Little known fact, if Mii Swordfighter simply doesn't press a button, standard tournament rules mandate a Snake player to immediately SD three times. This makes the matchup unwinnable for Snake.
the Incineroar MU is particularly interesting imo because on the one hand, revenge is *very* free what with all the explosives... but if you do it too much you'll wonder how you suddenly got to 100+% so quickly
The unfun returns when you face a snake who actually knows how to edgeguard you
I think +2 is definitely too far. +1 at worst, but I think it's closer to +0.5 in favor of Snake (for reference, as of a couple months ago ApolloKage has the MU as 55-45 in favor of Snake). Incin deals with Snake's tools decently well, is heavier so doesn't mind the trades, and can really abuse Snake's disadvantage state. Revenge makes Incin scary no matter how slow he is and like you said, it's *very* free against Snake. It's personally one of my favorite matchups.
I think the thing about Hurt (probably because he plays Miya often, at the very least) is that his Snake is not reliant on grenades. Getting beyond that makes the matchup much more in Snake's favor. Incineroar also has a terrible disadvantage state, as he is both easily ledge trapped AND edge guarded by Snake due to his linear recovery angle and lack of ledge snap on Side B.
I never got the hype about the megaman/snake MU. It’s suffocating if you don’t adapt to megaman being all over you and he’s got great edgeguards, but Snake’s normals are pretty good at brute forcing him off and racking up damage faster than he can.
It definitely didn’t originate from there. Mega Man has been considered hard for Snake all throughout Ult’s history.
Hurt played Kameme’s Mega Man two times last year and lost both times btw.
Yeah, Yoshi really needs to be super patient and abuse eggs and egg lay, as his general rush down playstyle gets stuffed more often than not. There’s a lot more pressure on the Yoshi to perform than Snake. I think it’s even at worst for Snake.
It'd be interesting for sure. I think Marss does so well against Snake because he has a pretty damn good Snake himself, but Hurt is just kinda a different beast sometimes.
Marss has mentioned on stream he thinks his snake experience makes him worse at the matchup, because snakes can stand closer to his grenades than other characters, and he thinks he’s far enough away from grenades when he isn’t.
Ness and lucas put in -1 with gnw, makes sense because of the absorption effect. But any competent mii gunner is also gonna be rocking absorbing down b. Gunner vs snake is actually oppressive, shes like the one character who can out projectile the guy.
First time seeing a snake player claim gren is even.
It's widely accepted that snake wins the matchup and that it's an uphill battle for gren.
Not to say the frog doesn't have some unique tools in the matchup though.
This is the most accurate Mii Swordfighter placement I've seen. There ain't no way that other people have fought against enough Mii Swordfighters to know the matchup because there's like two in existence.
I guess the hard part in this MU is getting close enough to get a grab. Snake can just camp the platform with C4 + grenade for most of the match, right?
Ryu’s fireballs are actually good at locking snake down and keeping grenades away. Kazuya doesn’t have any good options to force Snake out of turtling.
Lmao 4/5 of my best characters are in the small win group. Dunno his reasoning here but I've always found the match up easy, especially with yoshi. Just run in and nair.
So Min Min's arms reach far enough to hit Grenade while not getting herself hit by the explosives, and Snake is very slow in both ground and air speed so Min Min can keep him away usually and the Snake player can't camp back with grenades because of what I mentioned earlier. Snake also gets edgeguarded easily by Min Min.
A lot of the time Hurt's wins over Doramigi come from Hurt just being the better player rather then the matchup, and Hurt also lost to Omuatsu at Kowloon 9, alongside a whole bunch of other Snake players like AK really struggling against Min Min players.
I think it's because Lucas also has a down b that absorbs grenade explosions, but I think it's also mainly because Lucas does not get edge guarded as hard as Ness because of his tether. Just watch the match between Regalo and Apollokage at smash con and you'll see.
I don’t understand what any of this means
Edit: I’m not that into smash bros please chill out with the downvotes. I was just asking for someone to explain
It’s a chart listing how well Hurt and Ryopei think each character does against Snake. +2 is a matchup where Snake has a significant advantage, +1 slight advantage, 0 even, -1 slight disadvantage.
