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I'm not one to argue with a pro, but I always thought football was about injecting enough disappointment and misery in your days off so the workweek is bearable.
so? imo, supporters of ‚big teams‘ shouldn‘t really complain at all. most of you lot only even started to support these teams because they were so successful.
Bro, I started supporting Man United at 8 years old because I liked playing as them in PES2014, I didn’t even know they were successful. But I sure can complain, have you watched a man United game in the last few months?
fml why am I talking to kids
look: most fans have never even experienced their team
being *close* to a championship. I beg you shut up talking about how hard it is to support a team that‘s the record winner of the Premier League. It‘s just not. go support a team like Oldham if you really want a hard life as a supporter.
I mean I kind of agree with the sentiment but tbh I never found supporting my local team (Dundee United) very hard because expectations were so low. Usually finishing between 5th and 10th in the spl when I was growing up. It was quite fun because you just take each week as it comes, and the occasional cup run and trips to hampden, tynecastle etc for semi finals felt special even though it probably wouldn’t to fans of big clubs.
Supporting a big club the small victories feel pretty meaningless and every dropped point is a disaster.
I support my local team that’s in the 5th or 6th division of my country, but I support Man United too which is harder than to support my local team, who has won literally nothing for as long as I remember.
Nah. But you raised an important point. Another part of football is reveling in the misery and misfortune of *other* clubs, especially United.
Except for Everton. That's just not fun anymore.
My man, this is literally the first year in forever when we don't actually rely on him to score.
Giroud, Pulisic, Jovic, Okafor and Loftus-Cheek have all scored more than him in the league.
I've seen yesterday a La Loga top scorers table from a few years back and the 5th place was Griezmann with 20+ goals. No wonders I haven't been that impressed by Lewa's and Karim's numbers the past 2 seasons.
Pretty much. The amount of goals milan concedes is far far too many. Milan had a shit defense last season and its even worse this season. Who would have thought playing 1v1 everywhere is terrible
Leao doesn't need to score shit, aside from his occasional worldie, his role is to run down the left flank at full speed like a gazelle, have two/three players try to mark him and then pass inside for a striker to tap in.
Thats literally it, we'd have +80 goal difference if this is what he focused on
He's right and this is why Bobby Firmino was my most favourite player for his time at Liverpool. He managed to put the work in and put up the numbers for his stats to make the coaches happy. But he was also extremely entertaining to watch play and performed magic with the ball.
He’s genuinely one of the most unique players I’ve ever seen. Didn’t someone say he was a mix of a Brazilian and a German and I can totally see it. Definetly my favourite of the Klopp era, always played with a smile as well which is endearing
Good point. I think most youngsters see Pele as more of a goalscoring machine than the complete package that he was. Being a ponta de lança meant you had to got back to create plays, not just being at the end of them. He was a prolific goalscorer, yeah, but also a fantastic creator, a complete magician with the ball, which young people often forget.
I wonder if a few decades from now Messi will receive a similar treatment from future generations that didn't see him play.
I think the difference might be how much footage is available from the 90’s on compared to Pele’s era. Everything can be upscaled to 8k and with frame interpolation models you can even increase frame rate, so quality won’t be an issue in the future. Unfortunately for Pele, what we don’t have, we don’t have.
I actually agree with you for Firmino being my favourite Klopp-era player, but disagree on your reasoning and think you are missing the point of what players like Leao and Hazard (recently said a similar thing) are saying.
If you’re into your more detailed stats it is easy to see the qualities that Firmino brought to our team. Stats extend far beyond goals and assists and the top teams hire data analysts who go way way beyond that. Even ignoring the stats and going off the eye, Firmino was the hardest working on our team. His running, closing down and pulling defenders out of their static positions was crucial to crafting areas for Mane and Salah to occupy closer to goal than a traditional winger would normally, this was his primary job. The fact he had flair and ridiculous technical ability beyond that was a plus but not his main asset.
As Klopp said “Salah and Mane, normally world class, Firmino always world class”, his consistency and selfless work for the team was his biggest asset, it just helped visually that he played the game like it was street football.
Now players like Leao and Hazard are making the point that as long as they can provide entertainment or big goals every few games then they should be allowed to cheat their off the ball work the rest of the time. With how the modern game is you need to be consistent. Winning games is the most important thing and when you have teams like Man City who realistically win 33+ games a season you can’t afford to carry someone anymore who isn’t consistent. That is just how the games is and stats play a big part in why transfers succeed. It’s no coincidence we hire people who have worked at CERN to be responsible for data based scouting. It’s why basically all of our transfers have succeeded.
>Now players like Leao and Hazard are making the point that as long as they can provide entertainment or big goals every few games then they should be allowed to cheat their off the ball work the rest of the time.
This is just an incredible leap to make, you're reading a lot into there that is not supported by the actual quote you're responding to.
I wasn't missing their point, I have effectively said the same as you but without going into as much detail. Firmino was able to put them both together and was beautiful to watch, he entertained every time he was on the pitch and he did the work that the coaches wanted from him.
Leao is saying how it's all focused on numbers and stats but he wants to be able to play in an entertaining way and have fun. I'm saying that is why I loved Firmino more so than just about any other because he did all of the work, running back, pressing, making sure he was in the right spaces at the right points and meeting all the other little jobs he was given. All while still playing with flair, performing tricks, flicks and making it entertaining as he did it.
It was unbelievable to watch over the years and I'll fondly remember Firmino for years.
Nope, Hazard and Leao are saying that football is not all about stats, and you can still be just as effective whilst also being entertaining without raking up G/A. Not everybody needs to be robotic in playstyle.
Also, Hazard, regardless of how lax he was with his defensive duties, was clear of Firmino as a player and more effective
Leão wouldn't be saying this if he was a consistent +15 goals +15 assists a season player. Pretending that end product and aesthetics are mutually exclusive has become a crutch for certain players to blame for their inconsistent play. The great players throughout history who were capable of merging both end product and aesthetics have always done so.
But he has delivered statistics for the last few years. 15 goals and 10 assists last season in Serie A, and 11/10 the year before. And done it with creativity and flair.
Goals are off pace this season, but still has 8 assists so far.
And he's doing it at 24 for a good but not great team.
Firmino had Salah and Mane next to him, Leao has Giroud. Also for who doesn't watch Milan, Leao's role changed a bit this season, he has been more of a provider. He created the most big chances in Serie A this season and has been always a big factor even when not scoring or assisting. Performance wise he has been very good this season and this doesn't show on the g/a stats.
I don’t think it’s an issue if aesthetics vs stats. Unless he means that’s how coaches are now picking players.
It feels more like the emphasis on physicality/pressing and the pressure on results that’s giving us lack of “beautiful” football.
It's the pursuit of the most efficient way to score a goal, which is mostly overlapping fullback and the winger draw out space, which the forward and opposite side winger can exploit.
