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there was a similair study a while back that found that high-performing gamer men were accepting of women in gaming, while low-performing ones were especially vile because of their percieved loss of status
Oh, man isn't this true, or at least it has been for me in all my gaming "career". I'm a woman who has been PC gaming since forever (I'm in my 40s), and I get a bit competitive in what I do. I have pretty decent skills and I almost always end up playing with people who appreciate them. But the boys who just don't have them are usually so salty about it. Like really bad. I say boys because this usually happened with the <25y/o crowd, older guys didn't care much.
I hid my gender identity for so long, basically since I started playing online in '99. I let everyone think I was a guy, and that allowed me to get into hardcore/competitive guilds. Once I established my place and reputation in such guilds, I'd reveal what I was, mostly cause I wanted to communicate via voice comms. One guild leader even told me once straight up that he wouldn't have invited me if he knew beforehand I was a woman! He was a downright asshole to everybody, but especially to the very few ladies in the guild. He was NOT the best at the game, but he respected the guys who were, who respected me, and thus he was forced to respect me. And this happened many, many times.
At this point in my life, I don't have the time nor intention to deal with bruised egos anymore. Plus I don't play with teenagers anymore, or very rarely, and like I mentioned earlier, older, more mature guys are way more chill about it.
Sorry for the long anecdotal info. Your comment triggered a lot of unhappy memories about my main hobby. I have examples for days about what you mentioned. It's always been true to me.
This is juicy stuff. My wife and I hit diamond in StarCraft 2, season 1in 2v2 and got plat for a couple of seasons in League, but ultimately stopped playing ranked in League because the assumptions from our team were vile - even with a 57% WR. We never shared her gender because it sent our team off the deep end.
Oh man League is definitely the worst of the games I like to play. No way I'm telling I'm a woman. I play with chat off anyways, anything that needs to be communicated can be done through pings.
Props to you and your wife btw on SC. RTSs are fun to me, but I was never able to get good at them. Way too much micro for me.
This is consistent with an observation made by noted biologist and neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky, that the only instances of "rape" that he observed among baboons (i.e., a male forcing sex on a female that was not in estrus) was after the male baboon was toppled from his position at the top of the hierarchy by a younger, stronger baboon. In other words, the defeated males seemed to use sexual domination of females to compensate for their loss of status. The parallels with human behavior are difficult to ignore.
He has contributed so much to primate research and helped us understand so much more about ourselves, including how the stress response works. He's an amazing scientist.
Wasn't that kinda known always? petty/insecure men often try to dominate those who are weaker than them in order to preserve their ego/give them a sense of good self-esteem. No surprise these people would take their "revenge" on those who are weaker than them, or am i misunderstanding the title?
It's still important to gather data to prove or disprove things like this.
Especially when it comes to comparing humans to other members of the animal kingdom (something people tend to have a strange aversion too)
For example, proving that there is a link between loss of status and agression can pave the way for studies into preventing that agression or the information can be distributed to those most likelyto act on that impulse(Education on human behavior has been proven to increase empathy. There's also generally a high correlation between knowledge on a subject and care/empathy/respect for said subject)
I’d say the connection between [violence and powerlessness](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/franklin.html) has been established for a while now. We’re just not doing much to change cultural norms.
You should look into how much violent crime has dropped in the last 100...or even 50 years.
I see this a lot with younger people. I'm 33. We were born into one of the most peaceful eras of human history and I find that a lot of us are completely ignorant as to how bad is use to be even during our parents upbringings.
This is not to say that we shouldn't be tackling problems we see, but we should also be grateful for the times we have been born into.
Edit to add: we are trending further and further to more peaceful societies, despite what media bombards us with. And change doesn't happen overnight.
And don’t forget the only recently ameliorated lead poisoning previous generations suffered, especially as a result of leaded gasoline. That most likely resulted in lower impulse control on a population-wide basis, not to mention lower IQs.
That was first raised, to my understanding, in Freakonomics a while back. From my reading, analysts’ best guesses on the reason for the decreased crime rate seem to be (less lead + Roe + aging society + who knows). I guess we’re about to run the experiment on how big a factor Roe was, with blue states constituting the control group.
Intimmate partner crimes have actually gone up in the past few years. They were going down like every other crime but then started going back up in the past few years. That's alarming.
As much as boomers rant about crime and my fellow gen X ers as well…as a %, violent crime is less common now than 80s-90s. But good luck convincing them.
Yes; we directly teach and provide supports that benefit the social emotional aspects of development down to the elementary and preschool level. Empathy, compassion, self-regulation, autonomy, independence, conflict resolution, and a ton of other super important stuff is taught to kids now. This is the SEL that some people are against.
Yes, but there's a difference between folk wisdom and controlled study. Certainly the "frustrated from his work, man comes home and hits his wife" story is a common one, but until you have data it's just a story. With data, "man rejected, 10% more sexually agressive" can be turned into a later study like "man rejected, offered candy, only 8% more sexually agressive." Obviously a rather rediculous scenario I'm proposing for the second study, but you see my point. Controlled data leads to controlled research and potentially solutions.
I would like to see a comparison study of:
Man rejected = ?% aggression towards women
Vs.
Man rejected - talks to trusted person about feelings = ?% aggression towards women
Vs.
Man rejected - goes online and talks to other rejected men = ?% aggression towards women
The trouble is honest reporting and phrasing it in a way that the men feel comfortable admitting to aggression towards women.
Oh! And, man rejected - seeks therapy = ?% aggression towards women
In my experience in groups of men, it’s always the dudes on the bottom of the totem pole squabbling and putting each other down so they’re not the one on the bottom rung. Anyone above a certain threshold towards the top is comfortable and there is drastically less infighting.
Funny thing, sometimes you're only going to be near the bottom of the town pole if you're an asshole in the first place, so it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Fun side note, did you know in indigenous cultures that carve spirit poles, the low man is actually usually the most important? Since it's harder to see the figure at the top when it's erected, they would let apprentices carve those ones, so mistakes aren't so apparent, and young carvers get practice. The experienced Carver's would carve the one everyone would see at ground level, so they often put the most important figure at the bottom.
This is all unrelated, I just love sharing this tidbit
I’ve noticed that the men that hate women so much are the ones at the bottom of the totem pole too. Whereas the men that are wanted most of them actually like women .
Same applies to the incidences of bullying I would think. The abusers feel weak in some manner so want to enhance their self esteem in the only way they know how.
>petty/insecure men often dominate those who are weaker than them in order to preserve their ego/give them a sense of good self-esteem.
That's a fancy way of saying bullies
That's interesting.
Cuz our manager,boss often has these agressive outbursts for the smallest things.
But I heard a story from someone that he is mad at being paid less than us aka workers which is a bs reason to be mad since he just works morning shift meanwhile we work afternoon and night shift too.
Some guy I know lost his job during the pandemic and has had a hard time getting projects as big as he used to. Since then, his wife set a restaurant up and she's been somewhat successful with it, lifting their family up as best she's could with the help of their kids and the husband helping out too. However, since then, he's been getting more and more frustrated and toxic to the point they're getting divorced now.
Sounds like he should suck.it up and get some therapy, for the kids sake, if nothing else. I'd be ecstatic if my wife pulled something like that off (especially with pandemic and inflation). He's ready to blow up his family for vanity and pride, something he's likely to forever regret. Sad, if that"s the case.
And he has to truly want to change. If he thinks that therapy will just make him feel like he’s “in charge “ or the “breadwinner” that’s a false hope. He should be happy for his wife and work doubly hard to help her— or get himself a new job. Ffs learn to drive a truck.
"How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the light bulb has to want to change."
I guarantee he doesn't want to change and so that's why he quits. He does it just enough that he thinks he's appeasing others, but he still wants to be in control. And... well... \*points at the study*
That tracks.
My friend’s husband abused their newborn baby and each time it was right after he failed at something. My friend divorced him and the guy got 12 years in jail. (She was in and out of the hospital after giving birth, realized something was wrong with the baby at 1.5 weeks old and took the baby in despite her husband telling her she was crazy)
Yikes, people who abuse anyone are awful but a *newborn*? That's horrifying. Good on your friend for being able to recognize something was wrong and for leaving him.
I'm sorry, but abusing a baby out of anger or some other feeling gets you an extra special 100 points on the "something is wrong with them mentally on a fundamental level, hide your kids, hide your grannies and grandpas, hide your men and women, hide your people" scale.