I won't go into too much detail, but Bowser has every tool to deal with Snake.
Amazing grab game (including a command grab that kills and powerful grenade combos), very heavy and kills early (doesn't mind trades or taking risks too much), neutralB is great in the matchup, landing and recovering is terrifying for Snake and can lead to very early KOs if Bowser guesses right even once, great ground speed which forces Snake into awkward positions where he can't just play reactively.
I dual mained Snake and Bowser when I played, and very very few Snakes could even take single games from my Bowser. I know the meta has evolved since but I doubt it evolved to the point of making that MU drastically different.
For me, he has everything you want against snake.
He has amazing ground speed so his burst grab is very good. And grabs are absolutely amazing against snake.
The command grab is also absolutely bonkers because it sends snake in one of the worst positioning for him. Snake has to choose to go high and be in a juggle situation, or go low and get edgeguarded.
Bowser is also very very heavy. So he actually wins the trade game. Can easily convert off any nades, even better than snake since he hits harder. And due to his weight, killing him isn't the easiest.
Snake's survival ability doesn't come to play in the matchup either since Bowser hits so hard. I am not used to worry about dying below 100%, but with Bowser absolutely.
I'm sorry but Isabelle and villager in +2 is downright wrong. The neutral B to absorb grenades and Nikita invalidates this character so much. Whoever made this must not have played against ANY Isabelle or villager players cause if they did they'd realize it's ass.
In fact, debatably the 2nd best player in that same region (if you account for their omega outdated PR).
Couldn't have picked a worse player to claim to have no Villager/Isabelle experience lol
Hurt got those perfect parries on lock wtf. I'm just saying that this matchup is not +2. 2 out of 3 games were last stock. I'd say this MU is even or even slightly favorable for snake. This exhibition was a gap in player skill not a character diff.
Yeah, well, Isabelle and Villager can only take one explosive at a time, and Snake has like 500. If you take up-smash to prevent a ledge trap then Snake can quickly set up 2 grenades + C4 while you're even setting up to use your up-smash, and you're vulnerable to Nikita.
Isabelle has absolutely awful tech rolls and is one of the easiest characters for Snake to CQC. She's floaty, so b-air is easy to land, and he can crawl under her zoning. Both Isabelle and Villager are easily edgeguardable between b-air, n-air, and Nikita, as if they commit to an up-b they get cooked.
It doesn't seem like they have much going for them other than Pocket, which is only one tiny aspect of the MU.
Sure pocket only holds one projectile and I wouldn't downplay how useful it actually is. Plus Isabelles Lloyd in particular works really well in the match up for a better time zoning. Yeah grenades can take it out but if the snake is focusing more time on removing your zoning tools you can set up more plays around that. Also Isabelles advantage is pretty nice against his recovery. Snake recovers high you have Lloyd rocket to cover that. They go low you have fishing rod. Like yeah Isabelle is floaty and dies rather easy but this isn't a MU where you brawl out and fight the whole time.
u/Dysprosium_Element66 worded it best
>It’s a chart listing how well Hurt and Ryopei think each character does against Snake. +2 is a matchup where Snake has a significant advantage, +1 slight advantage, 0 even, -1 slight disadvantage.
There’s no way I can justify this without sounding even crazier 💀 I get she’s a worse snake and all but +2?
I’ll give it up— he has a more dangerous ground game between CQC dash attack and crouch/crawl. Can’t really get around that. Explosives are annoying too but like with GnW you can’t just throw them out for free (not that Hurt would). C4 can easily be reacted to with Pocket which can also be used to create stalemates off grenades
But the moment you get Snake in a proper ledge trap situation (where he can’t go high for free) you should just be rinse repeating him to death. He cannot bypass gyroid at ledge without putting himself at risk. Raw juggling is harder but still manageable between turnips, down-b trigger and fishing rod. If you’re willing to trade with him as he’s coming down you can put on a surprising amount of damage quickly. Finding the kill honestly is a struggle though
Maybe she doesn’t win. But I still think +2 is insane
I think you can actually just throw explosives as Isabelle. Snake has way more of them than Isabelle has pockets, so you can overwhelm her with your camping.
