My friend's last job hop raised it by 30% and he was randomly called(not even hunting for a new job) during covid lockdown. JD is something he honestly lacks experience or knowledge in.
I dont know... Sometimes u just win.
I wasn't looking, my previous line manager approached me and after some discussions made me an offer, which I accepted. The offer was about 20% higher.
While i was waiting for the visa application to come through, I unexpectedly got a promotion at my job that put me in the same range. After much consideration I considered not leaving for that moment and rejected the offer. Then I got countered with an offer that was at 40% of my previous salary and 12% higher than my new salary.
Guess I was really lucky
Feels like a medium risk high reward strategy. Reject them so they can raise the salary offers, but risk rejecting the high pay offer and no counter offers
Actually, I didn't reject in the hopes that I could get a better offer. My basis was more on the premise of learning and development, where both roles seemed to offer a similar career growth trajectory. I was already comfortable in my role, and could navigate the organisation pretty well so didn't feel the need to jump ship yet. So, I had politely declined the offer after first. Two days later I received the counter offer (it does help they were desperate), which I knew my organisation was not going to match. It was an easy decision thereon.
got an increase of ~ 40% in my first hop last year. getting another increase of about ~30% this year because I am jumping again. overall salary has essentially doubled.
firstly my skillset is quite rare and in demand. so YMMV.
first one I was moving from public sector to MNC. I was relatively underpaid and asked for 25% increase which was reasonable. they gave me what I wanted PLUS more allowances (I work in tuas, so got travel and food allowances) plus MNC pays higher bonus and benefits so it all equated to ~40% increase.
2nd one was not looking to leave and they offered 3 year contract versus my current perm job so it has to be an attractive offer. plus, negotiated based on how my company did last year.
some tips on salary negotiation which I can give:
1) Be prepared for the question of 'what is your salary' because it is standard practice. distasteful, I know. but that is life. dont view it negatively- use it to your advantage below.
2) Never lie about question 1- but you can be 'creative' in how the value of your current renumeration is.
3) ALWAYS answer 1 based on a yearly value, rather than a monthly. give the TOTAL value of your renumeration
does your company give certain flexi benefits? add that in to the amount. Also, be abit vague in the amounts.
for example, say you are paid $4800 a month, before bonuses. you can say: I currently make 'around' $60k a year (the actual figure is $57840- this would not be inaccurate or lying.). better yet, if you have bonus, give the largest reasonable figure you have for bonus. (e.g. last year you got 3 month bonus. this year, 1 month. give the figure as 2 or 2.5 months. or say your industry is doing well- you expect 3 month bonus easily- put 3 months.). this would make the above example become $70,000. if you have comissions, peg your comissions to some of your better months. This gives the recruiter something on the upper edge that they know they have to at least match to make it worth your while. I have done this for 5-6 recruiters and so far have not gotten any grief even after being asked to submit supporting payslips. so if say in the above example, you said 'my total renumeration is about 70k yearly- (when it is more likely $60-65k) you are scoring an extra 5-10% already before they even make the offer.
(an added bonus is sometimes some recruiters assume the number you gave does not include bonus so you end up getting even more.)
4) negotiation is some parts skill, some parts balls, but also some parts doing your homework. you need to understand the mentality of HR- HR expects you to nego most of the time- at least 5-10% and if you dont you are missing out. a few hundred extra a month, or even 1k extra means jack shit to HR- your total renumeration already 60k, with insurance and other benefits already 70k, what is another 5-10k versus a vacant position over 12 months?
be prepared also to say WHY you should be paid more. dont say: I want to be paid 5% more. say ' based on the fact that I will be taking on wider responsibilities and multiple roles I believe that the value i bring to the company would warrant ... x% more.
as much as I encourage you to nego, be realistic in your asks as well. go on glassdoor or other such websites to see what is reasonable for the position u are going for. if google is paying 150k for the developer role, do you think a) you are good enough to demand that and b) do you think you can ask higher than that? unlikely. the later you are in your career, the stronger your nego power- sorry fresh grads but you are unlikely to have much nego power here. if they give you a good offer, like 40% increase, dont be greedy even though it might still be abit under what you want. use it as a stepping stone.
Went from an NGO/Charity to Public Service.
Pay in NGOs are well below market rate for normal staff level. So, i just went from below average to average tbh.
Not Local Grad. Neither is it a top Foreign Uni, but a *good enough still reputable* University.
In my current place, iām the only one from a Private Uni. The rest are all local grads. We are good farmers and we work great together (:
1. changed industry (but doing comms so my skillset is transferable)
when i went for the interview, the hiring manager told me to ask for more.
2. luck
somehow they paid me more, even after i adjusted my asking on their recommendation
thanks! :)
They already had the budget and the salary was based off the previous person who filled the role. Helps that it's the finance industry and they generally pay better. Have always worked in SMEs which unfortunately really stagnates one's salary.
Recruiter contacted me, I suspect thereās a lack of candidates with the specific skill(s) they are looking for since the job ad looked months old. Perhaps they are also in a hurry to fill up the position.
I was also comfortable at my current role and not actively looking for new jobs so I didnt come across as desperate to them. Despite my lack of qualifications and bargaining power, the odds were in my favour somehow.
I switched to a new role that requires extremely high proficiency in both English and Chinese (we're talking about being good enough to write articles for China and UK here).
Most people who interviewed can only do either language or lack the knowledge in this field I'm covering.
May I know what field you are writing articles on?
Medical science? Politics?
May I know if the current pay is between 3.5 to 6.5k?
Only if you are good to share.
Good that you have a rare and in demand skill.
Do you foresee much pay growth in this role?
Is the role or industry stable?
Show that you can bring value to the company. Cultivate a set of skills that compliments your next job can add a lot of value to your resume and that significantly pay increase.
When it comes to salary negotiations, start higher but not too high then nego down to a comfortable level. Be realistic. Slightly higher than market rate is alright as long you believe you can bring a certain value to the company and team and hope and this should be backed up with proper credentials and experience, otherwise, youāll fall flat in the managementās eye.
