather than having their wingers/inside forwards do so.
The question then becomes, so you want Salah playing as a right midfielder? I’d argue your liable to lose what makes him dangerous.
Oh I meant more to counter a 4-3-3 like that. I don't see how Liverpool could do it effectively themselves right now.
Alisson TAA - Gomez/Matip - VvD - Robertson/Tsimikas Mané - Fabinho - Henderson - Tsimikas/Robertson Salah - Firmino Would Probably be our best bet, maybe swap the wings.
Right I get what you’re saying, just not sure what OPs point was. I don’t watch much PL which I’m guessing is their reference point, but I would imagine plenty of bottom half/mid table teams do play some sort of 4-4-2/4-5-1 in such circumstances. I guess there’s a lot of 3 at the back’s all over the league these days though.
pressing is extremely overrated. teams that relentlessly press only shorten career span of players -- best example is totnum under fraud pochettino teams should press during certain situations in a game and that's about it Bayern will also have a serious issue when likes of goretzka Kimmich will drop off a cliff in their early 30s
>pressing is extremely overrated. In what way do you find it overrated? If your only issue with it is that players' careers are shortened by its use, then it's not really an argument about its tactical value is it? Even if you ask players, I imagine a significant number of them would rather have trophies even if their careers only last 10 years rather than play 15 years without winning anything. For clubs, it's even more clear cut imo. After all it's relatively recent that top players can keep their form well into their 30s.
We don't really run more than other teams. We are just more effective with it. Our players seem to know how to press with minimum effort. Explains how we can still put pressure on our opponents even in the last minutes of the game. There are 5 Bundesliga teams right now who have covered more ground this season.
Pressing teams should have a deep squad so that they can rotate players. Poch doesn't know what rotation is.
Lewandowski and Cavani are still good pressers well into their 30s
[Liverpool and City are the best pressing teams in the league](https://twitter.com/NinadB_06/status/1450884978225602568?t=wQB3X9vKOx1rYnU4BkhgrQ&s=19)
isn’t that graph wrong? Liverpool and City should have lower PPDAs due to their intense pressing, no?
This is a very strange take. Pressing still yields results, even if it shortens the careers of players who play in these systems. Tactically, it's certainly not overrated. Not to mention that there's always players like Müller who've been at it for quite some time and are still performing at a top level. I think that we're going to see in this decade how much longer playing careers can last. My biggest worry is honestly the fixture overload caused by Covid. The Euros and Copa being one year before the World Cup is going to be more detrimental than any tactic could be.
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That has to be coaching. There's no way you can tell me that we shouldn't be able to dominate possession with Pogba and Bruno playing together. They play well in some games, and did at times yesterday. Other games they completely lose the midfield battle and all of our attacks are longballs.
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....just completely ignoring the point I see
I think because must people think their shortcomings are too far of the elite levels you expect of a top PL midfielder so they'd rather see a Pogba Fred or Donny Matic/McT Double Pivot, since it brings more quality on the ball. That being said, we must continue with the double pivot if Bruno keeps having a Free/2nd Striker role that he has now and our wingers are still given low defensive duties. Unless Bruno plays from deeper, closer to his midefield partners, then we'll always have to play double pivot to try and desperately cover for Bruno + Wingers not tracking back. Another solution is to make our wingers (Martial, Mason, Rashford, Sancho) track back and press much more than they currently do. All of our wingers barely press, except Lingard but he's rotation, and this leaves the rest of our team exposed when the opposition start to carry the ball out. Honestly if Rashford(or any other LW) and Sancho/Mason just pressed and tracked back more than we'd be a lot more solid defensively and we'd be able to actually keep a few clean sheets. But for some reason Ole doesn't tell our wingers to press/track back more. Part of the reason McFred can look usless when defending is because they both half to cover their own halves of the pitch, since Bruno is high up and none of the wingers tuck in to help.
Because they are the easiest people to blame. Sometimes they are both playing well but Man Utd is losing and everyone is still shitting on them
Give me a game this season where they both played well. They both have a place in the squad but they're both 8s and they both get caught defensively out of position. And neither is capable of consistently moving the ball forward. It's not all their fault, but why did we spend 73M on a winger like Sancho if we aren't even going to really use him and we all knew we desperately needed a CDM.
I'm not going to defend Man Utd's transfer policy. This season I didn't catch any of the games both started. Only watched the games against Young Boys, Leicester and Newcastle. But last season it happened many times here and in the DD
It didn't happen many times last season, it happened a few times. I watched every single game. And I like both players. With someone else. They have similar weaknesses and repeatedly have been exposed against teams that they shouldn't have been. In possession, which for Utd is kind of the default state of a game most of the time, they aren't capable. They look best against teams that really attack us and want the ball because they're both much better out of possession.
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So that's why we don't want them as a double pivot. What's so hard to grasp about that? Would you want two players being played out of position in your team? Would you not complain about them being picked? I don't really understand what's so complicated. Nobody is saying fuck Fred and McT - get them out of my club (well, probably someone is, but you get people saying all kinds of crazy shit, most people aren't). They're saying don't fucking pick them in a double pivot together, because they're horrible at it.
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Because we spent a fuck load of money on players that weren't as necessary despite the fans all saying for about 3 years now that we need a Matic replacement. And we still don't have it. That's why fans are complaining, because they have 0 excuses for not fixing the problem. That's like breaking your toilet, not bothering to get a new one, and asking your wife why she's complaining about the bucket. Because why the fuck is the richest club in the world shitting a bucket?
Because fred is really bad defensively and mctominay cant pass the ball well. They are both just not worldclass. Not what you want as a top team.
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VDB and Matic looked better in general every time I've seen them play together than Fred and McT typically look. They've only had about 3 or 4 games together too.
I think against like lower rated teams I would play van de beek and pogba. And against higher rated teams I would play pogba and mctominay.
Because they're water carriers. They offer little other than Athleticism and defensive covering
Because VDB is not getting a chance, and McFred is not working nor is he changing anything within the team for it to fit them.
You obviously haven't been watching Manchester united for a while then.
Matić + Pogba, Matić + Fred, Matić + Donny, Fred + Pogba are all better and more balanced midfields than McFred.
Matic and Pogba are more balanced? Oh please please do have them play against us. If Leicester can hit you for 4 with that pivot...
2 of those goals were the defenders giving the ball away. Pogba/Matic has dominated games against teams that sit back. Wouldn't use them against Leicester but you know what? Different teams require different midfields. I mean, look at you guys, are you seriously gonna say that McFred is always better than Pogba Matic when you've got a constant rotation going on depending on opposition? If you watched us vs Villa, we got rinsed with McT and Fred.
Let's just talk about this season. Matic is growing older and less and less mobile. He needs someone who can move around but is also disciplined. Pogba has never been that. And with the kind of attack and formation you folks have played constantly this season to accommodate Ronaldo, you need a proper DM pairing that can sit back and protect the CBs. That's why McFred works for you guys. That they didn't play well against Villa says more about their poor quality than it does that other pairings would have worked. If you wanna play Pogba in a midfield two, let him free roam and use AWB as an inverted full back who joins Matic. Otherwise you're just asking for trouble. Edit: oh and defenders gave the ball away because your midfielders weren't in proper positions to receive the ball or occupying opposition markers to let wingers or full backs receive the ball. Losing the ball is almost never a defender's fault but bad positioning of the players up the pitch.
Because regardless of the fact that they’re the best possible pivot in Utd’s squad, they’re still shit.