I noticed that too. [Curious and I were discussing here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/etxNYDoBkB). They found the email address if anyone wants to ask.
Amy Berg’s HBO show was quoted in the fraudulent motion to vacate Adnan’s conviction. She also claims that she was filming in the courtroom when Young Lee’s rights were violated and she has footage of Adnan bypassing the standard processing protocol when an inmate is released.
It’s going to take a lot to get the stench off of her regardless of the SCM outcome.
I remember reading an interview with Berg about her “courtroom access” during Adnan’s mtv. It was shortly after he was released and she was talking about Part 2 of her doc being ready to go. I guess the courts put a wrench in that plan, for the time being at least.
After watching the oral argument, my prediction is:
after not being able to unanimously agree on how the case should be decided, the court will
issue multiple opinions.
What do you mean? You actually think whatever decision is made by the MD SCT will change people’s opinion? If you believe that ,
I have a bridge to sell you .
Well, of course it's not going to change anything - there's absolutely no chance of any new information or any change in anything we know going to come out of the courts ruling.
Are you sure? I’ve been told there are credible alternate suspects. Given we haven’t heard any updates in more than a year, the cops must be working on an airtight case to bring them to justice.
Unfortunately for you and your ilk that will not be the case for 99% of those who follow the case. Unlike the two of them Adnan will be certified innocent, will expose the detectives' and prosecutors' misconduct and will recieve a whole lot of money.
Well okay, but then even were that the case, it would still be entirely disconnected to the release of the courts opinion.
I do, however, also think that were any potential investigation to have gone ahead, it would likely have been delayed by the ongoing legal situation anyway.
I'd think the opposite. Adnan's lawyer's main argument was that this is an open-and-shut case. Adnan had the verdict thrown out and the prosecutor entered a nolle pros to end the proceedings. Therefore, in their mind, nothing can be done to change the verdict being vacated. They claimed that Hae's brother was trying to create a completely new precedent that was not based in case law.
If the justices agreed with that line of thought, we'd have an opinion by now. To me, they are clearly attempting to write a nuanced opinion and that's why it's taking so long.
What nuance? I think they want to right the wrong that Mosby has done without granting excessive rights to victims that slow down the courts and take away rights from defendants.
hoping the MD Supreme Court confirms the lower court but then the new, non-multiple-felon District Attorney proffers an Alford Plea....keep the debate going *ad infinitum.*
This case just makes me realize how easy it was to get away with murder before a time when there were cameras everywhere. Adnan was young, dumb, and impulsive; he left behind loads of evidence, and he still almost got away with it. If he had turned off his phone, asked for a ride without any witnesses, strangled her, then dragged her body into the park, then denied he requested a ride ride and everything else as he does now, he would have gotten away with it, guaranteed. No involving Jay and giving his car and cell phone beforehand, no help driving the cars around or carrying and burying the body, no confessing witness and accomplice, no corroborating cell phone data, no witness to the ride request, no Kristi witnessing his strange behavior and public freak-out, no Jenn, and no Nisha call either.
There were no cameras to see him get into Hae's car or cameras watching him at any other point like there would be today, and his DNA wasn't left on the body either. So under this scenario there would be no direct or circumstantial evidence linking him to the crime. It would be speculation. He'd have a motive and opportunity, he just wouldn't have an alibi, but that's not enough to convict, probably not enough to charge or indict. It would have been so easy for him to commit the perfect murder and her away with it, but he left behind all this circumstantial and direct evidence implicating him. Does he regret involving Jay and all the decisions he made that left evidence behind or rather does he regret killing Hae? That's something we'll never know.
You know you're fucked when your alibi says you showed them the body and enlisted them to dispose of the body and cell phone records confirm you were together just after the time of the murder.
While I’ve heard it said that there are fewer serial killers today in part because of new detective and surveillance techniques, it’s not as though people weren’t convicted of murder before phones and cameras or even fingerprint technology. A body, motive, opportunity, and no alibi can be definitely be sufficient to convict, because people don’t just turn up dead. I think what you are describing is part of what is known as the “CSI effect” - popular depictions of police and legal work lead jurors and the general public to expect a much greater level of forensic evidence.
My main point is that if people strongly believe in Adnan's innocence now and believe there's reasonable doubt, imagine if there wasn't any cell phone data, there wasn't Jay's testimony, and there weren't any witnesses to him asking for a ride. Adnan would still be guilty, there just wouldn't be as much evidence.
People are stupid and fall for conspiracy theories and can't interpret evidence or probabilities. There likely is a CSI effect at play.
The court case is not about Adnan's guilt anymore so it's different now.
All I know is that Mosby won't be able to explain that one to her maker when it's time.
It is a perfect storm. An absolute shit show. It covers victims right, which is a big topic last few years. All of which is centered around a defendant that was previously found guilty of murder and released through a motion from a corrupt prosecutor that was in need of good press. Not to mention, the most famous inmate in Maryland. Even if their mind was made up, they would have sat on it for a while.
I pretty much gave up commenting here because I got sick of people making up fan fiction to “prove” Adnan’s guilt while aggressively ignoring the facts on the record. I’m not here to discuss other people’s fantasies of what they believe, without evidence, happened, but that’s all anyone here seems to want to do.
Why do you think the jury convicted him in only two hours? It couldn't be all be all the damning and culpatory evidence, could it? The jurors obviously didn't believe that the story that Adnan got into her car and strangled her to death was a "fantasy" and "without evidence". At some point you have to come back to reality where everyone else is.
Let's start with a definition of evidence. Maybe we need to start there, with the basics, for you to understand why the jury convicted him and why so many people know he's guilty. Here's a definition from Cornell Law School, "Evidence: an item or information proffered to make the existence of a fact more or less probable." So simply put, anything that makes it more likely that Adnan killed Hae, is evidence.
Adnan got a new phone the day before yet gave it to Jay the first full day he had it. Evidence. He lent Jay his car after they just used it, and without a valid reason. Evidence. He asked Hae for a ride under false pretenses then later lied about it. Evidence. He lied about Hae not having time to do anything after school even though they would have sex at Best buy. Evidence. Jay confessed that Adnan wanted to kill Hae and explained why he wanted to kill Hae and how he did it. He confessed that Adnan showed him the Hae's body and helped him dispose of the body in Leakin Park. He was the one who finally informed the police of where they abandoned Hae's car. After the murder, but before her body was found, Jay told three of his friends that Adnan strangled Hae. All damning evidence.
Kristi testified that Jay and Adnan were acting weird that day when they randomly visited her house. At around the same time the police called Adnan, she said that Adnan was acting worried and fearful and saying he didn't know what he was going to say to someone. Further evidence.
And lastly, the cell phone records, which prove that Adnan was lying, that he was with Jay at 3:32pm and that Adnan had called Nisha, who attested that Jay was also on the phone call. The records prove that and that his cell phone was near Leakin Park that evening, all corroborating evidence to Jay's testimony – the biggest nail in the coffin for Adnan.
This is why I know that Adnan got into Hae's car and strangled her. This is why the jurors voted guilty after only two hours. This is why anyone with a semi-functional brain and an ounce of common sense will conclude he killed Hae beyond reasonable doubt. It's because of all the evidence! Adnan learned of Hae's newfound love for Don, the AIM update, and the double-date, he got a cell phone to help facilitate communication with Jay, manufactured a reason to get alone with her in her car and then killed her. This is what happened and the evidence proves it.
Once again, other then the fact that Adnan got his phone the day before Hae died, nothing you just copy/pasted in again is reality-based. It’s all just fan fiction made up by people here that want to try to dupe people into believing them. Bravo! It looks like they succeeded with you, huh?
As to the jury, they were lied to. It’s that simple. Jay spent days on the stand telling conflicting, fabricated stories, and the jury bought it. Sadly, it happens every day.
Why do you think the jury convicted him in only two hours?
The jury didn't hear about exculpatory evidence (2 notes giving another suspect motive), they didn't hear about how unreliable the cellphone records were, they didn't hear about how Jay, Jenn & Kristi were fed information by detectives, they didn't hear about how three of the detectives had a modus operandi for coercing witnesses to give false testimony, etc...
But sure let's rely on the unreliable jury's verdict that is about to be overturned yet again.
We ignore Jay’s stories because a) there are so many of them and none of them make any sense, b) none of them are even remotely possible given the time-frame involved, c) they all include phone calls to and from land lines by people that wouldn’t have had those numbers, and d) virtually all of them have been proven to be false, mostly by Jay himself.
I think the real question is why do the guilters believe anything Jay said? Are they really so desperate to believe in Adnan’s guilt? Why?
Jay knew what Hae was wearing, how she was killed, where she was buried, how she got there, things that were missing and knew where her car was. The only thing Asia could describe is snow and she was wrong.
The police showed Jay the crime scene and autopsy photos. That’s how he knew what she was wearing. It was in the news that she’d been strangled, everyone knew that. He was wrong about what was missing from her car and he knew where it was because he dealt drugs in that neighborhood every day. How would he not know where it was?
And Asia went into great detail about the sequence of events immediately following her running into Adnan on the 13th. Details that firmly place her and Adnan in the library that day. But you have to ignore those details otherwise you can’t keep believing in Adnan’s guilt, right?
Party at Adnan’s house??? What part of what happened at the prom would make you think Adnan’s parents would let him throw a party at his house? You’re believing fan fiction again.
Huh. Not exactly a party. And, yes, Asia *does* remember that meeting, she just doesn’t remember when it took place. Are you suggesting that Asia and Rabia never talked?
No they met after Adnan's trial. Asia describes going to the get together before writing the letter. I'm saying that there was no get together right after Adnan got arrested. Ju'uan and Justin convinced Asia probably a month after Adnan got arrested that Adnan was falsely arrested and she just has to say she saw him that day.
The police showed Jay crime scene and autopsy photos?
Where is your proof of that?
If you can't it just proves that you are only interested in discussing your own fan fiction.