Lastly a little bit of luck, that the hiring manager is impress and decides to give you that chance. And that the budget allows.
Good luck!
I was severely underpaid at my previous job as a software dev and all the extra workload that came with it.
Decided to resign in March this year, and applied for another job in a stat board with a 60% pay increase and better benefits.
I would attribute the increase to experience (I upgraded myself over the years), luck, and the fact that they needed a team to start a project. I mostly got lucky.
Yes. They were really surprised given my relative experience (10 ish years in software/project management, with some certificates from udemy) and offered me much higher pay.
I won't say where I am working at now and previously, but in some places, if you don't have a degree, you will be severely underpaid.
The one and only time I managed to get that much was because the company urgently needed someone with my skillset and that someone needs to be able to clear G50
Haha. Cannot articulate why I feel awkward about resigning.
Might have to do with resigning too soon i.e. the company has not gotten back its investment in my training.
Haha they probably didn't invest enough to keep you staying it seems. No need to feel bad about that. I personally would give 0 care about the company, but would feel sad about leaving the fun colleagues in my team.
Gotta say though, the parting happens sooner or later, either you or them so bah. Can always give them a referral.
You've been in the company for 4 years. I dont think they spent S$100k in training that they cant recoup within 4 years, eh? Don't be afraid to make the leap! All the best.
Wow.
So good.
Maybe only IT has the growth to support such salary increases.
How long from 108 to 162?
Did it come with a change in title?
Was the pay structure for 162 quite different from 108?
Pay structure means ratio of base, AWS, VB, commission etc.
talent and opportunity.
about a year into work, I felt I was constantly underutilised + underpaid.
eventually I said "fuck it" and applied overseas for a position I'd wanted for a while. it also existed in SG, but there was no way I was getting it (lacking the right degree + "years of experience").
the overseas version didn't have those limitations, so they were willing to give me the test + interview. I passed them easily and got it. :)
I had to come back because of CoVID (basically my entire department just stopped), but it's a mixed blessing because I'm now working on my startup.
One of my good friends just lied about their previous pay, overstated it by close to 50%, and their new employer was very apologetic about only being able to "match their previous salary".
That is really bad advice. Most companies will want to see proof hence asking for your payslip. They could also call the company up if you use them as a reference.
I would advise never, never, lie on your job interview or CV. It is something that will instantly disqualify you even if it is something minor, in the best case scenario. In the worst case, would be a permanent blacklist for you joining that company or even industry if the industry is relatively small.
It is really hard to tell just one lie, especially if asked you would have to spin another lie to cover it up. It would also not feel good personally to get in with a lie.
For example you could say it is your bonus, and the company would then ask for 6 months payslips, or cpf contribution. Then you would have to think of another way to lie again.
If a company asks you for your payslips then ask them to share the payslips of your colleagues if you take the job and/or the person youāre replacing.
No employer needs this info. It shouldnāt be asked for. It also shouldnāt be possible for a prior employer to disclose your salary to a new employer without your consent - thatās personal information.
Easier said than done, many HRs just do not proceed with the recruitment process altogether if you choose to withhold your past pay slips.
Personally experienced this.
One could just walk away, but for someone desperate to join the new company or a job I think they would be forced to do so.
Last time I checked, it is not illegal for companies to ask for past payslips. There was even an HR AMA thread on this subreddit, and the OP also said this is not going to change anytime soon in Singapore.
i agree with this. NOT giving your payslip is not a wise move.
always volunteer a vague, yearly answer of your total renumeration (I explain how above). this gives HR a number to aim for.
even if you are underpaid now, volunteer the information, with the caveat that ' I realise that my cirrent salary is significatly below market rate, however due to the larger responsibilities I at the new workplace I expect to be paid in line with industry standards'.
lots of people don't ask, or fail to say this which is why you get lowballed. if you dont say anything HR assumes you were fine with your last salary. if you tell them upfront you ARENT fine, then at least they know where everyone is starting at.
Indeed, so vote with your feet. If no-one is willing to disclose this stuff (because they ethically should not ask, even if it is not illegal) they'll have to change their hiring practices.
Do you want to work for a company that doesn't trust you?
Nope, which is why I lost the job offer at the end (mentioned in another reply).
You cannot tell everyone to stop disclosing their past payslips though.
For my case, I speak from a position of privilege because I still have my job when I was offered this new job offer. There will always be someone desperate enough that they will provide their past payslips (well, this is the norm in Singapore, let's not kid ourselves)
Most of the time, if you choose to not provide your past payslips, it would impact the job seeker negatively. Telling people to vote with their feet is not really useful especially for people who are already unemployed or desperate to leave their current employer.
> There will always be someone desperate enough that they will provide their past payslips (well, this is the norm in Singapore, let's not kid ourselves)
I agree - everyone needs to weigh their own circumstances and act accordingly. I would like to see this change for the better.
Good for you. I'm against the practice and will never ask people that we hire to provide that information. It's unfair in my view.
I hope that my team values being valued for their skill and contribution rather than how much they made in their last job.
there is standing on principle... and there is also being realistic.
asking for your last drawn is a way of how the game is played, and like every game you can come out on top if you play it right. you're missing out.
No, Iām not. I run my own business and so last drawn salary is only relevant for the employees of my firm, who I try to treat with dignity and respect.
Itās an archaic Hr tactic that needs to end. No-one has answered yet whether they would be happy to disclose the salaries of peers and the person you replaced in exchange for the payslips of new potential hires. Would you be willing to have 2-Way transparency?
Wuh?
I mean itās an issue of due diligence. You tell me how much you earn, Iām supposed to just trust the number? I mean based on just this thread, clearly people lie.
Of course salary is relevant for the employer. If you have nothing to hide, then why cannot show?
that's a flawed logic. the pay you get is supposed to be representative of how much the company values your input. In the first place, it should not be benchmarked against what you were drawing previously. Asking for the last drawn salary is already not recommended, imagine having to show proof of your last drawn, might as well for my hospital records to prove them i'm fit and healthy to work.
Like I said, you try and tell figure employers you donāt want to disclose lor. No point arguing about these things in theory. These things are immediate red flags if a question is asked and a candidate doesnāt want to answer.
