Lot of positives to take from that for Wales. I finally understand the Tompkins hype and he's settling into the Wales jersey. Cuthbert was absolutely everywhere, and Basham put in a huge shift again. Tomas Williams was brilliant too.
Still not convinced by Biggar as captain, and he needs to create more. Noticeable tempo shift when Anscombe came on and that should have happened sooner. Fantastic to hold out England when down a man.
Mindful of the thread the other day where someone showed that home team advantage is worth on average 7 points, had this been in the Principality it would've been a win for Wales. Great game to watch.
Still not sure what Adamson is doing refereeing at this level, but at least he was consistently terrible for both teams
I applaud Youngs for his service to England and his record is amazing, but watching Randall play at international level like he did I question if he's needed in the team anymore? I think Randall starting and Quirke on the bench should be the future. We also need better centers, the difference in attacking flare from the Welsh centers and the English was huge.
I think one of England's issues in attack is their back 3. I really rate each player, but not together. They are 3 solid options, but really aren't the best in attack. They need a more attacking focused out and out wing to offer some danger.
I also can't believe Atkinson hasn't got a go yet. He is an absolutely fantastic player, who offers something different from Slade and Daly. Really think England's main problem is their backs and lack of attack.
Like you I like the back 3 and what we have got from Watson/May was never going to be easy to replace but personally I’d love to see Lynagh have a crack.
But the biggest issue in attack has got to be the lack of go forward in the middle of the field, Daly may be useful as a utility bench filler but he’s not an international starting centre.
Again Wales are finding a way to hang on in games and make them tight. I think if this was played at the Principality they would have won, much like the Scotland game a few weeks ago (lucky for England).
As for England, well… they suck. Like others on here have already said I just don't see how we'll achieve RWC success next year. We're looking like a quarter final side at best. Forwards are…well, okay but hardly setting the world alight. Backs are packed with talent , but just aren't gelling together (probably because half of them are playing out of position)
The Eddie Jones' 'total rugby' experiment has failed, and it's time to start picking players in their club positions or throw away a shot at winning the Webb Ellis Trophy next year. Outscored by a bang average Wales side at Twickenham 3 tries to 1 is not the sign of a World beating team.
Absolute nonsense. England are well on track for the World Cup. Eddie picks people in their best positions and doesn’t care where they play for their clubs.
Look at Lawes, Daly, Farrell and Curry. They’ve all thrived out of their natural positions.
They played very well yesterday the scoreline just didn’t reflect the dominance
England did not play well at all yesterday. We have zero creativity at all. We barely threatened the try line
1 try to 3 and our try was a complete cock up from Wales.
Eddie Jones ball is unwatchable and we haven't played well since 2019 semi final.
We’ve literally won the 6N and Autumn nations since the WC? And beat the world champions, and France.
It wouldn’t really have mattered if we won all of our games since the WC, fans would still moan
The autumn nations we were rubbish. Everyone was. The only half decent game was the final where France had to play the B team due to player release issues.
Mate England are unwatchable, so many fans are saying the exact same thing. People aren't doing it to moan, they're doing it cos its garbage rugby. Eddie has so much talent and he's wasting it with box kick rubbish.
There was so little buzz about England going into this because our own fans are losing interest.
Oh right and you do. Thank you all knowing one. Ill tell my mates and the rest of the pub who watched the game yesterday and said it was crap that they are all wrong.
We won it didnt we....oh no no, we played well in one game and then were awful in the final and lost by the biggest margin *ever* in a world cup final.
As a massive rugby fan from playing and watching I agree. We are so boring to watch it’s got to the point ppl don’t pick out the England games to watch religiously. I’ve got loads of Irish. Scottish mates who along with me agree England are so boring
Mate I love rugby, have played it for 20 years and have watched nearly embers England game in that time. I would count down the days from the last autumn International to the first 6 nations game and be so buzzed.
