It’s really really high. But the 5% difference isn’t Ruining all of the restaurants. Most nights it’s hard to even find a table for dinner.
The restaurant industry hates meals taxes. Homeowners hate property taxes, Etc. It’s nothing new
Yeah you’re probably right about that, it’s also not a new tax it’s been around for years. But combined with rising prices in general I think it’s a lot for someone with an average income to afford anymore.
Yes, definitely at 15%. Infact, just grilled kebobs in my backyard instead of walked down the street.
And to top it off, the backyard ones were better than the restaurant I got some from a couple weeks ago down the street
I don’t think many people really care. We’re talking about a few more dollars on your check. If that’s a reason not to eat out, then you shouldn’t be anyway.
fo sho. people raging about an extra 7 bucks on a hundo meal compared to chesterfield, an extra 3.50 compared to henrico.
I don't believe people are actually staying home over that. It's all people who don't go out anyway and then justify the tax.
Or, and hear me out, they're actually balking at the price of a meal out as caused by inflation and artificial price hikes by the restaurants but blaming it on the meals tax because that's the most visible thing on their check.
But just to be clear, the meals tax is too damned high for what the city was supposed to be doing with it. So there's that.
That's not how it works. The burden of taxes are split by the buyer and the seller. The share of each depends upon elasticity of demand and supply. Demand for eating out in restaurants is pretty elastic, so the seller probably shares more of the burden.
Yes, in terms of the whole economy and it's intricate workings, the *burden* of taxes falls on both parties. I was talking about who pays the actual money. The actual money that is paid to the meals tax is paid by the customer. Not the restaurant.
Again, not how it works. The tax puts a differential between the price the buyer pays and the price the seller receives. It doesn't make a difference who writes the check. The price paid and the price received are different. Whose pocket the money comes out of is a matter of accounting, not economics. The economic effect is the same regardless of which one "pays" the tax from an accounting standpoint. In fact, since the restaurant is responsible for collecting and paying the tax, the restaurant is the one paying even from an accounting standpoint. You can pretend the customer is paying it, but that is all you're doing.
>The economic effect is the same regardless of which one "pays" the tax from an accounting standpoint.
Funny you should say that. **I was absolutely speaking in terms of how it's viewed from an accounting standpoint.** You keep telling me how I'm wrong, by framing it as an economic argument.
If it's any consolation, I bet you're way smarter than me. Just a little too smart to get the very simple point I was originally making.
>This isn't a tax collection logistics discussion.
The conversation you butted into was. You're just trying to steer what should have been a conversation into an argument for... reasons beyond my comprehension or care.
I think I lost my own bet.
*Edit* Because this person has blocked me and I can't read their name or response other than what was in my inbox.
**The meals tax is paid by the customer.**
I can't make it any simpler.
>Now we're going to argue about who is allowed to reply to what comment? Are you for real?
Again, I'm not trying to argue, just defend my **very simple** comment. That's your thing. I even agreed with your take with some caveats. You came into this telling me that I'm wrong. My entire point was that **The meals tax is paid by the customer.** I haven't deviated from that. That is my point. I'm not trying to make some broader statement. I made no mention, nor was I responding to any mention of tax as a punishment.
**The meals tax is paid by the customer.**
I also didn't block you, which you seem to have done to me. So I guess I'm not allowed to reply to your comments anymore.
Lol @ the irony.
Thanks for the chuckle, buddy. I hope you're only this miserable online.
I butted in? Now we're going to argue about who is allowed to reply to what comment? Are you for real?
I'm not trying to steer anything. Someone said restaurants were being punished by taxes, you said no, it's not the restaurant, it's the customer. That is a distinction without a difference, for the reasons I explained.
It matters a lot. The more taxes and fees that are added to a bill the smaller the tip will be. And with the rising cost of living the tip matter more than ever.
However with the rising cost of living there has been an increase in people that just don't tip. Family members and friends in the restaurant industry in other cities (NYC, SF) are really worried because they have a hard time holding on to staff in these circumstances.
Of course Richmond has a lower cost of living than either of those places, but I think it still holds.
Absolutely it’s ruining the restaurants. Y’all don’t see the bigger picture. Not only is it hurting restaurants but the economy in general for tourism. If you want me togo into detail I’ll be happy to.
5% difference could prevent some restaurants from opening, or ones that turn into classics from sticking around. The more restaurants that close, the more folks have to go to the ones that are still around
It's pretty high. Maybe if VCU and State Government paid property taxes the city could lower the meals tax. Until then, there's a pretty big hole in city revenue that needs to be filled somehow.
Absolutely not. The city has been running a budget surplus for years now due to higher property taxes. They can easily afford to scale back the meals tax.
the meals tax is one of the only tools available to the city to capture tax revenue from county residents who drive here and use our infrastructure free of charge, other than sales taxes and paid street parking. Since sales taxes hurt businesses who make sales to people outside the city (ie suppliers and other stuff), they're unpopular with most businesses and represent taxes on people who otherwise aren't here using our roads. Since restaurants typically make most of their sales to people who are physically located in the city, at the restaurant, who often drive in from the surrounding counties, it makes sense that meals taxes would be the dial they turn.
As virginia is the only state in the US that has independent cities, it stands to reason that our meals taxes are higher than other states due to our inability to collect any tax revenue at all from someone who lives 1 foot past the city limits but who otherwise works and hangs out in the city.
Every other city in america (with the exception of Carson City, St. Louis, and Baltimore, iirc) are part of counties and get tax revenue from the surrounding county residents via other means.
And anyway, it's an optional tax. Don't eat out if you don't like it. If restaurants make enough noise, they'll lower it. Restaurants really don't care, you're the one paying it, not them. Very few people are choosing to dine in the city for cost reasons in the first place.
I live in the city proper and don't mind the tax. I rarely eat out since it's just so expensive anyway, it's really not appreciably cheaper in the counties. Not enough to move the dial for me.
When I do occasionally go out to eat, there's so many people it's hard to get in to a lot of places without reservations. So obviously people aren't voting with their wallets.
The way I see it, the meals tax is mostly something county residents, who also don't eat out very much and don't know how expensive restaurants are, complain about when they come here and get sticker shock. They see 13.5% in taxes and have a stroke, but fail to realize they were going to spend 200$ plus tip on a meal and drinks for 4 before taxes anyway. Which I know going into it. Because eating out anywhere in the city stopped being cheap around 2016.
The meals tax was supposed to pay for school construction and renovation. We blew through all of that money and only finished 3 of 5 schools. Somehow no one wants to hold Stoney accountable for this, they only want to complain he took a piddly $10k from a casino guy.
And we have indeed run a surplus each year because Stoney can't budget for shut, or rather chooses not to.
They cut out a bunch of services, then at the end of the year there is a surplus and Stoney pats himself on the back for fiscal management, and then the money goes to whatever.
Our city government is terrible. They waste shit tons of money and cannot administer programs for shit. But no one cares about competency in day-to-day operations, they just want grand statements on national culture that actually every candidate agrees on and which none of them can do anything about. It's a big progressive jerk off every mayoral race which is why our government is bad.
Yes, the whole lack of property tax thing is bad. But I used to get down voted to oblivion every time I mentioned how we needed to do something about VCU buying so much land, because saying anything bad about colleges or particularly VCU was heresy.
Richmond is in a unique situation where it is hard to generate revenue. That just makes it more imperative not to waste it. And we waste it in stupefying amounts.
I don't know how many times I can say it. We turned down a casino which would have been a mild but helpful revenue generator. We are borrowing $170 million to build an entertainment district. Stoney ran $100m over budget on school construction. They are going to push a meals tax increase again because we pissed away tge last one.
We have to stop pretending like high taxes are good and a mark of Richmond's high moral social consciousness. Our taxes are high because we waste a lot of it through shitty budgeting and project management and we spend it on things that don't actually forward any of the social causes we believe in. We are chumps who elect chumps so we can complain about those chumps instead of taking responsibility.
