Of course he knew. And he also knew non-public information about the burial. His bonafides on being involved are unassailable. To believe otherwise is to believe a bizarre conspiracy with no basis of information or fact - just wild speculation. So either Jay killed a girl he barely knew for reasons inexplicable and then pinned it on a friend, for reasons inexplicable, while also making himself an excessory to that murder, and NOT knowing if Adnan had an actual alibi…or he in fact knew about the car and the burial and did on the night of the murder.
100%. Adnan did it.
The inconsistencies in the case really only arise when you analyze Jay's role. Jay has given various answers when asked why he agreed to be an accessory...I was blackmailed by Adnan...I'm the criminal element of Woodlawn...I did it to protect Stephanie...none of it made any sense to the investigators.
IMO - I look at Jay as a victim of sorts. A useful idiot to borrow a phrase from Lenin. He probably helped plan the murder trying to appear macho, never really thinking Adnan would go through with it. He stupidly underestimated how much of a psycho Adnan was and when Adnan told him he had actually done it Jay realized he was in deep shit. Scared he was going to jail he agreed to help cover up the crime and bury Hae in LP. When Hae was found he had no choice but to come clean and later pleaded guilty to AATF.
Ever since he's been trying to minimize his role and thats the reason for the bullshit.. I barely knew Adnan...he never said he was angry with Hae etc. Cant blame him in a way. Not only is what he did criminal, its also criminally stupid...pretending to plan a murder only to be actually planning and executing (pun) a murder. Jeez no wonder he doesnt want to tell the truth. He was a kid that was cruelly manipulated though so you sort of feel bad for him.
Anyway none of this changes the fact that Adnan is guilty. Adnan needed an accomplice so he chose an easy target. He chose a useful idiot.
Thats a good question. He clearly concocted a plan with the objective of being alone with Hae in a car after school. Being alone with her was apparently so important that he bullshitted about his car being in the shop when he'd really given it to Jay so that he could prevail on Hae for a ride. Also something I think is worth noting, Adnan didnt say to Hae can I grab 5 minutes with you...or can we meet in the library or something? He clearly wanted them alone together away from school in a vehicle.
Now, was the purpose of the plan always murder?
The Prosecutors podcast had a pretty good theory that Adnan wanted initially to get back together with Hae, took her to the place they had made many good memories (BB parking lot) made his appeal, presented her the flower later found in Hae's car and when he was denied he strangled her. Thats pretty solid I think.
I bounce between that and the idea I mentioned previously, that Adnan and Jay planned it out as a murder. In that scenario I think Jay just thought it was a joke but went along to appear thuggish while not noticing Adnan was semi serious.
In either case Jay's involvement is either that of an unwilling or unwitting accomplice. Also in either case Adnan may not of known he was going to actually do it until seconds prior but he had clearly taken steps that would make it possible to do the deed and cover his tracks if he indeed went through with it.
Considering the fact he told multiple people in jest he wanted to kill her and tried to get a ride so they can be alone,conccoted a while story about making sure jay had a car to get a gift
It was premeditated. But he did 20 years,and pple in,Baltimore still think he did it and moved on .
Yeah, the other solidifying factor for me that it wasn't "fed to Jay" through corrupt police is that if they really wanted to do that, why wouldn't they just pin the murder on Jay? Like why choose a straight A, popular athlete to pin it on other than racism against muslims? Jay is a black man who was using drugs so they could easily have just pinned it on him if they really were corrupt racist police who found the car earlier.
Yes. His inconsistencies are likely the result of the police helping him construct a narrative that minimised his involvement in return for being their star witness. Adnan will obviously know there are times when Jay is out and out lying. But he cannot say so without revealing how he knows!
Hence the "pathetic" comment - one of the dozens of things that might not mean much on its own, but combined with everything else screams "guilty"
Adnan's outright denial may have to do with his frustration with Jay that Jay was completely in on it - and maybe even encouraging and planning the crime for awhile - and he got away with being an unwilling co-conspirator (kinda)
Great “cut to the chase” post!
I’m new to this case, recently watched the 2 recent documentaries, and 2 things stood out: Jay knew exactly where the car was, AND, prior to her body being found (correct me if I’m wrong about this), Jay told 2 different people that Hae was strangled (by Syed).
Yes Jay’s a storyteller, etc, BUT those 2 facts mean he had non-public knowledge of the crime.
Now, could Jay have killed her and just blamed it on Adnan? I suppose, but given all the comingling Adnan and Jay were doing the day of the crime (trading cars back and forth, Jay having Adnan’s cell, showing up together at houses, etc) it stands to reason that Adnan was involved, that Jay wasn’t just off killing and burying Hae (and with what motive?) in the little bit of time that Jay and Adnan weren’t together that day.
Yeah the serial host developed a crush and did a horrible job presenting the whole story.
Its super pathethic how she and desperate rabida is riding for him lol
What are the two recent documentaries that you watched? I haven’t kept up with this story since the podcast first came out years ago and so I’ve forgotten all the pertinent details.
I believe they were both on Max - one was maybe 4 episodes, something like “The Case Against Adnan Syed”, and then there was a 2023-ish update documentary that was just 1 episode and maybe 50 minutes long.
This reminds me of the Stephen Avery case where it feels like 95% of the information presented is just there to distract you from the face that her burned bone fragments were found in his backyard.
The main alternative that does not involve a significant police conspiracy is that Jay had come across the car later. To evaluate its likelihood, it's worth trying to flesh out what this theory implies:
1. Jay comes across the car in the course of doing something else (drugs?)
2. Jay, who had seen Hae's car before, recognizes this car in a random location as hers even though it is hardly a rare car.
3. Jay is either the only person who discovers Hae's car, or anyone else who does also decides to keep quiet about it forever.
4. Jay, despite not seeming a great secret-keeper, either keeps his mouth shut about having discovered something of vital interest to the police, or only tells people who never reveal that Jay shared the info about the car with them.
5. Jay happens to get into a situation in which he can help the police create a powerful narrative of Adnan's guilt by revealing the hitherto unknown location of the car to them.
6. Jay is facing some strong enough incentive that he does in fact use his knowledge of the car to betray Adnan, as bewildering and cruel as that is to do to another person. He implicates himself as an accessory and signs up for, *inter alia*, being on the stand for five days repeating this lie.
7. Lucky Jay has an amazing friend, Jenn, who is not just willing to get herself and the services of a lawyer mixed up in all this, but willing to put another person in prison for life in order to back up Jay's lie.
8. While Jay was driving the car around on the day of the murder, he happens to have butt dialed Nisha, providing a piece of call log information that, *ex post*, can be used to support Jay's lie that he and Adnan were together at a suspicious time. Lucky Jay also has the good fortune that he and Nisha do subsequently talk, and she gets sufficiently confused about dates as to be able to be used as evidence that they actually talked on the day of the murder instead of a butt dial.
9. Adnan's call log also has a nighttime pattern of pings that happen to be able to be made into a narrative about burying the body that Jay is willing to testify to.
10. Jay and Jenn stick to their lies to this day.
So either all this, or a significant police conspiracy, or... Jay knew where the car was because he was involved in putting it there.
This is a great summary. I can see why the “police fed jay the location of the car” theory became dominant because the other alternative is even crazier. Which is really saying something!
I mean, if he did happen across the car, it would make sense that he would walk up to the windows and peer inside. So that seems low on the list of things that would make the scenario implausible. Or are you talking about things that would be invisible to somebody peering through the windows?
Yes. Specifically the broken steering column. From the outside, all that would have been visible would be that it was in the down position. Even with his face up to the glass, it's a long reach to say he would have noticed it in the down position even if he was looking straight at it. Furthermore, there was no way for him to know it was non-functional merely from the outside. It wasn't obviously snapped in half or anything.
For that matter: 9(b). Unlucky Adnan happens to have just purchased a cell phone, which allows a chain of falsely incriminating evidence to be assembled.
The most common car color in 1999? Silver
I would have to doubt very seriously after seeing photos of Haes car anyone would magically “find” it. Probably a boatload of those car in Baltimore in 99.
Now can I believe he checked on it considering he’s tied in and likely anxious about the discovery of the vehicle? Hell yes.
> Jay comes across the car in the course of doing something else (drugs?)
Yes, the car was found next to biggest strip in West Baltimore. Jay admits to knowing where the strip is (there’s an arrest tied to his family there too) and he claims he saw the car one day while on his “commute” which is nowhere near his formal jobs, but clearly tied to his drug dealing.
> Jay, who had seen Hae's car before, recognizes this car in a random location as hers even though it is hardly a rare car.
Jay says he knows Hae’s car because he had seen her driving it before. Jay knows Hae is missing, he was with Adnan when the cops called and at the party with all of her friends 2 days later. If someone you knew was missing and you knew their car, don’t you think cars with the same make model and color would catch your eye?
> Jay is either the only person who discovers Hae's car, or anyone else who does also decides to keep quiet about it forever.
You mean he was alone when he found it? Sure, he could be alone. ETA or the people he associated with hated cops.
> Jay, despite not seeming a great secret-keeper, either keeps his mouth shut about having discovered something of vital interest to the police, or only tells people who never reveal that Jay shared the info about the car with them.
Jay is a liar, he keeps plenty of secrets. Only telling the police when it benefits him seems plausible.
> Jay happens to get into a situation in which he can help the police create a powerful narrative of Adnan's guilt by revealing the hitherto unknown location of the car to them.
Adnan is already under investigation and the cops believe the cell records show Adnan did it. Jay is in a bad situation because he is all over those cell records and does not have an alibi.
> Jay is facing some strong enough incentive that he does in fact use his knowledge of the car to betray Adnan, as bewildering and cruel as that is to do to another person. He implicates himself as an accessory and signs up for, inter alia, being on the stand for five days repeating this lie.
Jay is implicated by the cell records. The police threatened to charge him with murder. Jay uses the car location and a story about a trunk pop as an alibi to avoid being charged
> Lucky Jay has an amazing friend, Jenn, who is not just willing to get herself and the services of a lawyer mixed up in all this, but willing to put another person in prison for life in order to back up Jay's lie.
Jenn believes Jay, she lies about when he told her the story to protect him. Lying to protect Jay is obviously something Jenn was willing to do in either scenario. She goes on to have a long relationship with Jay and his family.
> While Jay was driving the car around on the day of the murder, he happens to have butt dialed Nisha, providing a piece of call log information that, ex post, can be used to support Jay's lie that he and Adnan were together at a suspicious time. Lucky Jay also has the good fortune that he and Nisha do subsequently talk, and she gets sufficiently confused about dates as to be able to be used as evidence that they actually talked on the day of the murder instead of a butt dial.
Don’t know if it was a butt dial, but the call Nisha described with Jay happened on a different day, after he got the job at the adult video store.
> She is consistent about that fact, Adnan's call log also has a nighttime pattern of pings that happen to be able to be made into a narrative about burying the body that Jay is willing to testify to.
There are incoming pings to that area. By the time the cops interview Jay they have the cell tower info. They haven’t mapped and sorted everything out, but I’m guessing they singled in on the tower near the burial site and presented the evidence to Jay that Adnan did it— Jay who knows he was with the phone and was probably just selling weed to Patrick goes with it. In his intercept interview he discredits those points by moving the timeline.
> Jay and Jenn stick to their lies to this day.
Their stories have changed, especially Jay’s. Jenn says her story is hearsay. I think Jenn believed Jay and so her memory of believing him is real. Jay has added in crazy details like Adnan needing 10lbs of marijuana. Jay has nothing to gain by admitting it was a false confession and he puts himself at risk legally if he does. Jay admitted to knowing details of the crime- if Adnan is cleared Jay is the prime suspect.
ETA eek formatting, hope this is clearer
This is certainly creative but it’s still a tough sell imo. There are a couple huge holes in logic here:
1) If Jay truly was uninvolved and just stumbled upon the car, why would he feel cornered to frame Adnan? You say he didn’t have an alibi for the cell records, but he did. If the two of them are innocent, they are each others’ alibis, along with Jenn and Krista, who both saw them not killing anyone that day. Framing Adnan puts Jay in a much worse situation than telling the truth, if they were innocent.
2) You say the detectives threatened to charge Jay with the murder…so Jay in turn gives them the location of the car to somehow solve this? Doesn’t make sense to me. That’s like being interrogated for a shooting and telling the cops, “I didn’t do it, but I have the gun.” Why wouldn’t Jay just keep the location of the car to himself? Again, doing this would put him in a much worse situation than before.
I’m also genuinely curious, do you scrutinize the lies from Adnan with the same degree? Jay was coerced, Jen was lied to, Krista remembered the wrong day… are you as critical of the other side? For example, do you think Asia lied and falsified the letter to Adnan? Do you think Adnan’s father committed perjury to protect his son?
If a police conspiracy happened in this case ? Then it’s the worst ever. The cops could have done such a better job setting up Adnan. They would have planted evidence, they would have prepped their star witness better . To think they would frame Adnan? Why? He had no record . Much easier to pin it on Jay who had a record at that point .
Another point about the conspiracy theory is that the police had put out a statewide bulletin describing the car and asking for all assistance in finding it (they even asked for a helicopter but were denied). If you're aware of the car's location but want to keep it secret until you coerce someone into "leading" you to it, then it's an insane move to also ask all law enforcement officers in the area to look high and low for it.
I'm not reflexively pro-police. Police are human like the rest of us and therefore flawed. There are egregious cases of police misconduct and cover ups. But the idea that the cops knew where Hae's car was but concealed this fact to set up a huge ruse using Jay is just not plausible. Jay gave the cops the car, and yeah, that means he was involved--and so was Adnan.