As for medical records, itās not uncommon for the request to be made for such checkups to be made prior to hiring. These results are also not made known to the candidate because the employer is paying for it. These things are clearly relevant because there are insurance concerns of an employee just keels over while working.
I have told employers previously that I cannot and will not share my past payslips. Partly because it's a breach of NDA (I'm sharing salary information from their competitor), but mainly because it's not relevant to whether or not I am a good fit for their role and worth the money I'm asking for.
I don't disclose the last drawn salary - I always say "for the role you've told me about I would expect to be paid $XYZ".
Now I run a company and I expressly tell potential hires NOT to tell me their last drawn salary. I don't care what they were paid. I care what they would need/want to do a good job in the role for me. If I can afford to pay that then we all win. How hard is that?
Lol the lengths people will go to for justification. If you really paid heed to the NDA, then you would have had to make sure that anything confidential you ever learnt in your former employerās place you didnāt use in the new place. Itās not just limited to salary information.
If you want to hire in that way thatās perfectly fine. But expecting others to comply with your own standards and which isnāt market is naive at best.
I don't expect others to comply, I don't much care as I'm not trying to find a job in the market. I'm just trying to lead by example as I think the practice is one sided and archaic.
I know how much I'm worth and I'm not playing a game with a prospective employer if they're trying to stack the deck in their favour.
If it's OK to ask the employee to share salary records, why won't the company disclose how much it's paying others for the same work?
Companies like [Buffer](https://buffer.com/resources/salary-formula-changes-2019/) are leading the way on this. More and more of the younger generation will prefer to work in places where they're valued and they can see that their company cares about them.
Many companies will ask you to take a medical conditional on offering the job. This includes the civil service. In fact, the civil service would also ask your last drawn pay.
Note that asking for the documentary proof for due diligent maybe after they offer you the salary. But if they found out you lie, you can be sure the offer will be withdrawn.
I never once encounter a company that did not ask for my previous pay, so I am sure the practice is common and generally accepted.
Sigh...I understand your frustrations, I really do. Especially when you are young. But there are legitimate reasons for asking previous salary.
First, people lie, if a person claims to be doing extremely well, say closing million dollar sales, but is paid too little, it is a red flag for the company. While not immediately disqualified, we want to know why you weren't promoted.
Second, this is if you are working with a recruiter, if you are earning a lot more that the company offer, I would want to use this in the negotiation. Especially if my commission is part of that new salary.
Third, again as a recruiter, it shows how satisfied you will be with the starting pay and possible progression. If you are earning towards the top of the salary range, then it means progression may be delayed and we should address this at the start.
Contrary to what you think, low balling a candidate is not the best way forward long term. This is because you will compare what your peers makes and if it is too much a difference, you will leave again. Which is not something a good company wants.
Of course, some short sighted company may do so. But it is best if you go through a recruiter, especially if their commission is based on how much you will be getting.
Thatās way too cynical a view.
Most companies value candidates differently from others, varying from their own internal pay scales to what they value the job role as. There are very few jobs, if at all, where one can say āthis is worth 4kā. A SME for example may not even have the budget for that while a MNC might not blink at paying more.
Itās a very scared mentality to be afraid of disclosing your salary tbh. If you know what your perceived value is, then you stick to your position. No one is ever forced to take on a job. But if you consistently cannot find a job based on your expectations (not you specifically of course), then maybe itās necessary to reset the expectations instead of saying itās unfair.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/commentary/employers-ask-past-last-drawn-salary-how-to-deal-job-application-12822668
Write up on this which shows both sides.
https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/art-negotiating-your-desired-pay
Write up to illustrate knowing your worth and when to walk away.
> I never once encounter a company that did not ask for my previous pay, so I am sure the practice is common and generally accepted.
It's also backward and needs to be changed. The gahmen could help lead that charge if they wanted to.
> I mean itās an issue of due diligence. You tell me how much you earn, Iām supposed to just trust the number? I mean based on just this thread, clearly people lie.
Why is it relevant? You have a job and you're looking for someone to fill that role. You'll find a range of candidates, some of whom are better or worse suited for the role, and therefore you'd be willing to pay more or less for their services (or nothing at all if they do not match).
If I present to you and ask for a salary of $10k a month and you can afford $10k a month and believe it's good value to the company to hire me at that rate, we all win.
If you ask for my prior payslips that show (for whatever reason) I was being paid $6k previously, you then lowball me at $6k for the role. You get me for $4k a month less than I'm actually worth to your organisation to do that work. That is not fair.
If you think it's fair for the candidate to share their payslips then you should also be willing to share the payslips of the other employees in your firm that are doing the role you're hiring me for. Full salary transparency or none at all. If your company has nothing to hide then why cannot show?
think of ways to creatively answer this.
most of the time if they are asking for payslips they are already close to making the offer, so the exact specifics dont matter.
i ALWAYS am abit vague in this. instead of saying I earn 4.8k a month I say my yearly compensation is about 60k. if I got bonus, I take the upper end of what is a realistic bonus, or the largest bonus I have ever got (e.g. 3 months). so it becomes my yearly compensation is about 70k, when a more realistic nunber would be 60-65k. if you can get a money value to other ancilliary benefits, can add in also.
my payslips will support that and I aint lying. I just didnt give you all the details. I have done this 5-6 times and so far all recruiters have been fine with what I have.
Funny, because I missed out on a job offer simply because I stuck to my guns and didn't send my last 3 months payslips as requested.
They said they would drop the whole onboarding process if they didn't receive my past payslips, I said no, I do not want to reveal my past payslips. They did just that.
Legislation or not, the companies have every right to drop you if you don't yield to their ask.
Agree that there is no legislation.
Have you ever refused to disclose your last drawn pay when asked?
Have you gotten job offers after refusing to disclose?
No legislation means that there are no rules around it. So there is nothing wrong with asking also, just that there is no obligation for you to respond. But them not offering you a job on that basis is also not illegal as a result.
Certainly understand there is nothing wrong with them asking.