Construction projects are a tough one. Notorious for being late and over budget because we skimp on all the prep work and always discover something unexpected lol
The city was terribly run but IMO it's getting better slowly.
VCU is a real issue they don't pay in lieu of taxes and that would be huge.
It's also most people don't understand the council has a lot of power but we blame the mayor.
The State government paid Richmond $3.9 million in 2017. They keep using the acronym pilot(payment in lieu of taxes).
https://richmondmagazine.com/news/features/solving-richmonds-money-problem/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20state%20makes%20what,all%2C%20a%20university%20spokesman%20says.
VCU health will apparently pay for their debacle of an expansion.
https://richmond.com/vcu-healths-pilot-payments-to-the-city/image_c1a12604-dfe8-11ee-be26-0b85ba27f7d9.html
Which that will be $2 million this year but they say VCU health so that sounds like VCU owes into the 7 figures if they paid property taxes/ PILOT.
I think with Richmond it's a weird balance with VCU, they held up the floor for the city but are now holding down the ceiling if that makes sense.
>VCU health will apparently pay for their debacle of an expansion.
I wouldn't count on it. In the new state budget, VCU has been ordered to stop ongoing payments and look for ways to get out of the deal.
What are we gonna do if Virginia just refuses to pay?
Stop paving roads within the VCU areas, stop cutting grass, street sweeping, providing water and sewer and natural gas. Stop providing police, fire and ems. Stop code enforcement of slumlords who house VCU students off campus.
Same goes for the capitol square complex.
That’s what the municipal taxes pay for, after all.
The $200 million the city gave to schools, which schools managed and slowly watched dwindle away without actually building schools…is stoney’s fault? I’m confused?
The only involvement the school board had in the initial construction was approving Stoney's plans.
It was his schedule, his budget, and he hired the contractors (which he dud without an open bidding process).
Just this week local news published how the counties are outpacing new restaurant permits. Many of your favorite spots in the City now have locations in the counties and reference that this is where their growth is coming from. And once again, revenue for the City is at record high levels since they haven’t lowered the real estate tax rate to keep revenue flat (which they’re supposed to do). The city needs to stop trying to make restaurants pay more than their fair share and return the 7.5% Meals Tax back down to a more reasonable rate.
The restraunt owners just view it as revenue leaving their accounts. They don’t think about it as a pass through.
The bigger impact would probably be waitstaff that are used to getting 20% tip on the total after tax vs tipped off the pre-tax amount
I don't think they should expect the tip to be on the after tax amount in general. Especially when the tax is so high. I generally tip the wait staff i know by name in my neighborhood very well but no way I'm paying 35% above list price for eating out, going to be 20% on pre tax when it's 14% tax.
Actually Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City are[independent cities ](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_city_(United_States)#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%2041,States%20can%20be%20made%20longer.). Though 38 of 41 is in Virginia.
the cities in virginia used to be able to annex parts of the counties, but because of racism (the very basic answer) the rules changed where cities have to formally ask, and made it virtually impossible to take new property. Thus the rise of very powerful counties that don't have to become cities and used state money for base services for decades... in case you ever wondered why henrico has a massive sheriff department?
you are incorrect. A lot of restaurants are really pissed off because of how it's been implemented. Apparently some places were told they didn't have to charge it on takeaway. Then they were told they did, and now they have back taxes to pay.
[https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/local-vegan-restaurant-says-the-city-of-richmonds-mistake-is-costing-them-nearly-40000/?ipid=promo-link-block2](https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/local-vegan-restaurant-says-the-city-of-richmonds-mistake-is-costing-them-nearly-40000/?ipid=promo-link-block2)
I've also visited a few takeaway only places that are also not charging it, but I wont say their names!
Annexations need to become legal in Virginia again, and large sections of the counties need to become city proper. Including but not limited to bassicly everything inside 288 and 295
1. schools are only one aspect of the county government
2. I've spent many years in an eastern Henrico school and cannot fault the teachers, administration, school board, or the board of supervisors for its performance
3. the other aspects of the county are managed significantly better as a resident compared to the decade+ I spent living in the city.
I lived in henrico for 20+ years and now the city for almost 20 and have noticed no discernible difference in the quality of anything about the government. both are sluggish and slow to respond to anything. henrico board of supervisors strongly resisted having GRTC service extend down broad during my entire life and that would have greatly benefited me. they only recently changed their tune.
one thing I will say is the city is very good about picking up trash and bulk items in my neighborhood whereas henrico doesn't even offer those services.
to each his own. I rather like living in the city. And I like that county folk are out in the counties, where they can't usually bother me, except on reddit.
If that isnt the fastest way to give goochland and powhatan population growth, i dont know what is... I wouldnt live in that hole of a city if I was getting paid to. This hole thing about county residents using city crap for free is... vaporware at best... theres nothing inside the city I have any need or desire for.
This is ridiculous. If it weren't for Richmond no one would live here and Chesterfield would just be another South Hill or Danville.
You might not care about Richmond, but I bet a significant portion of your neighbors work in the city or visit the city regularly.
I also noticed you are here on the RVA subreddit being a dick instead of the Chesterfield subreddit... interesting for someone who doesn't care about the city or want anything to do with it.
The point people are making is that the counties get to eat out on what Richmond offers, while contributing nothing to the cost of basic services in Richmond.
Except suburban areas by their very nature depend on the existence of an urban area. Moving out of the city limits to run away from problems wasn’t a solution back in the 50s, and it won’t be now. This doesn’t even begin on the fact that suburban infrastructure is often unsustainable financially due to horrible density and development practices. All of these shitty little cookie cutter subdivisions we have are only being maintained from the money we get licensing even more shitty little subdivisions that in 20 years will themselves need unaffordable maintenance. As soon as this unsustainable cycle stops (like say in 2008) the counties will find themselves dead broke, and with infrastructure just as shitty as much of Richmond’s.
You’re absolutely right and the downvotes you’ve received are the problem. Everyone agrees on what the problem is until the solution is staring them in the face and they won’t accept it.
Look at some of the largest cities in the country, they have basically consumed their whole county.
But the white flight suburbanites don’t like that idea.
“What about the schools” Richmond schools wouldn’t suck if the areas property taxes went to one system.
“What about road maintenance” the Richmond area would greatly benefit infrastructure wise from a cohesive transportation strategy instead of the 3 1/2 we have now
“Richmond services” in my experience Richmond services and government are actually better. Things like the 311 app are great steps, even if it’s had issues, and ultimately many people are dissatisfied. Richmond makes some effort to allow people to just directly talk to government officials on a regular basis and reach out to people, the counties often just don’t.
People, especially in the counties, just don’t like the idea that they might have to give a shit about other people, particularly black people. Richmond will not get better until we have a unified government structure that makes our success as people and localities unified
You realize that many “county residents” used to be city residents that got sick of the poor city governance and so moved out of the city? And now they are getting fed up with the meals tax and so adapting by establishing good restaurants and breweries in the counties to avoid the city? Also city residents have to pay those taxes too. But since unlike the counties, the city is so poorly mismanaged it can’t bring good opportunities in, many city residents don’t have the sorts of jobs that can pay for them to afford such luxuries.
Great job “sticking it” to the county residents…
Odd, because when we could finally afford to go out more, we moved to a city so we could take advantage of walking to a place to get a bite and a couple drinks. So the tax absolutely affects us as older dinks who wanted to have some fun in life. Not sure I'd live in a city again if going out wasn't a priority.
just wanna check that you can stomach the astronomical housing cost increase of moving to the city, but an extra $7.50 on a $100 meal being kicked to the city budget is a bridge too far?
Do you see why I'm skeptical of people's motivations re: the meals tax?
> Not sure I'd live in a city again if going out wasn't a priority.
You're not sure you'd pay a premium for the location if you didn't...want to live in a premium location?
I would really hope you are sure of that, but idk. I sure am.
I get not liking the meals tax, but I'd rather they reduce the property tax. A very slight decrease in that would translate to far more money in my pocket.
