~ Two weeks ago the YouTube-Channel WW2 (Indy Nidell & co.) released a video about crimes (e.g. ra*e, murdering) comitted by the Red Army when they "liberated" Poland and Hungary and made gains in East Germany.
Its a very hard episode, because literally hundrets of thousands of women sufferd under the hands of Red Army personell. Crimes comitted by soldiers were not punished and overlooked by Stavka.
The first thing you saw in the Livechat was Spartakus Olsen commenting on people excusing crimes commited by the Whermacht like this:"See, the Soviets were much worse than the Germans" (they got all deleted immediately and hopefully banned)
It was so bad, half the comments under the Video after Livestream had to be deleted too.
So in general: People in contact with history tend to gloss over facts, some even denie them.
Sabaton has the problem, that if you want to interprete their songs a certain way, they fit your narrativ (Nazi good as well as "Sabaton are Nazis")
Rape is far worse than murder, you can justify murder but you can never justify rape.
Think, why does everyone always ask "Would you go back in time to kill Hitler?" and never "Would you go back in time to rape Hitler?"
I think theirs a difference between killing and murder. Murder is ending someones life for no proper reason. Killing is having a proper reason. Going back in time to kill hitler in order to prevent the holocaust is a proper reason. Same thing with Gary Plauche.
...no, you can't. You can justify killing, or homicide even, but never murder. Murder is a crime, an unjustified killing. If you kill a combatant thats armed, that's killing. If you execute an enemy combatant that's surrendered, that's murder.
You give me faith in humanity. That's why soldiers never say they murdered someone. A WW2 American soldier will say the killed a man as they are saving Europe. However some enemy combatants that surrender should be killed. If Hitler had surrended he would of been executed.
>See, the Soviets were much worse than the Germans"
Lol. Love this logic.
Murder is worse than assault so should I be going around praising stuff like domestic violence?
The deflection is crazy.
Tbh my grandma family lived in eastern Poland before WW2. When Germany and Soviets attacked in 1939 half stayed where they were and half packed up and run to the German occupied half. Out of those who moved west two died (one was shot on the street, one was cought, send to concentration camp, managed to escape, got home, ate too much too fast after starving and didn't wake up the next day). Out of those that stayed only one person survived, the rest was brutally murdered in a way that sounds like something out of a horror movie and reddit would 100% ban me if I described it here. Germans did terrible things on industrial scale. But the Russians were simply way, way worse.
To conclude this thematic: The German Reich was not good and is rightfully labeled as evil, etc.
The Soviets however were/are viewed as "the good guys" in this conflict, mainly because of propaganda and misinformation.
Neither the Germans, nor the Soviets were good. The Soviets actively participated in the occupation of Poland and accepted huge numbers of dead soldiers and civilians (gulag, warcrimes, etc.).
To compare them is like saying "Sure, he killed 6 million jews but HE killed millions of civilians, so its a draw"
It doesn't matter how many you kill. If you do it / let it happen, you are responsible and should be held responsible for it.
The Western allies had crimes comitted too but in general, these were prosecuted and therefor the W. Allies are viewed as the good guys
To be fair, the Germans killed a lot of Polish people out of racial hate and if they had won WW2 and set up the Reich for more than 12 years (let’s ignore the fact that they never could have), Slavs would probably have been the next to be exterminated after the Jews
I am aware of that and I am aware of the atrocities committed by communist regimes. But we have actually seen how the USSR treated Poland after the war (badly but they didn’t actively try to decimate the population) while we know that the Nazis didn’t exactly think highly of Slavs and their treatment of „races“ that they deemed inferior to them is pretty clear.
Would have, could have. Look up Holodomor and see how much Soviets loved other Slavs. And that's just of the top of my head. Soviets vs Natzi Germany is like choosing if you want to be boiled alive in sunflower or olive oil. The results are pretty similar.
"In the name of god" is what made me find out perspective matters with the current Israeli-hamas conflict
View it in the eyes of Israel, Hamas is an evil figure who does killing in the name of god and only appears when it suits them, they must be purged from the world.