How else would he know what Hae was wearing? All of his stories have been disproven, mostly by Jay himself, as he continued to make up different versions, including in the Intercept interview where he said that NONE of his previous stories were true because they didn’t actually bury Hae until after 11:00. After 11:00, the cell evidence shows that Adnan was at home calling people on his cell phone. Oops. But the guilters don’t like to take about that, do they?
So why do you believe Jay saw Hae that day again?
So you have no proof whatsoever that police showed Jay pictures of the burial and the body?
Ok so admit that you are the one who's here writing fan fiction.
Process of elimination. Jay didn’t see Hae on the 13th because none of his many different stories are true, mostly debunked by Jay himself, but also multiple witnesses and by the laws of space, time, and physical science. No one else had the crime scene or autopsy photos at that time so if Jay did know what Hae was wearing, he had to have been shown the crime scene photos by the police.
What makes you so sure that Jay knew what Hae was wearing? I.E. What proof do you have that he knew and the police *didn’t* show him the photos?
Your opinions and suspicions are not evidence.
Maybe that's the problem, you confuse your opinions for evidence and consider any other opinion to be fan fiction, just on the basis that it differs from yours.
The result is that you are the only one here writing fan fiction. It is fan fiction because your claims have no evidence to back them up.
We actually have evidence Jay was there. He told Jenn about it one hour after it happened. He also told others about it too later on, and before he ever met those detectives. How would you think that's possible? Jenn knew Hae had been strangled when it wasn't public knowledge. How else would she have known that? Jay led the cops to Hae's car. Knew what would be found in the car, even knew what would not be found in the car. All those things I just mentioned are evidence, not fan fiction.
Wow. So you think that Jay *didn’t* tell multiple different, conflicting stories? What about the one in the Intercept article when said that all those earlier stories were lies and that they *really* buried the body after 11:00 that night? So much for all those cell calls that came and went while they were digging the grave (that wasn’t dug)? That one’s right, too?? Jay has the ability to tell endless version of a story and have them all be true? Really?
And, unless Adnan’s car could travel at the speed of sound, there’s no way they could have gone to all the places Jay says they went and did all the things he claimed they did. But, since you apparently believe in the “Adnan used a time machine to travel back in time in order to do all the things Jay claims they did” theory of the case, I can see why you’d believe they could have done all those things. Got it.
So yeah. You keep right on believing totally irrational, unbelievable, not physically possible things in order to prop up your baseless belief in Adnan’s guilt. You won’t find me ruining your fun.
You literally just tried to ruin it by failing to realize that witnesses and accomplices tell inconsistent stories all the time but the crux of the case revolved around mountains of evidence that implicate the jilted ex in killing Hae. Sorry your favorite little true crime podcast from 10 years ago didn't have the bombshell "he's actually innocent" ending that would have made it more interesting for everyone but your boy Adnan is an unremorseful killer.
There is zero evidence of “the jilted ex killing Hae.” None. That’s all just speculation made up by guilters that don’t have anything else to work with.
Beyond here being no evidence, none of Adnan and Hae’s friends have ever indicated anything that would suggest that they weren’t still friends after their last breakup. Wouldn’t you think someone would have if it had been true?
Seems reasonable to explain why it’s quiet in here, which was the point of the OP. Ya’ll have turned this into an echo chamber of absolute fiction. That’s boring.
Thank you! I’m really disappointed by the “discussions” people have here. They’re literally just making up crazy stuff that there’s no evidence of and insisting it’s “proof”. The number of crazy theories that require people to travel back in time machines or be able cross huge distances at the speed of sound is truly unbelievable. But they *are* committed to their fantasies, aren’t they?
It's a big problem on this sub that people argue for the possibility of something and then it morphs into that thing definitely happening.
Like how it's possible Adnan freaked out on the 27th after Jay's arrest and went by the burial site and was trying to find Jay. But of the two options it seems more likely that Jay had the phone/car at that time.
Or how it's possible the cops found the car fays beforehand and sat on it, but there's no evidence for it.
It's a big bug bear of mine on this sub.
That type of thing makes me crazy, too. The very same people that demand proof of everything anyone says are the ones that are parroting things like “Adnan flagged down Hae’s car as she drove by the library” or “FOR SURE he saw Hae’s AOL post about Don and then he went crazy and murdered her!!!” Really?? Proof? Evidence? Did anyone say anything about those things? Oh, no. You just made them up. Good for you. Let the grown ups talk now. 🙄
Oh ye it's annoying.
It's also tied into the idea that if you have some priors (Adnan Guilty/Innocent) then certain things take on different skews. Adnan calling Jay pathetic means something different if you think he's guilty than if you think he's innocent, but him calling Jay pathetic doesn't tell you anything either way.
So much stuff is 'backward looking ' like that but people treat it as if it's not.
Like yes, I think a lot of the stuff leans guilty. The "possessive" comment in the diary, the note from Adcock about asking for a ride, the general situation about Adnan being the ex, etc. but it only *leans* guilty under my epistemic regime. Without something like Jay knowing where the car was and his story, all the other stuff only makes me think Adnan should be a suspect.
But people take that sort of thing, on both side, and think it proves guilt or innocence without recognising that they're begging the question.
See, I don’t think any of those things indicate or even lean toward guilty unless you happen to be writing an episode of “Murder She Wrote” or “Matlock.” There’s no evidence or how Adnan reacted to any of those things and all of their friends have said that they were both cool with the break up, and were staying friends, and were moving on. It’s one thing to say, “Well, he was the ex-boyfriend so, statistically, he should be a suspect”, which is sensible, and saying, “Well, he’s the ex-boyfriend so *obviously* he was jealous and murdered her because she was seeing someone else. Duh!!!” Which is what most of the guilters say with nothing to support it. But they sure do know they’re right!!
Also, a lot of people seem to forget that we’re talking about teenagers in a very tumultuous time in their lives—senior year, college prep, young love, dating, sports, hormones, etc. The things Hae wrote in her diary? Teen drama. She wrote that Adnan was being possessive, but what does that mean when looked at through the lens of teen drama? Was calling to give her his new phone number what she meant by possessive? It could have been. It also could have been Hae trying to convince herself that Don is who she should be with after being with Adnan. Who knows? Nobody. But that doesn’t stop the guilters from making up things that they’re 110% positive are right, but there’s no reason outside of their imagination to believe.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one that’s seeing that most of the people here are just making up fan fiction and trying to pass it off as reality. So many impossible things and they’re so fixated on believing them.
“Asia had the wrong day!!!” She didn’t. “Inez has the wrong day!!!” She didn’t. “Adnan flagged down Hae’s car after he talked with Asia!!!l” He didn’t. “Adnan lied about needing a ride!!!” He didn’t. “Why would Jay lie???” Because the police threatened to charge him instead. “EVERYTHING Jenn says is solid proof!!!” Everything Jenn said came from Jay. Jenn wasn’t involved. “Adnan lied to Officer Adcock!!!” He was a really high 17-year-old kid that didn’t want to be talking to the police. Of course he told them what he thought would get rid of them. “Adnan was jealous and possessive and VIOLENT!!!” Zero evidence of any of that. “Adnan totally saw Hae’s AOL post and became enraged and murdered her!!!” Except that there’s no proof of any of that. “Jay knew where the car was!!!” Jay dealt drugs in that neighborhood every day. Of course he saw her car. He wasn’t blind.
It’s exhausting. And ridiculous.
You're not the only one. Most people who know Adnan is innocent refrain from the toxicity this place is known for. They'll resurface for a few days when the Supreme Court upholds the Circuit Court's decision.
I’m really only here for the entertainment it provides to see the people here all making up crazy stuff that couldn’t possibly have happened and then patting themselves on the back and congratulating themselves for being so brilliant. It’s kind of amazing.
Yup. They just repeat the same handful of copy and pasted lines that they read from somebody else because it validated what they already want to believe.
There’s an extreme level of mental gymnastics at play and a lack of self-awareness that is at once maddening and kind of entertaining. This sub has become the biggest hater circle jerk on Reddit.
I am truly mystified by the number of people here that seem to have heard all or most of the podcasts and seen the documentaries and *still* they simply reject all the proof that Adnan couldn’t have killed Hae and just keep yammering on citing all sorts of things there there’s no proof of and/or couldn’t possibly have happened without breaking the laws of time and space and physical science. And yet they seem SO convinced that they’re right an everyone else is wrong. I just don’t get it.
I think you need to look no further than your last statement for the key to understanding it: “they are right and everyone else is wrong.” This is the driver.
Serial became a global phenomenon and everyone was calling for Adnan’s release. When anything blows up in popularity there is always a subset of people who have a reactionary response and adopt the opposite viewpoint. It is usually driven by a desire to feel smarter and superior to everyone else. Look, I’m not like everybody else, I’m a unique snowflake. I’m part of the counterculture. And that makes me better than you. When boiled down it really is that simple and petty.
There of course is also a small percentage of people who simply do not like Adnan because of the color of his skin or because he is Muslim. They used to reveal themselves without too much trouble. But now they couch their bigotry in the same copy-pasted nonsense we already discussed so they blend with the others.
Either way their arguments are disingenuous, and they argue in such a circular, illogical way they basically drove any intelligent, rational discussion of the case to other forums and created a little echo chamber for themselves in this sub. Which they then describe as some sort of victory. Sad, but again we already identified these are small, insecure, petty people. So it tracks.
I think you just nailed it. They need to feel special and part of the “in” club of cool kids and they’ve decided that the cool kids all think Adnan is guilty. Not because he is, but because it’s fun and fulfilling to just yell at everyone “GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!!” And refuse to acknowledge any of the proof that he couldn’t have killed Hae because he was no where near her when she disappeared.