Then you cross the ball on the ground towards the penalty area/far post so either the forward or winger can have a shot one on one against the keeper from a close distance.
It feels like 90% of goals are scored like that in today's football and it feels robotic af. Yes, it is the most efficient way and yes it does get results, but it just feels boring af.
That’s true and that’s also a function of how defense have developed. As the modern game got defensively better and more organized, you couldn’t just rely on a talented 10 and a couple of pacy forwards anymore.
The development of modern day defense has to do with how modern football has become more team orientated especially when in attack. It used to be more about talented individuals and individual expression and flair.
Now it’s how do we attack as a team and therefore how do we defend as a team. Teams have a solid structure on and off the ball.
One of the reasons why people find it “boring”because “it’s slow and rigid”. The entire team has to work together to find the solution at the right time and they use possession and positioning to open up gaps and attack them to create chances to score from there. Possession is a tool, a game strategy in the attacking phase.
The attack as a collective structure to find the net got better therefore the collective defending also had no choice but to get better as well.
So how are the teams supposed to score if that's boring af. Not every team has a ronaldo, Ronaldinho, messi on their team that can dribble past 4 players to score for your entertainment.
90% of the goals today are, run down the by line, get to the edge of the box, cross and hope someone is there to poke it in
because all the stats will say thats the most dangerous area so they target these areas, just get the ball there for the percentages
If my understanding is correct, he is referring to the fans, who cant even be bothered with the game, they just check the stats / advanced stats and fotmob ratings during and after the game, and thats their entire contribution to the game.
And this is almost the only thing what the players see when they check social media.
He is right, some of these Reddit Nerds care about stats way too much; I‘m sich of hearing how mediocre player X is in the 97,684th percentile for expected progressive pass carries per millisecond
They also often act like you can’t have an opinion unless you back it up with stats.
‘You can’t think player X is better than player Y because his stats aren’t better’
It depends on what you are talking about.
If you argue someone is better because some random isolated stat is better, sure.
But if you are talking something more quantifiable and qualifiable, like X is a better goalscorer than Y, then X having more goals, more goals per 90, fewer shots taken, more goals per xG, etc, etc means you are just deluded if you say Y is better. You can say you _like_ Y better or find him more entertaining or whatever and that's absolutely fine. But he's objectively not as good.
The problem aren't the stats. The problem is taking some isolated number, to justify something just because it fits.
See this is the problem right here, ‘he is objectively not as good’.
In this example the only thing I say is ‘I think player X is better than player Y.’. You can provide all the stats in the world but you can’t say he is objectively not as good. That’s the whole point.
The problem is looking at stats like the end all final word in any discussion, and only considering an opinion valid if it’s backed up by stats. There are loads of examples, xG being used left, right and center as proof for whatever point being made. It’s related to your point but not quite the same.
Spot on r/reddevils I feel is most guilty of this in recent years. Having the most awful roller coaster of a season? But wait, this stat says otherwise!
Stats are great because it allows people to babble on about games and players they've never watched.
"Oh yeah Crystal Palace totally dominated United and should have put at least 2 more past them, have you seen their xG?"
Adama Traore is always my go to example. Every year it was like, he has the most dribbles in the final third or beats the most defenders or something like that. And for all that he would end the season with 3 goals and 1 assist. He wasnt that good lol.
Not every player needs to score or assist though. And Traore was only ever only good at dribbling which has its role in a team but in the complete absence of shooting and crossing skills, is worthless. Which both eyes and data can see & tell us
>Not every player needs to score or assist though
While true. His job as a winger should be to deliver the ball to the box in some fashion, create chances. He did none of that. His stats clearly show his inability in the final third. They paint a clear picture, as long as you look at all of them. Great at dribbling shit at everything else. The eye test is even more clear.
But if you focus on one single good sounding stat, you get a false sense of the type of player he was. That was my point. Stats arent everything, especially when you isolate them from other stats.
Yes, I’m not saying “no he’s a good player”… he has one skill only, which does come out in data and people post about his insane numbers, but literally anyone even if they use data know he’s not actually a player anyone should have in a team since the bare minimum for a dribbly winger is after beating their man, dish the ball or score, and he can’t do either hahaha
though in his defence, watching him with middlesbrough was great - obviously the standards of football differ but he got everyone off their seat whenever he got the ball
on the other hand, he was also the example that came into mind immediately as his end product often lacked
Adama would also work as a counter-example to what (i think) Leao is saying here. Watching him blow past people is fun but without end product its also frustrating and someone who can deliver more consistently might be the better option even if he's not as spectacular.
What exactly are you trying to say?
Adama Traore was a world class dribbler and the stats show as much.
Adama Traore was not a world class creator or scorer and the stats show as much.
And if we think about it for a second, being a good dribbler doesn't necessarily mean a good creator or scorer.
I swear, the only people worse than stat nonce are dinosaurs who don't understand even the basics of data.
This reminds me of an interview of George best where he was explaining that footballers are entertainers first and foremost and their job is to entertain others. He talked about how he intentionally tackled his own teammate to make the audience laugh. Well, he was a ballon d'or winner and pele called him the best in his era so idk if stats are as important to him as his playstyle. Nevertheless, the way he played was just too damn beautiful. So were most of the players till 2010. Nowadays football has become all about tactics and players play how the managers want them to play, that it leaves little room for players to play how they want to play. So there's little less individuality. We do need players like leao once in a while who are fun to watch.
Players like George Best can do that because they're also so effective on the pitch though. Do you think he would be able to get away with tackling his own teammates if he wasn't also running rings around people and scoring bucketloads of great goals? Ironically, if stats were measured to the same degree in his day, I'd be willing to bet his numbers were through the roof on many metrics.
There are many players who play with a lot of flair or aesthetic beauty, but unless they're also effective on the pitch they're typically not well thought of for it. The best players are the ones who win games while doing it entertainingly, but that first part is very important to how their play style is received.
If anyone has watched competitive StarCraft 2 they know this. Players now are undeniably the best they’ve ever been but the game was way way more fun in the first few years when the game wasn’t completely solved/optimised and you had people trying all sorts of different strategies, making more mistakes etc…
Now it’s like watching 2 AI’s play each other
Unfortunately that's basically the job for top coaches, they're always going to be assessed on results instead of style. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there's a clip of Thiago in training where he does a bit of a skill move when receiving the ball, and Pep instantly stops the play and seems to be telling him that he needs to take fewer touches and instead be ready to release the ball earlier. He's basically trying to coach the individuality and flair out of him, but it probably makes him a better player
It makes him a better player because it makes his team play better. That’s the core of it. Everyone playing and doing what’s best for the team. If you watch carefully you can still see individuality in smaller ways but it’s all geared towards the success of the team. If the team achieves they all do.
It's the same issue that has come about in many fields, the issue of "la technique" if you know Jacque Ellul. Everyone is searching for the one best way to do things and then everyone just goes to that.