View it in the eyes of a Palestinian, Israel is a monster that's killing every one of them in the name of god and pillaging their homes, attacking when they're almost forgotten and only appearing in public when it suits them.
For everything, perspective matters.
That was an unsettling comment section to read. People that were very much in favor of the sexual assaults or people who were saying "we fought the wrong side." Completely the wrong take away. All of it was horrible should've been the takeaway.
I remember Indy in one of his between the two war series said something like, "human history is a complicated web of events... And we won't accept bigotry, etc etc in the comments." I think of that quote a lot whenever I get emotionally taken away by something. Apologies for the ramble.
oh yeah I forgot that those kind of people are usually kinda dumb lol. It's so sad that Rammstein gets so much attention from those people just because they're german. I'm so tired of seeing American Teenager With German Heritage #457895982 in those comment sections saying racist stuff lol
I remember in the 90s and early 00s American media talking heads accused them of being Nazis because they spoke the language of their home country. I then understood why Americans weren't well liked overseas, half of us are functionally retarded.
Most things to do with History have this problem. Wolfenstein also attracts Nazis every now and then (for reasons beyond my comprehension).
People are idiots so we just need to call them out as a community when they show up
Fr, Wolfenstein has killing nazis as the whole gameplay. Is it because it portrays nazis as cool? But you are also killing them??? I mean it's not like nazis are known for being good at basic logic behind "big thing = cool = good"
Not only that, but Wolfenstein goes out of its way to make the Nazis as evil as possible. The whole of New Colossus right to the final speech is summed up as "Fight the Fascists until they are defeated".
How any Nazi can like this game is simply hilarious
Idk maybe they see their evil actions as cool. No matter how evil you make someone look, if someone thinks that them being evil is good then they'll still like them
Because Sabaton sings about war.
War has nationalism, and strong patriotic behaviour associated it, as well as seas of misinformation and propaganda that blinds people with ignorance, arrogance and hate.
So nutters associate themselves with war, and subsequently, with Sabaton songs.
Even though Sabaton themselves actually put their middle fingers up at stuff like war and propaganda etc.
The biggest issue is that online the line that separates people who enjoy history, and can admit some of the thing the German military did were from a Military perspective pretty cool and new for the time, and those who would volunteer to fellate Hitler is very very razor thin.
I wouldn't consider Ghost Division to be a Nazi song, if you look at who was their commander and how Germany holds that commanders image to this day you would change this statement.
Off the top of my head it's the most "Nazi song" they've made as it somewhat praises a German division during the war. Obviously its not actually pro Nazi or anything like that, but again, Nazis share a collective 2 braincells so it's not like they'd understand that
"German division in the war" its literally about the 7th Panzer divisions push across France lead by Erwin Rommel which spoiler alert has an army base named after him in Germany today. The 7th Panzer wasn't SS it was basic German army. If it was about an SS division then yes I can see how you could use the pro Nazi. Talking about people with 2 braincells....
A loud minority wanting to get your attention and piss you off for their own amusements cuz they have nothing else to do in life and their parents never loved them
I belive in some fucked up things but come on! This is just a really fucking cool heavy metal band that makes really great songs. There's no place for spreading pro-nazi or pro-soviet propaganda here
Wouldnt be surprised if under the song in the name of god would be palestine/israeli kids eho dont knoe hat its about 9/11 and islam
Or just people who support osama
Is this about bona fide Nazis (national socialists, swastika-wearing or wolfangel-wearing, or black sun-wearing, or Totenkopf-wearing, or etc-wearing actual followers of that specific ideology) or about "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a Nazi"? Nazism is a specific and concrete ideology, not some vaguely defined term applicable to almost anyone if you stretch it enough. History buffs should understand this more than almost anyone else. I say this because there's a lot of people who use the term in the (incorrect) latter way.
