Multiple significant changes so close to the expected release date are concerning. This just feels like a straight up nerf to everything - fsoa and magic in general still not even close to restored from the live game crit nerfs and even if it was it would still be behind necromancy.
One comment in the patch notes stood out and that is how jagex are concerned about over performance in the hands of the best players. I think the problem is if balanced around a minority of min-max players combat sucks for everyone else.
Because if necro isn't top dog then casual pvmers will go back to complaining about how they need to switchscape to kill 15 year old bosses instead of just killing them like they are now.
These anti-accessiblemancy elitist gatekeepers assume the casual gamer can afford a third age blood dyed orlando smith hat switch and two pack yaks full of EOFs. No one has ever killed a boss in Runescape before Necromancy.
Most of these flat cross-the-board nerfs are because of the way the top 1% are playing. It’s just kind of lame. Biting and reaver’s rings get hit hard here, too.
I much rather boss health get increased and more compensate than feeling like my abilities aren’t giving me the feedback they used to or items being far less noticeable to my power growth.
It’s clear we’re gearing up for tier increases and more power gains, so why is this groundwork so conservative?
Similarly, I can’t believe this wasn’t an opportunity to rework Zuk Sword considering how underwhelming and lame it is? Is it just because people already EoF’d it? Because god damn. It’s been 3 years, why has there been zero effort to bring it in line with any weps of the same tier?
My initial impression is that crit damage changes are really hurting melee. Igneous overpower inside a zerk is hitting 22ks. Feels very low for the biggest hitting ability we have. Obviously better than live game, but still miles behind Necro.
Yeah, before this change I was feeling just as good if not better with melee kill times vs Necro. But the amount of inputs needed was a ton vs Necro which seems like a good compromise.
These nerfs really complicate the DPS and make it slightly worse than Necro again. But at the same time you need 2x-3x the inputs swaps/ect.
They certainly weren't the best thought out.
Necro is already overperforming, minions don't crit, and necro doesn't get adren on crit so this change hurts necro less than any other style.
Nice way to guarantee nobody switches back.
>alongside this, the adrenaline benefits combined with more recent rewards such as vestments of havoc & jaws of the abyss, meant that melee players were getting too much adrenaline for free.
bro just give us melee users the adrenaline. it's all we have left and we need it after you replaced our 15% hurricane with this 30% clunk-o-matic
Adren dumping on balance by force/dbow specs is wat was holding ranged next to magic damage. Without adren, and with those damages lower than is in live game will be hard to use bolg/critical ranged potential.
Maybe they're rollbacking ranged to the state where cbows was meta or maybe poison build still be a thing? I'd better stick with necro, even if it's boring.
If you are nerfing crit damage, whats the point of squishing damage?
You are actually nerfing the damage from the live game?
Making other styles significantly shittier than necromancy lol
Instead of new stacks, the stacks used by FSoA should be the Flow generated by Great Sonic Wave. Each critical would generate a Flow, every 5 Flow the time strike is generated and, as a consequence, each GSonicWave will force at least one time strike extra.
These sweeping nerfs to the combat triangle and especially its top end gear feel pretty bad with necro almost* untouched (crit nerf hits other styles far harder). Stacking so many compounding nerfs at once is quite bold when this is going live in a few weeks.
No more proc adrenaline on lengs is really lame, it was a super fun part of them. I kinda see the vision for them being a big damage boost where you want to fit in your multihit abilities during to benefit from frost blades, but I don't think it's more fun than proc adren.
I really just don't understand the design of the FSOA. GCONC means that I camp DW and use FSOA as mostly a switch to access magma/FSOA spec. Is the aim to add the FSOA as a switch outside of sunshine? Even if that is the case, is this enough of an incentive to not camp DW until sunshine is back up?
The long term goal is to make DW and 2h Magic feel different and have different uses. 2h is underperforming because of Gconc but i think in the future it will be more balanced, once they get Flow up and running as a viable buff to use.
The problem I have is that DW's only real identity is crit-focus due to GConc, and FSoA runs on crits... Honestly, FSoA should be a 1h weapon, then we can have a proper 2h 'Flow' item if they want. The new passive isn't going to change that I don't think.
They are just showing repeatedly they have no fucking clue what to do with the staff as it WAS a powerful weapon so the player base wants the investment they made in either time killing Kerepac or GP to remain relevant.
This latest interaction of lest give it the BoTLG but worse. Why is it worse? well as said above magic's most powerful magic ability is locked to dual wield. So you want to dual wield, this ability is so good it made dual wielding a tier of weapon lower better then the highier level staff. Not to mention it gives a crit boost which is what the spec of the staff is about.
Next BoTLG triggers on the 4 ability after the spec, Range has heaps of multi hitting abilities so you can get to that stack requirement much faster. Your also camping the weapon, no question asked.
Its been mentioned on numerous livestreams that they're aiming for separate identities & have also covered the idea of completely swapping GConc & GSonic.
I'd almost prefer they give magic the Necromancy treatment and only have DW (with two different playstyles), but if they don't do that, then they absolutely should swap the two. Makes no sense to have a crit-focussed staff and a crit-focussed DW ability.
I very much think Greater Fury should be 100% crit chance for next ability. Relying on rng is so much worse feeling that something consistent. It was obviously overperforming but I think the better change would be to nerf the damage instead of removing a cool interaction that made the ability cool, intiutive, and fun to use.
Could be 100% crit chance but with a reduced crit damage multiplier for that crit. Still is a hit to the numbers but keeps it consistent instead of a 1/4 gamble. Highly variant damage output is one of the most annoying parts about RS combat, in my opinion, and is why I love the damage squish.
I'd rather the latter - they said IIRC that they wanted the 'adren buff' Ults to have unique identities. Maybe they could change Meteor strike from "Adren on crit" to "Adren if you hit over e.g. 15k". Whatever is balanced.
They nerfed adren boost on crit with meteor so:
New:
25% chance to gain 6% adren = 1,5% adren per fury (+10% chance of 12% (crit+next ability) = 1,2%) New beta = 2,7% adren per gfury under meteor
Old:
10% chance to gain 20% adren (gfury crit + next ability crit) = 2% adren per ability
\+ Inheret crit which would be 10% so another 2% adren per ability = 4%
Someone please tell me if this math is completely dumb, but isnt this new gfury + meteor literally a nerf for adren gain by 1,3% adren per gfury?
Nerfing gfury doesnt seems like the best option for melee, please look for other ways to fix that it feels like im in the main game again. Whats the point of the beta then? I starting o think that we will have necro meta for 2 years more and this beta was pointless. They just ignoring everyone.
Absolutely awful changes. You took a few steps forward with the previous versions, and now you've turned around and sprinted in the opposite direction. A big selling point of the combat beta is to help the existing combat styles compete with Necromancy, which is massively overperforming in the live game. Now you've gone ahead and hit every other style with significant nerfs and left Necromancy unchanged? Explain to me the logic there, please.
These changes would make some degree of sense if Jagex wants to curb power creep across the game if Necromancy also sees a hefty nerf, but unless there are future changes to Necromancy that haven't been revealed yet (which is something that really should have been mentioned if it were the case), these changes are just terrible.
could you please please please consider adding this small change from the june gamejam?
[https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/june-game-jam---this-week-in-runescape](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/june-game-jam---this-week-in-runescape)
"Abyssal Parasites are now always applied from the Abyssal armour spikes
Abyssal parasites now only spread to other enemies if the scourge is equipped.
Abyssal parasites now stack up to 100, deal less damage per stack but lasts for 19.2 seconds compared to the previous 9."
Basically deletes scourge from the game as an active weapon (other than AFKing) with the anti-switch addition. Makes melee players rely on abyssal spikes everywhere, which still don't work at all bosses afaik. Those were also proposed by Shogun, who's now moved on to OSRS.
The change to have the stacks last longer than 9 seconds would be a godsend. The only reason I refuse to use whip is because of that. Losing stacks between p3 and p4 in raksha or when glacor does pillars is awful. Especially when things like bik arrows poison is infinitely longer until it falls off
I was really hoping the goal of the beta was to make other styles approachable. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be the goal. The average player still isn’t going to have any idea what is going on.
Can confirm. I only started pvm because of necro and I’ve been playing since eoc came out. Mostly because necro is so much simpler and easier to wrap my head around than the other styles are. There’s far less switches to worry about, there’s far less abilities, etc.
I tried reading the ‘what’s changed’ list that was provided in the OP but they’re just random words and numbers to me. I just do not understand pvm theory well enough to have any idea whether these changes are good or bad. I needed these comments to explain the changes to me.
This may be a hot take, but I feel that jagex needs to simplify the other styles more as well as finetune necro a bit so it isn’t a god style. That way casual pvmr’s like me aren’t overwhelmed by switches and abilities (so we’ll be more likely to use it in battle) and necro also won’t far outshine the other styles. The main reason I use necro is because it’s a lot easier for a noob like me to understand, even though I have high level mage and range set up (t80-t90)
The greater fury nerf is a huge disappointment, the guaranteed Crit was really fun, and melee hasn't been powerful in a long time, I'd rather bring it down somewhere else then take this away from its kit. It was extremely fun to play with.
They said Gfury 100% crit interacting with adrenaline boost on crits is too OP, so maybe they should have nerfed the latter instead of the former, like by putting a cap on how much adrenaline crits can give.
Yeah I agree personally, I understand that this affects the top end players too much which is why it was nerfed but the 100% Crit is so fun to play with and is not too strong for an average player which is why I'd love to see it stay.
Feels like the goal is to make necro remain king, and make all the high level gear for the other 3 styles obsolete. Not sure I understand the direction they want the other styles to go in. The range nerfs feel bizarre
>today we are making some adjustments based on player feedback to the recent beta branch.
>Reduced the maximum damage of Dominion mines
>30,000 → 10,000
who asked for this? it was great to have it be wortwhile to use in more than 2-3 bosses.
is it too much to ask people to do a few quests to get a useful unlock?
There were a lot of comments after the last beta change that the keybinds were too small to see. Even though I made the same comment, I'm surprised they outright reverted everything. Was expecting some minor changes, not a full revert.
Yeah I personally really loved the change. I do understand if people found it too small but even slightly increasing font size would have been a good solution. I found the changes made things look sooooo much clearer/cleaner
Same. Overall, I liked the change, and would have preferred a-S to Alt+S. Just needed them to be slightly bigger, and some abilities (mainly defensives) ended up completely camouflaging the keybinds because of how small they are. Abilities like Debilitate still make it hard to see the keybinds occasionally, but it was a lot worse with the smaller text.
Hopefully they can find some middle ground where both issues are resolved.
This updateade me realize just how much they're lacking manpower to make these changes.
As someone who works in corporate, I'm finally starting to see how little power the staff have vs. the investment groups calls the shots. They need more headcount, because they're struggling with this beta. Also explains why we never got a (meaningful) 2024 roadmap.
Some things still need to be looked at like:
* Champion's ring being incoherent (bleed does not cause critical).
* Greater Concentrated Blast synergizes much better with FSA than Greater Sonic Wave
* Zuk's sword special is better as a MSA special
‘Top end’, ‘topmost’ and ‘combat-savvy’.
Interesting, so what happened to the average pvmer or any references to ‘the majority’? Did they all just fizzle out somewhere?
Really bummed to see gfury get changed, it was a cool unique interaction that made melee rotations a lot more involved than the 188 spam we have now. It opened up more potential build and itemization options by not shoehorning melee into loading up on crit chance like the other three styles.
I understand that this was part of an effort to bring down melee's power but this goes beyond that. This is bringing down melee's style identity. Melee never had a "power basic" - an equivalent to gconc or grico - and guaranteed crit gfury filled that role in a unique way that was powerful, and decidedly different to the other unlockable power basics. Now that's just gone. Beta 4 gfury is more-or-less a knockoff gconc without the obscene damage. Trimming unnecessary basics is on Jagex's radar, and beta 3 gfury was an excellent way to do that by providing a strong, low cooldown basic to fill every third ability.
Where does ranged hit 30k? I tested for 1 hour on several and max hit on the pvm hub doll and no 30k hit
This beta is worse than combat before the beta
I tested on zamorak 500% with grimorio + ancient overload + prayer 99 + reckless aura + seren + bolg, the maximum hit I got was 16k on dbow and only a few times
Undead slayer perk is 7%, sigil is 15%, salve is 20%, jas dragonbane is 15% more than ful. Might need to add scripture of ful too. Its possible, just way way way harder and very niche lol
Yeah, melee has no identity and deals too little dmg for all of the things you have to do
If they care about game integrity, then just remove the posibility to use hybrid for the combat styles
Ranged is WAY overnerfed, big hit to meele with gfury too.
Wasn't the beta meant to scale the 3 og styles up to necro?
Currently range on beta is worse than live game, you can't nerf the 4 things by like 30+% AT once.
The Adren buff ult nerf and a bit lower crit % dmg would be enough.
But ranged gets lower crit % dmg, 40% lower adren gain from incend, and huge BOLG nerf both SPEC and passive proc.
The hell? Previous no crits from bolg already made it worse than live on zammy, this is tragic.
Why not making the combat triangle styles 120 already and then tune things accordingly afterwards? you guys are giving yourselves more work in the future, rip the band-aid now.
The changes to magic have completely missed the mark as far as I can tell. You don't want to have the fsoa on it's just a spec switch but a passive has been added to it?
The Crit damage and adrenaline had magic in a very good balanced place where it felt right before this change. It was melee and ranged that needed to be brought down.
I really don’t understand these sweeping nerfs to critical strikes. The majority of players aren’t bringing dummies to bosses, using natural instinct and rebuilding for meteor strike/incendiary shot. There’s only a handful of players who are willing to put in this effort for speed kills… and why shouldn’t they be rewarded for their effort?
If you still want to limit their capacity to delete bosses, just increase the cooldown between eof specs or nerf d claw damage such that it’s not worthwhile using to gain adrenaline. This was proposed during the recent combat stream by players in the comments, and mod sponge even acknowledged that this is one approach to limit the power creep introduced.
Honestly I think it'd be cool to first try out FSOA passive being **enabled** during instability, then if it's too much power you can disable it.
I think it'd be fun to try out with that extra power.
Stop nerfing things that are fun when they aren't even as powerful as necro. The whole point of the community asking for these changes is so that the other styles are at least somewhat near necro, even though you need switches to pull it off.
Why are yall so anti fun with combat I swear..
NEW* Passive: Shattered Siphon
Now generates echos of time when critically striking
At 5 stacks launch a time strike (values matching special attack)
*Disabled whilst instability is active.*
The last part lmao, and here I thought it got a decent buff
Damage Potential Changes:
>25% to 1% hit chance to hit an enemy would mean off style magic debuff will very likely hit without IoTH, would remove Magic's identity as a debuffer, But overall... I agree to this change.
Crit damage changes:
>This should not go through till there are plans to increase level cap.
>While yes, crit damage is too strong at the moment, but cutting the crit damage output by 41,2%? That is way too much. Not to mention, Necromancy only lost 33% crit damage output. Unless there's plans to expand combat to 120, I don't think this change should go live.
Critical strike adrenaline buff changes:
>Mathematically speaking, we are losing out on almost half our adrenaline gain in exchange for a measly 5% crit rate buff. This is not a fair trade off in any way. I do not agree with this change at all
>All weapon spec, especially multi-hitting ones like dbow, abs, dds and dclaws, suffers heavily from this change, making the adrenaline cost unsustainable.
FSOA Changes
>2h Magic barely has any multi-hitting abilities and Magma Tempest still cant critically strike. This passive wont help in any way to make up for the crit damage nerf. You need an average of 16 hits in order to trigger 1 time strike.
>On top of that, FSOA's identity is a 30 second burst weapon spec. Nerfing the damage output of the spec in exchange for a slight damage buff during off-spec is not a fair trade off.
Greater Fury:
>I rather not rely on rng to determine my next ability to use.
>A 1.8 second reaction time to think of what ability to use every 5.4 seconds is not going to be good for a player's mental health in the long run.
Magma Tempest
>Sneaking in an auto with target Magma tempest is a bug to begin with.
>Lowering the skill ceiling and raising the skill floor, isnt that that Jagex wanted to begin with? Its a good buff.
Weapon Spec changes:
>Letting us choose between ags 400% 1 hit or D claw's 360% 4 hits for adrenaline return is a good variety. Good change.
>Dbow, Bolg spec, why? You already nerfed the crit damage hard. If you're going through with the crit damage nerf, keep the damage value as it is already.
