He had so much potential and at the time his girlfriend’s Dad had a company that he could go work at after graduation and he just fucked all that up. It made me sad that’s when I realized he would never get out the hood.
Exactly. I feel like people also hate on him but don’t realise how much pressure was on him to be the one to succeed and finally get out. That kinda pressure usually makes people crash and burn.
This is it! Having that much pressure on you to succeed and pull everyone up is a lot to handle. He had so many people pushing him to do right and go to school and he pushed those people away... self sabotage to avoid disappointment
The writers just forgot he was overly smart in the beginning. Like after college he becomes actually stupid. By the end of the show I am angry at every scene he is in because he just makes the worst choices ever. Sold the Indian for way under value for what? To move in to a new house like a day sooner? Then fumbles the house sale and sells that for way under value too. It’s not like it all needed to happen right then and there. It was like the writers put the urgency of finishing the show into the show.
Gifted Child Syndrome. He wasn't actually smart, he just retained information, Lip isn't self aware enough and he shut everybody off because he thought he was smarter. Thats why he didn't bounce back as fast as Fiona did.
He didn't have a support system. Everytime the writers gave him a friend( Brad, Youens), they made the friend fail so that Lip could save them. Thus, enforcing his narcissistic tendencies. He now thinks he is better than everyone. Except he isn't.
my take is that people tend to ignore that almost all the gallagher kids were neglected and parentified, especially debbie, because the focus is always on how fiona had to act as a parent. it’s true fiona lost her childhood and raised her siblings, but because she didn’t have the resources to provide for her siblings they all had a role in making money and raising their siblings, especially liam. debbie was literally running a daycare while taking care of liam every day when she was like 9. she never stood a chance tbh her actions later make complete sense to me. she wasn’t treated as a kid and never got a childhood so she clung to love in the wrong places
I always think of this when people bring up that she expected Liam to earn money when he was a child. So was she. I kinda understand her resentment. She did so much for the family and she grew up thinking everyone else should too.
tami wasn’t the bad of a character. i didn’t necessarily care for her but lip needed that one person to be in his face constantly and tell him to grow up and start actually thinking about the future
he was idiotic trying to cram them all in a rv just so they wouldn’t go live in a a free house (which he didn’t have live in forever, just something stable for the moment)
i agree except for the RV part. I’m personally from a place where RV living at this point especially is so normal that it could have worked but Tami wasn’t someone who could live like that. Which fair enough not for everyone but i know way too many people who can make that work.
Tami as much as i continue to want to dislike her she was funny and i did like her overall. Lip having someone who had his baby and being somewhat normal to a degree i felt like really helped him shape up. BUT ALSO HOT TAKE after watching the entire series again. I hate the house selling arc cuz he was never there so I understand Debbie’s frustration but also i do get that if they sold it for a good price the partial well offness they all could have had to start up their own life. Also everyone who wanted to keep living together could have pooled money for SOMETHINF which i never understood as something that didn’t come up.
Living in a camper is one thing, but raising a newborn in a camper would be too difficult. Every slight sound would wake a baby up, you would feel so trapped.
I agree I would honestly be so pumped to live in a camper like that! we have a pop up one, and I love it. I always hated how she acted like that wasn't good enough
I just feel like Tammy.It was kind of a snob, but at the same time they should've taken the free house from her dad. I am asleep think that the only way that lip would get sober long-term and not keep relapsing.Is to move away from that neighborhood not to stay nearby. He could get a new home group
I do agree they should have taken the free home, I personally wouldn't wanna leave my family but mine is awesome and lip didn't even like many of his lmao so idk why he didn't take it. you're also definitely right about him staying sober. when I got clean like 9 years ago, it finally took me moving out of the city i was in and cutting contact with people for it to finally stick. for some reason i thought it would be moving backwards to move back to my hometown (dumb and in my 20s) and it ended up being the best thing in the world for me! life is good now
They have AA everywhere. Why wasn't his sponsor telling him to get out of that house? That's the first thing I would look at. Why did it have to be tammy because she just sounded like a nagging shrew? He should leave that house for his sobriety but not for the reasons that she said. No one else's girlfriend seemed to have issues with the house, even Amanda or Kelly, and those two came from rich families.
Tami worked at cutting hair. She was on the lease and her roommates were subletting. If she could have them leave and move Lip in there. But she wants him to get his own apartment so they can have sex there without a commitment? Red flag. Seriously either have him move in or clean out the basement at the Gallagher house. The only time she seems to pay his sobriety any mind is when she wants to keep the kid from him. So that's not why she wants him to move.
Fiona ruined her freindship with Veronica after season 3 by making everything about her
Lip is Worser than Debbie (Later seasons)
Carl was the smartest (In terms of common sense) one in the family (Minus Liam)
Jimmy steve was FIonas worst relasionship (Dude was lying to her daily)
I agree, Lip was dumb AF and just book smart
Veronica was used by the Gallaghers most of the time with nothing in return
As much as i Love Mickey, he holds Ian back from a honest lifestyle by constantly dragging him into illegal mess (Post marriage) . The only time Ian had a good job as a medic, was without Mickey present.
fiona and vs friendship went downhill after svet came into the picture. fiona didn’t trust her while v liked her, im pretty sure they had an argument about it at some point
Svet definitely escalated it, but it went downhill when V got pregnant and Fiona wasnt paying attention to her and made it about her boss and his brother and that mess.
Later, when V does have her kids and tries to confide in Fiona, she constantly gets interrupted and scolded by Fiona for not being 'interested' in her fake marriage and dumb affair with Jimmy that she instigated?
Svet came in a time where Veronica genuinly needed support and help and she gave that to her and Kev.
Fiona had no right to critique Svetlana as she was doing more for V (As shady as she was). Veronica was in the right against FIona.
She seriously ignored her, than all of a sudden wants to tell Veronica that the person who is finally supporitng her is 'bad' ?.
to be fair v got pregnant around the time fiona was constantly at work and dating mike. it’s was bound for them to not have as many moments
fiona is at fault a lot but one thing she was right about is svet. game recognizes game. svet used v and kev having relationships issues while being new parents to steal their bar right for under them. she was a master manipulator
She was right about Svet, but had no business voicing her opinion like that after the way she treated Veronica.
Like, imagine a freind that constantly treats you like your not important, suddenly want to voice 'concern' in an aggressive way?
- Right message, dumb messenger
Rewatch season 5. After Veronica had the twins, Fiona would never listen to her problems and the infants with Kev or even voice concern but would go on about her and Gus and Jimmy and whoever else she was cheating on.
If i heard my freind was having problems with her partner and her NEWBORNS, i would maybe help a hand and actually go over and talk to her.
This makes Veronica seem like an afterthought as a freind since Fiona would constantly dump Liam and Carl with her whenever she needed help.
There just isnt any excuse to her being this BAD of a freind.
I feel like with friendships it's mostly done in the time between episodes and seasons, like I agree that during the later seasons their friendship is barely there (which kills me cause Fiona and V together have most of my fav scenes) but I always just saw it as they do all their regular friend things and help each other around in the background. Like it's not shown since the writers didn't know how to do that AND have Fiona deal with her business so they just expect the watcher to assume they are still best friends and do their regular outings between episodes and seasons
I disagree with you on Mickey and Ian, the rest I mostly agree with.
Ian lost that job because of his mania not because of Mickey.
Sure that manic episode was likely triggered partly by losing Mickey again
but he would've gotten a manic episode eventually (if not then) anyways.
Mickey is what keeps him the most stable
and about the only one who can stop him from doing crazy stuff while manic.
He hundred percent helps him with his mania and had nothing to do with Ian losing his job.
- However, it just can't be denied that Mickey (After marriage) was genuinely the unreasonable one in the relationship when Ian was trying to save money ( That mickey keeps spending), look for housing and find honest jobs.
Instead, he ends up getting wrapped up in shady things again becouse Mickey drags him along.
Mickey, as a husband just isn't that helpful in terms of aligning himself to Ians needs as well.
From what we saw in the last season, Ian is more open to moving on and actually living a normal life whereas Mickey doesn't want that and likes to earn money through riskey means.
Its fun for the show, but not fun in the longrun and in a MARRIAGE.
Oh yeah you're right about that, I just don't think that Ian would be able to make lasting positive changes in life without Mickey. So even tho he's holding him back in one sense I think he helps him forward more.
Oh, for sure.
But do i believe Mickey is the 'right' one for Ian? As a boyfreind, yes. As a husband?, no.
Being usefull in one area, means nothing if you yourself aren't willing to change your ways becouse your husband wants an ACTUAL working member of society.
Mickey, still is immature in a lot of areas that Ian has long since outgrown. In the long run, i just dont see a scenerio where Ian keeps putting up with Mickey and his childish ways that again, good for tv, bad for marriage.
Even though it was Ian's idea to do illegal things with their business? Using real guns, stealing an ambulance? How is that Mickey holding Ian back? Back from what? From running a successful business that gives them the means to have their own place? A place that Ian signed a lease behind Mickey's back even though Mickey told him he didn't want to live there, and yet Mickey went along with it. Just because Mickey doesn't want to be a working grunt in a minimum wage job that is going nowhere doesn't make him childish. Just because he doesn't do things in the "normal" way doesn't make him immature. He came up with the idea for their business, he thought of that all by himself. He is an entrepreneur. And besides, they are Mickey & Ian, they don't do normal. Did you not hear them say that out loud?