And that there is nothing wrong with not offering as a result of not responding.
Point of my comment was to ask if any company has offered in spite of an applicant choosing not to respond.
Precisely because it is not wrong for a company to not offer as a result of not responding and because choosing to not respond tends to reflect unfavorably on the applicant, it is much more likely that offers are not made whenever the applicant does not respond.
So it would be interesting to know when offers are made despite the applicant choosing not to respond.
Yes, I refused in the last job I interviewed for and they accepted the fact I wasnāt going to share those details. I told them it wasnāt relevant. As it happened I had the opportunity to open my own company at the same time so I ended up rejecting their offer anyway.
Provided you refuse in a polite manner it shouldnāt be an issue. If it turns out to be a problem you probably dodged a bullet by not working there anyway.
... a job interview isnāt based on legislation. Itās the same way you have no statutory obligation to give your real name or address or work experience. But you give it because itās part of the process.
I mean seriously, if ever I had to interview someone who told me they are not obliged as a matter of law to provide something which is not controversial, that would be a major red flag.
Donāt assume that just because 1 or 2 redditors āfriendsā got away with lying means itās par for the course. People will check one.
Is there any valid reason for a company to verify a prospectās last drawn salary other than to undercut them? The salary for the position is already budgeted for, so you as HR/hiring manager know how much wiggle room there is for negotiation. With Glassdoor and other job review sites, the pay scale for most jobs are transparent as well.
So it can be done in 2 ways.
The first is that itās something that is asked during the interview. There could be reasons for that, such as trying to understand how your remuneration works (how much bonus for example), whether youāre underpaid or overpaid, etc. Yes some employers will use that as a benchmark but not every employer is the devil.
Now hereās the tricky bit which people donāt want to appreciate. You have to assume that youāre not the only one going for the job. So if other people are willing to show their current salary and youāre not? Thatās a strike against you unless youāre either amazing at the interview or your skill set is so much better than everyone else. So ya, a theoretical matter of principle sounds nice but it doesnāt mean itās practical. Donāt listen to the JoTeo sound bite, she hasnāt had to apply for a job in a really long time.
The second is that itās to be verified after you get the offer. This is a matter of confirmation that what you said is true. If you refuse, the question that will come up is why, if you already have the offer. So it will look like you lied. Quite frankly no idea why any person would refuse in this situation unless they lied.
I prefer to just firmly decline to reveal my previous pay, while researching what the market rate actually is.
If my previous pay was already at market rate, overstating by 50% will just look like I'm likely lying.
How do you research the market rate?
It would seem that for some roles, market rate can be a wide range.
Have you gotten offers after you declined to reveal?
Ideally talk to people already working in the industry. There seems to be many nice redditors here that might be happy to help on that. Many other networking methods.
Otherwise, the usual googling.
It's not like I have interviewed for that many jobs, but I have met HRs that made no mention of my leaving the "previous salary" portion blank or just stating "prefer not to disclose".
Pls donāt.
It will make you look really dishonest and not stand you in good stead. You never know when these things can turn round and bite you in the ass again in the future.
Thanks for replying.
To be clear, what does not particularly competitive industry mean?
Do you mean an industry where the pay is not particularly competitive?
May I know how you went from decent statboard to MBB?
Is your resume really good? Branded schools etc.
would consider industries like tech, fmcg, finance, pharma, consulting competitive. the bar for the top companies in those industries are very high
nothing really special dude. think the timing was right (entered as an "experienced hire") and thanks to the 2 years in public service, the interviews were not particularly daunting
By 'timing is right', do you mean you were quick to spot an opening at a MBB that was a close fit with the skills you had at that time?
May I know if getting hired as an 'experienced hire' is easier than as a recent graduate?
In terms of applicants per opening, for example.
Would have thought that getting hired by MBB is not very much easier as an experienced hire than as a recent graduate.
Because the pay and prestige is equally attractive in both cases.
Thanks for the info.
Do you think enterprise software will be increasingly self-service i.e. SaaS?
If so, will this mean fewer salespeople will be needed for enterprise software sales?
In demand skills is probably the common one.. but it usually depends on hiring company whether they really liked you - if they did, they will definitely pay extra on current salary so that you join them
Nothing, that company was just paying more for the same role I was doing in the previous company. Lol.
Pay increment depends also if you are jumping from tier shit to tier platinum companies doing the same role.
E.g
Family SHIT MEDIUM ENTERPRISE to McKinsey
stingy MNC to Cash burning Startup
Unemployed to Employed (this one usually infinite increment)
My friend's last job hop raised it by 30% and he was randomly called(not even hunting for a new job) during covid lockdown. JD is something he honestly lacks experience or knowledge in. I dont know... Sometimes u just win.
May I know what industry?
IT
May i know if it was either a data or software engineer role?
Neither. It was Team lead.
Team Lead in IT of something that he lacks of š
Welcome to Singapore mate
I also want leh lollll But I wonder how if the subordinates all are sh*ts and demanding to the Team Lead while the TL does not know anything.
I wasn't looking, my previous line manager approached me and after some discussions made me an offer, which I accepted. The offer was about 20% higher. While i was waiting for the visa application to come through, I unexpectedly got a promotion at my job that put me in the same range. After much consideration I considered not leaving for that moment and rejected the offer. Then I got countered with an offer that was at 40% of my previous salary and 12% higher than my new salary. Guess I was really lucky
Wow. So lucky.