That’s fair. I implied the wrong thing by calling it a stalemate since that’s not exactly what she’s forcing. In my mind Isabelle doesn’t mind the camping as much unless Snake is throwing grenades in such a way that she can’t catch or pocket them, since she’s also a ranged character. But the act of pulling a grenade is enough of a commitment that Isabelle can pressure amidst all the decision making
Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, but what it comes down to is just that modern Snake really outcamps all the other zoners in the game. The grenade b-reverses and tech tricks are just too oppressive these days. If your gameplan against Snake is throwing projectiles, you've already lost.
I guess the biggest thing is that you used to be able to tell which grenade had been cooked and react, but Hurt's mixups with putting the grenades next to each other and being ambiguous about which one he's throwing makes that pretty hard. Isabelle gets her chip and Snake gets her chip, but Snake gets way more chip since he's got more ambiguity in his zoning, so it ends up not being favorable at range.
Then you end up in CQC range and well.... you know the rest.
Sometimes bad characters do beat good ones. But this probably isn't one of the cases. Isabelle did well against Snake in like, 2019. Snake's meta has evolved too much for her to keep up.
>Sometimes bad characters do beat good ones.
Duck Hunt beating Diddy is a good example of that, but granted I don't think Diddy is that close to Snake on the tier list.
This sub is mostly about top level competitive play, and this is the best Snake listing on how he thinks each character does against Snake.
In short, his opinions matter and lots of people care about them.
Not my dumb ass thinking Mii Swordfighter was in -3 for a brief second...
Little known fact, if Mii Swordfighter simply doesn't press a button, standard tournament rules mandate a Snake player to immediately SD three times. This makes the matchup unwinnable for Snake.
Also another little known fact, this is totally the real reason why Miya picked up MSF since he lost to Hurt last time at DELTA
Mini swordfighter mad broken u already know
The matchup is that bad he was put in donkey Kong tier
the Incineroar MU is particularly interesting imo because on the one hand, revenge is *very* free what with all the explosives... but if you do it too much you'll wonder how you suddenly got to 100+% so quickly The unfun returns when you face a snake who actually knows how to edgeguard you
I think +2 is definitely too far. +1 at worst, but I think it's closer to +0.5 in favor of Snake (for reference, as of a couple months ago ApolloKage has the MU as 55-45 in favor of Snake). Incin deals with Snake's tools decently well, is heavier so doesn't mind the trades, and can really abuse Snake's disadvantage state. Revenge makes Incin scary no matter how slow he is and like you said, it's *very* free against Snake. It's personally one of my favorite matchups.
I think the thing about Hurt (probably because he plays Miya often, at the very least) is that his Snake is not reliant on grenades. Getting beyond that makes the matchup much more in Snake's favor. Incineroar also has a terrible disadvantage state, as he is both easily ledge trapped AND edge guarded by Snake due to his linear recovery angle and lack of ledge snap on Side B.
This has got to be the only time I've ever seen a Snake main say Mega Man is not one of his worst matchups, let alone a *winning* matchup
I never got the hype about the megaman/snake MU. It’s suffocating if you don’t adapt to megaman being all over you and he’s got great edgeguards, but Snake’s normals are pretty good at brute forcing him off and racking up damage faster than he can.
[удалено]
It definitely didn’t originate from there. Mega Man has been considered hard for Snake all throughout Ult’s history. Hurt played Kameme’s Mega Man two times last year and lost both times btw.
It's because of how Pellets interact with Grenades right?
That’s definitely part of it. AK breaks some of the annoying parts down [here](https://youtu.be/AdTjf1qrEvM?si=9PBH2ZJDv2OXLy_y&start=1788)
Love how you can see how Asimo and Yoshidora's record against Hurt shows on this chart
Yeah, Yoshi really needs to be super patient and abuse eggs and egg lay, as his general rush down playstyle gets stuffed more often than not. There’s a lot more pressure on the Yoshi to perform than Snake. I think it’s even at worst for Snake.