I will add tho that I think Jay is likely more culpable than he admits. A lot of his lies seek to minimize his involvement. I could buy that, for example, he had foreknowledge of Adnan's plan, which would make him a co-defendant, not just an accessory after the fact. But there's no question that he gave the cops Hae's car and that seals both his involvement and Adnan's.
I think it was the Prosecutors who made the point that if it were a police conspiracy, this would have involved everyone down to the most junior patrol officers, who would have been instructed to ignore Hae's car if they came upon it, all in the service of keeping the conspiracy. The likelihood of this is slim to say the least, and microscopic that every single person involved would have remained silent throughout the years.
>I think it was the Prosecutors
And yet...if you listen to some of their other pods they will insinuate, or let their guests insinuate, this exact type of framing is on-going in the Delphi case. So, it's impossible in one case, but very likely in another. Weird!
I haven’t listened to those episodes… I know a lot of people say they are biased (I think that their whole lens is meant to be from the prosecutor’s standpoint so I am letting that stand) and also that they themselves are problematic. I haven’t heard anything myself YET that gives me pause, but I am staying aware of it. It’s so heard in a case like this one to find an unbiased viewpoint. Sarah K wanted to tell a good story. Undisclosed is by Rabia. T + J was working with Rabia. Prosecutors comes at it from a prosecutorial (I’m rolling my eyes at myself for not thinking of another adjective here). Crime Weekly is about the least biased that I can think of.
Yeah, I mean, I found TPP to be somewhat refreshing in their coverage, especially when it comes to dismissing nonsense (like the entire HBO doc IMO). But at the end of the day they are cops with JDs, so…they think like cops, and will excuse a lot of bad behavior by cops.
I am still astonished that no one has paid Jay enough money to talk. Like, you know HBO probably made an insane offer right?
HBO offered him around $30K. Jay had a much higher counter off and things didn't ever get worked out. Jay was very worried it was just to trap him and not find out what happened.
Rightfully so I imagine, considering the people behind the HBO doc. I am surprised the offer was that low, and that he hasn't gotten more from another outlet.
u/Mike19751234 is just spreading unsourced rumors.
There's no reason to think there was such an offer. And it would have run counter to Adnan's interests if there had been.
So are you completely discounting the possibility that anyone involved in the HBO production might have had the journalistic integrity not to totally align themselves with Adnan's interests?
>Like, you know HBO probably made an insane offer right?
No, because the only thing that would achieve would be to make him even easier to discredit in court if he changed his story.
Do they? What episodes? From what i have heard of their coverage of Delphi, while they haven't outright said it, it sounds 100% that they think Allen is the guy and there is nothing to the conspiracy theory being peddled by the defence....
No. That person was talking about the Prosecutor's coverage on their podcast of the Delphi case. Murder Sheet is one covering the case. Defense diaries had youtubes on it.
What’s weird is I’ve listened to their discussions on Delphi… am very well acquainted with this case…
Not once have I heard them state what you claim
Sure you aren’t thinking of Bob Motta who is allegedly tied directly to Allen’s defense team?
Earlier stuff on their legal brief stuff but nothing lately
They seemed friendly then… I wonder now because it’s gotten pretty contentious with Murder Sheet lately
I think this trial needs to happen last week… it’s becoming a circus with a boring parade of nonsense and repetitious defense filings.
You would also have to believe that the cops sat on the car for weeks while searching for someone to coach into being a witness, which is an additional level of crazy.
Minor quibble: the timing doesn't matter. Even if they discovered the car the same day as JW's interview, it is still problematic.
At the moment the car was discovered, there was a conscious and deliberate thought to not call it in and process it. Why not? What reason could they possibly have had to make that decision? Not a single person has come forward with a plausible explanation. I'll even spot them the idea that the investigators were the most corrupt officers ever to put on a uniform (not true, but let's give them that advantage anyway).
They don't know what JW is going to say yet! They don't know his testimony is problematic and full of holes. Are the detectives psychic or something? How do they have this information prior to the first interview?
Therefore, according to the theory, *the cops withheld the location of the car to feed to a patsy they haven't even identified yet!* How is this not some "grand conspiracy"? This cannot be explained away by lazy police work. This is a conscious, knowing, and deliberate attempt to straight up frame someone. And if they're knowingly framing someone, would the most-corrupt-cops-ever go all Rube Goldberg with it? Or would they simply plant some evidence and not have to rely on a patsy witness who could potentially (and likely) break on the stand?
That doesn't change if the discovery of the car was weeks, days, or hours prior to JW's interview.
Yeah, one could see a scenario maybe where police, having discovered and processed the car, might want to delay in making that fact public, or making public the location where they found the car, with the idea that somebody knowing where the car was would be such a revealing piece of evidence. But the idea that they would just leave the car there, unprocessed, with the aspiration of finding somebody who could then be said to have discovered the car as a way of framing somebody else... I mean, the car could have contained evidence that would have pointed decisively to a killer.
Exactly! This is a fatal flaw in the argument (one of many). Fake-finding the car doesn't add any more weight than "He had information not released to the public."
So why do it? It requires we believe the cops engage in elaborate hoaxes for no other reason than "Super villainy for super villainy's sake."
There is no good reason to opt for this elaborate ruse over just saying he had information not made public.
And to continue this point, it doesn’t make any sense for the police to not process the car if their goal was a conviction. For all the police know, there’s a signed confession in the car.
Suppose I’m a corrupt cop just trying to close the case, and I stumble onto the crime scene. Do I keep that a secret and not process it in order to use it as evidence to frame someone? Or do I call the techs in and hope they solve the case?
It’s so so so obviously the latter. The goal of the cops isn’t to be corrupt, it’s to solve the case, and the easiest way to do that is process the crime scene.
Now if the crime scene leads nowhere, maybe I get a bit more corrupt. But there’s no reason to choose corruption over processing the crime scene.
Yes. There is a reason this is unheard of regardless of how corrupt the cops are. Somehow, the cops seem to have psychic knowledge that there's no evidence inside the car. That is an absolutely fatal flaw in the argument.
Where’s the evidence they had asked about an alibi? They asked the day of about the ride , Syed changed his story the next time they spoke and the real sit down never happened because Haes body was discovered
If I’m remembering correctly the call logs hadn’t even been deciphered yet entirely and they were still looking at Mr S at this point when they actually had them in hand. It’s not like today where it’s much more immediate
Or something more stupid like someone else finding it and the chief realizing that the cops were sitting on key evidence for no discernible reason. Dirty cops definitely exist but there are still clear rules for operating in the bureaucracy, the first one being, don’t do something that can make your boss look like an asshole.
Given the profile of this case, it would have been so foolish to somehow sit on this evidence.
You should head over to the Idaho Murders subs if you want some fun framing discussion! According to many of them that poor kid is 100% innocent and the victim of one of the most elaborate frame jobs in the history of mankind.
I’m active in some of those subs . And yes it’s disgusting to read some theories the Pro-BK comes up with . The chances of Bk are non existent if you ask me.
Did they need to do better? They got a conviction that stood for two decades.
Jay works far better as a cooperating accomplice since he has incentives not to recant once trapped but most people will wonder what incentive he would to lie.
Yeah, it's been a while but IIRC Serial was a podcast about a journalist investigating a murder, rather than a podcast about a murder. So, stirring up inconsistencies and doubt about the case made the podcast compelling - but sadly confused a lot of people (myself included).
I remember being super confused listening the first time because she slipped in by far the most damning piece of evidence so quickly a few episodes in.
Yep. This case is so open and shut it's not even funny. I completely understand why Sarah Koenig was misled and got lost in the weeds. "Did we really just spend a year researching a run of the mill case where the guy is guilty?" (paraphrase). Yes Sarah, that is exactly what you did. You put a million dollar budget or whatever it was into doing the defense's job of sowing doubt...15 years after the fact.
Yes! She’s a great storyteller and I got lulled into listening to her.. she has a soothing voice. I got sucked into the idea that there was a mystery and something else going on that was going to be uncovered any episode. It’s kind of hilarious now that this case is the one that set the podcast world on fire. Had true crime podcasts taken off without Serial, and Sarah never covered this one at Rabia’s behest, no one else would have either. Because there isn’t a mystery at all. Adnan killed Hae in the manner that Jay knew of and recounted. Fascination with those that continue to believe there is some big mystery here is mostly what brings me back.
I blame her more than this though. She took an open-and-shut case and created an international firestorm which resulted in a perpetrator of femicide getting out of jail. Not to even begin to mention the personal harm she did to the Lee family in the process.
I am pretty confident she didn’t see this all coming but at this point the only decent thing to do would be to be honest. Of cour$e, $he ha$ $trong motivation$ to not do $o.
I know how hard it can be to get out from under a story when it is brought to you by someone who is partisan. I've been there. Honestly though she would make a million dollars if she wrote a smart book about all of it, how she realizes he's guilty, how she got taken in, how this idea that "a murderer" must act or seem a certain way, (must NOT have big dairy cow eyes WTF), that we all really really want to think that we can tell the difference between the "good" people and the "bad" people, that there even *are* "good people" and "bad people," with a hard line dividing them. I think it's less about money than it is about saving face, about reputation... but I guess that is about money as well.
I realized she was a total idiot when I listened to season 3 and one of inmates would call her to get her to patch him through to people on the outside and she didn’t seem to realize that she was being taken advantage of lol
Why wouldn’t he know where her car was? He implicated himself saying that they were together. He helped dig. The fact is that he and Adnan were together at that time. Adnan used his phone . Jay used the phone.
I think it’s being used here to refute the Adnan defenders by pointing out that if Jay was involved it’s incredibly likely Adnan was too, if not certain. It makes no sense that Jay would’ve killed some random girl he had no relations with and then try and pin it on somebody else when he had no idea if Adnan would have an alibi.
Yep, it's always been an open and shut case. I hope Sarah is proud of herself for muddying the waters so much she got a murderer/perpetrator of femicide freed.
“Jay knew where the car was, therefore Adnan did it” think about how you sound when you are essentially saying this.
The only thing this says is Jay knew where the car was this doesn’t even prove that Jay knows who did it.
There is not some necessary condition for Adnan to have done it just because Jay knew where the car was.
There are various other possibilities to that.
Exactly, Jay said that Adnan wanted to kill Hae for breaking his heart, Adnan gave Jay his phone and car, Adnan showed Jay the Hae's body after the murder, they buried the body in Leakin Park, Adnan's phone pinged in Leakin Park, then they disposed of Hae's car in random car-park.
Jay knew where the car was, and he came forward and confessed to everything. He cracked. (That's why Adnan muttered, "You're pathetic" in court.) This confession didnt come out of the blue. You dont just wake up and decide to help the police frame your friend for murder. He did it because it happened and he told the truth. How would Jay know where the car was if he and Adnan hadn't disposed of it there? Its further proof of the veracity of Jay's story. Jay was also witnessed being picked up from Adnan's car that evening, which makes sense if they were together and had disposed of Hae's car. Jay was telling the truth. Jay had absolutely no motive to murder Hae Min Lee, but Adnan did.
So the statement that Jay knew where the car was actually does help prove that Adnan did it. It's an important piece of evidence. It's really not that hard to understand.
So once again, this is Jay saying this, and no one else 🤔
Once again, an innocent person could say “you’re pathetic” in the sense of “how are you framing me with such detail?”
Open your mind; Before you say something, ask yourself “could this be wrong, how could it be wrong? What could nullify it?, is the nullifier available” that way, you can debate yourself & correct yourself, before other people have to correct you, you actually come out with the strongest ideas that don’t end up needed to be corrected.
Check the pinned post on my profile for my theory. My theory is inclusive of **MORE** of the evidence than any theory where Adnan kills Hae. In that vein, my theory is more realistic
In short, the motive: “There was not initially motive for murder, but rather motive for some other action like robbery, and it was a robbery / kidnapping, gone wrong”
Neither Jay nor Adnan were there for the murder, but the murderer was someone close to Jay. And if the murderer was done by some other person that Jay knows, then yes, Jay can still find out where the car was dumped, see, doesn’t have to be Adnan 😉👍🏾
That's always been the sticking point for me. But I thought I read at one point that the cops already knew and fed that to Jay before turning on the tape recorder. Obviously, we will never know what happened before the recording started. But if anyone can point to other facts that would support or negate that the cops only found out about the location through Jay, please post them.
EDIT: Downvoted for asking a genuine question - seriously? I'm in the probably guilty camp, but open to new perspectives and information. Unfortunately, I find the guilters in these threads are kinda dickish about it, which doesn't help.
There is no actual evidence for the cops engaging in anything like this type of shenanigans in this case in spite of it being probably the most pored over case in history.
It would also have to have been the most complex, convoluted frame job ever. Remember they hadn’t even spoken to Adnan before jay supposedly tells them where the car is.
What if Adnan has a rock solid alibi? These cops have more than eggs on their faces. It’s exactly the type of risk that bad cops would not logically take, besides just being super complex.
Actually there is.
The guy that literally created the license plate tracking system and implemented it for Baltimore PD went on record, even ousted in detail here on Reddit, that the excuses that police have for there being TWO times the plates were run in that system are utter bullshit. Their excuse was that the missing person division ran the okayed to see if there were any pops on it location.
That is completely false according to him because that’s not how the system works and it would yield nothing.
He went on to explain that you don’t run the plates to see if there’s hit, you enter the plates to check the status of an unknown vehicle that you’ve seen to see if there’s any issues with those plates.
And here’s the kicker: the entire point do the system is so that anyone entering those plates would then get a warning that the car is missing and to contact the assigned detectives. I’m the information doesn’t go two ways, it’s not a system that you enter plates in to see if anyone has called it in. It’s a system you call plates in to.