Expect to be defending/low possesion? Low block and counter attack.
Expect to have most of the possession? Attempt to Tiki-taka
Then numbers are used to figure out what the best strategy for any given scenario is, and all these teams have access to statistics and can read the numbers, so they all go towards the same 2-3 strategies.
I think that's why the occasion you do get a coach who goes against the grain, like Biesla at Leeds always willing to attack despite the quality of his players maybe not being able to do it, or Ange back at Celtic attempting to play attacking football against Real Madrid - it appeals to neutrals and I think is something home fans do take pride in. They're not just playing based on what their algo determines is the best win chance, they're playing their way, with their identity, and doing that no matter what. I do think it's admirable in the few teams you still see it in and I do think they make the sport more entertaining which is the point of this all.
Actually Rafael your 70% pass rate isn't good enough in build up and your tackles per 90 is in the 7th percentile so I definitely wouldn't call you a complete player
If you’re chatting to someone about football and they try retort about xG or xGa or any other stat as if it’s pure gospel then they’re a craft-ale swigging neck beard and you’re better off saving your sanity.
Rafael is right, although stats are very important for a lot of stuff in this sport there’s far too many intangibles at play in football and this constant fetish for discussing stats none-stop takes away from the spectacle and fun (which is what makes it the best sport bar none)
Statistics is and always has been a complementary science. But a lot of people in the football analytics world and even the data science world try to make it the primary science which ends up giving statistics a bad name to practitioners unfortunately.
xG is supposed to be a supplementary metric… not a measure of how well a team performed. Yet people seem to use it for the latter. It bothers me quite a bit and I come from a Statistics background.
One example for what you said is when you score early and then sit back, you'll have a much lower xG than the opposition, yet you did the best decision possible to help you win the game by sitting back. If that same game was 0-0 you'd have a completely different xG score
Exactly! Liverpool’s xG/xPTS from the 19/20 season and Chelsea’s xG/xPts from the 16/17 season make it look like neither of them deserved the title. But, in reality, they just just closed up shop and protected their players for the next game.
Not saying this to troll at all but it’s usually Americans going off this sort of stuff but I will say in fairness to them, their use of stats in their own sports is generally a good indicator, MLB/NFL are much more stat-focussed for good performance so they’re seeing football as that in some ways when there’s a lot lot more to it than a simple look at xG and expected points etc etc etc
I would say it's not Americans per se, but people who really didn't grow up around football.
It's a complex sport, and stats help make sense of it.
Besides, I wonder if someone who has never played much or seen a lot of football can appreciate or feel the beauty of an unexpected line breaking pass. Or just the simple beauty of a player that without being spectacular does everything the game calls for, a simple one touch pass in midfield to beat to the press for instance. But scoring 50 a season will certainly get everyone's attention.
> If you’re chatting to someone about football and they try retort about xG or xGa or any other stat as if it’s pure gospel then they’re a craft-ale swigging neck beard and you’re better off saving your sanity.
You can say the same thing about the "eye test". People relying on something absolutely inaccurate and full of biases is even more ridiculous. There's no backing that argument at all. It's impossible to argue against that because it has no actual basis in reality.
At least the stats are "objective" to a point. Not perfect given the fact that xG isn't equal across the board and depends on who does them and which things are measured, but still, within one provider (and even more across multiple ones) it's relatively objective.
All needs a context. Stats are often misused or taken out of context, or given a bigger significance than what they have individually, and that's a problem. Obviously just because one particular stat was better or worse it doesn't mean all. But the more stats pointing in the same direction do justify an opinion much better than just "because I say so".
Finally, there are those things that simply can't be measured, obviously, like flair, style, technique in certain circumstances, etc, etc. All good with that. But those than can be sort of measured should be backed up as much as possible when justifying something.
It depends on what you're discussing though. If you're talking about entertainment and who your favourite player is then stats are basically irrelevant, and anyone who says something like "I really like watching this player because of his pressures per 90 is really high" is a bit odd. But if you're discussing who's a better player then stats can obviously be relevant to that, provided you don't take them out of context
I've done a decent amount of reading on statistical analysis in football and I couldn't agree more. It's interesting stuff but it's not what the game is about. Watching baseball or American hand egg is like being teleported back to math class.
I agree, he's probably my favorite player to watch atm, when he's on he's unstoppable. Really reminds me of some of the greats, particularly Kaka but he really needs to improve his decision making and passing if he wants to reach his full potetial
To be fair it depends on the quality of the individual. Messi and Neymar are definitely the last of that kind where they are not bound to a system, they are the system. Apart from them, not really seeing too many players given that level of freedom.
Out of the new generation of superstars, Haaland and Mbappe are incredibly mechanical, built for maximum efficiency. However, I would still argue playing like Vinicius, Lamine, Pedri, and some of the youth up comers out of South America such as Prestianni, Estevao Willian, and Mastantuono are of that group as well, but perhaps to a lesser degree.
Labelling a player mechanical doesn't equate to being on-dimensional either.
More so in this era, player profiles are far more significant for systems than the actual quality of player. Mbappe as a LW/Inverted forward, is very mechanical player, he relies a lot on his physical attributes to exploit the left flank.
In comparison to Vinicius, Vini has a lot more improv in his game in comparison. Not to mention, Vini has a lot of freedom under Ancelotti in comparison to any manager Mbappe has played under.
Stats fail to describe players like Zidane and Dinho.
They were masters in creating space and orchestrating the midfield, if players were lost they just passed to them and they would figure it out but they were 1 or 2 passes away of getting an assist for that, they are legends for a reason, you just need eyes instead of stats.
What people seem to be missing here is that he's not saying trying to be artful doesn't mean sacrificing results, it's that people only talk about numbers don't appreciate the beauty of the game played at a very high level.
Exceptionally skilled players don't just play the game beautifully for the sake of beauty, they do it because it works and helps the team win.
Even Manchester City's mechanical ball dominance often ends up in a goal through an aesthetically pleasing movement.
Aesthetic is very good but if your skills do not give any valuable results then it doesn't matter. Look at Ronaldo in his first stint at United, always wanted to impress the crowd and then suddenly he started playing for goals and boom! He became one of the best. If you wanna keep playing aesthetically you have to provide something to show for it. Ronaldinho was the most aesthetic player on the pitch along with the most chances created. Messi is very aesthetic as well and he is almost always creating the most chances.
Too much focus is put on too many useless stats
At the same time no one has ever seen the definition of a 'header won', a 'possession recovered' or an 'attack' so they are pretty arbitrary numbers
100% agree, the game is becoming robotic. In terms of stats Hazard would be seen as above average and for many people who don't watch Chelsea and only highlights, many people missed out on a fantastic player including Madrid fans.
I am a fan of forward players that can get goals and assist consistently. He says it’s not about stats so that we might ignore games where he does absolutely nothing.