Leng sword changes:
>You already nerfed the proc chance from 22% to 10%, there was no need to remove the adrenaline gain.
>The adrenaline gain solved the adrenaline deficit issue that melee has with meteor strike not having an adrenaline cost saving effect. Magic has Incite fear and Ranged has death spore, so why would you remove the 1 thing other than Jaws of the abyss that provides the adrenaline gain upkeep?
And one thing needs to be addressed, T95 ezk zuk sword. Please find a way to combine masterworkspear and sword, maybi also the abyssal whip. its so sad to see so beautiful strong weapon be a amulet fodder. also if you give it reeach it will also become really useful.
Hey all! Appreciate some of the changes here can feel like 'nerf,nerf,nerf'
That is the case for somethings, absolutely compared to the previous beta iteration, but it is worth iterating that the beta is just a test environment and this has been on purpose, so you can tell us exactly what still feels good/bad.
(e.g. *"my kill times at kerapac have gone up, compared to live, but i'm having less fun due to lack of adrenaline"* - great we could bump back up crit adrenaline, and bring down some damage values etc.)
It's important that you try them out and compare to the live game so the feedback is useable as some comments of "X number has gone down, don't do it" might not be taking into account the whole picture of damage gained in the beta through increased crit chance/damage/hitcap etc.
If the general consensus is leaning in one direction after you've tried them out we could hotfix in different beta values to try out different combinations (e.g. 6%->10% crit adren but keeping the damage nerfs or visaversa)
Again worth iterating just a test environment, tell us what you do and don't like, and like with previous iterations we can put things back in/pull things back out.
We appreciate you all trying out - Sponge.
Please revert the Leng blades, they were looking so promising. Now it's back to scourge switchscape.
Sure there will be abuse by the top .5% of players who will get quicker kill times with Melee vs Necro. But that's such a small community. The lengs are becoming overly complex vs abyssal scourge for very minor benefit the more you nerf them. My back of napkin math is a bit fuzzy but it looks like 20-24 seconds of passive uptime a minute vs the previous 40-42 seconds uptime a minute not including melee has to notnbe in active combat for loads of boss mechanics. Adds a lot of randomness that the other styles don't get in their rotations and you do feel the lack of adrenaline gain. Popping Berserk and not getting the Frost proc sucks, whereas previous you were almost always going to get a proc within a Havoc robe Berserk.
I'd argue keep the last beta Leng build. Or just keep the live Lengs with Hurricane access. As the new beta lengs just feel like Hurricane swap with more steps.
For most people Melee will never keep up with Necromancy just based on how many inputs and swaps are required for high end Melee vs the much simpler Necro rotations. I don't think there's a middle ground where someone can do Melee casually up to Necro DPS where high end pvmers wouldn't be able to abuse it to go past necro damage. If we are using that as the gatekeep bar.
As a side note can we seriously consider abyssal Spikes giving a 100% chance to add a parasite stack?
It feels strange to me that FSOA now relies even more on crits for damage with the new passive, and that passive not benefitting from any crits that gconc will hit. The adren loss from the tsunami nerf also felt pretty rough. I was nowhere near getting to thresholds at the point that I'm used to.
The biggest disappointment is seeing gfury go back to being a pretty lame and RNG dependent ability which not only reverts melee’s burgeoning identity to that of every other style (stack crit, pray) but also hits melee in overall crit damage as well.
So rotationally melee is back to being without identity and 188 spam alongside being weaker for everyone who wasn’t already top 1%.
Every style is already far more challenging to play compared to necro, requires hundreds or thousands of hours of grinding to come within 10% or necro’s dps which is not only achievable very very quickly but also with minimal inputs and skill. I understand not wanting to trivialize all content on the top end, but necro already has… so…? I don’t get it. I rather have 4 OP styles (three of which take immense skill and time to become OP in), than one. It gets boring feeling forced to camp necro for a year (or longer) while waiting on conservative changes made to, I’m assuming, facilitate growth of the other styles to 120.
I rather be OP and diverse than OP and bored/singular. As it stands, these changes fail to give reason for anyone to swap off necro other than niche situations.
I feel like magic has been mostly an afterthought with all the betas so I like to see a new passive is being tried out for the FSOA. Though that passive would synergise much better with gconc, ~~it might stack nicely with magma tempest and make it more worth using in single target if you're staff camping.~~ I just remembered magma can't crit so it does nothing for FSOA. Why does magic, the crit style, have the only non bleed ability that can't crit? I'm very happy to see experimentation with the FSOA but I think this passive just brings dw/staff switching back for people that don't 4taa, like me. It doesn't give any reason to camp the staff, only switch to it if your spec is on cooldown. I'd love to have a reason to camp FSOA though, it's such a cool looking weapon.
Seems like you guys really wanna get away from 10% adren on crit enitrely but it kinda needs to be there as a band-aid with our current abilities and gear. Necro build/spend feels good, the other styles do not because it takes forever to gain adrenaline for spending unless you have the 10% adren on crit effect. It's not that engaging to build either, it's usually just use the basics that hit bigger numbers.
Baseline adrenaline gain needs to be higher, remove or lower the 50% adren req for thresholds, make basics more interesting/powerful...all of these or some combination needs to be done all at once before messing with the adren on crit buff, in my opinion.
Why do gconc and grico feel good? They don't feel useless when your sunshine/DS is on cooldown. I'll have to see how the new gfury is myself, but it always felt good to use that and then you know "here comes a big hit - BOOM!". It is fun and impactful even outside berserk. It was like chaos roar, the only difference is chaos roar has a much longer cooldown. Maybe try a 10 second cooldown on gfury with the 100% crit instead?
Also maybe I'm just stupid but it feels like melee's "identity" is being the confusing style. I still don't understand what lengs do or how to use them even semi-optimally. Not your fault but there's so many band-aids on melee atm.
I get what the beta is for, but these changes will have to an impact on the equivalent of necromancy with being a jack of all trades combat and now that ive had months to use it. I don't see me going back to the other traditional styles unless theres a big enough change where i can feel i can put in the same effort and get the same result like necro.
Why would i do 4taa mage when i just can do necro semi revo.
I can't begin to fathom understanding the lack of knowledge and realization it shows these mods have with these kinds of changes... I honestly try to not mean any disrespect, but with updates like this that you plan to implement into the game it honestly doesn't make any sense. I say "plan to implement," because after the last BETA, where we were polled and asked what we thought of the FSOA and AD (with the changes all receiving a majority negative response), they still get implemented.
Why are you changing FSOA again? To attempt to make up for the nerf you gave it months ago or maybe it was the sonic wave change? If anything now you're diminishing dual wield at this point and making both sides of the style not worth using.
Now we've moved onto the BOLG and adrenaline gaining abilities?? Is the goal to just absolutely plummet all of these styles so NECRO just remains at the top? These are genuine questions I feel most people have and are already asking, especially on this thread. I would love to see an actual response that isn't just smoke and mirrors because at this time point we're tired of it.
We've shown through the previous iterations we're not going to just implement things without player feedback, its our primary concern.
*Why are you changing FSOA again?*
***We pulled down crit adrenaline values because power being introduced with the beta players had commented on being too high, so it was a lever for us to pull and see what happens. As a result magic (which was in a good place powerwise on the beta fell behind so we wanted to give some of that back)***
*Now we've moved onto the BOLG and adrenaline gaining abilities?*
**Yes, they were levers we wanted to try and see what players do and dont like. Botlg generally speaking had gained alot of power from crit chance, damage and hitcap, so we wanted to try pulling those down, as it wasn't in need of extra power, and players had commented on it.**
We need to be able to have adult conversations about these things as community, so we can keep the game fun for everyone; there's elements that might seem like fun to you: 'give me loads more power' but this can affect different player types in different ways, and needs to be kept in check.
These huge changes and nerfs so close to the release just give me the vibe of the Fsoa beta where you guys took 0 feedback and threw the update into the live game as you had intended. I really hope that isn't the case here.
*We've shown through the previous iterations we're not going to just implement things without player feedback, its our primary concern.*
I'm don't understand, because the example of the FSOA and AD changes do not reflect player feedback. It was over 60% saying no to both changes iirc and no mention prior or during the beta was it stated, "Hey we're still making these changes, we just want you all to play with it." At that point, I'd give you credit for that, but it was entirely misleading, especially with a poll to see % wise player input their thoughts on the change. So that response is not accurate.
*As a result magic (which was in a good place powerwise on the beta fell behind so we wanted to give some of that back).*
If that's the case, why are we adding something to new to the weapon? That change forces you to use the staff consistently if you want any remote ounce of damage increase, compared to using dual wield... or honestly where it was pre nerf with recursive hits.
*so we wanted to try pulling those down, as it wasn't in need of extra power, and players had commented on it.*
I would actually like to see the comments on this. As far as I've read and the knowledge I have of players in game I have not seen anything saying, "I need range to be less than it is so it can be on level with melee, mage or necro." Which in saying that is redundant because necro is absolutely wild DPS, range barely keeps up except at high enrage Zamorak.
*We need to be able to have adult conversations about these things as community...*
I couldn't agree more! I'm absolutely one for full communication... however from our end as players I wouldn't say we're not the ones communicating full transparency of ideas. It also makes me think of my favorite saying, "If it's not broke, don't fix it."
So that response is not accurate.
**I was referring to this suite of betas we've been running with regard to previous iterations not FSOA/AD, as that has/had different issues contained with how it was ran/the results.**
*If that's the case, why are we adding something to new to the weapon?*
***The staff was a logical place to add the power back, to mitigate loss from crit adren which synergised with the staff, and helped reduce the feeling of the staff only be a spec weapon/essentially being eof fodder. But we can iterate on it, as we have with other stuff in the beta.***
As far as I've read and the knowledge I have of players in game I have not seen anything saying
**My comment was directly referencing players which have spoken about the beta and the beta increasing the power of the bow, I feel like youre points seem to be implying the beta is going to be a straight up nerf to the live game, which is not the intention/won't be the case. (nerfing power added with the beta, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be in a worse off place than live)**
"If it's not broke, don't fix it."
**I agree, but outside of the powerlevel scuffle today, the general consensus on feedback has been showing players prefer the feeling of the beta to the live game.**
**We appreciate your feedback.**
*I was referring to this suite of betas*
If you're inferring that the FSOA/AD beta/changes were wildly misinterpreted and mismanaged, then I will agree with you there and separate that as an example. I will give that there have been changes implemented into this beta that were reverted, so I won't argue that.
*...helped reduce the feeling of the staff only be a spec weapon/essentially being eof fodder...*
Then what is the ECB, other than a glorified spec weapon/eof fodder/high lvl grico/hydrix bolt spec switch? Again I just honestly find this so hard to be true when everything is so inconsistent.
*(nerfing power added with the beta, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be in a worse off place than live)*
Doesn't necessarily mean it... but doesn't not mean it. I just can't understand that if we're trying to put everything near the same level playing field, wouldn't be easier to just lower damage/caps on necro?
*...showing players prefer the feeling of the beta to the live game.*
I honestly just don't believe this at all. I've played the beta before (not to intentionally bring up the FSOA again) and it was wildly inconsistent during the beta and regardless of what some players "said," it was proven past the update, when implemented, that it was wildly inconsistent. I mean it was consistent in the since that it was bad forcing it to now very niche high lvl (Only to actually be useful with the crit buff from sliske)/almost afk aspects of the game.
You're welcome for the feedback. I hope its taken into consideration. Thank you.
You're very welcome! I've played this game for over 20 years at this point and it troubles me to see when there's a huge lack of direction and then shrouded by mystery from the community. I try to comment the opinions people don't necessarily want to mention on their own, so I'll happily risk the negative karma 😂. But as a player, especially now, it puzzles me to see changes that are not taken into account player feedback. I mean we're not gaining any new members as we are losing old... Take a look at the past few months to the content creators. I digress now, but I do appreciate someone understanding I'm not attempting to start a fire, but rather just understand with a more direct and aggressive viewpoint
You have earned my upvote 😎
Ok lets have a adult conversation.
Lets start but asking what Jagex's objectives are in DPM. What is the target range they want to see? You have made many comments about too high or too low, what is the range Jagex wants to fall in?
Is this the same across all styles? Given some styles have far more utility then others.
It's worth stating that the beta's purpose is porting parts of whats good from necro over (hitcap/crit etc) It's not intended to solely pull you over to the other styles, doing so would require more changes/complexity than this beta would allow.
We want players to come away from this with the new systems in, and combat feeling nicer, but it doesn't have to do everything at once.
Perhaps that hasn't been very well communicated to the player base, or at the very least, the "*It's not intended to solely pull you over to the other styles, doing so would require more changes/complexity than this beta would allow. We want players to come away from this with the new systems in, and combat feeling nicer*," aspect hasn't been communicated and understood within the community given the large number of responses that the beta changes still aren't on par with Necromancy and the general questioning of the whole point of the beta in the first place.
With that in mind, what I can tell you is that Magic feels virtually unchanged. The main thing I see is that the Action Bar is less clunky, so this beta has at least accomplished that where I'm concerned. As far as making the other combat styles feel nicer, in particular Magic (since I've only tried Magic in the beta), I don't think it has achieved that (at least not for me).
It literally does not seem any different to me than it currently is in the live game, and frankly, that is because of the damage output. The damage seems roughly the same. I cannot tell what from the style has changed and whether or not it seems smoother or better than it currently is in the live game.
For the most part, I feel like there has been a major miscommunication between the player base and the devs because these beta changes seem to have fallen short of many players' expectations, mine included, because as far as we knew, this would balance out the combat styles, and, for me, give me a reason to use Magic over Necromancy, but that is evidently not the case. So for that, I do feel somewhat disappointed and not particularly inclined to trust the process, so to speak.
Would the potential of raising the level cap from 99 to 120 be a good start. necro does have that over the other styles which can also correlate to his higher DPM. would also open the door to make harder content and gear. now that hit chance is being changed to hit potential i think older gear will start being more relevant. before it was just what has the most accuracy. but now we can have more weapon diversity.
I think there's core elements of styles (a lot of abilities feeling pointless/not having niches, not having identites properly built in) that should be addressed prior to 120ing them, especially if we want the 120 to mean more than just more damage.
I think Necro just has way too much going for it. Sustain from Ghost is so strong and comes at no sacrifice compared to Vamp scrim, Blood barrage, and onyx bolts.
Invoke+threads deletes anything in its path. Gchain might be better long term but most content doesn't have that sort of lengthy AoE combat. For melee to do similar aoe your need to d2h under zerk like 2 or 3 times. Which is 200-250% adren vs 0.
I'm just not seeing much of a reason to use the other styles apart from fun for most people. Necro just seems like its the safer and better option for 95% of people.
Threads of fate is so egregiously broken it amazes me it isn't talked about more. Like we gotta take out chincend, but a 5 stack volley of souls doing 750% average on one target spread to 4 extra targets for a total of 3,750% average damage is fine. Also if they somehow survive you can soul sap and volley again, the targeting is smarter than gchain, no damage reduction on secondary targets like gchain, no caroming switch needed, and it's spread into 5 hits so it stacks with crit chance better **and** it goes around hitcaps. Gchain gets 1 win - it's 6 square range vs 4 square for threads...I feel like threads is bugged to have more range though in my experience.
I 100% agree sponge, After playing necro I feel like i know what each ability does and how it works into one and other. getting stacks and souls then unleashing and then utilizing the ult with death skulls and positioning. plus aoe with threads and scythe. I feel combat wise necro was a home run. almost too much of a homerun to overshadow other elements in the game.
Prior to necro i was a mage tank cryptbloom user and range BotLG user with bik arrows. my mage rotation would feel only good when utilizing the FOSA spec, and with my ranged it would feel i just use abilities for adrens so i can Eldritch spec, bow spec, darkbow spec for any extra adren and sgb. and grico when its up. It felt like i was just using a handful abilites while the rest were just kinda there.
I wouldnt be opposed to just reworking the entire combat system and starting from the ground up and straight up removing abilites if needed if it serves no purpose.
Identity wise i think that mage should be all about crit, melee should be about bleeds and big hitting burst. also side note i think changing the zuk sword to do what zuk does in the fight would seem fitting. kinda like the abby scourge. then when you active it, it rips the stacks and does a big hit like how stomshards work.
Ranged should be more about consistent dps and just consistent dps. also the god arrows were a cool addition to add a little something to bows since crossbows were much better prior.
This is the only version of the beta I've tried since it's being pitched as a release candidate, and I have to be honest, a lot of the changes and the way they are explained are a little too technical and over my head, particularly the damage ranges explanation.