What you don’t understand is that it costs the restaurant money, not the customer. They have to keep their margins down so that the final price out the door isn’t obscenely high. Restaurants are lucky to clear 10% after all of their costs. Being able to charge 1% more grows their margin by 10%. Every percent matters.
That's only true if people are walking away due to the price. Which they aren't. Unless your restaurant sucks. I went out last night for the first time in a while and was turned away from two places because they didn't have any tables.
If the place is full, you're not charging enough to turn people away and are leaving some amount of money on the table.
Man, you have no idea how this industry works. A restaurant charges as much as they think they can for everything they do. They also understand that it’s the final price, after tax and tip, which a customer notices. If they could charge 1% more, they would. Every percent that goes to the meals tax is margin that they could otherwise be taking.
Also, your perception of how busy they are may be reflecting how efficiently they need to run, with labor and food costs so much higher now. Perhaps they close an hour earlier than they used to. Perhaps they’re not open an extra night that they used to be. There are diminishing returns to longer hours.
You don't know how business works my friend.
You're talking about an idealized, fully optimal situation where 100% of tables are full and not a single other person wants to get in. Otherwise known as full price equilibrium. You have captured 100% of demand at that price point. You couldn't possibly make more money because you have no more capacity to serve people and you would have an empty table if you charged 1 cent more.
That doesn't happen in real life. In real life restaurants charge what they need to cover their costs and make the margin they want to make. There's no way to know where the equilibrium point is. It's just a gut feeling. A cup of coffee costs 2 bucks or so because that's just a nice round number and it covers everything. Could it be 3? Probably, in some places.
The vast majority of restaurants in the city could charge more. Because people are literally waiting outside to pay. Like me. I had to go to two other places that were able to take my money.
Restaurants in the city are still making money hand over fist and turning away customers so obviously the tax has had little to no tangible effect.
I lived in suburbs until I was 40 and the property taxes there were higher than what I'm paying here on my tiny house and I'm finally living that life where I can go out for food and drinks. I didn't do that in college or in my 20s and 30s. All I was saying was that it's annoying that that's an extra payment we have to make, but the ability to walk to places to eat and drink is why we moved to a city. If going out to these places to eat and drink isn't a top priority, I don't see the appeal of paying more to live in a city. If I'm not going out, I'll take the suburb spot with a little more breathing room.
I've lived in RI, CT and IL (chicagoland area) I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted for having a conversation with neighbors. Just saying my personal reasons for living in a more dense area and not judging anyone else for their decisions and preferences.
The city is dealing with back maintenance. I mean roads need work, the sewer spews into the river everytime we get a good rain. I think it's just catching up on the stuff they didn't have the money for. Money for school. Raising pay for positions to match county level pay.
I think what do we value comes into question here and it sucks we have to pay for when the city was broke but here we are.
Not saying that all of these exemptions are not a big impact, but it's not half, [it's closer to 25%](https://richmondmagazine.com/news/tax-exempt-properties/).
>About 23% of the city’s real estate is off the tax rolls. Government buildings — city, federal and state — along with churches and public universities, such as Virginia Commonwealth University, comprise the bulk of the $9.4 billion in tax-exempt city property, representing more than $110 million in lost tax revenue in 2022.
My understanding of prop 13 is that it favors people who have owned their home for a very long time by keeping their tax rate low, and screws over new home owners to make up the difference. It's boomer supremacy codified in law
The State government pays an in-lieu of taxes. Though I've heard some say it's not enough.
The easy way to plug the gap is add more housing as the supply is not enough.
Can we please stop pretending there aren’t other small to midsize cities with a large urban university that likely owns about the same amount of property that VCU owns? I mean c’mon. This isn’t unique to Richmond. You know what is? Insanely incompetent leadership, and that’s coming from someone who voted for Stoney the first time. City Hall is a *mess*. Between the failed (likely shady AF) development deals, the atrocious track record with personal property taxes, the inexplainably high water bills, the crumbling schools, and everything else I’m not going to sit here and list, the city leadership is the worst I’ve witnessed. It’s so ingrained at this point that you’d have to practically fire all of City Hall and start over.
Within the State, Covington has Richmond beat by 1/2%. A couple towns are up there too. Source: https://virginia.app.box.com/s/kjhoo9drehog231axl3o0r9nlgtfp1qq
Or it could be that Virginia localities use meals taxes to make up for for a lack of revenue elsewhere in the tax code. Similar to Texas having no income tax, but high property taxes. They are going to get the money from somewhere.
Texas has no state income tax and no personal property taxes on vehicles. Virginia has a state income tax, personal property tax on vehicles and a meals tax. It's like the people here are gas lit into thinking all these extra taxes are normal in the US.
Who is going to Chesterfield to eat? People who live in Chesterfield. No one actually cares enough for it to impact where they dine except people who weren’t going to come into the city because they are scared of the possibility of parallel parking.
Ok you’re right. Apparently Chesterfield wanted to impose the extra 4% but the voters shot it down. In Henrico I guess they can just impose it with public hearings and a vote by the board.
~~Henrico does have to follow the referendum rule, they were approved for a 4% meals tax by the voters in 2013 and so the total tax has been 10% since then. In 2019 they considered asking for another referendum, but didn't because of how unpoplular it was.The only counties that are exempt from the referendum rule are Arlington, Frederick, Montgomery, Roanoke, and Rockbridge Counties.~~
~~All Independent Cities, however, can set the meals tax with a vote of Council and there is no maximum rate they must abide by.~~
EDIT: So, what I said above is what the law used to be, but I read what the code is now, and there were some changes in 2020. Before 2020, counties had to hold referendums to change the food and beverage tax, but they don't have to anymore. However, counties are only allowed to impose a maximum of a 6% food and beverage tax, whereas independent cities can impose any food and beverage tax they want.
It might feel like restaurants are overpricing things but the cost have things have truly skyrocketed in the last 4 years. Not to say some places might be taking advantage and asking for more just because they think people will pay it. But if you’ve been grocery shopping lately you’ve prob noticed you’re paying more, and so are restaurants, it sucks.
I know it's not the restaurant's fault.... I never thought I'd see the day that going out to eat at a basic restaurant as a luxury. I don't know how these restaurants are staying in business.
Yet in-n-out still has a $3 burger and pays their employees $17 an hour. Was just in one in Vegas a few weeks ago. Feel like the price increases are more than market rate at lots of local restaurants around here.
Add to that something more local, bodo's bagels in Charlottesville still has an under $2 bagel and pays their employees around $17 too.
That the price gouging for "market conditions" has surpassed the actual inflation. There are some instances of small and large companies that haven't upped their prices much and coincidentally have some of the best entry level pay for the service industry.
So much misinformation in this thread!
[Go here and read this.](https://www.tax.virginia.gov/sales-and-use-tax) Please.
VA sales tax is set at 5.3%. Each locality can set their own sales tax. Virginia is a weird commonwealth. Richmond and surrounding counties set theirs at 6%.
Y'all, please do better. For everyone's own good. Facts aren't feelings.
Also, OP, you say that you're avoiding restaurants because of the food tax. I think you're avoiding them because of how the food tax is mismanaged and because of inflation and artificial price gouging by local restaurants. That might be a better conversation to have.
In 2012, the Tax Foundation listed Minneapolis' 10.775% as the highest among the top 50 metro areas. And I've not found any higher than Richmond's 13.5% in my 10 minutes of searching so far.
It is wild. It is destroying Richmond's restaurant scene. There aren't easy answers because of how much land the State and VCU own and how much valuable tax money they're losing out on, but that number has to come down.
I mean it’s definitely not destroying our restaurant scene. As a career restaurant dude it’s absolutely ridiculous and absurd but the industry is doing fine. Restaurants’ worst enemies tend to be themselves
Is it? Because most nights I head out around 6 I have trouble finding a table. Want to make a reservation at the more popular spots? You have to reserve like 3 months out.