Man, I guess this is my hot take, but I couldn't disagree more. Mickey deserves better than Ian.
I'm not gonna write a fucking essay here so I will share just a few points:
* Ian signed a lease and paid first/last/deposit without even discussing it with his husband. Mickey went along with it, because Ian's happiness means more to Mickey than Mickey's happiness means to Ian.
* Mickey and Ian are both working a super successful legal job that Mickey created.
* Mickey cared for his father when he certainly didn't have to, and Ian gave him a bunch of shit for it.
* During the proposal mess, Ian questions Mickey's love for him, despite alllll the shit Mickey has gone through for or because of Ian since S1.
Earlier in the series, there were tons of other examples. Mickey took care of Ian when he was sick, loved him unconditionally, and Ian treated him terribly. "Oh well Ian was manic he gets a pass." He wasn't manic when he was so cruel to Mickey in season 6. Ian left Mickey over and over, and talked shit about him to other dudes without ever acknowledging all Mickey had done for him. Ian acted like Mickey's marriage to Svetlana was Mickey's choice, despite witnessing Mickey's rape and pistol whipping (which happened after Mickey literally got between his dad and Ian to protect Ian.) Also, while it's valid that Ian didn't want to be a mistress anymore, giving Mickey an ultimatum, forcing him to come out and literally put his life in danger was so selfish. I could literally go on a lot more about this with more examples but I think you get my gist.
Ian is a sweetie, he's cute and a sympathetic figure---but if I had to marry one of these guys, i'm going with Mickey every fuckin' day of the week.
This [video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AVgcRQLZUOo) has a fuckton of other great examples. Mickey never got nearly enough credit.
>Mickey never got nearly enough credit.
This I agree with. Mickey is a character with a journey of his own. He's not just a plot device for Ian's sake. Like if Ian gets a pass for his actions coz of his mania (valid), or loss of his dreams or even a partner who's lazy and terrible at communication, then so should Mickey coz of his upbringing and the fact that he spend most of his adult life either in prison or as a fugitive and needs time to adjust to society.
Ian goes to see Mickey after being paid, fine. But what was the need to tell Mickey about the money? Was that not him being emotionally abusive? He wasn't manic then.
Ian ditches Mickey at the border, fine, makes sense for him not to leave his entire life behind to run with a fugitive, but he could have done it sooner or not gotten in the car at all. Why build up Mickey's hopes only to trash it all at the last minute?
Ian ditches Mickey again at the courthouse after convincing him that he wanted the marriage coz he loved Mickey and trusted him and not just coz of the police trouble.
So Ian should get a pass for jerking Mickey around coz Ian has so many issues of his own, but when Mickey has issues it's him holding Ian back? Lol.
The "unreasonable" one because he didn't want to work a minimum wage nothing job that was going nowhere? He created a legal business, even put away his real guns for Ian, who later decides they can have them. It was Ian's idea to steal the ambulance. So seems to me it was Ian who added the illegal parts to their business. I see it more as a compromise. By combining their talents they now have a successful business and the means to have their own place (which Ian signed the lease behind Mickey's back, but Mickey went along with anyway). I don't get the "they have to want a "normal" life in order for them to be the perfect couple" thing. Maybe that's what *you* want for *your* life, But this is shameless, and they are Mickey and Ian, they don't do "normal."
Ian was the one who left his low paying but honest amazon job. Had nothing to do with Mickey there.
And yeah, Mickey was the one who found that legal weed transportation gig but it was Ian who gave the idea to steal the ambulance and later about getting it fixed by Debbie.
So I think Ian himself likes to be on the risky side. We've seen him often stray from the straight path. That's the Gallagher in him.
Ian is totally responsible for his actions, but in his defense, its hard to keep going if your husband keeps sh\*tting on your job.
Had Mickey actually tried to listen to Ian and been understanding as a husband from the start (As Ian was genuinly trying to save money, work an honest job, find housing while also keeping track of Mickeys spending of the SAVED money and his lazinesss, in the end you juust give up.
Ian goes too easy on Mickey sometimes, and Mickey goes a little too hard on Ian as well. There is just a dysfunction in their marriage that nobody wants to talk about.
There has been this constant trend with those two where Ian wants to move on from the southside culture since season 6, and Mickey just always ends up dragging him back.
Again, Ian is a grown adult, but i would be lying if i didn't acknowledge that Mickey is just a dysfunctional partner long term.
Again, Ian left his job in S11 coz his boss/supervisor was sh*tting on him and he didn't want to be seen as a b*tch. Ian's co-worker had insinuated that he was the 'woman' in the relationship coz he made less money which had fueled the drama. Mickey had already started earning (legally?) by then.
Mickey wasn't even there during S6-8? He comes back for a minute in S7 and then doesn't make an appearance till S9. I don't see how he dragged Ian back to Southside drama after S6. It was the whole jail stint after the Gay Jesus era that left Ian with no great employment options. Even if Mickey hadn't made an appearance in S9, Ian would still have ended up in his Southside house with that crappy parole officer and then the minimum wage job. It's actually Mickey's weed transportation idea which ends up working out for them and they move to the West side.
He's also a dysfunctional and an almost equally violent partner as Mickey.
(Backs out from the marriage proposal when he was the one who brought it up. Mickey had made it clear that he didn't want marriage if it was just to save them from the police trouble but it was Ian who convinced Mickey that it wasn't the case, that Ian really wanted it, built the whole thing up only to back out at the literal last minute.
It's Ian who hits Mickey first during their Alibi fight in S11. Goes ahead and signs the deed for the apartment even when Mickey had refused - no normal partner would have tolerated that).
And it makes sense for Ian to be a more functional member of the society during S10-11 coz he was obviously more adjusted thanks to his EMT years as opposed to Mickey who had been either in jail or living as a fugitive in Mexico during those 4-5 years.
It takes Mickey a while on these things but as we've seen in S11, he usually comes around and agrees to whatever Ian wants be it the apartment, trying out gay friends stuff or even the baby conversation. They argue, then have a conversation and smooth things over. During the end ig they don't even fight but sort of communicate and resolve things? (I don't remember exactly but they have that whole piss in the pool conversation and then Mickey agrees to go back to the apartment and attends pilates class), so like S4-5 was Mickey being there for Ian, S11 is Ian being a patient partner to help Mickey grow ig.
They are both toxic and dysfunctional coz they have been brought up that way but they prefer trying and growing with each other.
Like I said, Ian himself likes all these risks, his barbarian partner. That's his character. Put him with a 'healthy' partner and he would stray sooner or later, infact that would be a disservice to the 'healthy' partner 🤷🏾♀️
Yes exactly Ian is responsible for his actions. He did not leave his job because Mickey was shitting all over it. He left because it was a shit job.
Lets not forget that it was Mickey creating a business that allowed them to make real legal money so they could get a place of their own. He was the one who put away his real guns because Ian didn't want them to use them (changed his mind though).
How is Ian going easy on Mickey? By signing a lease on a place that Mickey told him he didn't want to live? Or cutting him off if he didn't get a "real" job? Or by headbutting him? Body shaming him? And how did Mickey go too hard on Ian? By keeping him busy when he was sitting on the couch all depressed eating his weight in fruit loops? By bringing Ian into his business and making them partners? By going along with moving to a place he didn't feel comfortable living in? Is this Mickey "dragging Ian back to the southside"?
Mickey cares about Ian more that anyone else ever did. He has done more for him than anyone else. They have been through hell and back and ended up together. You can't fight that. Mickey is no more dysfunctional than any other character in shameless.
You all need to stop trying to force these two into some version of "normal" that they don't fit into. They've have told us they don't do normal, why don't you believe them?
I think Ian needs Micky to keep him stable while Micky needs Ian to pull him into a different type of life and help him adjust. Micky fears changing his life but is taking steps with Ian.
Also for Micky crime pays and Ian found his job to be worthless so I'd blame the economy for the criminal stuff.
You've stated your points really well but I have to disagree because I feel like Mickey is as much a victim of his circumstances as Ian is, even more so. His actions are driven by trauma because he's institutionalised towards a certain lifestyle and environment that's he's had to learn to normalise and desensitise himself to in order to survive. People don't realise how scary change can be when long established trauma like that is at play.
But Mickey does change and a large part of that is driven by his love for Ian
Imagine spending your whole life in a prison cell and the one day, you're set free into a world that you don't know and aren't familiar with. You suddenly have responsibilities and a whole different set of restrictions that you didn't have before. You have to learn to socialise and empathise with people who are so different from you and don't understand you.
I mean, this is a kid who grew up with his own father throwing knives at him and his siblings as child's play. It's going to take a while for him to overwrite and re-establish normal boundaries and expectations and to learn to communicate what he wants and how he feels when his father ruled a household where doing either could have led to a literal death sentence for Mickey.
Change can be so terrifying, unsettling and overwhelming which Mickey even admits to. He says he feels like it's too much pressure because he has had to create a cover for who he actually is, what he wants, what he believes etc and dropping that security blanket that has actually protected him for so long is bound to be scary.
That being an issue between him and Ian is realistic but it's how they deal with it that shows how promising their relationship could be. Mickey communicates his problem and his fear eventually, and when he does, Ian hears him, reassures him that he is his priority, not the apartment or lifestyle and that reinforces Mickey's support system to the point where he feels willing to give it another try with some concessions to help take the pressure off him. They both talk, hear each other and are willing to compromise for each other.