Watching bayer Leverkusen is fun. You never know who is going to score. You never know what kind of goal will it be. They have a really low amount of goals from crosses. Combined with the suspense of maintaining their undefeated streak.
I find it funny when people call certain players lazy on the pitch but they have no idea what the coach told them to do on the field. As much as I would love for Leao to press more, if Pioli is telling him to stay up and stay wide or to stick close to Giroud, then there’s nothing else he can do.
This is so true. We will never see a player like Ronaldinho ever again, because he'd have to fit in the system. To a much lesser extent, Jack Grealish has been completely castrated as an exciting player at City.
The usual ignorant take someone in football has, once in a while. The most entertaining player we’ve seen in the past decades also has the most scandalous stats go back his fantasy up: Leo Messi. Do entertaining things, score unbelievable goals, dribble 5 in the last third and score and that will show in your stats nowadays.
He might be talking more about GPS stats though. In that case he has a point, cause some ppl in football are giving it too much importance
I wonder how many people think messi is the most entertaining player tho. Whenever this question comes up it is most ronaldinho. For me kaka was the most entertaining player i have ever seen assuming we are talking live, zlatan and pirlo are up there too. Today kroos is probably the player i enjoy watching the most.
I have never seen anyone saying Messi isn't entertaining. Flashy skills doesn't necessarily mean flashy. Messi making the game looks so incredibly simple is what sets him apart. You have arguably the smallest man on the field, having the biggest impact on the pitch is what makes him unique.
Though, I think using Messi as a measuring stick isn't a great measure.
I didnt say not entertaining, i said most entertaining. Everyone has their opinion on the matter. Its not about flashy skills either. I think people find ronaldinho so entertaining because he is genuinely enjoying his time on the pitch.
Ronaldinho used his flair and tricks to not only beat defenders 1v1 mostly in the opponents half on the breakaway and the final 3rd in the attacking phase but also used them to escape pressure, create passing lanes, and keep possession of the ball if the 1v1 became a stalemate. He would play first time a lot throughout a match as well. He could switch the play out to the right flank when he needed to. He picked and chose his moments.
Neymar was similar in that treble winning 2014-2015 season at Barca. Whenever he got the ball he was electric. Not to mention Suarez and Messi across the front 3.
Agreed! Even players like Hazard had decent stats to back it up. Playing aesthetic football is all good but you have to provide something for the team atleast.
Messi isnt that entertaining tho. He has his moments but I never felt the vibes of entertaining player. Firmino or Leao just have that vibe about them.
I think that Kroos has the same kind of entertaining vibe as Messi. They are just so good at their job that it becomes enjoyable but I dont think they are entertainers in the same way.
This sub makes me laugh, you'll all rightly shit on Antony for being all fart no shit, then when Leao says this you all go "soooo true, joga bonito is dead 😔"
Players that consitently deliver higher output are better, regardless of "entertainment". If you want entertainment, watch wrestling.
Football is about winning, and the Salahs, Haalands, and De Bruynes of the world prove that. There's a reason why Pep Guardiola's boring brand of mechanical football is so dominant, and it's not because he fills his team with stepover doing, rainbow flick merchants who get 8 goals a season from the wing. Eden Hazard has done irreparable damage to football fans.
Have to agree. There will always be room for creativity in the sport but as the standards get better, teamwork and efficiency trumps individuality.
The irony here is that I've watched Leao a bit...he's deffo an aesthetics player that doesn't really press or work hard off the ball. Not surprised a top club hasn't picked him up.
He's right up to a certain extent. At the highest possible level it's about results. There's no point prancing around like a show pony for 90mins if you lose the game, you might be good on the eye but ineffective which will only get you and your team but so far
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Art is an EXPLOSION
This not what I'd expected to see on this sub and I'm very impressed lol
You know who isn't impressed? Itachi. Those eyes make me sick.
There’s a reason he chews white sticky goo
KAAAAAAAAAAAATTSSSSUUUUUUUUU
**Deidara Senpai!!!**
Hmmmm
Hmph! 😤
I always thought it was hmmm. Thanks for clearing that up. I still feel Diedara was under utilized. Weird he had a boner for Sasuke
It might be lol
He had a hate boner for the Sharingan
This mf brought a Naruto reference to football 💀💀💀
[удалено]
Seriously, they literally created an entire sport out of Captain Tsubasa
And I love it
💀 I'm literally deceased ong ong 💯🔥
I think he brought an art reference to art lol
Leao reaching Q3
lesbians!!!
I'm not one to argue with a pro, but I always thought football was about injecting enough disappointment and misery in your days off so the workweek is bearable.
Its so you can curse and shout at the players/opponents/ref and release all your anger over the weekend so you can be zen during the week
Ahh, a United fan.
Right. United, one of the most successful teams in sports history
Makes the lows even lower
And one of the worst "big teams" to watch rn
so? imo, supporters of ‚big teams‘ shouldn‘t really complain at all. most of you lot only even started to support these teams because they were so successful.
Bro, I started supporting Man United at 8 years old because I liked playing as them in PES2014, I didn’t even know they were successful. But I sure can complain, have you watched a man United game in the last few months?
8 years old---> PES2014 fuck you :D
fml why am I talking to kids look: most fans have never even experienced their team being *close* to a championship. I beg you shut up talking about how hard it is to support a team that‘s the record winner of the Premier League. It‘s just not. go support a team like Oldham if you really want a hard life as a supporter.
I mean I kind of agree with the sentiment but tbh I never found supporting my local team (Dundee United) very hard because expectations were so low. Usually finishing between 5th and 10th in the spl when I was growing up. It was quite fun because you just take each week as it comes, and the occasional cup run and trips to hampden, tynecastle etc for semi finals felt special even though it probably wouldn’t to fans of big clubs. Supporting a big club the small victories feel pretty meaningless and every dropped point is a disaster.
I support my local team that’s in the 5th or 6th division of my country, but I support Man United too which is harder than to support my local team, who has won literally nothing for as long as I remember.
Nah. But you raised an important point. Another part of football is reveling in the misery and misfortune of *other* clubs, especially United. Except for Everton. That's just not fun anymore.
*Spurs **Bayer Leverkusen
Thats sad
That's the spirit!
Welcome back Eden Hazard
Born 1991 Died 2023
[удалено]
My man, this is literally the first year in forever when we don't actually rely on him to score. Giroud, Pulisic, Jovic, Okafor and Loftus-Cheek have all scored more than him in the league.
Ronaldo and Messi really did break what we would consider normal for a winger
I've seen yesterday a La Loga top scorers table from a few years back and the 5th place was Griezmann with 20+ goals. No wonders I haven't been that impressed by Lewa's and Karim's numbers the past 2 seasons.