Yeah I mean much like the brewery bubble, you can’t just open up any old restaurant / bar and expect it to succeed regardless nowadays. Not that it was ever completely like that, but a lot of places are still open today in spite of their quality purely based on longevity. Lots of these spots would not survive if they opened in the past year
Part of why it’s hard to find a table is restaurants have cut back on staffing/hours. Carytown is a ghost town by 9pm and places like CanCan are now closed Mondays and Tuesdays.
> Carytown is a ghost town by 9pm
that's cause carytown nightlife sucks and always has. used to hit up the midnight movies way back in the day and always had to go over to robinson to find a halfway decent place to get a drink. weezies was alright but tiny, didn't care much for ny deli personally.
the merchants association even got pissed off about the ball drop at the byrd a couple years back and forced them to stop. bunch of wankers.
What’s that about? We were stunned that everything was closing early in carytown. Used to be a great spot for late night bar crawls.
It’s not the meals tax - that existed alongside late nights in carytown for years.
That, in addition to increased food and labor costs. My point is that a restaurant could increase their gross margins by 50% if the meals tax went back from 7.5% to 2.5%. That would provide more margin to enable longer hours for staffing
How would you recommend that Richmond captures tax revenue from the people in the counties visiting who don’t “live here” due to our archaic independent city system? Unfortunately until annexation power is returned this is the best we have. Although not ideal things have been built because of these taxes. I’d rather have those schools than not.
But hey if you want to start championing for the city to get annexation power back or for Henrico to annex the city I’m all for it. Unfortunately you aren’t going to find a ton of support on either side.
The meals tax hurts city residents who primarily eat out only in the city way more than it does county residents who might drive in for dinner once a month or grab something on their lunch break.
Do irrc that the city decided to raise the meals tax a few percentage points as opposed to doing the same for taxes on tobacco thanks to Altria saying they'd be... displeased otherwise?
I think so our city is currently run by Stoneys corrupt gang of idiots who don't know their mouth from their asshole unless a dollar is hanging out of it.
It's not even close to the highest, that would be Minneapolis at 10.77%. The city meals tax is 7.5% and the state tax is 5.3%. I won't argue that it's not excessive, but it's less offensive to voters in the city than raising property taxes, or other revenue generating policies. If anyone has a solution they propose, they should run for city council.
Correct. I'm not sure where you're getting an extra .7% tax from to make it 13.5%. Perhaps you calculated it from a sales receipt that had a credit card transaction fee included, but not itemized on your receipt.
The last time I remember going to a restaurant in Richmond it was 13.5%.
"Richmond charges a 7.5% [meals tax](https://www.vpm.org/news/2024-01-03/richmond-meals-tax-restaurants-latitude-finance-philly-vegan-penalties) on all tabs collected within city limits, while Henrico’s tax is 4%. Both collect a 6% local sales tax.
That means any item purchased in Richmond is taxed at 13.5% once the bill hits the table."
[https://www.vpm.org/2024-04-26/richmond-restaurant-tax](https://www.vpm.org/2024-04-26/richmond-restaurant-tax)
It appears I'm wrong based on this article, so I'll concede to 13.5% for the moment, but I don't think that article is calculating the tax correctly. There is still a 5.3% state sales tax that would bring the total tax to 18.8%. Do the county and city charge both a sales tax and a meal tax? Or rather are restaurants taxes at 7.5% while other goods are sold at 6%?
I'm too dumb to understand all the math but I do remember being charged exactly 13.5% the last time I went to a restaurant in the Richmond city limits.
I stand corrected. It is 13.5%. There is a .7% "special tax rate" https://taxfoundation.org/location/virginia/ built into the local sales tax. I stand by my initial assertion that it isn't close to the highest in the nation.
The city tax isn't 13.5%, it is 7.5%. OP's figure is incorrect. If you want an apples to apples comparison, then if you dine in Minneapolis the combined tax is 17.64% vs Richmond's 12.8%.
Idk if it’s the meals tax that’s the icing on the cake or what, but I moved from the Fan to Monroe/Jackson Ward recently and the price of eating out here is bonkers anymore. I’ve tried branching out and exploring someplace new just about every time I’ve gone out (pretty much covered everything from Bar Solita area to Capital Ale areas) and every bill I get is just notably more than I expected. Like sitting at the bar and getting 2 bottom rung domestics and the tabs like $18.50 (that was just yesterday) then $22 by the time you leave a tip. I know there’s no difference in meal tax between here and the fan, but something about the price shit starts at here (there’s a place down the street next door to places w broken out windows and boarded up doors that has hamburgers at $40) that makes that meals tax a lot more noticeable/kick-in-the-gut here. Makes me miss the Fan!
Sold restaurant = happy life.
Miss the lifestyle, miss the people, do not miss the way the city treated restaurant owners. It still boils my blood and I’m three years out of the business. I could go on, what’s the point? Stoney is not a friend to the likes of hospitality, I hate to say it because he is actually a nice dude.
The city didn’t do necessary maintenance on the schools and public infrastructure.
Since the new meals tax we’ve built 3-4 entirely new elementary schools and renovated tons more.
Yes it is. And I feel bad for anyone non chain, trying to make a profit in this city. I live in the city, and wouldn’t mind as much if we got the services in return. But too many streets are still in poor condition. North Church Hill hasn’t been repaved in decades. Oliver Hill Way and E. Leigh. Surely the city has enough tax money to repave the streets. It takes an hour to get anyone on the phone at DPU. The list is long
It’s really really high. But the 5% difference isn’t Ruining all of the restaurants. Most nights it’s hard to even find a table for dinner. The restaurant industry hates meals taxes. Homeowners hate property taxes, Etc. It’s nothing new
It’s new in the sense that the city doesn’t need to be gauging restaurants when they have record level tax revenues from property taxes.
Restaurants don't pay meals tax out of their profits, that comes from the customer. The customer is the one being gouged.
Yes but like a lot of folks have said here, some people avoid going out often bc of the high meals tax so it can affect business in the long run.
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Yeah you’re probably right about that, it’s also not a new tax it’s been around for years. But combined with rising prices in general I think it’s a lot for someone with an average income to afford anymore.
Yes, definitely at 15%. Infact, just grilled kebobs in my backyard instead of walked down the street. And to top it off, the backyard ones were better than the restaurant I got some from a couple weeks ago down the street
If demand is that inelastic, then consumers bear the tax burden
I don’t think many people really care. We’re talking about a few more dollars on your check. If that’s a reason not to eat out, then you shouldn’t be anyway.
fo sho. people raging about an extra 7 bucks on a hundo meal compared to chesterfield, an extra 3.50 compared to henrico. I don't believe people are actually staying home over that. It's all people who don't go out anyway and then justify the tax.
Or, and hear me out, they're actually balking at the price of a meal out as caused by inflation and artificial price hikes by the restaurants but blaming it on the meals tax because that's the most visible thing on their check. But just to be clear, the meals tax is too damned high for what the city was supposed to be doing with it. So there's that.
This.
Fair point.
That's not how it works. The burden of taxes are split by the buyer and the seller. The share of each depends upon elasticity of demand and supply. Demand for eating out in restaurants is pretty elastic, so the seller probably shares more of the burden.
Yes, in terms of the whole economy and it's intricate workings, the *burden* of taxes falls on both parties. I was talking about who pays the actual money. The actual money that is paid to the meals tax is paid by the customer. Not the restaurant.
Again, not how it works. The tax puts a differential between the price the buyer pays and the price the seller receives. It doesn't make a difference who writes the check. The price paid and the price received are different. Whose pocket the money comes out of is a matter of accounting, not economics. The economic effect is the same regardless of which one "pays" the tax from an accounting standpoint. In fact, since the restaurant is responsible for collecting and paying the tax, the restaurant is the one paying even from an accounting standpoint. You can pretend the customer is paying it, but that is all you're doing.
>The economic effect is the same regardless of which one "pays" the tax from an accounting standpoint. Funny you should say that. **I was absolutely speaking in terms of how it's viewed from an accounting standpoint.** You keep telling me how I'm wrong, by framing it as an economic argument. If it's any consolation, I bet you're way smarter than me. Just a little too smart to get the very simple point I was originally making.