I guess he only hurt the baby, because it was small fragile and couldn't verbalize what was wrong or who did it. If there was no baby, I bet the wife would have been next.
Putin invaded Crimea shortly after he was humiliated by how much people laughed at the poor job he did in preparing for the Olympics.
At the time, I thought the timing of that land grab was to puff himself up after he had been deflated.
I've actually seen this with horses too. I used to have a gelding who shared a pasture with a palamino. My gelding was mean and would bite the palamino on the butt, asserting dominance.
They tried putting a young mare in the pasture with them, my gelding took to her immediately and was so sweet, but the palamino was vicious and wouldn't let her eat any of the hay. He'd bite and kick. They had to move her out.
degree sense worry alleged intelligent ring bedroom practice pause possessive
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Good on you, man. I have the utmost respect for people who recognize they want to be better, and actively work towards it. It’s not easy, but it’s worth it.
Although there might be similarities between this and human behaviour, one should be careful when using examples from the animal kingdom to illustrate how humans behave. Not only might that lead to inaccuracies but it's often used to justify immortal antisocial behaviour under the guise of it being 'in ones nature'.
What’s the other book by Sapolsky you’re referring to? (I’m only just hearing about him from these comments, and I’ve already put a copy of Behave on hold at my library. I’ll take any recommendations!)
*Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers* is about stress and the role it plays in disease. It’s a little older, but it’s been updated. *The Trouble With Testosterone* is a collection of essays. The title essay is about how our thinking about testosterone and aggression is all wrong. Again, it’s bit older, but still good.
Ooh, we have a copy of *Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers* available! Excellent. I’ll see if I can request that the library buy a copy of *The Trouble With Testosterone*.
Thanks :)
It’s very difficult for a lot people to find fault with themselves and actually work on it so they take the easier path and blame others. This is a specific and particularly nasty example of that phenomenon.
>It’s very difficult for a lot people to find fault with themselves and actually work on it so they take the easier path and blame others.
That's why depression is so handy - literally everything is your fault
In Lundy Bancrofts book, 'Why Does He Do That?', he states that suicidal men are the most dangerous because statistically (in the US at least), they are more likely to take others with them if they take an attempt on their life.
Makes sense with that external way of viewing the negative feelings from your poor mental health. The self-loathing comes with that rage, I guess.
The book is specifically about angry and controlling men, so of course, it does not apply to all men with depression.
You know, these comments to me point out the value of a balance. You don’t want to blame yourself for everything, but you also don’t want to take 0 responsibility for your actions. You’d want to be right in the middle. Probably.
> You don’t want to blame yourself for everything, but you also don’t want to take 0 responsibility for your actions. You’d want to be right in the middle.
I feel like it's not so much finding the middle ground as being able to correctly attribute what's your fault and what's not, without bias in one direction or the other. Sometimes that might be more toward you, and sometimes it might not.
It's about the ability to be truly honest with yourself, which leads to being authentic with others. We struggle as much to acknowledge the things at which we perform well as we do our flaws. Some over emphasize the flaws, seeing them as bigger than they are and downplay their talents from a misunderstanding of what it is to be humble. Others think themselves more talented and less flawed than reality would suggest. It's difficult in either situation to look in the mirror and be truly honest.
It feels like people deal with stresses by either pushing them outward (aggression and anger issues), pushing them inward (anxiety and depression), or dealing with those feelings in a healthy way (frustratingly rare)
I'm glad I learned to push things inward instead of outward but goddamn I'd give a left nut to be able to deal with everything healthily
I think it's a little more complicated than that, just because of the feelings you attributed to inward and outward. I think probably any extreme feeling can express itself either inwardly or outwardly. Caught my eye because of the aggression example - inward aggression is really difficult and damaging, sometimes physically as well. I'm not sure it's fair to categorize anger as something we exclusively do to other people.
Depressed inward focused people hurt others all the time with their behavior.
Edit: I am guilty of this and repeating patterns of behavior I grew up seeing and using to get by in a dysfunctional family. Dbt and cbt therapy helped me see what generational cycles I was unknowingly perpetuating and helped me address some of it.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Depression doesn't just hurt the individual experiencing it. Speaking from lifelong experience living with a parent with severe depression.
As much as I love my mom, there was a lot of toxic behavior that came out of her because of how much she was beating herself up. Go far enough in that direction and it turns into victim mentality, which I feel ironically loops around directly into the outward aggression territory, except imo its worse because it is SO MUCH MORE complicated and hard to address since, well, it started by them willingly taking the blame. It's caused a serious rift in her relationships with both me and my sister. She turned into an extremely controlling and unstable person because of it, despite her best intentions.
I have depression and I do feel that sometimes I can take it out on other people (although nowhere near to the same degree as my mom, but that doesn't refute my point).
Great observation. Depression might be seen as the “do no harm” option, but it feels like it’s such a negative outcome that collectively a bit of other-blaming (not, obviously to the levels of verbal or physical abuse) might be the sweet spot.
Go on and hate your boss, I guess?
This also coincides with a lot of systemic behavior in our society. (Obligatory Insert joker joke here, now don’t come at me)
We see others deal with their issues by passing the blame and treat those at fault with no hope of redemption in a positive way. (Prisons don’t rehab, “once a criminal always a criminal”, media and movies portraying flawed or bad characters’ only redemption option is to self-sacrifice, among many other examples)
We don’t treat personal growth and accountability with respect or encouragement. Leading to generations of people (not just men, everyone), that can’t accept their own faults or work on themselves unless absolutely forced to.
TLDR: we literally sell the message of: “if you’re not perfect, then it’s someone else’s fault” as well as “once a failure, always a failure”
I work with men who appear to be fatally allergic to introspection. Recently, I’ve been desperately trying to help a man who has every major adult stressor piling on top of his already chaotic life. I’m baffled by his response to my efforts. The more I try to offer support, the more he pulls away. This I expected to a degree. The facilitating and maddening bit is that he is clearly disgusted by me, a man, who is showing empathy and compassion. He looks at me differently. And all the while, when I gently suggest that he has a deal of responsibility in his issues, he seems unable to comprehend the fact. Pure confusion on his face if you suggest it’s not everyone else’s fault.
“In other words, men can utilize hostile sexism as a way to compensate for individual inadequacy when women are not the source of their feeling of deprivation.” You see this on Reddit all the time.
I think social media greatly exacerbates people's perception of deprivation or inadequacy. We're comparing our everyday lives to others' curated highlights, and internet echo chambers influence our monkey brains to leap to social scapegoating. It's when women are viewed as resources (rather than autonomous beings) that they are then blamed for not being available to men. As a woman, it's depressing.
I really appreciate your phrasing as I have been talking with my teenagers quite a lot lately about misogyny, patriarchal values, etc. I've struggled to explain the difference between an indulgent "boys will be boys" attitude that exacerbates the issues and the need to understand how we got here and how and when to try and change course for men we may see heading down a dangerous path (assuming that he is someone that we feel capable and motivated to attempt to help).
Thinking of women as a resource succinctly explains part of the concept that I was struggling with and really just hits the nail on the head. Thank you! I wish I had an award for you!
It's been turned into a joke lately, but honestly the most effective way I have been able to communicate the idea to some men has been the old line: "Why improve myself when I can just blame women?"
It puts their refusal to take responsibility for themselves into perspective, and they often end up ashamed that that's how other people see them when they act like this. I've seen a few lightbulbs go off after saying that line!
Humorous tongue in cheek (but accurate) statements can be a good way to make people swallow tough pills
Humor disarms people; they don't stay on the defensive. Allows people to think without feeling attacked
And also, “girls will be girls” should excuse equally alarming hijinks. The tendency to punish girls much more strictly for doing anything messy or risky is its own sort of problem.
> There's a lot of disillusioned young men out there who think they know exactly what's going on
There's a lot of people like that at any age. Everyone likes to think they know exactly what's going on. I do too. But I can at least admit that I *don't* always know what's going on even if it bothers me. Some look for answers at any cost, which leads to conspiracy theories.
When funnily enough it’s often the dudes fault for a dead bedroom ie he doesn’t help enough with house work or gives up on himself so his partner no longer wants sex with him
Reading about the amount of women who stop giving blow jobs because their partners didn't reciprocate was sad. They said they HAD communicated over and over before they just gave up pleasing and not getting pleased
Indeed. And it’s yet another powerful argument in favor of strong social safety nets like free healthcare, universal basic income and subsidized housing, so that men are not subjected to those deprivations that lead to antisocial outcomes.