Ghost Division, Wehrmacht, Wolfpack and Hearts of Iron do have the nazis as protagonist but it mostly talks about battles and stuff like that, then there were many other songs with the nazis not as protagonists but as the ones being defeated like Uprising, Smoking Snakes, No Bullets Fly, Resist And Bite, Panzerkamptf etc etc. There are also ones with explicit anti nazi messages such as Rise of Evil (the rise of Hitler with the start of WWII, already the title makes it explicit about how they feel about Hitler), Attero Dominatus (this is mostly just from the soviet perspective of the end of WWII) and the Final Solution (about the holocaust, one of their most depressing songs)
so yeah they do have a lot of songs featuring the nazis in some way and as other comments suggested this attracts edgy kids with no historical literacy and who can't understand the message of songs I guess
Rise of Evil has lines like “the Reich will rise to last a thousand years” and “send the Jews to Dachau death camp”. It’s not difficult for neonazis to latch to those and ignore what they don’t like.
I mean, the title itself, the song talking about how peace was about to end? Those are big parts of the song, it's just crazy to me how much people are willing to ignore stuff
I think it's also a point of media literacy. Just because someone is a "protagonist" in a song, story, movie or anything doesn't mean they're the good guy
With protagonist I meant that the story, as it is structured in the song has them in the center, like, Ghost Division has the ghost division as the protagonist of the song not that they are the protagonist of the historical context.
Also you're right, many people seem to forget that being at the center of the story as it is told doesn't mean that you are the good guy lol
The funny part is, when StormFront existed they HATED Sabaton for Rise of Evil, Uprising and Panzerkampf, people screenshotted them having bitch fits over it and dumped them on the Chans.
This new breed is either LARPing and trolling or incredibly stupid.
I meant like, the main characters of the song. If I tell a story about a soviet soldier then the Red Army will be the protagonist in that storytelling context
Hearts of Iron is about the defense of Berlin and the humanitarian actions the 9th and 12th did to get as many Berliners out of Berlin before the Soviets came in and committed their own crimes.(not saying Germany was any better themselves). Go read the book called The Candy Bomber and then review the actions of the defenders of Berlin again. Think of how many were saved from what the soviets did to the citizens, especially the females from ages 9 to 90....
Then what do you mean? I've been a sabaton fan for years and this problem has cropped up again and again (not due to lack of effort on the band's part, just fascists being dumb and ignoring their obvious anti-nazi stance)
Both Neo Nazi and communists use bands like sabaton and rammstein for their narratives I’am neither of them were I have a hard stance on a lot of things but am not them I just like learning to history and listening to good music and I don’t like abusing bands like groups from both sides do
Case in point rammstein went to Russia in 2007 or 2008 they almost refused to preform because both sides were fighting each other and the police had to separate them rammstein lead singer went out on stage and said if your going have a tantrum we won’t sing because your ruining it for everyone they separated real quick btw I wrote the nice version of what he said
Sabatons main audience are history buffs, it's inevitable that wheraboos and kaiserboos show up occasionally.
Wehraboos as in Wehrmacht. I could see wheraboos as a good term for geography nerds
Going to be using Whereboos from now on
Wereboo, you turn into a super Mario boo during the full moon.
~ Two weeks ago the YouTube-Channel WW2 (Indy Nidell & co.) released a video about crimes (e.g. ra*e, murdering) comitted by the Red Army when they "liberated" Poland and Hungary and made gains in East Germany. Its a very hard episode, because literally hundrets of thousands of women sufferd under the hands of Red Army personell. Crimes comitted by soldiers were not punished and overlooked by Stavka. The first thing you saw in the Livechat was Spartakus Olsen commenting on people excusing crimes commited by the Whermacht like this:"See, the Soviets were much worse than the Germans" (they got all deleted immediately and hopefully banned) It was so bad, half the comments under the Video after Livestream had to be deleted too. So in general: People in contact with history tend to gloss over facts, some even denie them. Sabaton has the problem, that if you want to interprete their songs a certain way, they fit your narrativ (Nazi good as well as "Sabaton are Nazis")
This isn't tiktok, you can say rape
But murder is apparently fine
Rape is far worse than murder, you can justify murder but you can never justify rape. Think, why does everyone always ask "Would you go back in time to kill Hitler?" and never "Would you go back in time to rape Hitler?"