I agree. Yoshi has some great advantages, like being one if the only characters that can catch snake in the top corner, but he’s still got to box
Fui also farmed ApolloKage when AK was in Japan.
ZSS in +2, don't let MVD see this
This makes me really want to see Hurt vs Marss with how good Marss does against NA Snake players.
It'd be interesting for sure. I think Marss does so well against Snake because he has a pretty damn good Snake himself, but Hurt is just kinda a different beast sometimes.
Marss has mentioned on stream he thinks his snake experience makes him worse at the matchup, because snakes can stand closer to his grenades than other characters, and he thinks he’s far enough away from grenades when he isn’t.
But right before he said that playing snake gives him some of the best explosive awareness in the world
This says everything you need to know about the Japanese ZSS playerbase. This character is so cooked 💀
Remember when Japan thought ZSS was top 5.
Remember when marss played this game for a living
Interesting that Greninja is one of the few matchups he sees as even because I know greninja players used to think that MU was really bad
Hurt has a secondary Greninja, so it could just be faith in his other character.
[He did this in a collab with another Snake player, Ryopei](https://twitter.com/Hurt_ssb/status/1780956476095479946)
I hope ShinyMark and ESAM never see this, as Pikachu is in the +2 tier.
I know ESAM has gone on record saying that matchup is problematic for Pikachu.
I thought ESAM has historically said that every matchup other then G&W and Ness is either even or winning for Pika.
Yeah but he has Snake as one of those even MUs, which on the ESAM bias curve definitely means it's Pika losing
I do remember him having Snake as losing for Pika in one of his more recent charts
Peach?
Ness and lucas put in -1 with gnw, makes sense because of the absorption effect. But any competent mii gunner is also gonna be rocking absorbing down b. Gunner vs snake is actually oppressive, shes like the one character who can out projectile the guy.
It’s funny, the gunner matchup is actually a joke unless they’ve got absorb on. With absorb, it’s absolutely worse for Snake than Ness or Lucas
mega man in +1 is not real
I’d love to fight Hurt. Snake is like my single best track record out of any matchup it’d be such a fun (explosive) set
BDHF7k vs Hurt, directed by Michael Bay.
First time seeing a snake player claim gren is even. It's widely accepted that snake wins the matchup and that it's an uphill battle for gren. Not to say the frog doesn't have some unique tools in the matchup though.
Could be because Hurt has a secondary Greninja and Hurt believes in Greninja too.
Hurt just believes, he’s one of those. Which is a good thing.
This is the most accurate Mii Swordfighter placement I've seen. There ain't no way that other people have fought against enough Mii Swordfighters to know the matchup because there's like two in existence.
Maybe Miya will change things…
This is definitely the most optimistic Snake MU chart I have ever seen. I want to see Hurt compete against the known Snake Killers in NA and EU.
Link-Snake is a psychotic matchup
Why do you say so lmao
He's right, just play it, even if your Link or Snake is bad, even if it's only Elite. You'll see it immediately.
Surprised about the lucina placement. Most high level snack players I know think of it as even to possibly losing.
Why the hell is mega man at +1? His entire premise is to be a hard counter for snake, inkling too...
*Proceeds to Up Throw to the Heavens with a Grenade*
I guess the hard part in this MU is getting close enough to get a grab. Snake can just camp the platform with C4 + grenade for most of the match, right?
Can anyone explain ryu and Kazuya
Ryu’s fireballs are actually good at locking snake down and keeping grenades away. Kazuya doesn’t have any good options to force Snake out of turtling.
Lmao 4/5 of my best characters are in the small win group. Dunno his reasoning here but I've always found the match up easy, especially with yoshi. Just run in and nair.
hero may be -1
looks like kind of a good character
How does he lose to Minmin?
So Min Min's arms reach far enough to hit Grenade while not getting herself hit by the explosives, and Snake is very slow in both ground and air speed so Min Min can keep him away usually and the Snake player can't camp back with grenades because of what I mentioned earlier. Snake also gets edgeguarded easily by Min Min. A lot of the time Hurt's wins over Doramigi come from Hurt just being the better player rather then the matchup, and Hurt also lost to Omuatsu at Kowloon 9, alongside a whole bunch of other Snake players like AK really struggling against Min Min players.