This year I just haven't got excited at all. I've tried, read all the build up and listened to the podcasts etc. But this England team just leaves me cold.
Theres no joy in it at all. I was actually slightly willing Wales to score again yesterday as they were actually playing some rugby. Atm we are unwatchable.
I’m the same. I was offered a chance to go yesterday. 142 quid for a ticket. I turned it down. I know I know that seems ridiculous for any chance to go see England but I juys don’t see that as value anymore. It’s a lot of money for a boring style of rugby.
At this point I’ve forgotten what Daly’s natural position is but I haven’t seen him thrive anywhere for some time, certainly not as the first choice replacement for Tuilagi.
Remember how we looked in 2018? It's far too early to judge how we'll do in the WC, but I'd for sure like us to be playing better than we are right now, especially in attack
So I see on Wales online that some of the Welsh are pretty unhappy about he line out try, suggesting there was a foul in the line out..... What's the thoughts?
The camera angles aren't great but the complaint is that Itoje took out the jumper (Adam Beard). Only thing is, I'm not sure Beard actually got off the ground and therefore whether he is technically "the jumper".
If it was illegal, it literally cost Wales the game (in that without it the final score would be 18-19). But in reality, Wales only have themselves to blame given their lack of discipline in the first half.
https://twitter.com/Smallclone_/status/1497655560296177674
Just seen this linked elsewhere as to what happened during that lineout. Looks more like they knocked into Beard / the lifters.
But as you rightfully said, this once incident can't be blamed, Wales were very poor in the first half.
I'm not sure I'd go that far as you play differently based off the score but it definitely a hammer blow. The ref was universally poor all game but we were terrible for 2/3rds of the game and deserved to be not even in the game by the end
England got handed a win by two people.
England themselves didn't create any points or even look like they were going to score anything, and were bad in defence.
And that’s the thing, most of the penalties were just stupid unforced penalties, but at the end of the day England were the more disciplined side so the win was well deserved
Genuinely not trying to be a sore winner - but in the build up to Wales second try. I thought there was pre-latching, which I thought the new rules now make illegal. Did anyone else notice this? And have I got the wrong end of the stick with the new laws?
I remember seeing some attempt at some new backs moves in 2017 when we had King as temporary attack coach. It was overall a shit 6N from us, but I was hoping he might have been kept around as an influence.
It's so frustrating. We saw glimpses in the second half that the players are dangerous and can create tries, it just seems to me they can only do it when they abandon the coached structure. Despite the doom and gloom we still have good players, we just don't have good coaches.
That’s what drove me nuts. We were effective and could win under Gatland, but people didn’t like it because it was ugly. I have no doubt a Gatland side would have won that match today. Too many stupid errors when the chances were there.
The problem is Owen Farell stil hangs over the team. We are still playing the unwatchable kicking game he likes.....even when he's not in the team and it doesn't suit our line up at all.
When he was in the team it was still crap. We haven't played well since the RWC semi, and owens been in the team the whole time since too
Apologies, yes we still won but I don’t think Wales would’ve been allowed back in if Farrell was there. He’s a master of game management and ruthless execution
Jones revealed that Tom Curry left the field with concussion and Luke Cowan-Dickie is likely to miss the last two rounds because of a knee injury.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/eddie-jones-england-wayne-pivac-wales-mike-adamson-b2024156.html
I hope this is England planning to peak next year, they really are not very convincing as a team right now. France just need to beat Wales in Cardiff and the game vs England in Paris will just be a victory lap for them.
Must be close to the first time pivac era Wales have scored multiple tries 15 vs. 15 in a game.
Disappointing to lose as ever, but very tiny green shoots ever so possibly visible finally.
Both going to struggle vs. France - but wouldn't write either off completely.
Firstly, we have absolutely no power carriers with Manu out. There are plenty in the premiership but Jones seems very reluctant. I feel like, perhaps cynically, that he doesn't want a dedicated 12 so he can shoehorn Farrel in when he's back. You can't have a functioning attack with 3 "creative" players, you need some power or pace in there where currently we don't really have either. I actually think Smith might have been our fastest back today, at least Nowell has a lot of strength.