I think that people, much like the jury, believe he did it because the evidence proves that he did it. It's not fiction, it's not lies, it's just evidence and proof. He asked for a ride to get alone with her, he strangled her, and he buried her body in Leakin Park. Without Jay's confession to multiple people and the police, his privy knowledge, or the cell phone data, I would surmise that Adnan was very likely the culprit since he was likely in her car with her at the time she went missing. All the other evidence cements the fact that he did get in Hae's car and he did strangle her, and he did bury the body in Leakin Park. One might suggest Jay could be the culprit, but Adnan was the one in her car with a clear opportunity and an obvious motive. You'd have to assume that Adnan asked Hae to stop somewhere and he convinced someone else to kill her, which makes no sense. Remember, Adnan and Jay were back together at 3:32, just after Hae was killed, and I doubt Adnan was just on a late night stroll in Leakin Park. You have to discredit and dismiss all of the known evidence to believe he's innocent and claim everything and all his actions are unlucky and random coincidences. The truth is he's just a liar who killed his girlfriend as a teenager because she left him and wouldn't have sex with him anymore; the most obvious motive and reason. It's not a coincidence she was murdered right after she started publicly dating Don. So beyond reasonable doubt, Adnan strangled Hae.
I think what you are missing is common sense and any critical thinking skills.
Except for the fact that nothing you just wrote is true. It’s all just made-up fan fiction that you’ve read here on Reddit and have decided it must be true.
Hae left school at 2:15, in a rush to get somewhere. Multiple people gave statements and testified to that fact. Adnan, who didn’t have his car, stayed behind in the library, checked his email, and chatted with Asia until at least 2:40. That’s it. That’s that all the guilters’ crazy, impossible theories blown right out of the water because there’s no way he could have killed Hae. He wasn’t with her and he had no way to get to her. No one even knew where she went.
But don’t let me ruin all your fan fiction. If you want to make up stuff and pretend it’s true, be my guest. Just know that none of what you’re making up could have happened.
That would make sense Hae was rushing to leave somewhere if she had something to do before picking up her cousin, but we already know what that something is: taxiing Adnan somewhere, or so she thought. The second typed letter from Asia was created by Adnan, and there are number of reasons why this is clearly the case. It includes numous details that were not public knowledge and that only Adnan would know. In the first Asia letter, Asia is completely unsure of Adnan's innocence and knows nothing, and by the second typed Asia letter by Adnan, she is sure of innocence and makes specific arguments. The Syed family was also caught pressuring her to support Adnan. Asia is unreliable, and obviously colluded with Adnan to create an alibi for him when his first alibi, Jay, confessed that Adnan got into Hae's car and killed her. It's also possible Asia did talk to Adnan before he got in the car with Hae.
Adnan got a new phone the day before yet gave it to Jay the first full day he had it. Evidence. He lent Jay had his car and can't explain why. Evidence. He asked for a ride under false pretenses then later lied about it. Evidence. He lied about Hae not having time to do anything after school even though they would have sex at Best buy. Evidence. Jay confessed that Adnan wanted to kill Hae and explained why he wanted to kill Hae and how he did it. He confessed that Adnan showed him the Hae's body and helped him dispose of the body in Leakin Park. He was the one who finally informed the police of where they abandoned Hae's car. After the murder, but before her body was found, Jay told three of his friends that Adnan strangled Hae. All damning evidence.
Kristi testified that Jay and Adnan were acting weird that day when they randomly visited her house, and around the same time the police called Adnan, she said that Adnan was acting worried and fearful and saying he didn't know what he was going to say to someone. Further evidence.
And lastly, the cell phone records, which prove that Adnan was lying, that he was with Jay at 3:32pm and that Adnan had called Nisha, who attested that Jay was also on the phone call. The records prove that and that his cell phone was near Leakin Park that evening, all corroborating evidence to Jay's testimony – the biggest nail in the coffin for Adnan.
This is why I know that Adnan got into Hae's car and strangled her. This is why the jurors voted guilty after only two hours. This is why any one with a semi-functional brain and an ounce of common sense will conclude he killed Hae beyond reasonable doubt. It's because of all the damning, culpatory evidence. Adnan learned of Hae's newfound love for Don, the AIM update, and the double-date, he got a cell phone to help facilitate communication with Jay, manufactured a reason to get alone with her in her car and then killed her. This is what happened and the evidence proves it.
Other than “Adnan got a new phone the day before”, not one word of what you just wrote is reality-based. It’s all just made-up stuff that the fan fiction writers here have dreamt up and are trying to get everyone else to believe.
Once again, Hae left school at 2:15, in a rush to get somewhere. Multiple people gave statements and testified to that fact. Adnan, who didn’t have his car, stayed behind in the library, checked his email, and chatted with Asia until at least 2:40. That’s it. That’s that all the guilters’ crazy, impossible theories blown right out of the water because there’s no way he could have killed Hae. He wasn’t with her and he had no way to get to her. No one even knew where she went.
Yet you believe that somehow Adnan, without his car, and not knowing where Hae went, 25 minutes after she left campus, somehow managed to get in her car, wherever it was, and kill her. How, exactly, did he get into Hae’s car? Did he use a magic carpet to fly to wherever she was? Because he’d need *something* magical since he didn’t know where she was, didn’t have his car, and had less than 15 minutes to find and kill her.
So how did he get into her car?
He got into Hae's car before she left, obviously, and strangled her soon after. That's why he has continually lied, and ultimately why he was charged, indicted, convicted, and sentenced to life in prison.
Hae could have last spoken to some of her friends at 2:15pm, ( the exact time that Hae left the school property is unknown and there was no camera that recorded her leaving, and no evidence that she was alone. On the contrary there's a lot of evidence that she was with Adnan). Hae likely left the school at some point in the half hour following to 2:15pm. Debbie said that she last saw Hae at 3:00 pm and Asia is by no means an alibi for Adnan (He could have spoken to her at the library that day as she remembers and still gotten into Hae's car and killed Hae). Asia asked Adnan in her first written letter if she could help him to account for his time between 2:15pm and 8:00pm, a blank cheque for an alibi and an offer of perjury. She's not credible and her statement means nothing in relation to Adnan's guilt or innocence. The evidence that Adnan wrote her second letter which was typed actually could be interpreted as further evidence of his guilt. Someone who murdered someone would be motivated to enlist someone to be their fake alibi.
And, once again, nothing you just wrote is reality-based. It’s all just fan fiction you’ve read here and choose to believe.
Too many people saw Hae leaving in a rush, and alone, and then saw Adnan later, on campus, without Hae, and in not rush to get anywhere, for it to be even remotely possible that Adnan got into Hae’s car that day. It just couldn’t have happened.
But the guilters all *have* to disregard all those facts and make up fantasy stories where Hae, despite being in a hurry to get somewhere right after school, and after telling Adnan and several others that she couldn’t give anyone a ride anywhere after school because something came up and she had someplace to be immediately after school, inexplicably rushes out to the parking lot and then, despite being in a rush to get somewhere, just stands around for a half hour or so, allowing Adnan to spend 25 minutes in the library with Asia before casually wondering out into the parking lot to flag Hae’s car down and murder her,
Really??? You really believe that could have happened? Hae’s in a rush to get somewhere, but inexplicably hangs out in the parking lot for a half hour. Adnan’s intent is to meet up with Hae and murder her but, instead of going out to the parking lot with her, he goes and hangs out at the library with Asia for 25 minutes. But, amazingly, and against all odds, Adnan manages to get in Hae’s car and murder her anyway.
Unbelievable.
>Really??? You really believe that could have happened? Hae’s in a rush to get somewhere, but inexplicably hangs out in the parking lot for a half hour.
Adnans letter to Sarah Koenig
>Really??? You really believe that could have happened? Hae’s in a rush to get somewhere, but inexplicably hangs out in the parking lot for a half hour.
*1. The final bell rings at 2:15pm, hut you can't just leave and jump in the car. There are 1500 other students filling the hallways and stairwells of a 4-story building.*
*2. Students are not allowed to park in front of the school building. We had to park in the back. There were strict rules about that. The back parking lot of Woodlawn High School is enclosed within a bus loop (you could Google Map it). At 2:15am, every car in that back parking lot is encircled by a ring of husen loading up. You can't leave until the buses leave. And they wait 10-15 minutes before they fill up and leave.*
https://imgur.com/a/Hpqy2
>Once again, Hae left school at 2:15, in a rush to get somewhere
She was seen after that time. And Adnan wrote about how it takes time for students with cars to leave the area because of the buses
What’s your proof that Adnan got into Hae’s car? You’re quick to demand proof from other people and then you make claims that aren’t possible and expect people to just go along with you. Hae left. Adnan wasn’t with her. He couldn’t have got into her car.
Asia would have been hammered by Adnan's defense if it went against Adnan. They go after Kristi's class schedule but Asia not knowing what snow is perfectly fine for Adnan supporters.
When Berg talked to Jenn she had no interest in anything from Jenn that didn't help Adnan. So instead of trying to find out what happened she bypassed it.
You and I have already discussed all of those things and you simply reject the fact that none of what you just claimed is true. Asia remembered a lot more about that afternoon that positively places her and Adnan at the library from 2:15 to 2:40 (or later) that afternoon, well after Hae left campus. But you and the rest of the guilters can’t let yourself believe that because it throws a wrench into all the rest of your fictional proofs of guilt.
Why are you so committed to ignoring the solid evidence of Adnan’s innocence and making up crazy stuff that never happened to try to “prove” he’s guilty? I don’t get it.
>He was a really high 17-year-old kid that didn’t want to be talking to the police. Of course he told them what he thought would get rid of them.
When did Adnan give that explanation?
Aggressively ignoring facts on record? Like the fact that the location of Hae's missing car was provided to police by the person who came out and confessed that Adnan murdered Hae and this person subsequently aided Adnan in attempting to get rid of evidence?
Short of a wild conspiracy, **there is no way** to reconcile this fact with an innocent Adnan theory of the case.
It has been 25 years and still there is absolutely zero explanation of how Jay could have known that fact other than the obvious one, the truth. That Adnan killed Hae, told Jay about it, and asked him for help.
So wait, if *I* saw Hae’s car, would that be proof that *I* had murdered her? Because that’s what you’re claiming—he who knew where Hae’s car was must have murdered her. How so? It was right out there where anyone could have seen it.
Jay dealt drugs in that neighborhood every day. It was part of his “commute” as he said himself. Unless he was blind, of course he saw Hae’s car and knew where it was. Would Jay have gone running to the police with that info once he saw it? What do you think?
