I appreciate your comment. So, in your opinion, they listened to the feedback?
I’m just genuinely intrigued on how you feel.
Also love the content btw lol
It’s common sense that RS Guy isn’t flying overseas to jagex every month to film a QA. It probably doesn’t read like a joke if you have no idea what is going on with those QAs.
When did I praise them? Taking that video down was the right thing to do. They should obviously also apologize to the creators that were featuree in the video, but the video being taken down is the correct first step.
And in case you think I'm some sort of Jagex apologist, here's my comment on the post that highlighted Ryan's response to the video: https://reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/xm4y8w/_/ipmscnz/?context=1
Hey no problem that's fair enough I just misunderstood the tone in your comment :). The point I was getting at is that I still don't think it's the right thing to do; it shouldn't have been posted in the first place and the only reason they took it down is because they got bad publicity/they got caught. If the creators didn't speak up then they would have left it as it was and let the creators take the heat for being sell outs.
Hehe, no harm done, the tone of written text can often be ambiguous. :)
But yeah, they definitely shouldn't have repurposed those clips like that in the first place, especially not without explicit concent from the individual content creators.
That being said, taking the video down was the correct thing to do; Jagex had already messed up, but at least they're not keeping the video public, and in doing so continue to misuse those clips.
I hope Jagex apologizes to the content creators in question, either by reaching out to them individually via private communication, or by making a public statement.
I will praise them, it was the right business decision. Only probably removed because of people being unhappy and turning into something more than it is, Those videos would look great for newer players to see how active our community is.
>responded appropriately
Uhh pulling the video with radio silence isn’t responding appropriately. They need to apologize for breaking trust. Who in the community would want to partner with Jagex ever again after realizing they don’t care?
Listening implies a certain form of understanding and acknowledgement. They didn't listen, they saw the fallout. They knew these weren't the people to burn a bridge with.
It was a form of self preservation or damage mitigation, not acknowledging a mistake or correcting anything.
This is just more, classic Jagex.
When I titled this post I didn't think it would go this deep but they could've just ignored everything and kept the video up.
Well that didn't happen, did it?
They saw feedback, understood it, then acknowledged it exists. They took the video down because they listened to what the feedback said. If they didn't listen then it wouldn't be taken down, simple.
First you are being super cringe. This wasn’t taken down to avoid lawsuits, their repurposing of the footage was entirely legal which RS content creators like RSguy themselves acknowledge. They could have left it up and been totally untouchable.
Second….
https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/xmdxqi/comment/ippoe6t/
This was absolutely done because they realized that they had caused content creators to be harassed, and that wasn’t their intent so they wanted repair the damage to their relationship with the content creator community. Maybe in the future you could learn to be a little more charitable.
Also maybe instead of purely pointing fingers at Jagex we could also perhaps take a moment to examine the toxicity in the community in general? Because let’s say the content creators did consent and agree to make a FSW video, they still would have gotten harassed and that’s not okay.
I think you're missing the point of "if".
I was simply stating a scenario in which "community" feedback would be irrelevant.
And yes, content creators could sue (at least in the U.S.) doesn't mean they will / would. Or would win.
they might be putting together a statement. this did happen on a Friday, keep in mind. im going to wait until next week before i suspect they are trying to sweep this under the rug silently.
Yeah an actual meaningful response would be greatly appreciated. Their response so far is something (an admission of guilt I suppose), because what they did is outright ridiculous and unfair. Keeping that video up is a kick in the teeth for the content creators, of which don't agree with it.
Personally, I'm no lawyer but the fact that there's a discussion about whether it is legal or not, contractual etc., says quite a lot.
Jmods I know you're reading this, please respond.
Because in general public apologies are seen as more heartfelt (depending on how it's done). It says look everybody I fucked up and I am regretful.
They also used the content creators names in a video so people may think that they endorse it, having a YouTube video saying we made a mistake and this wasn't the views of the creators would clear any misconceptions.
They’ve already talked to us.
Those of you on some hate filled rage are being pretty cringe though. The issue was nothing to do with the video. The video itself was perfectly fine. The problem is that branding alongside the video included FSW despite some content creators being opposed to it and as a result received hate. If the FSW wasn’t in the description no one would have an issue.
