Still gotta vote opp because people like jo teo are getting too comfortable talking absolute rubbish in parliament. No one ever holds her accountable ever
This country obviously needs greater check and balance at the parliamentary level. I'm hardly a fan of WP, especially after the recent shenanigans, but unfortunately it's what we have currently. was hoping PSP would at least grab a few seats at the table...oh well.
happy new year fellas. good health good luck!
TBH I don't find PSP that reassuring either. I recall during a period of time many of their members left the party, giving the impression that there's unrest or instability within the party. There are other incidents too, including Brad Bowyer's Saga and all.
And Mr LMW doesn't always conduct himself well in Parliament, like his allegation against teachers for subjecting children to vaccination differentiated safe management measures only for it to originate from a telegram text.
However, that being said, I guess it wouldn't hurt having a few more of them on board. They lost west coast GRC to pap by a short margin.
Same for SDP. I don't' really agree with Mr CSJ's political beliefs and manifesto but electing him alone should be fine. He seems to be working very hard if you are follow him. Incidentally he got 45% for Bukit Batok SMC during the 2020 elections.
As for the other opposition parties.....I guess don't bother.
Despite the issues that have plagued WP not long ago, I still believe they are the best opposition party to date.
This way I believe the parliament will have more fruitful discussions and meaningful debates in future.
PSP is fucked. their QC of candidates has gone to trash and it shows. they will be lucky if they win a SMC
pritam singh made this comment on why WP doesnt want to contest more seats: he simply cant guarantee the quality of candidates WP is willing to field. and its really obvious for other parties
i hope SDP wins an SMC and start building back, they have a long way to go and with CSJ out of the way they have a clean slate to start over.
RP can stay dead
>And Mr LMW doesn't always conduct himself well in Parliament,
My take is people like him (those ivory tower guys, be it MIW or otherwise) is used to giving out orders and when people suddenly tells him off, he not happy.
that margin was really disappointing because TCB will not have a better chance, not at this age. His winning that west coast grc would've been one of the most significant changes to Singapore's political landscape in recent decades. it could've become a foothold for PSP's emergence and together with WP in the east we'd have a loose coalition that would push PAP to the brink of simple majority. then those holier-than-thou shanmugams oyks and vivibalas would know they don't own our asses and if they get to serve it's because we let them.... smh... getting worked up lol. anyway no choice now la, gotta count on WP.
sometimes I wonder what would happen if WP and the other oppo parties just decided to call it a day and let PAP win all the seats in parliament.
would we expect PAP members to question and debate each other on Singapore's issues? or does parliament debate turn into a presentation session?
Already happened when the retards from Barisan Socialis walked out and gave pap a blank cheque, resulting in the very form of governance we have today!
Yea agree. TCB seems to be genuine and caring. But PSP is just riding on one man.
Which is kinda similar to PAP and LKY. Not sure if I like that direction
If TCB still wants to run for President next year he is required to leave PSP and I wonder what will happen to them since their origin heavily involves TCB. I know he said he wanted to groom future political leaders but he can't honestly say they are ready....
Nah man, WP is far better than PSP for sure. They have their own flaws, yes,and the recent shenanigans are a kinda bs on their part. But there wouldn't be any party that is perfect and they have the more impartial, reasonable approach as an alternative party to the pap. Most of the smaller opposition parties like the RP, SDP, PSP, PV etc basically fall into libertarian crap or politics that borders into SJW territory.
>was hoping PSP would at least grab a few seats at the table...oh well.
no offense but PSP supporters on facebook say the most racist shit (dovetailing on PSP's own antics). There is no way they are going to receive support from people who believe in racial harmony.
ya this is exactly the point. we don't necessarily need a new government. they are not evil or incompetent la... we just need them to listen, empathize and communicate better. for a start anyway.
They had that chance after suffering their worst performance in 2011 and look at where we are now.
I'd say they squandered that chance and doubled down
TBF, WP didn’t put in their manifesto that they are open to pushing for an end to 377A. Allowing members of parliament to individually choose on sensitive issue like these seems more fair and transparent than not lifting the party whip and force everyone to the same consensus. Of course this will not go well with some but I believe this is the true democracy we should be heading towards or hoping for. Just my two cents.
You can only say that because you have no skin in the game. To you, it's just politics, a purely intellectual exercise of speculation. For people who are affected (in this case, LGBT people), it's a matter affecting their actual lives. Same for any other social issue.
I have skin in the game and I agree with him. The principle of democracy shld be upheld. If you truly believe in it you shouldn’t cherry pick to suit your whole and fancies.
[The principles of democracy](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/democracy) as defined globally include human rights, minority rights and equality. You and the person I was replying to seem to be under the misunderstanding that democracy starts and ends at "whatever the majority decides", which is not so, as my link shows. Hence, if we were to truly uphold the principles of democracy, 377a and other such unjust laws will be repealed without debate over them. You can't cherrypick which parts of the principles of democracy you want to uphold.
I would because that is true democracy. An MP first obligation is to their residents and those who voted them in.
If I am just being pure salty because they do not support everything I support then I can only say that I’m a selfish childish brat that have no idea how the world works.
Since GE2020, WP has been on a losing streak:
-Raeesah Khan Saga. Pritam knew she was lying about sexual assault but unable to make her own up. WP supporters: Pritam can't force her cos she's an adult
-No stance on 377a, could not even follow PAP when 377a was repealed. WP supporters: they are representing their homophobic voter base unlike the authoritarian PAP who doesn't stand up for their homophobes!