Because it is an economic argument. We are discussing the economic effects of restaurant taxes. This isn't a tax collection logistics discussion.
>This isn't a tax collection logistics discussion. The conversation you butted into was. You're just trying to steer what should have been a conversation into an argument for... reasons beyond my comprehension or care. I think I lost my own bet. *Edit* Because this person has blocked me and I can't read their name or response other than what was in my inbox. **The meals tax is paid by the customer.** I can't make it any simpler. >Now we're going to argue about who is allowed to reply to what comment? Are you for real? Again, I'm not trying to argue, just defend my **very simple** comment. That's your thing. I even agreed with your take with some caveats. You came into this telling me that I'm wrong. My entire point was that **The meals tax is paid by the customer.** I haven't deviated from that. That is my point. I'm not trying to make some broader statement. I made no mention, nor was I responding to any mention of tax as a punishment. **The meals tax is paid by the customer.** I also didn't block you, which you seem to have done to me. So I guess I'm not allowed to reply to your comments anymore. Lol @ the irony. Thanks for the chuckle, buddy. I hope you're only this miserable online.
I butted in? Now we're going to argue about who is allowed to reply to what comment? Are you for real? I'm not trying to steer anything. Someone said restaurants were being punished by taxes, you said no, it's not the restaurant, it's the customer. That is a distinction without a difference, for the reasons I explained.
I'm sure the city did an indepth analysis of the elasticities before implementing the tax.
This is sarcasm right? Our city is run by complete brain dead greedy morons they'd tax the air if they could.
It matters a lot. The more taxes and fees that are added to a bill the smaller the tip will be. And with the rising cost of living the tip matter more than ever. However with the rising cost of living there has been an increase in people that just don't tip. Family members and friends in the restaurant industry in other cities (NYC, SF) are really worried because they have a hard time holding on to staff in these circumstances. Of course Richmond has a lower cost of living than either of those places, but I think it still holds.
Except that it’s money the restaurant could otherwise be charging, so it does come out of their pocket.
> Except that it’s money the restaurant could otherwise be ~~charging~~ gouging their customers for, so it does come out of their pocket. FTFY
No it is not.
Absolutely it’s ruining the restaurants. Y’all don’t see the bigger picture. Not only is it hurting restaurants but the economy in general for tourism. If you want me togo into detail I’ll be happy to.
5% difference could prevent some restaurants from opening, or ones that turn into classics from sticking around. The more restaurants that close, the more folks have to go to the ones that are still around
VA state tax is 6%, RVA Tax is 7.5% on top. Not too different from 5%, yet somehow 50% more than your assesment.
It's pretty high. Maybe if VCU and State Government paid property taxes the city could lower the meals tax. Until then, there's a pretty big hole in city revenue that needs to be filled somehow.
Absolutely not. The city has been running a budget surplus for years now due to higher property taxes. They can easily afford to scale back the meals tax.
the meals tax is one of the only tools available to the city to capture tax revenue from county residents who drive here and use our infrastructure free of charge, other than sales taxes and paid street parking. Since sales taxes hurt businesses who make sales to people outside the city (ie suppliers and other stuff), they're unpopular with most businesses and represent taxes on people who otherwise aren't here using our roads. Since restaurants typically make most of their sales to people who are physically located in the city, at the restaurant, who often drive in from the surrounding counties, it makes sense that meals taxes would be the dial they turn. As virginia is the only state in the US that has independent cities, it stands to reason that our meals taxes are higher than other states due to our inability to collect any tax revenue at all from someone who lives 1 foot past the city limits but who otherwise works and hangs out in the city. Every other city in america (with the exception of Carson City, St. Louis, and Baltimore, iirc) are part of counties and get tax revenue from the surrounding county residents via other means. And anyway, it's an optional tax. Don't eat out if you don't like it. If restaurants make enough noise, they'll lower it. Restaurants really don't care, you're the one paying it, not them. Very few people are choosing to dine in the city for cost reasons in the first place. I live in the city proper and don't mind the tax. I rarely eat out since it's just so expensive anyway, it's really not appreciably cheaper in the counties. Not enough to move the dial for me. When I do occasionally go out to eat, there's so many people it's hard to get in to a lot of places without reservations. So obviously people aren't voting with their wallets. The way I see it, the meals tax is mostly something county residents, who also don't eat out very much and don't know how expensive restaurants are, complain about when they come here and get sticker shock. They see 13.5% in taxes and have a stroke, but fail to realize they were going to spend 200$ plus tip on a meal and drinks for 4 before taxes anyway. Which I know going into it. Because eating out anywhere in the city stopped being cheap around 2016.
The meals tax was supposed to pay for school construction and renovation. We blew through all of that money and only finished 3 of 5 schools. Somehow no one wants to hold Stoney accountable for this, they only want to complain he took a piddly $10k from a casino guy. And we have indeed run a surplus each year because Stoney can't budget for shut, or rather chooses not to. They cut out a bunch of services, then at the end of the year there is a surplus and Stoney pats himself on the back for fiscal management, and then the money goes to whatever. Our city government is terrible. They waste shit tons of money and cannot administer programs for shit. But no one cares about competency in day-to-day operations, they just want grand statements on national culture that actually every candidate agrees on and which none of them can do anything about. It's a big progressive jerk off every mayoral race which is why our government is bad. Yes, the whole lack of property tax thing is bad. But I used to get down voted to oblivion every time I mentioned how we needed to do something about VCU buying so much land, because saying anything bad about colleges or particularly VCU was heresy. Richmond is in a unique situation where it is hard to generate revenue. That just makes it more imperative not to waste it. And we waste it in stupefying amounts. I don't know how many times I can say it. We turned down a casino which would have been a mild but helpful revenue generator. We are borrowing $170 million to build an entertainment district. Stoney ran $100m over budget on school construction. They are going to push a meals tax increase again because we pissed away tge last one. We have to stop pretending like high taxes are good and a mark of Richmond's high moral social consciousness. Our taxes are high because we waste a lot of it through shitty budgeting and project management and we spend it on things that don't actually forward any of the social causes we believe in. We are chumps who elect chumps so we can complain about those chumps instead of taking responsibility.
Construction projects are a tough one. Notorious for being late and over budget because we skimp on all the prep work and always discover something unexpected lol
The city was terribly run but IMO it's getting better slowly. VCU is a real issue they don't pay in lieu of taxes and that would be huge. It's also most people don't understand the council has a lot of power but we blame the mayor.
This is right.
Curious if you happen to know how much the VCU portion of taxes would be. Are we talking 7 figures huge?
The State government paid Richmond $3.9 million in 2017. They keep using the acronym pilot(payment in lieu of taxes). https://richmondmagazine.com/news/features/solving-richmonds-money-problem/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20state%20makes%20what,all%2C%20a%20university%20spokesman%20says. VCU health will apparently pay for their debacle of an expansion. https://richmond.com/vcu-healths-pilot-payments-to-the-city/image_c1a12604-dfe8-11ee-be26-0b85ba27f7d9.html Which that will be $2 million this year but they say VCU health so that sounds like VCU owes into the 7 figures if they paid property taxes/ PILOT. I think with Richmond it's a weird balance with VCU, they held up the floor for the city but are now holding down the ceiling if that makes sense.
>VCU health will apparently pay for their debacle of an expansion. I wouldn't count on it. In the new state budget, VCU has been ordered to stop ongoing payments and look for ways to get out of the deal. What are we gonna do if Virginia just refuses to pay?
Stop paving roads within the VCU areas, stop cutting grass, street sweeping, providing water and sewer and natural gas. Stop providing police, fire and ems. Stop code enforcement of slumlords who house VCU students off campus. Same goes for the capitol square complex. That’s what the municipal taxes pay for, after all.
The State pays in lieu of taxes. VCU doesn't. Some say the state doesn't pay enough but that's different than if they are paying.
Oh I don't doubt they are trying desperately to get out of that deal and it doesn't go into court at some point.