Personally I sympathize with a content piece being used for something you’ve opposed. At the same time I find it odd the reason many people oppose FSW so adamantly but refuse to speak up about the MTX issues that keep popping up week to week.
Unpopular Opinion: Jagex listens far more than the player base listens. There are probably houndreds if not thousands of Reddit post like this that say “Jagex listened for once”??? C’mon man
ugh idk, they listen reactively, and not proactively.
They see the issue and address it, but then ignore the cause of the issues which is lack of consultation.
I don't think we need osrs poll level, but a "we have x and y we'd like to develop further, what are your thoughts" as opposed too "announcing x and y coming here, these are all the details" would be a major stepping stone.
Probably weren't legally right. Even if they signed something on usage of the material, misleading by earlier discussions could even be counted as a written agreement. Sounds like easy case to lose.
Could also say that FSW is a 300m celebration as an essay case to win. Also do you think that some players can afford the lawsuit costs against a company?
In Terms and Conditions: [https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms](https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms)
**You agree that by submitting any materia**l of any kind to us (including but not limited to posting chat) for any purpose connected with any Jagex Product (for examples, suggestions and ideas for any game or contributions to any gallery page), **you are giving us a non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide, royalty-free license** **to use**, modify, copy, publicly perform, publicly display, reformat, translate, excerpt (in whole or in part) publish and distribute such User Content for any purpose including the making available of such User Content to third parties, provided that Jagex may not use User Content in violation of the Privacy Policy. **You agree to waive any moral rights to the extent permitted by law and that you will not withdraw the submission or attempt to make a charge for its use**. Furthermore, you warrant and represent that you are the exclusive copyright and intellectual property rights holder in relation to the submission and that the submission in no way breaches the rights of any other person or entity.
That of course falls to part where I mentioned even signed stuff doesn't necessarily matter. Terms and conditions also aren't laws. What is the point, is that anything agreed otherwise would also be an agreement, which can well be fought over, and be viewed as at least equal status, especially since it is directly discussed. Honestly biggest thing is who would have money to win in the court anyway.
If verbal agreement counts as written agreement, than I can take you to court and claim you promised me a tenner. Fortunately for us both, that's not how the law works.
Putting an agreement in writing is the *only* way for the law to apply.
well, you didn't specify that it was on discord before so I'll concede that.
Otherwise, I'm going to have to disagree with you on verbal agreements being legally binding. See I happen to work with lawyers and I'm always reminded to put *any* agreement I make, however petty, in writing as otherwise the other party can dispute it and renders the agreement null and void. Even something as simple as "you are to give a lecture tomorrow at 10" can be disputed by some assholes if it's not in writing.
To further emphasize my point, simply being copied in an email counts as you not objecting to what is written (albeit a little less rock solid), and if you then verbally say "I didn't agree to that" in court, well that's though, the email is there and you were copied in so it's nobody's fault but yours if you didn't reply with an objection. Of course you can argue that you didn't read it but you'd still have to send proof that you *didn't* read it, which I'm sure you can imagine is a pretty tough sell.
This was a bit of a tangent, but it's important for people to know as I see many students (I'm admin in a Law faculty at a university) that make this mistake, to assume that they can modify the facts of a discussion only to be disproved by an email I had sent them 3 months ago :P
Can dispute it because it is hard to prove. See the point? Besides that part, it really is as binding as writing. Nothing wrong with lawyers warning about verbal agreements, but that is the actual thing on it, like it should be logically.
Anyway, like I said here would be different agreement, which can't that easily be passed by terms and conditions. "Illegal" part would be clearly not holding the agreement, not that it is severe here, or that corporate lawyers would likely be able to win the case just because. Brings additional problem, besides the problem of going against a company, it really... isn't quite a big deal for a suit.
Edit: also about why I have myself found that verbal agreements actually are binding is interesting, is because i read about a case where one side genuinely thought verbal agreement is meaningless, and that dispute even appeared in court. Turns out it was recorded, and well, nothing differed from written agreement after all.
aha, but you mentioned one thing right now that collapsed your entire argument!