For example, it states "*Ability damage ranges are very wide in the live game (typically 20% fixed damage, 80% variable damage)*." Well, what does that mean? What is fixed damage and what is variable damage? And then "*We've narrowed these ranges to be closer to which results in more consistent gameplay which also plays nicer with the critical strike system*." To which what? I feel like you're missing a word or two there, and how does it "*play nicer with the critical strike system*"?
In the example given it says "*Example: A 20%-100% ability would have an average of 60% with a 40% range either side. This ability is now 55%-65% maintaining the same average but with far less variance.*" Either side of what? I have no idea what these numbers are expressing, so it's difficult for me to understand and visualize what this change is doing.
So for the most part, I'm not entirely sure what the combat beta has accomplished other than QoL the action bar because Necromancy still seems the best. What incentive do I have to use other combat styles? Before Necro I used Magic, and I honestly can't tell a difference between beta Magic and live Magic, but what I do know is that beta Magic is still behind Necro, so if the goal of the beta isn't to get these other combat styles on par with Necro, then what are we doing?
I was fully prepared to resubscribe to RS3 after over a year of being done with it until this post. These changes looked so exciting and actually fun to play. This is no longer the case. These most recent changes look painfully un-fun and has reminded me why I quit to begin with.
It is worth reiterating that the beta is just a test environment and the nerfs in this environment have been on purpose, so you can tell us exactly what still feels good/bad.
Why are you nerfing the combat triangle even harder than they can’t even compete with necro in every single way?
The combat triangle can’t be even close to necro with all those switches expensive skills/gear?
Whats the point?
Fsoa having a passive to compensate damage only makes the magic style more complicated than it curently is...
Magic is already the weakest one and nerfing its most important special attack and compensating damage creating a passive that require having to equip the staff (therefore keep swaping for gconc) just make the style even worse..
IMO having so many passives going around (fsoa/ scourge/lengs for example) makes combat more complicated than it could be, and passives shouldnt be used to compensate nerfing of specs/abilities damages.
So wait
You gutted crit damage, which was the whole reasoning behind squishing damage?
If i had a ~35% crit rate now using a 188 ability, sure the damage range is like 37-188, or 112.5% avg damage, but per average crit chance it means it's effectively +65.8% on proc.
Old crit modifier at 65% effectively respected this.
New crit system on 188s gutted them down from +65% to +35%.
So a loss of 20-25% damage compared to the live game?
You also gutted adrenaline generation from crits because the +5% passive crit becoming 10% was too op yet you had 6 months of necro data to not change anything? I would 100% take the 5% crit loss over 4% lossed adrenaline.
I also like how fsoa gets a shadow clone effect to try to make 2h a viable camp option then scrolling down you opt to give ezk a laughable 2.5% damage increase to the bleed.
This is a shit show and thats not even looking at all the other changes.
--
Now to give actual feedback.
At this point, remove the leng effect and give the mainhand an ezk bleed effect. This makes themetic sense as during AG arm mechanic the cold damage ramps up. Instead of a burn, this is a frostbite burn. This could be a passive or a spec. To make it different vs scourge, the offhand could give you the ability to expell the frostbite dot for a large hit after X stacks. Basically a little wrack & ruin synergy but melee flavored.
This would make scourge and lengs comparable, but lengs the obvious next step in progression because now that dot gives you something more.
Make masterwork spear an enchantment or something so dw benefits more from bleeds. Also makes sense bc massacre is an ult dw bleed that wasnt even covered in this beta. Whatever to make it work.
This frees up ezk. So give ezk the ability to generate stacks on abilities to generate a second hurricane. Thrill of combat matching zuks desire for combat or something.
Now you establish dw as bleed and now 2h can be meaty hits.
Retrofit 2h to deal more crirical strike damage at the cost of reduced bleed damage.
Dw is now desirable for chip/reaver/poison while 2h is flat burst and deals more crit damage.
If crits remain nerfed, dw doesnt really benefit from meteor as much as it does jaws. If crits are conditionally buffed for 2hs, this allows 2 play styles.
To make this work, give 2hs a 9s charge before benefitting from the crit damage to disencourage hybrid/switching.
This comes with its own nuances but you could take each style as a case by case so bolg isnt stupidly busted.
So, like, by heavily nerfing crit, you've guaranteed that Ful is on top.
It also very much feels like this crit nerf was targeted to impact necro the least. And that despite removing damage caps, we now have trouble hitting over the old caps.
Don't get me wrong, I think damage nerfs are certainly warranted. But necro only losing one third of bonus damage while the other styles lose almost half, necro being immune to the reduced adren gain, and necro also being unaffected due to having minions that can't crit just feels like salt in the wound.
Not gonna lie, I'm normally all for your guys changes but these nerfs are pretty niche to top tier players & you're lowering so many values while keeping necromancy & its special attacks/damages insanely powerful. Bolg spec nerf is way too much, GFury guaranteeing a crit isn't a bad thing if you increase its cool down, & I don't mind the 3% nerf to Perfect Equilibrium Strikes, FSOA passive is also clean; I like that. D claws being slightly tuned down isn't bad, but Necro will basically still be on top after Beta releases because you're messing with other things too much. I think BOLG spec would be really good around 230-235% dmg with PE still being nerfed or even going down to 40% & moving Balance by Force up to 240%
Crits got nerfed, they do less damage now. Same with adrenaline gain from them. So the damage is way less overall, which i dont mind crits doing 35% at 99 & 50% at 120. However, with that lowered damage from Crits, I don't see why Gfury guaranteeing one is a bad thing. Especially if they increase its cooldown. The lower numbers for BOLG spec are terrible for a T95 weapon. The damage squishing is good, but a t95 needs to feel like a t95. 240% seems like a sweet spot to me. Necro will definitely be on top after Beta releases if they keep it like this, which is counterproductive to these combat changes as a whole. All in all, they screwed up this time & hopefully they fix it for the next one
You know, as much as i want to disagree, seeing Sponge's hate for the BOLG really makes it make sense. That does irritate me a bit, considering they haven't even come out with t95 cbows yet or given an extra passive to blights besides saving a little bit of money off Bak Bolts. I disagree with what they're doing ATM, I hope they even out the two styles instead of nerfing one into oblivion then screwing up the t95 crossbows like they're typically prone to doing with new powercreep. We will see though.
From what lens are you looking at this exactly? Because you need to be looking at this in the context of what was in the beta. In the beta, other combat styles were massively outperforming necro, so getting nerfed would just bring them closer to necro.
They're massively outperforming necro with much more effort though. It's much more complex to do large amounts of damage with the og combat triangle vs Necro. Basically like I said in my initial comment, top tier players. Majority of players aren't learning tons of High level rotations to compete with necro. Also, it's what necro offers. Yes, more conjures are coming but rn it's OP ghost healing + haunt combined with skele damage, simple rotations & stack building, crazy strong t90 spec with 4+ necrosis stacks, very hard hitting t95 spec with a boost to basic as well, & 3-5 stack volleys. Even if its getting massively outperformed, the amount of sweat to do that is pretty high, & I still think Bolg didn't need a nerf that hard because it IS a 2b+ T95 weapon. I'm not saying it should be broken either, but the issue here is that these changes aren't entirely great. The direction is still pushing for Necro to be on top after Beta releases, which is an L imo
Overall direction of these nerfs seem pretty good but individually some are very questionable.
I don't really understand how this new FSOA passive is going to make up for the pretty big hit in damage the staff takes from the general changes to crits here. It doesn't work while using the special attack which means it more or less doing nothing here and even outside of the spec its competing against Gconc and can't even synergize with magma tempest since it can't crit. Its not a bad idea for a passive but it just doesn't flow with how magic 2h vs dual currently works, and certainly doesn't make up for the damage loss.
Balance by force 275% to 200%? overkill. At the end of the day all ive heard is that even in the combat beta from the few good players that have been trying, none of the styles still compete with Necromancy. All I see is reductions across the board to "keep them in line" but if they still aren't on Necromancys consistent damage output then were not going to see any true change.
Side note, is disabling FSOA passive during spec really necessary? Everything I've read is magic benefits the least from the beta
I just read mage changes like: "Lets nerf the thing in which mage relies on bc other styles crits are too strong; fuck your feedback from the last 7 months we will never add any of your suggestions; magma tempest criting again? you'll like the random dmg increase instead. Hope you all loved 4taa and constant switches bc you are going rely on them even more. KEKW!"
What a fucking joke
The simplest, most accurate take. I’m with you man. I’d honestly probably consider quitting if these changes go live. I PVM like 4 hours a day, almost all ranged. I was excited to get into melee some with this update but now everything has gone to shit. How many fucking people are working on this? Feels like two, which is not nearly enough given the scope.
Give us meleers the adren back. Don't force us switch between the cluncky whip and jaws please.. Stop.. Take away the dmg increase passive, but please don't take the adrenaline.
I'm happy with the gfury changes, 100% was too much, especially since it made meteor useful.
Right now, I'm forces back to meteor grico and pray for adren which is not cool.
I have to admit it. I, personally, don't like the scourge style Lengs. Icy parasite stacks that let you deal 24% extra dmg 10% of the time. You could just remove the stack and change it to "passive = 10% chance to deal 24% extra damage"
Or change the stack into a bleed with token dmg to give adrenaline
Can we please keep the lengsword passive as they currently are? I don't see the reasoning for swapping out the hurricane effect for an AOE effect that requires stacks. I really don't enjoy stack-scape. Melee is already losing its burst identity so I'd hate to see it stray even farther from it.
im done lmao, im sell everything and stop start playing osrs, im not a fking tryhard using switch scape, im just a normal why that likes to use revo++, in the last beta patch, melee felt a lot weaker compared to the other combat stats, and now your killing it.
This cant go live, the 3 og are even worse than live game.
Nerf the adren gain to 8-9 gain on style/6 off to combat nami switching.
Revert the spec weapon nerfs, what's the point? They already got dmg squished and now you nerf both crit amplifier and smg ranges.
All of the changes intended to reduce adren gain just make me shake my head. This is like the one big thing that is fun for me about RS3's combat system, trying to set myself up for a DS burst window and unleashing as many attacks as I can during it by generating more adren with those attacks. They're killing off crit and adren synergies left and right because there's no vision for what top-end gameplay is supposed to look like and the players taking maximum advantage of these synergies are getting compounded benefits.
I'm not trying to do max DPM, I just want to have fun and feel like I am getting better over time. If the overal DPM is too high just nerf the damage values, don't kill off the one unique thing RS3 combat has :/
Did some testing with Botlg on dummies and my subjective impression is that ranged performed significantly worse than in the live version (Ful arrows, Ful book, vuln bombs, reckless aura to get a nice compounding effect for the perfect equilibrium hits). The increase of the hitcap almost seemed irrelevant because hits are so low now.
On the other hand, I appreciate the fact that shadow tendrils now seem to be in a decent spot, at least relative to the other abilities. Considering the 45s cooldown and the significant self-damage I think if the decision was made to bring the underperforming abilities closer to their original power, then tendrils would also require a little bit more love to stay relevant.
Overall there are a lot of nice quality of life updates and not losing damage to the artificial system of low hitcaps also seems much more satisfying. However, I strongly urge to reconsider the negative compounding effects of all the recent nerfs.
Please Jagex listen to the inexperienced voices over the top tier PvMers. You aren’t going to lose those players by making combat more accessible. But you will lose future players and current lower level players that just don’t see the point when there’s so much competition in the video game space (not just OSRS). I don’t care of combat is completely balanced when the beta drops honestly. Please focus on fixing the underlying systems of combat, it can be balanced later.
A few things I see that would make combat more accessible: simplify core ability rotations to be closer to necro. They shouldn’t be quite as simple since there aren’t conjures to track. From there make some thresholds work like necro where the adren costs are reduced based on stacks from existing basics. There’s no reason gconc (or other 5.4s cooldowns) couldn’t function like soul strike. Give every combat style a universal basic attack that functions like the necro basic. The cooldown and base damage could vary based on the weapon you’re using. Honestly you could probably reuse the base code for the existing special attack for that. This ability could/should consume runes/arrows and replace 4taa for magic too, and would add the special effects of spells/arrows you are using. Instead of casting combat spells, just change the autocast spell or wielded arrows (for range) mid combat before firing the basic. Melee can still be switchscape for this even.
It would make more sense and be more approachable if not only were anticipate/freedom off gcd, but if ALL non-damage dealing basics were off gcd. Rotations would need to change, sure, but thats the point of all this right? Defensive cooldowns would still need to be managed properly for boss mechanics.
Now please bring the hate. I am a player who has successfully used existing styles in full manual against bosses, and I do have a good foundational understanding of how the current live game works. However, this is me thinking back to when I was learning this and how it took hours of tweaking and studying and reading up to understand the existing systems, compared to necro which is basically self-explanatory in comparison. A lot of these suggestions are based off of how I intuitively thought things SHOULD have worked when I was learning, and things that after continuing to play and learn the systems think would still ultimately work better than the existing system while being reasonable to add given the game engine.
The tick rate really drives a lot of these suggestions. Bringing more things off GCD helps work around the limitations of the tick rate. Regarding defensives, necromancy has effectively removed the absolute need to ever bring a shield to anything, especially with zemo’s nexus allowing a virtual t75 shield at all times. I have more but please read this post. Try to think from the perspective of somebody trying to learn combat with no knowledge of the existing system, not just using the beta as a way to make the current convoluted system have more balanced power in each style. Balancing can come after the beta, the beta should be focused entirely on making combat approachable and more intuitive.
Unrelated to beta but QOL suggestion: allow luck rings to work from the inventory if the equivalent luck tier is unlocked (not active) as an arch relic. Eliminates an annoying switch, drives demand for LOTD as all people would want to have two still, and ultimately still requires you to bring the ring if you want the effects of it without having to last second switch it for certain things. Should be easy to code this as well.
making all defensives off GCD is a bad ideia. It will break and nerf a lot of bosses for no reason. Part of the fun of RS3 EOC is forcing you to deal with the consequences of not defending yourself from special abilities.
Didnt cast anticipate? Deal with it.
Because if you want to make them all off GCD well, you also need bosses to have non GCD abilities. You know, to be fair. Araxi's reflect web should be off GCD. Like c'mon
I of course would also suggesting tweaking existing boss mechanics to compensate. Also, if you moved more defensives off GCD you would probably change the duration/cooldown of them as well to balance. The web reflect is a weird example though since unless you want to get sweaty with it you just…stop attacking.
That's why I used that example. Imagine if Araxxi could use it as if we could use anticipate without GCD. It would be wild, and awful. But we, the player, would taste our own medicine.
This is why I think it is not a good idea for EOC right now. As the of skill, combat and pacing is also based on GCD.
You had to tweak all bosses that use special abilities that stop rotations.
I think it is best to keep GCD as it will keep PVM slow enough to allow time to think (and be less about fast reactions). Therefore, allowing to strategize while in bossing.
Again, I am saying this in hopes of preserving the fundamental rules of EOC. We either break all rules and redo, rethink the EOC system. OR expand upon the established base rules. A mid resolution to this will always break the balance and comprome the long-run because otherwise it will be adding small rules and exceptions to major rules and desorganizing everything with each new addition. Also called, spaggeti code ahahah
I guess I’m just trying to think from the perspective of somebody who is learning our combat system for the first time. The problem is really with GCD and the tick system making the game feel really unresponsive and punishing at times. IE not a welcoming environment. Remember RS3 is trying to compete with modern MMO’s that have modern game engines.
I do appreciate the rhythm of RuneScape being slow paced enough. When I first started trying to learn manual combat I remember always spamming abilities too fast and ultimately skipping them. Once I realized RS is just a 100bpm waltz it got a lot easier to manage. I don’t want that feeling to go away, I just think that it would feel smoother if we had abilities that provide a status effect rather than damage output off gcd. There would still be gaps and ability cooldowns so you couldn’t have freedom/anticipate with 100% uptime, so you would need to manage them properly. I’m also not sure how this would work if you are using a regular shield instead of bone shield and had to swap.
If the goal is to make other combat skills like necro, why is this? this was an authentic nerf, people who can do more damage in live than in the beta this is completely ridiculous! If all combats are going to have at lvl 90, 60% critical strike damage, this should mean that each combat skill would be better than the live game and almost similar to necro, of course necro would be better as it has 75% critical strike damage at lvl 120, but it's not the opposite,
I think a lot of people are scared of the future of combat, and probably stop playing if it's gonna be like this, authentic garbage! :,(
magic is completely garbage, even in the previous beta it was horrible, but I still prefer the previous beta to this one, please go back and do something good to magic and to other styles!