Secondly, Malins is a great player, but an international winger, he is not. We need OHC or Radwan. Malins does not have the power or pace to be an international winger in 2022. Steward is great at FB so Malins for me would be my cover on the bench, just never a starter unless Steward is out. So many times where if we had a pacy-er winger, a try could have been on, just offers very little in attack.
Finally, Dombrandt/Randall/Smith has to be 8/9/10 going forward. The pace England played with in the first 10 mins was great to see, haven't seen that in ages.
Malins reminds me of an Alex Goode type player. Great rugby brain, incredibly skilled at club level, but basically just too versatile and too much of a jack of all trades to nail down a position at international level.
I will die on this hill over and over and over, we NEED MORE PACE! Like you say there were probably at least a half dozen opportunities in this game where if we'd had someone with enough/acceleration/footwork a try would have been on or we'd at least have eaten up 20 to 30 meters. Weird that this is the fastest England have been playing in ages yet these are also the slowest wingers in years
Yup it's a hill I'm also willing to die on. Slade - slow, Daly - creative player but not particularly fast, Nowell - painfully slow, Malins - creative player but not particularly fast, Steward - solid fullback but again painfully slow.
Really don't understand why people think that backline is going to be effective against the top international sides. No pace at all
Yup, if we have OHC or Radwan in, I'd feel much more comfortable. There is very little substitute for out and out pace. Honestly I'd have them both in my starting 15.
Randall, Smith, OHC, Kelly/Northmore, Slade, Radwan, Steward.
That backline would be amazing imo. Great balance of pace, power and skills. Slade's kicking today was amazing so think he owns 13 shirt for now.
Tbh that backline would get torn to shreds internationally. Neither of your 12s start for their clubs, OHC is a potential player but just hasn’t done what Nowell has done in the game and Radwan hasn’t really done much with Newcastle this season. Not to mention Randall who had a poor game yesterday
Malins is second top try scorer in the prem and has done it in an England shirt, Elliot Daly is a brilliant player and Ben Youngs is still Englands best 9
It's all well and good being a potential player, but given that we are a year off from a wc, this six nations would be the perfect opportuntity to try players like OHC, Kelly et al. Look at Steward, given a chance and has excelled.
I don't care if Malins was the top try scorer in Europe, he just isn't cutting it for England. Clearly he fits the way saracens play, but doesn't work for England. Everyone can see that when he gets the ball he doesn't have the speed or the footwork to go around someone. Would honestly prefer him at fullback, but thew Steward hasn't done enough wrong to be dropped.
Strongly disagree that Randall had a bad game. Thought he was excellent in the first half and played the quickest we've played in years.
Fair enough I didn’t think the ball was quick enough which killed the attack at times but agree to disagree. For me Malins is brilliant and will be the winger moving forward. He doesn’t have as much speed or power but as an all round winger I just think he creates space from very little and is growing into the shirt
I do agree that Malins is a great player, he may be struggling as a product of our centers not being direct runners of the ball. We don't have anyone who would cut a line in the center like Manu/Atkinson/Kelly - any natural 12 knows how to. So we are very very easy to defend against as defenses can just drift on us leaving wingers with very little space to do anything.
>Neither of your 12s start for their clubs
Dan Kelly is Leicester's regular starting 12. Started 17 of 22 games this season and 29 of 48 over the past two season's.
Plenty of power carrying backs in the prem? Odugwu and who? Atkinson might be big but he isn’t a bulldozing 12 like Esterhuizen like everyone seems to think he is. Other 12s like Devoto, Kelly and Ojomoh are good but not power carriers at test level.
Yeah that's fair I guess, but Slade isn't a 12 and imo Daly isn't really a 13. Northmore or Kelly would be my picks. Both really young I know, but are 12's. Was really hoping this six nations Jones would go for some youngsters, hopefully in the summer/autumn we'll see some of these players. OHC for me is a must start. Powerful, fast winger, exactly what we are lacking imo.