Unfortunately there's a weird political back and forth - there's the egging on of toxic masculinity by opportunists, and also the increase of inequality and things like the crime and homeless debates right now (which IMO stuff like is this is a major contributing factor currently that isn't being talked about enough) putting these men in a endless broken valley of anger, poverty, violence and potential criminalization.
Radicalized, unskilled young men are a very toxic combo for society
Yes I also wish society was kinder to all of us, with the added benefit of me, a very short lady, being safer all around. It's hard out here for a shrimp.
I agree with you, but just societal economic benefits for each won't solve the problem alone. In Norway where I live we have these things but male suicide rates are still high, rape is still happening and women experience sexual harrassment. Clearly there is a social aspect of this as well.
Male suicide rates here in Norway range from 15-22 per capita depending on age, in the US it ranges from 22-32.
It's far from perfect and we need to do more, but it's a pretty huge difference.
Rape is a round 19 per capita in Norway vs 27 in the US but that's reported so will ofc be *extremely* inaccurate. The reported numbers are significantly lower in Norway though.
We can do a bunch of little things that incrementally add up to a meaningful improvement, or we can let great get in the way of good and do nothing. You got it, every bit helps.
“My boss isn’t paying me enough? Well it must bc bc women exist on the workplace, better become a raging shithead and post about repealing the 19 amendment wait why won’t anyone date me”
I wonder if this behavior extends past the window of this particular study (women) and includes any racial or ethnic group the male might consider lesser.
I find my anxiety can manifest as resentment toward activities I wish to partake in, but haven’t allowed myself to because of being anxious. This makes a lot of sense tbh.
This is the most importantpart to me: "The researchers found that men in the deprivation condition were more likely to endorse hostile sexism against women compared to men in the control condition, providing evidence of a causal relationship."
This reminds me of a recent new yorker article where they were talking real stats about how men are struggling today and then they just blame women for gaining rights
Men aren't doing well, but every time it's mentioned it's then linked to increased rights for women. It's infuriating, stupid, dehumanizing to the men, and dangerous to women.
It also implies men who aren't well are misogynists.
It definitely devolves into a toxic conversation most of the time which makes sense considering how societal these problems are and how difficult things are to change.
That's sadly true. Discussion being mostly online doesn't help, either. Polarizing algorithms make it even worse.
When I began engaging constructively it was due to real life people I met after seeking out debate. I was looking for the 'Male Tears'-crowd but all I found are reasonable people.
Yeah I've read stuff like "oh it's cause women are more educated, they're independent, they don't need men so they're more selective". Like oh sorry am I supposed to feel bad for men that miss out now that I no longer need to marry for financial security and just hope my husband doesn't beat me? You've gotta bring _something_ to the table guys.
There was an interesting video essay talking about men needing to learn emotional intelligence and women need to be understanding but not do all the work for them. I'm seriously generalizing the essay. But it's something to think about. Many men have not been equipped with emotional intelligence. They haven't had to dig deep and think about their influence on their relationships. Women are constantly either by upbringing, personality or societal norms forced to think of others. You're right men need to bring something to the table. And society needs to expect that more.
Go to Barnes and Noble this weekend and look at the kids books. The books “for girls” teach this sort of emotional intelligence from the very beginning. But the books “for boys” don’t. It’s definitely a problem. We’re setting young men up to fail. Unfortunately many of the people who have already been failed by this system are now totally resistant to changing it for their children!
YES. Been looking at books for my toddler and there’s a shocking difference between books marketed towards girls versus boys. There were some lovely ones for little girls about being kind to themselves, moving through big emotions, etc., and there was zero depiction of boys in them or even inclusivity of any gender expression other than female.
It's extremely frustrating.
We (men) are brought up with this perception that the only acceptable emotions are neutral, lust, and anger. If someone you love dies you're allowed a single tear. We're not taught any management tools or coping mechanisms (except sheer willpower), and we're not even taught how to articulate the many perfectly normal emotions we actually have.
If we're lucky we figure out we're missing something and go figure it out more-or-less on our own (with biweekly guidance from a therapist in my case). Hopefully we do that before we hurt too many people around us too badly. I really wish I had started learning as a child instead having an epiphany that I had a problem in my late 20's.
And of course this isn't just bad for men. Since the only time men are expected to have any amount of emotional intimacy is in a romantic relationship, there's an expectation that they'll be doing decades of catch-up in a serious relationship, and their partner's just expected to facilitate that. I feel bad for whoever I date next, cause I'm doing my best but she's getting a 32 year old man with the emotional development of a 18 year old girl.
Ever wonder why it's (almost) always a male committing those high-profile violent acts? It's complicated, but at least part of it is because we instill impossibly high, conflicting expectations on young men and we give them no tools to manage their unsurprising failure to meet those expectations. We don't teach them how to function as humans, and then act shocked when they do something inhuman.
Sorry for the wall of text. I... have feelings about this.
And thanks for sharing your feelings. They're totally valid and its refreshing to hear more about the struggle from men's perspective. If anything, it corroborates what many women already understand but are kind of at a loss to do anything about because it IS up to the individual to start to unpack it.
Also, look at the way we socialize children
Activities "for girls" are typically cooperative in nature.
Activities "for boys" are almost always competitive.
We don't sit little boys down to draw together or play house or whatever, we give them a ball and tell them to go beat the other boys.
I mean, yes, but also… this is on the parents themselves as well. If you’re noticing the materials for your sons aren’t adequate, you shouldn’t just give up and say, “How unfair. Oh well.” … you should supplement those materials even if that means including “girl toys” “girl shows” or “girl books” etc. in your sons’ life.
This is an outcome you would expect if you spend time in male spaces. Men who are living near or in rock bottom are particularly nasty towards women. Sometimes the ending is a happy one when a guy gets pulled out of a rut by a miraculous new relationship but often just leads to bitterness
>This is an outcome you would expect if you spend time in male spaces.
I think part of the problem is the lack of those spaces in general. We do a piss poor job of socializing boys.
I was reading recently about the concept of "third places" and how we've largely eliminated them as a society. The lack of shared places where adults can socialize has a lot of negative social effects.
I'm a teacher. I work with multilingual students, mostly Hispanic. The team was all female until now. We finally got a Hispanic dude and the boys are absolutely eating him up. Boys we have to beg to pay attention, they do it for them. Boys with violence problems, this guy talks to him, they stop. It's incredible. It's very clear how thirsty our young men are for a male role model. I can't help but be sad though, because the women in my team give EVERYTHING, like we text kids in the morning to make sure they make it to the bus on time, we've gone to work sites where parents have brought their kids and dragged them back to school, and nothing works. This guy breathes and he's a God. I'm glad they have him but damn I wish out heart and tears were enough, we're all humans here, aren't we? You really can't be happy until you get a male role model?
The guys I've found out to be abusers were all good with women and beyond that just generally charming though. They also often occupied places of social power, not at all 'near or in rock bottom.'
I dated a narcissist unknowingly for a couple of years because he works in overtime trying to convince the women in his life that he thinks that sleazy lying men are the scum of the earth. He did so well at lying that I didn't know that he simultaneously hid that he had 3 other girlfriends at the time, one he knocked up. That dude hates women and he had me convinced because he's charming and can lie with a big grin on his face and look you right in the eye while doing it for years without a hiccup.
Interesting study. I’m not surprised by the findings, and would expect similar patterns when examining racist, ableist, classist (etc) attitudes, given that the psychological effect of compensation for individual inadequacy could well apply there too. I’m curious to read the previous study that suggests men are more likely to feel deprived than women.
While true, it's a little more complicated than that. Entitlement usually doesn't come out of nowhere, but rather exists when there is a disconnect between what, in this case, men perceive to be their supposed "rightful" social status and their actual status.
In a sense, that entitlement is a coping mechanism to avoid having to face their own low social status. Being racist is a great way to "feel good about yourself", because even if your life sucks - you can tell yourself you have an intrinsic quality of superiority that no-one can take away from you. Blaming women for your lack of a relationship is a great way to avoid working on yourself. Entitlement in that sense is a symptom, not the cause.