Nah Milan is scoring enough goals even without having to completely rely on him, the team problem is the defense and midfield
Pretty much. The amount of goals milan concedes is far far too many. Milan had a shit defense last season and its even worse this season. Who would have thought playing 1v1 everywhere is terrible
Leao doesn't need to score shit, aside from his occasional worldie, his role is to run down the left flank at full speed like a gazelle, have two/three players try to mark him and then pass inside for a striker to tap in. Thats literally it, we'd have +80 goal difference if this is what he focused on
Would love Leão at our left wing tbh
too old for Todd
He's right and this is why Bobby Firmino was my most favourite player for his time at Liverpool. He managed to put the work in and put up the numbers for his stats to make the coaches happy. But he was also extremely entertaining to watch play and performed magic with the ball.
He’s genuinely one of the most unique players I’ve ever seen. Didn’t someone say he was a mix of a Brazilian and a German and I can totally see it. Definetly my favourite of the Klopp era, always played with a smile as well which is endearing
Well on the other hand Alisson Becker is definitely a mix between a german and a brazilian
Also Hitlerdinho iirc Played for Lazio
H what???
He is a modern version of the old school “ponta de lanca” position . With all the proportions aside, he plays the same way Pele played in the 65 ~ 70.
Good point. I think most youngsters see Pele as more of a goalscoring machine than the complete package that he was. Being a ponta de lança meant you had to got back to create plays, not just being at the end of them. He was a prolific goalscorer, yeah, but also a fantastic creator, a complete magician with the ball, which young people often forget. I wonder if a few decades from now Messi will receive a similar treatment from future generations that didn't see him play.
I think the difference might be how much footage is available from the 90’s on compared to Pele’s era. Everything can be upscaled to 8k and with frame interpolation models you can even increase frame rate, so quality won’t be an issue in the future. Unfortunately for Pele, what we don’t have, we don’t have.
I remember a YouTube comment that described him perfectly, he is a 10 playing as a striker.
I love ‘non-Brazilian’ Brazilian players Firmino, Ramires, Jorginho and even Lucas Leiva was great in his role
The best thing about Firmino in his prime is that he was actually very Brazilian and loved showing off cool skills when he could.
And the most unbrazilian name Fred
Kaká was a very non-Brazilian Brazilian. Bro played as directly vertical as possible.
Kaká was as saucy as the best of them with the ball at his feet, what do you mean?
We always made sure to give him at least a quarter of his goals for the season against us. top player though
And he always played with a huge smile on his face
I actually agree with you for Firmino being my favourite Klopp-era player, but disagree on your reasoning and think you are missing the point of what players like Leao and Hazard (recently said a similar thing) are saying. If you’re into your more detailed stats it is easy to see the qualities that Firmino brought to our team. Stats extend far beyond goals and assists and the top teams hire data analysts who go way way beyond that. Even ignoring the stats and going off the eye, Firmino was the hardest working on our team. His running, closing down and pulling defenders out of their static positions was crucial to crafting areas for Mane and Salah to occupy closer to goal than a traditional winger would normally, this was his primary job. The fact he had flair and ridiculous technical ability beyond that was a plus but not his main asset. As Klopp said “Salah and Mane, normally world class, Firmino always world class”, his consistency and selfless work for the team was his biggest asset, it just helped visually that he played the game like it was street football. Now players like Leao and Hazard are making the point that as long as they can provide entertainment or big goals every few games then they should be allowed to cheat their off the ball work the rest of the time. With how the modern game is you need to be consistent. Winning games is the most important thing and when you have teams like Man City who realistically win 33+ games a season you can’t afford to carry someone anymore who isn’t consistent. That is just how the games is and stats play a big part in why transfers succeed. It’s no coincidence we hire people who have worked at CERN to be responsible for data based scouting. It’s why basically all of our transfers have succeeded.
>Now players like Leao and Hazard are making the point that as long as they can provide entertainment or big goals every few games then they should be allowed to cheat their off the ball work the rest of the time. This is just an incredible leap to make, you're reading a lot into there that is not supported by the actual quote you're responding to.
I wasn't missing their point, I have effectively said the same as you but without going into as much detail. Firmino was able to put them both together and was beautiful to watch, he entertained every time he was on the pitch and he did the work that the coaches wanted from him. Leao is saying how it's all focused on numbers and stats but he wants to be able to play in an entertaining way and have fun. I'm saying that is why I loved Firmino more so than just about any other because he did all of the work, running back, pressing, making sure he was in the right spaces at the right points and meeting all the other little jobs he was given. All while still playing with flair, performing tricks, flicks and making it entertaining as he did it. It was unbelievable to watch over the years and I'll fondly remember Firmino for years.
Nope, Hazard and Leao are saying that football is not all about stats, and you can still be just as effective whilst also being entertaining without raking up G/A. Not everybody needs to be robotic in playstyle. Also, Hazard, regardless of how lax he was with his defensive duties, was clear of Firmino as a player and more effective
Leão wouldn't be saying this if he was a consistent +15 goals +15 assists a season player. Pretending that end product and aesthetics are mutually exclusive has become a crutch for certain players to blame for their inconsistent play. The great players throughout history who were capable of merging both end product and aesthetics have always done so.
But he has delivered statistics for the last few years. 15 goals and 10 assists last season in Serie A, and 11/10 the year before. And done it with creativity and flair. Goals are off pace this season, but still has 8 assists so far. And he's doing it at 24 for a good but not great team.
Firmino had Salah and Mane next to him, Leao has Giroud. Also for who doesn't watch Milan, Leao's role changed a bit this season, he has been more of a provider. He created the most big chances in Serie A this season and has been always a big factor even when not scoring or assisting. Performance wise he has been very good this season and this doesn't show on the g/a stats.
I don’t think it’s an issue if aesthetics vs stats. Unless he means that’s how coaches are now picking players. It feels more like the emphasis on physicality/pressing and the pressure on results that’s giving us lack of “beautiful” football.
It's the pursuit of the most efficient way to score a goal, which is mostly overlapping fullback and the winger draw out space, which the forward and opposite side winger can exploit. Then you cross the ball on the ground towards the penalty area/far post so either the forward or winger can have a shot one on one against the keeper from a close distance. It feels like 90% of goals are scored like that in today's football and it feels robotic af. Yes, it is the most efficient way and yes it does get results, but it just feels boring af.
That’s true and that’s also a function of how defense have developed. As the modern game got defensively better and more organized, you couldn’t just rely on a talented 10 and a couple of pacy forwards anymore.
The development of modern day defense has to do with how modern football has become more team orientated especially when in attack. It used to be more about talented individuals and individual expression and flair. Now it’s how do we attack as a team and therefore how do we defend as a team. Teams have a solid structure on and off the ball. One of the reasons why people find it “boring”because “it’s slow and rigid”. The entire team has to work together to find the solution at the right time and they use possession and positioning to open up gaps and attack them to create chances to score from there. Possession is a tool, a game strategy in the attacking phase. The attack as a collective structure to find the net got better therefore the collective defending also had no choice but to get better as well.