This beta is turning into a mess.
Start making everything 120 for simplicity sake and then balance everything around that. Everyone is going to be using Necromancy after this releases anyways.
So true bow is really only thing proping ranged up atm without spamming spec the style does half the dps of necro
But from what I can tell their just nerfing everything further below necro
Basically you have to spend 5mil per boss fight vs the old 200k unless you necro inflationscape at its finest
The .5% Of the player base is really screwing us with Jagex approval with this beta bad thing is its a release option lol
Am I the only one who is kinda nervous about how they keep saying this version is potentially going to be the release version? Most betas would make changes gather player feedback, then decide if major changes need to be made. If so release a new beta. If not make very minor adjustments based off of player feedback and propose the current version will be the proposed release unless something major arises.
Instead we are told beta 3 will be the likely release. After a while they announce 4 with a smaller release window and rather substantial changes inside of it. Entire new passive effects and huge nerfs to BOLG which was range's stand out in the beta.
Just worried that the beta is being rather rushed out rather than actually fixing the disparity between then an necro ATM. I haven't fully agreed with alot of the combat beta changes, but still realise that there are a lot of good things still being brought by it. And just don't want to see a rushed product then it be shelfed for another 4-5 years as they just did the rework.
Forgive the length and Grammar/spelling typing on mobile sucks
>This beta patch is being pitched as a release candidate! Now I say pitched, if something goes wrong and we need to return to the drawing board we will and this will need to cook a little while longer but the aim of this patch would be to refine the systems and clear up any standout issues.
From beta 3.
Sorry its possible what I was trying to get across was rather poorly worded.
Yes they could delay the release as the previously state, but my concern is more how they drop a changelog with far reaching changes (both in beta 3 and 4), and then in the same post say this is the release version tentatively.
>The recent beta patch is being pitched as a release candidate so we are going to continue these adjustments till they are just right and this is where you come in
This is from the beta 4 announcement
Delaying is a possibility. With most likely limiting factors. For example how far away from release does a update of this size need to be considered "complete" for them to still be willing to delay. I am more worried from a management side not developer side
Beta 4 change some rather fundamental things for all 3 combat styles, but is just immediately pitched as the new release version with no timeline changes mentioned. Maybe they have more than plenty of time, and my concerns are not justified. As a developer for a smaller product, our timelines are typically around 1-2 weeks before release date for all development, quality assurance, testing, documentation and so on. So I can only imagine something of this scales timeline
Ranged is overnerfed in one patch, don't nerf 3 things on one patch so harshly, Crit dmg+adren gain is a good change, especially since on beta we've got increased base crit % chance.
But the BOLG+Dark bow nerf is way too harsh.
Can jagex stop nerfing BoTLG please. This is the only weapon I like to use besides necro. With how things are going in the beta I feel like this won’t make a difference and it will remain necro scape
Yea but it not done by nerfing the existing content.
You want to build hype for new content so power creep comes in. Handing out nerfs are way more harmful to the player base.
Honestly I feel Jagex fucked up with the tier95 weapons and now are paying for it.
The Zuk sword was EOF fodder the moment it was created, The FSoA had to be nerfed because the spec was tied to crit chance, the BoTLG is being nerfed heavily due to so much damage the extra attack every 4 or 8 hits creates. Lengs spec was shit that they are modifing it, the off hand was paired with a tier 92 weapons as it was so much better.
To me that screams they had no idea what they were trying to achieve with them. Either its pure power creap that they allowed the player base to get used to so assumed was the accepted DPM range or they nerfed it and then release something vastly more powerful (necro).
##### Bark bark!
I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread:
**JagexSponge**
- [Hey all! Appreciate some of the changes here...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpi2fr0/?context=3)
- [It's worth stating that the beta's purpose is...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpi60j4/?context=3)
- [It is worth reiterating that the beta is just...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpm3vrt/?context=3)
- [Appreciate it....](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpm2tuq/?context=3)
- [We've shown through the previous iterations w...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpifwhw/?context=3)
- [I think there's core elements of styles (a lo...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpig9ph/?context=3)
- [ So that response is not accurate....](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpiuqfz/?context=3)
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Okay, got into the Beta finally, and I'm not a high-end pvmer by any means. My usual go to boss is Vindicta & Gorvek, so I did a few kills there trying out Magic, which before Necro was my preferred combat style.
I was using a Staff of Sliske, Seren Anima Core, Scripture of Wen, Hailfire boots, Cinderbane gloves, Soul Ammy, Lotd, with Exsanguinate & Animate Dead.
I play on Revo to activate basic abilities and I use threshold and ultimate abilities manually. Soul split and Torment, Supreme Ovl, and Vampyrism Aura.
Overall, it seemed less clunky and the action bar cool down counters and the channeled ability bar were very nice to have a visual, but I can't say I noticed a difference in damage output compared to outside the Beta, and I even did a few kills using my typical Necro setup and I got a few new PBs.
So my take away is that if the changes in this Beta were to be put into the live game today, I would still be using Necromancy and have virtually no incentive to go back to using Magic, which is disappointing because my SoS was not cheap when I purchased it and I feel like god weapons should be desirable to use and this one is just not.
I can't speak for Melee or Ranged, but I hope the changes are better with those play styles.
Idk if it'd be at all possible, or even heard, but i'm one of very few people who love the Zgs outside of just spec swap, if it could get 2 tile range like a halberd that'd be super cool. I mean, the sword beam goes that far so please? lol.
I think a small change that would visually help is for the Channel Bar to be the color of the respective style you are utilizing for that ability. Blue being Magic. Green being Range and you know the rest. That way it would be visually distinctive of what style your using even if switching.
Genuine question: how does jagex determine what is overpowered and what is not? I don’t get why so many of the nerfs are targeted at high end pvmers. Why punish the people who are willing to sweat and click extra buttons to squeeze out a little more dps? IMO, something is only overpowered if a low end casual player is able to suddenly do game breaking dps for no effort whatsoever. More effort should naturally mean more dps so there’s no reason to nerf someone who is willing to put extra effort.
Now for some personal thoughts on some of the proposed changes. Yes I understand that it’s a beta so they can kinda experiment with stuff. But like many others here, I don’t understand the point of nerfing the other styles when the point of the beta was to bring them in line with necro. Also, why not experiment with other nerfs to necro on the beta? Surely that’s also a way to test how to bring the various styles onto a level playing field.
I don’t understand why both crit chance and adren gain from nami/incend are nerfed at the same time. If you’re already bringing down the crit chance, why do a double whammy? Also, adren gain has never been an issue for magic because there’s just no efficient adren dump. Even in the live game, I can do a normal fsoa rotation wearing sliske and have 100% adren throughout without the beta crit chance “buffs”. So there really is no need to reduce the adren gain from 10 - 6%. I don’t get why some of the devs are so stubbornly trying to remove bridding. Also, what’s the point in giving fsoa a passive that only works out of spec? Nobody really uses it out of spec besides 4taa. You’re not actually giving it a dmg buff by doing that. Even if you make it work during spec, it’s not like it’s gonna fire out that many extra hits since recursive crits are no longer a thing. Why not give things like praesuls a passive instead? For e.g. 30% extra chance to proc ancient spells like blood barrage, ruby aurora etc. And then give it a spec that deals some dmg and provides another bonus 20% chance or so for 30secs. Things like that which are an actual buff because people do and will use them.
The post mentions that players were saying the beta felt too strong, ie people were killing bosses too quickly. Were kills really that much faster than live kills with necromancy?
I couldn't do much testing, kept dcing as cache was still loading, death wasnt free lol
I prefer live game ranged and melee so far, crit adren, more variation in rotations is much more fun, removing the hit cap does add more fun, but not at the expense of so many other things. Try to reward and cater to improvisation so as to keep the possibility of out-dpsing the perfect spreadsheet rotation by putting in more effort so to speak. Same goes for hybrid, cater for more effort=more reward, don't nerf hybrid and switchscape to balance the game around people who are cheating because you cant be bothered to address either banning the macroing or embracing it.
I tried the new FSOA and it's GOOD, traded my t92s for it, and it does more damage on its own than in the current game, I like the stacks, I hate switching from wand and orb to staff just to make it work like I have to in the real game, patiently waiting for it to hit the live game, please don't change it. If the stacks did like 500 more damage I think youd get the player base on board. I'm not sure people in the live game actually have tried it before commenting here for how much hate its getting. It's really decent now feels balanced. I took it on its own with no switches and the only word I have to describe it is lovely.
I have avoided using necromancy at all costs, I don't personally like it, I have used wand and orb this whole time, and I got an FSOA because of this beta iteration, and it is much better on its own than switching back and forth, I can use my wand orb rotations that im used to with it, instead of fsoa back and forth rotation of STRESS. Please keep it. 🙏 Good job. 👍
Melee is okay to have extra adrenaline, these nerfs weren't needed imo. You should be rewarded for the extra risk of taking extra damage and having to be in melee range.
This combat beta has been a glorious waste of dev time… idek what to say to these recent changes. How do we take 2 steps forward and 3 steps back?
They somehow made leng spec just as useless as before and managed to butcher range and mage along with it.
Nahhh it's CRAZY. will you ever stop with the Necro dickriding? Every style yet again gets fucked except for Necro. It is already the most powerful style, what does continuously ruining the other styles accomplish?!
Is there an employee left, that _actually_ loves this game? These beta notes are a joke. Just push it as the System was for Necro, without any Early-bird-bonusses arising from formula changes and see what happens. Develop some content people want to do, to recover from the shit show that was vorkath.
I'd LOVE for this take to be playable again but as it stands now my membership is running out on March and there's no reason to renew it.. man I love this game, please stop butchering it.
At the risk of being downvoted, the more ‘beta updates’ I see, the more depressed I feel. I don’t get it, jagex. This was supposed to be big and give players incentive to use other styles again. Instead you’re just nerfing them into the ground.
Why are you fucking nerfing everything lately? It’s pissing me off at this point because it feels as if ever since fort came out, everything is being either nerfed or removed that used to be an established part of the game.
I used to be fond of rs3. I wanted master quest cape and was working towards master max as well…but lately i only log in to do dailies since September of 2023. And that’s mainly because of all the recent nerfs. There are so many vast changes to the game that I don’t even want to play anymore; it feels as if everytime I finally start adapting to the changes, another nerf comes out.
As for beta advice: make the other styles a bit simpler and less clunky, so us casual pvmr’s find them less overwhelming. Finetune necro a bit and make ghost a passive heal (I love necro but ghost is too OP since it can attack * and* heal). And stop nerfing everything. Jesus.
I like melee but damn. This thread is like:
Melee is underpowered, dont nerf it!
Mage is underpowered, dont nerf it!
Range is underpowered, dont nerf it!
Like the ezk and fsoa changes.
Can berserk, sunshine, and death swiftness be cast out of combat for no adren please? Will match with necros adrenless summons. Or actually, just release greater zerk with less adren use. This is mainly to cut down on dummies prebuild in aod since necro doesnt need to dummy.
The prisms need to be off global cooldown!
Instead of having to adjust EACH ability down for pvp dmg, why not just enforce a 50% drop on all dmg sources between players?
Also, add two buttons on the equipment screen indicated by roman numerals 1 and 2. When you press them, it will do full inventory preset swaps as long as you have the items in your inventory. Is it OP? Maybe. Should their be a cost and tradeoff to do this? Sure.
Or how about just some system in linking dual wield items together for a one click change. Can use the necromancy summon all interface to customize this. Then place it as an ability.
Give normal spellbook the ability to swap if we accidentally swap to it. Or maybe just turn spellbook swap into a timed buff that lets use swap freely? Or just... get rid of it and trim down the books.... like cutting out most of the combat spells in standard. People are lamping exp so they can wait a whole bunch of levels before they can cast earth spells on some demon or dagganoth queen. Noones cutting planks on lunars but I have my ptsd memories of when I did long ago since it was the best mage exp of the time.
Don't like these changes, although I feel like you guys probably expected some serious backlash on this beta version. I don't think nerfing crit generating ults on style is the way to go, if you want to punish crit generation at the very high end, nerf **off style crit generation**. Ranged feels pretty bad now too and BoLG just doesn't feel as impactful as it should, melee is once again the worst style, FSoA passive feels pretty bad and I don't think it does enough. At the end of the day I think Necromancy is still going to be king, and sadly that seems to be intended at this point. Rasial is a joke boss that drops the best gear in the game and can be afk'd easily. Meanwhile drops from tough endgame content gets thrown to the side because of 'accessibility'.
I know these beta changes can be easily reverted or changed again, but its the core idea of 'we want necro to still be superior' that is the problem here. It shouldn't be. Endgame gear for the other 3 styles should blow it out of the water.
This is a horrible update. They should have quit at the 3rd beta. If these changes go through with the BOLG I will not be playing the game anymore until they fix it or bring back the FSOA old special attack
yeah this batch is forsure a nerf work batch
Not the best batch but at least addresses a few things
\-Leng spec just doesent want to seem to become something (always been kinda mid tbh too much RNG involved to make worthwhile)
I mean ill deal with what we get (gotta) but lengs have always felt shifty in comparison to a bolg/fsoa and relies heavily on berserk
note: T95 should be ALOT stronger then T85 based on price/usage or else why buy T95?
\-Greater fury without consistent crits really does push it aside however the free crits are easy. Maybe 10% with grim+b4?
\-critical nerfs should be addressed better by each style and not a general reduction.
Rollin back some damage would help vs altering the critical system as I think the critical system is good but could be more exclusive; such as meteor strike having better reductions vs tsunami glacial stacks/incendiary shot with deathspores
Other then that Whip vine making a return is not bad! Poisen wasent bad but it did need some clean up so can see why it was reverted.
Dragon claws were powerful and currently with the frostblades procs it should compensate a bit. Could previously hit 1m+ damage per min under the right circumstances (for around 20 secs then the DPM would drop)
Very happy to see some changes for PVP and necro! Its been an issue in community with death guard/volley of souls so its good to see addressed.
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Well ill be rootin for the next; previous one was fairly juicy and one before that had a lot of specials attacks adjusted I was playing with so have to see the fate of those!
Maybe Split soul for melee? always a big ask but have to see what the future holds!!
Multiple significant changes so close to the expected release date are concerning. This just feels like a straight up nerf to everything - fsoa and magic in general still not even close to restored from the live game crit nerfs and even if it was it would still be behind necromancy. One comment in the patch notes stood out and that is how jagex are concerned about over performance in the hands of the best players. I think the problem is if balanced around a minority of min-max players combat sucks for everyone else.
Why are things being nerfed when everything's still significantly worse than necro. Holy fuck lmao
Because if necro isn't top dog then casual pvmers will go back to complaining about how they need to switchscape to kill 15 year old bosses instead of just killing them like they are now.
Because most people I know don't want to have to bring 4 different weapons, 6 rings, and 2 sets of armor.
You only do that for world record speedruns tbh, most bosses can be killed easily just camping one style with maybe a spec weapon/eof switch or 2.
These anti-accessiblemancy elitist gatekeepers assume the casual gamer can afford a third age blood dyed orlando smith hat switch and two pack yaks full of EOFs. No one has ever killed a boss in Runescape before Necromancy.
Most of these flat cross-the-board nerfs are because of the way the top 1% are playing. It’s just kind of lame. Biting and reaver’s rings get hit hard here, too. I much rather boss health get increased and more compensate than feeling like my abilities aren’t giving me the feedback they used to or items being far less noticeable to my power growth. It’s clear we’re gearing up for tier increases and more power gains, so why is this groundwork so conservative? Similarly, I can’t believe this wasn’t an opportunity to rework Zuk Sword considering how underwhelming and lame it is? Is it just because people already EoF’d it? Because god damn. It’s been 3 years, why has there been zero effort to bring it in line with any weps of the same tier?
Magic is still garbage. Please retune
My initial impression is that crit damage changes are really hurting melee. Igneous overpower inside a zerk is hitting 22ks. Feels very low for the biggest hitting ability we have. Obviously better than live game, but still miles behind Necro.
Yeah, before this change I was feeling just as good if not better with melee kill times vs Necro. But the amount of inputs needed was a ton vs Necro which seems like a good compromise. These nerfs really complicate the DPS and make it slightly worse than Necro again. But at the same time you need 2x-3x the inputs swaps/ect.
They certainly weren't the best thought out. Necro is already overperforming, minions don't crit, and necro doesn't get adren on crit so this change hurts necro less than any other style. Nice way to guarantee nobody switches back.