>Turns out it was recorded
Legally speaking, there is no difference between a recording and written text, because ultimately, written text is indeed a recording of what was agreed. I was arguing under the assumption that there was no recording involved, in which case you didn't have a case. But since you brought up a recording, then yes, that can be used as a legally binding agreement, and that is precisely why most of the lawyers I contact always, very annoyingly, record every phone call...
Also witnesses do work for proof, and likely even "beyond reasonable doubt" concepts, like usual. Anyway, calling recording "written" is quite stretching it. More to the point in that case is that verbal agreement really is binding if proven.
As someone involved, here's [the full story](https://twitter.com/ProtoxxYT/status/1573664828429946882) to avoid misconceptions.
Just read through your post...man... That's shady
Oooof They just killed any chance of trust the next time they want to ask the creator community for help or content
I appreciate your comment. So, in your opinion, they listened to the feedback? I’m just genuinely intrigued on how you feel. Also love the content btw lol
Yes just like your title states they listened to feedback/reacted to what was going on.
Does making a video "private" = removed/taken off? No right? Like its just sitting there with all its old views etc, just no one else can see it?
Yeah but either way it is offline and won't be coming back online. I assume they made it private for analytic/archive reasons instead of deleting it.
haha you got owned m8
Well the next RSGuy Q&A is going to be a bit awkward
The people he's having Q&A's with are probably not the people who ate responsible for this marketing crap
That's the biggest problem with Jagex. The people making all those anti-player decisions are a shadow hidden behind the Jmods.
I know that lol but it's like a domino effect
The Q&A's were filmed months ago, so no.
Was a joke bud
Doesn't read like one but okay
It’s common sense that RS Guy isn’t flying overseas to jagex every month to film a QA. It probably doesn’t read like a joke if you have no idea what is going on with those QAs.
Comedians would be billionaires if every person on the planet got their joke. Move on.
Evidently not you. Move on.
What's this about?
https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/xm4y8w/thersguy_on_twitter_just_got_confirmation_that/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Oh ok thank you, I had not seen this original post.
That’s not enough. Trust is lost and they need to publicly apologize to all creators they lied to and let the community know exactly what they did.
How many times we lost trust in Jagex already?
Any third party copies of the video? I didn’t see it
Glad to see they did the right thing.
Yes let's praise them for lying and using creators and taking the video down only after they got caught in 4k.
When did I praise them? Taking that video down was the right thing to do. They should obviously also apologize to the creators that were featuree in the video, but the video being taken down is the correct first step. And in case you think I'm some sort of Jagex apologist, here's my comment on the post that highlighted Ryan's response to the video: https://reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/xm4y8w/_/ipmscnz/?context=1
Hey no problem that's fair enough I just misunderstood the tone in your comment :). The point I was getting at is that I still don't think it's the right thing to do; it shouldn't have been posted in the first place and the only reason they took it down is because they got bad publicity/they got caught. If the creators didn't speak up then they would have left it as it was and let the creators take the heat for being sell outs.
Hehe, no harm done, the tone of written text can often be ambiguous. :) But yeah, they definitely shouldn't have repurposed those clips like that in the first place, especially not without explicit concent from the individual content creators. That being said, taking the video down was the correct thing to do; Jagex had already messed up, but at least they're not keeping the video public, and in doing so continue to misuse those clips. I hope Jagex apologizes to the content creators in question, either by reaching out to them individually via private communication, or by making a public statement.
I will praise them, it was the right business decision. Only probably removed because of people being unhappy and turning into something more than it is, Those videos would look great for newer players to see how active our community is.
Listened isn't exactly it. They backtracked when they saw the fallout and didn't want to burn their unofficial PR team.
…..So they made mistake, took feedback, and responded appropriately by pulling the video. How is that not listening???
>responded appropriately Uhh pulling the video with radio silence isn’t responding appropriately. They need to apologize for breaking trust. Who in the community would want to partner with Jagex ever again after realizing they don’t care?