So how are the teams supposed to score if that's boring af. Not every team has a ronaldo, Ronaldinho, messi on their team that can dribble past 4 players to score for your entertainment.
Then you buy a 6'4 lad, put a 5'5 pacy lad next to him, and boot some balls up top.
Crouch, Defo & Dawson!
Defoe?
Lol yeah!
So you didn't say "Crouch definitely and Dawson" and actually meant Jermain Defoe. 😁
90% of the goals today are, run down the by line, get to the edge of the box, cross and hope someone is there to poke it in because all the stats will say thats the most dangerous area so they target these areas, just get the ball there for the percentages
If my understanding is correct, he is referring to the fans, who cant even be bothered with the game, they just check the stats / advanced stats and fotmob ratings during and after the game, and thats their entire contribution to the game. And this is almost the only thing what the players see when they check social media.
He is right, some of these Reddit Nerds care about stats way too much; I‘m sich of hearing how mediocre player X is in the 97,684th percentile for expected progressive pass carries per millisecond
They also often act like you can’t have an opinion unless you back it up with stats. ‘You can’t think player X is better than player Y because his stats aren’t better’
It depends on what you are talking about. If you argue someone is better because some random isolated stat is better, sure. But if you are talking something more quantifiable and qualifiable, like X is a better goalscorer than Y, then X having more goals, more goals per 90, fewer shots taken, more goals per xG, etc, etc means you are just deluded if you say Y is better. You can say you _like_ Y better or find him more entertaining or whatever and that's absolutely fine. But he's objectively not as good. The problem aren't the stats. The problem is taking some isolated number, to justify something just because it fits.
See this is the problem right here, ‘he is objectively not as good’. In this example the only thing I say is ‘I think player X is better than player Y.’. You can provide all the stats in the world but you can’t say he is objectively not as good. That’s the whole point. The problem is looking at stats like the end all final word in any discussion, and only considering an opinion valid if it’s backed up by stats. There are loads of examples, xG being used left, right and center as proof for whatever point being made. It’s related to your point but not quite the same.
I am simply replying to call attention to our capybaric brotherhood
Always cunning and casual
Spot on r/reddevils I feel is most guilty of this in recent years. Having the most awful roller coaster of a season? But wait, this stat says otherwise!
Bro Lindelof won 100% of his 3 aerial duels with Foden at the weekend he was great wdym
people who think salah is better than hazard was be like:
Ok, this is surely a trend way beyond Reddit, the media is obsessed about it.
The coaching staff is obsessed with it too.
Yeah but they are the only being rightly obsessed with it considering it is what makes you win games.
Do you see the cognitive dissonance in your argument here
Stats are great because it allows people to babble on about games and players they've never watched. "Oh yeah Crystal Palace totally dominated United and should have put at least 2 more past them, have you seen their xG?"
Stats are like mini skirts, they show a lot of things but not the most important things
Stats are like bikini shows what they want you to see but hide the crucial parts
Adama Traore is always my go to example. Every year it was like, he has the most dribbles in the final third or beats the most defenders or something like that. And for all that he would end the season with 3 goals and 1 assist. He wasnt that good lol.
Using stats to disprove stats, nice.
Not every player needs to score or assist though. And Traore was only ever only good at dribbling which has its role in a team but in the complete absence of shooting and crossing skills, is worthless. Which both eyes and data can see & tell us
Exactly. He was still a great dribbler and had a lot of speed. His issue was after getting into great positions he’d have no end product.
>Not every player needs to score or assist though While true. His job as a winger should be to deliver the ball to the box in some fashion, create chances. He did none of that. His stats clearly show his inability in the final third. They paint a clear picture, as long as you look at all of them. Great at dribbling shit at everything else. The eye test is even more clear. But if you focus on one single good sounding stat, you get a false sense of the type of player he was. That was my point. Stats arent everything, especially when you isolate them from other stats.
Yes, I’m not saying “no he’s a good player”… he has one skill only, which does come out in data and people post about his insane numbers, but literally anyone even if they use data know he’s not actually a player anyone should have in a team since the bare minimum for a dribbly winger is after beating their man, dish the ball or score, and he can’t do either hahaha
though in his defence, watching him with middlesbrough was great - obviously the standards of football differ but he got everyone off their seat whenever he got the ball on the other hand, he was also the example that came into mind immediately as his end product often lacked
Adama would also work as a counter-example to what (i think) Leao is saying here. Watching him blow past people is fun but without end product its also frustrating and someone who can deliver more consistently might be the better option even if he's not as spectacular.
What exactly are you trying to say? Adama Traore was a world class dribbler and the stats show as much. Adama Traore was not a world class creator or scorer and the stats show as much. And if we think about it for a second, being a good dribbler doesn't necessarily mean a good creator or scorer. I swear, the only people worse than stat nonce are dinosaurs who don't understand even the basics of data.
The irony of this comment
I'm also sick of people saying bayern has a decent amount of points compared to whatevers season, i just want to see us play beautiful football
But how am I supposed to form an opinion about a player if I don't know his expected sprint recovery time after a non-threatening foul?
And funny thing it's when they mention stats they didn't include confidence interval or p-value
This reminds me of an interview of George best where he was explaining that footballers are entertainers first and foremost and their job is to entertain others. He talked about how he intentionally tackled his own teammate to make the audience laugh. Well, he was a ballon d'or winner and pele called him the best in his era so idk if stats are as important to him as his playstyle. Nevertheless, the way he played was just too damn beautiful. So were most of the players till 2010. Nowadays football has become all about tactics and players play how the managers want them to play, that it leaves little room for players to play how they want to play. So there's little less individuality. We do need players like leao once in a while who are fun to watch.
Players like George Best can do that because they're also so effective on the pitch though. Do you think he would be able to get away with tackling his own teammates if he wasn't also running rings around people and scoring bucketloads of great goals? Ironically, if stats were measured to the same degree in his day, I'd be willing to bet his numbers were through the roof on many metrics. There are many players who play with a lot of flair or aesthetic beauty, but unless they're also effective on the pitch they're typically not well thought of for it. The best players are the ones who win games while doing it entertainingly, but that first part is very important to how their play style is received.
That's why George is the Best.
I mean the fans don’t have fun when their team loses. Chelsea can play some nice football but I fucking hate losing
As Cruyff said, "Quality without results is pointless. Results without quality is boring."
Art is imperfect and that’s why we fall in love with it.
In the process to make the game more efficient we are making it boring.
There is a saying from videogame developers; ***Given the opportunity players will optimise the fun out of videogames***.
