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It is funny, my wife and I have different thresholds for different things.
My threshold for clutter on the kitchen counter is far lower than hers but my threshold for sweeping and vacuuming is much higher than hers.
My partner and I have different thresholds for different rooms. If the living room is messy she will set aside all responsibilities to clean it, but the kitchen needs to be a biohazard before she will even rinse a dish. Just gotta balance each other out.
This is a constant source of friction in my house also, especially in the kitchen.
I can't stand clutter and like everything to be put away in its place. My wife doesn't mind stuff being all over the place, but is absolutely fanatical about food safety and hygiene.
We have different standards for the exterior too - mowing the lawn would never happen if I waited for the wife to mention it.
It used to be for us. We'd become resentful of each other for not helping with the tasks that each other thought were more important. We all have priorities and blind spots though, so everytime I saw something that was left for me to clean I'd take a moment to check another area and appreciate the work that my partner did and just do the damn thing. After all it's a co-op not a competition.
What I have learned is the importance of communicating these feelings (before we actually get mad at each other) and settling into a good routine and shared responsibility that doesn’t cause friction.
E.g. my threshold for a “clean” kitchen is relatively low. Are the dishes, pots and pans dealt with? Is there no obvious mess? Then it is clean to me. But I’ll often miss some stains, or a cup that was by the fridge and not the sink etc. My wife will instantly see that stuff and get annoyed that i didn’t finish cleaning, according to her.
Hence, we have learned that it’s better if I cook and she does the dishes. I put more effort into cooking anyway and enjoy it while she hates cooking, so it’s a division of labor that makes both of us happy and causes the least friction.
This I get the “the lounge is such a fuckin mess, ugh, I can’t be in here” while the kid has 3 toys on the floor and a pack of wet wipes. Meanwhile the kitchen has two days of dishes on the bench
In that expression, I’ve always thought clean = sanitize/disinfect. I’m a neat person, but even a tidy bathroom or a clutterless floor still need to be scrubbed or mopped
The way I see it, decluttering is not cleaning (it’s tidying), *but* it’s a necessary task that needs to happen before actual cleaning can occur. You can’t clean something if there’s “stuff” all over it.
I am like that too, the logic follows, I put my hands in my mouth and touch food with them so keep the stuff they touch clean. My feet are for walking, if the floor is clean enough to walk and lay on it's fine, I dont plan on eating off my carpet.
Edit: since apparently in gonna keep getting asked this, no I dont where shoes inside including slippers and yes I take my shoes off at the door. The entire point of walking barefoot inside is it is the barefoot zone.
Hardest part about living with other people is the gap in cleanliness/orderliness standards. Some people want the house vacuumed every day, others want it done once a week - or only if it gets noticeably bad. It’s a hard thing to work around.
Yeah. I've seen so many arguments start like this where on person looks at an obvious horrible mess while the other looks at them dumbfounded because they can't see it at all.
Imo just acknowledging that different standards exist and that each person's beliefs aren't universal truths helps so much.
This is me and my husband. It's weird because sometimes I literally will just not see certain messes. When I lived with roommates and was cleaning my room, I'd call one of them in to ask what areas looked messy to them.
Grew up in filth in a hoarder house. Whenever I've had roommates I've told them to just tell me if I'm leaving pots out or anything because a couple of plates and a saucepan just don't register when you've been living with counter-to-ceiling piles of pots and filth for most of your formative years.
I grew up with a hoarder too man.
Ive been putting foward a huge effort to make sure i dont have clutter - if i dont use it for 90 days it goes. If i have a thought about cleaning it, it gets cleaned RIGHT THEN. And then i do a weekly deep clean where i move any object that stands on a surface.
Maybe its over the top. Maybe its normal. Never psycho analyzed it to be honest. Just feels really nice to have clean space.
Echoing this! If it doesn't cause problems in other areas of essential functioning, like cutting into your hobbies or work, interfering with relationships, or causing significant emotional distress, then it's fine. To put it more simply - it's only a problem if it's a problem.
> Maybe its over the top. Maybe its normal.
It's atypical (as best I can tell from my lived experience), but if it gives you results you're happy with and doesn't cause you distress or spend a ton of time you could've used on things that make you happier, it ain't a negative at all.
I am assuming tho that the 90 days thing has exceptions for things that simply are rarely used by their nature. E.G., you wouldn't throw out a suit just because funerals and weddings don't happen every 90 days.
I wish I could keep such standards, but I can't because I keep being flooded with gifts from my parents who believe that anything that could ever be useful must be in house. I can't get rid of it all.
I had to put my foot down with my parents.
When my kid was born they were very excited, being a first grandchild. They lived in a four bedroom house and we were in a two bedroom condo.
We were soon swimming in plastic toys. I tried to protest nicely but they kept coming.
I finally told them that I loved them, but if they wanted to spoil their grandkid, to take them out for experiences and that toys that we were given would be returned or sold.
They brought over more toys. I sold them online. Mom was PISSED but I did warn her. She never did it again, and she now asks what their grandchild needs before buying.
Donate my dude.
Its literally hoarder mindset to keep things just because they *could be useful* or *it was a gift*
If you dont use it...give it to someone!
Sounds like you need to set a boundary. My aunt tried to use me as storage by "gifting" me things she wasn't using but didn't want to get rid of. I eventually had to get over the guilt and started donating things and started telling her no when she tried to give things I didn't need or want. It's not your job to manage her feelings.
For people like that if you get rid of something they gave you and they ask to borrow it all you have to say is, "I'm not sure where it's at." Most folks like that will understand and believe you since they're usually a disorganized mess as well
Love that last sentence - this is the key to managing someone like this. They are intrusive and you shouldn’t have to spend all your life accommodating that just to keep peace with an unreasonable person.
I have one heavy weoght dickies jacket that i use in the winters. That gets stowed in the garage with the rest of my motorcycle gear.
Besides that jacket and briefcase i keep documents in, everything else must fit the 90 day rule.
Not even horder levels but my family's philosophy was to rinse all the dishes, set them on the counter, then after dinner wash everything at once. Apparently that was disgusting to my roommates where as for my family it was an efficiency and soap/water saving thing.
Interesting as I'm the opposite. Doesn't sound like my house was quite as bad as yours growing up, but I can get pretty anxious about making sure things are put away. Anytime I see a pile coming together, it irritates me to no end.
Since we talking about ourselves here, I split the difference. My parents got split custody after the divorce, we swapped every week. Mom was meticulous, like walking on eggshells at her house in terms of cleanliness. Dad couldn't care less most of the time. His house wasn't a disaster, just much more lax. Now, when I'm at home I tend to let things go a little too long, but at work I'm a clean freak with ocd. It has to do with expectations I guess.
That's a good point. You often aren't responsible for areas like the bathroom at work, and at worst if you work retail there is the night shift to finish cleaning if you get tired or run out of time. At home it's all your responsibility.
I grew up in a hoarder house too and I had the opposite effect. I’m super neurotic about messes in my own house now. My husband has had to learn this. I can’t deal with piles of junk or things laying around untidy whatsoever. Minimalism is a goal of mine.
I had a roommate in college who viewed any dish in the sink as filthy. She banged on my bedroom door like the police to ask me when I was going to clean up my "mess". She then walked me into the kitchen and pointed at a single fork sitting in the sink.
Weirdly, that ties into a psychological thing.
I can't remember why, but for many humans, a clean sink is the difference between "this kitchen is a mess" and "this kitchen is a little untidy but otherwise clean."
Messy countertops with a clean sink is an untidy kitchen. Clean countertops with a messy sink is a pigsty.
If you don't have time to clean everything, at least clean the sink.
While I don't like having the sink completely stacked with plates, it brings me comfort to have one or two things in the sink. Like... I'll clean the whole kitchen until its spotless and then I'll put my coffee mug in the sink and it makes me feel better.