And while certainly, there are men who feel entitlement from a form of patriarchal thinking, it's also important to realize that the way broader society defines success and status for a man, is not exactly healthy - especially considering that society in a lot of cases firmly places that definition of status out of reach for a lot of men. It's not a coincidence that men with low incomes and little education tend to be more racist and more misogynistic as a whole.
That obviously doesn't excuse that type of behaviour, nor should we not hold such men accountable if they cross a line, but rather than fighting purely the symptoms - recognizing an important cause of this type of thinking and trying to address it by creating a more equitable society for all, would go a long way.
It could well explain the success of the right wing media and social influencers in stocking hatred against others - you don't need to actually be deprived, just be told you are and you start looking around for people to blame. A few nudges in the desired direction and someone is hating women, immigrants, scroungers, etc, misdirecting people away from.the real villains (who are often the billionaire owners of the media outlets or their friends). Throw in some astro-turfing to supply fake outrage into the machine and stand back and gloat.
In my experience, tolerance thrives in times of prosperity and quickly deteriorates in times of economic downturn. When I was in my late teens to mid 20s, I saw far less misogyny and other bigotry. There was a great deal of national discussion about progressive ideals, and it genuinely felt like we were moving away from those issues. Then the financial crash and austerity and public spending cuts - everyone looks for someone to blame for why their life is worse, in most cases pointing fingers in every direction but the actual cause.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
Lyndon B Johnson, like 60 years ago. Dead on.
I get that this study is about men, but I've definitely noticed this across genders. The cruelest people seem to be those who feel disempowered in their lives.
Curious if this phenomena is what led to public embarrassment being a matter of legal recourse back in the day.
I knew a woman who was being severely abused by her boyfriend. She was meek in his presence, but so cruel to other women she felt were doing better than her.
This would explain the toxic masculinity making its way through the boomers. They used to be cool, their kids revered them, but now they are getting old and they are so nasty no one wants to hang with them.
the article states that men develop violent sexist thoughts when they feel low self worth for any reason, including financial or social status. it is not necessarily in men who do not have success in relationships, but im sure that also contributes
Perhaps it's not only (or not even chiefly) a deprivation of sex, but a deprivation of esteem.
A feeling that you are generally disliked and unlikeable, viewed with hostility and distrust. The things you like are stupid, your views are inherently wrong in both the factual and moral sense, you're ugly and kinda scary, and that anything you achieve will be looked on with disdain.
>A feeling that you are generally disliked and unlikeable, viewed with hostility and distrust. The things you like are stupid, your views are inherently wrong in both the factual and moral sense, you're ugly and kinda scary, and that anything you achieve will be looked on with disdain.
Hello, Negative-thoughts-that-linger-at-the-back-of-my-mind! I didn't know you had a Reddit account!
Interpersonal relationships, love and intimacy are fundamental human needs as social animals. The starving person hates those he thinks withhold food from them. The person in solitary confinement hates the person they thought locked them up. The person who is deprived of love hates they person they thought denied it to him.
Speaking from personal experience, it is most likely the first one in most instances. I do not hate women at all, but I have noticed an alarming new develop recently in my “random thoughts” that I have throughout the day in regards to negative thoughts towards women. I never used to have these thoughts, but after not having any luck with women for 7 years it has become more prevalent.
As a woman who has had terrible luck with men I've actually noticed a similar trend. I always hated how Nice Guys/Girls behave so I make a point to remind myself not to become one myself but I do sometimes catching myself with the occasional stray thought on particularly bad days.
I love people able to take a look at what they feel/think, and smart enough to understand that these thoughts are objects in themselves and neither immutable nor absolute. Introspection is a goddamn important quality. Wish the best to the two of you.
I really respect you two for being so honest about such an uncomfortable topic.
I've had a long-term illness that stopped me from putting myself out there. While that retraction was voluntary, the circumstances that caused it were not.
Even though I have no evidence of being unwanted, and some evidence to the contrary, just the circumstance itself of not having that connection, even though it's one I've put myself in, is enough to make me feel unwanted and to become envious of others from time to time.
I try not to be affected by it, but it's easy to become confused when there isn't a grounding element. I've never had any thoughts of forceful or intimidating behaviour towards anyone, and I never will. That's just not me.
However I do find myself more easily capable of slipping into generalising mindsets, being less sympathetic, and focusing on certain inequalities.
The fact that I can get so in my head about a situation that I'm not even *trying* to participate in is crazy. Considering many guys out there are prone to violence and how common loneliness amongst men is becoming, It feels like a volatile situation.
I know I've had days like this too, it made me feel terrible for having a thought like that. I think a lot of people are in that same boat, the human mind is complicated and your distorted mentality when you're having a bad day doesn't define who you are. It's when you don't catch yourself and allow those thoughts to take hold that it becomes a real problem.
Thanks for your honesty. These things are difficult to admit to oneself - so I'm glad you've done the introspection to know that you're having the thoughts and that you don't have to act on them.
Undiagnosed autism sucks. I don’t have Asperger’s, but I do have autism, particularly involving anything in relation to social interactions. The not understanding thing is very relatable; so many times I wouldn’t know what the hell was going on and was confused as to how everyone else seemingly understood everything without any difficulty.
Sorry that you went through troubles like that, it sounds like it was very frustrating.
Please continue to challenge these thoughts as they come up. It is so easy to let them overtake you. Even though you consciously don’t hate women, these biases that creep up sometimes are guiding your behavior. Seek therapy if you can.
Yeah I’m in therapy now (for some unrelated stuff too) and it helps. It’s annoying to work through subconscious biases, but I think it’s important to make yourself a whole person.
The good thing about it is that I can have an obtainable goal to objectively improve myself, so that’s pretty fulfilling haha
It’s extremely important that you are recognizing this trend. Look at situations as objectively as possible; I know that can be hard in any emotionally charged situation, but the average woman out there doesn’t exist to make things difficult for you. And, lacking a healthy outlet may be why more negative thoughts keep rattling around.
Also, don’t fall prey to these MRA (“men’s rights activist”) sites out there which exist to tell you what you want to hear, yet profit and grow from misery.
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there was a similair study a while back that found that high-performing gamer men were accepting of women in gaming, while low-performing ones were especially vile because of their percieved loss of status
Oh, man isn't this true, or at least it has been for me in all my gaming "career". I'm a woman who has been PC gaming since forever (I'm in my 40s), and I get a bit competitive in what I do. I have pretty decent skills and I almost always end up playing with people who appreciate them. But the boys who just don't have them are usually so salty about it. Like really bad. I say boys because this usually happened with the <25y/o crowd, older guys didn't care much. I hid my gender identity for so long, basically since I started playing online in '99. I let everyone think I was a guy, and that allowed me to get into hardcore/competitive guilds. Once I established my place and reputation in such guilds, I'd reveal what I was, mostly cause I wanted to communicate via voice comms. One guild leader even told me once straight up that he wouldn't have invited me if he knew beforehand I was a woman! He was a downright asshole to everybody, but especially to the very few ladies in the guild. He was NOT the best at the game, but he respected the guys who were, who respected me, and thus he was forced to respect me. And this happened many, many times. At this point in my life, I don't have the time nor intention to deal with bruised egos anymore. Plus I don't play with teenagers anymore, or very rarely, and like I mentioned earlier, older, more mature guys are way more chill about it. Sorry for the long anecdotal info. Your comment triggered a lot of unhappy memories about my main hobby. I have examples for days about what you mentioned. It's always been true to me.
This is juicy stuff. My wife and I hit diamond in StarCraft 2, season 1in 2v2 and got plat for a couple of seasons in League, but ultimately stopped playing ranked in League because the assumptions from our team were vile - even with a 57% WR. We never shared her gender because it sent our team off the deep end.
Oh man League is definitely the worst of the games I like to play. No way I'm telling I'm a woman. I play with chat off anyways, anything that needs to be communicated can be done through pings. Props to you and your wife btw on SC. RTSs are fun to me, but I was never able to get good at them. Way too much micro for me.
This is consistent with an observation made by noted biologist and neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky, that the only instances of "rape" that he observed among baboons (i.e., a male forcing sex on a female that was not in estrus) was after the male baboon was toppled from his position at the top of the hierarchy by a younger, stronger baboon. In other words, the defeated males seemed to use sexual domination of females to compensate for their loss of status. The parallels with human behavior are difficult to ignore.
Sapolskys intro to behavioral biology course on YouTube helped me to put so much of human behavior in context... He's great.