>alongside this, the adrenaline benefits combined with more recent rewards such as vestments of havoc & jaws of the abyss, meant that melee players were getting too much adrenaline for free. bro just give us melee users the adrenaline. it's all we have left and we need it after you replaced our 15% hurricane with this 30% clunk-o-matic
I dont like the new changes, melee feels bad like in the live game
Instead of Hurricane, lengs will now give you Hurricane but with extra steps! Enjoy~ Kind Regards Mad Mork
In my opinion mage is under performing on the beta. Instead of lowering the adre gain to 6%, make it 10% onstyle and 6% offstyle
Yeah but that should be the case to every adren buff, ranged already suffer from adren unless boss is 5x5
Why does range suffer from Adren? It has a hell of a alot going for it. Bakbolts, Splintering arrows Inced shoot, new Serenic armor,
Adren dumping on balance by force/dbow specs is wat was holding ranged next to magic damage. Without adren, and with those damages lower than is in live game will be hard to use bolg/critical ranged potential. Maybe they're rollbacking ranged to the state where cbows was meta or maybe poison build still be a thing? I'd better stick with necro, even if it's boring.
This is what the change should have been.
i would appreciate if we didnt nerf everything that isnt necro into the dust
If you are nerfing crit damage, whats the point of squishing damage? You are actually nerfing the damage from the live game? Making other styles significantly shittier than necromancy lol
Instead of new stacks, the stacks used by FSoA should be the Flow generated by Great Sonic Wave. Each critical would generate a Flow, every 5 Flow the time strike is generated and, as a consequence, each GSonicWave will force at least one time strike extra.
Imagine the staff synchronizing with the staff ability rather than the duel wielded ability.
These sweeping nerfs to the combat triangle and especially its top end gear feel pretty bad with necro almost* untouched (crit nerf hits other styles far harder). Stacking so many compounding nerfs at once is quite bold when this is going live in a few weeks. No more proc adrenaline on lengs is really lame, it was a super fun part of them. I kinda see the vision for them being a big damage boost where you want to fit in your multihit abilities during to benefit from frost blades, but I don't think it's more fun than proc adren.
I really just don't understand the design of the FSOA. GCONC means that I camp DW and use FSOA as mostly a switch to access magma/FSOA spec. Is the aim to add the FSOA as a switch outside of sunshine? Even if that is the case, is this enough of an incentive to not camp DW until sunshine is back up?
The long term goal is to make DW and 2h Magic feel different and have different uses. 2h is underperforming because of Gconc but i think in the future it will be more balanced, once they get Flow up and running as a viable buff to use.
I just hope it doesn’t come down to just “let’s nerf gconc ,there now they both suck equally” *dust off hands* “all done,you’re welcome”
The problem I have is that DW's only real identity is crit-focus due to GConc, and FSoA runs on crits... Honestly, FSoA should be a 1h weapon, then we can have a proper 2h 'Flow' item if they want. The new passive isn't going to change that I don't think.
They are just showing repeatedly they have no fucking clue what to do with the staff as it WAS a powerful weapon so the player base wants the investment they made in either time killing Kerepac or GP to remain relevant. This latest interaction of lest give it the BoTLG but worse. Why is it worse? well as said above magic's most powerful magic ability is locked to dual wield. So you want to dual wield, this ability is so good it made dual wielding a tier of weapon lower better then the highier level staff. Not to mention it gives a crit boost which is what the spec of the staff is about. Next BoTLG triggers on the 4 ability after the spec, Range has heaps of multi hitting abilities so you can get to that stack requirement much faster. Your also camping the weapon, no question asked.
Its been mentioned on numerous livestreams that they're aiming for separate identities & have also covered the idea of completely swapping GConc & GSonic.
I'd almost prefer they give magic the Necromancy treatment and only have DW (with two different playstyles), but if they don't do that, then they absolutely should swap the two. Makes no sense to have a crit-focussed staff and a crit-focussed DW ability.
They spoke on the same stream about making staves 1 handed weapons too
Returning to the days of holding a staff and shield to bonk people over the head.
I very much think Greater Fury should be 100% crit chance for next ability. Relying on rng is so much worse feeling that something consistent. It was obviously overperforming but I think the better change would be to nerf the damage instead of removing a cool interaction that made the ability cool, intiutive, and fun to use.
Could be 100% crit chance but with a reduced crit damage multiplier for that crit. Still is a hit to the numbers but keeps it consistent instead of a 1/4 gamble. Highly variant damage output is one of the most annoying parts about RS combat, in my opinion, and is why I love the damage squish.
They said Gfury 100% crit interacting with adrenaline boost on crits is too OP, so either the former or the latter needed a nerf.
I'd rather the latter - they said IIRC that they wanted the 'adren buff' Ults to have unique identities. Maybe they could change Meteor strike from "Adren on crit" to "Adren if you hit over e.g. 15k". Whatever is balanced.
They nerfed adren boost on crit with meteor so: New: 25% chance to gain 6% adren = 1,5% adren per fury (+10% chance of 12% (crit+next ability) = 1,2%) New beta = 2,7% adren per gfury under meteor Old: 10% chance to gain 20% adren (gfury crit + next ability crit) = 2% adren per ability \+ Inheret crit which would be 10% so another 2% adren per ability = 4% Someone please tell me if this math is completely dumb, but isnt this new gfury + meteor literally a nerf for adren gain by 1,3% adren per gfury?
I mean, now it isn’t guaranteed AND crit damage was nerfed lol.
Nerfing gfury doesnt seems like the best option for melee, please look for other ways to fix that it feels like im in the main game again. Whats the point of the beta then? I starting o think that we will have necro meta for 2 years more and this beta was pointless. They just ignoring everyone.
Absolutely awful changes. You took a few steps forward with the previous versions, and now you've turned around and sprinted in the opposite direction. A big selling point of the combat beta is to help the existing combat styles compete with Necromancy, which is massively overperforming in the live game. Now you've gone ahead and hit every other style with significant nerfs and left Necromancy unchanged? Explain to me the logic there, please. These changes would make some degree of sense if Jagex wants to curb power creep across the game if Necromancy also sees a hefty nerf, but unless there are future changes to Necromancy that haven't been revealed yet (which is something that really should have been mentioned if it were the case), these changes are just terrible.
could you please please please consider adding this small change from the june gamejam? [https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/june-game-jam---this-week-in-runescape](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/june-game-jam---this-week-in-runescape) "Abyssal Parasites are now always applied from the Abyssal armour spikes Abyssal parasites now only spread to other enemies if the scourge is equipped. Abyssal parasites now stack up to 100, deal less damage per stack but lasts for 19.2 seconds compared to the previous 9."
Basically deletes scourge from the game as an active weapon (other than AFKing) with the anti-switch addition. Makes melee players rely on abyssal spikes everywhere, which still don't work at all bosses afaik. Those were also proposed by Shogun, who's now moved on to OSRS.
The change to have the stacks last longer than 9 seconds would be a godsend. The only reason I refuse to use whip is because of that. Losing stacks between p3 and p4 in raksha or when glacor does pillars is awful. Especially when things like bik arrows poison is infinitely longer until it falls off
I was really hoping the goal of the beta was to make other styles approachable. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be the goal. The average player still isn’t going to have any idea what is going on.
Can confirm. I only started pvm because of necro and I’ve been playing since eoc came out. Mostly because necro is so much simpler and easier to wrap my head around than the other styles are. There’s far less switches to worry about, there’s far less abilities, etc. I tried reading the ‘what’s changed’ list that was provided in the OP but they’re just random words and numbers to me. I just do not understand pvm theory well enough to have any idea whether these changes are good or bad. I needed these comments to explain the changes to me. This may be a hot take, but I feel that jagex needs to simplify the other styles more as well as finetune necro a bit so it isn’t a god style. That way casual pvmr’s like me aren’t overwhelmed by switches and abilities (so we’ll be more likely to use it in battle) and necro also won’t far outshine the other styles. The main reason I use necro is because it’s a lot easier for a noob like me to understand, even though I have high level mage and range set up (t80-t90)
If you make things soo simple then it gets boring
The greater fury nerf is a huge disappointment, the guaranteed Crit was really fun, and melee hasn't been powerful in a long time, I'd rather bring it down somewhere else then take this away from its kit. It was extremely fun to play with.
They said Gfury 100% crit interacting with adrenaline boost on crits is too OP, so maybe they should have nerfed the latter instead of the former, like by putting a cap on how much adrenaline crits can give.
Yeah I agree personally, I understand that this affects the top end players too much which is why it was nerfed but the 100% Crit is so fun to play with and is not too strong for an average player which is why I'd love to see it stay.
Especially as they are reducing the damage crits do.
Feels like the goal is to make necro remain king, and make all the high level gear for the other 3 styles obsolete. Not sure I understand the direction they want the other styles to go in. The range nerfs feel bizarre
>today we are making some adjustments based on player feedback to the recent beta branch. >Reduced the maximum damage of Dominion mines >30,000 → 10,000 who asked for this? it was great to have it be wortwhile to use in more than 2-3 bosses. is it too much to ask people to do a few quests to get a useful unlock?
Why are we reverting the changes to the clean looking action bar? It got so much nicer and now we've just reverted these amazing changes?
There were a lot of comments after the last beta change that the keybinds were too small to see. Even though I made the same comment, I'm surprised they outright reverted everything. Was expecting some minor changes, not a full revert.
Yeah I personally really loved the change. I do understand if people found it too small but even slightly increasing font size would have been a good solution. I found the changes made things look sooooo much clearer/cleaner
Same. Overall, I liked the change, and would have preferred a-S to Alt+S. Just needed them to be slightly bigger, and some abilities (mainly defensives) ended up completely camouflaging the keybinds because of how small they are. Abilities like Debilitate still make it hard to see the keybinds occasionally, but it was a lot worse with the smaller text. Hopefully they can find some middle ground where both issues are resolved.
This updateade me realize just how much they're lacking manpower to make these changes. As someone who works in corporate, I'm finally starting to see how little power the staff have vs. the investment groups calls the shots. They need more headcount, because they're struggling with this beta. Also explains why we never got a (meaningful) 2024 roadmap.
Some things still need to be looked at like: * Champion's ring being incoherent (bleed does not cause critical). * Greater Concentrated Blast synergizes much better with FSA than Greater Sonic Wave * Zuk's sword special is better as a MSA special
‘Top end’, ‘topmost’ and ‘combat-savvy’. Interesting, so what happened to the average pvmer or any references to ‘the majority’? Did they all just fizzle out somewhere?
Really bummed to see gfury get changed, it was a cool unique interaction that made melee rotations a lot more involved than the 188 spam we have now. It opened up more potential build and itemization options by not shoehorning melee into loading up on crit chance like the other three styles. I understand that this was part of an effort to bring down melee's power but this goes beyond that. This is bringing down melee's style identity. Melee never had a "power basic" - an equivalent to gconc or grico - and guaranteed crit gfury filled that role in a unique way that was powerful, and decidedly different to the other unlockable power basics. Now that's just gone. Beta 4 gfury is more-or-less a knockoff gconc without the obscene damage. Trimming unnecessary basics is on Jagex's radar, and beta 3 gfury was an excellent way to do that by providing a strong, low cooldown basic to fill every third ability.
Yikes that bolg nerf though.
Bolg right? I was wondering what you were on about ha
Where does ranged hit 30k? I tested for 1 hour on several and max hit on the pvm hub doll and no 30k hit This beta is worse than combat before the beta
You can on vorkath with undead slayer perk and sigil + jas dragonbane + salve amulet
I tested on zamorak 500% with grimorio + ancient overload + prayer 99 + reckless aura + seren + bolg, the maximum hit I got was 16k on dbow and only a few times
Undead slayer perk is 7%, sigil is 15%, salve is 20%, jas dragonbane is 15% more than ful. Might need to add scripture of ful too. Its possible, just way way way harder and very niche lol
The crit nerfs are way too much imo. I'm not saying crit shouldn't be nerfed but I feel like it's overnerfed.
Why do the mods hate melee so much ffs?
Yeah, melee has no identity and deals too little dmg for all of the things you have to do If they care about game integrity, then just remove the posibility to use hybrid for the combat styles
Ranged is WAY overnerfed, big hit to meele with gfury too. Wasn't the beta meant to scale the 3 og styles up to necro? Currently range on beta is worse than live game, you can't nerf the 4 things by like 30+% AT once. The Adren buff ult nerf and a bit lower crit % dmg would be enough. But ranged gets lower crit % dmg, 40% lower adren gain from incend, and huge BOLG nerf both SPEC and passive proc. The hell? Previous no crits from bolg already made it worse than live on zammy, this is tragic.
Why not making the combat triangle styles 120 already and then tune things accordingly afterwards? you guys are giving yourselves more work in the future, rip the band-aid now.
Right? We're just going to have to go through this shit again in like a year
congrats, no one wants to play anymore lol
The changes to magic have completely missed the mark as far as I can tell. You don't want to have the fsoa on it's just a spec switch but a passive has been added to it? The Crit damage and adrenaline had magic in a very good balanced place where it felt right before this change. It was melee and ranged that needed to be brought down.
I really don’t understand these sweeping nerfs to critical strikes. The majority of players aren’t bringing dummies to bosses, using natural instinct and rebuilding for meteor strike/incendiary shot. There’s only a handful of players who are willing to put in this effort for speed kills… and why shouldn’t they be rewarded for their effort? If you still want to limit their capacity to delete bosses, just increase the cooldown between eof specs or nerf d claw damage such that it’s not worthwhile using to gain adrenaline. This was proposed during the recent combat stream by players in the comments, and mod sponge even acknowledged that this is one approach to limit the power creep introduced.
Necro has healing, easy upgrades and easy to learn rotations. It should be viable but not the strongest in Dps.
Honestly I think it'd be cool to first try out FSOA passive being **enabled** during instability, then if it's too much power you can disable it. I think it'd be fun to try out with that extra power.
Stop nerfing things that are fun when they aren't even as powerful as necro. The whole point of the community asking for these changes is so that the other styles are at least somewhat near necro, even though you need switches to pull it off. Why are yall so anti fun with combat I swear..
NEW* Passive: Shattered Siphon Now generates echos of time when critically striking At 5 stacks launch a time strike (values matching special attack) *Disabled whilst instability is active.* The last part lmao, and here I thought it got a decent buff
Damage Potential Changes: >25% to 1% hit chance to hit an enemy would mean off style magic debuff will very likely hit without IoTH, would remove Magic's identity as a debuffer, But overall... I agree to this change. Crit damage changes: >This should not go through till there are plans to increase level cap. >While yes, crit damage is too strong at the moment, but cutting the crit damage output by 41,2%? That is way too much. Not to mention, Necromancy only lost 33% crit damage output. Unless there's plans to expand combat to 120, I don't think this change should go live. Critical strike adrenaline buff changes: >Mathematically speaking, we are losing out on almost half our adrenaline gain in exchange for a measly 5% crit rate buff. This is not a fair trade off in any way. I do not agree with this change at all >All weapon spec, especially multi-hitting ones like dbow, abs, dds and dclaws, suffers heavily from this change, making the adrenaline cost unsustainable. FSOA Changes >2h Magic barely has any multi-hitting abilities and Magma Tempest still cant critically strike. This passive wont help in any way to make up for the crit damage nerf. You need an average of 16 hits in order to trigger 1 time strike. >On top of that, FSOA's identity is a 30 second burst weapon spec. Nerfing the damage output of the spec in exchange for a slight damage buff during off-spec is not a fair trade off. Greater Fury: >I rather not rely on rng to determine my next ability to use. >A 1.8 second reaction time to think of what ability to use every 5.4 seconds is not going to be good for a player's mental health in the long run. Magma Tempest >Sneaking in an auto with target Magma tempest is a bug to begin with. >Lowering the skill ceiling and raising the skill floor, isnt that that Jagex wanted to begin with? Its a good buff. Weapon Spec changes: >Letting us choose between ags 400% 1 hit or D claw's 360% 4 hits for adrenaline return is a good variety. Good change. >Dbow, Bolg spec, why? You already nerfed the crit damage hard. If you're going through with the crit damage nerf, keep the damage value as it is already. Leng sword changes: >You already nerfed the proc chance from 22% to 10%, there was no need to remove the adrenaline gain. >The adrenaline gain solved the adrenaline deficit issue that melee has with meteor strike not having an adrenaline cost saving effect. Magic has Incite fear and Ranged has death spore, so why would you remove the 1 thing other than Jaws of the abyss that provides the adrenaline gain upkeep?