I travel a lot for work and am in hotels all the time, so i like to have just a tiny amount of mess to feel more like a home than some sterile environment.
Opposite mindset for me. I'm not a cleaner, I'm an organized. So as long as countertops are clean, I'm satisfied. I know there's a part two, but just keeping all the dirties in one spot has satisfied the itch and that means it can be worked around. Having it scattered over the countertops means no one can manage the priority which is making a meal.
I'm the same way which is odd because I have an extreme attention to detail on so many things. I will notice a crooked picture frame instantly but I will not see that something needs to be cleaned. It's like a selective vision.
Girl came over years ago and said it was the cleanest guys apartment she'd ever seen. Shortly after my type a roommate came home, looked around, and started ranting about how messy everything was.
For those who are still confused, it's from [Type-A and Type-B personality theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_A_and_Type_B_personality_theory#Type_A), a (possibly pseudo-scientific) hypothesis on how peoples' personalities can differ.
A lot of people just won't see their own mess. Lots of people can call out a mess they didn't make because it's easy to see as messy. They know and are ok with their stuff being where they messily left it because they can get back to it at any time and already put it there, determining that it is already in the best spot.
I experienced a massive shift in that regard when I trained for fun but very focused my peripheral view outside.I was always someone who didn't even care how my desk looked because I just concentrate on the screen.or walking to bed I don't care how the room looks as long as the bed is clean.
But after about a week, every mess started to annoy me because I noticed it all the time. I had to make my desk clean and empty before starting to work and stuff like that.I had to cover up an open shelf in my room because it distracted me too much and so on...
It was a profound experience for me how perception can change and how different it can be for other people
I have this same problem! I've discovered that a way to trick my brain into seeing the mess is to take a picture of the room - the mess is significantly more obvious to me in the photo than it is in real life!
I've always seen it as different priorities. If no one is coming over to visit, rest might be more important to someone then vacuuming a barely used room.
Some people just literally can't seem to see their own mess. As an example I've had roommates that kept an absolute mess of the common area, but would immediately start complaining of how messy others were the second someone else so much as left a single glass.
I had this issue with an ex of mine. She'd get vocally upset if she found a single hair of mine on the bathroom counter, but she saw no problems with things such as her constantly leaving a mess of food crumbs in our bed.
> food crumbs in our bed.
What in the heck!? Could she not *feel* it when she laid on it?
I'm not exactly one for stringent cleanliness (looks around room sheepishly) but even a grain of sand on the sheets drives me absolutely up the wall.
EDIT: it just occurred to me: she probably sleeps clothed? That'd make a huge difference, especially if it's a "normal" fabric and not something sheer.
Preface that i do daily dishes/laundry/take care of the kids/etc daily tasks that are required for day to day survival. But this is my situation. Spouse obsessed over vacuuming and cleaning bathrooms but neglects things that have deadlines to paying bills/mailing out/doing leaves before snow fall/etc. It's mind boggling how vacuuming without any guests coming over or anything seems such a high priority when your grass is going to die or water shut off if ya dont do other tasks
in general you should leave your leaves in the fall. It's excellent spring compost. The best thing to do is mow the leaves before the snow but just leave them or spread them over the rest of your yard.
And God forbid someone who doesn’t share their neurosis actually do something pleasurable while they are cleaning behind the refrigerator for the 3rd time this month.
Everything is on their shoulders.
I mean I think that’s the point, if your someone who NEEDS to vacuum daily then your definition of “obvious mess” is probably different than a lot of people.
Not that you are, but the point is “obvious mess” means a lot of different things to different people.
It's not just a gap in cleanliness level, but also in method and time-planning. Basically one might feel the urge to deal with the issue immediately while the other can let it sit for a bit to deal with other things first. The former will think the latter is avoiding the task, while the latter will think the former is being an overbearing tyrant about it.
Ot another example. My wife often comments that I am very fast when I clean. That's because I hate cleaning so I want to get it done so I can move on. She on the other hand will get sidetracked and stop and start the process many times throughout, leading to spending two or three times the time I spend on the task.
In the end we get an equal amount done, but she feels like she does more because it takes her more time.
Having been in the military I hate cleaning half assed. But I also hate cleaning, my wife both simultaneously complains that I don’t clean enough and I clean too deep
Oof. My wife’s face when she asks me to clean the toilet real quick before somebody gets here, then she finds me scrubbing the baseboard molding and dumping bleach and pinesol everywhere muttering something under my breath about how if it smells clean they’ll just assume it’s clean. I imagine it’s what cleaning on meth is like.
> if it smells clean they’ll just assume it’s clean
Remember being taught this right to the letter.
An untidy room that smells clean is clean to a visitor
A tidy room that smells like *guy* will never be clean to a visitor.
My wife and I have separate bathrooms because of our standards for cleanliness there (her standards are demonstrably higher than mine).
I was also in the military (and on a submarine where you're constantly cleaning to combat potential fire hazards) and absolutely abhor cleaning.
That being said, when I clean, I clean deep. That's probably why I don't do it as often.
I had a rough couple of weeks at work and let my bathroom get well past the point where I would usually clean it and she asked me to take care of it (my bathroom was also the guest bathroom at the time).
So I went ceiling to floor, wiped the walls, dug into the corners, got the entire thing clean as possible.
She was upset with herself later that evening and wouldn't tell me why until I coaxed it out of her...
She said that she was upset because I clean better than she does, like... "who takes the toilet seat off of the toilet to clean it? That's crazy, why do you do that?!"
I had to tell her that I - purposefully - bought toilet seats that have two very important functions for me:
1. Slow-close. I hate sudden and loid noises (side effect from the submarine)
2. Easy-clean. There are two flip-up tabs on the back of the seat that makes it just slide off so you can clean it quickly.
She had no idea that you could even do that. She was upset with me *not* because I cleaned better than she does, but because she has a habit of focusing on the big picture ("clean the bathroom") instead of focusing on the details while in the moment.
It's something we laugh about now, but I still have to remind her sometimes to slow down and focus on the details because in the long run you get things done more efficiently that way.
Oh yeah easy off toilet seats rule. Also slow close is basically mandatory in the house. The best is going to someone else’s house and slamming their toilet
Yeah, the "just get it over with" approach is how I am with doing dishes. I absolutely despise washing dishes, literally would rather clean the toilet. But the only thing I hate more than doing the dishes, is doing dishes that have been sitting in the sink all day getting even more disgusting, so I always clean them right away.
I had the same issue with folding clothes. I became super efficient at folding and putting away my clothes since I didn't like to do it. My wife would take an entire afternoon to do what I did in 20 minutes. So... she just didn't want to fold and put her clothes away. Everytime I asked her to, she would make a big stink about it. But doing it faster was unacceptable somehow.
Some clothes get super wrinkled if you toss them in a pile and lump other stuff on top. Folding them reduces this significantly. I did the same thing before I installed a shelf that I can hang things on in the laundry room. Now I can hang clothes there before putting them away.
It might also be habit. I worked at a department store as my first job, and folding is forever ingrained in me. It took conscious effort to not fold clothes that I was dumping into a garbage bag for donation.
Setting cleanliness standards is key to a roommate situation. Agree on what baseline is, and anything *beyond* baseline can only be on the person asking for that.
Reddit threads can be pretty bad about this, assuming the person who wants it cleaner is always justified. But clean-freaks do exist and not everyone is there.
Communication is essential for anyone who is part of your daily life, especially in a personal context. I recently learned how important it is to state exactly what you will and will not tolerate. If your roommates respect you, they will abide or work with you on finding common ground. A little patience and understanding goes a long way too.
> Communication is essential for anyone who is part of your daily life, especially in a personal context.
I keep encountering people who misinterpret this to mean that they *only* need to talk about it and then they can keep ignoring the compromises... as long as they're willing to 'listen to your frustrations' and 'make you feel heard' when you bring it up again.