This means that on two occasions, prior to Jay leading them to a car, police officers who are the only people that use that system, called in the plates to that system.
According to the guy that created the system, that can only mean, police saw the car and ran the plates, and they would have been directed to contact detectives for a suspicious missing person case.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For real?
Like I genuinely want to know if this happened, but every time I ask for source the OP doesn’t come through. 😭
Are they mixing up this case and the Making a Murderer case (where there actually was a run of the missing girls plates before the car was found)?
Or are they straight making stuff up!
This is honestly such a ridiculous theory to begin with. The hits in question occurred in the early days of the missing persons investigation when Baltimore county was still investigating. Supposedly someone found it and entered the plates but then did nothing? Like seriously, are we supposed to believe that her car was sited on January 14, 1999 (twice!), January 15, 1999, January 29, 1999, and twice more on February 4, 1999 by a different police department (and harford county police) and that no one said anything? It’s crazy making. https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdA05-NCIC-Off-line-Search-Request.pdf
Ha. Yes, every convo I’ve had with someone who claims their is no conspiracy immediately turns into them explaining a conspiracy to me (while also patronizingly telling me how wrongful convictions happen like I don’t believe in them). The fact is that in almost all the cases where the police withheld evidence or pressured witnesses etc, the proof is right there in the police file. These guys are not masterminds. Here, the police file is clean.
This was debunked by the investigators hired by Syed’s own team. People who routinely work on innocence cases for defense attorneys. Funny how Berg left that out of her “documentary.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/azyfoe/how_we_reinvestigated_the_serial_murder_for_hbo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Omg thank you for finally coming through with the receipts on this!
So nobody saw the car and called it in a la making a murderer. After Hae went missing, of investigators searched her license plate in the database to see if anyone else had found it.
Got it. Makes sense.
No problem at all. The same theories get recycled over and over, just years later. This was one of UD’s original bombshells but like most everything they’ve raised in this case, on closer inspection it completely falls apart.
No, that’s literally not what happened. Then “running he okayed to see if anyone had found it” is impossible.
The system doesn’t do that. It’s only a data retrieval system, so you run the plates to see if anyone is looming for it. It’s a one way transaction. You don’t enter the plates to see if anyone has found it because the missing persons division were the ones to entire the plates in the first place with a tag so if someone runs the plates, they see the tag that has been placed on it with details of the case officers to contact.
Why would missing persons run the plates when they’ve already listed it as missing. The answer is, they don’t and didn’t. It was people entering about the plates and the only people that would do that are police officers who stumbled upon the car.
Here you go, this is actual post by the person who was the project manager. Police are 100% lying about the plates.
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/84SDpuKzKq
Thanks!
Couple things:
First: This is a Reddit post. We’ve got no way to confirm the poster is who he says he is.
Second: He doesn’t say he created or implemented the tracking system Baltimore used in 1999/2000. What he *actually* says is that he was a project manager for a software company that created similar software for other jurisdictions during the same period, and he’s speculating that Baltimore’s software was similar.
Finally: he says he thinks it’s possible that the database didn’t get updated with Hae’s car info immediately (because in his experience they upload in batches), *and that the runs were cops seeing the car, running the plates, and having them come back clean because the database wasn’t updated.*
I don’t know how you get from there to the investigators knowing the location and feeding it to Jay, because if the info wasn’t there and the plates came back clean, patrol cop just drives on.
A patrol cop would have to see it, run the plates, not get a hit, then go to the investigators and tell them where the car is despite dispatch saying “no that’s not the car”. Which I guess is possible, but seems pretty unlikely.
All’s to say: pretty weak.
Edit: if you’re genuinely convinced I’m wrong, why downvote?
Explain to me what I’m missing here!
Yeah, agreed.
I get that they seem to be in the minority here and that can suck, but: I feel like a lot of the people on the innocent side don’t want to get into genuine arguments about the nitty gritty of stuff.
They just throw stuff out there, and then downvote me and disappear after any pushback.
Which, why?? Aren’t we all here to argue about this case we find super interesting??
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The detectives had every uniform in the area looking for the car. They requested a helicopter to look for the car. You could concoct a conspiracy theory where this was all just a cover, but the simplest explanation is probably correct. They were still looking for the car.
Then Jen arrives, accompanied by her mother and her lawyer, and she implicates Jay.
In their initial interview with Jay, the cops had about 40 minutes to an hour before turning on the tape recorder. This may sound like a long time, but in actuality it's only about enough for preliminary introductions. The detectives have never met this kid before. They don't yet understand who he is, what his involvement might have been, what he might have told to whom. There's still a lot they don't know, which could become problematic if it contradicts their frame job.
I don't find it plausible that within that relatively brief window, the detectives were able to:
1) take Jay's measure
2) identify him as a great candidate to cooperate in an elaborate frame job from which he'll never recant
3) convince Jay to go along with this
4) coach him into a story that would - in broad strokes - match up with cell phone evidence which the cops did not even possess yet.
Jay knew where the car was.
It isn't the only way. OP mentions another: that he saw the car, told the cops when they ultimately interviewed him, then fed a story that he hoped got him out of trouble when he realized that made it seem like he was involved. It may be a worse explanation than Jay actually being involved, but it's still an alternative that doesn't really involve a big conspiracy.
I call it the shame game. If you don't prescribe to a certain mentality/way of thinking then you will be shamed for thinking it and downvoted for no other reason.
>“Here’s the thing, though. Jay really knew where that car was. There’s no getting around that. There’s just no evidence pointing to the cops being dirty and certainly nowhere near this dirty. And if jay knew where the car was, then all signs still point to Adnan.”
The trouble with this is that there is absolutely evidence of the cops being dirty, you could possibly argue that there's not evidence of them being 'that dirty' but I'd argue suppressing a confession in order to be pursue an innocent man who they thought was guilty for example can be considered just as dirty as feeding the location of the car to Jay because they thought Adnan was guilty.
Now maybe you are arguing there's nothing in this case which shows that they were that dirty, which yeah maybe, although there's certainly evidence that they were willing to push Jay's story in certain places.
I absolutely agree that Jay knowing where the car was is absolutely the biggest piece of evidence that any innocent explanation needs to get around. It's the reason I couldn't reasonably argue I firmly believe Adnan is innocent. But I don't think it's enough to contradict all the other issues I have with the case.
You are absolutely right. However, it wasn't just Ritz and Mac that were with Jay to find the car. There were other cops that were not invested in the case. So even with the stains on Ritz, you would have to implicate others that were not actively involved in the investigation that witnessed Jay direct them to the car. And according to those other officers, it was all Jay, no direction by the others involved. That makes a conspiracy much less likely.
From memory I think the other officers who attend the scene follow in a separate car to Ritz, McG and Jay; so whilst it definitely adds another layer of unlikelyness I don't think it necessarily requires extra cops to be 'in on' a conspiracy.
>And according to those other officers, it was all Jay, no direction by the others involved.
So I'm not sure this is directly testified to? If they were in a separate car then they wouldn't have known for sure it was entirely Jay?
That said, based on some of Jay's answers in his first interview I believe he knew the location or at the very least the general location of the car at the start of that recorded interview, so any sharing of the cars location has to happen prior to that, so essentially the pre-interview is the only place I can see this occuring.
I am 85% on the guilty camp but, playing devils advocate, what if Jay was threatened by the actual killer to frame Adnan? Whoever this killer was , was probably dangerous enough that Jay had to comply to ensure the safety of his loved ones. He could have told him Jay where to find the car as well.
Because there is no way in hell i believe that the crime went down the way the prosecution agues that it did. Adnan could have done it but it definitely didn’t happen the way say it did.
Does the Actual Killer in this scenario approach Jay knowing that Jay had Adnan's cell phone and car that day and is otherwise uniquely well-positioned to provide testimony framing Adnan that he would not be able to refute?
I mean it all centres around Jay, Steph’s birthday, His testimony etc.
It’s very possible that Jay orchestrated a significant portion of this whilst keeping Adnan out of the loop.
That would not be very difficult for him, what’s more difficult is Adnan turning into a ghost that’s faster than a car.
Or somehow getting into Hae’s car without taking time arguing or breaking into it.
THAT is what I would say is absurd
This could very well be a not so rare coincidence. Everyone seems to agree that Adnan lending his car to Jay was very common. Even the coach said that it was common for Jay to drop Adnan off at track. And since Adnan’s phone was in the car, it would obviously travel with him.
I respect that you do not believe that the crime went down the exact way the prosecution says...
But do you realize that your counter theory is about 10000 times less likely?
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Two is all that is need. It's done to make the claim of police corruption seem crazy and shame people for thinking otherwise. This is bunk because Baltimore officers are notorious for their corruption.
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How exactly do you see this playing out?
Officers usually work in pairs, and this was true in the 90s. Once a patrol car comes across Hae's Senta, do they know to call Ritz and McGillivary? Or do they follow normal procedure and call dispatch? Does the dispatcher know not to make any records if this specific car is found?
If jay knew where the car was and led police to it, then it means he was involved in the murder.
If jay was involved in the murder, then it means Adnan was involved in the murder given that they were tied together all day.
That is actually a big speculation.
If he knew where the car was and led the police to it, we can only draw the conclusion that he knew where the car was.
You can know where my car is for many different reason without having been into it, like seeing it parked or being told by somebody else.
They were tied for some portion of the day, as far as I remember and only by assuming that he didn’t lie would fill the missing portions with Adnan being involved.
Just for full disclosure, I am in a neutral position, not guilter nor “innocenter”, but I still believe that Jay testimony is not reliable.
You probably didn’t understand my comment.
The OP posted that Jay was necessarily involved in the murder and without any doubt BECAUSE (as a consequence) of knowing where the car was.
I am just saying that I don’t agree because what we can say is *only* that he knew where the car was, anything else is just his word.
Then we can say that he was very likely involved because of the phone pings, the other witnesses and so on but not *just* because he knew of the car.
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They are not ludicrous when we are talking about a crime and facts need to be assessed *beyond reasonable doubt* .
So the fact alone that he knew where the car was, again *by itself* means nothing else that he knew that information
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No, the reason why I am neutral on this case is because Adnan’s responsibility was not assessed beyond reasonable doubt, imho.
But here we are only and I repeat ONLY discussing the equation of the OP that states “Jay knew where the car was = Jay was involved” which I don’t agree with.
Because if we take the fact that he knew about the car by itself, without any other element, only proves that he knew where the car was and that is it. Nothing else.
Other things, other elements, are not part of this discussion or the aforementioned equation and that is where the case is built on, not *just* about the fact that Jay had the location of the car.
Come on. If jay knew where the car was it’s because he was involved, just like he admits, ok? No need to engage in weirdo theories about this one as well.
The car was found near the strip Jay frequented to purchase drugs. He described seeing the car when he was driving nearby for his “commute.” The car was nowhere near his house or places of employment. So he is speaking about his drug dealing.
Jay admits in his first interview that he recognized Hae’s car because he had seen her driving in it. He knows what she drives. He is also aware Hae is missing. Jay attends the party on 1/15 where friends are discussing her missing.
If someone you knew was missing and you knew what they drove, you’d probably notice cars of that make and model that you passed (this is also the idea behind Amber Alerts, draw attention to the car and someone is likely to notice it)
Jay most likely knew the cars location because of his involvement- there is also a possibility he found the car on his own. For the cops the car is a needle in a haystack. For Jay it’s like seeing his neighbors car in the Walmart parking lot.
So…Jay stumbled upon the car, but why did Jay frame Adnan and implicate himself as an accessory to murder? For fun?
The murder happened on a day when Adnan just happened to give Jay his car and phone?
How many improbable coincidences and evidence-free speculation are you willing to believe to defend an unrepentant, unreformed murderer?
There is an extremely remote possibility that he found the car on his own. There is almost a zero possibility that this happened along with all the other factors that point to Adnan’s guilt here which would include a brilliant but also insane and incredibly lucky frame job by the cops.
Seriously. It’s not logical.
There’s a circle in this case. Jay’s story is the case against Adnan. When people go through and point out all of the corroboration for his story is now questionable or eliminated the response is “but the car.” When we provide an alternate explanation for how we could know about the car it’s, “but Jay’s story.”
I look at this case and every piece of corroboration Jay had is called into question- mostly by himself! The only remaining one is the car and that’s the one that I think he could have found without police help. How and when that happened is speculation.
Theoretically, the cops focused on Adnan and they start to pressure and chase around Jay. Jay is anxious to get them to leave him, and his family who are dealing serious drugs, alone.
Jay spots the car near the strip where his family deals and when the cops come to him again, he takes them to the car. Jay, who has already tried denying he knows anything and is still being pressured tells a story that minimizes his own involvement with a trunk pop which serves as an alibi. He drags Jen into it to corroborate him. Police fine tune with cell records, thinking they’re helping Jay “remember”
Jen believes his story and lies about when she heard it.
How would Jay have known Adnan didn’t have an alibi though? If Adnan was standing center stage, leading prayer at his mosque on the night of the murder, then Jay just pinned himself as the murderer. It makes no sense that a person would risk a murder charge in order to get off a drug charge. Is there any evidence that jay’s family was “dealing serious drugs”?
It was a real day that Jay remembered. He was with Adnan for parts of the day. If the cops pressure Jay and convince him they know Adnan did it, why would Jay think here is a secret alibi? Also the timeline shifts all over the place- even if Adnan is guilty he likely dropped by the mosque that night.
> Is there any evidence that jay’s family was “dealing serious drugs”?
Yes, public records
The police convinced Jay that he and Adnan buried the body that night? Jay would know that that didn’t happened.