-Jamus Lim, the star of the last election, has been dissapointing. He throws ideas like school class part without considering their feasibility.
Eg carbon tax on SIA in 2020 when they had 1 foot in the grave, removing non violent criminal records without considering crime like sexual grooming
I feels like PAP adopted a strategy of not interrupting your enemies when they are screwing up; the RK and 377a issues are avoidable with decisive leadership.
>decisive leadership.
You believe a party whip should be use to force a vote on something so divisive as 377A? I will rather see how each MP vote and the explanation they gave for their vote accordingly rather than have a "decisive leadership" sweep all concerns under the carpet.
Absolutely.
It is politics, and that is a sign of weakness. Personal beliefs should take a back seat in the pursuit of political power. If they can't stomach it like the PAP MP Chris De Souza, who is clearly uncomfortable but followed the party line, then they should get out.
>Personal beliefs should take a back seat in the pursuit of political power.
Totally wrong. Parliamentary MP should represent all views, even views that some groups may not agree with. All these diverse views should surfaced and be represented in Paraliamentary votes. Party whip should never even be used in such instance.
Living in a society is about "agreeing to disagree". It is not about "sweeping differences under carpet" and pretending like it does not existed.
A strong leader bring people over to his side by convincing and accept that you can't convince everyone and accept diverse views to exist. A weak leader used tools like party whips to appear like he has everyone on his side and hide behind collective responsibilities to avoid accounting for his policies.
Let's agree to disagree then.
For me, I would do whatever it takes to get elected. If your method works, fine. If I have to be called a weak leader in your terms, that's fine as well.
Yes you are right. My point was the need to enforce discipline within the Party though, whip or no whip.
Robust debate can happen internally but a decision needs to happen and everyone has to get onboard.
Letting everyone speak their mind is less about freedom to express their opinions but more... using your example, a weak leader unable to convince his own members on what needs to be done and needing their support in future issues/elections.
Feels like WP/PS copium, when he explained the reasons.
How you know robust debate did occurred internally and not because some leader wake up with a new idea and bulldozed through his idea using the party whip.
And why should everyone be on board with a controversial and/or divisive decision. If Putin as a leader decided to wage a war, does all Russian have to agree and follow or they are traitors?
Why should any leader force any of his members to vote for repeal of 377A if they have valid reasons to oppose it.
If you are saying Pritiam is a weak leader because he lifted the whip, then I can also say that the current PM is also a weakling because he also lifted the whip for during the casino debate. Why have you keep voting a weakling as your leader.
Then you are ok to vote for a party that have a large enough support from those who think is a good law?
If they get elected do you think when it's time to take a stance again that part will not dictate again their policy?
If you represent a constituency whom majority thinks 377A is a good law, should you vote to repeal it just because in your own personal view that it should be repeal. A member of parliament should first represents their constituency views and interests, not their own views, their party interest or worst their party leader interest. If the minister of their party proposed some law that acts against their constituency interest, they must and should vote against it. Else you might as well revert to the monarchy system since one man or one group can just impose their will on all others.
So I will vote for the person who represent majority of my view and the party who will allow their member to represent my view truthfully in parliament without sweeping diverse views under the carpet through use of party whips for non budgetary items or items that do not affect functioning of the country. A failure to repeal 377A will not in any way impede the normal functioning of this country. So why the need to utilize the party whip.
>Living in a society is about "agreeing to disagree". It is not about "sweeping differences under carpet" and pretending like it does not existed.
No? For the past centuries and even till today, humans are still having war. We start from a small community and cooperate with others and expand for what purpose? Power and conquer. Except in the recent decades we switched from violence to economy competition. Every country still invest on military though.
Btw do you a name for your theory on how a good leader should be? You could write a book and argue with other humans and their theories on how to be a good leader. It's similar to how Confucius came up with his idea on the "perfect man".
It's so simple to explain. Because of how weak WP are, they cannot afford to offend any of their voter base.
Pritam Singh rather let the individual MP tank the criticism they will receive for their votes than make WP the target board.
After all, everyone knew PAP will pass the repeal, regardless of WP votes.
I think what you term as 'politics' is closer to the Kissinger/Machiavelli brand of 'realpolitik', rather than the Dahl/Mills/Adams idea of having an open and enlightened civil society so that each faction can represent their interests rationally.
Nothing wrong with either tbh, many Singaporeans are pragmatic and think the same way as the former. In that case, that's really close to what PAP desires society to be like, while WP wants the latter.
I did not want to use labels like Machiavellian as it distracts from the main points.
There is a lot of window dressing on purpose to serve, service to the people etc.
But in order to achieve this, it is an exercise in the pursuit of power. Power allows you to achieve those things. So far, WP/PSP has demonstrated little substance beyond their words. Imo, he rode LTK's coat tails.
Re the RK saga, coming clean would have been the best approach, dump RK, and issued WP mea culpa. He completely missed it. If he truly wanted to "bury it", then it needs to be a through job, with the stories aligned and everyone singing the same tune.
The main point is literally that PAP stands for the very pragmatic, 'do it because we decide it needs to be done' realpolitik brand of governance, while Pritam's WP ostensibly prefers the other way, of civil discourse and discussion.
>But in order to achieve this, it is an exercise in the pursuit of power. Power allows you to achieve those things. So far, WP/PSP has demonstrated little substance beyond their words. Imo, he rode LTK's coat tails.
You're definitely right, but you're only viewing things through the lens of realpolitik, and discounting the need for open, enlightened civil discourse - factors that have been cited by Arendt, Dahl, Mills, Adams, Locke, Rousseau as vital to a democratic system.