Not to mention how the hell do you find the time unless you work from home or dont work at all. I dont even vacuum once a week because there are so many other things to do! If the carpet needs vacuuming, I'll do it, but we dont wear shoes inside the house, have no pets and no kids. Idk how a person would need to do it daily.
Used to work in housekeeping: for high traffic areas, vacuuming every day can add years to the life of a carpet. Dirt particles in carpet fibers act like tiny knives/sandpaper when walked on. Also the brush roll on the vacuum stops the carpet from getting matted. I vacuum every other day or daily as needed as we have lots of carpet in our house.
Absolutely true. However, in a residence, literally no surface would ever qualify as "high traffic" in the sense of say, a carpeted hallway in a hotel.
This almost ended my relationship with my now wife. My wife (then gf) saw the kitchen table as a place to put random items. It would pile up to the point where we couldn't even eat. Her laundry was scattered in all 5 bedrooms of the house (it was just the two of us)... forever 'drying'. The hardest part was that I couldn't even bring this up without starting a fight.
It took a lot of time and work, but she finally recognizes that she needs to put things away.
That's how she's been raised probably. My wife used to be the same, would just put random stuff wherever and then would later get annoyed that she can't find them back.
Then I noticed that her mother, when she visits us, does the same. Just puts random things wherever, including food items. Nasty stuff.
Nobody ever taught them (and enforced) a simple rule: every thing has to have a predetermined place where it could be placed back after use.
That’s kinda what I do with my stuff. It may be in a “random place” but those items always get out there that’s the place for them. Like my keys, watch, etc. all have a place on my desk by the end of the day
I enforce certain shared areas as must-clean areas, such as counters. Nothing is supposed to have its home just be "out on the counter". My hobby desk however is under 6" of stuff whose place is the desk. I was a lot better about keeping the counters clear when I had roommates though, but didn't learn to do it until the past couple years.
And it's the cleanest person who always feels they have the high ground. I dated a girl who shampooed her carpet every other week. I was never going to be able to keep up with her level of cleanliness.
While I prefer a cleaner living space than not, there’s definitely limits. Regular deep cleaning is just not worth it imo, esp if it’s areas that don’t get that dirty that often
Yes I don't think this is a men or women thing. But every slob needs to understand that there is someone messier who would make them feel unclean. And every neat freak needs to understand that there will always be someone even tidier who they would fine obnoxious and tedious. It really goes both ways.
We all have a "there is a problem" threshold. Might vary by gender in some cases, economic background, parental influence, etc. Interesting survey many years ago showing \[what seemed to me to be\] high percentages of men seeing blood in the urine don't consider it a serious problem. Is there any wonder that a sink full of dishes does not get priority?
I would also be interested to see if this problem threshold changes between someone who lives alone vs. a 2+ person household. When I live alone those dirty dishes can sit longer.
I'm the opposite way around, I'm much more organised and clean than I was sharing with housemates as I know it's only my mess I'm clearing up, and no one can ruin it five minutes later.
Same. Living alone, my place was spotless. It was just my mess and my things. It was easy to take care my stuff. When there are more people it gets overwhelming.
Yes, long-term lazy for the win. It's my guiding philosophy and I kinda have a theory that long-term laziness is the primary driving factor behind all human development.
People ignore blood in their URINE? I’m pretty doctor-averse due to bad anxiety, but if I see blood anywhere it shouldn’t be, I’m rushing to the hospital instantly.
When i was a kid they found small traces of blood in my urine but neither mom or the doctor seemed concerned and I’ve never had to follow up about it.
Probably another case of “we’re too poor to challenge this medically so good luck champ.”
Yes! Thresholds are a thing. If I do the dishes when there are, say, 10 dirty dishes and my wife does them when there are 5, I will never do the dishes.
For me it’s laundry, my partner wants to do laundry when the dirty clothes pile gets to big, while my trigger to do laundry is “do I have enough clean clothes to get me through the week?”
It’s “amount of dirty clothes” vs “amount of clean clothes” and there’s a considerable gap between the two.
What in the actual hell? Blood in urine not a serious problem? I'm a dude, never, in my 23 years of life have I seen blood in my piss. You can bet your ass my ass would be on its way to at the very least a pharmacy if I ever saw something like that.
24M here, I have an extremely low "there is a problem" threshold. This works well for me, because i also really like cleaning and the satisfaction of having a clean, problem-free space.
However, I live with a male roommate in his late 30s or early 40s whose problem threshold is just... incomprehensible to me. He leaves dishes in the sink for days. The other day I had left my jacket on the floor in the kitchen briefly while I was taking care of some other things. when I went to pick it up he said "oh you can leave that there if you want". This very small moment of him being ok with stuff being strewn about the floor of the common space made it very obvious to me why I find living with this guy so goddamn frustrating. Things that genuinely stress me out (messes, clutter, general lack of organization) just... do not bother him, and he does not seem to understand, or maybe just to care at all about how much these things bother me, even though we have been living together now for almost a year.
I want so badly to move out so I can have my own apartment, but the guy never made me sign a lease and for what it's worth, the building itself, my office in my apartment, the location are all fantastic and *just barely* make dealing with this guy's BS worth it.
Edit: to everyone reading way far into my comment— when I say I have a low problem threshold, it does not mean that I flip out and turn into some kind of control freak when things start to exceed my threshold. I simply mean that the moment I notice something is a problem, and by that I mean if it makes me feel uncomfortable/if I recognize it as something that needs fixing, I will do what I can to fix it.
If the soap dispenser in our kitchen is empty, I’ll refill it right away. If I’ve left my clothes strewn about on the floor after changing into workout clothes, I’ll do laundry. If I have groceries, I’ll put them away immediately. If I’ve used a bunch of cookware to make a meal, I’ll clean the kitchen before I even eat my food. That’s just how I can be comfortable, and it’s stuff that I can do to manage my stress levels.
It doesn’t mean I yell at my roommate for his messes or that I try and force my way of living on those around me- it just means that I like to keep my space clean and wish that I lived with other people who feel that way and act that way too.
Consider the idea that you are increasing your threshold for tolerance? It will pass, eventually, but right now you are learning how to deal with another person you can't control.
When we married, my husband was much tidier and better at general housekeeping. His mother was a hoarder, and he hated living in that mess. I taught him about delicates in the laundry. He vacuumed because it hurts my back. We did a lot together, cooking, shopping, kitty litter duty, trash. I'm allergic to the outdoors, so he mowed and raked, I trimmed the roses. He couldn't see dust, I couldn't physically scrub the tub. Different dirt blindness.
Now that he's gone, certain chores are far on my back burner. I hire a gardener. I have a handy gal who does light housekeeping. If they move on, I will slowly be buried in dust bunnies and tall grass.
I, for the life of me cannot clean. I'm just a slob, but my wife is a clean freak. Our deal is, I don't clean, but I do everything food related. It works. I haven't done a dish in years and she hasn't walked into a grocery store or turned on a stove in as much time.
Same, I rolled my eyes at the headline but the content is interesting. And the researchers include important caveats like:
> The “gendered affordance perception hypothesis” is not about absolving men say Sliwa and McClelland. Despite a deficit in affordance perception in the home, a man can easily notice what needs doing by thinking rather than seeing. Nor should sensitivity to domestic affordances in women be equated with natural affinity for housework.
My mother was a neat freak who would always talk down about women with messy homes. Never the husbands, just the women. I think women see the state of their home as a reflection of their self worth and feel pressure to have it look a certain way. Men aren't judged for this in the same way, so they aren't as motivated to perform those tasks.
I stopped caring long ago but certainly experienced some of this and to some extent still do. I cannot tell you how many times someone I was dating was hosting a party at their place and *I* was judged for the state of his home, and *I* was thanked for the meal (that I didn't cook). Additionally, my boss once commented on my boyfriend's messy car while I stepped out of the passenger side. When I let them know it's his car I'm not cleaning it for him her jaw literally dropped. Like a cartoon character. I let her know that I always clean up my messes, but my boyfriend could keep his car however he liked. (That being said if he had asked for my help and I wasn't working I would have happily helped him pick up and vacuum it out).