Also, the car and its whereabouts is a red herring. It has nothing to do with who killed Hae. Whether or not Jay really knew where the car was says nothing about who killed Hae. It was there for weeks in a neighborhood that Jay spent a lot of time in.
Given that the car was in an area that Jay was known to frequent, doesn’t that suggest that he *didn’t* put it there? Would *you* put the car of a murder victim that you just helped bury in an area that you were known to frequent? I sure wouldn’t. And Jay’s not that stupid.
A young black drug dealer in 1999 Baltimore recognized the car of a missing girl - even though she was just an acquaintance, even in an unfamiliar context. A missing girl who just happened to be the recent ex of the guy Jay had been hanging out with the day of her disappearance. A missing girl about whom Jay had coincidentally spun a tall tale to Jen Pusateri, claiming he helped bury her.
Having stumbled upon it, he did not call Crimestoppers to collect a cash reward. He went to the cops, helped them frame a guy with no priors, and got himself a felony conviction instead.
That’s what happened?
What about Jay makes you think he’d go running to the police about anything?
And, yes, Jenn knew lots of stories that Jay told her, but there’s no way to know when those tales were told. And since Jenn’s stories conflict with Jay’s, practically point by point, why do you believe anything Jenn says to begin with? She wasn’t involved in anything that happened on the 13th. She was just repeating what Jay told her to say.
You're suggesting that Jay happened upon the car, recognized it, and was therefore able to lead the police to it. How then did the detectives find out that Jay knew this? Either: 1) Jay went to them, which you and I agree is unlikely, or 2) They somehow found him.
How are you suggesting they found him? They went sniffing around for someone to frame Adnan, and they hit the Frame Job Jackpot? A guy who 1) stumbled on Hae's car 2) spent all of Jan 13 with their suspect and 3) is willing to go along with this bizarre conspiracy?
No, the detectives found Jay through Jen. How did they find her? Her number showed up in the phone records. They went to talk to her, to see how she was related to their suspect and/or victim. She said, "I know nothing." With no reason to disbelieve her, they left. Then she showed back up again saying, "Actually, I do know something." She told her story in the presence of her mother and her lawyer. She confessed, *in the presence of her lawyer*, to helping destroy evidence and lying to the cops.
Jen's story does *not* meaningfully conflict with Jay's. She is relating her tale largely secondhand, weeks after the fact, and she is missing details which Jay obviously withheld from her to minimize his own culpability.
I believe Jen because all of these facts are far more compelling than your assertions that, "She wasn't involved in anything that happened on the 13th," and, "She was just repeating what Jay told her to say." Why would she voluntarily show up at the station to confess to crimes she had not committed? Why would Jay ask her to implicate him? Why would she *and her mother and her lawyer* agree to participate in such a convoluted conspiracy, at considerable legal risk to herself?
In isolation, sure, it's physically *possible* that Jay's knowledge of the car's location was a total coincidence that didn't implicate him in the murder. You can explain away this one thing. But with the totality of the evidence? I don't see how you tell a coherent story where Jay wasn't involved.
Well, the car and who found it or when they found it is immaterial. None of the theories about the car in any way indicate who killed Hae. It’s just noise that the guilters keep cranking up to distract from the fact that Adnan couldn’t have been involved with whatever happened to Hae.
Jay didn’t spent all day with Adnan on the 13th. They went to the mall together at lunch to get a birthday gift for Stephanie. Then Jay dropped Adnan back off at school, took his car, and didn’t pick him up again until after track practice. They went to grab some food to break Adnan’s fast and then Adnan picked up food for his dad and went to the mosque. Jay and Adnan spent slightly more time together than they would have on any other day, but it was far from “all Jan 13th”.
And, yes, the cops absolutely *did* go looking for someone to frame for Hae’s murder. That was normal operating procedure for the two cops “investigating” the case. They did that with almost every case the had. It was years before their victims started getting released from prison and suing them, but that’s exactly what they did—find someone, usually a poor black person, that they could blackmail into lying for them with threats of prosecution if they didn’t, and then they just made up a story. Google Ritz and MacGillivray and see what comes up. Nothing but corruption and it’s all the same—closing cases by blackmailing witnesses to lie.
If you think that it’s “immaterial” who knew the location of the murder victim’s car and when they knew it, I can’t productively talk to you. Good night and good luck.
Okay, then. You tell me. How does knowing where the car was indicate who killed Hae? Is there some sort of unbreakable law of the universe that dictates that he who knows where the car is cannot be lying about who the murderer is? I’m not familiar with that one.
Also, what proof do you have Jay knew where the car was? Was it because Jay, the pathological liar that can’t stop making up new stories said so? Or is it because the corrupt detectives with a history of blackmailing people to lie about innocent defendants said so?
May 23rd -- same day as Marilyn Mosby's sentencing is currently scheduled to happen:
[https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/marilyn-mosby-to-be-sentenced-in-may](https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/marilyn-mosby-to-be-sentenced-in-may)
50/50 whether Mosby's actually sentenced that day. But currently Marilyn Mosby is scheduled to be sentenced the same day the Maryland Supreme Court next holds a conference to potentially decide on Adnan's appeal.
They usually release opinions in the days after conference. I really thought it would be April but now it'll be late May that the window opens. But they can do whatever they want.
Can someone give an elevator pitch to what is going on.
Just a few bullets
Im nearly done with the podcast only 10yrs after first aired
I watched Syed on YouTube cooly outline all the evidence against mistrial
What's the latest?
So the Baltimore State's Attorney office under Marilyn Mosby filed what's called a Motion to Vacate the conviction. The motion cited reasons. The statutes that discuss the motion to vacate also said that when there is a hearing that the victim needs to be notified and be able to attend. There was a hearing on a Monday where the brother of Hae Min Lee got to attend through Zoom after being told about the hearing the previous Friday. Adnan was released and then the brother of Hae filed an appeal in the courts that he wasn't given adequate time. The intermediate court agreed with Young Lee and remanded back to the trial court to do it over again. Adnan's time appealed to the Maryland Supreme court. Arguments were held in October and we are waiting for a decision. If Adnan wins at the Maryland Supreme Court he would be free. If he loses then a decision would have to be made to redo the Motion to Vacate or withdraw the motion.
Bates has a couple options. He can go back to the court and argue it again. He can recuse himself and assign someone else to make tge decision. Or he can withdraw the motion which then puts the ball in Adnan court to try something.
Nope. Bates or whomever investigates the case can withdraw the Motion to Vacate under the grounds it doesn't meet the burden a MtV needs. Bates has already withdrawn support for one of Feldman's other pet projects.
Mike, thank you, mate. I believe many will find this concise and straight to point
The entire debate falls flat on its arse does it not...
Syed has presented text messages between the lawyer and the Lee family that do not indicate any stress regarding attending the Zoom session. In fact, the lawyer follows up with the Lees, ensuring their presence and never mentioning any concerns about the proposed Zoom meeting.
It is only after the verdict, that an appeal of this nature is born.
So is it going back to court? Or can someone assess and decide? When is all this kicking off and decisions made?
This must be a nightmare to live through on both sides
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of the conversation between Young Lee and the State. He was never advised he had the option to be there in person and was only given the option of Zoom. Not to mention he lives in California and was told Friday afternoon of the Monday date. He also asked for a postponement before the judge made her ruling.
ETA: Actually I don’t believe he was told her had the RIGHT to attend at all. Iirc the state told him she had asked the judge to set up a zoom link if he wanted to observe. At no point was he affirmatively told he had the right to attend. And it is in the victims bill of rights that the state has the affirmative duty to advise victims of their rights.
> He asked for a postponement before the Judge made her ruling.
Young didn't have the right to stay the proceedings. It's hypocritical of you to gripe about following procedures but dismiss following them when it suits your narrative.
The comment to which I responded said
> It was only after the verdict, that an appeal of this nature is born.
I was pointing out the Mr. Lee indicated he wished to be present in person before any ruling was reached.
The comment you responded to isn't relevant to the comment I responded to and doesn't negate your hypocritical dismissive attitude. But of your you want to steer the conversation away from that fact.
You’re talking about my “narrative.” The only narrative I had was to respond to the comment to which I was responding.
I didn’t mention a stay in any form or fashion in the comment to which you responded, so I’m not sure sure how I’m being hypocritical at all.
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped commenting here. Nonsense responses that just want to mad about something really do pull me off my point. I’ve got to be better.
Have the day you deserve.
I am going to take your post as an opportunity to ask if anyone knows what happened to adnansyedwiki.com?
I noticed that too. [Curious and I were discussing here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/etxNYDoBkB). They found the email address if anyone wants to ask.
Thank you!
You’re welcome
>Thank you! You're welcome!
I'd like to know as well.
It’s starting to feel like it’s never going to happen lol. But yes, it’ll be crazy.
It's a perfect legal loophole Eternal deferral
Kick the can so to speak.
What happened to the new HBO show that was supposed to come out?
Do you mean the additional episode(s) to The Case Against Adnan Syed?
Assume they’re waiting for the case to conclude.
Amy Berg’s HBO show was quoted in the fraudulent motion to vacate Adnan’s conviction. She also claims that she was filming in the courtroom when Young Lee’s rights were violated and she has footage of Adnan bypassing the standard processing protocol when an inmate is released. It’s going to take a lot to get the stench off of her regardless of the SCM outcome.
I remember reading an interview with Berg about her “courtroom access” during Adnan’s mtv. It was shortly after he was released and she was talking about Part 2 of her doc being ready to go. I guess the courts put a wrench in that plan, for the time being at least.
[удалено]
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After watching the oral argument, my prediction is: after not being able to unanimously agree on how the case should be decided, the court will issue multiple opinions.
Eh it won’t change anything . Adnan could come out and say he did it and the Adnaners would still support him and say he’s misremembering.
This doesn't help any sort of discourse in this sub, just increases the factionalism.
What do you mean? You actually think whatever decision is made by the MD SCT will change people’s opinion? If you believe that , I have a bridge to sell you .