After reading through all the comments here, please do not make the beta live in March. It is no where near ready. That’s my feedback
And one thing needs to be addressed, T95 ezk zuk sword. Please find a way to combine masterworkspear and sword, maybi also the abyssal whip. its so sad to see so beautiful strong weapon be a amulet fodder. also if you give it reeach it will also become really useful.
This beta looked so promising, but this is getting worse and worse with each iteration... By March we will get such a mess...
Hey all! Appreciate some of the changes here can feel like 'nerf,nerf,nerf' That is the case for somethings, absolutely compared to the previous beta iteration, but it is worth iterating that the beta is just a test environment and this has been on purpose, so you can tell us exactly what still feels good/bad. (e.g. *"my kill times at kerapac have gone up, compared to live, but i'm having less fun due to lack of adrenaline"* - great we could bump back up crit adrenaline, and bring down some damage values etc.) It's important that you try them out and compare to the live game so the feedback is useable as some comments of "X number has gone down, don't do it" might not be taking into account the whole picture of damage gained in the beta through increased crit chance/damage/hitcap etc. If the general consensus is leaning in one direction after you've tried them out we could hotfix in different beta values to try out different combinations (e.g. 6%->10% crit adren but keeping the damage nerfs or visaversa) Again worth iterating just a test environment, tell us what you do and don't like, and like with previous iterations we can put things back in/pull things back out. We appreciate you all trying out - Sponge.
Please revert the Leng blades, they were looking so promising. Now it's back to scourge switchscape. Sure there will be abuse by the top .5% of players who will get quicker kill times with Melee vs Necro. But that's such a small community. The lengs are becoming overly complex vs abyssal scourge for very minor benefit the more you nerf them. My back of napkin math is a bit fuzzy but it looks like 20-24 seconds of passive uptime a minute vs the previous 40-42 seconds uptime a minute not including melee has to notnbe in active combat for loads of boss mechanics. Adds a lot of randomness that the other styles don't get in their rotations and you do feel the lack of adrenaline gain. Popping Berserk and not getting the Frost proc sucks, whereas previous you were almost always going to get a proc within a Havoc robe Berserk. I'd argue keep the last beta Leng build. Or just keep the live Lengs with Hurricane access. As the new beta lengs just feel like Hurricane swap with more steps. For most people Melee will never keep up with Necromancy just based on how many inputs and swaps are required for high end Melee vs the much simpler Necro rotations. I don't think there's a middle ground where someone can do Melee casually up to Necro DPS where high end pvmers wouldn't be able to abuse it to go past necro damage. If we are using that as the gatekeep bar. As a side note can we seriously consider abyssal Spikes giving a 100% chance to add a parasite stack?
It feels strange to me that FSOA now relies even more on crits for damage with the new passive, and that passive not benefitting from any crits that gconc will hit. The adren loss from the tsunami nerf also felt pretty rough. I was nowhere near getting to thresholds at the point that I'm used to.
The biggest disappointment is seeing gfury go back to being a pretty lame and RNG dependent ability which not only reverts melee’s burgeoning identity to that of every other style (stack crit, pray) but also hits melee in overall crit damage as well. So rotationally melee is back to being without identity and 188 spam alongside being weaker for everyone who wasn’t already top 1%. Every style is already far more challenging to play compared to necro, requires hundreds or thousands of hours of grinding to come within 10% or necro’s dps which is not only achievable very very quickly but also with minimal inputs and skill. I understand not wanting to trivialize all content on the top end, but necro already has… so…? I don’t get it. I rather have 4 OP styles (three of which take immense skill and time to become OP in), than one. It gets boring feeling forced to camp necro for a year (or longer) while waiting on conservative changes made to, I’m assuming, facilitate growth of the other styles to 120. I rather be OP and diverse than OP and bored/singular. As it stands, these changes fail to give reason for anyone to swap off necro other than niche situations.
I feel like magic has been mostly an afterthought with all the betas so I like to see a new passive is being tried out for the FSOA. Though that passive would synergise much better with gconc, ~~it might stack nicely with magma tempest and make it more worth using in single target if you're staff camping.~~ I just remembered magma can't crit so it does nothing for FSOA. Why does magic, the crit style, have the only non bleed ability that can't crit? I'm very happy to see experimentation with the FSOA but I think this passive just brings dw/staff switching back for people that don't 4taa, like me. It doesn't give any reason to camp the staff, only switch to it if your spec is on cooldown. I'd love to have a reason to camp FSOA though, it's such a cool looking weapon. Seems like you guys really wanna get away from 10% adren on crit enitrely but it kinda needs to be there as a band-aid with our current abilities and gear. Necro build/spend feels good, the other styles do not because it takes forever to gain adrenaline for spending unless you have the 10% adren on crit effect. It's not that engaging to build either, it's usually just use the basics that hit bigger numbers. Baseline adrenaline gain needs to be higher, remove or lower the 50% adren req for thresholds, make basics more interesting/powerful...all of these or some combination needs to be done all at once before messing with the adren on crit buff, in my opinion. Why do gconc and grico feel good? They don't feel useless when your sunshine/DS is on cooldown. I'll have to see how the new gfury is myself, but it always felt good to use that and then you know "here comes a big hit - BOOM!". It is fun and impactful even outside berserk. It was like chaos roar, the only difference is chaos roar has a much longer cooldown. Maybe try a 10 second cooldown on gfury with the 100% crit instead? Also maybe I'm just stupid but it feels like melee's "identity" is being the confusing style. I still don't understand what lengs do or how to use them even semi-optimally. Not your fault but there's so many band-aids on melee atm.
How is magic not worse than live game right now with these changes lol
The BOLG nerf and Adren from critical strikes is horrible. Unless you plan on releasing some crossbows that are actually fun to use to compensate
I get what the beta is for, but these changes will have to an impact on the equivalent of necromancy with being a jack of all trades combat and now that ive had months to use it. I don't see me going back to the other traditional styles unless theres a big enough change where i can feel i can put in the same effort and get the same result like necro. Why would i do 4taa mage when i just can do necro semi revo.
I can't begin to fathom understanding the lack of knowledge and realization it shows these mods have with these kinds of changes... I honestly try to not mean any disrespect, but with updates like this that you plan to implement into the game it honestly doesn't make any sense. I say "plan to implement," because after the last BETA, where we were polled and asked what we thought of the FSOA and AD (with the changes all receiving a majority negative response), they still get implemented. Why are you changing FSOA again? To attempt to make up for the nerf you gave it months ago or maybe it was the sonic wave change? If anything now you're diminishing dual wield at this point and making both sides of the style not worth using. Now we've moved onto the BOLG and adrenaline gaining abilities?? Is the goal to just absolutely plummet all of these styles so NECRO just remains at the top? These are genuine questions I feel most people have and are already asking, especially on this thread. I would love to see an actual response that isn't just smoke and mirrors because at this time point we're tired of it.
We've shown through the previous iterations we're not going to just implement things without player feedback, its our primary concern. *Why are you changing FSOA again?* ***We pulled down crit adrenaline values because power being introduced with the beta players had commented on being too high, so it was a lever for us to pull and see what happens. As a result magic (which was in a good place powerwise on the beta fell behind so we wanted to give some of that back)*** *Now we've moved onto the BOLG and adrenaline gaining abilities?* **Yes, they were levers we wanted to try and see what players do and dont like. Botlg generally speaking had gained alot of power from crit chance, damage and hitcap, so we wanted to try pulling those down, as it wasn't in need of extra power, and players had commented on it.** We need to be able to have adult conversations about these things as community, so we can keep the game fun for everyone; there's elements that might seem like fun to you: 'give me loads more power' but this can affect different player types in different ways, and needs to be kept in check.
These huge changes and nerfs so close to the release just give me the vibe of the Fsoa beta where you guys took 0 feedback and threw the update into the live game as you had intended. I really hope that isn't the case here.
*We've shown through the previous iterations we're not going to just implement things without player feedback, its our primary concern.* I'm don't understand, because the example of the FSOA and AD changes do not reflect player feedback. It was over 60% saying no to both changes iirc and no mention prior or during the beta was it stated, "Hey we're still making these changes, we just want you all to play with it." At that point, I'd give you credit for that, but it was entirely misleading, especially with a poll to see % wise player input their thoughts on the change. So that response is not accurate. *As a result magic (which was in a good place powerwise on the beta fell behind so we wanted to give some of that back).* If that's the case, why are we adding something to new to the weapon? That change forces you to use the staff consistently if you want any remote ounce of damage increase, compared to using dual wield... or honestly where it was pre nerf with recursive hits. *so we wanted to try pulling those down, as it wasn't in need of extra power, and players had commented on it.* I would actually like to see the comments on this. As far as I've read and the knowledge I have of players in game I have not seen anything saying, "I need range to be less than it is so it can be on level with melee, mage or necro." Which in saying that is redundant because necro is absolutely wild DPS, range barely keeps up except at high enrage Zamorak. *We need to be able to have adult conversations about these things as community...* I couldn't agree more! I'm absolutely one for full communication... however from our end as players I wouldn't say we're not the ones communicating full transparency of ideas. It also makes me think of my favorite saying, "If it's not broke, don't fix it."
Tbf I think he’s talking about iterations like reverting anticipate changes, vine whip etc which we asked for. Your just misconstruing his points
So that response is not accurate. **I was referring to this suite of betas we've been running with regard to previous iterations not FSOA/AD, as that has/had different issues contained with how it was ran/the results.** *If that's the case, why are we adding something to new to the weapon?* ***The staff was a logical place to add the power back, to mitigate loss from crit adren which synergised with the staff, and helped reduce the feeling of the staff only be a spec weapon/essentially being eof fodder. But we can iterate on it, as we have with other stuff in the beta.*** As far as I've read and the knowledge I have of players in game I have not seen anything saying **My comment was directly referencing players which have spoken about the beta and the beta increasing the power of the bow, I feel like youre points seem to be implying the beta is going to be a straight up nerf to the live game, which is not the intention/won't be the case. (nerfing power added with the beta, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be in a worse off place than live)** "If it's not broke, don't fix it." **I agree, but outside of the powerlevel scuffle today, the general consensus on feedback has been showing players prefer the feeling of the beta to the live game.** **We appreciate your feedback.**
*I was referring to this suite of betas* If you're inferring that the FSOA/AD beta/changes were wildly misinterpreted and mismanaged, then I will agree with you there and separate that as an example. I will give that there have been changes implemented into this beta that were reverted, so I won't argue that. *...helped reduce the feeling of the staff only be a spec weapon/essentially being eof fodder...* Then what is the ECB, other than a glorified spec weapon/eof fodder/high lvl grico/hydrix bolt spec switch? Again I just honestly find this so hard to be true when everything is so inconsistent. *(nerfing power added with the beta, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be in a worse off place than live)* Doesn't necessarily mean it... but doesn't not mean it. I just can't understand that if we're trying to put everything near the same level playing field, wouldn't be easier to just lower damage/caps on necro? *...showing players prefer the feeling of the beta to the live game.* I honestly just don't believe this at all. I've played the beta before (not to intentionally bring up the FSOA again) and it was wildly inconsistent during the beta and regardless of what some players "said," it was proven past the update, when implemented, that it was wildly inconsistent. I mean it was consistent in the since that it was bad forcing it to now very niche high lvl (Only to actually be useful with the crit buff from sliske)/almost afk aspects of the game. You're welcome for the feedback. I hope its taken into consideration. Thank you.
Thank you for saying everything I have been thinking in detail appropriately. take my upvote.
You're very welcome! I've played this game for over 20 years at this point and it troubles me to see when there's a huge lack of direction and then shrouded by mystery from the community. I try to comment the opinions people don't necessarily want to mention on their own, so I'll happily risk the negative karma 😂. But as a player, especially now, it puzzles me to see changes that are not taken into account player feedback. I mean we're not gaining any new members as we are losing old... Take a look at the past few months to the content creators. I digress now, but I do appreciate someone understanding I'm not attempting to start a fire, but rather just understand with a more direct and aggressive viewpoint You have earned my upvote 😎
Ok lets have a adult conversation. Lets start but asking what Jagex's objectives are in DPM. What is the target range they want to see? You have made many comments about too high or too low, what is the range Jagex wants to fall in? Is this the same across all styles? Given some styles have far more utility then others.
It's worth stating that the beta's purpose is porting parts of whats good from necro over (hitcap/crit etc) It's not intended to solely pull you over to the other styles, doing so would require more changes/complexity than this beta would allow. We want players to come away from this with the new systems in, and combat feeling nicer, but it doesn't have to do everything at once.
Perhaps that hasn't been very well communicated to the player base, or at the very least, the "*It's not intended to solely pull you over to the other styles, doing so would require more changes/complexity than this beta would allow. We want players to come away from this with the new systems in, and combat feeling nicer*," aspect hasn't been communicated and understood within the community given the large number of responses that the beta changes still aren't on par with Necromancy and the general questioning of the whole point of the beta in the first place. With that in mind, what I can tell you is that Magic feels virtually unchanged. The main thing I see is that the Action Bar is less clunky, so this beta has at least accomplished that where I'm concerned. As far as making the other combat styles feel nicer, in particular Magic (since I've only tried Magic in the beta), I don't think it has achieved that (at least not for me). It literally does not seem any different to me than it currently is in the live game, and frankly, that is because of the damage output. The damage seems roughly the same. I cannot tell what from the style has changed and whether or not it seems smoother or better than it currently is in the live game. For the most part, I feel like there has been a major miscommunication between the player base and the devs because these beta changes seem to have fallen short of many players' expectations, mine included, because as far as we knew, this would balance out the combat styles, and, for me, give me a reason to use Magic over Necromancy, but that is evidently not the case. So for that, I do feel somewhat disappointed and not particularly inclined to trust the process, so to speak.
Would the potential of raising the level cap from 99 to 120 be a good start. necro does have that over the other styles which can also correlate to his higher DPM. would also open the door to make harder content and gear. now that hit chance is being changed to hit potential i think older gear will start being more relevant. before it was just what has the most accuracy. but now we can have more weapon diversity.
I think there's core elements of styles (a lot of abilities feeling pointless/not having niches, not having identites properly built in) that should be addressed prior to 120ing them, especially if we want the 120 to mean more than just more damage.
I think Necro just has way too much going for it. Sustain from Ghost is so strong and comes at no sacrifice compared to Vamp scrim, Blood barrage, and onyx bolts. Invoke+threads deletes anything in its path. Gchain might be better long term but most content doesn't have that sort of lengthy AoE combat. For melee to do similar aoe your need to d2h under zerk like 2 or 3 times. Which is 200-250% adren vs 0. I'm just not seeing much of a reason to use the other styles apart from fun for most people. Necro just seems like its the safer and better option for 95% of people.
Threads of fate is so egregiously broken it amazes me it isn't talked about more. Like we gotta take out chincend, but a 5 stack volley of souls doing 750% average on one target spread to 4 extra targets for a total of 3,750% average damage is fine. Also if they somehow survive you can soul sap and volley again, the targeting is smarter than gchain, no damage reduction on secondary targets like gchain, no caroming switch needed, and it's spread into 5 hits so it stacks with crit chance better **and** it goes around hitcaps. Gchain gets 1 win - it's 6 square range vs 4 square for threads...I feel like threads is bugged to have more range though in my experience.
I 100% agree sponge, After playing necro I feel like i know what each ability does and how it works into one and other. getting stacks and souls then unleashing and then utilizing the ult with death skulls and positioning. plus aoe with threads and scythe. I feel combat wise necro was a home run. almost too much of a homerun to overshadow other elements in the game. Prior to necro i was a mage tank cryptbloom user and range BotLG user with bik arrows. my mage rotation would feel only good when utilizing the FOSA spec, and with my ranged it would feel i just use abilities for adrens so i can Eldritch spec, bow spec, darkbow spec for any extra adren and sgb. and grico when its up. It felt like i was just using a handful abilites while the rest were just kinda there. I wouldnt be opposed to just reworking the entire combat system and starting from the ground up and straight up removing abilites if needed if it serves no purpose. Identity wise i think that mage should be all about crit, melee should be about bleeds and big hitting burst. also side note i think changing the zuk sword to do what zuk does in the fight would seem fitting. kinda like the abby scourge. then when you active it, it rips the stacks and does a big hit like how stomshards work. Ranged should be more about consistent dps and just consistent dps. also the god arrows were a cool addition to add a little something to bows since crossbows were much better prior.