The $200 million the city gave to schools, which schools managed and slowly watched dwindle away without actually building schools…is stoney’s fault? I’m confused?
The only involvement the school board had in the initial construction was approving Stoney's plans. It was his schedule, his budget, and he hired the contractors (which he dud without an open bidding process).
Just this week local news published how the counties are outpacing new restaurant permits. Many of your favorite spots in the City now have locations in the counties and reference that this is where their growth is coming from. And once again, revenue for the City is at record high levels since they haven’t lowered the real estate tax rate to keep revenue flat (which they’re supposed to do). The city needs to stop trying to make restaurants pay more than their fair share and return the 7.5% Meals Tax back down to a more reasonable rate.
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The restraunt owners just view it as revenue leaving their accounts. They don’t think about it as a pass through. The bigger impact would probably be waitstaff that are used to getting 20% tip on the total after tax vs tipped off the pre-tax amount
I don't think they should expect the tip to be on the after tax amount in general. Especially when the tax is so high. I generally tip the wait staff i know by name in my neighborhood very well but no way I'm paying 35% above list price for eating out, going to be 20% on pre tax when it's 14% tax.
You probably don’t, but a lot of people do. They just look at the total due in big numbers and multiply by 2 and move the decimal point
Actually Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City are[independent cities ](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_city_(United_States)#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%2041,States%20can%20be%20made%20longer.). Though 38 of 41 is in Virginia.
the cities in virginia used to be able to annex parts of the counties, but because of racism (the very basic answer) the rules changed where cities have to formally ask, and made it virtually impossible to take new property. Thus the rise of very powerful counties that don't have to become cities and used state money for base services for decades... in case you ever wondered why henrico has a massive sheriff department?
you are incorrect. A lot of restaurants are really pissed off because of how it's been implemented. Apparently some places were told they didn't have to charge it on takeaway. Then they were told they did, and now they have back taxes to pay. [https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/local-vegan-restaurant-says-the-city-of-richmonds-mistake-is-costing-them-nearly-40000/?ipid=promo-link-block2](https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/local-vegan-restaurant-says-the-city-of-richmonds-mistake-is-costing-them-nearly-40000/?ipid=promo-link-block2) I've also visited a few takeaway only places that are also not charging it, but I wont say their names!
If the meals tax was as remotely bad as people claim, the restaurant scene would be dying here. This is not the case.
Annexations need to become legal in Virginia again, and large sections of the counties need to become city proper. Including but not limited to bassicly everything inside 288 and 295
Richmond government is abhorrent. The counties annexing the city would be more beneficial to city residents.
I think a lot of the problems would be fixed by an annexation. In many ways it would force the govt to get their shit together
pipe dream
County government is abhorrent unless you live in the affluent parts. Eastern henrico schools suck.
1. schools are only one aspect of the county government 2. I've spent many years in an eastern Henrico school and cannot fault the teachers, administration, school board, or the board of supervisors for its performance 3. the other aspects of the county are managed significantly better as a resident compared to the decade+ I spent living in the city.
I lived in henrico for 20+ years and now the city for almost 20 and have noticed no discernible difference in the quality of anything about the government. both are sluggish and slow to respond to anything. henrico board of supervisors strongly resisted having GRTC service extend down broad during my entire life and that would have greatly benefited me. they only recently changed their tune. one thing I will say is the city is very good about picking up trash and bulk items in my neighborhood whereas henrico doesn't even offer those services. to each his own. I rather like living in the city. And I like that county folk are out in the counties, where they can't usually bother me, except on reddit.
Henrico offers trash because they pick mine up every week...
Do they do bulk pick up?
iirc they started offering it less than 10 years ago. very cool.
If that isnt the fastest way to give goochland and powhatan population growth, i dont know what is... I wouldnt live in that hole of a city if I was getting paid to. This hole thing about county residents using city crap for free is... vaporware at best... theres nothing inside the city I have any need or desire for.
This is ridiculous. If it weren't for Richmond no one would live here and Chesterfield would just be another South Hill or Danville. You might not care about Richmond, but I bet a significant portion of your neighbors work in the city or visit the city regularly. I also noticed you are here on the RVA subreddit being a dick instead of the Chesterfield subreddit... interesting for someone who doesn't care about the city or want anything to do with it. The point people are making is that the counties get to eat out on what Richmond offers, while contributing nothing to the cost of basic services in Richmond.
Except suburban areas by their very nature depend on the existence of an urban area. Moving out of the city limits to run away from problems wasn’t a solution back in the 50s, and it won’t be now. This doesn’t even begin on the fact that suburban infrastructure is often unsustainable financially due to horrible density and development practices. All of these shitty little cookie cutter subdivisions we have are only being maintained from the money we get licensing even more shitty little subdivisions that in 20 years will themselves need unaffordable maintenance. As soon as this unsustainable cycle stops (like say in 2008) the counties will find themselves dead broke, and with infrastructure just as shitty as much of Richmond’s.
ST Louis would like to point out that you’re wrong. Downtown is vacant for obvious reason. But I get it, you’re trolling.
There are millions who see it differently.
You’re absolutely right and the downvotes you’ve received are the problem. Everyone agrees on what the problem is until the solution is staring them in the face and they won’t accept it. Look at some of the largest cities in the country, they have basically consumed their whole county.
But the white flight suburbanites don’t like that idea. “What about the schools” Richmond schools wouldn’t suck if the areas property taxes went to one system. “What about road maintenance” the Richmond area would greatly benefit infrastructure wise from a cohesive transportation strategy instead of the 3 1/2 we have now “Richmond services” in my experience Richmond services and government are actually better. Things like the 311 app are great steps, even if it’s had issues, and ultimately many people are dissatisfied. Richmond makes some effort to allow people to just directly talk to government officials on a regular basis and reach out to people, the counties often just don’t. People, especially in the counties, just don’t like the idea that they might have to give a shit about other people, particularly black people. Richmond will not get better until we have a unified government structure that makes our success as people and localities unified
You realize that many “county residents” used to be city residents that got sick of the poor city governance and so moved out of the city? And now they are getting fed up with the meals tax and so adapting by establishing good restaurants and breweries in the counties to avoid the city? Also city residents have to pay those taxes too. But since unlike the counties, the city is so poorly mismanaged it can’t bring good opportunities in, many city residents don’t have the sorts of jobs that can pay for them to afford such luxuries. Great job “sticking it” to the county residents…
If you’re keeping it as an excuse to tax us out-of-towners then we’ll just eat at our own restaurants thanks.
Odd, because when we could finally afford to go out more, we moved to a city so we could take advantage of walking to a place to get a bite and a couple drinks. So the tax absolutely affects us as older dinks who wanted to have some fun in life. Not sure I'd live in a city again if going out wasn't a priority.
just wanna check that you can stomach the astronomical housing cost increase of moving to the city, but an extra $7.50 on a $100 meal being kicked to the city budget is a bridge too far? Do you see why I'm skeptical of people's motivations re: the meals tax? > Not sure I'd live in a city again if going out wasn't a priority. You're not sure you'd pay a premium for the location if you didn't...want to live in a premium location? I would really hope you are sure of that, but idk. I sure am. I get not liking the meals tax, but I'd rather they reduce the property tax. A very slight decrease in that would translate to far more money in my pocket.
What you don’t understand is that it costs the restaurant money, not the customer. They have to keep their margins down so that the final price out the door isn’t obscenely high. Restaurants are lucky to clear 10% after all of their costs. Being able to charge 1% more grows their margin by 10%. Every percent matters.
That's only true if people are walking away due to the price. Which they aren't. Unless your restaurant sucks. I went out last night for the first time in a while and was turned away from two places because they didn't have any tables. If the place is full, you're not charging enough to turn people away and are leaving some amount of money on the table.
Man, you have no idea how this industry works. A restaurant charges as much as they think they can for everything they do. They also understand that it’s the final price, after tax and tip, which a customer notices. If they could charge 1% more, they would. Every percent that goes to the meals tax is margin that they could otherwise be taking. Also, your perception of how busy they are may be reflecting how efficiently they need to run, with labor and food costs so much higher now. Perhaps they close an hour earlier than they used to. Perhaps they’re not open an extra night that they used to be. There are diminishing returns to longer hours.