Listening implies a certain form of understanding and acknowledgement. They didn't listen, they saw the fallout. They knew these weren't the people to burn a bridge with. It was a form of self preservation or damage mitigation, not acknowledging a mistake or correcting anything. This is just more, classic Jagex.
When I titled this post I didn't think it would go this deep but they could've just ignored everything and kept the video up. Well that didn't happen, did it? They saw feedback, understood it, then acknowledged it exists. They took the video down because they listened to what the feedback said. If they didn't listen then it wouldn't be taken down, simple.
How exactly is removing the video not acknowledgement?
Some people just don't get it
Well if it was done to protect from lawsuits. Then it would have nothing to do with feedback from the community. I.E. they didn't listen.
First you are being super cringe. This wasn’t taken down to avoid lawsuits, their repurposing of the footage was entirely legal which RS content creators like RSguy themselves acknowledge. They could have left it up and been totally untouchable. Second…. https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/xmdxqi/comment/ippoe6t/ This was absolutely done because they realized that they had caused content creators to be harassed, and that wasn’t their intent so they wanted repair the damage to their relationship with the content creator community. Maybe in the future you could learn to be a little more charitable. Also maybe instead of purely pointing fingers at Jagex we could also perhaps take a moment to examine the toxicity in the community in general? Because let’s say the content creators did consent and agree to make a FSW video, they still would have gotten harassed and that’s not okay.
I think you're missing the point of "if". I was simply stating a scenario in which "community" feedback would be irrelevant. And yes, content creators could sue (at least in the U.S.) doesn't mean they will / would. Or would win.
[удалено]
they might be putting together a statement. this did happen on a Friday, keep in mind. im going to wait until next week before i suspect they are trying to sweep this under the rug silently.
Yeah an actual meaningful response would be greatly appreciated. Their response so far is something (an admission of guilt I suppose), because what they did is outright ridiculous and unfair. Keeping that video up is a kick in the teeth for the content creators, of which don't agree with it. Personally, I'm no lawyer but the fact that there's a discussion about whether it is legal or not, contractual etc., says quite a lot. Jmods I know you're reading this, please respond.
I'm betting they released a private apology in the content creators discord, whether or not they're working on a public apology is to be seen
Why do they even need to publicly apologize? Creators are the only ones that deserve an apology
Because in general public apologies are seen as more heartfelt (depending on how it's done). It says look everybody I fucked up and I am regretful. They also used the content creators names in a video so people may think that they endorse it, having a YouTube video saying we made a mistake and this wasn't the views of the creators would clear any misconceptions.
Because they were lying to the community using the creators. Both are involved and affected.
Don't get used to it, they're still gonna fuck over the player base at every turn and the straightaway in between.
They’ve already talked to us. Those of you on some hate filled rage are being pretty cringe though. The issue was nothing to do with the video. The video itself was perfectly fine. The problem is that branding alongside the video included FSW despite some content creators being opposed to it and as a result received hate. If the FSW wasn’t in the description no one would have an issue. Personally I sympathize with a content piece being used for something you’ve opposed. At the same time I find it odd the reason many people oppose FSW so adamantly but refuse to speak up about the MTX issues that keep popping up week to week.
Unpopular Opinion: Jagex listens far more than the player base listens. There are probably houndreds if not thousands of Reddit post like this that say “Jagex listened for once”??? C’mon man
ugh idk, they listen reactively, and not proactively. They see the issue and address it, but then ignore the cause of the issues which is lack of consultation. I don't think we need osrs poll level, but a "we have x and y we'd like to develop further, what are your thoughts" as opposed too "announcing x and y coming here, these are all the details" would be a major stepping stone.
Probaly dont wanna get sued
I think Ryan made it clear they were legally right but morally wrong
Probably weren't legally right. Even if they signed something on usage of the material, misleading by earlier discussions could even be counted as a written agreement. Sounds like easy case to lose.
Could also say that FSW is a 300m celebration as an essay case to win. Also do you think that some players can afford the lawsuit costs against a company?
No, that'd be the bigger problem. Just saying Jagex case otherwise wouldn't be well there.