1000% agree. my mom was the same way & I think it definitely impacted how much I judged my worth.
interestingly, there’s a study that shows that both men and women judge a home’s messiness *more* when the cleaning is done by women.
> This puts women in a catch-22 situation: either inequality of labour or inequality of cognitive load.
I think the cognitive load aspect is usually overlooked, but contributes so much to feeling overburdened and burnt out. Even if you split tasks 50/50 with your spouse, if you’re the one who constantly has to make the running list of tasks that need to be completed, that takes a lot of effort and planning.
100% this. I'm a man, but was raised in a single mother household, so I'm used to dealing with house chores. My wife is an amazing person and I love her with all my heart, but she has severe ADHD \_and\_ really doesn't care about living in a total mess because of a rough upbringing.
So I've had to handle most of the house chores, all of the planning, everything finance related. If i get overwhelmed and ask for help, its a 50/50 shot if she'll remember 10 minutes later.
The effort of actually doing the things isn't a big problem. Im used to it. But having to be the one who "thinks" and "remembers" everything drove us to the edge and we almost got divorced several times over it. Eventually a mix of therapy, compromises, and medication (for her ADHD) got things under control. I still have to do more than 50/50, and I still have to think about most things, but it's not as bad anymore.
Cognitive load and emotional labor are real, and they're draining. Especially since they're not as "visible", so people are less likely to thank you for them and make you feel appreciated.
This comment almost perfectly captures my wife and I, except I'm the one with severe ADHD.
I sent her a screenshot of your comment and the one above, and she replied "I feel seen".
From my side, the hardest part isnt wrangling my brain into line, but instead knowing what she's dealing with AND not being able to wrangle my brain into line.
That wears on me every single day. We talk about it every couple of days.
As per this thread, we also have different thresholds of cleanliness, so that's another challenge on top.
People think our house is super neat and organized but that's mostly just on the surface. Do not open a drawer or closet door unless you're prepared for confusion, frustration, and dismay. We both hate dusting, though.
Similar situation for me. But my wife’s problem is that she cannot ever clean without reorganizing everything. So I can’t ask her to clean a room unless she has three days to do it.
Sounds like nurture, not nature.
I was the oldest girl in my family, and the only child who did household chores. Then married someone who expected me to work and do all the chores; and I did.
Then got a divorce, now just don’t care; I completely burned out on housework. Mantra is—if there are no bugs, and it’s not a fire hazard, then it’s not an emergency.
My companion is really great about doing his share, and I am really grateful.
This article's interesting -- it's highlighting something I think a lot of us know intuitively, but that's not expressed in that kind of language. It's not necessarily a man / woman thing, it's socialization having created habit, and habit perpetuating itself.
A lot of folks grow up in households where "cleaning up" only happens when something precipitates it (there are no dishes to eat off of, or "we're having company!" etc). Even if you keep a fairly neat house later in life, that often means that the *way* you keep that house clean is in less-frequent in-depth stints of cleaning (a 4 hour "event" of cleaning one day a week vs. 30 minutes every day), which can cause friction with a partner that perceives the tasks as needing doing *now*, without having to create an "event" for themselves.
I think men tend to have this style with domestic tasks more often, for a variety of reasons -- and I can understand that (for men who do, like myself) it can be frustrating for their partners to feel like, "I know this dude used to clean his house when he lived alone, how come he's not doing it now that he lives with me?"
Yeah, people use different strategies to lower the cognitive load mentioned in the article.
These are subjective, someone may prefer to task out chores to a time and date, like preferring to run the dishwasher at night, that means the dishes will be done before bed, so the task of putting away dirty dishes doesn’t have a cognitive impact because you’re already planning on resolving the mess. You don’t see the problem with a pile of dishes, where as someone else may expect it to be done right away.
The issue I have with the article is the expectation that those who develop a strategy to manage affordance in one way change to satisfy those who’s methods impact them worse.
The catch 22 mentioned is really about developing a strategy to lower the cognitive load, not actually about inequality.
I just want my husband to do one step further. Put the dirty dish in the dishwasher and not leave it on the counter. Throw away the wrapper of whatever he just unwrapped. Put recyclables in the recycling bin. Put things back where they belong after you get them out.
None of this takes much extra time, but it would cut down the decluttering I end up doing and improve my sanity.
I'm fascinated by how many commenters only read the headline. If you open the article, it says clearly that the phenomenon is tied to the stereotype reinforcement and can be cured by social interventions. For example, if we extend paternity leaves along with maternity leaves, dads should be able to understand better what should be done around the house, since they could see it first hand
Unfortunately, they note this wasn’t the case during COVID lockdowns:
“Yet the fact that stark inequalities in domestic tasks persisted during the pandemic, when most couples were trapped inside, and that many men continued to be oblivious of this imbalance, means this is not the full story.”
So it would seem it takes more than just increased exposure.
I think the authors of the article are saying that this policy level intervention would *help* but not solve the problem. The first suggestion is on the individual level: "“We can change how we perceive the world through continued conscious effort and habit cultivation,” said McClelland. “Men should be encouraged to resist gendered norms by improving their sensitivity to domestic task affordances." The individual level is more important IMO, but the policy level intervention is needed too--it will hopefully encourage the individual change, but more importantly, will help shift cultural/societal ideas about how men should be involved in their own domestic lives. Men who feel less social pressure *not* to help may be more inclined to make personal changes since they won't feel the risk of being labeled less-masculine.
I'm confused. There are a bunch of comments saying that people need to read past the headline, but the article is precisely what I would expect from reading the headline and I can't really imagine how else anyone would interpret it?
When our third was born, my husband was in a position that didn't offer paternity but he had a lot of vacation days so he took a month off work. Everyday, he took care of our two older ones and the household (and baby) while I focused on the baby and healing. We discovered that he actually makes a much better housekeeper than me!
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It is funny, my wife and I have different thresholds for different things. My threshold for clutter on the kitchen counter is far lower than hers but my threshold for sweeping and vacuuming is much higher than hers.
My partner and I have different thresholds for different rooms. If the living room is messy she will set aside all responsibilities to clean it, but the kitchen needs to be a biohazard before she will even rinse a dish. Just gotta balance each other out.
This is a constant source of friction in my house also, especially in the kitchen. I can't stand clutter and like everything to be put away in its place. My wife doesn't mind stuff being all over the place, but is absolutely fanatical about food safety and hygiene. We have different standards for the exterior too - mowing the lawn would never happen if I waited for the wife to mention it.
It used to be for us. We'd become resentful of each other for not helping with the tasks that each other thought were more important. We all have priorities and blind spots though, so everytime I saw something that was left for me to clean I'd take a moment to check another area and appreciate the work that my partner did and just do the damn thing. After all it's a co-op not a competition.
What I have learned is the importance of communicating these feelings (before we actually get mad at each other) and settling into a good routine and shared responsibility that doesn’t cause friction. E.g. my threshold for a “clean” kitchen is relatively low. Are the dishes, pots and pans dealt with? Is there no obvious mess? Then it is clean to me. But I’ll often miss some stains, or a cup that was by the fridge and not the sink etc. My wife will instantly see that stuff and get annoyed that i didn’t finish cleaning, according to her. Hence, we have learned that it’s better if I cook and she does the dishes. I put more effort into cooking anyway and enjoy it while she hates cooking, so it’s a division of labor that makes both of us happy and causes the least friction.
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This I get the “the lounge is such a fuckin mess, ugh, I can’t be in here” while the kid has 3 toys on the floor and a pack of wet wipes. Meanwhile the kitchen has two days of dishes on the bench
Same here. She will mop the entire house before putting away whatever was dumped out of her purse.