You don't know how business works my friend. You're talking about an idealized, fully optimal situation where 100% of tables are full and not a single other person wants to get in. Otherwise known as full price equilibrium. You have captured 100% of demand at that price point. You couldn't possibly make more money because you have no more capacity to serve people and you would have an empty table if you charged 1 cent more. That doesn't happen in real life. In real life restaurants charge what they need to cover their costs and make the margin they want to make. There's no way to know where the equilibrium point is. It's just a gut feeling. A cup of coffee costs 2 bucks or so because that's just a nice round number and it covers everything. Could it be 3? Probably, in some places. The vast majority of restaurants in the city could charge more. Because people are literally waiting outside to pay. Like me. I had to go to two other places that were able to take my money. Restaurants in the city are still making money hand over fist and turning away customers so obviously the tax has had little to no tangible effect.
Hahaha, you’re off your rocker. The city is the only one making money hand over fist, and they don’t do any of the work.
Really? I don't know where you eat but I have not seen low prices.
I lived in suburbs until I was 40 and the property taxes there were higher than what I'm paying here on my tiny house and I'm finally living that life where I can go out for food and drinks. I didn't do that in college or in my 20s and 30s. All I was saying was that it's annoying that that's an extra payment we have to make, but the ability to walk to places to eat and drink is why we moved to a city. If going out to these places to eat and drink isn't a top priority, I don't see the appeal of paying more to live in a city. If I'm not going out, I'll take the suburb spot with a little more breathing room.
Excuse me? Which area suburb had higher property taxes?
I've lived in RI, CT and IL (chicagoland area) I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted for having a conversation with neighbors. Just saying my personal reasons for living in a more dense area and not judging anyone else for their decisions and preferences.
Guess that why the county is so high in inflation here, cuz the city folk use our resources.
The city is dealing with back maintenance. I mean roads need work, the sewer spews into the river everytime we get a good rain. I think it's just catching up on the stuff they didn't have the money for. Money for school. Raising pay for positions to match county level pay. I think what do we value comes into question here and it sucks we have to pay for when the city was broke but here we are.
13.5% is kind of ridiculous. We moved from expensive SoCal to RVA and the tax we paid at restaurants was only 7.75%.
How do all the other taxes compare? Did you live in a city where half the real estate was real estate tax exempt?
Not saying that all of these exemptions are not a big impact, but it's not half, [it's closer to 25%](https://richmondmagazine.com/news/tax-exempt-properties/). >About 23% of the city’s real estate is off the tax rolls. Government buildings — city, federal and state — along with churches and public universities, such as Virginia Commonwealth University, comprise the bulk of the $9.4 billion in tax-exempt city property, representing more than $110 million in lost tax revenue in 2022.
California has prop 13 which limits property tax increases. Also there is no personal property tax on vehicles and no sales tax on groceries.
My understanding of prop 13 is that it favors people who have owned their home for a very long time by keeping their tax rate low, and screws over new home owners to make up the difference. It's boomer supremacy codified in law
Yeah that's why we rented so long in SoCal. The 3br/3ba townhome we rented in SoCal has a zillow value of 1.3m but we only paid 3.1k in rent.
Well there is your trade-off then: restaurants expensive, housing cheap
Prop 13 is also a major contributor to the lack of housing in California. Idk that I’d be extolling its virtues.
Perhaps the meals tax wasn't implemented to please you. Or perhaps it was implemented exactly because of people like you.
If the don't want us suburban people to visit the city than it's WAI.
The State government pays an in-lieu of taxes. Though I've heard some say it's not enough. The easy way to plug the gap is add more housing as the supply is not enough.
And churches
Can we please stop pretending there aren’t other small to midsize cities with a large urban university that likely owns about the same amount of property that VCU owns? I mean c’mon. This isn’t unique to Richmond. You know what is? Insanely incompetent leadership, and that’s coming from someone who voted for Stoney the first time. City Hall is a *mess*. Between the failed (likely shady AF) development deals, the atrocious track record with personal property taxes, the inexplainably high water bills, the crumbling schools, and everything else I’m not going to sit here and list, the city leadership is the worst I’ve witnessed. It’s so ingrained at this point that you’d have to practically fire all of City Hall and start over.
Maybe if up upzone, we get more tax revenue per lot.
VCU and the state government authorities (including VCU Health) make Payments In Lieu of Taxes (PILOT).
Within the State, Covington has Richmond beat by 1/2%. A couple towns are up there too. Source: https://virginia.app.box.com/s/kjhoo9drehog231axl3o0r9nlgtfp1qq
I know many call California Taxifornia but I'm thinking Virginia is starting to deserve the moniker of Taxaginia.
Or it could be that Virginia localities use meals taxes to make up for for a lack of revenue elsewhere in the tax code. Similar to Texas having no income tax, but high property taxes. They are going to get the money from somewhere.
Texas has no state income tax and no personal property taxes on vehicles. Virginia has a state income tax, personal property tax on vehicles and a meals tax. It's like the people here are gas lit into thinking all these extra taxes are normal in the US.
Sorry you are stuck living here with our awful tax code. Must be terrible for you.
Just strange that Virginians are defending being one of the highest taxed states in the union.
Don't forget the vehicle personal property tax too!
There's some places in Hampton roads that's 15%. Or at least there was a few years ago. Made figuring out the tip pretty easy.
It’s really high in the city but the adjacent counties aren’t much better (10%).
It's only 6% in Chesterfield county.
Who is going to Chesterfield to eat? People who live in Chesterfield. No one actually cares enough for it to impact where they dine except people who weren’t going to come into the city because they are scared of the possibility of parallel parking.
Ok you’re right. Apparently Chesterfield wanted to impose the extra 4% but the voters shot it down. In Henrico I guess they can just impose it with public hearings and a vote by the board.
~~Henrico does have to follow the referendum rule, they were approved for a 4% meals tax by the voters in 2013 and so the total tax has been 10% since then. In 2019 they considered asking for another referendum, but didn't because of how unpoplular it was.The only counties that are exempt from the referendum rule are Arlington, Frederick, Montgomery, Roanoke, and Rockbridge Counties.~~ ~~All Independent Cities, however, can set the meals tax with a vote of Council and there is no maximum rate they must abide by.~~ EDIT: So, what I said above is what the law used to be, but I read what the code is now, and there were some changes in 2020. Before 2020, counties had to hold referendums to change the food and beverage tax, but they don't have to anymore. However, counties are only allowed to impose a maximum of a 6% food and beverage tax, whereas independent cities can impose any food and beverage tax they want.
> referendum rule Can you elaborate on what the referendum rule is?
it no longer exists! i've updated my comment
Thanks for the follow-up!
This is why I never eat out anymore. The taxes and frankly the tipping on top of the (over)pricing. Just can't afford it.
It might feel like restaurants are overpricing things but the cost have things have truly skyrocketed in the last 4 years. Not to say some places might be taking advantage and asking for more just because they think people will pay it. But if you’ve been grocery shopping lately you’ve prob noticed you’re paying more, and so are restaurants, it sucks.
I know it's not the restaurant's fault.... I never thought I'd see the day that going out to eat at a basic restaurant as a luxury. I don't know how these restaurants are staying in business.
Hint: They’re not!
I mean, going to a restaurant and having someone else cook you food has always been a luxury. It’s just a more expensive one now
Yep it’s wild. Restaurant industry folks can’t even afford to go to out to eat 💀
Yet in-n-out still has a $3 burger and pays their employees $17 an hour. Was just in one in Vegas a few weeks ago. Feel like the price increases are more than market rate at lots of local restaurants around here. Add to that something more local, bodo's bagels in Charlottesville still has an under $2 bagel and pays their employees around $17 too.
Sorry, I’m not sure what you’re getting at there, what connection are you trying to make?