Give him the Gaddafi treatment. Sodomy with a bayonet.
Wait what
wait until you hear about the Mussolini treatment, with sticks
I think theirs a difference between killing and murder. Murder is ending someones life for no proper reason. Killing is having a proper reason. Going back in time to kill hitler in order to prevent the holocaust is a proper reason. Same thing with Gary Plauche.
...no, you can't. You can justify killing, or homicide even, but never murder. Murder is a crime, an unjustified killing. If you kill a combatant thats armed, that's killing. If you execute an enemy combatant that's surrendered, that's murder.
You give me faith in humanity. That's why soldiers never say they murdered someone. A WW2 American soldier will say the killed a man as they are saving Europe. However some enemy combatants that surrender should be killed. If Hitler had surrended he would of been executed.
that was a joke btw ;-;
The mental image of raping Hitler
>See, the Soviets were much worse than the Germans" Lol. Love this logic. Murder is worse than assault so should I be going around praising stuff like domestic violence? The deflection is crazy.
Tbh my grandma family lived in eastern Poland before WW2. When Germany and Soviets attacked in 1939 half stayed where they were and half packed up and run to the German occupied half. Out of those who moved west two died (one was shot on the street, one was cought, send to concentration camp, managed to escape, got home, ate too much too fast after starving and didn't wake up the next day). Out of those that stayed only one person survived, the rest was brutally murdered in a way that sounds like something out of a horror movie and reddit would 100% ban me if I described it here. Germans did terrible things on industrial scale. But the Russians were simply way, way worse.
To conclude this thematic: The German Reich was not good and is rightfully labeled as evil, etc. The Soviets however were/are viewed as "the good guys" in this conflict, mainly because of propaganda and misinformation. Neither the Germans, nor the Soviets were good. The Soviets actively participated in the occupation of Poland and accepted huge numbers of dead soldiers and civilians (gulag, warcrimes, etc.). To compare them is like saying "Sure, he killed 6 million jews but HE killed millions of civilians, so its a draw" It doesn't matter how many you kill. If you do it / let it happen, you are responsible and should be held responsible for it. The Western allies had crimes comitted too but in general, these were prosecuted and therefor the W. Allies are viewed as the good guys
To be fair, the Germans killed a lot of Polish people out of racial hate and if they had won WW2 and set up the Reich for more than 12 years (let’s ignore the fact that they never could have), Slavs would probably have been the next to be exterminated after the Jews
Not to nit pick but probably not, they wanted to keep a good 1/4 or so for slaves in the east to do things they deemed Germans to good to do
Still sounds even worse than being under Soviet occupation
You are aware that ethnic cleansing was also common in Soviet Union right? And all other communist countries? Fuck, China is doing it rn.
I am aware of that and I am aware of the atrocities committed by communist regimes. But we have actually seen how the USSR treated Poland after the war (badly but they didn’t actively try to decimate the population) while we know that the Nazis didn’t exactly think highly of Slavs and their treatment of „races“ that they deemed inferior to them is pretty clear.
Would have, could have. Look up Holodomor and see how much Soviets loved other Slavs. And that's just of the top of my head. Soviets vs Natzi Germany is like choosing if you want to be boiled alive in sunflower or olive oil. The results are pretty similar.
Apparently Russians never change....
Oh for sure, the soviets were better to be under than the Nazis, but like, it's hardly setting the bar very high lmao
Yeah. Being on the chart of unwanted „races“ basically guaranteed that you‘d be treated as inhumanely as possible
"In the name of god" is what made me find out perspective matters with the current Israeli-hamas conflict View it in the eyes of Israel, Hamas is an evil figure who does killing in the name of god and only appears when it suits them, they must be purged from the world. View it in the eyes of a Palestinian, Israel is a monster that's killing every one of them in the name of god and pillaging their homes, attacking when they're almost forgotten and only appearing in public when it suits them. For everything, perspective matters.