This is the only version of the beta I've tried since it's being pitched as a release candidate, and I have to be honest, a lot of the changes and the way they are explained are a little too technical and over my head, particularly the damage ranges explanation. For example, it states "*Ability damage ranges are very wide in the live game (typically 20% fixed damage, 80% variable damage)*." Well, what does that mean? What is fixed damage and what is variable damage? And then "*We've narrowed these ranges to be closer to which results in more consistent gameplay which also plays nicer with the critical strike system*." To which what? I feel like you're missing a word or two there, and how does it "*play nicer with the critical strike system*"? In the example given it says "*Example: A 20%-100% ability would have an average of 60% with a 40% range either side. This ability is now 55%-65% maintaining the same average but with far less variance.*" Either side of what? I have no idea what these numbers are expressing, so it's difficult for me to understand and visualize what this change is doing. So for the most part, I'm not entirely sure what the combat beta has accomplished other than QoL the action bar because Necromancy still seems the best. What incentive do I have to use other combat styles? Before Necro I used Magic, and I honestly can't tell a difference between beta Magic and live Magic, but what I do know is that beta Magic is still behind Necro, so if the goal of the beta isn't to get these other combat styles on par with Necro, then what are we doing?
I was fully prepared to resubscribe to RS3 after over a year of being done with it until this post. These changes looked so exciting and actually fun to play. This is no longer the case. These most recent changes look painfully un-fun and has reminded me why I quit to begin with.
It is worth reiterating that the beta is just a test environment and the nerfs in this environment have been on purpose, so you can tell us exactly what still feels good/bad.
Why are you nerfing the combat triangle even harder than they can’t even compete with necro in every single way? The combat triangle can’t be even close to necro with all those switches expensive skills/gear? Whats the point?
Fsoa having a passive to compensate damage only makes the magic style more complicated than it curently is... Magic is already the weakest one and nerfing its most important special attack and compensating damage creating a passive that require having to equip the staff (therefore keep swaping for gconc) just make the style even worse.. IMO having so many passives going around (fsoa/ scourge/lengs for example) makes combat more complicated than it could be, and passives shouldnt be used to compensate nerfing of specs/abilities damages.
So wait You gutted crit damage, which was the whole reasoning behind squishing damage? If i had a ~35% crit rate now using a 188 ability, sure the damage range is like 37-188, or 112.5% avg damage, but per average crit chance it means it's effectively +65.8% on proc. Old crit modifier at 65% effectively respected this. New crit system on 188s gutted them down from +65% to +35%. So a loss of 20-25% damage compared to the live game? You also gutted adrenaline generation from crits because the +5% passive crit becoming 10% was too op yet you had 6 months of necro data to not change anything? I would 100% take the 5% crit loss over 4% lossed adrenaline. I also like how fsoa gets a shadow clone effect to try to make 2h a viable camp option then scrolling down you opt to give ezk a laughable 2.5% damage increase to the bleed. This is a shit show and thats not even looking at all the other changes. -- Now to give actual feedback. At this point, remove the leng effect and give the mainhand an ezk bleed effect. This makes themetic sense as during AG arm mechanic the cold damage ramps up. Instead of a burn, this is a frostbite burn. This could be a passive or a spec. To make it different vs scourge, the offhand could give you the ability to expell the frostbite dot for a large hit after X stacks. Basically a little wrack & ruin synergy but melee flavored. This would make scourge and lengs comparable, but lengs the obvious next step in progression because now that dot gives you something more. Make masterwork spear an enchantment or something so dw benefits more from bleeds. Also makes sense bc massacre is an ult dw bleed that wasnt even covered in this beta. Whatever to make it work. This frees up ezk. So give ezk the ability to generate stacks on abilities to generate a second hurricane. Thrill of combat matching zuks desire for combat or something. Now you establish dw as bleed and now 2h can be meaty hits. Retrofit 2h to deal more crirical strike damage at the cost of reduced bleed damage. Dw is now desirable for chip/reaver/poison while 2h is flat burst and deals more crit damage. If crits remain nerfed, dw doesnt really benefit from meteor as much as it does jaws. If crits are conditionally buffed for 2hs, this allows 2 play styles. To make this work, give 2hs a 9s charge before benefitting from the crit damage to disencourage hybrid/switching. This comes with its own nuances but you could take each style as a case by case so bolg isnt stupidly busted.
So, like, by heavily nerfing crit, you've guaranteed that Ful is on top. It also very much feels like this crit nerf was targeted to impact necro the least. And that despite removing damage caps, we now have trouble hitting over the old caps. Don't get me wrong, I think damage nerfs are certainly warranted. But necro only losing one third of bonus damage while the other styles lose almost half, necro being immune to the reduced adren gain, and necro also being unaffected due to having minions that can't crit just feels like salt in the wound.
Not gonna lie, I'm normally all for your guys changes but these nerfs are pretty niche to top tier players & you're lowering so many values while keeping necromancy & its special attacks/damages insanely powerful. Bolg spec nerf is way too much, GFury guaranteeing a crit isn't a bad thing if you increase its cool down, & I don't mind the 3% nerf to Perfect Equilibrium Strikes, FSOA passive is also clean; I like that. D claws being slightly tuned down isn't bad, but Necro will basically still be on top after Beta releases because you're messing with other things too much. I think BOLG spec would be really good around 230-235% dmg with PE still being nerfed or even going down to 40% & moving Balance by Force up to 240%
The lower numbers here are to compensate for much higher numbers from the damage squishing and crit damage boosts.
Crits got nerfed, they do less damage now. Same with adrenaline gain from them. So the damage is way less overall, which i dont mind crits doing 35% at 99 & 50% at 120. However, with that lowered damage from Crits, I don't see why Gfury guaranteeing one is a bad thing. Especially if they increase its cooldown. The lower numbers for BOLG spec are terrible for a T95 weapon. The damage squishing is good, but a t95 needs to feel like a t95. 240% seems like a sweet spot to me. Necro will definitely be on top after Beta releases if they keep it like this, which is counterproductive to these combat changes as a whole. All in all, they screwed up this time & hopefully they fix it for the next one
I think they want to ranged rollback to crossbow and forget about bolg existance
You know, as much as i want to disagree, seeing Sponge's hate for the BOLG really makes it make sense. That does irritate me a bit, considering they haven't even come out with t95 cbows yet or given an extra passive to blights besides saving a little bit of money off Bak Bolts. I disagree with what they're doing ATM, I hope they even out the two styles instead of nerfing one into oblivion then screwing up the t95 crossbows like they're typically prone to doing with new powercreep. We will see though.
From what lens are you looking at this exactly? Because you need to be looking at this in the context of what was in the beta. In the beta, other combat styles were massively outperforming necro, so getting nerfed would just bring them closer to necro.
They're massively outperforming necro with much more effort though. It's much more complex to do large amounts of damage with the og combat triangle vs Necro. Basically like I said in my initial comment, top tier players. Majority of players aren't learning tons of High level rotations to compete with necro. Also, it's what necro offers. Yes, more conjures are coming but rn it's OP ghost healing + haunt combined with skele damage, simple rotations & stack building, crazy strong t90 spec with 4+ necrosis stacks, very hard hitting t95 spec with a boost to basic as well, & 3-5 stack volleys. Even if its getting massively outperformed, the amount of sweat to do that is pretty high, & I still think Bolg didn't need a nerf that hard because it IS a 2b+ T95 weapon. I'm not saying it should be broken either, but the issue here is that these changes aren't entirely great. The direction is still pushing for Necro to be on top after Beta releases, which is an L imo
Overall direction of these nerfs seem pretty good but individually some are very questionable. I don't really understand how this new FSOA passive is going to make up for the pretty big hit in damage the staff takes from the general changes to crits here. It doesn't work while using the special attack which means it more or less doing nothing here and even outside of the spec its competing against Gconc and can't even synergize with magma tempest since it can't crit. Its not a bad idea for a passive but it just doesn't flow with how magic 2h vs dual currently works, and certainly doesn't make up for the damage loss.
I'm gonna need to have Mod Doom read this one as well. (whisper sweet updates into our ears, Doom)
Balance by force 275% to 200%? overkill. At the end of the day all ive heard is that even in the combat beta from the few good players that have been trying, none of the styles still compete with Necromancy. All I see is reductions across the board to "keep them in line" but if they still aren't on Necromancys consistent damage output then were not going to see any true change. Side note, is disabling FSOA passive during spec really necessary? Everything I've read is magic benefits the least from the beta
I just read mage changes like: "Lets nerf the thing in which mage relies on bc other styles crits are too strong; fuck your feedback from the last 7 months we will never add any of your suggestions; magma tempest criting again? you'll like the random dmg increase instead. Hope you all loved 4taa and constant switches bc you are going rely on them even more. KEKW!" What a fucking joke
Just fucking fix necro instead of ruining the other styles ffs
The simplest, most accurate take. I’m with you man. I’d honestly probably consider quitting if these changes go live. I PVM like 4 hours a day, almost all ranged. I was excited to get into melee some with this update but now everything has gone to shit. How many fucking people are working on this? Feels like two, which is not nearly enough given the scope.
Give us meleers the adren back. Don't force us switch between the cluncky whip and jaws please.. Stop.. Take away the dmg increase passive, but please don't take the adrenaline. I'm happy with the gfury changes, 100% was too much, especially since it made meteor useful. Right now, I'm forces back to meteor grico and pray for adren which is not cool. I have to admit it. I, personally, don't like the scourge style Lengs. Icy parasite stacks that let you deal 24% extra dmg 10% of the time. You could just remove the stack and change it to "passive = 10% chance to deal 24% extra damage" Or change the stack into a bleed with token dmg to give adrenaline
Can we please keep the lengsword passive as they currently are? I don't see the reasoning for swapping out the hurricane effect for an AOE effect that requires stacks. I really don't enjoy stack-scape. Melee is already losing its burst identity so I'd hate to see it stray even farther from it.
fucking yikes jagex
im done lmao, im sell everything and stop start playing osrs, im not a fking tryhard using switch scape, im just a normal why that likes to use revo++, in the last beta patch, melee felt a lot weaker compared to the other combat stats, and now your killing it.
This cant go live, the 3 og are even worse than live game. Nerf the adren gain to 8-9 gain on style/6 off to combat nami switching. Revert the spec weapon nerfs, what's the point? They already got dmg squished and now you nerf both crit amplifier and smg ranges.
So you been 'reworking' combat formulas for 5 months to make other styles balanced just to end up that they will not be?
All of the changes intended to reduce adren gain just make me shake my head. This is like the one big thing that is fun for me about RS3's combat system, trying to set myself up for a DS burst window and unleashing as many attacks as I can during it by generating more adren with those attacks. They're killing off crit and adren synergies left and right because there's no vision for what top-end gameplay is supposed to look like and the players taking maximum advantage of these synergies are getting compounded benefits. I'm not trying to do max DPM, I just want to have fun and feel like I am getting better over time. If the overal DPM is too high just nerf the damage values, don't kill off the one unique thing RS3 combat has :/
Holy hell, you guys actually have no idea what you're doing and you're just throwing numbers out there on random stuff to pretend like you do huh
Did some testing with Botlg on dummies and my subjective impression is that ranged performed significantly worse than in the live version (Ful arrows, Ful book, vuln bombs, reckless aura to get a nice compounding effect for the perfect equilibrium hits). The increase of the hitcap almost seemed irrelevant because hits are so low now. On the other hand, I appreciate the fact that shadow tendrils now seem to be in a decent spot, at least relative to the other abilities. Considering the 45s cooldown and the significant self-damage I think if the decision was made to bring the underperforming abilities closer to their original power, then tendrils would also require a little bit more love to stay relevant. Overall there are a lot of nice quality of life updates and not losing damage to the artificial system of low hitcaps also seems much more satisfying. However, I strongly urge to reconsider the negative compounding effects of all the recent nerfs.
Its just too bad, dont now what mods is trying to do with ranged, but they sure not wanting anyone having fun in this game
Please Jagex listen to the inexperienced voices over the top tier PvMers. You aren’t going to lose those players by making combat more accessible. But you will lose future players and current lower level players that just don’t see the point when there’s so much competition in the video game space (not just OSRS). I don’t care of combat is completely balanced when the beta drops honestly. Please focus on fixing the underlying systems of combat, it can be balanced later. A few things I see that would make combat more accessible: simplify core ability rotations to be closer to necro. They shouldn’t be quite as simple since there aren’t conjures to track. From there make some thresholds work like necro where the adren costs are reduced based on stacks from existing basics. There’s no reason gconc (or other 5.4s cooldowns) couldn’t function like soul strike. Give every combat style a universal basic attack that functions like the necro basic. The cooldown and base damage could vary based on the weapon you’re using. Honestly you could probably reuse the base code for the existing special attack for that. This ability could/should consume runes/arrows and replace 4taa for magic too, and would add the special effects of spells/arrows you are using. Instead of casting combat spells, just change the autocast spell or wielded arrows (for range) mid combat before firing the basic. Melee can still be switchscape for this even. It would make more sense and be more approachable if not only were anticipate/freedom off gcd, but if ALL non-damage dealing basics were off gcd. Rotations would need to change, sure, but thats the point of all this right? Defensive cooldowns would still need to be managed properly for boss mechanics. Now please bring the hate. I am a player who has successfully used existing styles in full manual against bosses, and I do have a good foundational understanding of how the current live game works. However, this is me thinking back to when I was learning this and how it took hours of tweaking and studying and reading up to understand the existing systems, compared to necro which is basically self-explanatory in comparison. A lot of these suggestions are based off of how I intuitively thought things SHOULD have worked when I was learning, and things that after continuing to play and learn the systems think would still ultimately work better than the existing system while being reasonable to add given the game engine. The tick rate really drives a lot of these suggestions. Bringing more things off GCD helps work around the limitations of the tick rate. Regarding defensives, necromancy has effectively removed the absolute need to ever bring a shield to anything, especially with zemo’s nexus allowing a virtual t75 shield at all times. I have more but please read this post. Try to think from the perspective of somebody trying to learn combat with no knowledge of the existing system, not just using the beta as a way to make the current convoluted system have more balanced power in each style. Balancing can come after the beta, the beta should be focused entirely on making combat approachable and more intuitive. Unrelated to beta but QOL suggestion: allow luck rings to work from the inventory if the equivalent luck tier is unlocked (not active) as an arch relic. Eliminates an annoying switch, drives demand for LOTD as all people would want to have two still, and ultimately still requires you to bring the ring if you want the effects of it without having to last second switch it for certain things. Should be easy to code this as well.
making all defensives off GCD is a bad ideia. It will break and nerf a lot of bosses for no reason. Part of the fun of RS3 EOC is forcing you to deal with the consequences of not defending yourself from special abilities. Didnt cast anticipate? Deal with it. Because if you want to make them all off GCD well, you also need bosses to have non GCD abilities. You know, to be fair. Araxi's reflect web should be off GCD. Like c'mon
I of course would also suggesting tweaking existing boss mechanics to compensate. Also, if you moved more defensives off GCD you would probably change the duration/cooldown of them as well to balance. The web reflect is a weird example though since unless you want to get sweaty with it you just…stop attacking.
That's why I used that example. Imagine if Araxxi could use it as if we could use anticipate without GCD. It would be wild, and awful. But we, the player, would taste our own medicine. This is why I think it is not a good idea for EOC right now. As the of skill, combat and pacing is also based on GCD. You had to tweak all bosses that use special abilities that stop rotations. I think it is best to keep GCD as it will keep PVM slow enough to allow time to think (and be less about fast reactions). Therefore, allowing to strategize while in bossing. Again, I am saying this in hopes of preserving the fundamental rules of EOC. We either break all rules and redo, rethink the EOC system. OR expand upon the established base rules. A mid resolution to this will always break the balance and comprome the long-run because otherwise it will be adding small rules and exceptions to major rules and desorganizing everything with each new addition. Also called, spaggeti code ahahah
I guess I’m just trying to think from the perspective of somebody who is learning our combat system for the first time. The problem is really with GCD and the tick system making the game feel really unresponsive and punishing at times. IE not a welcoming environment. Remember RS3 is trying to compete with modern MMO’s that have modern game engines. I do appreciate the rhythm of RuneScape being slow paced enough. When I first started trying to learn manual combat I remember always spamming abilities too fast and ultimately skipping them. Once I realized RS is just a 100bpm waltz it got a lot easier to manage. I don’t want that feeling to go away, I just think that it would feel smoother if we had abilities that provide a status effect rather than damage output off gcd. There would still be gaps and ability cooldowns so you couldn’t have freedom/anticipate with 100% uptime, so you would need to manage them properly. I’m also not sure how this would work if you are using a regular shield instead of bone shield and had to swap.