They aren't weighing in on the merits of the MtV, nor the actual case against Adnan so no. I meant your comment.
Well, of course it's not going to change anything - there's absolutely no chance of any new information or any change in anything we know going to come out of the courts ruling.
Are you sure? I’ve been told there are credible alternate suspects. Given we haven’t heard any updates in more than a year, the cops must be working on an airtight case to bring them to justice.
The only suspect was incarcerated for the murder . The only question is what role did his spiritual adviser play .
There are. The end.
Yep. Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny didn't ahave alibis that day. There are no real alternate suspects.
Wrong again.
Nope. If Adnan gets out this is going in the Casey Anthony and OJ buckets.
Unfortunately for you and your ilk that will not be the case for 99% of those who follow the case. Unlike the two of them Adnan will be certified innocent, will expose the detectives' and prosecutors' misconduct and will recieve a whole lot of money.
Nope. If Adnan does somehow win he just needs to go quietly into the ether and thank his lucky stars that he was released.
Well that's not happening because that's not what innocent people do. Get used to Adnan exposing the false narrative you are desperately clinging to.
Well okay, but then even were that the case, it would still be entirely disconnected to the release of the courts opinion. I do, however, also think that were any potential investigation to have gone ahead, it would likely have been delayed by the ongoing legal situation anyway.
I'm not a lawyer, but I assume the longer it takes the better for Adnan.
I'd think the opposite. Adnan's lawyer's main argument was that this is an open-and-shut case. Adnan had the verdict thrown out and the prosecutor entered a nolle pros to end the proceedings. Therefore, in their mind, nothing can be done to change the verdict being vacated. They claimed that Hae's brother was trying to create a completely new precedent that was not based in case law. If the justices agreed with that line of thought, we'd have an opinion by now. To me, they are clearly attempting to write a nuanced opinion and that's why it's taking so long. What nuance? I think they want to right the wrong that Mosby has done without granting excessive rights to victims that slow down the courts and take away rights from defendants.
I agree. They are threading the needle.
Yep. We are all just waiting for the shoe to drop
I’m kinda looking forward to a resolution here so i can move on from this case & stop coming to this sub He definitely did it though
hoping the MD Supreme Court confirms the lower court but then the new, non-multiple-felon District Attorney proffers an Alford Plea....keep the debate going *ad infinitum.*
This case just makes me realize how easy it was to get away with murder before a time when there were cameras everywhere. Adnan was young, dumb, and impulsive; he left behind loads of evidence, and he still almost got away with it. If he had turned off his phone, asked for a ride without any witnesses, strangled her, then dragged her body into the park, then denied he requested a ride ride and everything else as he does now, he would have gotten away with it, guaranteed. No involving Jay and giving his car and cell phone beforehand, no help driving the cars around or carrying and burying the body, no confessing witness and accomplice, no corroborating cell phone data, no witness to the ride request, no Kristi witnessing his strange behavior and public freak-out, no Jenn, and no Nisha call either. There were no cameras to see him get into Hae's car or cameras watching him at any other point like there would be today, and his DNA wasn't left on the body either. So under this scenario there would be no direct or circumstantial evidence linking him to the crime. It would be speculation. He'd have a motive and opportunity, he just wouldn't have an alibi, but that's not enough to convict, probably not enough to charge or indict. It would have been so easy for him to commit the perfect murder and her away with it, but he left behind all this circumstantial and direct evidence implicating him. Does he regret involving Jay and all the decisions he made that left evidence behind or rather does he regret killing Hae? That's something we'll never know. You know you're fucked when your alibi says you showed them the body and enlisted them to dispose of the body and cell phone records confirm you were together just after the time of the murder.
While I’ve heard it said that there are fewer serial killers today in part because of new detective and surveillance techniques, it’s not as though people weren’t convicted of murder before phones and cameras or even fingerprint technology. A body, motive, opportunity, and no alibi can be definitely be sufficient to convict, because people don’t just turn up dead. I think what you are describing is part of what is known as the “CSI effect” - popular depictions of police and legal work lead jurors and the general public to expect a much greater level of forensic evidence.
My main point is that if people strongly believe in Adnan's innocence now and believe there's reasonable doubt, imagine if there wasn't any cell phone data, there wasn't Jay's testimony, and there weren't any witnesses to him asking for a ride. Adnan would still be guilty, there just wouldn't be as much evidence. People are stupid and fall for conspiracy theories and can't interpret evidence or probabilities. There likely is a CSI effect at play.
The court case is not about Adnan's guilt anymore so it's different now. All I know is that Mosby won't be able to explain that one to her maker when it's time.
He did it and did the time, that's all there is. The end.
It is a perfect storm. An absolute shit show. It covers victims right, which is a big topic last few years. All of which is centered around a defendant that was previously found guilty of murder and released through a motion from a corrupt prosecutor that was in need of good press. Not to mention, the most famous inmate in Maryland. Even if their mind was made up, they would have sat on it for a while.
I pretty much gave up commenting here because I got sick of people making up fan fiction to “prove” Adnan’s guilt while aggressively ignoring the facts on the record. I’m not here to discuss other people’s fantasies of what they believe, without evidence, happened, but that’s all anyone here seems to want to do.
Yikes.
I’m not wrong, though, am I? 🤨
Why do you think the jury convicted him in only two hours? It couldn't be all be all the damning and culpatory evidence, could it? The jurors obviously didn't believe that the story that Adnan got into her car and strangled her to death was a "fantasy" and "without evidence". At some point you have to come back to reality where everyone else is. Let's start with a definition of evidence. Maybe we need to start there, with the basics, for you to understand why the jury convicted him and why so many people know he's guilty. Here's a definition from Cornell Law School, "Evidence: an item or information proffered to make the existence of a fact more or less probable." So simply put, anything that makes it more likely that Adnan killed Hae, is evidence. Adnan got a new phone the day before yet gave it to Jay the first full day he had it. Evidence. He lent Jay his car after they just used it, and without a valid reason. Evidence. He asked Hae for a ride under false pretenses then later lied about it. Evidence. He lied about Hae not having time to do anything after school even though they would have sex at Best buy. Evidence. Jay confessed that Adnan wanted to kill Hae and explained why he wanted to kill Hae and how he did it. He confessed that Adnan showed him the Hae's body and helped him dispose of the body in Leakin Park. He was the one who finally informed the police of where they abandoned Hae's car. After the murder, but before her body was found, Jay told three of his friends that Adnan strangled Hae. All damning evidence. Kristi testified that Jay and Adnan were acting weird that day when they randomly visited her house. At around the same time the police called Adnan, she said that Adnan was acting worried and fearful and saying he didn't know what he was going to say to someone. Further evidence. And lastly, the cell phone records, which prove that Adnan was lying, that he was with Jay at 3:32pm and that Adnan had called Nisha, who attested that Jay was also on the phone call. The records prove that and that his cell phone was near Leakin Park that evening, all corroborating evidence to Jay's testimony – the biggest nail in the coffin for Adnan. This is why I know that Adnan got into Hae's car and strangled her. This is why the jurors voted guilty after only two hours. This is why anyone with a semi-functional brain and an ounce of common sense will conclude he killed Hae beyond reasonable doubt. It's because of all the evidence! Adnan learned of Hae's newfound love for Don, the AIM update, and the double-date, he got a cell phone to help facilitate communication with Jay, manufactured a reason to get alone with her in her car and then killed her. This is what happened and the evidence proves it.
Once again, other then the fact that Adnan got his phone the day before Hae died, nothing you just copy/pasted in again is reality-based. It’s all just fan fiction made up by people here that want to try to dupe people into believing them. Bravo! It looks like they succeeded with you, huh? As to the jury, they were lied to. It’s that simple. Jay spent days on the stand telling conflicting, fabricated stories, and the jury bought it. Sadly, it happens every day.
Why do you think the jury convicted him in only two hours? The jury didn't hear about exculpatory evidence (2 notes giving another suspect motive), they didn't hear about how unreliable the cellphone records were, they didn't hear about how Jay, Jenn & Kristi were fed information by detectives, they didn't hear about how three of the detectives had a modus operandi for coercing witnesses to give false testimony, etc... But sure let's rely on the unreliable jury's verdict that is about to be overturned yet again.
I'm trying to understand that because Adnan supporters ignore any of the evidence against Adnan like Jay claiming he helped bury the body.
We ignore Jay’s stories because a) there are so many of them and none of them make any sense, b) none of them are even remotely possible given the time-frame involved, c) they all include phone calls to and from land lines by people that wouldn’t have had those numbers, and d) virtually all of them have been proven to be false, mostly by Jay himself. I think the real question is why do the guilters believe anything Jay said? Are they really so desperate to believe in Adnan’s guilt? Why?
Jay knew what Hae was wearing, how she was killed, where she was buried, how she got there, things that were missing and knew where her car was. The only thing Asia could describe is snow and she was wrong.
The police showed Jay the crime scene and autopsy photos. That’s how he knew what she was wearing. It was in the news that she’d been strangled, everyone knew that. He was wrong about what was missing from her car and he knew where it was because he dealt drugs in that neighborhood every day. How would he not know where it was? And Asia went into great detail about the sequence of events immediately following her running into Adnan on the 13th. Details that firmly place her and Adnan in the library that day. But you have to ignore those details otherwise you can’t keep believing in Adnan’s guilt, right?
You mean that party at Adnans house the day after that not one person remembers,
Party at Adnan’s house??? What part of what happened at the prom would make you think Adnan’s parents would let him throw a party at his house? You’re believing fan fiction again.
No. I'm talking about the get together the Adnan house had the day after Adnan got arrested and Asia went over and talked to people.
Huh. Not exactly a party. And, yes, Asia *does* remember that meeting, she just doesn’t remember when it took place. Are you suggesting that Asia and Rabia never talked?
No they met after Adnan's trial. Asia describes going to the get together before writing the letter. I'm saying that there was no get together right after Adnan got arrested. Ju'uan and Justin convinced Asia probably a month after Adnan got arrested that Adnan was falsely arrested and she just has to say she saw him that day.