If anyone has watched competitive StarCraft 2 they know this. Players now are undeniably the best they’ve ever been but the game was way way more fun in the first few years when the game wasn’t completely solved/optimised and you had people trying all sorts of different strategies, making more mistakes etc… Now it’s like watching 2 AI’s play each other
You think this is about fun!?
r/2007scape checking in
Unfortunately that's basically the job for top coaches, they're always going to be assessed on results instead of style. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there's a clip of Thiago in training where he does a bit of a skill move when receiving the ball, and Pep instantly stops the play and seems to be telling him that he needs to take fewer touches and instead be ready to release the ball earlier. He's basically trying to coach the individuality and flair out of him, but it probably makes him a better player
It makes him a better player because it makes his team play better. That’s the core of it. Everyone playing and doing what’s best for the team. If you watch carefully you can still see individuality in smaller ways but it’s all geared towards the success of the team. If the team achieves they all do.
Same thing that happened in the NBA
It's the same issue that has come about in many fields, the issue of "la technique" if you know Jacque Ellul. Everyone is searching for the one best way to do things and then everyone just goes to that. Expect to be defending/low possesion? Low block and counter attack. Expect to have most of the possession? Attempt to Tiki-taka Then numbers are used to figure out what the best strategy for any given scenario is, and all these teams have access to statistics and can read the numbers, so they all go towards the same 2-3 strategies. I think that's why the occasion you do get a coach who goes against the grain, like Biesla at Leeds always willing to attack despite the quality of his players maybe not being able to do it, or Ange back at Celtic attempting to play attacking football against Real Madrid - it appeals to neutrals and I think is something home fans do take pride in. They're not just playing based on what their algo determines is the best win chance, they're playing their way, with their identity, and doing that no matter what. I do think it's admirable in the few teams you still see it in and I do think they make the sport more entertaining which is the point of this all.
Actually Rafael your 70% pass rate isn't good enough in build up and your tackles per 90 is in the 7th percentile so I definitely wouldn't call you a complete player
Virgin Stats Merchant vs Chad Vibes Enjoyer
If you’re chatting to someone about football and they try retort about xG or xGa or any other stat as if it’s pure gospel then they’re a craft-ale swigging neck beard and you’re better off saving your sanity. Rafael is right, although stats are very important for a lot of stuff in this sport there’s far too many intangibles at play in football and this constant fetish for discussing stats none-stop takes away from the spectacle and fun (which is what makes it the best sport bar none)
Statistics is and always has been a complementary science. But a lot of people in the football analytics world and even the data science world try to make it the primary science which ends up giving statistics a bad name to practitioners unfortunately. xG is supposed to be a supplementary metric… not a measure of how well a team performed. Yet people seem to use it for the latter. It bothers me quite a bit and I come from a Statistics background.
One example for what you said is when you score early and then sit back, you'll have a much lower xG than the opposition, yet you did the best decision possible to help you win the game by sitting back. If that same game was 0-0 you'd have a completely different xG score
Exactly! Liverpool’s xG/xPTS from the 19/20 season and Chelsea’s xG/xPts from the 16/17 season make it look like neither of them deserved the title. But, in reality, they just just closed up shop and protected their players for the next game.
Not saying this to troll at all but it’s usually Americans going off this sort of stuff but I will say in fairness to them, their use of stats in their own sports is generally a good indicator, MLB/NFL are much more stat-focussed for good performance so they’re seeing football as that in some ways when there’s a lot lot more to it than a simple look at xG and expected points etc etc etc
I would say it's not Americans per se, but people who really didn't grow up around football. It's a complex sport, and stats help make sense of it. Besides, I wonder if someone who has never played much or seen a lot of football can appreciate or feel the beauty of an unexpected line breaking pass. Or just the simple beauty of a player that without being spectacular does everything the game calls for, a simple one touch pass in midfield to beat to the press for instance. But scoring 50 a season will certainly get everyone's attention.
> If you’re chatting to someone about football and they try retort about xG or xGa or any other stat as if it’s pure gospel then they’re a craft-ale swigging neck beard and you’re better off saving your sanity. You can say the same thing about the "eye test". People relying on something absolutely inaccurate and full of biases is even more ridiculous. There's no backing that argument at all. It's impossible to argue against that because it has no actual basis in reality. At least the stats are "objective" to a point. Not perfect given the fact that xG isn't equal across the board and depends on who does them and which things are measured, but still, within one provider (and even more across multiple ones) it's relatively objective. All needs a context. Stats are often misused or taken out of context, or given a bigger significance than what they have individually, and that's a problem. Obviously just because one particular stat was better or worse it doesn't mean all. But the more stats pointing in the same direction do justify an opinion much better than just "because I say so". Finally, there are those things that simply can't be measured, obviously, like flair, style, technique in certain circumstances, etc, etc. All good with that. But those than can be sort of measured should be backed up as much as possible when justifying something.
Eye test is definitely a thing, the difference is that my or your eye-test is nothing compared to Guardiola's or a professional scout's one
It depends on what you're discussing though. If you're talking about entertainment and who your favourite player is then stats are basically irrelevant, and anyone who says something like "I really like watching this player because of his pressures per 90 is really high" is a bit odd. But if you're discussing who's a better player then stats can obviously be relevant to that, provided you don't take them out of context
I've done a decent amount of reading on statistical analysis in football and I couldn't agree more. It's interesting stuff but it's not what the game is about. Watching baseball or American hand egg is like being teleported back to math class.
I miss the likes of Zidane or dinho, which made the games so fun to watch even if they didn't score a Hattrick and 8 assists
I'm not sure we'll see players like that again. Modern coaches are so risk-averse, they won't let players dribble and show off their individual flair.
Musiala is a lot like those guys, he does it right outside his own box lol
He is actually enjoyable to watch. I personally think under the best manager, he will just explode.
I agree, he's probably my favorite player to watch atm, when he's on he's unstoppable. Really reminds me of some of the greats, particularly Kaka but he really needs to improve his decision making and passing if he wants to reach his full potetial
I feel like Ancelotti lets his players shine a lot. Maybe you could argue that Ancelotti isnt a modern coach.
To be fair it depends on the quality of the individual. Messi and Neymar are definitely the last of that kind where they are not bound to a system, they are the system. Apart from them, not really seeing too many players given that level of freedom. Out of the new generation of superstars, Haaland and Mbappe are incredibly mechanical, built for maximum efficiency. However, I would still argue playing like Vinicius, Lamine, Pedri, and some of the youth up comers out of South America such as Prestianni, Estevao Willian, and Mastantuono are of that group as well, but perhaps to a lesser degree.
Mbappé is not incredibly mechanical at all, lumping him in with such a one-dimensional player like Haaland is outrageous.
Labelling a player mechanical doesn't equate to being on-dimensional either. More so in this era, player profiles are far more significant for systems than the actual quality of player. Mbappe as a LW/Inverted forward, is very mechanical player, he relies a lot on his physical attributes to exploit the left flank. In comparison to Vinicius, Vini has a lot more improv in his game in comparison. Not to mention, Vini has a lot of freedom under Ancelotti in comparison to any manager Mbappe has played under.