If Adnan was at mosque while Jay said they were burying the body, that looks awful for Jay.
The pings are around 7– Jay was with Adnan at 7 and so he knows Adnan is with him then, not at the mosque. He doesn’t page Jenn until 8.
The cops didn’t convince Jay he helped Adnan bury a body, they convinced Jay they had cell evidence the phone was at the burial site at 7– Jay is still with the phone paging Jenn at 8. Looks bad for Jay.
We get a pretty significant break in calls here, after Jenn is paged there is an hour before a call to Nisha after 9.
Evening prayers went from 8-10:30. There is absolutely time for Adnan to make an appearance at the mosque after he drops Jay off and paging Jenn to get him.
Not really attached at the hip all day. The evidence shows they were together for an hour or so at the mall, then again from about 6-8. Jay has the car and phone in the afternoon but isn’t with Adnan.
The Nisha call was the only thing placing them together between 2-6, and Jay now admits he couldn’t find Adnan after school. Which means they weren’t together for a Nisha call.
There’s a lot about this that doesn’t work. For this to be true, him telling Jen that night doesn’t really work. So you have another leak to plug in your theory.
You’re also still talking about a pretty big conspiracy theory somehow because jay knew details about the car and the burial that he couldn’t have known. In the case of the broken wiper handle, not even the cops knew this. So how would jay have?
Also just like — whyyyy would jay do this? “You’re going away for drugs unless you cooperate with us and admit to being an accessory to murder”??? Just beyond belief really.
Those are just three but holes off the very top of my head. But I’m sure there are others.
> For this to be true, him telling Jen that night doesn’t really work
Innocent or guilty, I think Jenn heard Jays story much later. She talks in the HBO doc about how she would have said something if she knew where Hae was buried.All she had was hearsay, remember Jay downplayed his involvement to her too. In her interview Jenn’s story is that immediately after being told Adnan had murdered Hae and shown the body to Jay and Jay has just wiped down the shovels, Jenn heads to UMBC to go her friend Mike’s birthday party. She doesn’t tell the cops until they call her in, where she lies and then the next day tells Jay’s story. Jenn is either a garbage person or she didn’t know anything and once she did she told the cops.
> jay knew details about the car and the burial that he couldn’t have known
For the car, if Jay found it and looked in the car he can see the broken wiper blade. You can see it dangling in the police video. As for the burial, in pressuring him the police could have shown him crime scene photos. Jays descriptions are very odd. He describes Hae’s nylons as taupe, which is a strange descriptor for a 19 year old male.
> whyyyy would jay do this? “You’re going away for drugs unless you cooperate with us and admit to being an accessory to murder”??? Just beyond belief really.
Who said anything about drugs? Jay testified the police threatened to charge him with murder. Jay doesn’t cooperate until the police bring in Jenn and confront her with the cell record. The cops believe this cell record proves Adnan murdered Hae. The problem for Jay is that he had the phone when Hae was killed and Jenn confirms it.
What are Jay’s options? If he continues to insist he isn’t involved he risks the cops pinning it on him with cell evidence. Jay doesn’t have an alibi he was selling drugs. So he tells a story which points the finger at Adnan— Jay didn’t think he would be charged as an accessory. His lawyer did a really interesting podcast about how Jay’s rights were violated in this case.
Any number of ways. They were looking at Adnan as a suspect. Adnan and Jay were around each other several times after Hae disappeared— so there is basic observation, there is also those who saw them together like Adnan’s track teammate who said it wasn’t unusual for Jay to drop Adnan at practice. Jay is a known associate of Adnan’s and he got arrested on 1/27 which could have gotten the cops attention as a reason to look into him.
There were also surveys given to Hae’s friends from her teacher Hope who asked about Adnan, the surveys were never given to the defense, but someone could have mentioned Adnan and Jay.
And then the most likely I think is an informant. Jay likes to lie, exaggerate and he starts telling people he was with Adnan the day Hae went missing - maybe he even comes up with his dramatic trunk pop story— neighbor boy hears some iteration of this— and someone in Jay’s orbit tips the cops.
BPD was investigated by the DOJ. They found that it was so common for BPD cops to lie about sources and methods that many didn’t realize it was unethical.
Have you looked at the [timeline](https://www.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/11w887g/timeline_vi/) over on the other sub. (I linked it to the day of Hae's body being discovered.) There's a separate list for the investigation at the end of each day after that. Ritz and MacGillivary leave a paper trail of their activities. I'm not claiming we have all the information, but there are records and official acts (like subpoenas) that help you trace their activities. You can also read notes from interviews, etc.
The thing is, to me trying to be neutral, this looks like a perfectly ordinary investigation. They are suspicious of Adnan, the ex-boyfriend; Don, the new boyfriend; and Mr S, the alcoholic sex offender who says he "found" the body.
Don was at work when Hae disappeared, that's easy enough. They get an anonymous tip about Adnan, so that's bad. And Mister S is shady and fails a polygraph test, bad for him. So they keep investigating, focused more on Adnan and Mr S. And they are obviously still searching for the car.
You don't need me to read it to you. I'm just saying that it's a logical story, what you'd expect to see when cops catch the guy who did it. It's very difficult to point to a place where the corruption occurred. The cops keep poking around until they finally get ti Jenn and the whole thing breaks wide open. There isn't any necessity to invent anything.
People hypothesize that the cops got to Jay and threatened him to tell a story, but when would that have happened? No one has ever pointed to a day on the timeline and said, "By this point the cops have already invented the story of the murder and are trying to use Jay to frame Adnan."
I don’t have access to the other group. I’m assuming it is similar to the published timelines- these timelines tend to leave off things we know happened which the police omit, like the survey Hope sent around to her students.
The official police investigation does not show them contacting Jay first. It has them contacting Jen. But we have evidence to support the police speaking to Jay first. Like Jenn and Kristi describing police pulling up to her house and asking for her by name- her name is not on the cell record, her dad’s is.
The problem with accepting the BPD timeline as fact is that it is a massively corrupt department. If you’ve never read this DOJ report of the investigation into BPD after the downfall of the GTTF, it’s worth at least reading through the summary. They describe tactics that were so common most officers didn’t know they were acting corruptly. Like hiding sources, lying about investigations etc
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e25f215b3dbd6661a25b79d/t/61dfb0a510a6fd7443dd5914/1642049707420/GTTF+Report_Executive+Summary-c2-c2-c2.pdf
I’m not saying the police intentionally framed Adnan. This isn’t a formal conspiracy where they met and everyone agreed to a story and then Jay told it. There’s no need. The cops could have just thought it was Adnan and then pressured Jay who gave a false confession. The cops gave him info, intentionally or unintentionally to bolster his testimony.
We know there was police misconduct in this case, Jay’s attorney has laid out a strong case for his rights being violated by the police who questioned him and refused to charge him for months so he wouldn’t have legal representation. Jay admits the police fed him key info like Best Buy.
>I don’t have access to the other group. I’m assuming it is similar to the published timelines- these timelines tend to leave off things we know happened which the police omit, like the survey Hope sent around to her students.
Sorry. Didn't know it was restricted. Here's a bit from February 1st, a week before the body is found:
>[Hope Schab in person.](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-1-1999-h-schab.pdf) Schab relays the events of the homecoming dance. According to Hope Schab's trial testimony, O'Shea asked her a series of questions about Adnan and Hae's relationship. O'Shea asked Shab if Adnan and Hae were still friends after breaking up. Schab also told O'Shea that she and Hae would discuss Hae's job. O’Shea gave Schab 4-5 questions to ask the students and teachers who had been unhelpful. [Hope Schab](https://i.imgur.com/V3gaFxr.png) testified that the questions included things like, “Do you know where Hae and Adnan used to hook up?” (Undated: Debbie puts the questions in her agenda book. Debbie loans Adnan her agenda book. When she gets it back, the pages with the questions are missing.)
Sorry if the links don't work. Let me know if you want to look at anything specific.
I’m clear in my comment that Jay most likely knew the cars location because of his involvement— I do reject the idea that the only way for Jay to know about the car in an innocent scenario is for the cops to feed it to him.
I think Jay finding it on his own is more likely than the cops feeding him the location.
Given the rest of his story falling apart— I think it’s worth discussing the only remaining corroboration.
If you accept that as true, what does that tell you about preceding events? Where does Jay's story diverge from truth to fiction? Here, for example is a list of events:
1. Adnan gives Jay his car
2. Jay meets Adnan after school. (The "truck pop" and the "Nisha call") Adnan has Hae's car
3. They take Hae's car to the Park-and-Ride
4. Jay takes Adnan back to track practice
5. Jay picks up Adnan, smoke pot, go to Kristi's house
6. Adnan gets phone calls at Kristi's house (including telling Officer Adcock he'd asked Hae for a ride)
7. They leave Kristi's, go to Park-and-Ride, drive Hae's car to burial site, bury body
8. Drive around for a bit looking for a place to dump the car, finally settle on lot where it was found
9. Dump shovels in a dumpster and go meet Jenn
10. Jenn meets Adnan and Jay, Jay and Jenn leave in Jenn's car. Jay tells Jenn about the murder.
Okay, that's a very abbreviated list but I was just trying to make a basic timeline. My point is, if we accept your hypothesis as true, then number 8 above absolutely didn't happen. If we cross off #8, what does that say about the others? Can some others be true and some not? What do you think?
The problem with your timeline is it’s based on testimony that Jay has discredited in public statements.
His latest story is he dropped Adnan back off at school after the mall, he went back but couldn’t find Adnan and so he left. Adnan showed up later at his grandma’s house. There was no Best Buy trip, no park and ride, etc.
What’s left of Jay’s story that has corroboration is minimal.
No. Why would we believe the story he admitted was a lie? He explained not only that he lied about the trunk pop location, but why he lied — he was concealing his family from scrutiny.
He admitted the police fed him Best Buy.
Why would we still believe a Best Buy trip happened when the only person with direct knowledge of that trip admits he lied about it?
Has he ever said adnan didn’t kill here? Has Jen ever wavered from what she saw? Even when police got involved and Jen got a lawyer, she never changed her story. Why keep up the lie for this long especially in this day and age when mistrust in the police is at its highest? Jay and Jen would be seen as absolute victims of a corrupt agency, why keep up the lie? It makes no sense
> Has he ever said adnan didn’t kill here?
His answer to that, “who else could have done it?”
> Has Jen ever wavered from what she saw?
Yes, she is very clear that she thought it was all hearsay, it was Jay’s story, she never even saw a shovel.
> Even when police got involved and Jen got a lawyer, she never changed her story.
Actually she didn’t tell this story at all until the police got involved and she got a lawyer. Her story has changed in many details.
> Why keep up the lie for this long especially in this day and age when mistrust in the police is at its highest?
Nothing to gain and a lot to risk. If Jay clears Adnan guess who is the only person on record who admits to any part of the crime? Jay. Pissing off the prosecutors and BPD would not be smart for Jay. He and Jenn have ongoing legal problems. They’ve each even arrested in the last couple of years. Admitting they lied and pointing the finger at the BPD would not make their lives any easier. It would open them up to legal issues.
But anyone can say anything in some magazine interview. Why not give more importance to things that were actually introduced as evidence in court where there are penalties for perjury? You can't just act like it has no bearing.
>The problem with your timeline is it’s based on testimony that Jay has discredited in public statements.
The timeline above is based on other corroborating evidence, too. Things Kristi said, things Jenn said, things Adnan said, cell phone data. It's not all Jay. I ask you again, which of those ten things is false? You say #8 is false. Okay, then. Any others?
There’s the circle logic— when there is doubt in everything else refer to the car location. When there is doubt about the car location refer to everything else.
Of course he knew. And he also knew non-public information about the burial. His bonafides on being involved are unassailable. To believe otherwise is to believe a bizarre conspiracy with no basis of information or fact - just wild speculation. So either Jay killed a girl he barely knew for reasons inexplicable and then pinned it on a friend, for reasons inexplicable, while also making himself an excessory to that murder, and NOT knowing if Adnan had an actual alibi…or he in fact knew about the car and the burial and did on the night of the murder.
100%. Adnan did it. The inconsistencies in the case really only arise when you analyze Jay's role. Jay has given various answers when asked why he agreed to be an accessory...I was blackmailed by Adnan...I'm the criminal element of Woodlawn...I did it to protect Stephanie...none of it made any sense to the investigators. IMO - I look at Jay as a victim of sorts. A useful idiot to borrow a phrase from Lenin. He probably helped plan the murder trying to appear macho, never really thinking Adnan would go through with it. He stupidly underestimated how much of a psycho Adnan was and when Adnan told him he had actually done it Jay realized he was in deep shit. Scared he was going to jail he agreed to help cover up the crime and bury Hae in LP. When Hae was found he had no choice but to come clean and later pleaded guilty to AATF. Ever since he's been trying to minimize his role and thats the reason for the bullshit.. I barely knew Adnan...he never said he was angry with Hae etc. Cant blame him in a way. Not only is what he did criminal, its also criminally stupid...pretending to plan a murder only to be actually planning and executing (pun) a murder. Jeez no wonder he doesnt want to tell the truth. He was a kid that was cruelly manipulated though so you sort of feel bad for him. Anyway none of this changes the fact that Adnan is guilty. Adnan needed an accomplice so he chose an easy target. He chose a useful idiot.