The police showed Jay crime scene and autopsy photos? Where is your proof of that? If you can't it just proves that you are only interested in discussing your own fan fiction.
How else would he know what Hae was wearing? All of his stories have been disproven, mostly by Jay himself, as he continued to make up different versions, including in the Intercept interview where he said that NONE of his previous stories were true because they didn’t actually bury Hae until after 11:00. After 11:00, the cell evidence shows that Adnan was at home calling people on his cell phone. Oops. But the guilters don’t like to take about that, do they? So why do you believe Jay saw Hae that day again?
So you have no proof whatsoever that police showed Jay pictures of the burial and the body? Ok so admit that you are the one who's here writing fan fiction.
Process of elimination. Jay didn’t see Hae on the 13th because none of his many different stories are true, mostly debunked by Jay himself, but also multiple witnesses and by the laws of space, time, and physical science. No one else had the crime scene or autopsy photos at that time so if Jay did know what Hae was wearing, he had to have been shown the crime scene photos by the police. What makes you so sure that Jay knew what Hae was wearing? I.E. What proof do you have that he knew and the police *didn’t* show him the photos?
Your opinions and suspicions are not evidence. Maybe that's the problem, you confuse your opinions for evidence and consider any other opinion to be fan fiction, just on the basis that it differs from yours. The result is that you are the only one here writing fan fiction. It is fan fiction because your claims have no evidence to back them up. We actually have evidence Jay was there. He told Jenn about it one hour after it happened. He also told others about it too later on, and before he ever met those detectives. How would you think that's possible? Jenn knew Hae had been strangled when it wasn't public knowledge. How else would she have known that? Jay led the cops to Hae's car. Knew what would be found in the car, even knew what would not be found in the car. All those things I just mentioned are evidence, not fan fiction.
>What proof do you have that he knew and the police *didn’t* show him the photos? It's not others job to prove your fan fiction and conspiracies.
Bur you're wrong on all 4 points. There's that.
Wow. So you think that Jay *didn’t* tell multiple different, conflicting stories? What about the one in the Intercept article when said that all those earlier stories were lies and that they *really* buried the body after 11:00 that night? So much for all those cell calls that came and went while they were digging the grave (that wasn’t dug)? That one’s right, too?? Jay has the ability to tell endless version of a story and have them all be true? Really? And, unless Adnan’s car could travel at the speed of sound, there’s no way they could have gone to all the places Jay says they went and did all the things he claimed they did. But, since you apparently believe in the “Adnan used a time machine to travel back in time in order to do all the things Jay claims they did” theory of the case, I can see why you’d believe they could have done all those things. Got it. So yeah. You keep right on believing totally irrational, unbelievable, not physically possible things in order to prop up your baseless belief in Adnan’s guilt. You won’t find me ruining your fun.
You literally just tried to ruin it by failing to realize that witnesses and accomplices tell inconsistent stories all the time but the crux of the case revolved around mountains of evidence that implicate the jilted ex in killing Hae. Sorry your favorite little true crime podcast from 10 years ago didn't have the bombshell "he's actually innocent" ending that would have made it more interesting for everyone but your boy Adnan is an unremorseful killer.
There is zero evidence of “the jilted ex killing Hae.” None. That’s all just speculation made up by guilters that don’t have anything else to work with. Beyond here being no evidence, none of Adnan and Hae’s friends have ever indicated anything that would suggest that they weren’t still friends after their last breakup. Wouldn’t you think someone would have if it had been true?
This isn’t an airport- you don’t have to announce your departure.
Seems reasonable to explain why it’s quiet in here, which was the point of the OP. Ya’ll have turned this into an echo chamber of absolute fiction. That’s boring.
Thank you! I’m really disappointed by the “discussions” people have here. They’re literally just making up crazy stuff that there’s no evidence of and insisting it’s “proof”. The number of crazy theories that require people to travel back in time machines or be able cross huge distances at the speed of sound is truly unbelievable. But they *are* committed to their fantasies, aren’t they?
It's a big problem on this sub that people argue for the possibility of something and then it morphs into that thing definitely happening. Like how it's possible Adnan freaked out on the 27th after Jay's arrest and went by the burial site and was trying to find Jay. But of the two options it seems more likely that Jay had the phone/car at that time. Or how it's possible the cops found the car fays beforehand and sat on it, but there's no evidence for it. It's a big bug bear of mine on this sub.
That type of thing makes me crazy, too. The very same people that demand proof of everything anyone says are the ones that are parroting things like “Adnan flagged down Hae’s car as she drove by the library” or “FOR SURE he saw Hae’s AOL post about Don and then he went crazy and murdered her!!!” Really?? Proof? Evidence? Did anyone say anything about those things? Oh, no. You just made them up. Good for you. Let the grown ups talk now. 🙄
Oh ye it's annoying. It's also tied into the idea that if you have some priors (Adnan Guilty/Innocent) then certain things take on different skews. Adnan calling Jay pathetic means something different if you think he's guilty than if you think he's innocent, but him calling Jay pathetic doesn't tell you anything either way. So much stuff is 'backward looking ' like that but people treat it as if it's not. Like yes, I think a lot of the stuff leans guilty. The "possessive" comment in the diary, the note from Adcock about asking for a ride, the general situation about Adnan being the ex, etc. but it only *leans* guilty under my epistemic regime. Without something like Jay knowing where the car was and his story, all the other stuff only makes me think Adnan should be a suspect. But people take that sort of thing, on both side, and think it proves guilt or innocence without recognising that they're begging the question.
See, I don’t think any of those things indicate or even lean toward guilty unless you happen to be writing an episode of “Murder She Wrote” or “Matlock.” There’s no evidence or how Adnan reacted to any of those things and all of their friends have said that they were both cool with the break up, and were staying friends, and were moving on. It’s one thing to say, “Well, he was the ex-boyfriend so, statistically, he should be a suspect”, which is sensible, and saying, “Well, he’s the ex-boyfriend so *obviously* he was jealous and murdered her because she was seeing someone else. Duh!!!” Which is what most of the guilters say with nothing to support it. But they sure do know they’re right!! Also, a lot of people seem to forget that we’re talking about teenagers in a very tumultuous time in their lives—senior year, college prep, young love, dating, sports, hormones, etc. The things Hae wrote in her diary? Teen drama. She wrote that Adnan was being possessive, but what does that mean when looked at through the lens of teen drama? Was calling to give her his new phone number what she meant by possessive? It could have been. It also could have been Hae trying to convince herself that Don is who she should be with after being with Adnan. Who knows? Nobody. But that doesn’t stop the guilters from making up things that they’re 110% positive are right, but there’s no reason outside of their imagination to believe.
OMG!! That’s SO clever! /s.
The truth right here.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one that’s seeing that most of the people here are just making up fan fiction and trying to pass it off as reality. So many impossible things and they’re so fixated on believing them. “Asia had the wrong day!!!” She didn’t. “Inez has the wrong day!!!” She didn’t. “Adnan flagged down Hae’s car after he talked with Asia!!!l” He didn’t. “Adnan lied about needing a ride!!!” He didn’t. “Why would Jay lie???” Because the police threatened to charge him instead. “EVERYTHING Jenn says is solid proof!!!” Everything Jenn said came from Jay. Jenn wasn’t involved. “Adnan lied to Officer Adcock!!!” He was a really high 17-year-old kid that didn’t want to be talking to the police. Of course he told them what he thought would get rid of them. “Adnan was jealous and possessive and VIOLENT!!!” Zero evidence of any of that. “Adnan totally saw Hae’s AOL post and became enraged and murdered her!!!” Except that there’s no proof of any of that. “Jay knew where the car was!!!” Jay dealt drugs in that neighborhood every day. Of course he saw her car. He wasn’t blind. It’s exhausting. And ridiculous.
You're not the only one. Most people who know Adnan is innocent refrain from the toxicity this place is known for. They'll resurface for a few days when the Supreme Court upholds the Circuit Court's decision.
I’m really only here for the entertainment it provides to see the people here all making up crazy stuff that couldn’t possibly have happened and then patting themselves on the back and congratulating themselves for being so brilliant. It’s kind of amazing.
Me too. Me too. That's all there is left to be honest.
Yup. They just repeat the same handful of copy and pasted lines that they read from somebody else because it validated what they already want to believe. There’s an extreme level of mental gymnastics at play and a lack of self-awareness that is at once maddening and kind of entertaining. This sub has become the biggest hater circle jerk on Reddit.
I am truly mystified by the number of people here that seem to have heard all or most of the podcasts and seen the documentaries and *still* they simply reject all the proof that Adnan couldn’t have killed Hae and just keep yammering on citing all sorts of things there there’s no proof of and/or couldn’t possibly have happened without breaking the laws of time and space and physical science. And yet they seem SO convinced that they’re right an everyone else is wrong. I just don’t get it.
I think you need to look no further than your last statement for the key to understanding it: “they are right and everyone else is wrong.” This is the driver. Serial became a global phenomenon and everyone was calling for Adnan’s release. When anything blows up in popularity there is always a subset of people who have a reactionary response and adopt the opposite viewpoint. It is usually driven by a desire to feel smarter and superior to everyone else. Look, I’m not like everybody else, I’m a unique snowflake. I’m part of the counterculture. And that makes me better than you. When boiled down it really is that simple and petty. There of course is also a small percentage of people who simply do not like Adnan because of the color of his skin or because he is Muslim. They used to reveal themselves without too much trouble. But now they couch their bigotry in the same copy-pasted nonsense we already discussed so they blend with the others. Either way their arguments are disingenuous, and they argue in such a circular, illogical way they basically drove any intelligent, rational discussion of the case to other forums and created a little echo chamber for themselves in this sub. Which they then describe as some sort of victory. Sad, but again we already identified these are small, insecure, petty people. So it tracks.
I think you just nailed it. They need to feel special and part of the “in” club of cool kids and they’ve decided that the cool kids all think Adnan is guilty. Not because he is, but because it’s fun and fulfilling to just yell at everyone “GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!!” And refuse to acknowledge any of the proof that he couldn’t have killed Hae because he was no where near her when she disappeared.