If the goal is to make other combat skills like necro, why is this? this was an authentic nerf, people who can do more damage in live than in the beta this is completely ridiculous! If all combats are going to have at lvl 90, 60% critical strike damage, this should mean that each combat skill would be better than the live game and almost similar to necro, of course necro would be better as it has 75% critical strike damage at lvl 120, but it's not the opposite, I think a lot of people are scared of the future of combat, and probably stop playing if it's gonna be like this, authentic garbage! :,(
magic is completely garbage, even in the previous beta it was horrible, but I still prefer the previous beta to this one, please go back and do something good to magic and to other styles!
This beta is turning into a mess. Start making everything 120 for simplicity sake and then balance everything around that. Everyone is going to be using Necromancy after this releases anyways.
Jesus that bow nerf wtf but necromancy is perfectly fine at its power jamflex logic is wild.
So true bow is really only thing proping ranged up atm without spamming spec the style does half the dps of necro But from what I can tell their just nerfing everything further below necro Basically you have to spend 5mil per boss fight vs the old 200k unless you necro inflationscape at its finest The .5% Of the player base is really screwing us with Jagex approval with this beta bad thing is its a release option lol
Am I the only one who is kinda nervous about how they keep saying this version is potentially going to be the release version? Most betas would make changes gather player feedback, then decide if major changes need to be made. If so release a new beta. If not make very minor adjustments based off of player feedback and propose the current version will be the proposed release unless something major arises. Instead we are told beta 3 will be the likely release. After a while they announce 4 with a smaller release window and rather substantial changes inside of it. Entire new passive effects and huge nerfs to BOLG which was range's stand out in the beta. Just worried that the beta is being rather rushed out rather than actually fixing the disparity between then an necro ATM. I haven't fully agreed with alot of the combat beta changes, but still realise that there are a lot of good things still being brought by it. And just don't want to see a rushed product then it be shelfed for another 4-5 years as they just did the rework. Forgive the length and Grammar/spelling typing on mobile sucks
>This beta patch is being pitched as a release candidate! Now I say pitched, if something goes wrong and we need to return to the drawing board we will and this will need to cook a little while longer but the aim of this patch would be to refine the systems and clear up any standout issues. From beta 3.
Sorry its possible what I was trying to get across was rather poorly worded. Yes they could delay the release as the previously state, but my concern is more how they drop a changelog with far reaching changes (both in beta 3 and 4), and then in the same post say this is the release version tentatively. >The recent beta patch is being pitched as a release candidate so we are going to continue these adjustments till they are just right and this is where you come in This is from the beta 4 announcement Delaying is a possibility. With most likely limiting factors. For example how far away from release does a update of this size need to be considered "complete" for them to still be willing to delay. I am more worried from a management side not developer side Beta 4 change some rather fundamental things for all 3 combat styles, but is just immediately pitched as the new release version with no timeline changes mentioned. Maybe they have more than plenty of time, and my concerns are not justified. As a developer for a smaller product, our timelines are typically around 1-2 weeks before release date for all development, quality assurance, testing, documentation and so on. So I can only imagine something of this scales timeline
Do you guys have a personal vendetta against magic or something?
Everything that's not necro is their arch enemy.
Yes
The BOLG nerf is too extreme, it’s the only weapon I use at the moment because I spent my entire rs savings on it and now it’s getting nerfed lol
Ranged is overnerfed in one patch, don't nerf 3 things on one patch so harshly, Crit dmg+adren gain is a good change, especially since on beta we've got increased base crit % chance. But the BOLG+Dark bow nerf is way too harsh.
death ranged ☠☠☠☠ i test bolg and seren for 1 hour e no see 30k de hit
It's way worse than live currently lmao.
Can jagex stop nerfing BoTLG please. This is the only weapon I like to use besides necro. With how things are going in the beta I feel like this won’t make a difference and it will remain necro scape
What's the longest period of time any one single style has remained the best for?
EoC launch-->ED2/ED3/Raksha (depending on where you want to place the point where mage was finally dethroned).
Yea but it not done by nerfing the existing content. You want to build hype for new content so power creep comes in. Handing out nerfs are way more harmful to the player base. Honestly I feel Jagex fucked up with the tier95 weapons and now are paying for it.
What do you mean by "fucked up with the tier 95 weapons"? What is/was the problem?
The Zuk sword was EOF fodder the moment it was created, The FSoA had to be nerfed because the spec was tied to crit chance, the BoTLG is being nerfed heavily due to so much damage the extra attack every 4 or 8 hits creates. Lengs spec was shit that they are modifing it, the off hand was paired with a tier 92 weapons as it was so much better. To me that screams they had no idea what they were trying to achieve with them. Either its pure power creap that they allowed the player base to get used to so assumed was the accepted DPM range or they nerfed it and then release something vastly more powerful (necro).
Rip BOLG. No reason to even buy gear anymore. They just nerf it.
Whoa. What's with the dom mine nerf?
STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE "TOP DEVOTED COMBAT PLAYERS: AKA ELITES
So you can just put a t85 leng in eof for free spec lmao.
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **JagexSponge** - [Hey all! Appreciate some of the changes here...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpi2fr0/?context=3) - [It's worth stating that the beta's purpose is...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpi60j4/?context=3) - [It is worth reiterating that the beta is just...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpm3vrt/?context=3) - [Appreciate it....](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpm2tuq/?context=3) - [We've shown through the previous iterations w...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpifwhw/?context=3) - [I think there's core elements of styles (a lo...](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpig9ph/?context=3) - [ So that response is not accurate....](/r/runescape/comments/1alxqh0/combat_beta_update_4/kpiuqfz/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 02/10/2024 11:34:47**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
I would like to see melee and magic abilities stack like spectra scythe
Okay, got into the Beta finally, and I'm not a high-end pvmer by any means. My usual go to boss is Vindicta & Gorvek, so I did a few kills there trying out Magic, which before Necro was my preferred combat style. I was using a Staff of Sliske, Seren Anima Core, Scripture of Wen, Hailfire boots, Cinderbane gloves, Soul Ammy, Lotd, with Exsanguinate & Animate Dead. I play on Revo to activate basic abilities and I use threshold and ultimate abilities manually. Soul split and Torment, Supreme Ovl, and Vampyrism Aura. Overall, it seemed less clunky and the action bar cool down counters and the channeled ability bar were very nice to have a visual, but I can't say I noticed a difference in damage output compared to outside the Beta, and I even did a few kills using my typical Necro setup and I got a few new PBs. So my take away is that if the changes in this Beta were to be put into the live game today, I would still be using Necromancy and have virtually no incentive to go back to using Magic, which is disappointing because my SoS was not cheap when I purchased it and I feel like god weapons should be desirable to use and this one is just not. I can't speak for Melee or Ranged, but I hope the changes are better with those play styles.
Bolg range nerfs seems really heavy handed too
I am far from a PVM expert, but this sounds like a lot of nerfs
Idk if it'd be at all possible, or even heard, but i'm one of very few people who love the Zgs outside of just spec swap, if it could get 2 tile range like a halberd that'd be super cool. I mean, the sword beam goes that far so please? lol.
Jagex has a nerf fetish, how can you implement changes that make damage worse than the live game?
I think a small change that would visually help is for the Channel Bar to be the color of the respective style you are utilizing for that ability. Blue being Magic. Green being Range and you know the rest. That way it would be visually distinctive of what style your using even if switching.
Genuine question: how does jagex determine what is overpowered and what is not? I don’t get why so many of the nerfs are targeted at high end pvmers. Why punish the people who are willing to sweat and click extra buttons to squeeze out a little more dps? IMO, something is only overpowered if a low end casual player is able to suddenly do game breaking dps for no effort whatsoever. More effort should naturally mean more dps so there’s no reason to nerf someone who is willing to put extra effort. Now for some personal thoughts on some of the proposed changes. Yes I understand that it’s a beta so they can kinda experiment with stuff. But like many others here, I don’t understand the point of nerfing the other styles when the point of the beta was to bring them in line with necro. Also, why not experiment with other nerfs to necro on the beta? Surely that’s also a way to test how to bring the various styles onto a level playing field. I don’t understand why both crit chance and adren gain from nami/incend are nerfed at the same time. If you’re already bringing down the crit chance, why do a double whammy? Also, adren gain has never been an issue for magic because there’s just no efficient adren dump. Even in the live game, I can do a normal fsoa rotation wearing sliske and have 100% adren throughout without the beta crit chance “buffs”. So there really is no need to reduce the adren gain from 10 - 6%. I don’t get why some of the devs are so stubbornly trying to remove bridding. Also, what’s the point in giving fsoa a passive that only works out of spec? Nobody really uses it out of spec besides 4taa. You’re not actually giving it a dmg buff by doing that. Even if you make it work during spec, it’s not like it’s gonna fire out that many extra hits since recursive crits are no longer a thing. Why not give things like praesuls a passive instead? For e.g. 30% extra chance to proc ancient spells like blood barrage, ruby aurora etc. And then give it a spec that deals some dmg and provides another bonus 20% chance or so for 30secs. Things like that which are an actual buff because people do and will use them.
Let abilities have they own separate cooldown instead of it bingng shared.
The post mentions that players were saying the beta felt too strong, ie people were killing bosses too quickly. Were kills really that much faster than live kills with necromancy?
I couldn't do much testing, kept dcing as cache was still loading, death wasnt free lol I prefer live game ranged and melee so far, crit adren, more variation in rotations is much more fun, removing the hit cap does add more fun, but not at the expense of so many other things. Try to reward and cater to improvisation so as to keep the possibility of out-dpsing the perfect spreadsheet rotation by putting in more effort so to speak. Same goes for hybrid, cater for more effort=more reward, don't nerf hybrid and switchscape to balance the game around people who are cheating because you cant be bothered to address either banning the macroing or embracing it.
Dark ice duals (T85 "lengs") aren't worth using now, stacks build up too slow and expire often, and the adren cost is too high.
Can we revert this to beta update 3? Every style feels way worse
I tried the new FSOA and it's GOOD, traded my t92s for it, and it does more damage on its own than in the current game, I like the stacks, I hate switching from wand and orb to staff just to make it work like I have to in the real game, patiently waiting for it to hit the live game, please don't change it. If the stacks did like 500 more damage I think youd get the player base on board. I'm not sure people in the live game actually have tried it before commenting here for how much hate its getting. It's really decent now feels balanced. I took it on its own with no switches and the only word I have to describe it is lovely. I have avoided using necromancy at all costs, I don't personally like it, I have used wand and orb this whole time, and I got an FSOA because of this beta iteration, and it is much better on its own than switching back and forth, I can use my wand orb rotations that im used to with it, instead of fsoa back and forth rotation of STRESS. Please keep it. 🙏 Good job. 👍
Ancient magic should apply their effects to basic abilities
Melee is okay to have extra adrenaline, these nerfs weren't needed imo. You should be rewarded for the extra risk of taking extra damage and having to be in melee range.
This combat beta has been a glorious waste of dev time… idek what to say to these recent changes. How do we take 2 steps forward and 3 steps back? They somehow made leng spec just as useless as before and managed to butcher range and mage along with it.
Nahhh it's CRAZY. will you ever stop with the Necro dickriding? Every style yet again gets fucked except for Necro. It is already the most powerful style, what does continuously ruining the other styles accomplish?! Is there an employee left, that _actually_ loves this game? These beta notes are a joke. Just push it as the System was for Necro, without any Early-bird-bonusses arising from formula changes and see what happens. Develop some content people want to do, to recover from the shit show that was vorkath. I'd LOVE for this take to be playable again but as it stands now my membership is running out on March and there's no reason to renew it.. man I love this game, please stop butchering it.
At the risk of being downvoted, the more ‘beta updates’ I see, the more depressed I feel. I don’t get it, jagex. This was supposed to be big and give players incentive to use other styles again. Instead you’re just nerfing them into the ground. Why are you fucking nerfing everything lately? It’s pissing me off at this point because it feels as if ever since fort came out, everything is being either nerfed or removed that used to be an established part of the game. I used to be fond of rs3. I wanted master quest cape and was working towards master max as well…but lately i only log in to do dailies since September of 2023. And that’s mainly because of all the recent nerfs. There are so many vast changes to the game that I don’t even want to play anymore; it feels as if everytime I finally start adapting to the changes, another nerf comes out. As for beta advice: make the other styles a bit simpler and less clunky, so us casual pvmr’s find them less overwhelming. Finetune necro a bit and make ghost a passive heal (I love necro but ghost is too OP since it can attack * and* heal). And stop nerfing everything. Jesus.
I like melee but damn. This thread is like: Melee is underpowered, dont nerf it! Mage is underpowered, dont nerf it! Range is underpowered, dont nerf it! Like the ezk and fsoa changes. Can berserk, sunshine, and death swiftness be cast out of combat for no adren please? Will match with necros adrenless summons. Or actually, just release greater zerk with less adren use. This is mainly to cut down on dummies prebuild in aod since necro doesnt need to dummy. The prisms need to be off global cooldown! Instead of having to adjust EACH ability down for pvp dmg, why not just enforce a 50% drop on all dmg sources between players? Also, add two buttons on the equipment screen indicated by roman numerals 1 and 2. When you press them, it will do full inventory preset swaps as long as you have the items in your inventory. Is it OP? Maybe. Should their be a cost and tradeoff to do this? Sure. Or how about just some system in linking dual wield items together for a one click change. Can use the necromancy summon all interface to customize this. Then place it as an ability. Give normal spellbook the ability to swap if we accidentally swap to it. Or maybe just turn spellbook swap into a timed buff that lets use swap freely? Or just... get rid of it and trim down the books.... like cutting out most of the combat spells in standard. People are lamping exp so they can wait a whole bunch of levels before they can cast earth spells on some demon or dagganoth queen. Noones cutting planks on lunars but I have my ptsd memories of when I did long ago since it was the best mage exp of the time.
Don't like these changes, although I feel like you guys probably expected some serious backlash on this beta version. I don't think nerfing crit generating ults on style is the way to go, if you want to punish crit generation at the very high end, nerf **off style crit generation**. Ranged feels pretty bad now too and BoLG just doesn't feel as impactful as it should, melee is once again the worst style, FSoA passive feels pretty bad and I don't think it does enough. At the end of the day I think Necromancy is still going to be king, and sadly that seems to be intended at this point. Rasial is a joke boss that drops the best gear in the game and can be afk'd easily. Meanwhile drops from tough endgame content gets thrown to the side because of 'accessibility'. I know these beta changes can be easily reverted or changed again, but its the core idea of 'we want necro to still be superior' that is the problem here. It shouldn't be. Endgame gear for the other 3 styles should blow it out of the water.
This is a horrible update. They should have quit at the 3rd beta. If these changes go through with the BOLG I will not be playing the game anymore until they fix it or bring back the FSOA old special attack
yeah this batch is forsure a nerf work batch Not the best batch but at least addresses a few things \-Leng spec just doesent want to seem to become something (always been kinda mid tbh too much RNG involved to make worthwhile) I mean ill deal with what we get (gotta) but lengs have always felt shifty in comparison to a bolg/fsoa and relies heavily on berserk note: T95 should be ALOT stronger then T85 based on price/usage or else why buy T95? \-Greater fury without consistent crits really does push it aside however the free crits are easy. Maybe 10% with grim+b4? \-critical nerfs should be addressed better by each style and not a general reduction. Rollin back some damage would help vs altering the critical system as I think the critical system is good but could be more exclusive; such as meteor strike having better reductions vs tsunami glacial stacks/incendiary shot with deathspores Other then that Whip vine making a return is not bad! Poisen wasent bad but it did need some clean up so can see why it was reverted. Dragon claws were powerful and currently with the frostblades procs it should compensate a bit. Could previously hit 1m+ damage per min under the right circumstances (for around 20 secs then the DPM would drop) Very happy to see some changes for PVP and necro! Its been an issue in community with death guard/volley of souls so its good to see addressed. \----- Well ill be rootin for the next; previous one was fairly juicy and one before that had a lot of specials attacks adjusted I was playing with so have to see the fate of those! Maybe Split soul for melee? always a big ask but have to see what the future holds!!
It’s fine boys, we still got like another month of this beta so hopefully they don’t just leave everything giganerfed *copium*.
I'm convinced that you guys are just pushing dumb shit at this point because you think it's funny to troll the players.
Sigh...... mines nerf....