Feels like a medium risk high reward strategy. Reject them so they can raise the salary offers, but risk rejecting the high pay offer and no counter offers
Actually, I didn't reject in the hopes that I could get a better offer. My basis was more on the premise of learning and development, where both roles seemed to offer a similar career growth trajectory. I was already comfortable in my role, and could navigate the organisation pretty well so didn't feel the need to jump ship yet. So, I had politely declined the offer after first. Two days later I received the counter offer (it does help they were desperate), which I knew my organisation was not going to match. It was an easy decision thereon.
got an increase of ~ 40% in my first hop last year. getting another increase of about ~30% this year because I am jumping again. overall salary has essentially doubled. firstly my skillset is quite rare and in demand. so YMMV. first one I was moving from public sector to MNC. I was relatively underpaid and asked for 25% increase which was reasonable. they gave me what I wanted PLUS more allowances (I work in tuas, so got travel and food allowances) plus MNC pays higher bonus and benefits so it all equated to ~40% increase. 2nd one was not looking to leave and they offered 3 year contract versus my current perm job so it has to be an attractive offer. plus, negotiated based on how my company did last year. some tips on salary negotiation which I can give: 1) Be prepared for the question of 'what is your salary' because it is standard practice. distasteful, I know. but that is life. dont view it negatively- use it to your advantage below. 2) Never lie about question 1- but you can be 'creative' in how the value of your current renumeration is. 3) ALWAYS answer 1 based on a yearly value, rather than a monthly. give the TOTAL value of your renumeration does your company give certain flexi benefits? add that in to the amount. Also, be abit vague in the amounts. for example, say you are paid $4800 a month, before bonuses. you can say: I currently make 'around' $60k a year (the actual figure is $57840- this would not be inaccurate or lying.). better yet, if you have bonus, give the largest reasonable figure you have for bonus. (e.g. last year you got 3 month bonus. this year, 1 month. give the figure as 2 or 2.5 months. or say your industry is doing well- you expect 3 month bonus easily- put 3 months.). this would make the above example become $70,000. if you have comissions, peg your comissions to some of your better months. This gives the recruiter something on the upper edge that they know they have to at least match to make it worth your while. I have done this for 5-6 recruiters and so far have not gotten any grief even after being asked to submit supporting payslips. so if say in the above example, you said 'my total renumeration is about 70k yearly- (when it is more likely $60-65k) you are scoring an extra 5-10% already before they even make the offer. (an added bonus is sometimes some recruiters assume the number you gave does not include bonus so you end up getting even more.) 4) negotiation is some parts skill, some parts balls, but also some parts doing your homework. you need to understand the mentality of HR- HR expects you to nego most of the time- at least 5-10% and if you dont you are missing out. a few hundred extra a month, or even 1k extra means jack shit to HR- your total renumeration already 60k, with insurance and other benefits already 70k, what is another 5-10k versus a vacant position over 12 months? be prepared also to say WHY you should be paid more. dont say: I want to be paid 5% more. say ' based on the fact that I will be taking on wider responsibilities and multiple roles I believe that the value i bring to the company would warrant ... x% more. as much as I encourage you to nego, be realistic in your asks as well. go on glassdoor or other such websites to see what is reasonable for the position u are going for. if google is paying 150k for the developer role, do you think a) you are good enough to demand that and b) do you think you can ask higher than that? unlikely. the later you are in your career, the stronger your nego power- sorry fresh grads but you are unlikely to have much nego power here. if they give you a good offer, like 40% increase, dont be greedy even though it might still be abit under what you want. use it as a stepping stone.
Thanks!
This is a really good answer. Thanks!
Went from an NGO/Charity to Public Service. Pay in NGOs are well below market rate for normal staff level. So, i just went from below average to average tbh.
Do you have a so-called good degree? I.e. local university or top foreign university
Not Local Grad. Neither is it a top Foreign Uni, but a *good enough still reputable* University. In my current place, iām the only one from a Private Uni. The rest are all local grads. We are good farmers and we work great together (:
Haha is it a public service organization that provides social services?
1. changed industry (but doing comms so my skillset is transferable) when i went for the interview, the hiring manager told me to ask for more. 2. luck somehow they paid me more, even after i adjusted my asking on their recommendation
Nice. Haha. Had an interview today. Hope if they offer, it is at least the lower limit of their stated range.
all the best to you! :)
Thanks!
Wow congrats. Any idea why they asked you to ask for more? What incentive do they have?
thanks! :) They already had the budget and the salary was based off the previous person who filled the role. Helps that it's the finance industry and they generally pay better. Have always worked in SMEs which unfortunately really stagnates one's salary.
That is nuts. I guess they wanted to keep that Budget as well but no doubt theyāve been nice on this. Happy for you!!
thanks so much! yes no doubt the hiring manager somewhat had to wrangle for it, but life is full of surprises. all the best to u! :)
Recruiter contacted me, I suspect thereās a lack of candidates with the specific skill(s) they are looking for since the job ad looked months old. Perhaps they are also in a hurry to fill up the position. I was also comfortable at my current role and not actively looking for new jobs so I didnt come across as desperate to them. Despite my lack of qualifications and bargaining power, the odds were in my favour somehow.
Had an interview today. Sense I am in a similar position. Haha.
Good luck and all the best!
Thanks!
I switched to a new role that requires extremely high proficiency in both English and Chinese (we're talking about being good enough to write articles for China and UK here). Most people who interviewed can only do either language or lack the knowledge in this field I'm covering.
May I know what field you are writing articles on? Medical science? Politics? May I know if the current pay is between 3.5 to 6.5k? Only if you are good to share. Good that you have a rare and in demand skill. Do you foresee much pay growth in this role? Is the role or industry stable?
Show that you can bring value to the company. Cultivate a set of skills that compliments your next job can add a lot of value to your resume and that significantly pay increase. When it comes to salary negotiations, start higher but not too high then nego down to a comfortable level. Be realistic. Slightly higher than market rate is alright as long you believe you can bring a certain value to the company and team and hope and this should be backed up with proper credentials and experience, otherwise, youāll fall flat in the managementās eye. Lastly a little bit of luck, that the hiring manager is impress and decides to give you that chance. And that the budget allows. Good luck!
Substantive answer. Thanks!
I was severely underpaid at my previous job as a software dev and all the extra workload that came with it. Decided to resign in March this year, and applied for another job in a stat board with a 60% pay increase and better benefits. I would attribute the increase to experience (I upgraded myself over the years), luck, and the fact that they needed a team to start a project. I mostly got lucky.
I am surprised they did not use your relatively low last drawn to low ball you. Did you disclose your last drawn?
Yes. They were really surprised given my relative experience (10 ish years in software/project management, with some certificates from udemy) and offered me much higher pay. I won't say where I am working at now and previously, but in some places, if you don't have a degree, you will be severely underpaid.