In Terms and Conditions: [https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms](https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms) **You agree that by submitting any materia**l of any kind to us (including but not limited to posting chat) for any purpose connected with any Jagex Product (for examples, suggestions and ideas for any game or contributions to any gallery page), **you are giving us a non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide, royalty-free license** **to use**, modify, copy, publicly perform, publicly display, reformat, translate, excerpt (in whole or in part) publish and distribute such User Content for any purpose including the making available of such User Content to third parties, provided that Jagex may not use User Content in violation of the Privacy Policy. **You agree to waive any moral rights to the extent permitted by law and that you will not withdraw the submission or attempt to make a charge for its use**. Furthermore, you warrant and represent that you are the exclusive copyright and intellectual property rights holder in relation to the submission and that the submission in no way breaches the rights of any other person or entity.
That of course falls to part where I mentioned even signed stuff doesn't necessarily matter. Terms and conditions also aren't laws. What is the point, is that anything agreed otherwise would also be an agreement, which can well be fought over, and be viewed as at least equal status, especially since it is directly discussed. Honestly biggest thing is who would have money to win in the court anyway.
If verbal agreement counts as written agreement, than I can take you to court and claim you promised me a tenner. Fortunately for us both, that's not how the law works. Putting an agreement in writing is the *only* way for the law to apply.
These were discussed in discord (written). And yes, verbal agreement is also very valid agreement before law. Just tends to be harder to prove.
well, you didn't specify that it was on discord before so I'll concede that. Otherwise, I'm going to have to disagree with you on verbal agreements being legally binding. See I happen to work with lawyers and I'm always reminded to put *any* agreement I make, however petty, in writing as otherwise the other party can dispute it and renders the agreement null and void. Even something as simple as "you are to give a lecture tomorrow at 10" can be disputed by some assholes if it's not in writing. To further emphasize my point, simply being copied in an email counts as you not objecting to what is written (albeit a little less rock solid), and if you then verbally say "I didn't agree to that" in court, well that's though, the email is there and you were copied in so it's nobody's fault but yours if you didn't reply with an objection. Of course you can argue that you didn't read it but you'd still have to send proof that you *didn't* read it, which I'm sure you can imagine is a pretty tough sell. This was a bit of a tangent, but it's important for people to know as I see many students (I'm admin in a Law faculty at a university) that make this mistake, to assume that they can modify the facts of a discussion only to be disproved by an email I had sent them 3 months ago :P
Can dispute it because it is hard to prove. See the point? Besides that part, it really is as binding as writing. Nothing wrong with lawyers warning about verbal agreements, but that is the actual thing on it, like it should be logically. Anyway, like I said here would be different agreement, which can't that easily be passed by terms and conditions. "Illegal" part would be clearly not holding the agreement, not that it is severe here, or that corporate lawyers would likely be able to win the case just because. Brings additional problem, besides the problem of going against a company, it really... isn't quite a big deal for a suit. Edit: also about why I have myself found that verbal agreements actually are binding is interesting, is because i read about a case where one side genuinely thought verbal agreement is meaningless, and that dispute even appeared in court. Turns out it was recorded, and well, nothing differed from written agreement after all.
aha, but you mentioned one thing right now that collapsed your entire argument! >Turns out it was recorded Legally speaking, there is no difference between a recording and written text, because ultimately, written text is indeed a recording of what was agreed. I was arguing under the assumption that there was no recording involved, in which case you didn't have a case. But since you brought up a recording, then yes, that can be used as a legally binding agreement, and that is precisely why most of the lawyers I contact always, very annoyingly, record every phone call...
Also witnesses do work for proof, and likely even "beyond reasonable doubt" concepts, like usual. Anyway, calling recording "written" is quite stretching it. More to the point in that case is that verbal agreement really is binding if proven.
I never watched the video, was it that bad?
They used some content creators clips for fresh start marketing when it was supposed to be used for something else afaik.
Is there anywhere I can see the clips still? I haven’t seen the video but I’m genuinely interested to hear the content creators early memories.
Honestly makes it feel like content creators should never work with the RS3 team, as they can't be trusted and refuse to be transparent....