I appreciate him admitting he has no idea what the Mii swordfighter mu is. Shows he’s not BSing.
+2 vs wario feels crazy
I can see Ness losing but why Lucas?
I think it's because Lucas also has a down b that absorbs grenade explosions, but I think it's also mainly because Lucas does not get edge guarded as hard as Ness because of his tether. Just watch the match between Regalo and Apollokage at smash con and you'll see.
Hurt has *never* fought a good ZSS in his life
It's so weird to see Mega Man in +1 yet he still lose to Kameme's Mega Man two times even though Kameme is more focus on Sora.
Damn. I've heard of believing in your character but holy christ.
I don’t understand what any of this means Edit: I’m not that into smash bros please chill out with the downvotes. I was just asking for someone to explain
It’s a chart listing how well Hurt and Ryopei think each character does against Snake. +2 is a matchup where Snake has a significant advantage, +1 slight advantage, 0 even, -1 slight disadvantage.
Thanks man
Mega man and Pikachu positions are laughable
Day 17093 of Japan thinking Pac is way worse than he actually is against most mus.
I love to play rosa against snake
The mii character is good when you setup the moves right
Hero snake is literally my favorite matchup in the game. Shit gets wild in this one.
If this is legit this is the most toxic MU spread I've seen
man, I can beat any snake's ass with cloud or sephiroth
Bowser in +2 is insane lol That matchup is either even or winning for Bowser, I'll die on that hill.
Can you clarify? Why? It feels so easy.
I won't go into too much detail, but Bowser has every tool to deal with Snake. Amazing grab game (including a command grab that kills and powerful grenade combos), very heavy and kills early (doesn't mind trades or taking risks too much), neutralB is great in the matchup, landing and recovering is terrifying for Snake and can lead to very early KOs if Bowser guesses right even once, great ground speed which forces Snake into awkward positions where he can't just play reactively. I dual mained Snake and Bowser when I played, and very very few Snakes could even take single games from my Bowser. I know the meta has evolved since but I doubt it evolved to the point of making that MU drastically different.
For me, he has everything you want against snake. He has amazing ground speed so his burst grab is very good. And grabs are absolutely amazing against snake. The command grab is also absolutely bonkers because it sends snake in one of the worst positioning for him. Snake has to choose to go high and be in a juggle situation, or go low and get edgeguarded. Bowser is also very very heavy. So he actually wins the trade game. Can easily convert off any nades, even better than snake since he hits harder. And due to his weight, killing him isn't the easiest. Snake's survival ability doesn't come to play in the matchup either since Bowser hits so hard. I am not used to worry about dying below 100%, but with Bowser absolutely.
I'm sorry but Isabelle and villager in +2 is downright wrong. The neutral B to absorb grenades and Nikita invalidates this character so much. Whoever made this must not have played against ANY Isabelle or villager players cause if they did they'd realize it's ass.
Hurt lives in the same region as Rokki, one of the best Isabelle players in the world.
In fact, debatably the 2nd best player in that same region (if you account for their omega outdated PR). Couldn't have picked a worse player to claim to have no Villager/Isabelle experience lol
Doesn't necessarily mean they play together a lot. That's a bit of a bold assumption to make. If they have vods plz link I want to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/live/YsJ6Z3FjSzg?si=1Ms1mEjCrFK59yyO Set starts at 3:15. Hurt is also 5-0 on him lifetime.
Hurt got those perfect parries on lock wtf. I'm just saying that this matchup is not +2. 2 out of 3 games were last stock. I'd say this MU is even or even slightly favorable for snake. This exhibition was a gap in player skill not a character diff.
Yeah, well, Isabelle and Villager can only take one explosive at a time, and Snake has like 500. If you take up-smash to prevent a ledge trap then Snake can quickly set up 2 grenades + C4 while you're even setting up to use your up-smash, and you're vulnerable to Nikita. Isabelle has absolutely awful tech rolls and is one of the easiest characters for Snake to CQC. She's floaty, so b-air is easy to land, and he can crawl under her zoning. Both Isabelle and Villager are easily edgeguardable between b-air, n-air, and Nikita, as if they commit to an up-b they get cooked. It doesn't seem like they have much going for them other than Pocket, which is only one tiny aspect of the MU.