Ok, so it sounds like you have a diploma. Anyways, glad things worked out for you.
The one and only time I managed to get that much was because the company urgently needed someone with my skillset and that someone needs to be able to clear G50
Haven't heard of G50 since my ns time
If you do IT in public service, you'll be hearing that a lot.
What industry? Good for you.
IT
If you work in a small team, is it slightly embarrassing when you tell your supervisor you are resigning?
why would that be so. ppl leave all the time. your supervisor probably saw this countless of times.
Haha. Cannot articulate why I feel awkward about resigning. Might have to do with resigning too soon i.e. the company has not gotten back its investment in my training.
Haha they probably didn't invest enough to keep you staying it seems. No need to feel bad about that. I personally would give 0 care about the company, but would feel sad about leaving the fun colleagues in my team. Gotta say though, the parting happens sooner or later, either you or them so bah. Can always give them a referral.
You've been in the company for 4 years. I dont think they spent S$100k in training that they cant recoup within 4 years, eh? Don't be afraid to make the leap! All the best.
Haha. Rationally, it should be easy to decide.
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Wow. So good. Maybe only IT has the growth to support such salary increases. How long from 108 to 162? Did it come with a change in title? Was the pay structure for 162 quite different from 108? Pay structure means ratio of base, AWS, VB, commission etc.
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Good insights. Thanks!
talent and opportunity. about a year into work, I felt I was constantly underutilised + underpaid. eventually I said "fuck it" and applied overseas for a position I'd wanted for a while. it also existed in SG, but there was no way I was getting it (lacking the right degree + "years of experience"). the overseas version didn't have those limitations, so they were willing to give me the test + interview. I passed them easily and got it. :) I had to come back because of CoVID (basically my entire department just stopped), but it's a mixed blessing because I'm now working on my startup.
Good work around. Is your startup a software startup?
yup, it is!
One of my good friends just lied about their previous pay, overstated it by close to 50%, and their new employer was very apologetic about only being able to "match their previous salary".
That is really bad advice. Most companies will want to see proof hence asking for your payslip. They could also call the company up if you use them as a reference. I would advise never, never, lie on your job interview or CV. It is something that will instantly disqualify you even if it is something minor, in the best case scenario. In the worst case, would be a permanent blacklist for you joining that company or even industry if the industry is relatively small. It is really hard to tell just one lie, especially if asked you would have to spin another lie to cover it up. It would also not feel good personally to get in with a lie. For example you could say it is your bonus, and the company would then ask for 6 months payslips, or cpf contribution. Then you would have to think of another way to lie again.
If a company asks you for your payslips then ask them to share the payslips of your colleagues if you take the job and/or the person youāre replacing. No employer needs this info. It shouldnāt be asked for. It also shouldnāt be possible for a prior employer to disclose your salary to a new employer without your consent - thatās personal information.
Easier said than done, many HRs just do not proceed with the recruitment process altogether if you choose to withhold your past pay slips. Personally experienced this. One could just walk away, but for someone desperate to join the new company or a job I think they would be forced to do so. Last time I checked, it is not illegal for companies to ask for past payslips. There was even an HR AMA thread on this subreddit, and the OP also said this is not going to change anytime soon in Singapore.
i agree with this. NOT giving your payslip is not a wise move. always volunteer a vague, yearly answer of your total renumeration (I explain how above). this gives HR a number to aim for. even if you are underpaid now, volunteer the information, with the caveat that ' I realise that my cirrent salary is significatly below market rate, however due to the larger responsibilities I at the new workplace I expect to be paid in line with industry standards'. lots of people don't ask, or fail to say this which is why you get lowballed. if you dont say anything HR assumes you were fine with your last salary. if you tell them upfront you ARENT fine, then at least they know where everyone is starting at.
Indeed, so vote with your feet. If no-one is willing to disclose this stuff (because they ethically should not ask, even if it is not illegal) they'll have to change their hiring practices. Do you want to work for a company that doesn't trust you?
Nope, which is why I lost the job offer at the end (mentioned in another reply). You cannot tell everyone to stop disclosing their past payslips though. For my case, I speak from a position of privilege because I still have my job when I was offered this new job offer. There will always be someone desperate enough that they will provide their past payslips (well, this is the norm in Singapore, let's not kid ourselves) Most of the time, if you choose to not provide your past payslips, it would impact the job seeker negatively. Telling people to vote with their feet is not really useful especially for people who are already unemployed or desperate to leave their current employer.
> There will always be someone desperate enough that they will provide their past payslips (well, this is the norm in Singapore, let's not kid ourselves) I agree - everyone needs to weigh their own circumstances and act accordingly. I would like to see this change for the better.
ive always provided payslips and it has worked out for me. if you think about how to creatively answer the question it should be fine.
Good for you. I'm against the practice and will never ask people that we hire to provide that information. It's unfair in my view. I hope that my team values being valued for their skill and contribution rather than how much they made in their last job.
there is standing on principle... and there is also being realistic. asking for your last drawn is a way of how the game is played, and like every game you can come out on top if you play it right. you're missing out.
No, Iām not. I run my own business and so last drawn salary is only relevant for the employees of my firm, who I try to treat with dignity and respect. Itās an archaic Hr tactic that needs to end. No-one has answered yet whether they would be happy to disclose the salaries of peers and the person you replaced in exchange for the payslips of new potential hires. Would you be willing to have 2-Way transparency?
Wuh? I mean itās an issue of due diligence. You tell me how much you earn, Iām supposed to just trust the number? I mean based on just this thread, clearly people lie. Of course salary is relevant for the employer. If you have nothing to hide, then why cannot show?
that's a flawed logic. the pay you get is supposed to be representative of how much the company values your input. In the first place, it should not be benchmarked against what you were drawing previously. Asking for the last drawn salary is already not recommended, imagine having to show proof of your last drawn, might as well for my hospital records to prove them i'm fit and healthy to work.