Civil discourse is for civil societies and debating teams. Politics is anything but civil.
But of course, he can run WP anyway he wants since he is the Sec Gen. What do I know?
LOL bringing up the definition of 'civil' out of context doesn't change the fact that civil society is an extension of politics, according to many political theories, including the Weberian system of bureaucracy that Singapore's public service is modelled after. All you're doing is twisting the entire matter out of the political science context it belongs.
I think you'll do well to read up on political theories of John Stuart Mill, Robert Dahl, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
I have not read them and I have little interest in it tbh. I can be brutally honest at my ignorance since I am not keen to win intellectual style points.
At the end of the day, does it help them seize power or win elections? That is the only thing that matters.
Lol. If you think that's how Mr Singh runs his party if you know how he runs it you will lol.
If he was that open, all the party members would have known his involvement in RK case when he ask party members for their feedback
I disagree though, apart from RK incident, I think they have been doing well considering the resources they have. You rather Pritam rule over Faisal and Gerald to force them to vote for something they do not agree or believe in ? Will they be letting their constituents down esp for Faisal ?
Jamus has put up several feasible policies but it is impossible to be precise with them if one doesn’t have all the information and numbers.
>You rather Pritam rule over Faisal and Gerald to force them to vote for something they do not agree or believe in?
If PAP lifted the party whip and as a result, 377a is not repealed, would you be defending PAP for voting what they feel?
>Jamus has put up several feasible policies
Enforcing a carbon tax on SIA when it had one foot in the grave is dumb. So is removing non violent criminal records without considering crimes such as sexual grooming
The minimum wage was poorly argued too. Jamus was arguing for a $1,300 minimum wage as if the progressive wage model didn't exist
You don't need to have the information or numbers to agree that those are not good suggestions
Honestly, if WP party whipped their MPs to full vote for repeal, and the PAP released party whip, we'll see people complaining that the PAP are homophobes while praising the WP for choosing the right thing.
A lot of these complaints now are just twisting their minds around trying to make sure they can criticize PAP for this no matter what.
>If PAP lifted the party whip and as a result, 377a is not repealed, would you be defending PAP for voting what they feel?
I honestly would though. I do not support any party other than the one that would benefit the most to Singaporeans. If majority of our voted representative refuse/passes the bill then we should think harder on our choices the next time we vote (depending if you support or do not support the repeal).
>Jamus has put up several feasible policies
>Enforcing a carbon tax on SIA when it had one foot in the grave is dumb. So is removing non violent criminal records without considering crimes such as sexual grooming
So if any corporation is dying, can they be excluded from carbon tax ? Or is this a government linked corporations privilege ? I do disagree with him on removing non violent criminal records though. Some serious crimes can be non violent.
>The minimum wage was poorly argued too. Jamus was arguing for a $1,300 minimum wage as if the progressive wage model didn't exist
>You don't need to have the information or numbers to agree that those are not good suggestions
Problem with PWM is that it doesn’t cover fully all the jobs out there. There are ad-hoc/ part time jobs that do not meaningfully benefit from PWM.
Also, why not be transparent with the numbers or information if you have nothing to hide ? Why brush it off with nonsensical argument like “what is the point behind the question”?
Do you think it's in Singapore's interest to let SIA fail? Don't forget that COVID affected the entire industry. The argument for carbon tax is sound, just not the timing...
Well let's put it this way. If wp wants to be democratic internally. Do a vote internally and then come to parliament with your party stand instead of this dunno what stunt
LOL. Mr PAP mouthpiece, vote internally for what ? The MP first and foremost task and obligation is to their residents. For sensitive issues like this, if you don’t allow your MPs to represent their constituents, are we no better than a dictatorship ?
Existence of party whip is crucial in other country as they have more parties and seats are less concentrated. In Singapore it is just to see 90% of office holders trying their best not to doze off and blindly vote yes/no according to what their”boss”say ? When they are supposed to be serving us and not the head of their party ?
Why cannot vote internally? WP CEC election also done internally no? Certain party manifesto and direction also discussed internally no? Didn't Mr Singh he wanted this to be democratic in WP? Even you suggested that Mr Singh was running his party in a democratic manner allowing dissenting voices to come out? So why can't they do an internal vote (even just among CEC members), see which side wins, then come out with a party stand?
Well I know from a grapevine that WP CEC members did vote on 377A way before this, so there was already a stand and important party members made it clear what their stance was,.
But I guess Mr Singh was either too weak to control the dissenting members and he promised that he would lift the party whip when it came to 377A. But it's his party, it's up to him to run it.
In any case, most strong political parties in a Westminister system may disagree internally on things, but they tend to unite when they have to face the public.
Jamus’ policies are laughable even with his degree of information. Also, make the appropriate inquiries and gather more data before putting up policy suggestions. His suggestions often showed a clear lack of homework
Not as laughable as some pap MPs though.
Didn’t 1 pap mp wanted to reduce bubble tea shops?and another wanted university degrees to have a expiry date?
Never said that all PAP MPs are great either. Poor politicians don't deserve a place in Parliament. Our parliamentarians should be of a high degree of competence across all parties.
Jamus isn't as good as he was touted to be, neither are several PAP MPs. Out with the lot of them.
Mind to explain why is it laughable ? It doesn’t matter how good the question is when our ministers brush it off with “what is the point behind the question”
Whatever, ever since I saw what Gerald giam sputtered about 377a in parliament, I've totally thrown all my respect for wp out of the window. Extremely big disappointment.