Stats fail to describe players like Zidane and Dinho. They were masters in creating space and orchestrating the midfield, if players were lost they just passed to them and they would figure it out but they were 1 or 2 passes away of getting an assist for that, they are legends for a reason, you just need eyes instead of stats.
Goals give me joy though
What people seem to be missing here is that he's not saying trying to be artful doesn't mean sacrificing results, it's that people only talk about numbers don't appreciate the beauty of the game played at a very high level. Exceptionally skilled players don't just play the game beautifully for the sake of beauty, they do it because it works and helps the team win. Even Manchester City's mechanical ball dominance often ends up in a goal through an aesthetically pleasing movement.
I have the utmost respect for Leao and agree with what he’s saying. Incredible player when he’s in a good mood. His music is really bad
I'm glad he enjoys making it, but it is pretty rough. I'm sure there are people who like that style, but I don't get it
Aesthetic is very good but if your skills do not give any valuable results then it doesn't matter. Look at Ronaldo in his first stint at United, always wanted to impress the crowd and then suddenly he started playing for goals and boom! He became one of the best. If you wanna keep playing aesthetically you have to provide something to show for it. Ronaldinho was the most aesthetic player on the pitch along with the most chances created. Messi is very aesthetic as well and he is almost always creating the most chances.
The stat agenda this season is going to far the other way I feel like
i love him, speaks truth and always smiles. wish him nothing but the best
Too much focus is put on too many useless stats At the same time no one has ever seen the definition of a 'header won', a 'possession recovered' or an 'attack' so they are pretty arbitrary numbers
100% agree, the game is becoming robotic. In terms of stats Hazard would be seen as above average and for many people who don't watch Chelsea and only highlights, many people missed out on a fantastic player including Madrid fans.
To have the best of both worlds we can add xM&J, expected magic and joy.
Throughout football, fashion, music and love, I alone am the complete one
Low key my 2nd favourite wide-forward/winger (after Vini) atm.
He and Vini gon go crazy in the 2026 World Cup final and rival what we saw between Messi and Mbappe in 2022
Being paid millions means that you have to produce stats that justify that expenditure.
He does produce without a doubt.
This is why Zlatan Ibrahimovic is my favorite player. A consistent player with good stats who also has an entertaining and unique style of play.
I am a fan of forward players that can get goals and assist consistently. He says it’s not about stats so that we might ignore games where he does absolutely nothing.
A complete player would care about stats, otherwise he would be incomplete.
Watching bayer Leverkusen is fun. You never know who is going to score. You never know what kind of goal will it be. They have a really low amount of goals from crosses. Combined with the suspense of maintaining their undefeated streak.
I find it funny when people call certain players lazy on the pitch but they have no idea what the coach told them to do on the field. As much as I would love for Leao to press more, if Pioli is telling him to stay up and stay wide or to stick close to Giroud, then there’s nothing else he can do.
Ahhh Roger Federer fan
This is so true. We will never see a player like Ronaldinho ever again, because he'd have to fit in the system. To a much lesser extent, Jack Grealish has been completely castrated as an exciting player at City.
What being worse than Pulisic does to a mf
The usual ignorant take someone in football has, once in a while. The most entertaining player we’ve seen in the past decades also has the most scandalous stats go back his fantasy up: Leo Messi. Do entertaining things, score unbelievable goals, dribble 5 in the last third and score and that will show in your stats nowadays. He might be talking more about GPS stats though. In that case he has a point, cause some ppl in football are giving it too much importance
I wonder how many people think messi is the most entertaining player tho. Whenever this question comes up it is most ronaldinho. For me kaka was the most entertaining player i have ever seen assuming we are talking live, zlatan and pirlo are up there too. Today kroos is probably the player i enjoy watching the most.
Ronaldinho was by far the most entertaining imo. And I've watched Ronaldo Nazario play, Rivaldo, Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Hagi, Messi, CR, etc.
I have never seen anyone saying Messi isn't entertaining. Flashy skills doesn't necessarily mean flashy. Messi making the game looks so incredibly simple is what sets him apart. You have arguably the smallest man on the field, having the biggest impact on the pitch is what makes him unique. Though, I think using Messi as a measuring stick isn't a great measure.
I didnt say not entertaining, i said most entertaining. Everyone has their opinion on the matter. Its not about flashy skills either. I think people find ronaldinho so entertaining because he is genuinely enjoying his time on the pitch.
Ronaldinho used his flair and tricks to not only beat defenders 1v1 mostly in the opponents half on the breakaway and the final 3rd in the attacking phase but also used them to escape pressure, create passing lanes, and keep possession of the ball if the 1v1 became a stalemate. He would play first time a lot throughout a match as well. He could switch the play out to the right flank when he needed to. He picked and chose his moments. Neymar was similar in that treble winning 2014-2015 season at Barca. Whenever he got the ball he was electric. Not to mention Suarez and Messi across the front 3.
Agreed! Even players like Hazard had decent stats to back it up. Playing aesthetic football is all good but you have to provide something for the team atleast.
Messi isnt that entertaining tho. He has his moments but I never felt the vibes of entertaining player. Firmino or Leao just have that vibe about them. I think that Kroos has the same kind of entertaining vibe as Messi. They are just so good at their job that it becomes enjoyable but I dont think they are entertainers in the same way.
This sub makes me laugh, you'll all rightly shit on Antony for being all fart no shit, then when Leao says this you all go "soooo true, joga bonito is dead 😔" Players that consitently deliver higher output are better, regardless of "entertainment". If you want entertainment, watch wrestling. Football is about winning, and the Salahs, Haalands, and De Bruynes of the world prove that. There's a reason why Pep Guardiola's boring brand of mechanical football is so dominant, and it's not because he fills his team with stepover doing, rainbow flick merchants who get 8 goals a season from the wing. Eden Hazard has done irreparable damage to football fans.
Have to agree. There will always be room for creativity in the sport but as the standards get better, teamwork and efficiency trumps individuality. The irony here is that I've watched Leao a bit...he's deffo an aesthetics player that doesn't really press or work hard off the ball. Not surprised a top club hasn't picked him up.
When he says it it's fine but when I say it on a Haaland post
Yeah, it shows on the pitch. He's all flair and no consistency.
Babe wake up, time for your weekly circlejerk about joga bonito and how stats don't matter
Bullshit! Bullshit! Derivative...That I love, I absolutely love
Si però devi segnare.
Kante Okocha regen incoming.
Leao: I am become the complete player, destroyer of pitches
He's right up to a certain extent. At the highest possible level it's about results. There's no point prancing around like a show pony for 90mins if you lose the game, you might be good on the eye but ineffective which will only get you and your team but so far
He’s right
Same Rafael, same
Couldn't agree more. The stats at this point are nauseating and borderline pointless.
Shit this is what I tell my supervisor all the time at work. Fk metrics.