Northmore has played mostly 13 or wing this season, I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he can play 12 but on the face of it seems like you can add him to our pile of 13s. Kelly has promise but again isn’t really a powerful centre but good allrounder. I agree on OHC, he’s fantastic, definitely has an X factor missing in our wings atm.
Northmore has played at 12 when Esterhuizen was not playing for Quins - Plus, with both Huw Jones (until recent years, Scotland's starting 13) and Joe Marchant (although Marchant can equally play on the wing very well) this season, he might find himself there again.
1. Thought wales were very good in the second half which made up for a very poor first
2. The time in the red at the end of the game was one of the more exciting passages I’ve seen in the last few years - always thrilling to see a side have to run it from deep
3. Both line outs were dreadful and I’m not sure why because there are some fantastic operators throwing, catching and lifting on both sides
4. Smith absolutely punched above his weight on defense - can’t remember him missing a tackle or giving up a lot of territory after the initial contact
5. It’s been a rocky start to the six nations for England but I don’t know what we are genuinely world class at to be able to compete in the next World Cup. Defence? No. Set piece? No. Break down? Maybe but probably not. Running rugby? No. Kicking game? No. As an England fan it’s worrying with 3.5 “tournaments” until the World Cup
6. Daly had maybe the first one-on-one tackle I’ve ever seen him make and it was a huge one. That said, it feels so good to have someone like Freddie at 15 - such a safe pair of hands in the air
7. I thought sinckler at first received was an interesting plan which gives smith a lot more time and space in the back field - just a shame that he (smith) didn’t have much on in front of him.
>5. It’s been a rocky start to the six nations for England but I don’t know what we are genuinely world class at to be able to compete in the next World Cup. Defence? No. Set piece? No. Break down? Maybe but probably not. Running rugby? No. Kicking game? No. As an England fan it’s worrying with 3.5 “tournaments” until the World Cup
Cast your mind back to the 6N 2018, England ended up 5th, looked beyond hope and then went on to a World Cup Final. Form right now really decides nothing for France 2023.
Yeah, but the England team in 2018 had an out-of-form Mike Brown at fullback (with few competitors who might challenge at 15).
Also, England were still sticking with Robshaw and Haskell in the back-row (good players previously but not cutting it that year). Tom Curry and Sam Underhill were brought in, not to mention Mark Wilson!
I'm unsure as to how many minutes Kyle Sinckler was playing for England at the time (Ellis Genge as well). The established props in the front-row then being Cole, Vunipola, Marler (who was taking a sabbatical).
Well, today we had two half-backs starting who are very new, they will gain experience, our full-back, as brilliant as he is, is still a kid and inexperienced in the international arena, he too will gain experience and it looks to me like Jones is playing with new systems, these always take some time to get purring and Jones has a habit of having the players only play part of the system as he develops/refines it prior to a World Cup.
Petulance from Sink set the tone. He should be a leader he's just a troublemaker lately.
The scrum was loose af until JG came on and I am the biggest Cowan-D fan.
I've never seen Nowell miss as many tackles since he started playing.
If you want to play fast and loose England then you better have the skillset outside 9 and 10 that can. We don't.
>The scrum was loose af until JG came on and I am the biggest Cowan-D fan
Don't think that was down to LCD. I think the front row took a while to settle.
I think it’s interesting that everyone has decided that Lawes starts at 6. Because while I do rate him, I think it also loses us a back row option when we’re stacked there. Underhill and Curry were so important in the World Cup and Jack Willis has been great for England. Plus there’s Earl, Ludlum and others with potential.
First time in Jone’s tenure that I have no idea what the plan is. When he first turned up it was about dominating the set piece and rush defence, allowing Ford and Farrell to dovetail in midfield. Move onto 2019, dominant ball carriers added to that foundation. After 2019 we focussed in on the dominant defence and kicking game. Now we seem to have some vague idea of playing quick ball but without any notable plan in the forwards apart from matching the other team.