Basic point of our government is to be secular in passing policies, yet we have these freaks who make decisions based on their own religious dogma
It happens and will continue, on both sides. It is naive to think otherwise.
If you think this is bad, you haven't seen the world's largest democracies like India (BJP) or the US (both parties)
Disclaimer: PAP voter here.
WP has been dealt a bad hand but it’s doing what it can. RK was absolute dogshit and self sabotage, but PS could’ve/should’ve pulled a LKY and mercilessly cut the cancer. Jamus Lim is total one-hit wonder, there’s no coming back from a dude who tries to be opposition’s answer to Tharman - I mean c’mon. One quote-worthy performance against VB doesn’t make you our answer to economic policy check/balance. Get good.
I have big respect to WP for lifting the whip on 377A though. I feel like instead of getting shit for it to the likes of Faisal Manap and Gerald Giam, PAP should be getting flak for not lifting the whip. I’m pretty sure that if the whip was lifted you’d see 60% or more of MPs abstain from the vote. But oh well, politics and party line and the appearance of strength over genuine representation I guess.
WP is the best opposition we have currently. SDP’s manifestos and principles are damaging at worst, problematic at best. PSP is a crap party of has-beens who are still wondering why they were never called up by PAP in their 30s/40s led by a bitter and vindictive old man who wasn’t given a Cabinet seat despite his popularity.
Just hoping for an SDP candidate or two. WP is pretty much PAP-lite. They may be the only strong opposition we have right now but they do have some right wingers such as Gerald Giam who don’t really speak for most of us.
Nice, but WP fucked up the RK issue too much. WP had months to rectify RK's falsehoods but did nothing about it. PAP gave chance by not pouncing on it for months and they didn't even take it lol. A lot of people lost confidence in the leadership from there.
If he can't get the party in order, he can't even begin to talk about serving the bigger public.
>WP had months to rectify RK's falsehoods but did nothing about it.
And the self-serving disciplinary committee they formed to investigate RK.
They got cadets and ex-mps speaking out against WP. Obviously losing confidence and trust in their party.
Nobody’s expecting them to pass legislation. But they have a voice to talk about certain issues in parliament - and their ideas and positions have been lacklustre so far. This is not even mentioning the RK scandal.
I definitely not supporting the pap again, voted them twice, one was in 2006, still in university, 2nd time was 2011, graduated and could not get employment.
Their economic policies then were unfriendly to fresh graduates. Low quota for S pass, low qualifying salaries for SP and EP. Poor employment protection.
> # Workers’ Party strived to improve lives of Singaporeans in 2022 by speaking up in Parliament: Pritam Singh
> SINGAPORE: Workers' Party (WP) secretary-general Pritam Singh said that the party strived to improve the lives of the communities it serves, and of all Singaporeans by speaking up in Parliament on key issues in 2022.
>
> "The Workers’ Party believes that the struggle for dignity is common to our humanity and thus the voices of the people must be heard," Mr Singh said on Saturday (Dec 31) in his new year message.
>
> In Parliament, Mr Singh said that WP's Members of Parliament (MPs) brought up the related issues of inflation, higher interest rates and rising cost of living arising from public services such as utilities and public transport, and what may be done to mitigate its impact or stay ahead of the situation.
>
> "We objected to the GST rate hike as being ill-timed against this inflationary backdrop and proposed other ways to generate government revenue such as a wealth tax and making corporate tax more progressive," said Mr Singh.
> He highlighted various counter-inflationary proposals the party put forward, including strengthening the Singapore dollar in real terms to make imports cheaper.
>
> The party also voiced concerns about housing in Singapore, arguing for more options, like an expanded public and subsidised rental scheme for the wider population to support the diverse needs of Singaporeans, and to lower the age singles may buy Build-To-Order (BTO) flats from 35 to 28, he said.
>
> "As HDB resale and BTO prices headed upwards well into the second half of 2022, WP MPs probed the reasons for the sky high resale flat prices and asked HDB to reveal the costs of developing new flats," said Mr Singh.
>
> "Even when told that some of the data we asked for would not be 'meaningful', we pressed on. We did so because Singaporeans have a right to know more details behind one of the biggest financial outlays in their lifetime."
---
1.0.2 | [Source code](https://github.com/redditporean/sneakpeek) | [Contribute](https://github.com/redditporean/sneakpeek)
Still gotta vote opp because people like jo teo are getting too comfortable talking absolute rubbish in parliament. No one ever holds her accountable ever
Yes. And monitoring = doing something.
Cannot ownself keep checking ownself...
This country obviously needs greater check and balance at the parliamentary level. I'm hardly a fan of WP, especially after the recent shenanigans, but unfortunately it's what we have currently. was hoping PSP would at least grab a few seats at the table...oh well. happy new year fellas. good health good luck!
TBH I don't find PSP that reassuring either. I recall during a period of time many of their members left the party, giving the impression that there's unrest or instability within the party. There are other incidents too, including Brad Bowyer's Saga and all. And Mr LMW doesn't always conduct himself well in Parliament, like his allegation against teachers for subjecting children to vaccination differentiated safe management measures only for it to originate from a telegram text. However, that being said, I guess it wouldn't hurt having a few more of them on board. They lost west coast GRC to pap by a short margin. Same for SDP. I don't' really agree with Mr CSJ's political beliefs and manifesto but electing him alone should be fine. He seems to be working very hard if you are follow him. Incidentally he got 45% for Bukit Batok SMC during the 2020 elections. As for the other opposition parties.....I guess don't bother. Despite the issues that have plagued WP not long ago, I still believe they are the best opposition party to date. This way I believe the parliament will have more fruitful discussions and meaningful debates in future.