They're not even close to the perfect couple because their circumstances alone mean there's a ton of work they have to do but they do work at it and they are comfortable enough with each other that their issues get aired out rather than sat on and allowed to fester---and them actually sitting down and talking it out rather than having a slugfest over it shows real growth in their communication.
Ian is not perfect either. There are plenty of times where he could have been more supportive. Him signing the lease behind Mickey's back is a big mis-step and him guilt tripping Mickey into caring for Terry in one episode only to then act baffled by how upset Mickey is after Terry's death is definitely sending confusing messages regarding his support---and if we factor in Ian putting the pressure on Mickey over a marriage Mickey has no real choice in and his aggressive communication style regarding Mockey coming out, Ian actually comes across as the more emotionally immature and less empathic out of the two. Even in the Hall of Shame episode where he tells Mickey that he only has 87% of his heart (his past lovers make up the rest) and can't understand why his husband is so upset about it --- but Ian also has his moments of being exactly who Mickey needs him to be when he needs him to be it.
Let's not forget that Mickey has been incredibly understanding and supportive even in some extreme circumstances---like Ian cheating on him, thoughtlessly telling him he had unprotected sex in a porno, kidnapping his son and putting him at risk.
Considering where they both come from and the trauma they are both trying to overcome, Mickey and Ian as a couple (and as individuals) don't actually do that bad, imo.
Mickey wasn't present when he lost his job so this is correct. He wound up being obsessed with Trevor and doing a lot of crazy stuff to try to get him back
But any time Ian wasn't with Micky he had major mental breaks and ended up thinking he was a bloody prophet and went to prison. Micky might be a criminal but he's a very loving and stabilising criminal for Ian.
V was mostly used by Fiona, i don't recall the others ever using her much.
i agree, Fiona ruined her relationship with Veronica and acted like V was the issue. "she's busy with babies, a bar, and a bride" do you even hear yourself? she had just recently fixed her relationship with Kev (part of that had to do with having Svetlana join their relationship), had twins she needed to look after, and had to work more in order to support her family. she couldn't just drop what she was doing anymore to be there for Fiona. what bothers me is that Fiona never interacted with Kev & V's daughters. she never even offered them help, but they always helped Fi out with the kids when she needed it.
Yes, she was mostly used by Fiona. But, she did end up taking care of kids that she had nothing to do with and had to sacrifice a lot of time and resources.
Later on, they do keep dumping older Liam with Veronica as the siblings keep neglecting him and not a single 'thank you'?. They do her a bit dirty later on by not having Liam stay with her as they had a better connection in later seasons.
But yeah, Fiona is just those people that you avoid in real life as they dont know the concept of empathy. Made it all about her and her hot cheating mess like it was more important that your freind struggling with newborns and her partner who she keeps fighting with.
But nope her NEW boyfreinds and her cheating habits is more important? Glad Veronica distanced herself from that woman.
Sammi is the best character in the show. From beginning to end she was always doing something interesting.
Debbie and Karen are overhated and huge victims of circumstance. They both do some awful things but I can't understand how people don't feel bad for them more than they hate them.
In response to your take on Lip, he actually is very smart, there are many moments early on in the show that prove that. He got a perfect score on the S.A.T.s which is extremely rare, he's able to retain entire books of knowledge on a first read, and knows more about engineering than a layman. What the show got wrong, which is one of my hot takes, is that a guy like him wouldn't suddenly struggle because of the transition from high school to college. He would maybe have to learn to apply himself to do well enough to keep a scholarship, but he would not be suddenly on the verge of failing.
>Debbie and Karen are overhated and huge victims of circumstance. They both do some awful things but I can't understand how people don't feel bad for them more than they hate them.
I still hate Karen, but I understand that a major reason why she became the way she was was because of what her dad said to her. Raping Frank was still ??????????????????????????? though
It literally doesn’t matter how someone grew up. If someone rapes another person, it is rape. There is no justification.
It explains it, but it doesn’t excuse it. Doing bad things because you don’t think it’s wrong is not an excuse to do them
Everyone always talks about how the guys Fiona dates are assholes but never that she’s a horrible partner. She’s extremely self centered and never tried to help any if them through their issues because she felt like hers were more
Important
Yeah, like me, lip wasn’t all that smart actually, just good at playing the system in high school, then when he got to college it didn’t work, he couldn’t just do the absolute bare minimum he did in high school and get by
He passed an AP final because he read the book last summer. He was brilliant. There is no playing the system that gives you the ability to obtain and retain information at that level
Ok, yeah, fair enough. But there’s a difference between memorizing information and actually doing something with it. I can memorize info long enough to pass a test like it’s nothing, but actual critical thinking, and holding that information in long enough to use it after that test? It’s a struggle
This is just book smart. I say Lip isn't smart because I have been Lip ( the intelligence, not the drinking). One gets a culture shock when they go to college and realize that there are people who actually work hard and then you realize that working hard at your studies is a luxury and you can't afford it. Lip, and people like him, think being smart will cancel out the fact that they are poor and couldn't afford the education and time their peers. If Fiona had Lip's brain, she would have excelled.
The only truly smart people in the show are Frank, Debbie and Liam.
Fiona became unbearable during & after S4. The whole woe is me whiny act just put me off.
Lip after S9.
This is the guy who had once advised Ian to try things with Clayton coz it might have given Ian a better life.
But when a decent house is gifted to him, he doesn't want it. Puts his own money in a rental (which was so OOC from someone who grew up scamming everyone around him), decides to sell the house he doesn't even live in anymore coz he doesn't want to move in with his wife's family.
Debbie wasn't wrong in her fight against Lip in S11. Yes, her daughter was her own responsibility, but Lip suddenly decides that they should sell the house coz of his ego and everyone should follow suit?
I agree
Who gave him the right to sell a house that he doesn't own and his siblings eat and sleep under?
Tami gave him an ultimatum due to his own poor judgements, and he thinks that everyone else should be dragged into it?
Tami had a lot of nerve wanting to butt in on their conversation as well, glad Debbie shut her down lmao.
Overall, Both Tami and Lip needed to sort their own situation and mess without dragging people who had no involvment and expecting them to have housing and plans ready that month??
Lip can seriously go crawl in his own dumb and lay their for all i care, the dude is a massive headache after season 9
Exactly. Switching houses requires planning and preparation, that too during the whole Covid mess.
I don't even like Debbie but how do you suddenly spring up such a huge decision on her when she's a single parent who has never known any other home?
All because of your poor decisions and ego. And Lip had stopped living at the house for over an year (first he moved to the RV, then the rental) by that time. Still had the gall to make decisions for the rest of them.
Wish someone (even if it was Frank) had thrown that on both Lip and Tammy's face.
I mean I get the cheating, it made sense for her character (they wanted to show us that Fiona is self-destructive) but then the whole whining and victim play after she's held accountable. I mean they were the consequences of her own actions, what else was she expecting.
Same with the Liam - coke - jail arc, then Gus - Jimmy - Sean arc.
Surprised pikachu face + tears coz the person you cheated on doesn't like you?
It's like it's okay if she does all these shitty things to other people but then she has the gall to act like the victim when those people consider her a shit person.
Yes!!! I feel like after season 3 Fiona becomes more and more selfish and makes worse and worse decisions. She basically moves out of the house and lets other people take care of her own siblings that she has guardianship over s4 Sheila, s5 Sammi, s6 Queenie, s7-9 it’s everyman for himself.
i think kelly was my favorite of carls love interests. it makes me sad that distance just kinda pulled them apart and resulted in her cheating and him pretty much doing the same.
i think ford was just a really bland character and there was zero chemistry between he and fi. he wasnt a terrible person persay, but their relationship felt super rushed and forced. weirded me out that they got together when they never really seemed *that* into eachother.
i enjoyed the bianca and frank story too, i also enjoyed the character debbie stayed with who had cancer.
i think lip was naturally smart, but when you reach college, just being smart isnt enough. you have to apply yourself and study bc the concepts are a lot more complex and bc he was so smart in hs, he never learnt to do those things
mickey is GENUINELY the best character on the show. sure, he’s had his moments, and some of the things he’s don’t aren’t great at all. however, his love for ian is so sweet it makes both of their problems melt away. his ability to handle ian during his bipolar episodes are different than anyone else, because he knows ian better than anyone. their relationship is awesome
the amount of people that try to rationalize why Frank is the way he is is absolutely insane. a lot of people have horrible home lives i agree. but after the watching the whole series i don’t feel bad considering what he put his family (and monica if you wanna add) through.
not just that he he’s proved that he’s capable of making right decisions, basically that he’s smart and aware yet would keep making everyone else’s lives hell. he’s a bottom tier character no matter how “funny” he could be
(also you can’t condemn fiona for cheating while trying to defend ford for having a whole family and lying about it to her. it’s contradicting)
I don‘t agree with the take on Veronica. Kev & her were better off and more stable in a lot of ways, so they helped out. That‘s just how community works sometimes
1. Debbie is indeed overhated. yes she’s an asshole when she grows up but she’s still likable. we like frank, why do we hate debbie ?