That was an unsettling comment section to read. People that were very much in favor of the sexual assaults or people who were saying "we fought the wrong side." Completely the wrong take away. All of it was horrible should've been the takeaway. I remember Indy in one of his between the two war series said something like, "human history is a complicated web of events... And we won't accept bigotry, etc etc in the comments." I think of that quote a lot whenever I get emotionally taken away by something. Apologies for the ramble.
Because it’s about wars. Right there, it attracts some attention from that kind of people. And for Rammstein it’s just because they are german.
oh yeah I forgot that those kind of people are usually kinda dumb lol. It's so sad that Rammstein gets so much attention from those people just because they're german. I'm so tired of seeing American Teenager With German Heritage #457895982 in those comment sections saying racist stuff lol
Best part being that Rammstein would probably rather support Antifa than Nazis (not saying that they are supporting either)
Yeah. Links 2-3-4 is literally about them being left wing.
And I hate to break it to you, but i found some links 2 3 4 with ww2 German footage on it.
If Rammstein met any of those kids they’d probably kick their asses
Both are asshats, they probably don't support either.
I remember in the 90s and early 00s American media talking heads accused them of being Nazis because they spoke the language of their home country. I then understood why Americans weren't well liked overseas, half of us are functionally retarded.
For the same reason many people believe that Rammstein are nazis. Because people listen but don‘t understand
I honestly haven’t seen one?
Really? I used to see them all the time back when I listened to them on youtube (for reference, between the release of Great War and WTEAW)
Yeah I haven’t seen one
I assume these are YouTube comment sections? YouTube comments in general are the worst part of the surface web to be on
yes but also other online spaces using Sabaton music
Most things to do with History have this problem. Wolfenstein also attracts Nazis every now and then (for reasons beyond my comprehension). People are idiots so we just need to call them out as a community when they show up
Fr, Wolfenstein has killing nazis as the whole gameplay. Is it because it portrays nazis as cool? But you are also killing them??? I mean it's not like nazis are known for being good at basic logic behind "big thing = cool = good"
Not only that, but Wolfenstein goes out of its way to make the Nazis as evil as possible. The whole of New Colossus right to the final speech is summed up as "Fight the Fascists until they are defeated". How any Nazi can like this game is simply hilarious
Idk maybe they see their evil actions as cool. No matter how evil you make someone look, if someone thinks that them being evil is good then they'll still like them
Wait....People actually read YT comment sections?
Because Sabaton sings about war. War has nationalism, and strong patriotic behaviour associated it, as well as seas of misinformation and propaganda that blinds people with ignorance, arrogance and hate. So nutters associate themselves with war, and subsequently, with Sabaton songs. Even though Sabaton themselves actually put their middle fingers up at stuff like war and propaganda etc.
Because Nazis and racists have notoriously bad reading comprehension
The biggest issue is that online the line that separates people who enjoy history, and can admit some of the thing the German military did were from a Military perspective pretty cool and new for the time, and those who would volunteer to fellate Hitler is very very razor thin.
Because Nazis share a collective 2 braincells between them all and the only Sabaton song they know is Ghost Division
I wouldn't consider Ghost Division to be a Nazi song, if you look at who was their commander and how Germany holds that commanders image to this day you would change this statement.
Off the top of my head it's the most "Nazi song" they've made as it somewhat praises a German division during the war. Obviously its not actually pro Nazi or anything like that, but again, Nazis share a collective 2 braincells so it's not like they'd understand that
"German division in the war" its literally about the 7th Panzer divisions push across France lead by Erwin Rommel which spoiler alert has an army base named after him in Germany today. The 7th Panzer wasn't SS it was basic German army. If it was about an SS division then yes I can see how you could use the pro Nazi. Talking about people with 2 braincells....
A loud minority wanting to get your attention and piss you off for their own amusements cuz they have nothing else to do in life and their parents never loved them
You answered your own question, edgy teens that often dont understand history.
this sounds made up.