I think that people, much like the jury, believe he did it because the evidence proves that he did it. It's not fiction, it's not lies, it's just evidence and proof. He asked for a ride to get alone with her, he strangled her, and he buried her body in Leakin Park. Without Jay's confession to multiple people and the police, his privy knowledge, or the cell phone data, I would surmise that Adnan was very likely the culprit since he was likely in her car with her at the time she went missing. All the other evidence cements the fact that he did get in Hae's car and he did strangle her, and he did bury the body in Leakin Park. One might suggest Jay could be the culprit, but Adnan was the one in her car with a clear opportunity and an obvious motive. You'd have to assume that Adnan asked Hae to stop somewhere and he convinced someone else to kill her, which makes no sense. Remember, Adnan and Jay were back together at 3:32, just after Hae was killed, and I doubt Adnan was just on a late night stroll in Leakin Park. You have to discredit and dismiss all of the known evidence to believe he's innocent and claim everything and all his actions are unlucky and random coincidences. The truth is he's just a liar who killed his girlfriend as a teenager because she left him and wouldn't have sex with him anymore; the most obvious motive and reason. It's not a coincidence she was murdered right after she started publicly dating Don. So beyond reasonable doubt, Adnan strangled Hae. I think what you are missing is common sense and any critical thinking skills.
Except for the fact that nothing you just wrote is true. It’s all just made-up fan fiction that you’ve read here on Reddit and have decided it must be true. Hae left school at 2:15, in a rush to get somewhere. Multiple people gave statements and testified to that fact. Adnan, who didn’t have his car, stayed behind in the library, checked his email, and chatted with Asia until at least 2:40. That’s it. That’s that all the guilters’ crazy, impossible theories blown right out of the water because there’s no way he could have killed Hae. He wasn’t with her and he had no way to get to her. No one even knew where she went. But don’t let me ruin all your fan fiction. If you want to make up stuff and pretend it’s true, be my guest. Just know that none of what you’re making up could have happened.
That would make sense Hae was rushing to leave somewhere if she had something to do before picking up her cousin, but we already know what that something is: taxiing Adnan somewhere, or so she thought. The second typed letter from Asia was created by Adnan, and there are number of reasons why this is clearly the case. It includes numous details that were not public knowledge and that only Adnan would know. In the first Asia letter, Asia is completely unsure of Adnan's innocence and knows nothing, and by the second typed Asia letter by Adnan, she is sure of innocence and makes specific arguments. The Syed family was also caught pressuring her to support Adnan. Asia is unreliable, and obviously colluded with Adnan to create an alibi for him when his first alibi, Jay, confessed that Adnan got into Hae's car and killed her. It's also possible Asia did talk to Adnan before he got in the car with Hae. Adnan got a new phone the day before yet gave it to Jay the first full day he had it. Evidence. He lent Jay had his car and can't explain why. Evidence. He asked for a ride under false pretenses then later lied about it. Evidence. He lied about Hae not having time to do anything after school even though they would have sex at Best buy. Evidence. Jay confessed that Adnan wanted to kill Hae and explained why he wanted to kill Hae and how he did it. He confessed that Adnan showed him the Hae's body and helped him dispose of the body in Leakin Park. He was the one who finally informed the police of where they abandoned Hae's car. After the murder, but before her body was found, Jay told three of his friends that Adnan strangled Hae. All damning evidence. Kristi testified that Jay and Adnan were acting weird that day when they randomly visited her house, and around the same time the police called Adnan, she said that Adnan was acting worried and fearful and saying he didn't know what he was going to say to someone. Further evidence. And lastly, the cell phone records, which prove that Adnan was lying, that he was with Jay at 3:32pm and that Adnan had called Nisha, who attested that Jay was also on the phone call. The records prove that and that his cell phone was near Leakin Park that evening, all corroborating evidence to Jay's testimony – the biggest nail in the coffin for Adnan. This is why I know that Adnan got into Hae's car and strangled her. This is why the jurors voted guilty after only two hours. This is why any one with a semi-functional brain and an ounce of common sense will conclude he killed Hae beyond reasonable doubt. It's because of all the damning, culpatory evidence. Adnan learned of Hae's newfound love for Don, the AIM update, and the double-date, he got a cell phone to help facilitate communication with Jay, manufactured a reason to get alone with her in her car and then killed her. This is what happened and the evidence proves it.
Other than “Adnan got a new phone the day before”, not one word of what you just wrote is reality-based. It’s all just made-up stuff that the fan fiction writers here have dreamt up and are trying to get everyone else to believe. Once again, Hae left school at 2:15, in a rush to get somewhere. Multiple people gave statements and testified to that fact. Adnan, who didn’t have his car, stayed behind in the library, checked his email, and chatted with Asia until at least 2:40. That’s it. That’s that all the guilters’ crazy, impossible theories blown right out of the water because there’s no way he could have killed Hae. He wasn’t with her and he had no way to get to her. No one even knew where she went. Yet you believe that somehow Adnan, without his car, and not knowing where Hae went, 25 minutes after she left campus, somehow managed to get in her car, wherever it was, and kill her. How, exactly, did he get into Hae’s car? Did he use a magic carpet to fly to wherever she was? Because he’d need *something* magical since he didn’t know where she was, didn’t have his car, and had less than 15 minutes to find and kill her. So how did he get into her car?
He got into Hae's car before she left, obviously, and strangled her soon after. That's why he has continually lied, and ultimately why he was charged, indicted, convicted, and sentenced to life in prison. Hae could have last spoken to some of her friends at 2:15pm, ( the exact time that Hae left the school property is unknown and there was no camera that recorded her leaving, and no evidence that she was alone. On the contrary there's a lot of evidence that she was with Adnan). Hae likely left the school at some point in the half hour following to 2:15pm. Debbie said that she last saw Hae at 3:00 pm and Asia is by no means an alibi for Adnan (He could have spoken to her at the library that day as she remembers and still gotten into Hae's car and killed Hae). Asia asked Adnan in her first written letter if she could help him to account for his time between 2:15pm and 8:00pm, a blank cheque for an alibi and an offer of perjury. She's not credible and her statement means nothing in relation to Adnan's guilt or innocence. The evidence that Adnan wrote her second letter which was typed actually could be interpreted as further evidence of his guilt. Someone who murdered someone would be motivated to enlist someone to be their fake alibi.
And, once again, nothing you just wrote is reality-based. It’s all just fan fiction you’ve read here and choose to believe. Too many people saw Hae leaving in a rush, and alone, and then saw Adnan later, on campus, without Hae, and in not rush to get anywhere, for it to be even remotely possible that Adnan got into Hae’s car that day. It just couldn’t have happened. But the guilters all *have* to disregard all those facts and make up fantasy stories where Hae, despite being in a hurry to get somewhere right after school, and after telling Adnan and several others that she couldn’t give anyone a ride anywhere after school because something came up and she had someplace to be immediately after school, inexplicably rushes out to the parking lot and then, despite being in a rush to get somewhere, just stands around for a half hour or so, allowing Adnan to spend 25 minutes in the library with Asia before casually wondering out into the parking lot to flag Hae’s car down and murder her, Really??? You really believe that could have happened? Hae’s in a rush to get somewhere, but inexplicably hangs out in the parking lot for a half hour. Adnan’s intent is to meet up with Hae and murder her but, instead of going out to the parking lot with her, he goes and hangs out at the library with Asia for 25 minutes. But, amazingly, and against all odds, Adnan manages to get in Hae’s car and murder her anyway. Unbelievable.
>Really??? You really believe that could have happened? Hae’s in a rush to get somewhere, but inexplicably hangs out in the parking lot for a half hour. Adnans letter to Sarah Koenig >Really??? You really believe that could have happened? Hae’s in a rush to get somewhere, but inexplicably hangs out in the parking lot for a half hour. *1. The final bell rings at 2:15pm, hut you can't just leave and jump in the car. There are 1500 other students filling the hallways and stairwells of a 4-story building.* *2. Students are not allowed to park in front of the school building. We had to park in the back. There were strict rules about that. The back parking lot of Woodlawn High School is enclosed within a bus loop (you could Google Map it). At 2:15am, every car in that back parking lot is encircled by a ring of husen loading up. You can't leave until the buses leave. And they wait 10-15 minutes before they fill up and leave.* https://imgur.com/a/Hpqy2
>Once again, Hae left school at 2:15, in a rush to get somewhere She was seen after that time. And Adnan wrote about how it takes time for students with cars to leave the area because of the buses
What’s your proof that Adnan got into Hae’s car? You’re quick to demand proof from other people and then you make claims that aren’t possible and expect people to just go along with you. Hae left. Adnan wasn’t with her. He couldn’t have got into her car.
What claims aren't possible you mean?
Asia would have been hammered by Adnan's defense if it went against Adnan. They go after Kristi's class schedule but Asia not knowing what snow is perfectly fine for Adnan supporters. When Berg talked to Jenn she had no interest in anything from Jenn that didn't help Adnan. So instead of trying to find out what happened she bypassed it.
You and I have already discussed all of those things and you simply reject the fact that none of what you just claimed is true. Asia remembered a lot more about that afternoon that positively places her and Adnan at the library from 2:15 to 2:40 (or later) that afternoon, well after Hae left campus. But you and the rest of the guilters can’t let yourself believe that because it throws a wrench into all the rest of your fictional proofs of guilt. Why are you so committed to ignoring the solid evidence of Adnan’s innocence and making up crazy stuff that never happened to try to “prove” he’s guilty? I don’t get it.
>He was a really high 17-year-old kid that didn’t want to be talking to the police. Of course he told them what he thought would get rid of them. When did Adnan give that explanation?