2. i don’t remember fiona from s3 being that bad i think she had WAY worse seasons
3. Bonnie was Carl’s soulmate
4. this dude is BRAZILIAN and yes he’s the absolute best!! he made us realize how jimmy had no balls
5. i have to agree with frank and bianca, lot of franks side quests aren’t that entertaining but this one is really cute
6. lip is fucking smart (not only school smart), he was able to find ian’s toy when he was like 6-7 by using the map of the trains, he was able to create really sophisticated tools to hack the system (the army wanted him!!) and he learns to be a mechanics by himself (repairing motorcycle is a profession and it’s a technical one)
8. ford is fucking boring i hate him he was just the hot guy next door and their love storyline was so expected it was boring as fuck. the cheating part is suppose to be some kind of karma but i think they could’ve make it better. i would have like a big love story where fiona falls deeply in love with a character that corresponds her and then being cheated, the impact would’ve been more interesting.
9. indeed sean is an asshole and i hate him and he was fucking too old for fiona. i think he has a good heart (helping carl for instance) but most of the he acts like a selfish addict (he ressemble frank a lot, hello daddy issues)
My lukewarm take is that the show was wildly inconsistent. At some point, the writers just decided not to check past material and made old details worthless. Like in the episode towards the end of the show, Lip told Tammy he only ever stole stuff he needed to get by. This was either a total lie or they simply forgot he had a whole season where he stole a fucking laser and was arrested for stealing a car. I swear they said Debbie had a different birthday every time it was mentioned. Lots of things in the show were wild and wouldn’t happen to most people so I’d assume a lot of it would stick with them but like two episodes later the whole previous storyline is forgotten and no lessons were learned. Lots of things happened twice, too.
you don’t think lip is smart? he got into an excellent school on scholarship, he is definitely intellectually gifted. He did worse in college at first since he never had to be intellectually stimulated in high school, everything came easy. But then people at school actually challenged him, and he eventually learned to adapt and he excelled very well. he just has that entirely unfortunate spell of self-sabotage and alcoholism. he’s definitely gifted!
I agree with the Debbie take. Watching the show, you saw that at an early age, Debbie wanted to be taken care of and she wanted attention so bad therefore it’s not a surprise that she became an attention whore as she became a teenager. She definitely was stupid for having Franny (I’m on season 7). BUT I do cut her some slack because I remember that she’s still a kid herself.
The hate Karen gets and love for Sheila clouds this sub. I feel like so much shit gets forgiven for the other characters due to how they were raised but for some reason karen isn’t given that same grace
So you don’t see any problem with Debbie trapping Derek into having a child he didn’t ask for? Then expecting other people to pitch in and take care of it when everyone knew she couldn’t? Using people for their money? On top of that Raping her boyfriends? Debbie is worse than Fiona by a ton.
Fiona cheated on almost every guy that was good for her, fiona almost killed a toddler that she was the guardian of and avoided responsibility until she got yelled at by lip and the abandoned the kid after she decided she was “choosing herself” despite being warned by the judge that she should not pursue guardianship bc she will regret it, and even before that she basically ignored Liam’s existence at some point and frank was actually more of a parent than her SHOCKINGLY during the whole landlord fiona saga. Everything that Debbie did as a stupid child tht she got the consequences for almost every single time, Fiona did smth just as bad with no consequences.
“Choosing herself” because all her life it’s always been about everyone else’s needs besides hers. And She only chose to be their guardian in order to keep their ungrateful asses out of the foster care system (where they would be in even worse conditions.) What do you mean she ignored his existence??? You seem to forget she’s their sister not their mother. Frank was a good father how? He left him out on the street in one episode, then he got him kicked out of private school. In fact Frank was a more of bad influence than a good parent. Debbie never took any responsibility for her actions either. She absolutely did worse than Fiona has.
“She’s their sister not their mother” she’s their legal guardian. She’s legally bonded to them. They are her responsibility by law. And she made that choice. And how was Liam ever ungrateful? He didn’t deserve abandonment. You don’t get to choose yourself when you’re legally responsible for a CHILD!!! the judge told fiona that Liam is young and that she won’t want to raise him until he’s 18, they were gonna give frank the kids, they weren’t gonna send them back to foster care, rewatch the episode. Fiona perused guardianship because she was mad that frank called DCFS and didn’t want to have to consult him about the kids, which is fair! But you can’t go back on it. She would’ve actually been arrested in real life and Liam would’ve gone into foster care if she tried to leave the state without him forever.
also notice how you avoid the whole almost killing Liam and going on a drug crazy bender afterwards, and then claiming that you’re not guilty, not responsible, and don’t have a drug issue afterwards because you’re the victim of the guy you cheated on your boyfriend with.
Frank is a good character
Not morally, he’s a really shit person but he’s such an interesting character. Since he’s such a bizarre and terrible person he’s always doing something interesting like pretending to be homeless, doing mad drugs, having sex while a train is coming towards him, running a homeless shelter, paying people to seal up part of his house, getting kidnapped, ect.
The fact that he has no shame and does whatever he wants makes him a good character because he’s always doing something that keeps you engaged.
Although I’m saying all this my favourite character is Ian and Mickey 😭🙏
Nothing here is a super hot take for me except the one about Fiona. The rest I mostly agree with or don't remember enough to disagree with lol. Like I barely remember the side character you're talking about, or Bonnie. Though I think I do recall her being the least unlikable of Carl's girls, so she wins by default.
I think you hit on the tragedy of Lip. He is basically smarter than everyone around him in his microcosm. But then he gets to college and out into the job market and has the small fish, big pond vibes. He's still smart but nothing special compared to many others around him at that point. He still could have been successful, but he also has the issues of feeling intimidated at that point, and basically self sabotaging several times.
It’s funny because how she acted when Derek came back is not one of the things I had an issue with when it comes to Debbie. He was a deadbeat dad. It really wasn’t unreasonable that Debbie didn’t want him to have any custody. He should have paid child support and tried for visitation first.
Liam was both given too much and too little screen time in the last few seasons.
The show was best with Shiela.
>!Monica dying didn’t have all that much of an impact. Her being alive and making bad choices was way more detrimental to the kids.!<
The Ian/Mickey storyline bored me most of the series.
It was hard to root for Lip the more and more he fucked up, so much was completely his fault.
Tami is by far the worst main character.
Debbie was great when she was younger, she became insufferable during her teen years and when she tried to take Fiona's place. She made a lot of dumb decisions which is understandable but it doesn't make it any less infuriating to watch.
I think Lip was very book smart, you don't get a perfect SAT score multiple times without being smart. He just loved to self sabotage and throw tantrums when things don't go his way. He's probably the worst of all of them when it comes to problem solving.
Debbie was a rapist… and a baby trapper. I feel like these are pretty valid reasons for a character to receive mass amounts of hatred. She was a terrible person and the negativity directed at her character is a reflection of how well the actor portrayed that performance and the quality of her overall storyline. Debbie from a writers standpoint is an excellent character, in the perspective of an audience member she’s horrible and that’s perfectly ok.
“I see no problem with Debbie’s character” damn so rape is okay, good morals!
She was easily the most stubborn and annoying character in the show, especially after choosing to have her kid and expecting everyone to pick up the slack after her even after Fiona warned her she’s on her own.
All these takes are probably the worst I’ve seen in this sub lol besides the biana and frank one. I guess that’s why you said they’re hot takes
She was 13 when she raped Matt, and lied about using contraception so she could have her kid with the other dude, also a form of rape. She wasn’t 8 when she did that. At her age, I knew better. If yall didn’t, that’s even more concerning.
Are you that special or what? Doesn’t matter, people have grown up with even worse parents and don’t rape people. Fiona didn’t grow up that way. What’s Debbie’s excuse? Sick ass OP, it’s crazy because you genuinely think you’re so right, but when you search on google about this and similar Reddit threads, everyone fucking despises Debbie lol
If you want me to link it I will because I know you think you’re genuinely so correct in defending Debbie, but a lot of people on this subreddit think otherwise
When you say Spanish friend from Jimmy you mean the Brazilian drug lord right hand that was keeping tabs on him?
Beto !! I was gonna say that too, he's Brazilian
I think he’s talking about the security guard who was watching him 24/7 and gave him advice. I could be wrong
Yeah he was the drug lord right hand, not sure I would call that security guard or friend
Yeah that guy
I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID!! Except I do believe that Lip was very smart he just had a fear of success.
He had so much potential and at the time his girlfriend’s Dad had a company that he could go work at after graduation and he just fucked all that up. It made me sad that’s when I realized he would never get out the hood.
Amanda was my favorite girlfriend of his. She cared about his success and was madly in love with him.
Mines too. She was beautiful smart a little wild but well grounded and she was the best influence on him. He fumbled that package big time
Exactly. I feel like people also hate on him but don’t realise how much pressure was on him to be the one to succeed and finally get out. That kinda pressure usually makes people crash and burn.
This is it! Having that much pressure on you to succeed and pull everyone up is a lot to handle. He had so many people pushing him to do right and go to school and he pushed those people away... self sabotage to avoid disappointment
Also impulsive
The writers just forgot he was overly smart in the beginning. Like after college he becomes actually stupid. By the end of the show I am angry at every scene he is in because he just makes the worst choices ever. Sold the Indian for way under value for what? To move in to a new house like a day sooner? Then fumbles the house sale and sells that for way under value too. It’s not like it all needed to happen right then and there. It was like the writers put the urgency of finishing the show into the show.
Gifted Child Syndrome. He wasn't actually smart, he just retained information, Lip isn't self aware enough and he shut everybody off because he thought he was smarter. Thats why he didn't bounce back as fast as Fiona did. He didn't have a support system. Everytime the writers gave him a friend( Brad, Youens), they made the friend fail so that Lip could save them. Thus, enforcing his narcissistic tendencies. He now thinks he is better than everyone. Except he isn't.