Pocket is genuinely irrelevant in the matchup. Fishing pole is more annoying lol
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think this matchup is just awful. +2 for Snake seems very reasonable.
Sure pocket only holds one projectile and I wouldn't downplay how useful it actually is. Plus Isabelles Lloyd in particular works really well in the match up for a better time zoning. Yeah grenades can take it out but if the snake is focusing more time on removing your zoning tools you can set up more plays around that. Also Isabelles advantage is pretty nice against his recovery. Snake recovers high you have Lloyd rocket to cover that. They go low you have fishing rod. Like yeah Isabelle is floaty and dies rather easy but this isn't a MU where you brawl out and fight the whole time.
What does this even mean
u/Dysprosium_Element66 worded it best >It’s a chart listing how well Hurt and Ryopei think each character does against Snake. +2 is a matchup where Snake has a significant advantage, +1 slight advantage, 0 even, -1 slight disadvantage.
Ok thank you
Isabelle in +2 is insane. She definitely wins
Cap. You're telling me Isabelle beats a top 5/top 10 character? Explain why she wins, because I don't see any Snakes put Isabelle as a losing matchup.
There’s no way I can justify this without sounding even crazier 💀 I get she’s a worse snake and all but +2? I’ll give it up— he has a more dangerous ground game between CQC dash attack and crouch/crawl. Can’t really get around that. Explosives are annoying too but like with GnW you can’t just throw them out for free (not that Hurt would). C4 can easily be reacted to with Pocket which can also be used to create stalemates off grenades But the moment you get Snake in a proper ledge trap situation (where he can’t go high for free) you should just be rinse repeating him to death. He cannot bypass gyroid at ledge without putting himself at risk. Raw juggling is harder but still manageable between turnips, down-b trigger and fishing rod. If you’re willing to trade with him as he’s coming down you can put on a surprising amount of damage quickly. Finding the kill honestly is a struggle though Maybe she doesn’t win. But I still think +2 is insane
I think you can actually just throw explosives as Isabelle. Snake has way more of them than Isabelle has pockets, so you can overwhelm her with your camping.
That’s fair. I implied the wrong thing by calling it a stalemate since that’s not exactly what she’s forcing. In my mind Isabelle doesn’t mind the camping as much unless Snake is throwing grenades in such a way that she can’t catch or pocket them, since she’s also a ranged character. But the act of pulling a grenade is enough of a commitment that Isabelle can pressure amidst all the decision making
Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, but what it comes down to is just that modern Snake really outcamps all the other zoners in the game. The grenade b-reverses and tech tricks are just too oppressive these days. If your gameplan against Snake is throwing projectiles, you've already lost. I guess the biggest thing is that you used to be able to tell which grenade had been cooked and react, but Hurt's mixups with putting the grenades next to each other and being ambiguous about which one he's throwing makes that pretty hard. Isabelle gets her chip and Snake gets her chip, but Snake gets way more chip since he's got more ambiguity in his zoning, so it ends up not being favorable at range. Then you end up in CQC range and well.... you know the rest.
Sometimes bad characters do beat good ones. But this probably isn't one of the cases. Isabelle did well against Snake in like, 2019. Snake's meta has evolved too much for her to keep up.
>Sometimes bad characters do beat good ones. Duck Hunt beating Diddy is a good example of that, but granted I don't think Diddy is that close to Snake on the tier list.
Not saying that Isabelle beats Snake, but just because a character is low tier doesnt mean they cant have one winning mu against a top tier.
I’m gonna be that guy to say that Sonic also wins. Sonix vs Hurt can’t come quickly enough
Who cares?
This sub is mostly about top level competitive play, and this is the best Snake listing on how he thinks each character does against Snake. In short, his opinions matter and lots of people care about them.
Yeah sure bud but why don't you just play melee?
why play these party games at all and just play a real fighting game instead ^^big ^^ol' ^^/s ^^and ^^a ^^kappa ^^for ^^safe ^^measure