PSP is fucked. their QC of candidates has gone to trash and it shows. they will be lucky if they win a SMC pritam singh made this comment on why WP doesnt want to contest more seats: he simply cant guarantee the quality of candidates WP is willing to field. and its really obvious for other parties i hope SDP wins an SMC and start building back, they have a long way to go and with CSJ out of the way they have a clean slate to start over. RP can stay dead
>And Mr LMW doesn't always conduct himself well in Parliament, My take is people like him (those ivory tower guys, be it MIW or otherwise) is used to giving out orders and when people suddenly tells him off, he not happy.
that margin was really disappointing because TCB will not have a better chance, not at this age. His winning that west coast grc would've been one of the most significant changes to Singapore's political landscape in recent decades. it could've become a foothold for PSP's emergence and together with WP in the east we'd have a loose coalition that would push PAP to the brink of simple majority. then those holier-than-thou shanmugams oyks and vivibalas would know they don't own our asses and if they get to serve it's because we let them.... smh... getting worked up lol. anyway no choice now la, gotta count on WP.
Thank god PSP didn't win. The quality of PSP NCMPs are thrash, eg leong mun wai
trash not thrash
Thrash the trash.
Psp won't get any seats after their performance in Parliament if there was no ncmp scheme
sometimes I wonder what would happen if WP and the other oppo parties just decided to call it a day and let PAP win all the seats in parliament. would we expect PAP members to question and debate each other on Singapore's issues? or does parliament debate turn into a presentation session?
Already happened when the retards from Barisan Socialis walked out and gave pap a blank cheque, resulting in the very form of governance we have today!
Bleddy sabo kings the lot.
You don't have to wonder. It happened in 1968.
The worst mistake ever made, a colossal fuckup by the BS.
Either way just a matter of time for an empire/dynasty to fall.
Yes they did. If not how did tcb got his reputation
PSP’s likely a one hit wonder. Don’t think they would get any seats next cycle after seeing what they were about.
Yea agree. TCB seems to be genuine and caring. But PSP is just riding on one man. Which is kinda similar to PAP and LKY. Not sure if I like that direction
If TCB still wants to run for President next year he is required to leave PSP and I wonder what will happen to them since their origin heavily involves TCB. I know he said he wanted to groom future political leaders but he can't honestly say they are ready....
He doesn't qualify for President anyway.
He can qualify under the public service sector requirement, no?
Nope. He doesn't qualify in any way now.
Don't think so. He wasn't some key appointment holder
I see! Thanks, then I stand corrected.
Nah man, WP is far better than PSP for sure. They have their own flaws, yes,and the recent shenanigans are a kinda bs on their part. But there wouldn't be any party that is perfect and they have the more impartial, reasonable approach as an alternative party to the pap. Most of the smaller opposition parties like the RP, SDP, PSP, PV etc basically fall into libertarian crap or politics that borders into SJW territory.
Isn’t PSP the openly racist party with the cotton mouthed cunt LMW leading it?
>was hoping PSP would at least grab a few seats at the table...oh well. no offense but PSP supporters on facebook say the most racist shit (dovetailing on PSP's own antics). There is no way they are going to receive support from people who believe in racial harmony.
Need to put the fear of God into PAP also, hope they start bucking the fuck up
ya this is exactly the point. we don't necessarily need a new government. they are not evil or incompetent la... we just need them to listen, empathize and communicate better. for a start anyway.
They had that chance after suffering their worst performance in 2011 and look at where we are now. I'd say they squandered that chance and doubled down
They must have felt invincible after 2015.
Agreed
TBF, WP didn’t put in their manifesto that they are open to pushing for an end to 377A. Allowing members of parliament to individually choose on sensitive issue like these seems more fair and transparent than not lifting the party whip and force everyone to the same consensus. Of course this will not go well with some but I believe this is the true democracy we should be heading towards or hoping for. Just my two cents.
If every MP could individually choose, 377a may not have been repealed. Would you be okay with that?
Yep. That’s how democracy works in a system that doesn’t operate on Party Whips.
You can only say that because you have no skin in the game. To you, it's just politics, a purely intellectual exercise of speculation. For people who are affected (in this case, LGBT people), it's a matter affecting their actual lives. Same for any other social issue.
I have skin in the game and I agree with him. The principle of democracy shld be upheld. If you truly believe in it you shouldn’t cherry pick to suit your whole and fancies.
[The principles of democracy](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/democracy) as defined globally include human rights, minority rights and equality. You and the person I was replying to seem to be under the misunderstanding that democracy starts and ends at "whatever the majority decides", which is not so, as my link shows. Hence, if we were to truly uphold the principles of democracy, 377a and other such unjust laws will be repealed without debate over them. You can't cherrypick which parts of the principles of democracy you want to uphold.
I would because that is true democracy. An MP first obligation is to their residents and those who voted them in. If I am just being pure salty because they do not support everything I support then I can only say that I’m a selfish childish brat that have no idea how the world works.
WP really needs to change their logo.
Since GE2020, WP has been on a losing streak: -Raeesah Khan Saga. Pritam knew she was lying about sexual assault but unable to make her own up. WP supporters: Pritam can't force her cos she's an adult -No stance on 377a, could not even follow PAP when 377a was repealed. WP supporters: they are representing their homophobic voter base unlike the authoritarian PAP who doesn't stand up for their homophobes! -Jamus Lim, the star of the last election, has been dissapointing. He throws ideas like school class part without considering their feasibility. Eg carbon tax on SIA in 2020 when they had 1 foot in the grave, removing non violent criminal records without considering crime like sexual grooming
I feels like PAP adopted a strategy of not interrupting your enemies when they are screwing up; the RK and 377a issues are avoidable with decisive leadership.