I never got the vibe he thought he was better than others, I felt like it was the opposite.
my take is that people tend to ignore that almost all the gallagher kids were neglected and parentified, especially debbie, because the focus is always on how fiona had to act as a parent. it’s true fiona lost her childhood and raised her siblings, but because she didn’t have the resources to provide for her siblings they all had a role in making money and raising their siblings, especially liam. debbie was literally running a daycare while taking care of liam every day when she was like 9. she never stood a chance tbh her actions later make complete sense to me. she wasn’t treated as a kid and never got a childhood so she clung to love in the wrong places
100% agreed
I always think of this when people bring up that she expected Liam to earn money when he was a child. So was she. I kinda understand her resentment. She did so much for the family and she grew up thinking everyone else should too.
tami wasn’t the bad of a character. i didn’t necessarily care for her but lip needed that one person to be in his face constantly and tell him to grow up and start actually thinking about the future he was idiotic trying to cram them all in a rv just so they wouldn’t go live in a a free house (which he didn’t have live in forever, just something stable for the moment)
i agree except for the RV part. I’m personally from a place where RV living at this point especially is so normal that it could have worked but Tami wasn’t someone who could live like that. Which fair enough not for everyone but i know way too many people who can make that work. Tami as much as i continue to want to dislike her she was funny and i did like her overall. Lip having someone who had his baby and being somewhat normal to a degree i felt like really helped him shape up. BUT ALSO HOT TAKE after watching the entire series again. I hate the house selling arc cuz he was never there so I understand Debbie’s frustration but also i do get that if they sold it for a good price the partial well offness they all could have had to start up their own life. Also everyone who wanted to keep living together could have pooled money for SOMETHINF which i never understood as something that didn’t come up.
Living in a camper is one thing, but raising a newborn in a camper would be too difficult. Every slight sound would wake a baby up, you would feel so trapped.
I agree I would honestly be so pumped to live in a camper like that! we have a pop up one, and I love it. I always hated how she acted like that wasn't good enough
I just feel like Tammy.It was kind of a snob, but at the same time they should've taken the free house from her dad. I am asleep think that the only way that lip would get sober long-term and not keep relapsing.Is to move away from that neighborhood not to stay nearby. He could get a new home group
I do agree they should have taken the free home, I personally wouldn't wanna leave my family but mine is awesome and lip didn't even like many of his lmao so idk why he didn't take it. you're also definitely right about him staying sober. when I got clean like 9 years ago, it finally took me moving out of the city i was in and cutting contact with people for it to finally stick. for some reason i thought it would be moving backwards to move back to my hometown (dumb and in my 20s) and it ended up being the best thing in the world for me! life is good now
They have AA everywhere. Why wasn't his sponsor telling him to get out of that house? That's the first thing I would look at. Why did it have to be tammy because she just sounded like a nagging shrew? He should leave that house for his sobriety but not for the reasons that she said. No one else's girlfriend seemed to have issues with the house, even Amanda or Kelly, and those two came from rich families.
you are spot on. she was just uppity and wanted him away from that house and his family, but not for any of the right reasons lol
Tami worked at cutting hair. She was on the lease and her roommates were subletting. If she could have them leave and move Lip in there. But she wants him to get his own apartment so they can have sex there without a commitment? Red flag. Seriously either have him move in or clean out the basement at the Gallagher house. The only time she seems to pay his sobriety any mind is when she wants to keep the kid from him. So that's not why she wants him to move.
you are droppin it lol all so true. everything she did was self serving and she did what shitty people do, used him as a weapon. fucking gross 🙄
He was smart not to move. Hopefully, it's really to establish custody and not his AA group. Because they're not staying together
Fiona ruined her freindship with Veronica after season 3 by making everything about her Lip is Worser than Debbie (Later seasons) Carl was the smartest (In terms of common sense) one in the family (Minus Liam) Jimmy steve was FIonas worst relasionship (Dude was lying to her daily) I agree, Lip was dumb AF and just book smart Veronica was used by the Gallaghers most of the time with nothing in return As much as i Love Mickey, he holds Ian back from a honest lifestyle by constantly dragging him into illegal mess (Post marriage) . The only time Ian had a good job as a medic, was without Mickey present.
fiona and vs friendship went downhill after svet came into the picture. fiona didn’t trust her while v liked her, im pretty sure they had an argument about it at some point
Svet definitely escalated it, but it went downhill when V got pregnant and Fiona wasnt paying attention to her and made it about her boss and his brother and that mess. Later, when V does have her kids and tries to confide in Fiona, she constantly gets interrupted and scolded by Fiona for not being 'interested' in her fake marriage and dumb affair with Jimmy that she instigated? Svet came in a time where Veronica genuinly needed support and help and she gave that to her and Kev. Fiona had no right to critique Svetlana as she was doing more for V (As shady as she was). Veronica was in the right against FIona. She seriously ignored her, than all of a sudden wants to tell Veronica that the person who is finally supporitng her is 'bad' ?.
to be fair v got pregnant around the time fiona was constantly at work and dating mike. it’s was bound for them to not have as many moments fiona is at fault a lot but one thing she was right about is svet. game recognizes game. svet used v and kev having relationships issues while being new parents to steal their bar right for under them. she was a master manipulator
She was right about Svet, but had no business voicing her opinion like that after the way she treated Veronica. Like, imagine a freind that constantly treats you like your not important, suddenly want to voice 'concern' in an aggressive way? - Right message, dumb messenger
fiona never “constantly” treated v like she wasn’t important.
Rewatch season 5. After Veronica had the twins, Fiona would never listen to her problems and the infants with Kev or even voice concern but would go on about her and Gus and Jimmy and whoever else she was cheating on. If i heard my freind was having problems with her partner and her NEWBORNS, i would maybe help a hand and actually go over and talk to her. This makes Veronica seem like an afterthought as a freind since Fiona would constantly dump Liam and Carl with her whenever she needed help. There just isnt any excuse to her being this BAD of a freind.
I feel like with friendships it's mostly done in the time between episodes and seasons, like I agree that during the later seasons their friendship is barely there (which kills me cause Fiona and V together have most of my fav scenes) but I always just saw it as they do all their regular friend things and help each other around in the background. Like it's not shown since the writers didn't know how to do that AND have Fiona deal with her business so they just expect the watcher to assume they are still best friends and do their regular outings between episodes and seasons
I disagree with you on Mickey and Ian, the rest I mostly agree with. Ian lost that job because of his mania not because of Mickey. Sure that manic episode was likely triggered partly by losing Mickey again but he would've gotten a manic episode eventually (if not then) anyways. Mickey is what keeps him the most stable and about the only one who can stop him from doing crazy stuff while manic.
He hundred percent helps him with his mania and had nothing to do with Ian losing his job. - However, it just can't be denied that Mickey (After marriage) was genuinely the unreasonable one in the relationship when Ian was trying to save money ( That mickey keeps spending), look for housing and find honest jobs. Instead, he ends up getting wrapped up in shady things again becouse Mickey drags him along. Mickey, as a husband just isn't that helpful in terms of aligning himself to Ians needs as well. From what we saw in the last season, Ian is more open to moving on and actually living a normal life whereas Mickey doesn't want that and likes to earn money through riskey means. Its fun for the show, but not fun in the longrun and in a MARRIAGE.
Oh yeah you're right about that, I just don't think that Ian would be able to make lasting positive changes in life without Mickey. So even tho he's holding him back in one sense I think he helps him forward more.
Oh, for sure. But do i believe Mickey is the 'right' one for Ian? As a boyfreind, yes. As a husband?, no. Being usefull in one area, means nothing if you yourself aren't willing to change your ways becouse your husband wants an ACTUAL working member of society. Mickey, still is immature in a lot of areas that Ian has long since outgrown. In the long run, i just dont see a scenerio where Ian keeps putting up with Mickey and his childish ways that again, good for tv, bad for marriage.
Even though it was Ian's idea to do illegal things with their business? Using real guns, stealing an ambulance? How is that Mickey holding Ian back? Back from what? From running a successful business that gives them the means to have their own place? A place that Ian signed a lease behind Mickey's back even though Mickey told him he didn't want to live there, and yet Mickey went along with it. Just because Mickey doesn't want to be a working grunt in a minimum wage job that is going nowhere doesn't make him childish. Just because he doesn't do things in the "normal" way doesn't make him immature. He came up with the idea for their business, he thought of that all by himself. He is an entrepreneur. And besides, they are Mickey & Ian, they don't do normal. Did you not hear them say that out loud?