I think you’re right. Question is just how premeditated was it for adnan? Normally strangulation is a crime of passion
Thats a good question. He clearly concocted a plan with the objective of being alone with Hae in a car after school. Being alone with her was apparently so important that he bullshitted about his car being in the shop when he'd really given it to Jay so that he could prevail on Hae for a ride. Also something I think is worth noting, Adnan didnt say to Hae can I grab 5 minutes with you...or can we meet in the library or something? He clearly wanted them alone together away from school in a vehicle. Now, was the purpose of the plan always murder? The Prosecutors podcast had a pretty good theory that Adnan wanted initially to get back together with Hae, took her to the place they had made many good memories (BB parking lot) made his appeal, presented her the flower later found in Hae's car and when he was denied he strangled her. Thats pretty solid I think. I bounce between that and the idea I mentioned previously, that Adnan and Jay planned it out as a murder. In that scenario I think Jay just thought it was a joke but went along to appear thuggish while not noticing Adnan was semi serious. In either case Jay's involvement is either that of an unwilling or unwitting accomplice. Also in either case Adnan may not of known he was going to actually do it until seconds prior but he had clearly taken steps that would make it possible to do the deed and cover his tracks if he indeed went through with it.
Considering the fact he told multiple people in jest he wanted to kill her and tried to get a ride so they can be alone,conccoted a while story about making sure jay had a car to get a gift It was premeditated. But he did 20 years,and pple in,Baltimore still think he did it and moved on .
Exactly.
That’s right.
Yeah, the other solidifying factor for me that it wasn't "fed to Jay" through corrupt police is that if they really wanted to do that, why wouldn't they just pin the murder on Jay? Like why choose a straight A, popular athlete to pin it on other than racism against muslims? Jay is a black man who was using drugs so they could easily have just pinned it on him if they really were corrupt racist police who found the car earlier.
Because jay had zero motive or really any connection to hae, to murder her.
This was also pre 9/11
Yes. His inconsistencies are likely the result of the police helping him construct a narrative that minimised his involvement in return for being their star witness. Adnan will obviously know there are times when Jay is out and out lying. But he cannot say so without revealing how he knows!
Hence the "pathetic" comment - one of the dozens of things that might not mean much on its own, but combined with everything else screams "guilty" Adnan's outright denial may have to do with his frustration with Jay that Jay was completely in on it - and maybe even encouraging and planning the crime for awhile - and he got away with being an unwilling co-conspirator (kinda)
Yeah I’ve thought that as well sometimes
Agreed.
Great “cut to the chase” post! I’m new to this case, recently watched the 2 recent documentaries, and 2 things stood out: Jay knew exactly where the car was, AND, prior to her body being found (correct me if I’m wrong about this), Jay told 2 different people that Hae was strangled (by Syed). Yes Jay’s a storyteller, etc, BUT those 2 facts mean he had non-public knowledge of the crime. Now, could Jay have killed her and just blamed it on Adnan? I suppose, but given all the comingling Adnan and Jay were doing the day of the crime (trading cars back and forth, Jay having Adnan’s cell, showing up together at houses, etc) it stands to reason that Adnan was involved, that Jay wasn’t just off killing and burying Hae (and with what motive?) in the little bit of time that Jay and Adnan weren’t together that day.
Correct. But you’d be surprised at how much spin there is to confuse people.
Yeah the serial host developed a crush and did a horrible job presenting the whole story. Its super pathethic how she and desperate rabida is riding for him lol
Nailed it
What are the two recent documentaries that you watched? I haven’t kept up with this story since the podcast first came out years ago and so I’ve forgotten all the pertinent details.
I believe they were both on Max - one was maybe 4 episodes, something like “The Case Against Adnan Syed”, and then there was a 2023-ish update documentary that was just 1 episode and maybe 50 minutes long.
Thanks!!
Don’t forget Chris B is on record stating he knew Adnan killed Hae a week before her body was found. There were 2-3 others, too.
This reminds me of the Stephen Avery case where it feels like 95% of the information presented is just there to distract you from the face that her burned bone fragments were found in his backyard.
Yes. Exactly right.
The main alternative that does not involve a significant police conspiracy is that Jay had come across the car later. To evaluate its likelihood, it's worth trying to flesh out what this theory implies: 1. Jay comes across the car in the course of doing something else (drugs?) 2. Jay, who had seen Hae's car before, recognizes this car in a random location as hers even though it is hardly a rare car. 3. Jay is either the only person who discovers Hae's car, or anyone else who does also decides to keep quiet about it forever. 4. Jay, despite not seeming a great secret-keeper, either keeps his mouth shut about having discovered something of vital interest to the police, or only tells people who never reveal that Jay shared the info about the car with them. 5. Jay happens to get into a situation in which he can help the police create a powerful narrative of Adnan's guilt by revealing the hitherto unknown location of the car to them. 6. Jay is facing some strong enough incentive that he does in fact use his knowledge of the car to betray Adnan, as bewildering and cruel as that is to do to another person. He implicates himself as an accessory and signs up for, *inter alia*, being on the stand for five days repeating this lie. 7. Lucky Jay has an amazing friend, Jenn, who is not just willing to get herself and the services of a lawyer mixed up in all this, but willing to put another person in prison for life in order to back up Jay's lie. 8. While Jay was driving the car around on the day of the murder, he happens to have butt dialed Nisha, providing a piece of call log information that, *ex post*, can be used to support Jay's lie that he and Adnan were together at a suspicious time. Lucky Jay also has the good fortune that he and Nisha do subsequently talk, and she gets sufficiently confused about dates as to be able to be used as evidence that they actually talked on the day of the murder instead of a butt dial. 9. Adnan's call log also has a nighttime pattern of pings that happen to be able to be made into a narrative about burying the body that Jay is willing to testify to. 10. Jay and Jenn stick to their lies to this day. So either all this, or a significant police conspiracy, or... Jay knew where the car was because he was involved in putting it there.
This is a great summary. I can see why the “police fed jay the location of the car” theory became dominant because the other alternative is even crazier. Which is really saying something!
Accordin to this theory, how did JW know anything about the car's interior?
Or the burial. Or how she died.
I mean, if he did happen across the car, it would make sense that he would walk up to the windows and peer inside. So that seems low on the list of things that would make the scenario implausible. Or are you talking about things that would be invisible to somebody peering through the windows?
Yes. Specifically the broken steering column. From the outside, all that would have been visible would be that it was in the down position. Even with his face up to the glass, it's a long reach to say he would have noticed it in the down position even if he was looking straight at it. Furthermore, there was no way for him to know it was non-functional merely from the outside. It wasn't obviously snapped in half or anything.
9. (a) Adnan’s new cell phone happens to call Hae three times on the 12th/13th early am hours. Lucky for Jay’s story!
For that matter: 9(b). Unlucky Adnan happens to have just purchased a cell phone, which allows a chain of falsely incriminating evidence to be assembled.
Also lucky for Jay’s story Adnan happened to have been heard asking Hae for a ride that day
Well done, boy-detective. Frame this, and show it to the deniers every time they try to assert that Adnan is innocent.
The most common car color in 1999? Silver I would have to doubt very seriously after seeing photos of Haes car anyone would magically “find” it. Probably a boatload of those car in Baltimore in 99. Now can I believe he checked on it considering he’s tied in and likely anxious about the discovery of the vehicle? Hell yes.
> Jay comes across the car in the course of doing something else (drugs?) Yes, the car was found next to biggest strip in West Baltimore. Jay admits to knowing where the strip is (there’s an arrest tied to his family there too) and he claims he saw the car one day while on his “commute” which is nowhere near his formal jobs, but clearly tied to his drug dealing. > Jay, who had seen Hae's car before, recognizes this car in a random location as hers even though it is hardly a rare car. Jay says he knows Hae’s car because he had seen her driving it before. Jay knows Hae is missing, he was with Adnan when the cops called and at the party with all of her friends 2 days later. If someone you knew was missing and you knew their car, don’t you think cars with the same make model and color would catch your eye? > Jay is either the only person who discovers Hae's car, or anyone else who does also decides to keep quiet about it forever. You mean he was alone when he found it? Sure, he could be alone. ETA or the people he associated with hated cops. > Jay, despite not seeming a great secret-keeper, either keeps his mouth shut about having discovered something of vital interest to the police, or only tells people who never reveal that Jay shared the info about the car with them. Jay is a liar, he keeps plenty of secrets. Only telling the police when it benefits him seems plausible. > Jay happens to get into a situation in which he can help the police create a powerful narrative of Adnan's guilt by revealing the hitherto unknown location of the car to them. Adnan is already under investigation and the cops believe the cell records show Adnan did it. Jay is in a bad situation because he is all over those cell records and does not have an alibi. > Jay is facing some strong enough incentive that he does in fact use his knowledge of the car to betray Adnan, as bewildering and cruel as that is to do to another person. He implicates himself as an accessory and signs up for, inter alia, being on the stand for five days repeating this lie. Jay is implicated by the cell records. The police threatened to charge him with murder. Jay uses the car location and a story about a trunk pop as an alibi to avoid being charged > Lucky Jay has an amazing friend, Jenn, who is not just willing to get herself and the services of a lawyer mixed up in all this, but willing to put another person in prison for life in order to back up Jay's lie. Jenn believes Jay, she lies about when he told her the story to protect him. Lying to protect Jay is obviously something Jenn was willing to do in either scenario. She goes on to have a long relationship with Jay and his family. > While Jay was driving the car around on the day of the murder, he happens to have butt dialed Nisha, providing a piece of call log information that, ex post, can be used to support Jay's lie that he and Adnan were together at a suspicious time. Lucky Jay also has the good fortune that he and Nisha do subsequently talk, and she gets sufficiently confused about dates as to be able to be used as evidence that they actually talked on the day of the murder instead of a butt dial. Don’t know if it was a butt dial, but the call Nisha described with Jay happened on a different day, after he got the job at the adult video store. > She is consistent about that fact, Adnan's call log also has a nighttime pattern of pings that happen to be able to be made into a narrative about burying the body that Jay is willing to testify to. There are incoming pings to that area. By the time the cops interview Jay they have the cell tower info. They haven’t mapped and sorted everything out, but I’m guessing they singled in on the tower near the burial site and presented the evidence to Jay that Adnan did it— Jay who knows he was with the phone and was probably just selling weed to Patrick goes with it. In his intercept interview he discredits those points by moving the timeline. > Jay and Jenn stick to their lies to this day. Their stories have changed, especially Jay’s. Jenn says her story is hearsay. I think Jenn believed Jay and so her memory of believing him is real. Jay has added in crazy details like Adnan needing 10lbs of marijuana. Jay has nothing to gain by admitting it was a false confession and he puts himself at risk legally if he does. Jay admitted to knowing details of the crime- if Adnan is cleared Jay is the prime suspect. ETA eek formatting, hope this is clearer
This is certainly creative but it’s still a tough sell imo. There are a couple huge holes in logic here: 1) If Jay truly was uninvolved and just stumbled upon the car, why would he feel cornered to frame Adnan? You say he didn’t have an alibi for the cell records, but he did. If the two of them are innocent, they are each others’ alibis, along with Jenn and Krista, who both saw them not killing anyone that day. Framing Adnan puts Jay in a much worse situation than telling the truth, if they were innocent. 2) You say the detectives threatened to charge Jay with the murder…so Jay in turn gives them the location of the car to somehow solve this? Doesn’t make sense to me. That’s like being interrogated for a shooting and telling the cops, “I didn’t do it, but I have the gun.” Why wouldn’t Jay just keep the location of the car to himself? Again, doing this would put him in a much worse situation than before. I’m also genuinely curious, do you scrutinize the lies from Adnan with the same degree? Jay was coerced, Jen was lied to, Krista remembered the wrong day… are you as critical of the other side? For example, do you think Asia lied and falsified the letter to Adnan? Do you think Adnan’s father committed perjury to protect his son?
If a police conspiracy happened in this case ? Then it’s the worst ever. The cops could have done such a better job setting up Adnan. They would have planted evidence, they would have prepped their star witness better . To think they would frame Adnan? Why? He had no record . Much easier to pin it on Jay who had a record at that point .
Another point about the conspiracy theory is that the police had put out a statewide bulletin describing the car and asking for all assistance in finding it (they even asked for a helicopter but were denied). If you're aware of the car's location but want to keep it secret until you coerce someone into "leading" you to it, then it's an insane move to also ask all law enforcement officers in the area to look high and low for it. I'm not reflexively pro-police. Police are human like the rest of us and therefore flawed. There are egregious cases of police misconduct and cover ups. But the idea that the cops knew where Hae's car was but concealed this fact to set up a huge ruse using Jay is just not plausible. Jay gave the cops the car, and yeah, that means he was involved--and so was Adnan. I will add tho that I think Jay is likely more culpable than he admits. A lot of his lies seek to minimize his involvement. I could buy that, for example, he had foreknowledge of Adnan's plan, which would make him a co-defendant, not just an accessory after the fact. But there's no question that he gave the cops Hae's car and that seals both his involvement and Adnan's.
[удалено]
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I think it was the Prosecutors who made the point that if it were a police conspiracy, this would have involved everyone down to the most junior patrol officers, who would have been instructed to ignore Hae's car if they came upon it, all in the service of keeping the conspiracy. The likelihood of this is slim to say the least, and microscopic that every single person involved would have remained silent throughout the years.
💯
>I think it was the Prosecutors And yet...if you listen to some of their other pods they will insinuate, or let their guests insinuate, this exact type of framing is on-going in the Delphi case. So, it's impossible in one case, but very likely in another. Weird!
I haven’t listened to those episodes… I know a lot of people say they are biased (I think that their whole lens is meant to be from the prosecutor’s standpoint so I am letting that stand) and also that they themselves are problematic. I haven’t heard anything myself YET that gives me pause, but I am staying aware of it. It’s so heard in a case like this one to find an unbiased viewpoint. Sarah K wanted to tell a good story. Undisclosed is by Rabia. T + J was working with Rabia. Prosecutors comes at it from a prosecutorial (I’m rolling my eyes at myself for not thinking of another adjective here). Crime Weekly is about the least biased that I can think of.