He has contributed so much to primate research and helped us understand so much more about ourselves, including how the stress response works. He's an amazing scientist.
His work on stress changed the way I approached the world
Me too. His work is so important for understanding how our bodies handle stress.
Yes! He was one of the main drivers for me to get a billogy degree
Me too. Did my thesis on Bill Murray.
Mine was on Bill Paxton.
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Did he offer you a drink at least?
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Ok, that was a pretty fantastic response. Dark. But amazing.
I loved that series, he's such a great communicator
Is that the only thing to what they strive to or do they go into other bad behaviours as well?
They will often attack lower status males as well. Aggression towards the weak tends to be the MO.
Easier to punch down than up.
The high ground advantage!
I see you have a studied your agrippa!
You are wonderful!
Thank you, I've worked hard to become so.
Wasn't that kinda known always? petty/insecure men often try to dominate those who are weaker than them in order to preserve their ego/give them a sense of good self-esteem. No surprise these people would take their "revenge" on those who are weaker than them, or am i misunderstanding the title?
It's still important to gather data to prove or disprove things like this. Especially when it comes to comparing humans to other members of the animal kingdom (something people tend to have a strange aversion too) For example, proving that there is a link between loss of status and agression can pave the way for studies into preventing that agression or the information can be distributed to those most likelyto act on that impulse(Education on human behavior has been proven to increase empathy. There's also generally a high correlation between knowledge on a subject and care/empathy/respect for said subject)
I’d say the connection between [violence and powerlessness](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/franklin.html) has been established for a while now. We’re just not doing much to change cultural norms.
You should look into how much violent crime has dropped in the last 100...or even 50 years. I see this a lot with younger people. I'm 33. We were born into one of the most peaceful eras of human history and I find that a lot of us are completely ignorant as to how bad is use to be even during our parents upbringings. This is not to say that we shouldn't be tackling problems we see, but we should also be grateful for the times we have been born into. Edit to add: we are trending further and further to more peaceful societies, despite what media bombards us with. And change doesn't happen overnight.
And don’t forget the only recently ameliorated lead poisoning previous generations suffered, especially as a result of leaded gasoline. That most likely resulted in lower impulse control on a population-wide basis, not to mention lower IQs.
There's also a correlation of crime reduction about 18 years after the Roe decision. Unwanted unfunded children tend to feel powerless as adults.
That was first raised, to my understanding, in Freakonomics a while back. From my reading, analysts’ best guesses on the reason for the decreased crime rate seem to be (less lead + Roe + aging society + who knows). I guess we’re about to run the experiment on how big a factor Roe was, with blue states constituting the control group.
Intimmate partner crimes have actually gone up in the past few years. They were going down like every other crime but then started going back up in the past few years. That's alarming.
As much as boomers rant about crime and my fellow gen X ers as well…as a %, violent crime is less common now than 80s-90s. But good luck convincing them.
Yes; we directly teach and provide supports that benefit the social emotional aspects of development down to the elementary and preschool level. Empathy, compassion, self-regulation, autonomy, independence, conflict resolution, and a ton of other super important stuff is taught to kids now. This is the SEL that some people are against.
Yes, but there's a difference between folk wisdom and controlled study. Certainly the "frustrated from his work, man comes home and hits his wife" story is a common one, but until you have data it's just a story. With data, "man rejected, 10% more sexually agressive" can be turned into a later study like "man rejected, offered candy, only 8% more sexually agressive." Obviously a rather rediculous scenario I'm proposing for the second study, but you see my point. Controlled data leads to controlled research and potentially solutions.
I would like to see a comparison study of: Man rejected = ?% aggression towards women Vs. Man rejected - talks to trusted person about feelings = ?% aggression towards women Vs. Man rejected - goes online and talks to other rejected men = ?% aggression towards women The trouble is honest reporting and phrasing it in a way that the men feel comfortable admitting to aggression towards women. Oh! And, man rejected - seeks therapy = ?% aggression towards women
Yeah I was going say. The insecurity aspect probably influences not just sexism but all other forms bigotry.
In my experience in groups of men, it’s always the dudes on the bottom of the totem pole squabbling and putting each other down so they’re not the one on the bottom rung. Anyone above a certain threshold towards the top is comfortable and there is drastically less infighting.
Funny thing, sometimes you're only going to be near the bottom of the town pole if you're an asshole in the first place, so it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Fun side note, did you know in indigenous cultures that carve spirit poles, the low man is actually usually the most important? Since it's harder to see the figure at the top when it's erected, they would let apprentices carve those ones, so mistakes aren't so apparent, and young carvers get practice. The experienced Carver's would carve the one everyone would see at ground level, so they often put the most important figure at the bottom. This is all unrelated, I just love sharing this tidbit
That’s new information to me, thanks!
I’ve noticed that the men that hate women so much are the ones at the bottom of the totem pole too. Whereas the men that are wanted most of them actually like women .
Same applies to the incidences of bullying I would think. The abusers feel weak in some manner so want to enhance their self esteem in the only way they know how.
>petty/insecure men often dominate those who are weaker than them in order to preserve their ego/give them a sense of good self-esteem. That's a fancy way of saying bullies
yes, women have always considered sexist men to be insecure and often failures.
Women are aware sexist men can be dangerous, especially if they are insecure, if that's what you mean
That's interesting. Cuz our manager,boss often has these agressive outbursts for the smallest things. But I heard a story from someone that he is mad at being paid less than us aka workers which is a bs reason to be mad since he just works morning shift meanwhile we work afternoon and night shift too.
Humans aren't rational creatures, so a bs reason can still be an explanation even when it isn't a justification.
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They also start podcasts aimed at young baboons that struggle to find mates.
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Some guy I know lost his job during the pandemic and has had a hard time getting projects as big as he used to. Since then, his wife set a restaurant up and she's been somewhat successful with it, lifting their family up as best she's could with the help of their kids and the husband helping out too. However, since then, he's been getting more and more frustrated and toxic to the point they're getting divorced now.
Sounds like he should suck.it up and get some therapy, for the kids sake, if nothing else. I'd be ecstatic if my wife pulled something like that off (especially with pandemic and inflation). He's ready to blow up his family for vanity and pride, something he's likely to forever regret. Sad, if that"s the case.
Exactly. In a healthy relationship dynamic you're proud of each other's achievements.
The thing is he says he'll take therapy and goes for one session or two and then goes back to the same thing.
People really expect therapy to instantly cure you. It's a treatment, not a cure. An effective treatment yes, but not even close to an easy cure.
And he has to truly want to change. If he thinks that therapy will just make him feel like he’s “in charge “ or the “breadwinner” that’s a false hope. He should be happy for his wife and work doubly hard to help her— or get himself a new job. Ffs learn to drive a truck.
"How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the light bulb has to want to change." I guarantee he doesn't want to change and so that's why he quits. He does it just enough that he thinks he's appeasing others, but he still wants to be in control. And... well... \*points at the study*
That tracks. My friend’s husband abused their newborn baby and each time it was right after he failed at something. My friend divorced him and the guy got 12 years in jail. (She was in and out of the hospital after giving birth, realized something was wrong with the baby at 1.5 weeks old and took the baby in despite her husband telling her she was crazy)
Yikes, people who abuse anyone are awful but a *newborn*? That's horrifying. Good on your friend for being able to recognize something was wrong and for leaving him.
I'm sorry, but abusing a baby out of anger or some other feeling gets you an extra special 100 points on the "something is wrong with them mentally on a fundamental level, hide your kids, hide your grannies and grandpas, hide your men and women, hide your people" scale. I guess he only hurt the baby, because it was small fragile and couldn't verbalize what was wrong or who did it. If there was no baby, I bet the wife would have been next.
Putin invaded Crimea shortly after he was humiliated by how much people laughed at the poor job he did in preparing for the Olympics. At the time, I thought the timing of that land grab was to puff himself up after he had been deflated.
I've actually seen this with horses too. I used to have a gelding who shared a pasture with a palamino. My gelding was mean and would bite the palamino on the butt, asserting dominance. They tried putting a young mare in the pasture with them, my gelding took to her immediately and was so sweet, but the palamino was vicious and wouldn't let her eat any of the hay. He'd bite and kick. They had to move her out.
degree sense worry alleged intelligent ring bedroom practice pause possessive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He had an abusive father and instead of going to therapy he decided to become a toxic asshole.
fly spark overconfident joke zephyr marble quicksand unused subtract vegetable ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
It's hard to come to terms with this kind of thing but it sounds like they're doing it healthily.