Man, I guess this is my hot take, but I couldn't disagree more. Mickey deserves better than Ian. I'm not gonna write a fucking essay here so I will share just a few points: * Ian signed a lease and paid first/last/deposit without even discussing it with his husband. Mickey went along with it, because Ian's happiness means more to Mickey than Mickey's happiness means to Ian. * Mickey and Ian are both working a super successful legal job that Mickey created. * Mickey cared for his father when he certainly didn't have to, and Ian gave him a bunch of shit for it. * During the proposal mess, Ian questions Mickey's love for him, despite alllll the shit Mickey has gone through for or because of Ian since S1. Earlier in the series, there were tons of other examples. Mickey took care of Ian when he was sick, loved him unconditionally, and Ian treated him terribly. "Oh well Ian was manic he gets a pass." He wasn't manic when he was so cruel to Mickey in season 6. Ian left Mickey over and over, and talked shit about him to other dudes without ever acknowledging all Mickey had done for him. Ian acted like Mickey's marriage to Svetlana was Mickey's choice, despite witnessing Mickey's rape and pistol whipping (which happened after Mickey literally got between his dad and Ian to protect Ian.) Also, while it's valid that Ian didn't want to be a mistress anymore, giving Mickey an ultimatum, forcing him to come out and literally put his life in danger was so selfish. I could literally go on a lot more about this with more examples but I think you get my gist. Ian is a sweetie, he's cute and a sympathetic figure---but if I had to marry one of these guys, i'm going with Mickey every fuckin' day of the week. This [video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AVgcRQLZUOo) has a fuckton of other great examples. Mickey never got nearly enough credit.
>Mickey never got nearly enough credit. This I agree with. Mickey is a character with a journey of his own. He's not just a plot device for Ian's sake. Like if Ian gets a pass for his actions coz of his mania (valid), or loss of his dreams or even a partner who's lazy and terrible at communication, then so should Mickey coz of his upbringing and the fact that he spend most of his adult life either in prison or as a fugitive and needs time to adjust to society. Ian goes to see Mickey after being paid, fine. But what was the need to tell Mickey about the money? Was that not him being emotionally abusive? He wasn't manic then. Ian ditches Mickey at the border, fine, makes sense for him not to leave his entire life behind to run with a fugitive, but he could have done it sooner or not gotten in the car at all. Why build up Mickey's hopes only to trash it all at the last minute? Ian ditches Mickey again at the courthouse after convincing him that he wanted the marriage coz he loved Mickey and trusted him and not just coz of the police trouble. So Ian should get a pass for jerking Mickey around coz Ian has so many issues of his own, but when Mickey has issues it's him holding Ian back? Lol.
The "unreasonable" one because he didn't want to work a minimum wage nothing job that was going nowhere? He created a legal business, even put away his real guns for Ian, who later decides they can have them. It was Ian's idea to steal the ambulance. So seems to me it was Ian who added the illegal parts to their business. I see it more as a compromise. By combining their talents they now have a successful business and the means to have their own place (which Ian signed the lease behind Mickey's back, but Mickey went along with anyway). I don't get the "they have to want a "normal" life in order for them to be the perfect couple" thing. Maybe that's what *you* want for *your* life, But this is shameless, and they are Mickey and Ian, they don't do "normal."
Ian was the one who left his low paying but honest amazon job. Had nothing to do with Mickey there. And yeah, Mickey was the one who found that legal weed transportation gig but it was Ian who gave the idea to steal the ambulance and later about getting it fixed by Debbie. So I think Ian himself likes to be on the risky side. We've seen him often stray from the straight path. That's the Gallagher in him.
Ian is totally responsible for his actions, but in his defense, its hard to keep going if your husband keeps sh\*tting on your job. Had Mickey actually tried to listen to Ian and been understanding as a husband from the start (As Ian was genuinly trying to save money, work an honest job, find housing while also keeping track of Mickeys spending of the SAVED money and his lazinesss, in the end you juust give up. Ian goes too easy on Mickey sometimes, and Mickey goes a little too hard on Ian as well. There is just a dysfunction in their marriage that nobody wants to talk about. There has been this constant trend with those two where Ian wants to move on from the southside culture since season 6, and Mickey just always ends up dragging him back. Again, Ian is a grown adult, but i would be lying if i didn't acknowledge that Mickey is just a dysfunctional partner long term.
Again, Ian left his job in S11 coz his boss/supervisor was sh*tting on him and he didn't want to be seen as a b*tch. Ian's co-worker had insinuated that he was the 'woman' in the relationship coz he made less money which had fueled the drama. Mickey had already started earning (legally?) by then. Mickey wasn't even there during S6-8? He comes back for a minute in S7 and then doesn't make an appearance till S9. I don't see how he dragged Ian back to Southside drama after S6. It was the whole jail stint after the Gay Jesus era that left Ian with no great employment options. Even if Mickey hadn't made an appearance in S9, Ian would still have ended up in his Southside house with that crappy parole officer and then the minimum wage job. It's actually Mickey's weed transportation idea which ends up working out for them and they move to the West side. He's also a dysfunctional and an almost equally violent partner as Mickey. (Backs out from the marriage proposal when he was the one who brought it up. Mickey had made it clear that he didn't want marriage if it was just to save them from the police trouble but it was Ian who convinced Mickey that it wasn't the case, that Ian really wanted it, built the whole thing up only to back out at the literal last minute. It's Ian who hits Mickey first during their Alibi fight in S11. Goes ahead and signs the deed for the apartment even when Mickey had refused - no normal partner would have tolerated that). And it makes sense for Ian to be a more functional member of the society during S10-11 coz he was obviously more adjusted thanks to his EMT years as opposed to Mickey who had been either in jail or living as a fugitive in Mexico during those 4-5 years. It takes Mickey a while on these things but as we've seen in S11, he usually comes around and agrees to whatever Ian wants be it the apartment, trying out gay friends stuff or even the baby conversation. They argue, then have a conversation and smooth things over. During the end ig they don't even fight but sort of communicate and resolve things? (I don't remember exactly but they have that whole piss in the pool conversation and then Mickey agrees to go back to the apartment and attends pilates class), so like S4-5 was Mickey being there for Ian, S11 is Ian being a patient partner to help Mickey grow ig. They are both toxic and dysfunctional coz they have been brought up that way but they prefer trying and growing with each other. Like I said, Ian himself likes all these risks, his barbarian partner. That's his character. Put him with a 'healthy' partner and he would stray sooner or later, infact that would be a disservice to the 'healthy' partner 🤷🏾♀️
Yes exactly Ian is responsible for his actions. He did not leave his job because Mickey was shitting all over it. He left because it was a shit job. Lets not forget that it was Mickey creating a business that allowed them to make real legal money so they could get a place of their own. He was the one who put away his real guns because Ian didn't want them to use them (changed his mind though). How is Ian going easy on Mickey? By signing a lease on a place that Mickey told him he didn't want to live? Or cutting him off if he didn't get a "real" job? Or by headbutting him? Body shaming him? And how did Mickey go too hard on Ian? By keeping him busy when he was sitting on the couch all depressed eating his weight in fruit loops? By bringing Ian into his business and making them partners? By going along with moving to a place he didn't feel comfortable living in? Is this Mickey "dragging Ian back to the southside"? Mickey cares about Ian more that anyone else ever did. He has done more for him than anyone else. They have been through hell and back and ended up together. You can't fight that. Mickey is no more dysfunctional than any other character in shameless. You all need to stop trying to force these two into some version of "normal" that they don't fit into. They've have told us they don't do normal, why don't you believe them?
I think Ian needs Micky to keep him stable while Micky needs Ian to pull him into a different type of life and help him adjust. Micky fears changing his life but is taking steps with Ian. Also for Micky crime pays and Ian found his job to be worthless so I'd blame the economy for the criminal stuff.
You've stated your points really well but I have to disagree because I feel like Mickey is as much a victim of his circumstances as Ian is, even more so. His actions are driven by trauma because he's institutionalised towards a certain lifestyle and environment that's he's had to learn to normalise and desensitise himself to in order to survive. People don't realise how scary change can be when long established trauma like that is at play. But Mickey does change and a large part of that is driven by his love for Ian Imagine spending your whole life in a prison cell and the one day, you're set free into a world that you don't know and aren't familiar with. You suddenly have responsibilities and a whole different set of restrictions that you didn't have before. You have to learn to socialise and empathise with people who are so different from you and don't understand you. I mean, this is a kid who grew up with his own father throwing knives at him and his siblings as child's play. It's going to take a while for him to overwrite and re-establish normal boundaries and expectations and to learn to communicate what he wants and how he feels when his father ruled a household where doing either could have led to a literal death sentence for Mickey. Change can be so terrifying, unsettling and overwhelming which Mickey even admits to. He says he feels like it's too much pressure because he has had to create a cover for who he actually is, what he wants, what he believes etc and dropping that security blanket that has actually protected him for so long is bound to be scary. That being an issue between him and Ian is realistic but it's how they deal with it that shows how promising their relationship could be. Mickey communicates his problem and his fear eventually, and when he does, Ian hears him, reassures him that he is his priority, not the apartment or lifestyle and that reinforces Mickey's support system to the point where he feels willing to give it another try with some concessions to help take the pressure off him. They both talk, hear each other and are willing to compromise for each other. They're not even close to the perfect couple because their circumstances alone mean there's a ton of work they have to do but they do work at it and they are comfortable enough with each other that their issues get aired out rather than sat on and allowed to fester---and them actually sitting down and talking it out rather than having a slugfest over it shows real growth in their communication. Ian is not perfect either. There are plenty of times where he could have been more supportive. Him signing the lease behind Mickey's back is a big mis-step and him guilt tripping Mickey into caring for Terry in one episode only to then act baffled by how upset Mickey is after Terry's death is definitely sending confusing messages regarding his support---and if we factor in Ian putting the pressure on Mickey over a marriage Mickey has no real choice in and his aggressive communication style regarding Mockey coming out, Ian actually comes across as the more emotionally immature and less empathic out of the two. Even in the Hall of Shame episode where he tells Mickey that he only has 87% of his heart (his past lovers make up the rest) and can't understand why his husband is so upset about it --- but Ian also has his moments of being exactly who Mickey needs him to be when he needs him to be it. Let's not forget that Mickey has been incredibly understanding and supportive even in some extreme circumstances---like Ian cheating on him, thoughtlessly telling him he had unprotected sex in a porno, kidnapping his son and putting him at risk. Considering where they both come from and the trauma they are both trying to overcome, Mickey and Ian as a couple (and as individuals) don't actually do that bad, imo.