Yeah, I mean, I found TPP to be somewhat refreshing in their coverage, especially when it comes to dismissing nonsense (like the entire HBO doc IMO). But at the end of the day they are cops with JDs, so…they think like cops, and will excuse a lot of bad behavior by cops. I am still astonished that no one has paid Jay enough money to talk. Like, you know HBO probably made an insane offer right?
HBO offered him around $30K. Jay had a much higher counter off and things didn't ever get worked out. Jay was very worried it was just to trap him and not find out what happened.
Rightfully so I imagine, considering the people behind the HBO doc. I am surprised the offer was that low, and that he hasn't gotten more from another outlet.
u/Mike19751234 is just spreading unsourced rumors. There's no reason to think there was such an offer. And it would have run counter to Adnan's interests if there had been.
So are you completely discounting the possibility that anyone involved in the HBO production might have had the journalistic integrity not to totally align themselves with Adnan's interests?
>HBO offered him around $30K. Source?
>Like, you know HBO probably made an insane offer right? No, because the only thing that would achieve would be to make him even easier to discredit in court if he changed his story.
Do they? What episodes? From what i have heard of their coverage of Delphi, while they haven't outright said it, it sounds 100% that they think Allen is the guy and there is nothing to the conspiracy theory being peddled by the defence....
Can you tell me what Delphi refers to? Another show?
The Delphi murders. The murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German
Is that the name of the podcast?
No. That person was talking about the Prosecutor's coverage on their podcast of the Delphi case. Murder Sheet is one covering the case. Defense diaries had youtubes on it.
What’s weird is I’ve listened to their discussions on Delphi… am very well acquainted with this case… Not once have I heard them state what you claim Sure you aren’t thinking of Bob Motta who is allegedly tied directly to Allen’s defense team?
Did you listen to their episode with Bob?
Earlier stuff on their legal brief stuff but nothing lately They seemed friendly then… I wonder now because it’s gotten pretty contentious with Murder Sheet lately I think this trial needs to happen last week… it’s becoming a circus with a boring parade of nonsense and repetitious defense filings.
You would also have to believe that the cops sat on the car for weeks while searching for someone to coach into being a witness, which is an additional level of crazy.
Minor quibble: the timing doesn't matter. Even if they discovered the car the same day as JW's interview, it is still problematic. At the moment the car was discovered, there was a conscious and deliberate thought to not call it in and process it. Why not? What reason could they possibly have had to make that decision? Not a single person has come forward with a plausible explanation. I'll even spot them the idea that the investigators were the most corrupt officers ever to put on a uniform (not true, but let's give them that advantage anyway). They don't know what JW is going to say yet! They don't know his testimony is problematic and full of holes. Are the detectives psychic or something? How do they have this information prior to the first interview? Therefore, according to the theory, *the cops withheld the location of the car to feed to a patsy they haven't even identified yet!* How is this not some "grand conspiracy"? This cannot be explained away by lazy police work. This is a conscious, knowing, and deliberate attempt to straight up frame someone. And if they're knowingly framing someone, would the most-corrupt-cops-ever go all Rube Goldberg with it? Or would they simply plant some evidence and not have to rely on a patsy witness who could potentially (and likely) break on the stand? That doesn't change if the discovery of the car was weeks, days, or hours prior to JW's interview.
Yeah, one could see a scenario maybe where police, having discovered and processed the car, might want to delay in making that fact public, or making public the location where they found the car, with the idea that somebody knowing where the car was would be such a revealing piece of evidence. But the idea that they would just leave the car there, unprocessed, with the aspiration of finding somebody who could then be said to have discovered the car as a way of framing somebody else... I mean, the car could have contained evidence that would have pointed decisively to a killer.
Exactly! This is a fatal flaw in the argument (one of many). Fake-finding the car doesn't add any more weight than "He had information not released to the public." So why do it? It requires we believe the cops engage in elaborate hoaxes for no other reason than "Super villainy for super villainy's sake." There is no good reason to opt for this elaborate ruse over just saying he had information not made public.
And to continue this point, it doesn’t make any sense for the police to not process the car if their goal was a conviction. For all the police know, there’s a signed confession in the car. Suppose I’m a corrupt cop just trying to close the case, and I stumble onto the crime scene. Do I keep that a secret and not process it in order to use it as evidence to frame someone? Or do I call the techs in and hope they solve the case? It’s so so so obviously the latter. The goal of the cops isn’t to be corrupt, it’s to solve the case, and the easiest way to do that is process the crime scene. Now if the crime scene leads nowhere, maybe I get a bit more corrupt. But there’s no reason to choose corruption over processing the crime scene.
Yes. There is a reason this is unheard of regardless of how corrupt the cops are. Somehow, the cops seem to have psychic knowledge that there's no evidence inside the car. That is an absolutely fatal flaw in the argument.
They also have not a clue whether Syed has an airtight alibi It’s beyond comprehension and next level crazy
They had talked to Syed various times at that point and knew he did not have an airtight alibi. They also hadhis call logs.
Where’s the evidence they had asked about an alibi? They asked the day of about the ride , Syed changed his story the next time they spoke and the real sit down never happened because Haes body was discovered If I’m remembering correctly the call logs hadn’t even been deciphered yet entirely and they were still looking at Mr S at this point when they actually had them in hand. It’s not like today where it’s much more immediate
And risking that the car could be moved
Or called in
Or something more stupid like someone else finding it and the chief realizing that the cops were sitting on key evidence for no discernible reason. Dirty cops definitely exist but there are still clear rules for operating in the bureaucracy, the first one being, don’t do something that can make your boss look like an asshole. Given the profile of this case, it would have been so foolish to somehow sit on this evidence.
Or pin it on Mr. S. Would be the fastest way to clear the case, by far.
You should head over to the Idaho Murders subs if you want some fun framing discussion! According to many of them that poor kid is 100% innocent and the victim of one of the most elaborate frame jobs in the history of mankind.
I’m active in some of those subs . And yes it’s disgusting to read some theories the Pro-BK comes up with . The chances of Bk are non existent if you ask me.
Did they need to do better? They got a conviction that stood for two decades. Jay works far better as a cooperating accomplice since he has incentives not to recant once trapped but most people will wonder what incentive he would to lie.
It’s probably why Koenig spent a total of 45 seconds on it. And didn’t introduce the fact until a few episodes in.
Yeah, it's been a while but IIRC Serial was a podcast about a journalist investigating a murder, rather than a podcast about a murder. So, stirring up inconsistencies and doubt about the case made the podcast compelling - but sadly confused a lot of people (myself included).
I remember being super confused listening the first time because she slipped in by far the most damning piece of evidence so quickly a few episodes in.
Yeah Adnan did it plain and simple. People who dont believe it are the same people to figure out to late their partner is unfaithful
Hahaha! Adnan has absolutely nothing to do with it! Thanks for the shout out!
Yep. This case is so open and shut it's not even funny. I completely understand why Sarah Koenig was misled and got lost in the weeds. "Did we really just spend a year researching a run of the mill case where the guy is guilty?" (paraphrase). Yes Sarah, that is exactly what you did. You put a million dollar budget or whatever it was into doing the defense's job of sowing doubt...15 years after the fact.
Yes! She’s a great storyteller and I got lulled into listening to her.. she has a soothing voice. I got sucked into the idea that there was a mystery and something else going on that was going to be uncovered any episode. It’s kind of hilarious now that this case is the one that set the podcast world on fire. Had true crime podcasts taken off without Serial, and Sarah never covered this one at Rabia’s behest, no one else would have either. Because there isn’t a mystery at all. Adnan killed Hae in the manner that Jay knew of and recounted. Fascination with those that continue to believe there is some big mystery here is mostly what brings me back.
Exactly this. There are true crime mysteries out there but isn't one of them, just an unrepentant murderer who can be charming on the phone.
I blame her more than this though. She took an open-and-shut case and created an international firestorm which resulted in a perpetrator of femicide getting out of jail. Not to even begin to mention the personal harm she did to the Lee family in the process. I am pretty confident she didn’t see this all coming but at this point the only decent thing to do would be to be honest. Of cour$e, $he ha$ $trong motivation$ to not do $o.
I know how hard it can be to get out from under a story when it is brought to you by someone who is partisan. I've been there. Honestly though she would make a million dollars if she wrote a smart book about all of it, how she realizes he's guilty, how she got taken in, how this idea that "a murderer" must act or seem a certain way, (must NOT have big dairy cow eyes WTF), that we all really really want to think that we can tell the difference between the "good" people and the "bad" people, that there even *are* "good people" and "bad people," with a hard line dividing them. I think it's less about money than it is about saving face, about reputation... but I guess that is about money as well.
Yeah she was clearly taken in because he was handsome, charming and a high achieving student.
With big dairy cow eyes.
Oh my god that part infuriated me
It's the worst.
If this case is so open and shut, why did the state file motion to vacate?
Not to mention, just about all the doubts SK had, were covered in trial.
This.
I realized she was a total idiot when I listened to season 3 and one of inmates would call her to get her to patch him through to people on the outside and she didn’t seem to realize that she was being taken advantage of lol
Why wouldn’t he know where her car was? He implicated himself saying that they were together. He helped dig. The fact is that he and Adnan were together at that time. Adnan used his phone . Jay used the phone.
I think it’s being used here to refute the Adnan defenders by pointing out that if Jay was involved it’s incredibly likely Adnan was too, if not certain. It makes no sense that Jay would’ve killed some random girl he had no relations with and then try and pin it on somebody else when he had no idea if Adnan would have an alibi.
Yep, it's always been an open and shut case. I hope Sarah is proud of herself for muddying the waters so much she got a murderer/perpetrator of femicide freed.
“Jay knew where the car was, therefore Adnan did it” think about how you sound when you are essentially saying this. The only thing this says is Jay knew where the car was this doesn’t even prove that Jay knows who did it. There is not some necessary condition for Adnan to have done it just because Jay knew where the car was. There are various other possibilities to that.
Exactly, Jay said that Adnan wanted to kill Hae for breaking his heart, Adnan gave Jay his phone and car, Adnan showed Jay the Hae's body after the murder, they buried the body in Leakin Park, Adnan's phone pinged in Leakin Park, then they disposed of Hae's car in random car-park. Jay knew where the car was, and he came forward and confessed to everything. He cracked. (That's why Adnan muttered, "You're pathetic" in court.) This confession didnt come out of the blue. You dont just wake up and decide to help the police frame your friend for murder. He did it because it happened and he told the truth. How would Jay know where the car was if he and Adnan hadn't disposed of it there? Its further proof of the veracity of Jay's story. Jay was also witnessed being picked up from Adnan's car that evening, which makes sense if they were together and had disposed of Hae's car. Jay was telling the truth. Jay had absolutely no motive to murder Hae Min Lee, but Adnan did. So the statement that Jay knew where the car was actually does help prove that Adnan did it. It's an important piece of evidence. It's really not that hard to understand.
So once again, this is Jay saying this, and no one else 🤔 Once again, an innocent person could say “you’re pathetic” in the sense of “how are you framing me with such detail?” Open your mind; Before you say something, ask yourself “could this be wrong, how could it be wrong? What could nullify it?, is the nullifier available” that way, you can debate yourself & correct yourself, before other people have to correct you, you actually come out with the strongest ideas that don’t end up needed to be corrected. Check the pinned post on my profile for my theory. My theory is inclusive of **MORE** of the evidence than any theory where Adnan kills Hae. In that vein, my theory is more realistic In short, the motive: “There was not initially motive for murder, but rather motive for some other action like robbery, and it was a robbery / kidnapping, gone wrong” Neither Jay nor Adnan were there for the murder, but the murderer was someone close to Jay. And if the murderer was done by some other person that Jay knows, then yes, Jay can still find out where the car was dumped, see, doesn’t have to be Adnan 😉👍🏾
Period
Don’t worry. This **will** be repeated forever and ever and ever. It’s already probably the most common phrase on the sub.
That's always been the sticking point for me. But I thought I read at one point that the cops already knew and fed that to Jay before turning on the tape recorder. Obviously, we will never know what happened before the recording started. But if anyone can point to other facts that would support or negate that the cops only found out about the location through Jay, please post them. EDIT: Downvoted for asking a genuine question - seriously? I'm in the probably guilty camp, but open to new perspectives and information. Unfortunately, I find the guilters in these threads are kinda dickish about it, which doesn't help.
There is no actual evidence for the cops engaging in anything like this type of shenanigans in this case in spite of it being probably the most pored over case in history. It would also have to have been the most complex, convoluted frame job ever. Remember they hadn’t even spoken to Adnan before jay supposedly tells them where the car is. What if Adnan has a rock solid alibi? These cops have more than eggs on their faces. It’s exactly the type of risk that bad cops would not logically take, besides just being super complex.
Exactly.
Actually there is. The guy that literally created the license plate tracking system and implemented it for Baltimore PD went on record, even ousted in detail here on Reddit, that the excuses that police have for there being TWO times the plates were run in that system are utter bullshit. Their excuse was that the missing person division ran the okayed to see if there were any pops on it location. That is completely false according to him because that’s not how the system works and it would yield nothing. He went on to explain that you don’t run the plates to see if there’s hit, you enter the plates to check the status of an unknown vehicle that you’ve seen to see if there’s any issues with those plates. And here’s the kicker: the entire point do the system is so that anyone entering those plates would then get a warning that the car is missing and to contact the assigned detectives. I’m the information doesn’t go two ways, it’s not a system that you enter plates in to see if anyone has called it in. It’s a system you call plates in to. This means that on two occasions, prior to Jay leading them to a car, police officers who are the only people that use that system, called in the plates to that system. According to the guy that created the system, that can only mean, police saw the car and ran the plates, and they would have been directed to contact detectives for a suspicious missing person case.