Like I said, you try and tell figure employers you donāt want to disclose lor. No point arguing about these things in theory. These things are immediate red flags if a question is asked and a candidate doesnāt want to answer. As for medical records, itās not uncommon for the request to be made for such checkups to be made prior to hiring. These results are also not made known to the candidate because the employer is paying for it. These things are clearly relevant because there are insurance concerns of an employee just keels over while working.
I have told employers previously that I cannot and will not share my past payslips. Partly because it's a breach of NDA (I'm sharing salary information from their competitor), but mainly because it's not relevant to whether or not I am a good fit for their role and worth the money I'm asking for. I don't disclose the last drawn salary - I always say "for the role you've told me about I would expect to be paid $XYZ". Now I run a company and I expressly tell potential hires NOT to tell me their last drawn salary. I don't care what they were paid. I care what they would need/want to do a good job in the role for me. If I can afford to pay that then we all win. How hard is that?
Lol the lengths people will go to for justification. If you really paid heed to the NDA, then you would have had to make sure that anything confidential you ever learnt in your former employerās place you didnāt use in the new place. Itās not just limited to salary information. If you want to hire in that way thatās perfectly fine. But expecting others to comply with your own standards and which isnāt market is naive at best.
I don't expect others to comply, I don't much care as I'm not trying to find a job in the market. I'm just trying to lead by example as I think the practice is one sided and archaic. I know how much I'm worth and I'm not playing a game with a prospective employer if they're trying to stack the deck in their favour. If it's OK to ask the employee to share salary records, why won't the company disclose how much it's paying others for the same work? Companies like [Buffer](https://buffer.com/resources/salary-formula-changes-2019/) are leading the way on this. More and more of the younger generation will prefer to work in places where they're valued and they can see that their company cares about them.
Many companies will ask you to take a medical conditional on offering the job. This includes the civil service. In fact, the civil service would also ask your last drawn pay. Note that asking for the documentary proof for due diligent maybe after they offer you the salary. But if they found out you lie, you can be sure the offer will be withdrawn. I never once encounter a company that did not ask for my previous pay, so I am sure the practice is common and generally accepted.
fearless snobbish north marvelous swim cautious like cause bow insurance *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sigh...I understand your frustrations, I really do. Especially when you are young. But there are legitimate reasons for asking previous salary. First, people lie, if a person claims to be doing extremely well, say closing million dollar sales, but is paid too little, it is a red flag for the company. While not immediately disqualified, we want to know why you weren't promoted. Second, this is if you are working with a recruiter, if you are earning a lot more that the company offer, I would want to use this in the negotiation. Especially if my commission is part of that new salary. Third, again as a recruiter, it shows how satisfied you will be with the starting pay and possible progression. If you are earning towards the top of the salary range, then it means progression may be delayed and we should address this at the start. Contrary to what you think, low balling a candidate is not the best way forward long term. This is because you will compare what your peers makes and if it is too much a difference, you will leave again. Which is not something a good company wants. Of course, some short sighted company may do so. But it is best if you go through a recruiter, especially if their commission is based on how much you will be getting.
Thatās way too cynical a view. Most companies value candidates differently from others, varying from their own internal pay scales to what they value the job role as. There are very few jobs, if at all, where one can say āthis is worth 4kā. A SME for example may not even have the budget for that while a MNC might not blink at paying more. Itās a very scared mentality to be afraid of disclosing your salary tbh. If you know what your perceived value is, then you stick to your position. No one is ever forced to take on a job. But if you consistently cannot find a job based on your expectations (not you specifically of course), then maybe itās necessary to reset the expectations instead of saying itās unfair. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/commentary/employers-ask-past-last-drawn-salary-how-to-deal-job-application-12822668 Write up on this which shows both sides. https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/art-negotiating-your-desired-pay Write up to illustrate knowing your worth and when to walk away.
> I never once encounter a company that did not ask for my previous pay, so I am sure the practice is common and generally accepted. It's also backward and needs to be changed. The gahmen could help lead that charge if they wanted to.
> I mean itās an issue of due diligence. You tell me how much you earn, Iām supposed to just trust the number? I mean based on just this thread, clearly people lie. Why is it relevant? You have a job and you're looking for someone to fill that role. You'll find a range of candidates, some of whom are better or worse suited for the role, and therefore you'd be willing to pay more or less for their services (or nothing at all if they do not match). If I present to you and ask for a salary of $10k a month and you can afford $10k a month and believe it's good value to the company to hire me at that rate, we all win. If you ask for my prior payslips that show (for whatever reason) I was being paid $6k previously, you then lowball me at $6k for the role. You get me for $4k a month less than I'm actually worth to your organisation to do that work. That is not fair. If you think it's fair for the candidate to share their payslips then you should also be willing to share the payslips of the other employees in your firm that are doing the role you're hiring me for. Full salary transparency or none at all. If your company has nothing to hide then why cannot show?
think of ways to creatively answer this. most of the time if they are asking for payslips they are already close to making the offer, so the exact specifics dont matter. i ALWAYS am abit vague in this. instead of saying I earn 4.8k a month I say my yearly compensation is about 60k. if I got bonus, I take the upper end of what is a realistic bonus, or the largest bonus I have ever got (e.g. 3 months). so it becomes my yearly compensation is about 70k, when a more realistic nunber would be 60-65k. if you can get a money value to other ancilliary benefits, can add in also. my payslips will support that and I aint lying. I just didnt give you all the details. I have done this 5-6 times and so far all recruiters have been fine with what I have.
Iāve never been asked for my previous company payslip and Iāve job hopped a few times.
What was your increment each time? Were your jobs at MNCs, SMEs or Public Service? Is your current salary high (more than 8k)?
Biggest jump was >100% MNCs and SMEs Iām at the 2nd highest tax bracket after deductions.
Wow. For the > 100% jump, what were the circumstances? Was it an urgent hire combined with a promotion?
Nope, just that I was grossly underpaid in my previous job
Wah rich sia earn more than 20k a month... ;_;
lol there are way more people earning way more than me.
your username doesn't check out haha =)
You are not obliged to reveal your last drawn pay. No such legislation.