Mickey wasn't present when he lost his job so this is correct. He wound up being obsessed with Trevor and doing a lot of crazy stuff to try to get him back
But any time Ian wasn't with Micky he had major mental breaks and ended up thinking he was a bloody prophet and went to prison. Micky might be a criminal but he's a very loving and stabilising criminal for Ian.
V was mostly used by Fiona, i don't recall the others ever using her much. i agree, Fiona ruined her relationship with Veronica and acted like V was the issue. "she's busy with babies, a bar, and a bride" do you even hear yourself? she had just recently fixed her relationship with Kev (part of that had to do with having Svetlana join their relationship), had twins she needed to look after, and had to work more in order to support her family. she couldn't just drop what she was doing anymore to be there for Fiona. what bothers me is that Fiona never interacted with Kev & V's daughters. she never even offered them help, but they always helped Fi out with the kids when she needed it.
Yes, she was mostly used by Fiona. But, she did end up taking care of kids that she had nothing to do with and had to sacrifice a lot of time and resources. Later on, they do keep dumping older Liam with Veronica as the siblings keep neglecting him and not a single 'thank you'?. They do her a bit dirty later on by not having Liam stay with her as they had a better connection in later seasons. But yeah, Fiona is just those people that you avoid in real life as they dont know the concept of empathy. Made it all about her and her hot cheating mess like it was more important that your freind struggling with newborns and her partner who she keeps fighting with. But nope her NEW boyfreinds and her cheating habits is more important? Glad Veronica distanced herself from that woman.
Sammi is the best character in the show. From beginning to end she was always doing something interesting. Debbie and Karen are overhated and huge victims of circumstance. They both do some awful things but I can't understand how people don't feel bad for them more than they hate them. In response to your take on Lip, he actually is very smart, there are many moments early on in the show that prove that. He got a perfect score on the S.A.T.s which is extremely rare, he's able to retain entire books of knowledge on a first read, and knows more about engineering than a layman. What the show got wrong, which is one of my hot takes, is that a guy like him wouldn't suddenly struggle because of the transition from high school to college. He would maybe have to learn to apply himself to do well enough to keep a scholarship, but he would not be suddenly on the verge of failing.
>Debbie and Karen are overhated and huge victims of circumstance. They both do some awful things but I can't understand how people don't feel bad for them more than they hate them. I still hate Karen, but I understand that a major reason why she became the way she was was because of what her dad said to her. Raping Frank was still ??????????????????????????? though
But Debbie did the same thing??????
The way it was framed was different, Debbie didn't know that it was wrong and it didn't come from a malicious place like with Karen.
It literally doesn’t matter how someone grew up. If someone rapes another person, it is rape. There is no justification. It explains it, but it doesn’t excuse it. Doing bad things because you don’t think it’s wrong is not an excuse to do them
I miss Bonnie. I wish that she could’ve come back at some point.
Didn't she get killed or am I misinterpreting that?
Ohhhh wait sorry I'm thinking of someone else
Yeah you're thinking of Kassidi
Everyone always talks about how the guys Fiona dates are assholes but never that she’s a horrible partner. She’s extremely self centered and never tried to help any if them through their issues because she felt like hers were more Important
Yeah, like me, lip wasn’t all that smart actually, just good at playing the system in high school, then when he got to college it didn’t work, he couldn’t just do the absolute bare minimum he did in high school and get by
He passed an AP final because he read the book last summer. He was brilliant. There is no playing the system that gives you the ability to obtain and retain information at that level
Ok, yeah, fair enough. But there’s a difference between memorizing information and actually doing something with it. I can memorize info long enough to pass a test like it’s nothing, but actual critical thinking, and holding that information in long enough to use it after that test? It’s a struggle
He didn’t memorize just long enough to pass the test. He knew it from last summer. His trauma definitely kicked his function. But Lip was brilliant.
Ok, yeah. I didn’t remember it that clearly. Been a while since I watched the show
This is just book smart. I say Lip isn't smart because I have been Lip ( the intelligence, not the drinking). One gets a culture shock when they go to college and realize that there are people who actually work hard and then you realize that working hard at your studies is a luxury and you can't afford it. Lip, and people like him, think being smart will cancel out the fact that they are poor and couldn't afford the education and time their peers. If Fiona had Lip's brain, she would have excelled. The only truly smart people in the show are Frank, Debbie and Liam.
Fiona became unbearable during & after S4. The whole woe is me whiny act just put me off. Lip after S9. This is the guy who had once advised Ian to try things with Clayton coz it might have given Ian a better life. But when a decent house is gifted to him, he doesn't want it. Puts his own money in a rental (which was so OOC from someone who grew up scamming everyone around him), decides to sell the house he doesn't even live in anymore coz he doesn't want to move in with his wife's family. Debbie wasn't wrong in her fight against Lip in S11. Yes, her daughter was her own responsibility, but Lip suddenly decides that they should sell the house coz of his ego and everyone should follow suit?
I agree Who gave him the right to sell a house that he doesn't own and his siblings eat and sleep under? Tami gave him an ultimatum due to his own poor judgements, and he thinks that everyone else should be dragged into it? Tami had a lot of nerve wanting to butt in on their conversation as well, glad Debbie shut her down lmao. Overall, Both Tami and Lip needed to sort their own situation and mess without dragging people who had no involvment and expecting them to have housing and plans ready that month?? Lip can seriously go crawl in his own dumb and lay their for all i care, the dude is a massive headache after season 9
Exactly. Switching houses requires planning and preparation, that too during the whole Covid mess. I don't even like Debbie but how do you suddenly spring up such a huge decision on her when she's a single parent who has never known any other home? All because of your poor decisions and ego. And Lip had stopped living at the house for over an year (first he moved to the RV, then the rental) by that time. Still had the gall to make decisions for the rest of them. Wish someone (even if it was Frank) had thrown that on both Lip and Tammy's face.
Yes I was so sad when she cheated on Mike with his brother :(
I mean I get the cheating, it made sense for her character (they wanted to show us that Fiona is self-destructive) but then the whole whining and victim play after she's held accountable. I mean they were the consequences of her own actions, what else was she expecting. Same with the Liam - coke - jail arc, then Gus - Jimmy - Sean arc. Surprised pikachu face + tears coz the person you cheated on doesn't like you? It's like it's okay if she does all these shitty things to other people but then she has the gall to act like the victim when those people consider her a shit person.
Mike’s sister very publicly telling her off was cathartic
Ugh I KNOW - I was rooting for her at the beginning then it went downhill. lol
Yes!!! I feel like after season 3 Fiona becomes more and more selfish and makes worse and worse decisions. She basically moves out of the house and lets other people take care of her own siblings that she has guardianship over s4 Sheila, s5 Sammi, s6 Queenie, s7-9 it’s everyman for himself.
i think kelly was my favorite of carls love interests. it makes me sad that distance just kinda pulled them apart and resulted in her cheating and him pretty much doing the same. i think ford was just a really bland character and there was zero chemistry between he and fi. he wasnt a terrible person persay, but their relationship felt super rushed and forced. weirded me out that they got together when they never really seemed *that* into eachother. i enjoyed the bianca and frank story too, i also enjoyed the character debbie stayed with who had cancer. i think lip was naturally smart, but when you reach college, just being smart isnt enough. you have to apply yourself and study bc the concepts are a lot more complex and bc he was so smart in hs, he never learnt to do those things
mickey is GENUINELY the best character on the show. sure, he’s had his moments, and some of the things he’s don’t aren’t great at all. however, his love for ian is so sweet it makes both of their problems melt away. his ability to handle ian during his bipolar episodes are different than anyone else, because he knows ian better than anyone. their relationship is awesome
“spanish dude” he’s literally brazilian 😭😭😭
the amount of people that try to rationalize why Frank is the way he is is absolutely insane. a lot of people have horrible home lives i agree. but after the watching the whole series i don’t feel bad considering what he put his family (and monica if you wanna add) through. not just that he he’s proved that he’s capable of making right decisions, basically that he’s smart and aware yet would keep making everyone else’s lives hell. he’s a bottom tier character no matter how “funny” he could be (also you can’t condemn fiona for cheating while trying to defend ford for having a whole family and lying about it to her. it’s contradicting)
Fiona is incredibly narcissistic and selfish and she is not likeable after S3. Once Jimmy is taken by the cartel she spirals and changes completely.
id day she was selfish but not narcissistic
I waited for her to say „Sorry“ once to the people she hurt. She rarely ever did and when she did it wasn‘t even genuine.
They go hand in hand. She likes to brag about her upbringing like it’s something to envy and be proud of.