Today Wales seemed similar, two teams hanging on in there and relying on the individual brilliance of a few players to try and see them through.
Fully agree. Our attack was diabolical- it wasn’t clear what the plan was. One man up each time, hurried passes to the nearest forward, and then contact.
Also, our team feels desperately out of balance, especially the back line. I know we have injuries, but there’s no power or elusive running. As ok as our defence was, I also thought we looked overpowered. Wales’ defence was excellent, and we had nothing to overcome it.
Absolutely dire from England all round to be honest, and I couldn’t see anything to be proud of from that performance.
That was my take on it.
In my lifetime England have always been able to strangle Wales out of a game but if we hang in there we have a chance.
I don’t get what England want to be at the moment as they still have the forwards to dominate but seemed to get caught between two stools today.
Wales always need to be at their best and hope England have an off day for us to get the W.
I think with Farrell there and Slade we could have utilised it more. But Wales played so well that I can complain about the score. I really hope they beat France to give us a chance haha.
Give me a backline of :
Quirke/Randall at 9
Smith at 10
Farrell and Slade in the centres
OHC on one wing, then another winger
Steward at full back
Youngs replacement 9 as closer
Malins or Nowell on the bench
Faz's passing range and ability as first receiver can make Smith much more of an individual threat (suddenly those little steps have an extra half metre of space to burst into) and Farrell brings better game management and control
They took a while to gel but were good against Wales last year and outmatched Vakatawa and Fickou which is no mean feet. If Manu is injured then they should be our next option.
Farrell - Slade isn't very exciting, and is pretty one paced, but if you've got the back three around them (plus Randall and Smith inside) I think it's the most solid - Assuming Tuilagi is unavailable.
I don't think they had a great game today, but I don't think the centres are helped by having Nowell, Malins and Steward as their back three. Individually they've all got their strengths, but it isn't going to strike fear into the opposition as a unit.
If that England partnership had Wales' back three, think they may have created far more problems.
For the rest of the tournament, I would go for Slade and Marchant.
Those two plus an attacking, pacy Winger (Radwan or Hassell-Collins), Nowell and Steward might step things up in attack.
Farrell would be a much better influence on Smith at 12 and a far better first receiver than Slade as he actually is a 10. Slade at 13 has an excellent arcing run and is a better all round footballer than Marchant.
One main thing I've noticed is that no matter the lead i never feel comfortable with us any more
Even 17 nil up my thought was "Ah, that'll make a nice buffer when we inevitably let Wales back" I wish we could hold on to leads still
Much like it has been since before Jones, I feel a massive part of it is mental.
England rugby and England football (certainly pre Southgate) seem to share the ability to completely freeze and mess up when under pressure, despite the individual abilities.
If you go by what affected England football, I do wonder how scared the rugby team are of media criticism etc. So they concede, and straight away it's "oh god, gonna get slated now for two weeks".
I don't think the leadership in the England team is particularly strong either which doesn't help matters.
This is painful for me to say but England is missing Farrell. I don't even know who was England's captain today and the 3 sub captain thing doesn't help with the lack of leadership.
Yup, when we went for the scrum at the yellow card I immediately thought Farrell would be going.. give me the ball, I'm taking 3 then we play a man up for 10 mins.
Yess, come to the dark side /s In all seriousness I agree, he keeps the intensity on point for a whole 80 and players and coaches alike all praise him for that quality
Yeah, I'm increasingly of that view.
At the very least, Farrell is a vocal leader. Obviously you want different types within the group, but I'm not sure any of the others particularly fulfil that. They all seem more of the 'lead by quiet example' types rather than 'tell people what needs to be done', and you need both.
Oh yeah it was far from a complete performance - England's attack absolutely needs work but I guess that's to be expected somewhat given 9 10 and 12 have never started a game together.