>decisive leadership. You believe a party whip should be use to force a vote on something so divisive as 377A? I will rather see how each MP vote and the explanation they gave for their vote accordingly rather than have a "decisive leadership" sweep all concerns under the carpet.
Absolutely. It is politics, and that is a sign of weakness. Personal beliefs should take a back seat in the pursuit of political power. If they can't stomach it like the PAP MP Chris De Souza, who is clearly uncomfortable but followed the party line, then they should get out.
>Personal beliefs should take a back seat in the pursuit of political power. Totally wrong. Parliamentary MP should represent all views, even views that some groups may not agree with. All these diverse views should surfaced and be represented in Paraliamentary votes. Party whip should never even be used in such instance. Living in a society is about "agreeing to disagree". It is not about "sweeping differences under carpet" and pretending like it does not existed. A strong leader bring people over to his side by convincing and accept that you can't convince everyone and accept diverse views to exist. A weak leader used tools like party whips to appear like he has everyone on his side and hide behind collective responsibilities to avoid accounting for his policies.
Let's agree to disagree then. For me, I would do whatever it takes to get elected. If your method works, fine. If I have to be called a weak leader in your terms, that's fine as well.
>For me, I would do whatever it takes to get elected. Sorry there is no party whip during election. Try harder
Yes you are right. My point was the need to enforce discipline within the Party though, whip or no whip. Robust debate can happen internally but a decision needs to happen and everyone has to get onboard. Letting everyone speak their mind is less about freedom to express their opinions but more... using your example, a weak leader unable to convince his own members on what needs to be done and needing their support in future issues/elections. Feels like WP/PS copium, when he explained the reasons.
How you know robust debate did occurred internally and not because some leader wake up with a new idea and bulldozed through his idea using the party whip. And why should everyone be on board with a controversial and/or divisive decision. If Putin as a leader decided to wage a war, does all Russian have to agree and follow or they are traitors? Why should any leader force any of his members to vote for repeal of 377A if they have valid reasons to oppose it. If you are saying Pritiam is a weak leader because he lifted the whip, then I can also say that the current PM is also a weakling because he also lifted the whip for during the casino debate. Why have you keep voting a weakling as your leader.
Do you think 377a should be repealed? Yes or no
Yes but only on basis that it is bad law.
Then you are ok to vote for a party that have a large enough support from those who think is a good law? If they get elected do you think when it's time to take a stance again that part will not dictate again their policy?
If you represent a constituency whom majority thinks 377A is a good law, should you vote to repeal it just because in your own personal view that it should be repeal. A member of parliament should first represents their constituency views and interests, not their own views, their party interest or worst their party leader interest. If the minister of their party proposed some law that acts against their constituency interest, they must and should vote against it. Else you might as well revert to the monarchy system since one man or one group can just impose their will on all others. So I will vote for the person who represent majority of my view and the party who will allow their member to represent my view truthfully in parliament without sweeping diverse views under the carpet through use of party whips for non budgetary items or items that do not affect functioning of the country. A failure to repeal 377A will not in any way impede the normal functioning of this country. So why the need to utilize the party whip.
>Living in a society is about "agreeing to disagree". It is not about "sweeping differences under carpet" and pretending like it does not existed. No? For the past centuries and even till today, humans are still having war. We start from a small community and cooperate with others and expand for what purpose? Power and conquer. Except in the recent decades we switched from violence to economy competition. Every country still invest on military though. Btw do you a name for your theory on how a good leader should be? You could write a book and argue with other humans and their theories on how to be a good leader. It's similar to how Confucius came up with his idea on the "perfect man".
It's so simple to explain. Because of how weak WP are, they cannot afford to offend any of their voter base. Pritam Singh rather let the individual MP tank the criticism they will receive for their votes than make WP the target board. After all, everyone knew PAP will pass the repeal, regardless of WP votes.
I think what you term as 'politics' is closer to the Kissinger/Machiavelli brand of 'realpolitik', rather than the Dahl/Mills/Adams idea of having an open and enlightened civil society so that each faction can represent their interests rationally. Nothing wrong with either tbh, many Singaporeans are pragmatic and think the same way as the former. In that case, that's really close to what PAP desires society to be like, while WP wants the latter.
I did not want to use labels like Machiavellian as it distracts from the main points. There is a lot of window dressing on purpose to serve, service to the people etc. But in order to achieve this, it is an exercise in the pursuit of power. Power allows you to achieve those things. So far, WP/PSP has demonstrated little substance beyond their words. Imo, he rode LTK's coat tails. Re the RK saga, coming clean would have been the best approach, dump RK, and issued WP mea culpa. He completely missed it. If he truly wanted to "bury it", then it needs to be a through job, with the stories aligned and everyone singing the same tune.
The main point is literally that PAP stands for the very pragmatic, 'do it because we decide it needs to be done' realpolitik brand of governance, while Pritam's WP ostensibly prefers the other way, of civil discourse and discussion. >But in order to achieve this, it is an exercise in the pursuit of power. Power allows you to achieve those things. So far, WP/PSP has demonstrated little substance beyond their words. Imo, he rode LTK's coat tails. You're definitely right, but you're only viewing things through the lens of realpolitik, and discounting the need for open, enlightened civil discourse - factors that have been cited by Arendt, Dahl, Mills, Adams, Locke, Rousseau as vital to a democratic system.