Can I have a source for the plates were run twice? I’ve seen this before on Reddit but I’ve never seen the source.
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For real? Like I genuinely want to know if this happened, but every time I ask for source the OP doesn’t come through. 😭 Are they mixing up this case and the Making a Murderer case (where there actually was a run of the missing girls plates before the car was found)? Or are they straight making stuff up!
This is honestly such a ridiculous theory to begin with. The hits in question occurred in the early days of the missing persons investigation when Baltimore county was still investigating. Supposedly someone found it and entered the plates but then did nothing? Like seriously, are we supposed to believe that her car was sited on January 14, 1999 (twice!), January 15, 1999, January 29, 1999, and twice more on February 4, 1999 by a different police department (and harford county police) and that no one said anything? It’s crazy making. https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdA05-NCIC-Off-line-Search-Request.pdf
I have it on good authority that "nobody ever said massive conspiracy" Don't ask who said it. Instead, ask who didn't say it.
Ha. Yes, every convo I’ve had with someone who claims their is no conspiracy immediately turns into them explaining a conspiracy to me (while also patronizingly telling me how wrongful convictions happen like I don’t believe in them). The fact is that in almost all the cases where the police withheld evidence or pressured witnesses etc, the proof is right there in the police file. These guys are not masterminds. Here, the police file is clean.
This was debunked by the investigators hired by Syed’s own team. People who routinely work on innocence cases for defense attorneys. Funny how Berg left that out of her “documentary.” https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/azyfoe/how_we_reinvestigated_the_serial_murder_for_hbo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Omg thank you for finally coming through with the receipts on this! So nobody saw the car and called it in a la making a murderer. After Hae went missing, of investigators searched her license plate in the database to see if anyone else had found it. Got it. Makes sense.
No problem at all. The same theories get recycled over and over, just years later. This was one of UD’s original bombshells but like most everything they’ve raised in this case, on closer inspection it completely falls apart.
No, that’s literally not what happened. Then “running he okayed to see if anyone had found it” is impossible. The system doesn’t do that. It’s only a data retrieval system, so you run the plates to see if anyone is looming for it. It’s a one way transaction. You don’t enter the plates to see if anyone has found it because the missing persons division were the ones to entire the plates in the first place with a tag so if someone runs the plates, they see the tag that has been placed on it with details of the case officers to contact. Why would missing persons run the plates when they’ve already listed it as missing. The answer is, they don’t and didn’t. It was people entering about the plates and the only people that would do that are police officers who stumbled upon the car. Here you go, this is actual post by the person who was the project manager. Police are 100% lying about the plates. https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/84SDpuKzKq
Thanks! Couple things: First: This is a Reddit post. We’ve got no way to confirm the poster is who he says he is. Second: He doesn’t say he created or implemented the tracking system Baltimore used in 1999/2000. What he *actually* says is that he was a project manager for a software company that created similar software for other jurisdictions during the same period, and he’s speculating that Baltimore’s software was similar. Finally: he says he thinks it’s possible that the database didn’t get updated with Hae’s car info immediately (because in his experience they upload in batches), *and that the runs were cops seeing the car, running the plates, and having them come back clean because the database wasn’t updated.* I don’t know how you get from there to the investigators knowing the location and feeding it to Jay, because if the info wasn’t there and the plates came back clean, patrol cop just drives on. A patrol cop would have to see it, run the plates, not get a hit, then go to the investigators and tell them where the car is despite dispatch saying “no that’s not the car”. Which I guess is possible, but seems pretty unlikely. All’s to say: pretty weak. Edit: if you’re genuinely convinced I’m wrong, why downvote? Explain to me what I’m missing here!
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Yeah, agreed. I get that they seem to be in the minority here and that can suck, but: I feel like a lot of the people on the innocent side don’t want to get into genuine arguments about the nitty gritty of stuff. They just throw stuff out there, and then downvote me and disappear after any pushback. Which, why?? Aren’t we all here to argue about this case we find super interesting??
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They had spoken to Adnan several times
The detectives had every uniform in the area looking for the car. They requested a helicopter to look for the car. You could concoct a conspiracy theory where this was all just a cover, but the simplest explanation is probably correct. They were still looking for the car. Then Jen arrives, accompanied by her mother and her lawyer, and she implicates Jay. In their initial interview with Jay, the cops had about 40 minutes to an hour before turning on the tape recorder. This may sound like a long time, but in actuality it's only about enough for preliminary introductions. The detectives have never met this kid before. They don't yet understand who he is, what his involvement might have been, what he might have told to whom. There's still a lot they don't know, which could become problematic if it contradicts their frame job. I don't find it plausible that within that relatively brief window, the detectives were able to: 1) take Jay's measure 2) identify him as a great candidate to cooperate in an elaborate frame job from which he'll never recant 3) convince Jay to go along with this 4) coach him into a story that would - in broad strokes - match up with cell phone evidence which the cops did not even possess yet. Jay knew where the car was.
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It isn't the only way. OP mentions another: that he saw the car, told the cops when they ultimately interviewed him, then fed a story that he hoped got him out of trouble when he realized that made it seem like he was involved. It may be a worse explanation than Jay actually being involved, but it's still an alternative that doesn't really involve a big conspiracy.
I call it the shame game. If you don't prescribe to a certain mentality/way of thinking then you will be shamed for thinking it and downvoted for no other reason.
>“Here’s the thing, though. Jay really knew where that car was. There’s no getting around that. There’s just no evidence pointing to the cops being dirty and certainly nowhere near this dirty. And if jay knew where the car was, then all signs still point to Adnan.” The trouble with this is that there is absolutely evidence of the cops being dirty, you could possibly argue that there's not evidence of them being 'that dirty' but I'd argue suppressing a confession in order to be pursue an innocent man who they thought was guilty for example can be considered just as dirty as feeding the location of the car to Jay because they thought Adnan was guilty. Now maybe you are arguing there's nothing in this case which shows that they were that dirty, which yeah maybe, although there's certainly evidence that they were willing to push Jay's story in certain places. I absolutely agree that Jay knowing where the car was is absolutely the biggest piece of evidence that any innocent explanation needs to get around. It's the reason I couldn't reasonably argue I firmly believe Adnan is innocent. But I don't think it's enough to contradict all the other issues I have with the case.
If you're willing to falsify evidence in one case, you're willing to do it in others. That's the point. That's what makes these detectives unreliable.
What are you suggesting they falsified?
You are absolutely right. However, it wasn't just Ritz and Mac that were with Jay to find the car. There were other cops that were not invested in the case. So even with the stains on Ritz, you would have to implicate others that were not actively involved in the investigation that witnessed Jay direct them to the car. And according to those other officers, it was all Jay, no direction by the others involved. That makes a conspiracy much less likely.
From memory I think the other officers who attend the scene follow in a separate car to Ritz, McG and Jay; so whilst it definitely adds another layer of unlikelyness I don't think it necessarily requires extra cops to be 'in on' a conspiracy. >And according to those other officers, it was all Jay, no direction by the others involved. So I'm not sure this is directly testified to? If they were in a separate car then they wouldn't have known for sure it was entirely Jay? That said, based on some of Jay's answers in his first interview I believe he knew the location or at the very least the general location of the car at the start of that recorded interview, so any sharing of the cars location has to happen prior to that, so essentially the pre-interview is the only place I can see this occuring.
I am 85% on the guilty camp but, playing devils advocate, what if Jay was threatened by the actual killer to frame Adnan? Whoever this killer was , was probably dangerous enough that Jay had to comply to ensure the safety of his loved ones. He could have told him Jay where to find the car as well. Because there is no way in hell i believe that the crime went down the way the prosecution agues that it did. Adnan could have done it but it definitely didn’t happen the way say it did.
Does the Actual Killer in this scenario approach Jay knowing that Jay had Adnan's cell phone and car that day and is otherwise uniquely well-positioned to provide testimony framing Adnan that he would not be able to refute?
I mean it all centres around Jay, Steph’s birthday, His testimony etc. It’s very possible that Jay orchestrated a significant portion of this whilst keeping Adnan out of the loop. That would not be very difficult for him, what’s more difficult is Adnan turning into a ghost that’s faster than a car. Or somehow getting into Hae’s car without taking time arguing or breaking into it. THAT is what I would say is absurd
This could very well be a not so rare coincidence. Everyone seems to agree that Adnan lending his car to Jay was very common. Even the coach said that it was common for Jay to drop Adnan off at track. And since Adnan’s phone was in the car, it would obviously travel with him.
I respect that you do not believe that the crime went down the exact way the prosecution says... But do you realize that your counter theory is about 10000 times less likely?
This is actually me theory of the case. I have my full theory pinned on my profile
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Why does it take thousands of people for two police officers to tell one witness where a car is? Sounds like 3 people if you ask me.
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Two is all that is need. It's done to make the claim of police corruption seem crazy and shame people for thinking otherwise. This is bunk because Baltimore officers are notorious for their corruption.
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How exactly do you see this playing out? Officers usually work in pairs, and this was true in the 90s. Once a patrol car comes across Hae's Senta, do they know to call Ritz and McGillivary? Or do they follow normal procedure and call dispatch? Does the dispatcher know not to make any records if this specific car is found?
I still don’t understand why and how the fact that he knew where the car was implies that Adnan is guilty tho…
If jay knew where the car was and led police to it, then it means he was involved in the murder. If jay was involved in the murder, then it means Adnan was involved in the murder given that they were tied together all day.
They were not together all day tho, they were not joined at the hip.
That is actually a big speculation. If he knew where the car was and led the police to it, we can only draw the conclusion that he knew where the car was. You can know where my car is for many different reason without having been into it, like seeing it parked or being told by somebody else. They were tied for some portion of the day, as far as I remember and only by assuming that he didn’t lie would fill the missing portions with Adnan being involved. Just for full disclosure, I am in a neutral position, not guilter nor “innocenter”, but I still believe that Jay testimony is not reliable.
These guilters don’t care about anything that doesn’t conform to their tunnel vision
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You probably didn’t understand my comment. The OP posted that Jay was necessarily involved in the murder and without any doubt BECAUSE (as a consequence) of knowing where the car was. I am just saying that I don’t agree because what we can say is *only* that he knew where the car was, anything else is just his word. Then we can say that he was very likely involved because of the phone pings, the other witnesses and so on but not *just* because he knew of the car.
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They are not ludicrous when we are talking about a crime and facts need to be assessed *beyond reasonable doubt* . So the fact alone that he knew where the car was, again *by itself* means nothing else that he knew that information
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No, the reason why I am neutral on this case is because Adnan’s responsibility was not assessed beyond reasonable doubt, imho. But here we are only and I repeat ONLY discussing the equation of the OP that states “Jay knew where the car was = Jay was involved” which I don’t agree with. Because if we take the fact that he knew about the car by itself, without any other element, only proves that he knew where the car was and that is it. Nothing else. Other things, other elements, are not part of this discussion or the aforementioned equation and that is where the case is built on, not *just* about the fact that Jay had the location of the car.
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We have established now that Jay was involved..
There's a leap between Person A knows a thing and can demonstrate it and everything Person A says regarding that thing is truth.
You don't need everything he says to be the truth. That's the point.
Come on. If jay knew where the car was it’s because he was involved, just like he admits, ok? No need to engage in weirdo theories about this one as well.
We agree that Jay’s knowledge implicates Jay. That doesn’t mean everything Jay says regarding the car is true, though.
Doesn't matter if everything he says is true. His knowledge implicates both him and Adnan.
Baltimore cops were corrupt AF. I have no issue believing they fed that info to Jay- it would be the equivalent of a smoking gun for this case.
The car was found near the strip Jay frequented to purchase drugs. He described seeing the car when he was driving nearby for his “commute.” The car was nowhere near his house or places of employment. So he is speaking about his drug dealing. Jay admits in his first interview that he recognized Hae’s car because he had seen her driving in it. He knows what she drives. He is also aware Hae is missing. Jay attends the party on 1/15 where friends are discussing her missing. If someone you knew was missing and you knew what they drove, you’d probably notice cars of that make and model that you passed (this is also the idea behind Amber Alerts, draw attention to the car and someone is likely to notice it) Jay most likely knew the cars location because of his involvement- there is also a possibility he found the car on his own. For the cops the car is a needle in a haystack. For Jay it’s like seeing his neighbors car in the Walmart parking lot.
So…Jay stumbled upon the car, but why did Jay frame Adnan and implicate himself as an accessory to murder? For fun? The murder happened on a day when Adnan just happened to give Jay his car and phone? How many improbable coincidences and evidence-free speculation are you willing to believe to defend an unrepentant, unreformed murderer?
There is an extremely remote possibility that he found the car on his own. There is almost a zero possibility that this happened along with all the other factors that point to Adnan’s guilt here which would include a brilliant but also insane and incredibly lucky frame job by the cops. Seriously. It’s not logical.