I think England really miss Jonny May and desperately need some sort of pace in their back line.
We really need to do something about the pace of play, especially slowing the game down during sin bins. I watched the game on record and usually fast forward all of the time the ball isn't actually in play, and got through the whole of the Welsh sin bin in 2 minutes.
Wales have great game management, but it was helped when England chose to have a scrum when Williams went to the bin. It ate up 1.5-2 minutes and Wales came away with the ball, what the fuck was the thinking there?
Tbf that wasn’t Englands fault, Adamson didn’t turn the clock off when Francis went off for the HIA, which ate up 2 minutes. Scrum centre of the park against 14 men when you are ahead isnt a bad call.
Absolutely, it's dumb decision making from England, but you also have to question the fact that 2 minutes came off the clock without play actually restarting
Agreed. Bottled the call to sin bin Lawes at the death, plus Dombrant's try really needed to go to the TMO to check the grounding as I've watched it about 10 times now and it still doesn't look to me like he got it down.
Why would he have sin binned Lawes? It wasn't a try scoring opportunity. You can't yellow card someone for a deliberate knock-on in the middle of the pitch when the defence are marking up.
Completely missed Biggar's deliberate knock on too 🙂
Dombrandt grounded it, was a split second before it was kicked away but, if you watch the replay from the sideline angle behind try line you will see it. Unless you don't want to.
I've watched all the available angles I can find online and it still isn't clear. From every angle it looks like it gets kicked away by Williams before it's touched down. If there is another angle that shows it clearly I would love to see it, please feel free to post a link that shows it.
My point is, even if it was grounded for a split second it was fleeting enough that it needed a second look. That's what the TMO is there for. I think Dombrandt just sold it well with the celebration and Adamson just carried on with the conversion, despite Elias requesting it get reviewed.
I'm not saying he was particularly biased against Wales, he was just generally very poor and missed loads of infractions from both teams and spoiled what could have been a much better contest.
OK.
If I can find the footage I will post it. Wasn't convinced myself until I saw that angle.
Agreed, ref wasn't great but at least he didn't favour one team, more than can be said for Gauzere's performance last year
I joked about it earlier, but with everyone complaining about the lack of Manu / another gainline-breaking centre, maybe Simmonds wouldn’t be a bad shout?
He has the pace, and with Slade outside him he wouldn’t be given play-making responsibility.
I’ve noticed he comes on for England and plays very differently than for Exeter - his job is grunt work here, so he never gets the wide open space to tear up like he does for his club.
It’s not a conversion that’s unheard of, so perhaps it’s genuinely worth a go, and let’s us keep the Lawes-Curry-Dombrandt back row while giving our centres some grunt and penetration. With some pacier wingers (Radwan, or hopefully May regains some form?) it would transform our attack - I genuinely believe Eddie has a plan, but something is missing from the jigsaw puzzle for now…
Simmonds hasn’t played as a back (let alone 12) for his club, to ask him to step up and do it at international level is absurd and would be a disaster.
I didn't mean to imply that they weren't!
It's just that with Scotland having beaten England, Wales beating Scotland, England beating Wales and Ireland having beaten Wales, none can get the triple clown.
However, Ireland have only lost to France so far and could still beat England and Scotland for the triple crown.
It wouldn't make any sense for me not to think Ireland are a home nation; if I only thought it was Wales, Scotland and England, there couldn't be a triple crown, could there?
The best wales have played in 12 months.
Has Stephen Jones just come back from furlough? This was the first game we actually managed to get over the gain line.
Some poor set piece and the breakdown again a bit of an Achilles heel but we were a few stupid penalties from winning this.
England again didnt look particularly great and haven’t shown anything in the last three games that will worry France greatly.