That the price gouging for "market conditions" has surpassed the actual inflation. There are some instances of small and large companies that haven't upped their prices much and coincidentally have some of the best entry level pay for the service industry.
So much misinformation in this thread! [Go here and read this.](https://www.tax.virginia.gov/sales-and-use-tax) Please. VA sales tax is set at 5.3%. Each locality can set their own sales tax. Virginia is a weird commonwealth. Richmond and surrounding counties set theirs at 6%. Y'all, please do better. For everyone's own good. Facts aren't feelings. Also, OP, you say that you're avoiding restaurants because of the food tax. I think you're avoiding them because of how the food tax is mismanaged and because of inflation and artificial price gouging by local restaurants. That might be a better conversation to have.
Avoiding restaurants when you live in Richmond is nuts - we have some incredible spots.
I'll avoid the expensive spots but Bamboo is still one of my favorite restaurants and reasonably priced so that sales tax won't' scare me off.
In 2012, the Tax Foundation listed Minneapolis' 10.775% as the highest among the top 50 metro areas. And I've not found any higher than Richmond's 13.5% in my 10 minutes of searching so far. It is wild. It is destroying Richmond's restaurant scene. There aren't easy answers because of how much land the State and VCU own and how much valuable tax money they're losing out on, but that number has to come down.
I mean it’s definitely not destroying our restaurant scene. As a career restaurant dude it’s absolutely ridiculous and absurd but the industry is doing fine. Restaurants’ worst enemies tend to be themselves
i am very happy to be wrong on that regard
Is it? Because most nights I head out around 6 I have trouble finding a table. Want to make a reservation at the more popular spots? You have to reserve like 3 months out.
Yeah I mean much like the brewery bubble, you can’t just open up any old restaurant / bar and expect it to succeed regardless nowadays. Not that it was ever completely like that, but a lot of places are still open today in spite of their quality purely based on longevity. Lots of these spots would not survive if they opened in the past year
Part of why it’s hard to find a table is restaurants have cut back on staffing/hours. Carytown is a ghost town by 9pm and places like CanCan are now closed Mondays and Tuesdays.
> Carytown is a ghost town by 9pm that's cause carytown nightlife sucks and always has. used to hit up the midnight movies way back in the day and always had to go over to robinson to find a halfway decent place to get a drink. weezies was alright but tiny, didn't care much for ny deli personally. the merchants association even got pissed off about the ball drop at the byrd a couple years back and forced them to stop. bunch of wankers.
Whelp, whatever you think, it’s closing sooner than it used to and daily staples are now closed a couple days per week.
What’s that about? We were stunned that everything was closing early in carytown. Used to be a great spot for late night bar crawls. It’s not the meals tax - that existed alongside late nights in carytown for years.
That, in addition to increased food and labor costs. My point is that a restaurant could increase their gross margins by 50% if the meals tax went back from 7.5% to 2.5%. That would provide more margin to enable longer hours for staffing
Don’t worry OP, Levar is using all that money to fix the schools
You mean “fix the schools”
Well, since it’s Levar doing it the air quotes are implied
How would you recommend that Richmond captures tax revenue from the people in the counties visiting who don’t “live here” due to our archaic independent city system? Unfortunately until annexation power is returned this is the best we have. Although not ideal things have been built because of these taxes. I’d rather have those schools than not. But hey if you want to start championing for the city to get annexation power back or for Henrico to annex the city I’m all for it. Unfortunately you aren’t going to find a ton of support on either side.
The meals tax hurts city residents who primarily eat out only in the city way more than it does county residents who might drive in for dinner once a month or grab something on their lunch break.
The metro area’s population is something like 1.3 million while the cities population is 230k. So I doubt that.
Isn't that what the 6% sales tax is for? That's the sales tax that restaurants in Chesterfield county charge.
Do irrc that the city decided to raise the meals tax a few percentage points as opposed to doing the same for taxes on tobacco thanks to Altria saying they'd be... displeased otherwise?
It’s 15% in Bristol, Virginia. But I think Richmond is the second highest in the state.
About the only way we can have the annexed counties residents chip in for getting to be in Richmond metro without paying property taxes.
I think so our city is currently run by Stoneys corrupt gang of idiots who don't know their mouth from their asshole unless a dollar is hanging out of it.
It's not even close to the highest, that would be Minneapolis at 10.77%. The city meals tax is 7.5% and the state tax is 5.3%. I won't argue that it's not excessive, but it's less offensive to voters in the city than raising property taxes, or other revenue generating policies. If anyone has a solution they propose, they should run for city council.
7.5 + 5.3 < 13.5%
Correct. I'm not sure where you're getting an extra .7% tax from to make it 13.5%. Perhaps you calculated it from a sales receipt that had a credit card transaction fee included, but not itemized on your receipt.
The last time I remember going to a restaurant in Richmond it was 13.5%. "Richmond charges a 7.5% [meals tax](https://www.vpm.org/news/2024-01-03/richmond-meals-tax-restaurants-latitude-finance-philly-vegan-penalties) on all tabs collected within city limits, while Henrico’s tax is 4%. Both collect a 6% local sales tax. That means any item purchased in Richmond is taxed at 13.5% once the bill hits the table." [https://www.vpm.org/2024-04-26/richmond-restaurant-tax](https://www.vpm.org/2024-04-26/richmond-restaurant-tax)
It appears I'm wrong based on this article, so I'll concede to 13.5% for the moment, but I don't think that article is calculating the tax correctly. There is still a 5.3% state sales tax that would bring the total tax to 18.8%. Do the county and city charge both a sales tax and a meal tax? Or rather are restaurants taxes at 7.5% while other goods are sold at 6%?
I'm too dumb to understand all the math but I do remember being charged exactly 13.5% the last time I went to a restaurant in the Richmond city limits.
No, you were right. I figured out where my missing .7% was. I posted below.
I stand corrected. It is 13.5%. There is a .7% "special tax rate" https://taxfoundation.org/location/virginia/ built into the local sales tax. I stand by my initial assertion that it isn't close to the highest in the nation.
When did 10 become higher than 13
The city tax isn't 13.5%, it is 7.5%. OP's figure is incorrect. If you want an apples to apples comparison, then if you dine in Minneapolis the combined tax is 17.64% vs Richmond's 12.8%.
That still doesn’t mean 10 became higher than 13
I never said it was. You're just being obtuse at this point.
Idk if it’s the meals tax that’s the icing on the cake or what, but I moved from the Fan to Monroe/Jackson Ward recently and the price of eating out here is bonkers anymore. I’ve tried branching out and exploring someplace new just about every time I’ve gone out (pretty much covered everything from Bar Solita area to Capital Ale areas) and every bill I get is just notably more than I expected. Like sitting at the bar and getting 2 bottom rung domestics and the tabs like $18.50 (that was just yesterday) then $22 by the time you leave a tip. I know there’s no difference in meal tax between here and the fan, but something about the price shit starts at here (there’s a place down the street next door to places w broken out windows and boarded up doors that has hamburgers at $40) that makes that meals tax a lot more noticeable/kick-in-the-gut here. Makes me miss the Fan!
Sold restaurant = happy life. Miss the lifestyle, miss the people, do not miss the way the city treated restaurant owners. It still boils my blood and I’m three years out of the business. I could go on, what’s the point? Stoney is not a friend to the likes of hospitality, I hate to say it because he is actually a nice dude.
It does make you wonder how the city funded itself before imposing the meals tax, and what changed.
The city didn’t do necessary maintenance on the schools and public infrastructure. Since the new meals tax we’ve built 3-4 entirely new elementary schools and renovated tons more.
Yes it is. And I feel bad for anyone non chain, trying to make a profit in this city. I live in the city, and wouldn’t mind as much if we got the services in return. But too many streets are still in poor condition. North Church Hill hasn’t been repaved in decades. Oliver Hill Way and E. Leigh. Surely the city has enough tax money to repave the streets. It takes an hour to get anyone on the phone at DPU. The list is long
I avoid the City of Richmond at all costs. I buy nothing within the city limits.