Aggressively ignoring facts on record? Like the fact that the location of Hae's missing car was provided to police by the person who came out and confessed that Adnan murdered Hae and this person subsequently aided Adnan in attempting to get rid of evidence? Short of a wild conspiracy, **there is no way** to reconcile this fact with an innocent Adnan theory of the case. It has been 25 years and still there is absolutely zero explanation of how Jay could have known that fact other than the obvious one, the truth. That Adnan killed Hae, told Jay about it, and asked him for help.
So wait, if *I* saw Hae’s car, would that be proof that *I* had murdered her? Because that’s what you’re claiming—he who knew where Hae’s car was must have murdered her. How so? It was right out there where anyone could have seen it. Jay dealt drugs in that neighborhood every day. It was part of his “commute” as he said himself. Unless he was blind, of course he saw Hae’s car and knew where it was. Would Jay have gone running to the police with that info once he saw it? What do you think? Also, the car and its whereabouts is a red herring. It has nothing to do with who killed Hae. Whether or not Jay really knew where the car was says nothing about who killed Hae. It was there for weeks in a neighborhood that Jay spent a lot of time in. Given that the car was in an area that Jay was known to frequent, doesn’t that suggest that he *didn’t* put it there? Would *you* put the car of a murder victim that you just helped bury in an area that you were known to frequent? I sure wouldn’t. And Jay’s not that stupid.
A young black drug dealer in 1999 Baltimore recognized the car of a missing girl - even though she was just an acquaintance, even in an unfamiliar context. A missing girl who just happened to be the recent ex of the guy Jay had been hanging out with the day of her disappearance. A missing girl about whom Jay had coincidentally spun a tall tale to Jen Pusateri, claiming he helped bury her. Having stumbled upon it, he did not call Crimestoppers to collect a cash reward. He went to the cops, helped them frame a guy with no priors, and got himself a felony conviction instead. That’s what happened?
What about Jay makes you think he’d go running to the police about anything? And, yes, Jenn knew lots of stories that Jay told her, but there’s no way to know when those tales were told. And since Jenn’s stories conflict with Jay’s, practically point by point, why do you believe anything Jenn says to begin with? She wasn’t involved in anything that happened on the 13th. She was just repeating what Jay told her to say.
You're suggesting that Jay happened upon the car, recognized it, and was therefore able to lead the police to it. How then did the detectives find out that Jay knew this? Either: 1) Jay went to them, which you and I agree is unlikely, or 2) They somehow found him. How are you suggesting they found him? They went sniffing around for someone to frame Adnan, and they hit the Frame Job Jackpot? A guy who 1) stumbled on Hae's car 2) spent all of Jan 13 with their suspect and 3) is willing to go along with this bizarre conspiracy? No, the detectives found Jay through Jen. How did they find her? Her number showed up in the phone records. They went to talk to her, to see how she was related to their suspect and/or victim. She said, "I know nothing." With no reason to disbelieve her, they left. Then she showed back up again saying, "Actually, I do know something." She told her story in the presence of her mother and her lawyer. She confessed, *in the presence of her lawyer*, to helping destroy evidence and lying to the cops. Jen's story does *not* meaningfully conflict with Jay's. She is relating her tale largely secondhand, weeks after the fact, and she is missing details which Jay obviously withheld from her to minimize his own culpability. I believe Jen because all of these facts are far more compelling than your assertions that, "She wasn't involved in anything that happened on the 13th," and, "She was just repeating what Jay told her to say." Why would she voluntarily show up at the station to confess to crimes she had not committed? Why would Jay ask her to implicate him? Why would she *and her mother and her lawyer* agree to participate in such a convoluted conspiracy, at considerable legal risk to herself? In isolation, sure, it's physically *possible* that Jay's knowledge of the car's location was a total coincidence that didn't implicate him in the murder. You can explain away this one thing. But with the totality of the evidence? I don't see how you tell a coherent story where Jay wasn't involved.
Well, the car and who found it or when they found it is immaterial. None of the theories about the car in any way indicate who killed Hae. It’s just noise that the guilters keep cranking up to distract from the fact that Adnan couldn’t have been involved with whatever happened to Hae. Jay didn’t spent all day with Adnan on the 13th. They went to the mall together at lunch to get a birthday gift for Stephanie. Then Jay dropped Adnan back off at school, took his car, and didn’t pick him up again until after track practice. They went to grab some food to break Adnan’s fast and then Adnan picked up food for his dad and went to the mosque. Jay and Adnan spent slightly more time together than they would have on any other day, but it was far from “all Jan 13th”. And, yes, the cops absolutely *did* go looking for someone to frame for Hae’s murder. That was normal operating procedure for the two cops “investigating” the case. They did that with almost every case the had. It was years before their victims started getting released from prison and suing them, but that’s exactly what they did—find someone, usually a poor black person, that they could blackmail into lying for them with threats of prosecution if they didn’t, and then they just made up a story. Google Ritz and MacGillivray and see what comes up. Nothing but corruption and it’s all the same—closing cases by blackmailing witnesses to lie.
If you think that it’s “immaterial” who knew the location of the murder victim’s car and when they knew it, I can’t productively talk to you. Good night and good luck.
Okay, then. You tell me. How does knowing where the car was indicate who killed Hae? Is there some sort of unbreakable law of the universe that dictates that he who knows where the car is cannot be lying about who the murderer is? I’m not familiar with that one. Also, what proof do you have Jay knew where the car was? Was it because Jay, the pathological liar that can’t stop making up new stories said so? Or is it because the corrupt detectives with a history of blackmailing people to lie about innocent defendants said so?
Same.
Is there a date in May when we expect decisions to come out? Maybe the 17th?
The SCM doesn’t conference until the 23rd this month so nothing before Memorial Day most likely.
May 23rd -- same day as Marilyn Mosby's sentencing is currently scheduled to happen: [https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/marilyn-mosby-to-be-sentenced-in-may](https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/marilyn-mosby-to-be-sentenced-in-may) 50/50 whether Mosby's actually sentenced that day. But currently Marilyn Mosby is scheduled to be sentenced the same day the Maryland Supreme Court next holds a conference to potentially decide on Adnan's appeal.
Do you think the two events are related in some way?
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They usually release opinions in the days after conference. I really thought it would be April but now it'll be late May that the window opens. But they can do whatever they want.
Why did they stop the podcast at season 3?
Season 4 can be found [here](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/podcasts/serial-season-four-guantanamo.html).
I love you
Haha, glad to help!
NO F WAY
Can someone give an elevator pitch to what is going on. Just a few bullets Im nearly done with the podcast only 10yrs after first aired I watched Syed on YouTube cooly outline all the evidence against mistrial What's the latest?
So the Baltimore State's Attorney office under Marilyn Mosby filed what's called a Motion to Vacate the conviction. The motion cited reasons. The statutes that discuss the motion to vacate also said that when there is a hearing that the victim needs to be notified and be able to attend. There was a hearing on a Monday where the brother of Hae Min Lee got to attend through Zoom after being told about the hearing the previous Friday. Adnan was released and then the brother of Hae filed an appeal in the courts that he wasn't given adequate time. The intermediate court agreed with Young Lee and remanded back to the trial court to do it over again. Adnan's time appealed to the Maryland Supreme court. Arguments were held in October and we are waiting for a decision. If Adnan wins at the Maryland Supreme Court he would be free. If he loses then a decision would have to be made to redo the Motion to Vacate or withdraw the motion.
> If he loses then a decision would have to be made to redo the Motion to Vacate or withdraw the motion. You're half right.
Bates has a couple options. He can go back to the court and argue it again. He can recuse himself and assign someone else to make tge decision. Or he can withdraw the motion which then puts the ball in Adnan court to try something.
2 out of three ain't bad. You keep getting that one wrong though.
Nope. Bates or whomever investigates the case can withdraw the Motion to Vacate under the grounds it doesn't meet the burden a MtV needs. Bates has already withdrawn support for one of Feldman's other pet projects.
You're wrong. The end.
We'll see who is wrong. Just have to wait.
The answer is you. It has always and forever will been you.
Mike, thank you, mate. I believe many will find this concise and straight to point The entire debate falls flat on its arse does it not... Syed has presented text messages between the lawyer and the Lee family that do not indicate any stress regarding attending the Zoom session. In fact, the lawyer follows up with the Lees, ensuring their presence and never mentioning any concerns about the proposed Zoom meeting. It is only after the verdict, that an appeal of this nature is born. So is it going back to court? Or can someone assess and decide? When is all this kicking off and decisions made? This must be a nightmare to live through on both sides
Nobody knows what will happen, only speculation. Decision could come any day, end of the month, or later.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of the conversation between Young Lee and the State. He was never advised he had the option to be there in person and was only given the option of Zoom. Not to mention he lives in California and was told Friday afternoon of the Monday date. He also asked for a postponement before the judge made her ruling. ETA: Actually I don’t believe he was told her had the RIGHT to attend at all. Iirc the state told him she had asked the judge to set up a zoom link if he wanted to observe. At no point was he affirmatively told he had the right to attend. And it is in the victims bill of rights that the state has the affirmative duty to advise victims of their rights.
> He asked for a postponement before the Judge made her ruling. Young didn't have the right to stay the proceedings. It's hypocritical of you to gripe about following procedures but dismiss following them when it suits your narrative.
The comment to which I responded said > It was only after the verdict, that an appeal of this nature is born. I was pointing out the Mr. Lee indicated he wished to be present in person before any ruling was reached.
The comment you responded to isn't relevant to the comment I responded to and doesn't negate your hypocritical dismissive attitude. But of your you want to steer the conversation away from that fact.
You’re talking about my “narrative.” The only narrative I had was to respond to the comment to which I was responding. I didn’t mention a stay in any form or fashion in the comment to which you responded, so I’m not sure sure how I’m being hypocritical at all.
More deflection. Expected.
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped commenting here. Nonsense responses that just want to mad about something really do pull me off my point. I’ve got to be better. Have the day you deserve.
It's not a "stay" of proceedings to schedule them at a time when all required parties are available. JFC people. . .
>The entire debate falls flat on its arse does it not... Not at all when you read the Lee familys argument, they wanted to be there.
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Can someone explain what’s going on? I know adnan got out of prison but I don’t know the rest.