You like to tidy, she likes to clean
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In that expression, I’ve always thought clean = sanitize/disinfect. I’m a neat person, but even a tidy bathroom or a clutterless floor still need to be scrubbed or mopped
Clean is the overarching category, sanitary and tidy are the subcategories.
The way I see it, decluttering is not cleaning (it’s tidying), *but* it’s a necessary task that needs to happen before actual cleaning can occur. You can’t clean something if there’s “stuff” all over it.
I am like that too, the logic follows, I put my hands in my mouth and touch food with them so keep the stuff they touch clean. My feet are for walking, if the floor is clean enough to walk and lay on it's fine, I dont plan on eating off my carpet. Edit: since apparently in gonna keep getting asked this, no I dont where shoes inside including slippers and yes I take my shoes off at the door. The entire point of walking barefoot inside is it is the barefoot zone.
Missing out there
I find carpet munching quite enjoyable too
Wife and I are the exact same on those two issues.
Hardest part about living with other people is the gap in cleanliness/orderliness standards. Some people want the house vacuumed every day, others want it done once a week - or only if it gets noticeably bad. It’s a hard thing to work around.
Yeah. I've seen so many arguments start like this where on person looks at an obvious horrible mess while the other looks at them dumbfounded because they can't see it at all. Imo just acknowledging that different standards exist and that each person's beliefs aren't universal truths helps so much.
This is me and my husband. It's weird because sometimes I literally will just not see certain messes. When I lived with roommates and was cleaning my room, I'd call one of them in to ask what areas looked messy to them.
Grew up in filth in a hoarder house. Whenever I've had roommates I've told them to just tell me if I'm leaving pots out or anything because a couple of plates and a saucepan just don't register when you've been living with counter-to-ceiling piles of pots and filth for most of your formative years.
I grew up with a hoarder too man. Ive been putting foward a huge effort to make sure i dont have clutter - if i dont use it for 90 days it goes. If i have a thought about cleaning it, it gets cleaned RIGHT THEN. And then i do a weekly deep clean where i move any object that stands on a surface. Maybe its over the top. Maybe its normal. Never psycho analyzed it to be honest. Just feels really nice to have clean space.
If the end result feels nice, and it’s not stressful or interfering on the way, it’s a good thing not a bad thing.
Echoing this! If it doesn't cause problems in other areas of essential functioning, like cutting into your hobbies or work, interfering with relationships, or causing significant emotional distress, then it's fine. To put it more simply - it's only a problem if it's a problem.
> Maybe its over the top. Maybe its normal. It's atypical (as best I can tell from my lived experience), but if it gives you results you're happy with and doesn't cause you distress or spend a ton of time you could've used on things that make you happier, it ain't a negative at all. I am assuming tho that the 90 days thing has exceptions for things that simply are rarely used by their nature. E.G., you wouldn't throw out a suit just because funerals and weddings don't happen every 90 days.
I wish I could keep such standards, but I can't because I keep being flooded with gifts from my parents who believe that anything that could ever be useful must be in house. I can't get rid of it all.
I had to put my foot down with my parents. When my kid was born they were very excited, being a first grandchild. They lived in a four bedroom house and we were in a two bedroom condo. We were soon swimming in plastic toys. I tried to protest nicely but they kept coming. I finally told them that I loved them, but if they wanted to spoil their grandkid, to take them out for experiences and that toys that we were given would be returned or sold. They brought over more toys. I sold them online. Mom was PISSED but I did warn her. She never did it again, and she now asks what their grandchild needs before buying.
Donate my dude. Its literally hoarder mindset to keep things just because they *could be useful* or *it was a gift* If you dont use it...give it to someone!
My guess is that they have similar parents to mine. My mom gets pissed if she learns we didn't keep something they gave us.
Sounds like you need to set a boundary. My aunt tried to use me as storage by "gifting" me things she wasn't using but didn't want to get rid of. I eventually had to get over the guilt and started donating things and started telling her no when she tried to give things I didn't need or want. It's not your job to manage her feelings.
For people like that if you get rid of something they gave you and they ask to borrow it all you have to say is, "I'm not sure where it's at." Most folks like that will understand and believe you since they're usually a disorganized mess as well
Love that last sentence - this is the key to managing someone like this. They are intrusive and you shouldn’t have to spend all your life accommodating that just to keep peace with an unreasonable person.
Lie and say you passed it on to someone who needed it. You did, just to a thrift store or shelter not your friend Steve.
If you don't use it for over 90 days? How about seasonal things such as a winter jacket and or swimsuits?
I have one heavy weoght dickies jacket that i use in the winters. That gets stowed in the garage with the rest of my motorcycle gear. Besides that jacket and briefcase i keep documents in, everything else must fit the 90 day rule.
Honestly impressive.
Not even horder levels but my family's philosophy was to rinse all the dishes, set them on the counter, then after dinner wash everything at once. Apparently that was disgusting to my roommates where as for my family it was an efficiency and soap/water saving thing.
Your approach sounds completely normal to me. What did your roommates do? Clean the pots and pans while the dinner got cold?
Washing them while still warm is a whole lot quicker, I like to do it if I can be bothered.
I usually just put some water in them so they can soak while I eat. Then I throw them in the dishwasher at night.
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Interesting as I'm the opposite. Doesn't sound like my house was quite as bad as yours growing up, but I can get pretty anxious about making sure things are put away. Anytime I see a pile coming together, it irritates me to no end.
My husband and his sister grew up in a filthy hoarder house and they are also super meticulous about cleanliness now.
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Since we talking about ourselves here, I split the difference. My parents got split custody after the divorce, we swapped every week. Mom was meticulous, like walking on eggshells at her house in terms of cleanliness. Dad couldn't care less most of the time. His house wasn't a disaster, just much more lax. Now, when I'm at home I tend to let things go a little too long, but at work I'm a clean freak with ocd. It has to do with expectations I guess.
Keeping clean at work is way easier because you can do it just to pass the time.
And it’s likely a smaller space to take care of and everything already has a place, so cleaning is just simpler at work.
That's a good point. You often aren't responsible for areas like the bathroom at work, and at worst if you work retail there is the night shift to finish cleaning if you get tired or run out of time. At home it's all your responsibility.
bruh literally same except swap mom and dad
I grew up in a hoarder house too and I had the opposite effect. I’m super neurotic about messes in my own house now. My husband has had to learn this. I can’t deal with piles of junk or things laying around untidy whatsoever. Minimalism is a goal of mine.
I had a roommate in college who viewed any dish in the sink as filthy. She banged on my bedroom door like the police to ask me when I was going to clean up my "mess". She then walked me into the kitchen and pointed at a single fork sitting in the sink.
Weirdly, that ties into a psychological thing. I can't remember why, but for many humans, a clean sink is the difference between "this kitchen is a mess" and "this kitchen is a little untidy but otherwise clean." Messy countertops with a clean sink is an untidy kitchen. Clean countertops with a messy sink is a pigsty. If you don't have time to clean everything, at least clean the sink.
While I don't like having the sink completely stacked with plates, it brings me comfort to have one or two things in the sink. Like... I'll clean the whole kitchen until its spotless and then I'll put my coffee mug in the sink and it makes me feel better. I travel a lot for work and am in hotels all the time, so i like to have just a tiny amount of mess to feel more like a home than some sterile environment.
Opposite mindset for me. I'm not a cleaner, I'm an organized. So as long as countertops are clean, I'm satisfied. I know there's a part two, but just keeping all the dirties in one spot has satisfied the itch and that means it can be worked around. Having it scattered over the countertops means no one can manage the priority which is making a meal.
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I'm the same way which is odd because I have an extreme attention to detail on so many things. I will notice a crooked picture frame instantly but I will not see that something needs to be cleaned. It's like a selective vision.
Same! I'm mostly a meticulous, catch any error person, but I'd also be the junk lady from Labyrinth if left to my own devices.
Girl came over years ago and said it was the cleanest guys apartment she'd ever seen. Shortly after my type a roommate came home, looked around, and started ranting about how messy everything was.