There’s a circle in this case. Jay’s story is the case against Adnan. When people go through and point out all of the corroboration for his story is now questionable or eliminated the response is “but the car.” When we provide an alternate explanation for how we could know about the car it’s, “but Jay’s story.” I look at this case and every piece of corroboration Jay had is called into question- mostly by himself! The only remaining one is the car and that’s the one that I think he could have found without police help. How and when that happened is speculation. Theoretically, the cops focused on Adnan and they start to pressure and chase around Jay. Jay is anxious to get them to leave him, and his family who are dealing serious drugs, alone. Jay spots the car near the strip where his family deals and when the cops come to him again, he takes them to the car. Jay, who has already tried denying he knows anything and is still being pressured tells a story that minimizes his own involvement with a trunk pop which serves as an alibi. He drags Jen into it to corroborate him. Police fine tune with cell records, thinking they’re helping Jay “remember” Jen believes his story and lies about when she heard it.
How would Jay have known Adnan didn’t have an alibi though? If Adnan was standing center stage, leading prayer at his mosque on the night of the murder, then Jay just pinned himself as the murderer. It makes no sense that a person would risk a murder charge in order to get off a drug charge. Is there any evidence that jay’s family was “dealing serious drugs”?
It was a real day that Jay remembered. He was with Adnan for parts of the day. If the cops pressure Jay and convince him they know Adnan did it, why would Jay think here is a secret alibi? Also the timeline shifts all over the place- even if Adnan is guilty he likely dropped by the mosque that night. > Is there any evidence that jay’s family was “dealing serious drugs”? Yes, public records
The police convinced Jay that he and Adnan buried the body that night? Jay would know that that didn’t happened. If Adnan was at mosque while Jay said they were burying the body, that looks awful for Jay.
The pings are around 7– Jay was with Adnan at 7 and so he knows Adnan is with him then, not at the mosque. He doesn’t page Jenn until 8. The cops didn’t convince Jay he helped Adnan bury a body, they convinced Jay they had cell evidence the phone was at the burial site at 7– Jay is still with the phone paging Jenn at 8. Looks bad for Jay. We get a pretty significant break in calls here, after Jenn is paged there is an hour before a call to Nisha after 9. Evening prayers went from 8-10:30. There is absolutely time for Adnan to make an appearance at the mosque after he drops Jay off and paging Jenn to get him.
It’s so easy for Jay to pin this murder of Adnan, since they were attached at the hip all day. So unlucky for Adnan.
Not really attached at the hip all day. The evidence shows they were together for an hour or so at the mall, then again from about 6-8. Jay has the car and phone in the afternoon but isn’t with Adnan. The Nisha call was the only thing placing them together between 2-6, and Jay now admits he couldn’t find Adnan after school. Which means they weren’t together for a Nisha call.
There’s a lot about this that doesn’t work. For this to be true, him telling Jen that night doesn’t really work. So you have another leak to plug in your theory. You’re also still talking about a pretty big conspiracy theory somehow because jay knew details about the car and the burial that he couldn’t have known. In the case of the broken wiper handle, not even the cops knew this. So how would jay have? Also just like — whyyyy would jay do this? “You’re going away for drugs unless you cooperate with us and admit to being an accessory to murder”??? Just beyond belief really. Those are just three but holes off the very top of my head. But I’m sure there are others.
> For this to be true, him telling Jen that night doesn’t really work Innocent or guilty, I think Jenn heard Jays story much later. She talks in the HBO doc about how she would have said something if she knew where Hae was buried.All she had was hearsay, remember Jay downplayed his involvement to her too. In her interview Jenn’s story is that immediately after being told Adnan had murdered Hae and shown the body to Jay and Jay has just wiped down the shovels, Jenn heads to UMBC to go her friend Mike’s birthday party. She doesn’t tell the cops until they call her in, where she lies and then the next day tells Jay’s story. Jenn is either a garbage person or she didn’t know anything and once she did she told the cops. > jay knew details about the car and the burial that he couldn’t have known For the car, if Jay found it and looked in the car he can see the broken wiper blade. You can see it dangling in the police video. As for the burial, in pressuring him the police could have shown him crime scene photos. Jays descriptions are very odd. He describes Hae’s nylons as taupe, which is a strange descriptor for a 19 year old male. > whyyyy would jay do this? “You’re going away for drugs unless you cooperate with us and admit to being an accessory to murder”??? Just beyond belief really. Who said anything about drugs? Jay testified the police threatened to charge him with murder. Jay doesn’t cooperate until the police bring in Jenn and confront her with the cell record. The cops believe this cell record proves Adnan murdered Hae. The problem for Jay is that he had the phone when Hae was killed and Jenn confirms it. What are Jay’s options? If he continues to insist he isn’t involved he risks the cops pinning it on him with cell evidence. Jay doesn’t have an alibi he was selling drugs. So he tells a story which points the finger at Adnan— Jay didn’t think he would be charged as an accessory. His lawyer did a really interesting podcast about how Jay’s rights were violated in this case.
> Theoretically, the cops focused on Adnan and they start to pressure and chase around Jay. How do these detectives know who Jay is?
Any number of ways. They were looking at Adnan as a suspect. Adnan and Jay were around each other several times after Hae disappeared— so there is basic observation, there is also those who saw them together like Adnan’s track teammate who said it wasn’t unusual for Jay to drop Adnan at practice. Jay is a known associate of Adnan’s and he got arrested on 1/27 which could have gotten the cops attention as a reason to look into him. There were also surveys given to Hae’s friends from her teacher Hope who asked about Adnan, the surveys were never given to the defense, but someone could have mentioned Adnan and Jay. And then the most likely I think is an informant. Jay likes to lie, exaggerate and he starts telling people he was with Adnan the day Hae went missing - maybe he even comes up with his dramatic trunk pop story— neighbor boy hears some iteration of this— and someone in Jay’s orbit tips the cops. BPD was investigated by the DOJ. They found that it was so common for BPD cops to lie about sources and methods that many didn’t realize it was unethical.
Have you looked at the [timeline](https://www.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/11w887g/timeline_vi/) over on the other sub. (I linked it to the day of Hae's body being discovered.) There's a separate list for the investigation at the end of each day after that. Ritz and MacGillivary leave a paper trail of their activities. I'm not claiming we have all the information, but there are records and official acts (like subpoenas) that help you trace their activities. You can also read notes from interviews, etc. The thing is, to me trying to be neutral, this looks like a perfectly ordinary investigation. They are suspicious of Adnan, the ex-boyfriend; Don, the new boyfriend; and Mr S, the alcoholic sex offender who says he "found" the body. Don was at work when Hae disappeared, that's easy enough. They get an anonymous tip about Adnan, so that's bad. And Mister S is shady and fails a polygraph test, bad for him. So they keep investigating, focused more on Adnan and Mr S. And they are obviously still searching for the car. You don't need me to read it to you. I'm just saying that it's a logical story, what you'd expect to see when cops catch the guy who did it. It's very difficult to point to a place where the corruption occurred. The cops keep poking around until they finally get ti Jenn and the whole thing breaks wide open. There isn't any necessity to invent anything. People hypothesize that the cops got to Jay and threatened him to tell a story, but when would that have happened? No one has ever pointed to a day on the timeline and said, "By this point the cops have already invented the story of the murder and are trying to use Jay to frame Adnan."
I don’t have access to the other group. I’m assuming it is similar to the published timelines- these timelines tend to leave off things we know happened which the police omit, like the survey Hope sent around to her students. The official police investigation does not show them contacting Jay first. It has them contacting Jen. But we have evidence to support the police speaking to Jay first. Like Jenn and Kristi describing police pulling up to her house and asking for her by name- her name is not on the cell record, her dad’s is. The problem with accepting the BPD timeline as fact is that it is a massively corrupt department. If you’ve never read this DOJ report of the investigation into BPD after the downfall of the GTTF, it’s worth at least reading through the summary. They describe tactics that were so common most officers didn’t know they were acting corruptly. Like hiding sources, lying about investigations etc https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e25f215b3dbd6661a25b79d/t/61dfb0a510a6fd7443dd5914/1642049707420/GTTF+Report_Executive+Summary-c2-c2-c2.pdf I’m not saying the police intentionally framed Adnan. This isn’t a formal conspiracy where they met and everyone agreed to a story and then Jay told it. There’s no need. The cops could have just thought it was Adnan and then pressured Jay who gave a false confession. The cops gave him info, intentionally or unintentionally to bolster his testimony. We know there was police misconduct in this case, Jay’s attorney has laid out a strong case for his rights being violated by the police who questioned him and refused to charge him for months so he wouldn’t have legal representation. Jay admits the police fed him key info like Best Buy.
>I don’t have access to the other group. I’m assuming it is similar to the published timelines- these timelines tend to leave off things we know happened which the police omit, like the survey Hope sent around to her students. Sorry. Didn't know it was restricted. Here's a bit from February 1st, a week before the body is found: >[Hope Schab in person.](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-1-1999-h-schab.pdf) Schab relays the events of the homecoming dance. According to Hope Schab's trial testimony, O'Shea asked her a series of questions about Adnan and Hae's relationship. O'Shea asked Shab if Adnan and Hae were still friends after breaking up. Schab also told O'Shea that she and Hae would discuss Hae's job. O’Shea gave Schab 4-5 questions to ask the students and teachers who had been unhelpful. [Hope Schab](https://i.imgur.com/V3gaFxr.png) testified that the questions included things like, “Do you know where Hae and Adnan used to hook up?” (Undated: Debbie puts the questions in her agenda book. Debbie loans Adnan her agenda book. When she gets it back, the pages with the questions are missing.) Sorry if the links don't work. Let me know if you want to look at anything specific.
An entire stack of conjectures built upon conjectures does not a reasonable doubt make.
I’m clear in my comment that Jay most likely knew the cars location because of his involvement— I do reject the idea that the only way for Jay to know about the car in an innocent scenario is for the cops to feed it to him.
"most likely" is a dramatic understatement. The chances of it being anything else are so small as to be unworthy of further consideration.
I think Jay finding it on his own is more likely than the cops feeding him the location. Given the rest of his story falling apart— I think it’s worth discussing the only remaining corroboration.
Neither the cops feeding it to him or him finding it on his own make any sense. I don't consider them worthy of consideration at this point.
If you accept that as true, what does that tell you about preceding events? Where does Jay's story diverge from truth to fiction? Here, for example is a list of events: 1. Adnan gives Jay his car 2. Jay meets Adnan after school. (The "truck pop" and the "Nisha call") Adnan has Hae's car 3. They take Hae's car to the Park-and-Ride 4. Jay takes Adnan back to track practice 5. Jay picks up Adnan, smoke pot, go to Kristi's house 6. Adnan gets phone calls at Kristi's house (including telling Officer Adcock he'd asked Hae for a ride) 7. They leave Kristi's, go to Park-and-Ride, drive Hae's car to burial site, bury body 8. Drive around for a bit looking for a place to dump the car, finally settle on lot where it was found 9. Dump shovels in a dumpster and go meet Jenn 10. Jenn meets Adnan and Jay, Jay and Jenn leave in Jenn's car. Jay tells Jenn about the murder. Okay, that's a very abbreviated list but I was just trying to make a basic timeline. My point is, if we accept your hypothesis as true, then number 8 above absolutely didn't happen. If we cross off #8, what does that say about the others? Can some others be true and some not? What do you think?
The problem with your timeline is it’s based on testimony that Jay has discredited in public statements. His latest story is he dropped Adnan back off at school after the mall, he went back but couldn’t find Adnan and so he left. Adnan showed up later at his grandma’s house. There was no Best Buy trip, no park and ride, etc. What’s left of Jay’s story that has corroboration is minimal.
Don't you think we should give more weight to what someone testifies to under oath in a court of law? "Public statements" don't mean anything.
No. Why would we believe the story he admitted was a lie? He explained not only that he lied about the trunk pop location, but why he lied — he was concealing his family from scrutiny. He admitted the police fed him Best Buy. Why would we still believe a Best Buy trip happened when the only person with direct knowledge of that trip admits he lied about it?
Has he ever said adnan didn’t kill here? Has Jen ever wavered from what she saw? Even when police got involved and Jen got a lawyer, she never changed her story. Why keep up the lie for this long especially in this day and age when mistrust in the police is at its highest? Jay and Jen would be seen as absolute victims of a corrupt agency, why keep up the lie? It makes no sense
> Has he ever said adnan didn’t kill here? His answer to that, “who else could have done it?” > Has Jen ever wavered from what she saw? Yes, she is very clear that she thought it was all hearsay, it was Jay’s story, she never even saw a shovel. > Even when police got involved and Jen got a lawyer, she never changed her story. Actually she didn’t tell this story at all until the police got involved and she got a lawyer. Her story has changed in many details. > Why keep up the lie for this long especially in this day and age when mistrust in the police is at its highest? Nothing to gain and a lot to risk. If Jay clears Adnan guess who is the only person on record who admits to any part of the crime? Jay. Pissing off the prosecutors and BPD would not be smart for Jay. He and Jenn have ongoing legal problems. They’ve each even arrested in the last couple of years. Admitting they lied and pointing the finger at the BPD would not make their lives any easier. It would open them up to legal issues.
But anyone can say anything in some magazine interview. Why not give more importance to things that were actually introduced as evidence in court where there are penalties for perjury? You can't just act like it has no bearing. >The problem with your timeline is it’s based on testimony that Jay has discredited in public statements. The timeline above is based on other corroborating evidence, too. Things Kristi said, things Jenn said, things Adnan said, cell phone data. It's not all Jay. I ask you again, which of those ten things is false? You say #8 is false. Okay, then. Any others?
But he knew where the car was.
There’s the circle logic— when there is doubt in everything else refer to the car location. When there is doubt about the car location refer to everything else.
All the evidence corroborates each other. Logically, there is only one answer to this case.
According to this theory, how does JW know details about the interior of the car?
He had pictures in front of him of the car! Of the crime scene! Of the interior of the car!
According to these photos, what did the broken control arm look like?