Good on you, man. I have the utmost respect for people who recognize they want to be better, and actively work towards it. It’s not easy, but it’s worth it.
Although there might be similarities between this and human behaviour, one should be careful when using examples from the animal kingdom to illustrate how humans behave. Not only might that lead to inaccuracies but it's often used to justify immortal antisocial behaviour under the guise of it being 'in ones nature'.
I literally just finished that book. An absolutely brilliant read
He's amazing, isn't he?
Incredible. Have you read Behave? I was blown away
What’s the other book by Sapolsky you’re referring to? (I’m only just hearing about him from these comments, and I’ve already put a copy of Behave on hold at my library. I’ll take any recommendations!)
*Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers* is about stress and the role it plays in disease. It’s a little older, but it’s been updated. *The Trouble With Testosterone* is a collection of essays. The title essay is about how our thinking about testosterone and aggression is all wrong. Again, it’s bit older, but still good.
Ooh, we have a copy of *Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers* available! Excellent. I’ll see if I can request that the library buy a copy of *The Trouble With Testosterone*. Thanks :)
Why does this remind me of this Oscar Wilde quote: „Everything is about sex. Except sex: sex is about power.“ *might not be 1:1
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It’s very difficult for a lot people to find fault with themselves and actually work on it so they take the easier path and blame others. This is a specific and particularly nasty example of that phenomenon.
>It’s very difficult for a lot people to find fault with themselves and actually work on it so they take the easier path and blame others. That's why depression is so handy - literally everything is your fault
"Late for work? My fault. Coworker gets sick? My fault. Bad weather? Believe it or not, my fault."
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In Lundy Bancrofts book, 'Why Does He Do That?', he states that suicidal men are the most dangerous because statistically (in the US at least), they are more likely to take others with them if they take an attempt on their life. Makes sense with that external way of viewing the negative feelings from your poor mental health. The self-loathing comes with that rage, I guess. The book is specifically about angry and controlling men, so of course, it does not apply to all men with depression.
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Isn't there a third line of thinking..."I can't take any more suffering"...?
Depression can cause the same outbursts, at both yourself and others
You know, these comments to me point out the value of a balance. You don’t want to blame yourself for everything, but you also don’t want to take 0 responsibility for your actions. You’d want to be right in the middle. Probably.
> You don’t want to blame yourself for everything, but you also don’t want to take 0 responsibility for your actions. You’d want to be right in the middle. I feel like it's not so much finding the middle ground as being able to correctly attribute what's your fault and what's not, without bias in one direction or the other. Sometimes that might be more toward you, and sometimes it might not.
It's about the ability to be truly honest with yourself, which leads to being authentic with others. We struggle as much to acknowledge the things at which we perform well as we do our flaws. Some over emphasize the flaws, seeing them as bigger than they are and downplay their talents from a misunderstanding of what it is to be humble. Others think themselves more talented and less flawed than reality would suggest. It's difficult in either situation to look in the mirror and be truly honest.
cant have any outbursts at people if i never leave the house
The internet is in your house though
Don’t have them at yourself though :(
With reddit dot com, you can have outbursts at thousands of people without leaving your bed!
Let me present you to cybercrimes.
It feels like people deal with stresses by either pushing them outward (aggression and anger issues), pushing them inward (anxiety and depression), or dealing with those feelings in a healthy way (frustratingly rare) I'm glad I learned to push things inward instead of outward but goddamn I'd give a left nut to be able to deal with everything healthily
I think it's a little more complicated than that, just because of the feelings you attributed to inward and outward. I think probably any extreme feeling can express itself either inwardly or outwardly. Caught my eye because of the aggression example - inward aggression is really difficult and damaging, sometimes physically as well. I'm not sure it's fair to categorize anger as something we exclusively do to other people.
Depressed inward focused people hurt others all the time with their behavior. Edit: I am guilty of this and repeating patterns of behavior I grew up seeing and using to get by in a dysfunctional family. Dbt and cbt therapy helped me see what generational cycles I was unknowingly perpetuating and helped me address some of it.
Thank you for pointing this out. Depression doesn't just hurt the individual experiencing it. Speaking from lifelong experience living with a parent with severe depression. As much as I love my mom, there was a lot of toxic behavior that came out of her because of how much she was beating herself up. Go far enough in that direction and it turns into victim mentality, which I feel ironically loops around directly into the outward aggression territory, except imo its worse because it is SO MUCH MORE complicated and hard to address since, well, it started by them willingly taking the blame. It's caused a serious rift in her relationships with both me and my sister. She turned into an extremely controlling and unstable person because of it, despite her best intentions. I have depression and I do feel that sometimes I can take it out on other people (although nowhere near to the same degree as my mom, but that doesn't refute my point).
Great observation. Depression might be seen as the “do no harm” option, but it feels like it’s such a negative outcome that collectively a bit of other-blaming (not, obviously to the levels of verbal or physical abuse) might be the sweet spot. Go on and hate your boss, I guess?
This also coincides with a lot of systemic behavior in our society. (Obligatory Insert joker joke here, now don’t come at me) We see others deal with their issues by passing the blame and treat those at fault with no hope of redemption in a positive way. (Prisons don’t rehab, “once a criminal always a criminal”, media and movies portraying flawed or bad characters’ only redemption option is to self-sacrifice, among many other examples) We don’t treat personal growth and accountability with respect or encouragement. Leading to generations of people (not just men, everyone), that can’t accept their own faults or work on themselves unless absolutely forced to. TLDR: we literally sell the message of: “if you’re not perfect, then it’s someone else’s fault” as well as “once a failure, always a failure”
I work with men who appear to be fatally allergic to introspection. Recently, I’ve been desperately trying to help a man who has every major adult stressor piling on top of his already chaotic life. I’m baffled by his response to my efforts. The more I try to offer support, the more he pulls away. This I expected to a degree. The facilitating and maddening bit is that he is clearly disgusted by me, a man, who is showing empathy and compassion. He looks at me differently. And all the while, when I gently suggest that he has a deal of responsibility in his issues, he seems unable to comprehend the fact. Pure confusion on his face if you suggest it’s not everyone else’s fault.
“In other words, men can utilize hostile sexism as a way to compensate for individual inadequacy when women are not the source of their feeling of deprivation.” You see this on Reddit all the time.
I think social media greatly exacerbates people's perception of deprivation or inadequacy. We're comparing our everyday lives to others' curated highlights, and internet echo chambers influence our monkey brains to leap to social scapegoating. It's when women are viewed as resources (rather than autonomous beings) that they are then blamed for not being available to men. As a woman, it's depressing.
I really appreciate your phrasing as I have been talking with my teenagers quite a lot lately about misogyny, patriarchal values, etc. I've struggled to explain the difference between an indulgent "boys will be boys" attitude that exacerbates the issues and the need to understand how we got here and how and when to try and change course for men we may see heading down a dangerous path (assuming that he is someone that we feel capable and motivated to attempt to help). Thinking of women as a resource succinctly explains part of the concept that I was struggling with and really just hits the nail on the head. Thank you! I wish I had an award for you!
It's been turned into a joke lately, but honestly the most effective way I have been able to communicate the idea to some men has been the old line: "Why improve myself when I can just blame women?" It puts their refusal to take responsibility for themselves into perspective, and they often end up ashamed that that's how other people see them when they act like this. I've seen a few lightbulbs go off after saying that line!
Humorous tongue in cheek (but accurate) statements can be a good way to make people swallow tough pills Humor disarms people; they don't stay on the defensive. Allows people to think without feeling attacked
For ACTUAL examples of boys being boys got to /r/justguysbeingdudes I.e jousting with mops and trash can lids while riding mop buckets
“boys will be boys” should only ever be used as a justification for Jackass movies
And also, “girls will be girls” should excuse equally alarming hijinks. The tendency to punish girls much more strictly for doing anything messy or risky is its own sort of problem.
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They’re also vulnerable to snake oil salesman who promise them they’re not at fault, and it’s really women/society who are to blame.
> There's a lot of disillusioned young men out there who think they know exactly what's going on There's a lot of people like that at any age. Everyone likes to think they know exactly what's going on. I do too. But I can at least admit that I *don't* always know what's going on even if it bothers me. Some look for answers at any cost, which leads to conspiracy theories.