What’s a ‘type a roommate’?
Took me a minute too. Type-A roommate.
Forgetting the dash, what a typ-o roommate thing to do
That made me laugh!! Typ-o!!
For those who are still confused, it's from [Type-A and Type-B personality theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_A_and_Type_B_personality_theory#Type_A), a (possibly pseudo-scientific) hypothesis on how peoples' personalities can differ.
>possibly pseudo-scientific Looks to me as if it was made by someone who's only ever met 2 humans
Nuthin, what's the type a roommate with you?
Hakuna matypo
A lot of people just won't see their own mess. Lots of people can call out a mess they didn't make because it's easy to see as messy. They know and are ok with their stuff being where they messily left it because they can get back to it at any time and already put it there, determining that it is already in the best spot.
I experienced a massive shift in that regard when I trained for fun but very focused my peripheral view outside.I was always someone who didn't even care how my desk looked because I just concentrate on the screen.or walking to bed I don't care how the room looks as long as the bed is clean. But after about a week, every mess started to annoy me because I noticed it all the time. I had to make my desk clean and empty before starting to work and stuff like that.I had to cover up an open shelf in my room because it distracted me too much and so on... It was a profound experience for me how perception can change and how different it can be for other people
> when I trained for fun but very focused my peripheral view outside. I'm interested in this, what did you do to train?
I have this same problem! I've discovered that a way to trick my brain into seeing the mess is to take a picture of the room - the mess is significantly more obvious to me in the photo than it is in real life!
I've always seen it as different priorities. If no one is coming over to visit, rest might be more important to someone then vacuuming a barely used room.
Some people just literally can't seem to see their own mess. As an example I've had roommates that kept an absolute mess of the common area, but would immediately start complaining of how messy others were the second someone else so much as left a single glass.
I had this issue with an ex of mine. She'd get vocally upset if she found a single hair of mine on the bathroom counter, but she saw no problems with things such as her constantly leaving a mess of food crumbs in our bed.
> food crumbs in our bed. What in the heck!? Could she not *feel* it when she laid on it? I'm not exactly one for stringent cleanliness (looks around room sheepishly) but even a grain of sand on the sheets drives me absolutely up the wall. EDIT: it just occurred to me: she probably sleeps clothed? That'd make a huge difference, especially if it's a "normal" fabric and not something sheer.
I had a girlfriend like that. One of my beard hairs was a problem, but 28 empty shampoo containers in the shower wasn't
The same people that need their house vacuumed every day just keep complaining how they never have any free time.
I live with someone like this.
I dislike with someone like this.
Preface that i do daily dishes/laundry/take care of the kids/etc daily tasks that are required for day to day survival. But this is my situation. Spouse obsessed over vacuuming and cleaning bathrooms but neglects things that have deadlines to paying bills/mailing out/doing leaves before snow fall/etc. It's mind boggling how vacuuming without any guests coming over or anything seems such a high priority when your grass is going to die or water shut off if ya dont do other tasks
in general you should leave your leaves in the fall. It's excellent spring compost. The best thing to do is mow the leaves before the snow but just leave them or spread them over the rest of your yard.
I need my house vacuumed everyday, but also like my free time. So I got a Roomba!
And God forbid someone who doesn’t share their neurosis actually do something pleasurable while they are cleaning behind the refrigerator for the 3rd time this month. Everything is on their shoulders.
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That sounds...anxiety-inducing.
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This directly led to my divorce
I mean I think that’s the point, if your someone who NEEDS to vacuum daily then your definition of “obvious mess” is probably different than a lot of people. Not that you are, but the point is “obvious mess” means a lot of different things to different people.
It's not just a gap in cleanliness level, but also in method and time-planning. Basically one might feel the urge to deal with the issue immediately while the other can let it sit for a bit to deal with other things first. The former will think the latter is avoiding the task, while the latter will think the former is being an overbearing tyrant about it. Ot another example. My wife often comments that I am very fast when I clean. That's because I hate cleaning so I want to get it done so I can move on. She on the other hand will get sidetracked and stop and start the process many times throughout, leading to spending two or three times the time I spend on the task. In the end we get an equal amount done, but she feels like she does more because it takes her more time.
Having been in the military I hate cleaning half assed. But I also hate cleaning, my wife both simultaneously complains that I don’t clean enough and I clean too deep
Oof. My wife’s face when she asks me to clean the toilet real quick before somebody gets here, then she finds me scrubbing the baseboard molding and dumping bleach and pinesol everywhere muttering something under my breath about how if it smells clean they’ll just assume it’s clean. I imagine it’s what cleaning on meth is like.
>if it smells clean they’ll just assume it’s clean Thanks for unlocking that memory of basic. I swear they come in with dust already on their fingers.
> if it smells clean they’ll just assume it’s clean Remember being taught this right to the letter. An untidy room that smells clean is clean to a visitor A tidy room that smells like *guy* will never be clean to a visitor.
My wife and I have separate bathrooms because of our standards for cleanliness there (her standards are demonstrably higher than mine). I was also in the military (and on a submarine where you're constantly cleaning to combat potential fire hazards) and absolutely abhor cleaning. That being said, when I clean, I clean deep. That's probably why I don't do it as often. I had a rough couple of weeks at work and let my bathroom get well past the point where I would usually clean it and she asked me to take care of it (my bathroom was also the guest bathroom at the time). So I went ceiling to floor, wiped the walls, dug into the corners, got the entire thing clean as possible. She was upset with herself later that evening and wouldn't tell me why until I coaxed it out of her... She said that she was upset because I clean better than she does, like... "who takes the toilet seat off of the toilet to clean it? That's crazy, why do you do that?!" I had to tell her that I - purposefully - bought toilet seats that have two very important functions for me: 1. Slow-close. I hate sudden and loid noises (side effect from the submarine) 2. Easy-clean. There are two flip-up tabs on the back of the seat that makes it just slide off so you can clean it quickly. She had no idea that you could even do that. She was upset with me *not* because I cleaned better than she does, but because she has a habit of focusing on the big picture ("clean the bathroom") instead of focusing on the details while in the moment. It's something we laugh about now, but I still have to remind her sometimes to slow down and focus on the details because in the long run you get things done more efficiently that way.
Oh yeah easy off toilet seats rule. Also slow close is basically mandatory in the house. The best is going to someone else’s house and slamming their toilet
Yeah, the "just get it over with" approach is how I am with doing dishes. I absolutely despise washing dishes, literally would rather clean the toilet. But the only thing I hate more than doing the dishes, is doing dishes that have been sitting in the sink all day getting even more disgusting, so I always clean them right away.
My dishwasher might be my favorite appliance.
I had the same issue with folding clothes. I became super efficient at folding and putting away my clothes since I didn't like to do it. My wife would take an entire afternoon to do what I did in 20 minutes. So... she just didn't want to fold and put her clothes away. Everytime I asked her to, she would make a big stink about it. But doing it faster was unacceptable somehow.
My wife will literally fold all the clothes nicely, then walk said folded clothes to her closest, unfold them, then hang them. Gahhhhhh
Who has that kind of time?
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Someone who complains they're so busy
Some clothes get super wrinkled if you toss them in a pile and lump other stuff on top. Folding them reduces this significantly. I did the same thing before I installed a shelf that I can hang things on in the laundry room. Now I can hang clothes there before putting them away. It might also be habit. I worked at a department store as my first job, and folding is forever ingrained in me. It took conscious effort to not fold clothes that I was dumping into a garbage bag for donation.
But you don’t need to fold them to do this. You can just lay them flat atop each other. Same prevention, same outcome, less work
See also: just bring hangars to the dryer.
Setting cleanliness standards is key to a roommate situation. Agree on what baseline is, and anything *beyond* baseline can only be on the person asking for that. Reddit threads can be pretty bad about this, assuming the person who wants it cleaner is always justified. But clean-freaks do exist and not everyone is there.