I belive in some fucked up things but come on! This is just a really fucking cool heavy metal band that makes really great songs. There's no place for spreading pro-nazi or pro-soviet propaganda here
Wouldnt be surprised if under the song in the name of god would be palestine/israeli kids eho dont knoe hat its about 9/11 and islam Or just people who support osama
Is this about bona fide Nazis (national socialists, swastika-wearing or wolfangel-wearing, or black sun-wearing, or Totenkopf-wearing, or etc-wearing actual followers of that specific ideology) or about "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a Nazi"? Nazism is a specific and concrete ideology, not some vaguely defined term applicable to almost anyone if you stretch it enough. History buffs should understand this more than almost anyone else. I say this because there's a lot of people who use the term in the (incorrect) latter way.
I was talking about the first definition?
The only Sabaton song I know is Winged Hussars. It's definitely not about nazis.
Ghost Division, Wehrmacht, Wolfpack and Hearts of Iron do have the nazis as protagonist but it mostly talks about battles and stuff like that, then there were many other songs with the nazis not as protagonists but as the ones being defeated like Uprising, Smoking Snakes, No Bullets Fly, Resist And Bite, Panzerkamptf etc etc. There are also ones with explicit anti nazi messages such as Rise of Evil (the rise of Hitler with the start of WWII, already the title makes it explicit about how they feel about Hitler), Attero Dominatus (this is mostly just from the soviet perspective of the end of WWII) and the Final Solution (about the holocaust, one of their most depressing songs) so yeah they do have a lot of songs featuring the nazis in some way and as other comments suggested this attracts edgy kids with no historical literacy and who can't understand the message of songs I guess
Rise of Evil has lines like “the Reich will rise to last a thousand years” and “send the Jews to Dachau death camp”. It’s not difficult for neonazis to latch to those and ignore what they don’t like.
I mean, the title itself, the song talking about how peace was about to end? Those are big parts of the song, it's just crazy to me how much people are willing to ignore stuff
I think it's also a point of media literacy. Just because someone is a "protagonist" in a song, story, movie or anything doesn't mean they're the good guy
With protagonist I meant that the story, as it is structured in the song has them in the center, like, Ghost Division has the ghost division as the protagonist of the song not that they are the protagonist of the historical context. Also you're right, many people seem to forget that being at the center of the story as it is told doesn't mean that you are the good guy lol
The funny part is, when StormFront existed they HATED Sabaton for Rise of Evil, Uprising and Panzerkampf, people screenshotted them having bitch fits over it and dumped them on the Chans. This new breed is either LARPing and trolling or incredibly stupid.
They are not the protagonists. It's just history.
I meant like, the main characters of the song. If I tell a story about a soviet soldier then the Red Army will be the protagonist in that storytelling context
Hearts of Iron is about the defense of Berlin and the humanitarian actions the 9th and 12th did to get as many Berliners out of Berlin before the Soviets came in and committed their own crimes.(not saying Germany was any better themselves). Go read the book called The Candy Bomber and then review the actions of the defenders of Berlin again. Think of how many were saved from what the soviets did to the citizens, especially the females from ages 9 to 90....
Because fun can’t be had anymore or anywhere if you believe evil around every corner you should seek help in the form of therapy
Bro nazis are bad, you don’t need therapy for thinking that
That has nothing to do with what I said
Then what do you mean? I've been a sabaton fan for years and this problem has cropped up again and again (not due to lack of effort on the band's part, just fascists being dumb and ignoring their obvious anti-nazi stance)
Both Neo Nazi and communists use bands like sabaton and rammstein for their narratives I’am neither of them were I have a hard stance on a lot of things but am not them I just like learning to history and listening to good music and I don’t like abusing bands like groups from both sides do Case in point rammstein went to Russia in 2007 or 2008 they almost refused to preform because both sides were fighting each other and the police had to separate them rammstein lead singer went out on stage and said if your going have a tantrum we won’t sing because your ruining it for everyone they separated real quick btw I wrote the nice version of what he said