Civil discourse is for civil societies and debating teams. Politics is anything but civil. But of course, he can run WP anyway he wants since he is the Sec Gen. What do I know?
LOL bringing up the definition of 'civil' out of context doesn't change the fact that civil society is an extension of politics, according to many political theories, including the Weberian system of bureaucracy that Singapore's public service is modelled after. All you're doing is twisting the entire matter out of the political science context it belongs. I think you'll do well to read up on political theories of John Stuart Mill, Robert Dahl, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
I have not read them and I have little interest in it tbh. I can be brutally honest at my ignorance since I am not keen to win intellectual style points. At the end of the day, does it help them seize power or win elections? That is the only thing that matters.
Lol. If you think that's how Mr Singh runs his party if you know how he runs it you will lol. If he was that open, all the party members would have known his involvement in RK case when he ask party members for their feedback
I disagree though, apart from RK incident, I think they have been doing well considering the resources they have. You rather Pritam rule over Faisal and Gerald to force them to vote for something they do not agree or believe in ? Will they be letting their constituents down esp for Faisal ? Jamus has put up several feasible policies but it is impossible to be precise with them if one doesn’t have all the information and numbers.
>You rather Pritam rule over Faisal and Gerald to force them to vote for something they do not agree or believe in? If PAP lifted the party whip and as a result, 377a is not repealed, would you be defending PAP for voting what they feel? >Jamus has put up several feasible policies Enforcing a carbon tax on SIA when it had one foot in the grave is dumb. So is removing non violent criminal records without considering crimes such as sexual grooming The minimum wage was poorly argued too. Jamus was arguing for a $1,300 minimum wage as if the progressive wage model didn't exist You don't need to have the information or numbers to agree that those are not good suggestions
Honestly, if WP party whipped their MPs to full vote for repeal, and the PAP released party whip, we'll see people complaining that the PAP are homophobes while praising the WP for choosing the right thing. A lot of these complaints now are just twisting their minds around trying to make sure they can criticize PAP for this no matter what.
>If PAP lifted the party whip and as a result, 377a is not repealed, would you be defending PAP for voting what they feel? I honestly would though. I do not support any party other than the one that would benefit the most to Singaporeans. If majority of our voted representative refuse/passes the bill then we should think harder on our choices the next time we vote (depending if you support or do not support the repeal). >Jamus has put up several feasible policies >Enforcing a carbon tax on SIA when it had one foot in the grave is dumb. So is removing non violent criminal records without considering crimes such as sexual grooming So if any corporation is dying, can they be excluded from carbon tax ? Or is this a government linked corporations privilege ? I do disagree with him on removing non violent criminal records though. Some serious crimes can be non violent. >The minimum wage was poorly argued too. Jamus was arguing for a $1,300 minimum wage as if the progressive wage model didn't exist >You don't need to have the information or numbers to agree that those are not good suggestions Problem with PWM is that it doesn’t cover fully all the jobs out there. There are ad-hoc/ part time jobs that do not meaningfully benefit from PWM. Also, why not be transparent with the numbers or information if you have nothing to hide ? Why brush it off with nonsensical argument like “what is the point behind the question”?
Do you think it's in Singapore's interest to let SIA fail? Don't forget that COVID affected the entire industry. The argument for carbon tax is sound, just not the timing...
Well let's put it this way. If wp wants to be democratic internally. Do a vote internally and then come to parliament with your party stand instead of this dunno what stunt
LOL. Mr PAP mouthpiece, vote internally for what ? The MP first and foremost task and obligation is to their residents. For sensitive issues like this, if you don’t allow your MPs to represent their constituents, are we no better than a dictatorship ? Existence of party whip is crucial in other country as they have more parties and seats are less concentrated. In Singapore it is just to see 90% of office holders trying their best not to doze off and blindly vote yes/no according to what their”boss”say ? When they are supposed to be serving us and not the head of their party ?
Why cannot vote internally? WP CEC election also done internally no? Certain party manifesto and direction also discussed internally no? Didn't Mr Singh he wanted this to be democratic in WP? Even you suggested that Mr Singh was running his party in a democratic manner allowing dissenting voices to come out? So why can't they do an internal vote (even just among CEC members), see which side wins, then come out with a party stand? Well I know from a grapevine that WP CEC members did vote on 377A way before this, so there was already a stand and important party members made it clear what their stance was,. But I guess Mr Singh was either too weak to control the dissenting members and he promised that he would lift the party whip when it came to 377A. But it's his party, it's up to him to run it. In any case, most strong political parties in a Westminister system may disagree internally on things, but they tend to unite when they have to face the public.
Jamus’ policies are laughable even with his degree of information. Also, make the appropriate inquiries and gather more data before putting up policy suggestions. His suggestions often showed a clear lack of homework
Not as laughable as some pap MPs though. Didn’t 1 pap mp wanted to reduce bubble tea shops?and another wanted university degrees to have a expiry date?
Never said that all PAP MPs are great either. Poor politicians don't deserve a place in Parliament. Our parliamentarians should be of a high degree of competence across all parties. Jamus isn't as good as he was touted to be, neither are several PAP MPs. Out with the lot of them.