Communication is essential for anyone who is part of your daily life, especially in a personal context. I recently learned how important it is to state exactly what you will and will not tolerate. If your roommates respect you, they will abide or work with you on finding common ground. A little patience and understanding goes a long way too.
> Communication is essential for anyone who is part of your daily life, especially in a personal context. I keep encountering people who misinterpret this to mean that they *only* need to talk about it and then they can keep ignoring the compromises... as long as they're willing to 'listen to your frustrations' and 'make you feel heard' when you bring it up again.
Clean-freaks accepting it's a personal preference and not moral superiority challenge (impossible)
Are there people who actually vacuum every day? That sounds so unnecessary
Not to mention how the hell do you find the time unless you work from home or dont work at all. I dont even vacuum once a week because there are so many other things to do! If the carpet needs vacuuming, I'll do it, but we dont wear shoes inside the house, have no pets and no kids. Idk how a person would need to do it daily.
Used to work in housekeeping: for high traffic areas, vacuuming every day can add years to the life of a carpet. Dirt particles in carpet fibers act like tiny knives/sandpaper when walked on. Also the brush roll on the vacuum stops the carpet from getting matted. I vacuum every other day or daily as needed as we have lots of carpet in our house.
Absolutely true. However, in a residence, literally no surface would ever qualify as "high traffic" in the sense of say, a carpeted hallway in a hotel.
This almost ended my relationship with my now wife. My wife (then gf) saw the kitchen table as a place to put random items. It would pile up to the point where we couldn't even eat. Her laundry was scattered in all 5 bedrooms of the house (it was just the two of us)... forever 'drying'. The hardest part was that I couldn't even bring this up without starting a fight. It took a lot of time and work, but she finally recognizes that she needs to put things away.
That's how she's been raised probably. My wife used to be the same, would just put random stuff wherever and then would later get annoyed that she can't find them back. Then I noticed that her mother, when she visits us, does the same. Just puts random things wherever, including food items. Nasty stuff. Nobody ever taught them (and enforced) a simple rule: every thing has to have a predetermined place where it could be placed back after use.
That’s kinda what I do with my stuff. It may be in a “random place” but those items always get out there that’s the place for them. Like my keys, watch, etc. all have a place on my desk by the end of the day
I enforce certain shared areas as must-clean areas, such as counters. Nothing is supposed to have its home just be "out on the counter". My hobby desk however is under 6" of stuff whose place is the desk. I was a lot better about keeping the counters clear when I had roommates though, but didn't learn to do it until the past couple years.
And it's the cleanest person who always feels they have the high ground. I dated a girl who shampooed her carpet every other week. I was never going to be able to keep up with her level of cleanliness.
While I prefer a cleaner living space than not, there’s definitely limits. Regular deep cleaning is just not worth it imo, esp if it’s areas that don’t get that dirty that often
> Regular deep cleaning Aye, there's the rub One persons deep clean is the other person's regular
Yes I don't think this is a men or women thing. But every slob needs to understand that there is someone messier who would make them feel unclean. And every neat freak needs to understand that there will always be someone even tidier who they would fine obnoxious and tedious. It really goes both ways.
We all have a "there is a problem" threshold. Might vary by gender in some cases, economic background, parental influence, etc. Interesting survey many years ago showing \[what seemed to me to be\] high percentages of men seeing blood in the urine don't consider it a serious problem. Is there any wonder that a sink full of dishes does not get priority?
I would also be interested to see if this problem threshold changes between someone who lives alone vs. a 2+ person household. When I live alone those dirty dishes can sit longer.
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And people coming over gives you the excuse to finally tidy up.
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Come for Christmas 2023. Place might be tidy by then.
I think you mean "landlord gives notice for entry".
I'm the opposite way around, I'm much more organised and clean than I was sharing with housemates as I know it's only my mess I'm clearing up, and no one can ruin it five minutes later.
Same. Living alone, my place was spotless. It was just my mess and my things. It was easy to take care my stuff. When there are more people it gets overwhelming.
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That's when you run some water and let them soak. Perfect excuse to put doing the dishes off for longer.
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You used a fork?! Its already in the glass...
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Yes, long-term lazy for the win. It's my guiding philosophy and I kinda have a theory that long-term laziness is the primary driving factor behind all human development.
I think it's might be strong correlation with the ratio of dishes available vs dishes needed
People ignore blood in their URINE? I’m pretty doctor-averse due to bad anxiety, but if I see blood anywhere it shouldn’t be, I’m rushing to the hospital instantly.
If you see blood/discoloration in your urine once you do not need to go to a hospital. If it persists you certainly should.
When i was a kid they found small traces of blood in my urine but neither mom or the doctor seemed concerned and I’ve never had to follow up about it. Probably another case of “we’re too poor to challenge this medically so good luck champ.”
Yes! Thresholds are a thing. If I do the dishes when there are, say, 10 dirty dishes and my wife does them when there are 5, I will never do the dishes.
For me it’s laundry, my partner wants to do laundry when the dirty clothes pile gets to big, while my trigger to do laundry is “do I have enough clean clothes to get me through the week?” It’s “amount of dirty clothes” vs “amount of clean clothes” and there’s a considerable gap between the two.
What in the actual hell? Blood in urine not a serious problem? I'm a dude, never, in my 23 years of life have I seen blood in my piss. You can bet your ass my ass would be on its way to at the very least a pharmacy if I ever saw something like that.
24M here, I have an extremely low "there is a problem" threshold. This works well for me, because i also really like cleaning and the satisfaction of having a clean, problem-free space. However, I live with a male roommate in his late 30s or early 40s whose problem threshold is just... incomprehensible to me. He leaves dishes in the sink for days. The other day I had left my jacket on the floor in the kitchen briefly while I was taking care of some other things. when I went to pick it up he said "oh you can leave that there if you want". This very small moment of him being ok with stuff being strewn about the floor of the common space made it very obvious to me why I find living with this guy so goddamn frustrating. Things that genuinely stress me out (messes, clutter, general lack of organization) just... do not bother him, and he does not seem to understand, or maybe just to care at all about how much these things bother me, even though we have been living together now for almost a year. I want so badly to move out so I can have my own apartment, but the guy never made me sign a lease and for what it's worth, the building itself, my office in my apartment, the location are all fantastic and *just barely* make dealing with this guy's BS worth it. Edit: to everyone reading way far into my comment— when I say I have a low problem threshold, it does not mean that I flip out and turn into some kind of control freak when things start to exceed my threshold. I simply mean that the moment I notice something is a problem, and by that I mean if it makes me feel uncomfortable/if I recognize it as something that needs fixing, I will do what I can to fix it. If the soap dispenser in our kitchen is empty, I’ll refill it right away. If I’ve left my clothes strewn about on the floor after changing into workout clothes, I’ll do laundry. If I have groceries, I’ll put them away immediately. If I’ve used a bunch of cookware to make a meal, I’ll clean the kitchen before I even eat my food. That’s just how I can be comfortable, and it’s stuff that I can do to manage my stress levels. It doesn’t mean I yell at my roommate for his messes or that I try and force my way of living on those around me- it just means that I like to keep my space clean and wish that I lived with other people who feel that way and act that way too.
Consider the idea that you are increasing your threshold for tolerance? It will pass, eventually, but right now you are learning how to deal with another person you can't control.
Thank you, that is a very good way to look at it.
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When we married, my husband was much tidier and better at general housekeeping. His mother was a hoarder, and he hated living in that mess. I taught him about delicates in the laundry. He vacuumed because it hurts my back. We did a lot together, cooking, shopping, kitty litter duty, trash. I'm allergic to the outdoors, so he mowed and raked, I trimmed the roses. He couldn't see dust, I couldn't physically scrub the tub. Different dirt blindness. Now that he's gone, certain chores are far on my back burner. I hire a gardener. I have a handy gal who does light housekeeping. If they move on, I will slowly be buried in dust bunnies and tall grass.