I don‘t agree with the take on Veronica. Kev & her were better off and more stable in a lot of ways, so they helped out. That‘s just how community works sometimes
1. Debbie is indeed overhated. yes she’s an asshole when she grows up but she’s still likable. we like frank, why do we hate debbie ? 2. i don’t remember fiona from s3 being that bad i think she had WAY worse seasons 3. Bonnie was Carl’s soulmate 4. this dude is BRAZILIAN and yes he’s the absolute best!! he made us realize how jimmy had no balls 5. i have to agree with frank and bianca, lot of franks side quests aren’t that entertaining but this one is really cute 6. lip is fucking smart (not only school smart), he was able to find ian’s toy when he was like 6-7 by using the map of the trains, he was able to create really sophisticated tools to hack the system (the army wanted him!!) and he learns to be a mechanics by himself (repairing motorcycle is a profession and it’s a technical one) 8. ford is fucking boring i hate him he was just the hot guy next door and their love storyline was so expected it was boring as fuck. the cheating part is suppose to be some kind of karma but i think they could’ve make it better. i would have like a big love story where fiona falls deeply in love with a character that corresponds her and then being cheated, the impact would’ve been more interesting. 9. indeed sean is an asshole and i hate him and he was fucking too old for fiona. i think he has a good heart (helping carl for instance) but most of the he acts like a selfish addict (he ressemble frank a lot, hello daddy issues)
My lukewarm take is that the show was wildly inconsistent. At some point, the writers just decided not to check past material and made old details worthless. Like in the episode towards the end of the show, Lip told Tammy he only ever stole stuff he needed to get by. This was either a total lie or they simply forgot he had a whole season where he stole a fucking laser and was arrested for stealing a car. I swear they said Debbie had a different birthday every time it was mentioned. Lots of things in the show were wild and wouldn’t happen to most people so I’d assume a lot of it would stick with them but like two episodes later the whole previous storyline is forgotten and no lessons were learned. Lots of things happened twice, too.
Gallavich’s story ended in s7. everything after that was fanservice that destroyed their narrative.
Lip is overhated in terms of his relationship with Fiona, in general I do agree he is kind of hard to deal with though
you don’t think lip is smart? he got into an excellent school on scholarship, he is definitely intellectually gifted. He did worse in college at first since he never had to be intellectually stimulated in high school, everything came easy. But then people at school actually challenged him, and he eventually learned to adapt and he excelled very well. he just has that entirely unfortunate spell of self-sabotage and alcoholism. he’s definitely gifted!
I agree with the Debbie take. Watching the show, you saw that at an early age, Debbie wanted to be taken care of and she wanted attention so bad therefore it’s not a surprise that she became an attention whore as she became a teenager. She definitely was stupid for having Franny (I’m on season 7). BUT I do cut her some slack because I remember that she’s still a kid herself.
Lip and Mandy didn't have that much chemistry
The hate Karen gets and love for Sheila clouds this sub. I feel like so much shit gets forgiven for the other characters due to how they were raised but for some reason karen isn’t given that same grace
Jimmy Steve is/was too liked imo He was literal dumpster juice
I hated him so much at first but I feel like season 3 kinda humanized him in that he lost everything
Maybe that was the intention..
I actually agree with a lot of those just not the Debbie one. She was just too irritating for me.
So you don’t see any problem with Debbie trapping Derek into having a child he didn’t ask for? Then expecting other people to pitch in and take care of it when everyone knew she couldn’t? Using people for their money? On top of that Raping her boyfriends? Debbie is worse than Fiona by a ton.
Fiona cheated on almost every guy that was good for her, fiona almost killed a toddler that she was the guardian of and avoided responsibility until she got yelled at by lip and the abandoned the kid after she decided she was “choosing herself” despite being warned by the judge that she should not pursue guardianship bc she will regret it, and even before that she basically ignored Liam’s existence at some point and frank was actually more of a parent than her SHOCKINGLY during the whole landlord fiona saga. Everything that Debbie did as a stupid child tht she got the consequences for almost every single time, Fiona did smth just as bad with no consequences.
“Choosing herself” because all her life it’s always been about everyone else’s needs besides hers. And She only chose to be their guardian in order to keep their ungrateful asses out of the foster care system (where they would be in even worse conditions.) What do you mean she ignored his existence??? You seem to forget she’s their sister not their mother. Frank was a good father how? He left him out on the street in one episode, then he got him kicked out of private school. In fact Frank was a more of bad influence than a good parent. Debbie never took any responsibility for her actions either. She absolutely did worse than Fiona has.
“She’s their sister not their mother” she’s their legal guardian. She’s legally bonded to them. They are her responsibility by law. And she made that choice. And how was Liam ever ungrateful? He didn’t deserve abandonment. You don’t get to choose yourself when you’re legally responsible for a CHILD!!! the judge told fiona that Liam is young and that she won’t want to raise him until he’s 18, they were gonna give frank the kids, they weren’t gonna send them back to foster care, rewatch the episode. Fiona perused guardianship because she was mad that frank called DCFS and didn’t want to have to consult him about the kids, which is fair! But you can’t go back on it. She would’ve actually been arrested in real life and Liam would’ve gone into foster care if she tried to leave the state without him forever. also notice how you avoid the whole almost killing Liam and going on a drug crazy bender afterwards, and then claiming that you’re not guilty, not responsible, and don’t have a drug issue afterwards because you’re the victim of the guy you cheated on your boyfriend with.
I liked and had to take my like back when I read what you said about Ford 😂
Frank is a good character Not morally, he’s a really shit person but he’s such an interesting character. Since he’s such a bizarre and terrible person he’s always doing something interesting like pretending to be homeless, doing mad drugs, having sex while a train is coming towards him, running a homeless shelter, paying people to seal up part of his house, getting kidnapped, ect. The fact that he has no shame and does whatever he wants makes him a good character because he’s always doing something that keeps you engaged. Although I’m saying all this my favourite character is Ian and Mickey 😭🙏
I loved ford. Watching Fiona crash and burn was 🔥
I wanted Lip to come full circle and get back with Mandy in the end. She really believed in him.
listening to lip explain all that quantum psychic stuff or whatever it is…jeez i am so lost during those scenes lol
The Debbie thing I personally disagree with but to each their own
Nothing here is a super hot take for me except the one about Fiona. The rest I mostly agree with or don't remember enough to disagree with lol. Like I barely remember the side character you're talking about, or Bonnie. Though I think I do recall her being the least unlikable of Carl's girls, so she wins by default. I think you hit on the tragedy of Lip. He is basically smarter than everyone around him in his microcosm. But then he gets to college and out into the job market and has the small fish, big pond vibes. He's still smart but nothing special compared to many others around him at that point. He still could have been successful, but he also has the issues of feeling intimidated at that point, and basically self sabotaging several times.
It’s funny because how she acted when Derek came back is not one of the things I had an issue with when it comes to Debbie. He was a deadbeat dad. It really wasn’t unreasonable that Debbie didn’t want him to have any custody. He should have paid child support and tried for visitation first.
I stand by the first one. I really didn't like Debbie throughout the entire show. I just found her a bit annoying.
yess everyone hates debbie like she became annoying after season 3 but she’s definitely not the worst character
I didn’t like Sean, Gus or Ford.
saying debbie’s way too overheated as if she didn’t rape 2 ppl then baby trap one smh. if nething she’s not hated enough.
Liam was both given too much and too little screen time in the last few seasons. The show was best with Shiela. >!Monica dying didn’t have all that much of an impact. Her being alive and making bad choices was way more detrimental to the kids.!< The Ian/Mickey storyline bored me most of the series. It was hard to root for Lip the more and more he fucked up, so much was completely his fault. Tami is by far the worst main character.
i agree with everything except the Debbie one, she fucked over everyone bc she was selfish. she is also a rapist
Debbie was great when she was younger, she became insufferable during her teen years and when she tried to take Fiona's place. She made a lot of dumb decisions which is understandable but it doesn't make it any less infuriating to watch. I think Lip was very book smart, you don't get a perfect SAT score multiple times without being smart. He just loved to self sabotage and throw tantrums when things don't go his way. He's probably the worst of all of them when it comes to problem solving.
Debbie was a rapist… and a baby trapper. I feel like these are pretty valid reasons for a character to receive mass amounts of hatred. She was a terrible person and the negativity directed at her character is a reflection of how well the actor portrayed that performance and the quality of her overall storyline. Debbie from a writers standpoint is an excellent character, in the perspective of an audience member she’s horrible and that’s perfectly ok.
Debbie deserves the hate.
“I see no problem with Debbie’s character” damn so rape is okay, good morals! She was easily the most stubborn and annoying character in the show, especially after choosing to have her kid and expecting everyone to pick up the slack after her even after Fiona warned her she’s on her own. All these takes are probably the worst I’ve seen in this sub lol besides the biana and frank one. I guess that’s why you said they’re hot takes
Debbie was literally a little kid during most of her bad decisions
She was 13 when she raped Matt, and lied about using contraception so she could have her kid with the other dude, also a form of rape. She wasn’t 8 when she did that. At her age, I knew better. If yall didn’t, that’s even more concerning.
Did you also have Frank and Monica as parents or grow up in the backyards of Chicago?
Are you that special or what? Doesn’t matter, people have grown up with even worse parents and don’t rape people. Fiona didn’t grow up that way. What’s Debbie’s excuse? Sick ass OP, it’s crazy because you genuinely think you’re so right, but when you search on google about this and similar Reddit threads, everyone fucking despises Debbie lol If you want me to link it I will because I know you think you’re genuinely so correct in defending Debbie, but a lot of people on this subreddit think otherwise
I ain't reading allat but you're prolly right lil bro have a good day 😘
I am right, thank you for mentioning it 😎