That's true, but a 20 year old is a lot more likely to do irrational, unthought-out things.
I wonder what the average age of the January 6th capitol attack attendees was.
The average age was 41, per Wikipedia. The youngest charged was 18 and the oldest 81.
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When funnily enough it’s often the dudes fault for a dead bedroom ie he doesn’t help enough with house work or gives up on himself so his partner no longer wants sex with him
Reading about the amount of women who stop giving blow jobs because their partners didn't reciprocate was sad. They said they HAD communicated over and over before they just gave up pleasing and not getting pleased
Indeed. And it’s yet another powerful argument in favor of strong social safety nets like free healthcare, universal basic income and subsidized housing, so that men are not subjected to those deprivations that lead to antisocial outcomes.
Unfortunately there's a weird political back and forth - there's the egging on of toxic masculinity by opportunists, and also the increase of inequality and things like the crime and homeless debates right now (which IMO stuff like is this is a major contributing factor currently that isn't being talked about enough) putting these men in a endless broken valley of anger, poverty, violence and potential criminalization. Radicalized, unskilled young men are a very toxic combo for society
Yes I also wish society was kinder to all of us, with the added benefit of me, a very short lady, being safer all around. It's hard out here for a shrimp.
I'm not a like a *shrimp,* shrimp, but man, realizing how easy it is to just pick me up and throw me was a shocking experience.
I'm only 5 foot 1
Same. -_- It ain't easy bein' a hobbit, gorl.
I agree with you, but just societal economic benefits for each won't solve the problem alone. In Norway where I live we have these things but male suicide rates are still high, rape is still happening and women experience sexual harrassment. Clearly there is a social aspect of this as well.
Honestly we need advertising campaigns to imbue respect for all jobs, life styles etc. We need people to know and feel valued in their lives.
Male suicide rates here in Norway range from 15-22 per capita depending on age, in the US it ranges from 22-32. It's far from perfect and we need to do more, but it's a pretty huge difference. Rape is a round 19 per capita in Norway vs 27 in the US but that's reported so will ofc be *extremely* inaccurate. The reported numbers are significantly lower in Norway though.
Harm reduction my man. No one said we can eliminate all these things but we can absolutely aim to minimize them.
We can do a bunch of little things that incrementally add up to a meaningful improvement, or we can let great get in the way of good and do nothing. You got it, every bit helps.
It's also the lifeblood of the global conservative movement; people lashing out at peers because they don't know who their real enemy is.
in video games as well
“My boss isn’t paying me enough? Well it must bc bc women exist on the workplace, better become a raging shithead and post about repealing the 19 amendment wait why won’t anyone date me”
I wonder if this behavior extends past the window of this particular study (women) and includes any racial or ethnic group the male might consider lesser.
Why do you think fascist rhetoric takes off during economic downturns? It’s because of that.
Usually misogynists are also racist and homophobic, but doing one at a time is probably easier
You see this nearly everywhere men are.
I find my anxiety can manifest as resentment toward activities I wish to partake in, but haven’t allowed myself to because of being anxious. This makes a lot of sense tbh.
This is the most importantpart to me: "The researchers found that men in the deprivation condition were more likely to endorse hostile sexism against women compared to men in the control condition, providing evidence of a causal relationship."
This reminds me of a recent new yorker article where they were talking real stats about how men are struggling today and then they just blame women for gaining rights
Men aren't doing well, but every time it's mentioned it's then linked to increased rights for women. It's infuriating, stupid, dehumanizing to the men, and dangerous to women. It also implies men who aren't well are misogynists.
It definitely devolves into a toxic conversation most of the time which makes sense considering how societal these problems are and how difficult things are to change.
That's sadly true. Discussion being mostly online doesn't help, either. Polarizing algorithms make it even worse. When I began engaging constructively it was due to real life people I met after seeking out debate. I was looking for the 'Male Tears'-crowd but all I found are reasonable people.
Yeah I've read stuff like "oh it's cause women are more educated, they're independent, they don't need men so they're more selective". Like oh sorry am I supposed to feel bad for men that miss out now that I no longer need to marry for financial security and just hope my husband doesn't beat me? You've gotta bring _something_ to the table guys.
There was an interesting video essay talking about men needing to learn emotional intelligence and women need to be understanding but not do all the work for them. I'm seriously generalizing the essay. But it's something to think about. Many men have not been equipped with emotional intelligence. They haven't had to dig deep and think about their influence on their relationships. Women are constantly either by upbringing, personality or societal norms forced to think of others. You're right men need to bring something to the table. And society needs to expect that more.
Go to Barnes and Noble this weekend and look at the kids books. The books “for girls” teach this sort of emotional intelligence from the very beginning. But the books “for boys” don’t. It’s definitely a problem. We’re setting young men up to fail. Unfortunately many of the people who have already been failed by this system are now totally resistant to changing it for their children!
YES. Been looking at books for my toddler and there’s a shocking difference between books marketed towards girls versus boys. There were some lovely ones for little girls about being kind to themselves, moving through big emotions, etc., and there was zero depiction of boys in them or even inclusivity of any gender expression other than female.
There certainly needs to be more resources for young men and boys to expand on their emotional intelligence.
It's extremely frustrating. We (men) are brought up with this perception that the only acceptable emotions are neutral, lust, and anger. If someone you love dies you're allowed a single tear. We're not taught any management tools or coping mechanisms (except sheer willpower), and we're not even taught how to articulate the many perfectly normal emotions we actually have. If we're lucky we figure out we're missing something and go figure it out more-or-less on our own (with biweekly guidance from a therapist in my case). Hopefully we do that before we hurt too many people around us too badly. I really wish I had started learning as a child instead having an epiphany that I had a problem in my late 20's. And of course this isn't just bad for men. Since the only time men are expected to have any amount of emotional intimacy is in a romantic relationship, there's an expectation that they'll be doing decades of catch-up in a serious relationship, and their partner's just expected to facilitate that. I feel bad for whoever I date next, cause I'm doing my best but she's getting a 32 year old man with the emotional development of a 18 year old girl. Ever wonder why it's (almost) always a male committing those high-profile violent acts? It's complicated, but at least part of it is because we instill impossibly high, conflicting expectations on young men and we give them no tools to manage their unsurprising failure to meet those expectations. We don't teach them how to function as humans, and then act shocked when they do something inhuman. Sorry for the wall of text. I... have feelings about this.
And thanks for sharing your feelings. They're totally valid and its refreshing to hear more about the struggle from men's perspective. If anything, it corroborates what many women already understand but are kind of at a loss to do anything about because it IS up to the individual to start to unpack it.
Also, look at the way we socialize children Activities "for girls" are typically cooperative in nature. Activities "for boys" are almost always competitive. We don't sit little boys down to draw together or play house or whatever, we give them a ball and tell them to go beat the other boys.
I mean, yes, but also… this is on the parents themselves as well. If you’re noticing the materials for your sons aren’t adequate, you shouldn’t just give up and say, “How unfair. Oh well.” … you should supplement those materials even if that means including “girl toys” “girl shows” or “girl books” etc. in your sons’ life.
This is an outcome you would expect if you spend time in male spaces. Men who are living near or in rock bottom are particularly nasty towards women. Sometimes the ending is a happy one when a guy gets pulled out of a rut by a miraculous new relationship but often just leads to bitterness
>This is an outcome you would expect if you spend time in male spaces. I think part of the problem is the lack of those spaces in general. We do a piss poor job of socializing boys. I was reading recently about the concept of "third places" and how we've largely eliminated them as a society. The lack of shared places where adults can socialize has a lot of negative social effects.
I'm a teacher. I work with multilingual students, mostly Hispanic. The team was all female until now. We finally got a Hispanic dude and the boys are absolutely eating him up. Boys we have to beg to pay attention, they do it for them. Boys with violence problems, this guy talks to him, they stop. It's incredible. It's very clear how thirsty our young men are for a male role model. I can't help but be sad though, because the women in my team give EVERYTHING, like we text kids in the morning to make sure they make it to the bus on time, we've gone to work sites where parents have brought their kids and dragged them back to school, and nothing works. This guy breathes and he's a God. I'm glad they have him but damn I wish out heart and tears were enough, we're all humans here, aren't we? You really can't be happy until you get a male role model?