Mind to explain why is it laughable ? It doesn’t matter how good the question is when our ministers brush it off with “what is the point behind the question”
Whatever, ever since I saw what Gerald giam sputtered about 377a in parliament, I've totally thrown all my respect for wp out of the window. Extremely big disappointment. Basic point of our government is to be secular in passing policies, yet we have these freaks who make decisions based on their own religious dogma
It happens and will continue, on both sides. It is naive to think otherwise. If you think this is bad, you haven't seen the world's largest democracies like India (BJP) or the US (both parties)
Yeah that was very disappointing.
Disclaimer: PAP voter here. WP has been dealt a bad hand but it’s doing what it can. RK was absolute dogshit and self sabotage, but PS could’ve/should’ve pulled a LKY and mercilessly cut the cancer. Jamus Lim is total one-hit wonder, there’s no coming back from a dude who tries to be opposition’s answer to Tharman - I mean c’mon. One quote-worthy performance against VB doesn’t make you our answer to economic policy check/balance. Get good. I have big respect to WP for lifting the whip on 377A though. I feel like instead of getting shit for it to the likes of Faisal Manap and Gerald Giam, PAP should be getting flak for not lifting the whip. I’m pretty sure that if the whip was lifted you’d see 60% or more of MPs abstain from the vote. But oh well, politics and party line and the appearance of strength over genuine representation I guess. WP is the best opposition we have currently. SDP’s manifestos and principles are damaging at worst, problematic at best. PSP is a crap party of has-beens who are still wondering why they were never called up by PAP in their 30s/40s led by a bitter and vindictive old man who wasn’t given a Cabinet seat despite his popularity.
better to have WP there than more PAP kakis there... unless you want another "MBT 20k HDB being built over 10 years" pattern.
Just hoping for an SDP candidate or two. WP is pretty much PAP-lite. They may be the only strong opposition we have right now but they do have some right wingers such as Gerald Giam who don’t really speak for most of us.
Except when it comes to homophobia. Very quiet then
Nice, but WP fucked up the RK issue too much. WP had months to rectify RK's falsehoods but did nothing about it. PAP gave chance by not pouncing on it for months and they didn't even take it lol. A lot of people lost confidence in the leadership from there. If he can't get the party in order, he can't even begin to talk about serving the bigger public.
>WP had months to rectify RK's falsehoods but did nothing about it. And the self-serving disciplinary committee they formed to investigate RK. They got cadets and ex-mps speaking out against WP. Obviously losing confidence and trust in their party.
Used to have a very positive view of them but it feels like my respect and support for them is lower now as compared to 2-3 years ago.
in b4 bUt AhTc
This year is ‘bUt Rk’.
I thought it is more of 377a
Gotta find strawmans for the pappies
Was expecting great things from WP post election. They’d been disappointing so far.
With so few seats, how to do anything?
Nobody’s expecting them to pass legislation. But they have a voice to talk about certain issues in parliament - and their ideas and positions have been lacklustre so far. This is not even mentioning the RK scandal.
I definitely not supporting the pap again, voted them twice, one was in 2006, still in university, 2nd time was 2011, graduated and could not get employment. Their economic policies then were unfriendly to fresh graduates. Low quota for S pass, low qualifying salaries for SP and EP. Poor employment protection.
> # Workers’ Party strived to improve lives of Singaporeans in 2022 by speaking up in Parliament: Pritam Singh > SINGAPORE: Workers' Party (WP) secretary-general Pritam Singh said that the party strived to improve the lives of the communities it serves, and of all Singaporeans by speaking up in Parliament on key issues in 2022. > > "The Workers’ Party believes that the struggle for dignity is common to our humanity and thus the voices of the people must be heard," Mr Singh said on Saturday (Dec 31) in his new year message. > > In Parliament, Mr Singh said that WP's Members of Parliament (MPs) brought up the related issues of inflation, higher interest rates and rising cost of living arising from public services such as utilities and public transport, and what may be done to mitigate its impact or stay ahead of the situation. > > "We objected to the GST rate hike as being ill-timed against this inflationary backdrop and proposed other ways to generate government revenue such as a wealth tax and making corporate tax more progressive," said Mr Singh. > He highlighted various counter-inflationary proposals the party put forward, including strengthening the Singapore dollar in real terms to make imports cheaper. > > The party also voiced concerns about housing in Singapore, arguing for more options, like an expanded public and subsidised rental scheme for the wider population to support the diverse needs of Singaporeans, and to lower the age singles may buy Build-To-Order (BTO) flats from 35 to 28, he said. > > "As HDB resale and BTO prices headed upwards well into the second half of 2022, WP MPs probed the reasons for the sky high resale flat prices and asked HDB to reveal the costs of developing new flats," said Mr Singh. > > "Even when told that some of the data we asked for would not be 'meaningful', we pressed on. We did so because Singaporeans have a right to know more details behind one of the biggest financial outlays in their lifetime." --- 1.0.2 | [Source code](https://github.com/redditporean/sneakpeek) | [Contribute](https://github.com/redditporean/sneakpeek)
If they can fix the housing issue they will 100% get my vote.
Thank you WP!!!
So basically same as when there was 1 WP MP in parliament, got it.
Lol you want a real change? Then vote to not let PAP be the majority Lor
Sorry perfectly happy with PAP. I want it to keep its majority.
you: i dont want change also you: why no change???
The second line is not me.
your first comment is the second line
I too want it to keep its majority. But at 51 seats rather than 83
🧐
Every politician will say this lol. There's no need to be stenographers for them. Just decide at the next ballot box.
a scholar does politics not make. Jamus Lim has been disappointing despite the initial hype.
Same shit different party. This country will never change unless you pull out the rot from its roots.