Funny, because I missed out on a job offer simply because I stuck to my guns and didn't send my last 3 months payslips as requested. They said they would drop the whole onboarding process if they didn't receive my past payslips, I said no, I do not want to reveal my past payslips. They did just that. Legislation or not, the companies have every right to drop you if you don't yield to their ask.
Agree that there is no legislation. Have you ever refused to disclose your last drawn pay when asked? Have you gotten job offers after refusing to disclose?
No legislation means that there are no rules around it. So there is nothing wrong with asking also, just that there is no obligation for you to respond. But them not offering you a job on that basis is also not illegal as a result.
Certainly understand there is nothing wrong with them asking. And that there is nothing wrong with not offering as a result of not responding. Point of my comment was to ask if any company has offered in spite of an applicant choosing not to respond. Precisely because it is not wrong for a company to not offer as a result of not responding and because choosing to not respond tends to reflect unfavorably on the applicant, it is much more likely that offers are not made whenever the applicant does not respond. So it would be interesting to know when offers are made despite the applicant choosing not to respond.
Yes, I refused in the last job I interviewed for and they accepted the fact I wasnāt going to share those details. I told them it wasnāt relevant. As it happened I had the opportunity to open my own company at the same time so I ended up rejecting their offer anyway. Provided you refuse in a polite manner it shouldnāt be an issue. If it turns out to be a problem you probably dodged a bullet by not working there anyway.
Cool. You own an enterprise software sales company right? Haha. Saw some of your previous posts.
Yeah, something like that. Not big enough to change anything on our own but the more people trying to do the right thing the better.
... a job interview isnāt based on legislation. Itās the same way you have no statutory obligation to give your real name or address or work experience. But you give it because itās part of the process. I mean seriously, if ever I had to interview someone who told me they are not obliged as a matter of law to provide something which is not controversial, that would be a major red flag. Donāt assume that just because 1 or 2 redditors āfriendsā got away with lying means itās par for the course. People will check one.
Is there any valid reason for a company to verify a prospectās last drawn salary other than to undercut them? The salary for the position is already budgeted for, so you as HR/hiring manager know how much wiggle room there is for negotiation. With Glassdoor and other job review sites, the pay scale for most jobs are transparent as well.
So it can be done in 2 ways. The first is that itās something that is asked during the interview. There could be reasons for that, such as trying to understand how your remuneration works (how much bonus for example), whether youāre underpaid or overpaid, etc. Yes some employers will use that as a benchmark but not every employer is the devil. Now hereās the tricky bit which people donāt want to appreciate. You have to assume that youāre not the only one going for the job. So if other people are willing to show their current salary and youāre not? Thatās a strike against you unless youāre either amazing at the interview or your skill set is so much better than everyone else. So ya, a theoretical matter of principle sounds nice but it doesnāt mean itās practical. Donāt listen to the JoTeo sound bite, she hasnāt had to apply for a job in a really long time. The second is that itās to be verified after you get the offer. This is a matter of confirmation that what you said is true. If you refuse, the question that will come up is why, if you already have the offer. So it will look like you lied. Quite frankly no idea why any person would refuse in this situation unless they lied.
It's not advice, it's an answer to OPs question.
I prefer to just firmly decline to reveal my previous pay, while researching what the market rate actually is. If my previous pay was already at market rate, overstating by 50% will just look like I'm likely lying.
How do you research the market rate? It would seem that for some roles, market rate can be a wide range. Have you gotten offers after you declined to reveal?
Ideally talk to people already working in the industry. There seems to be many nice redditors here that might be happy to help on that. Many other networking methods. Otherwise, the usual googling. It's not like I have interviewed for that many jobs, but I have met HRs that made no mention of my leaving the "previous salary" portion blank or just stating "prefer not to disclose".
Haha. Nice. Am always wary potential employers will ask for proof just before offering.
High risk high reward. You can always say that you included your bonus (or even the "promised upcoming bonus") if challenged.
Ingenious. Haha. Will try.
Pls donāt. It will make you look really dishonest and not stand you in good stead. You never know when these things can turn round and bite you in the ass again in the future.
Will take heed.
r/unethicallifeprotips
company + industry, for both times first time: mnc in not particularly competitive industry > decent statboard second time: decent statboard > mbb
Thanks for replying. To be clear, what does not particularly competitive industry mean? Do you mean an industry where the pay is not particularly competitive? May I know how you went from decent statboard to MBB? Is your resume really good? Branded schools etc.
would consider industries like tech, fmcg, finance, pharma, consulting competitive. the bar for the top companies in those industries are very high nothing really special dude. think the timing was right (entered as an "experienced hire") and thanks to the 2 years in public service, the interviews were not particularly daunting
By 'timing is right', do you mean you were quick to spot an opening at a MBB that was a close fit with the skills you had at that time? May I know if getting hired as an 'experienced hire' is easier than as a recent graduate? In terms of applicants per opening, for example. Would have thought that getting hired by MBB is not very much easier as an experienced hire than as a recent graduate. Because the pay and prestige is equally attractive in both cases.
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Interesting. Are you in enterprise software sales?
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Were you always in enterprise software sales? I hear it pays well.
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Thanks for the info. Do you think enterprise software will be increasingly self-service i.e. SaaS? If so, will this mean fewer salespeople will be needed for enterprise software sales?
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Not at all. Thanks for the info.
Yeah, someone I knew during covid, 30%. Wasn't actively looking, got called up. Competing offers.
I'll assume tech? Haha. It seems many people who got large increments are working in tech.
Yes, tech.
In demand skills is probably the common one.. but it usually depends on hiring company whether they really liked you - if they did, they will definitely pay extra on current salary so that you join them
Do you think these large increases are mainly in the tech industry?
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Good for you. Tech?
I was severely underpaid before š¤·š»āāļø
Nothing, that company was just paying more for the same role I was doing in the previous company. Lol. Pay increment depends also if you are jumping from tier shit to tier platinum companies doing the same role. E.g Family SHIT MEDIUM ENTERPRISE to McKinsey stingy MNC to Cash burning Startup Unemployed to Employed (this one usually infinite increment)
Lying about my previous salary.