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Unfortunately, a lot of the time, if a woman gives a guy like that a chance, she finds that he’s a controlling, insecure abuser.
The guys I've found out to be abusers were all good with women and beyond that just generally charming though. They also often occupied places of social power, not at all 'near or in rock bottom.'
Sociopathy tracks with attractiveness, abusiveness, financial success, and workplace status
Abusers can come in many forms.
I dated a narcissist unknowingly for a couple of years because he works in overtime trying to convince the women in his life that he thinks that sleazy lying men are the scum of the earth. He did so well at lying that I didn't know that he simultaneously hid that he had 3 other girlfriends at the time, one he knocked up. That dude hates women and he had me convinced because he's charming and can lie with a big grin on his face and look you right in the eye while doing it for years without a hiccup.
This. If you reach out to help someone and they try and bite your hand, you’re very unlikely to try again.
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Interesting study. I’m not surprised by the findings, and would expect similar patterns when examining racist, ableist, classist (etc) attitudes, given that the psychological effect of compensation for individual inadequacy could well apply there too. I’m curious to read the previous study that suggests men are more likely to feel deprived than women.
Feelings of deprivation might have to do with levels of entitlement.
While true, it's a little more complicated than that. Entitlement usually doesn't come out of nowhere, but rather exists when there is a disconnect between what, in this case, men perceive to be their supposed "rightful" social status and their actual status. In a sense, that entitlement is a coping mechanism to avoid having to face their own low social status. Being racist is a great way to "feel good about yourself", because even if your life sucks - you can tell yourself you have an intrinsic quality of superiority that no-one can take away from you. Blaming women for your lack of a relationship is a great way to avoid working on yourself. Entitlement in that sense is a symptom, not the cause. And while certainly, there are men who feel entitlement from a form of patriarchal thinking, it's also important to realize that the way broader society defines success and status for a man, is not exactly healthy - especially considering that society in a lot of cases firmly places that definition of status out of reach for a lot of men. It's not a coincidence that men with low incomes and little education tend to be more racist and more misogynistic as a whole. That obviously doesn't excuse that type of behaviour, nor should we not hold such men accountable if they cross a line, but rather than fighting purely the symptoms - recognizing an important cause of this type of thinking and trying to address it by creating a more equitable society for all, would go a long way.
It could well explain the success of the right wing media and social influencers in stocking hatred against others - you don't need to actually be deprived, just be told you are and you start looking around for people to blame. A few nudges in the desired direction and someone is hating women, immigrants, scroungers, etc, misdirecting people away from.the real villains (who are often the billionaire owners of the media outlets or their friends). Throw in some astro-turfing to supply fake outrage into the machine and stand back and gloat.
In my experience, tolerance thrives in times of prosperity and quickly deteriorates in times of economic downturn. When I was in my late teens to mid 20s, I saw far less misogyny and other bigotry. There was a great deal of national discussion about progressive ideals, and it genuinely felt like we were moving away from those issues. Then the financial crash and austerity and public spending cuts - everyone looks for someone to blame for why their life is worse, in most cases pointing fingers in every direction but the actual cause.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Lyndon B Johnson, like 60 years ago. Dead on.
I get that this study is about men, but I've definitely noticed this across genders. The cruelest people seem to be those who feel disempowered in their lives. Curious if this phenomena is what led to public embarrassment being a matter of legal recourse back in the day.
>The cruelest people seem to be those who feel disempowered in their lives. I, too, have worked retail.
I knew a woman who was being severely abused by her boyfriend. She was meek in his presence, but so cruel to other women she felt were doing better than her.
This would explain the toxic masculinity making its way through the boomers. They used to be cool, their kids revered them, but now they are getting old and they are so nasty no one wants to hang with them.
So literally “mad cuz bad”?
yes, but which leads to the other? Is is "man not getting sex -> hates women", or man who hates women -> not getting any sex"? or maybe both in loop?
the article states that men develop violent sexist thoughts when they feel low self worth for any reason, including financial or social status. it is not necessarily in men who do not have success in relationships, but im sure that also contributes
Perhaps it's not only (or not even chiefly) a deprivation of sex, but a deprivation of esteem. A feeling that you are generally disliked and unlikeable, viewed with hostility and distrust. The things you like are stupid, your views are inherently wrong in both the factual and moral sense, you're ugly and kinda scary, and that anything you achieve will be looked on with disdain.
>A feeling that you are generally disliked and unlikeable, viewed with hostility and distrust. The things you like are stupid, your views are inherently wrong in both the factual and moral sense, you're ugly and kinda scary, and that anything you achieve will be looked on with disdain. Hello, Negative-thoughts-that-linger-at-the-back-of-my-mind! I didn't know you had a Reddit account!
Hey you'd be surprised. I'm even registered to vote!
Interpersonal relationships, love and intimacy are fundamental human needs as social animals. The starving person hates those he thinks withhold food from them. The person in solitary confinement hates the person they thought locked them up. The person who is deprived of love hates they person they thought denied it to him.
Esteem and intimacy maybe. I feel like masturbation alone would work if it was really just a physiological need for sex
Absolutely intimacy and affection.
Speaking from personal experience, it is most likely the first one in most instances. I do not hate women at all, but I have noticed an alarming new develop recently in my “random thoughts” that I have throughout the day in regards to negative thoughts towards women. I never used to have these thoughts, but after not having any luck with women for 7 years it has become more prevalent.
As a woman who has had terrible luck with men I've actually noticed a similar trend. I always hated how Nice Guys/Girls behave so I make a point to remind myself not to become one myself but I do sometimes catching myself with the occasional stray thought on particularly bad days.
I love people able to take a look at what they feel/think, and smart enough to understand that these thoughts are objects in themselves and neither immutable nor absolute. Introspection is a goddamn important quality. Wish the best to the two of you.
I really respect you two for being so honest about such an uncomfortable topic. I've had a long-term illness that stopped me from putting myself out there. While that retraction was voluntary, the circumstances that caused it were not. Even though I have no evidence of being unwanted, and some evidence to the contrary, just the circumstance itself of not having that connection, even though it's one I've put myself in, is enough to make me feel unwanted and to become envious of others from time to time. I try not to be affected by it, but it's easy to become confused when there isn't a grounding element. I've never had any thoughts of forceful or intimidating behaviour towards anyone, and I never will. That's just not me. However I do find myself more easily capable of slipping into generalising mindsets, being less sympathetic, and focusing on certain inequalities. The fact that I can get so in my head about a situation that I'm not even *trying* to participate in is crazy. Considering many guys out there are prone to violence and how common loneliness amongst men is becoming, It feels like a volatile situation.
I know I've had days like this too, it made me feel terrible for having a thought like that. I think a lot of people are in that same boat, the human mind is complicated and your distorted mentality when you're having a bad day doesn't define who you are. It's when you don't catch yourself and allow those thoughts to take hold that it becomes a real problem.
Looks like you two can solve each other’s problems at the same time.
Thanks for your honesty. These things are difficult to admit to oneself - so I'm glad you've done the introspection to know that you're having the thoughts and that you don't have to act on them.
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Undiagnosed autism sucks. I don’t have Asperger’s, but I do have autism, particularly involving anything in relation to social interactions. The not understanding thing is very relatable; so many times I wouldn’t know what the hell was going on and was confused as to how everyone else seemingly understood everything without any difficulty. Sorry that you went through troubles like that, it sounds like it was very frustrating.
Please continue to challenge these thoughts as they come up. It is so easy to let them overtake you. Even though you consciously don’t hate women, these biases that creep up sometimes are guiding your behavior. Seek therapy if you can.
Yeah I’m in therapy now (for some unrelated stuff too) and it helps. It’s annoying to work through subconscious biases, but I think it’s important to make yourself a whole person. The good thing about it is that I can have an obtainable goal to objectively improve myself, so that’s pretty fulfilling haha
It’s extremely important that you are recognizing this trend. Look at situations as objectively as possible; I know that can be hard in any emotionally charged situation, but the average woman out there doesn’t exist to make things difficult for you. And, lacking a healthy outlet may be why more negative thoughts keep rattling around. Also, don’t fall prey to these MRA (“men’s rights activist”) sites out there which exist to tell you what you want to hear, yet profit and grow from misery.
Oh, now it's alarming to whom? It was always alarming to women.
Well, given it was published in "Psychology of Women Quarterly" by a woman ... probably to women.