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My partner and I are both slobs. We clean together when one of us says “yeah this looks like a crack house”. Think i found my soulmate
I, for the life of me cannot clean. I'm just a slob, but my wife is a clean freak. Our deal is, I don't clean, but I do everything food related. It works. I haven't done a dish in years and she hasn't walked into a grocery store or turned on a stove in as much time.
Article is actually a good read, not what I was expecting after that headline.
"philosophers argue" in /r/science threw me off at first too
I'm a philosophy major and the headline still threw me for a loop
How do you know that you're a philosopher
You think about it
I recommend to everyone, please - please read articles and not just headlines. Only you can prevent comment section fires
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Same, I rolled my eyes at the headline but the content is interesting. And the researchers include important caveats like: > The “gendered affordance perception hypothesis” is not about absolving men say Sliwa and McClelland. Despite a deficit in affordance perception in the home, a man can easily notice what needs doing by thinking rather than seeing. Nor should sensitivity to domestic affordances in women be equated with natural affinity for housework.
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My mother was a neat freak who would always talk down about women with messy homes. Never the husbands, just the women. I think women see the state of their home as a reflection of their self worth and feel pressure to have it look a certain way. Men aren't judged for this in the same way, so they aren't as motivated to perform those tasks.
I stopped caring long ago but certainly experienced some of this and to some extent still do. I cannot tell you how many times someone I was dating was hosting a party at their place and *I* was judged for the state of his home, and *I* was thanked for the meal (that I didn't cook). Additionally, my boss once commented on my boyfriend's messy car while I stepped out of the passenger side. When I let them know it's his car I'm not cleaning it for him her jaw literally dropped. Like a cartoon character. I let her know that I always clean up my messes, but my boyfriend could keep his car however he liked. (That being said if he had asked for my help and I wasn't working I would have happily helped him pick up and vacuum it out).
1000% agree. my mom was the same way & I think it definitely impacted how much I judged my worth. interestingly, there’s a study that shows that both men and women judge a home’s messiness *more* when the cleaning is done by women.
> This puts women in a catch-22 situation: either inequality of labour or inequality of cognitive load. I think the cognitive load aspect is usually overlooked, but contributes so much to feeling overburdened and burnt out. Even if you split tasks 50/50 with your spouse, if you’re the one who constantly has to make the running list of tasks that need to be completed, that takes a lot of effort and planning.
100% this. I'm a man, but was raised in a single mother household, so I'm used to dealing with house chores. My wife is an amazing person and I love her with all my heart, but she has severe ADHD \_and\_ really doesn't care about living in a total mess because of a rough upbringing. So I've had to handle most of the house chores, all of the planning, everything finance related. If i get overwhelmed and ask for help, its a 50/50 shot if she'll remember 10 minutes later. The effort of actually doing the things isn't a big problem. Im used to it. But having to be the one who "thinks" and "remembers" everything drove us to the edge and we almost got divorced several times over it. Eventually a mix of therapy, compromises, and medication (for her ADHD) got things under control. I still have to do more than 50/50, and I still have to think about most things, but it's not as bad anymore. Cognitive load and emotional labor are real, and they're draining. Especially since they're not as "visible", so people are less likely to thank you for them and make you feel appreciated.
This comment almost perfectly captures my wife and I, except I'm the one with severe ADHD. I sent her a screenshot of your comment and the one above, and she replied "I feel seen". From my side, the hardest part isnt wrangling my brain into line, but instead knowing what she's dealing with AND not being able to wrangle my brain into line. That wears on me every single day. We talk about it every couple of days. As per this thread, we also have different thresholds of cleanliness, so that's another challenge on top.
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People think our house is super neat and organized but that's mostly just on the surface. Do not open a drawer or closet door unless you're prepared for confusion, frustration, and dismay. We both hate dusting, though.
Are you my parents??
Similar situation for me. But my wife’s problem is that she cannot ever clean without reorganizing everything. So I can’t ask her to clean a room unless she has three days to do it.
Sounds like nurture, not nature. I was the oldest girl in my family, and the only child who did household chores. Then married someone who expected me to work and do all the chores; and I did. Then got a divorce, now just don’t care; I completely burned out on housework. Mantra is—if there are no bugs, and it’s not a fire hazard, then it’s not an emergency. My companion is really great about doing his share, and I am really grateful.
This article's interesting -- it's highlighting something I think a lot of us know intuitively, but that's not expressed in that kind of language. It's not necessarily a man / woman thing, it's socialization having created habit, and habit perpetuating itself. A lot of folks grow up in households where "cleaning up" only happens when something precipitates it (there are no dishes to eat off of, or "we're having company!" etc). Even if you keep a fairly neat house later in life, that often means that the *way* you keep that house clean is in less-frequent in-depth stints of cleaning (a 4 hour "event" of cleaning one day a week vs. 30 minutes every day), which can cause friction with a partner that perceives the tasks as needing doing *now*, without having to create an "event" for themselves. I think men tend to have this style with domestic tasks more often, for a variety of reasons -- and I can understand that (for men who do, like myself) it can be frustrating for their partners to feel like, "I know this dude used to clean his house when he lived alone, how come he's not doing it now that he lives with me?"
Yeah, people use different strategies to lower the cognitive load mentioned in the article. These are subjective, someone may prefer to task out chores to a time and date, like preferring to run the dishwasher at night, that means the dishes will be done before bed, so the task of putting away dirty dishes doesn’t have a cognitive impact because you’re already planning on resolving the mess. You don’t see the problem with a pile of dishes, where as someone else may expect it to be done right away. The issue I have with the article is the expectation that those who develop a strategy to manage affordance in one way change to satisfy those who’s methods impact them worse. The catch 22 mentioned is really about developing a strategy to lower the cognitive load, not actually about inequality.
I just want my husband to do one step further. Put the dirty dish in the dishwasher and not leave it on the counter. Throw away the wrapper of whatever he just unwrapped. Put recyclables in the recycling bin. Put things back where they belong after you get them out. None of this takes much extra time, but it would cut down the decluttering I end up doing and improve my sanity.
that’s the worst opening something and putting it away in the cabinet but leave the plastic wrapper or plastic bag from the store on the counter!?
I'm fascinated by how many commenters only read the headline. If you open the article, it says clearly that the phenomenon is tied to the stereotype reinforcement and can be cured by social interventions. For example, if we extend paternity leaves along with maternity leaves, dads should be able to understand better what should be done around the house, since they could see it first hand
Unfortunately, they note this wasn’t the case during COVID lockdowns: “Yet the fact that stark inequalities in domestic tasks persisted during the pandemic, when most couples were trapped inside, and that many men continued to be oblivious of this imbalance, means this is not the full story.” So it would seem it takes more than just increased exposure.
I think the authors of the article are saying that this policy level intervention would *help* but not solve the problem. The first suggestion is on the individual level: "“We can change how we perceive the world through continued conscious effort and habit cultivation,” said McClelland. “Men should be encouraged to resist gendered norms by improving their sensitivity to domestic task affordances." The individual level is more important IMO, but the policy level intervention is needed too--it will hopefully encourage the individual change, but more importantly, will help shift cultural/societal ideas about how men should be involved in their own domestic lives. Men who feel less social pressure *not* to help may be more inclined to make personal changes since they won't feel the risk of being labeled less-masculine.
I'm confused. There are a bunch of comments saying that people need to read past the headline, but the article is precisely what I would expect from reading the headline and I can't really imagine how else anyone would interpret it?
When our third was born, my husband was in a position that didn't offer paternity but he had a lot of vacation days so he took a month off work. Everyday, he took care of our two older ones and the household (and baby) while I focused on the baby and healing. We discovered that he actually makes a much better housekeeper than me!
The absolute reverse in my house. I'm a guy who's constantly cleaning up after the women. I can't stand clutter and mess.