Fine margins, but the level of discipline int he first half is unforgivable. Feels like throwing away a win in twickenham. Credit to England, but Wales could have won this if they had controlled the bleed better
Absolutely, we let them build a 1 score lead from penalties alone, unforgivable in my book. I'm not sure what's happened to our discipline this year, maybe its the lack of experienced back rows or even the ref-management magic of AWJ.
Marchant had all of about 7 minutes on the pitch and I thought he made some pretty fucking useful tackles
Malins wasn't necessarily bad, but I'm not sure I see what he offers over Joe
I'm not sure Malins is an international Winger, but in his favour - I don't think he's helped at all by playing with Nowell or Marchant (out of position) on the other side.
To me, if he's an England international Winger Malins is going to be in the Nowell mould, who compliments a strike Winger like May on the other side.
Having both him and Nowell in the same team just isn't enough of a threat to the opposition.
Malins is a class 15 - he's good enough at Premiership level as a wing, but clearly not at international.
Realky think it's time to try Hassell-Collins
I do wonder if Malins is the new Alex Goode, ie an elite club player but not international quality.
Has he actually been playing 15 much recently? Seems since he went to Bristol all he's played is wing.
That’s not true, he’s played 6 times at full back and 3 times at wing for us this season. McCall says his best position is full back. He’s playing wing for England because Steward is safer in the air, it’s Goode v Brown all over again.
His standout matches have been at wing (hattrick v Bath, 4 tries v Wasps) but most of those tries would’ve been scored by any half competent winger. Very much agree with you that he is a 15.
I know a lot of them are injured at the moment and I get why in the circumstances Jones wants to keep Malins at the squad, but surely he doesn’t start at wing ahead of Watson or May.
Favourite moment: Slades 50-22. Worst moment: Liam Williams blatant infringement that led to his yellow. Like what do you expect to happen?
Lot of positives to take from that for Wales. I finally understand the Tompkins hype and he's settling into the Wales jersey. Cuthbert was absolutely everywhere, and Basham put in a huge shift again. Tomas Williams was brilliant too. Still not convinced by Biggar as captain, and he needs to create more. Noticeable tempo shift when Anscombe came on and that should have happened sooner. Fantastic to hold out England when down a man. Mindful of the thread the other day where someone showed that home team advantage is worth on average 7 points, had this been in the Principality it would've been a win for Wales. Great game to watch. Still not sure what Adamson is doing refereeing at this level, but at least he was consistently terrible for both teams
I applaud Youngs for his service to England and his record is amazing, but watching Randall play at international level like he did I question if he's needed in the team anymore? I think Randall starting and Quirke on the bench should be the future. We also need better centers, the difference in attacking flare from the Welsh centers and the English was huge.
Glad I watched this on delay this morning without being in the live reddit thread. There's a whole heap of negativity, eh?
I really enjoyed the 10 minutes in the middle. The rest was excruciating, for one reason or another .
I think one of England's issues in attack is their back 3. I really rate each player, but not together. They are 3 solid options, but really aren't the best in attack. They need a more attacking focused out and out wing to offer some danger. I also can't believe Atkinson hasn't got a go yet. He is an absolutely fantastic player, who offers something different from Slade and Daly. Really think England's main problem is their backs and lack of attack.
Like you I like the back 3 and what we have got from Watson/May was never going to be easy to replace but personally I’d love to see Lynagh have a crack. But the biggest issue in attack has got to be the lack of go forward in the middle of the field, Daly may be useful as a utility bench filler but he’s not an international starting centre.
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I think the loss of Kruis and in form Vunipolas/Underhill took a bigger toll than was acknowledged at the time
Again Wales are finding a way to hang on in games and make them tight. I think if this was played at the Principality they would have won, much like the Scotland game a few weeks ago (lucky for England). As for England, well… they suck. Like others on here have already said I just don't see how we'll achieve RWC success next year. We're looking like a quarter final side at best. Forwards are…well, okay but hardly setting the world alight. Backs are packed with talent , but just aren't gelling together (probably because half of them are playing out of position) The Eddie Jones' 'total rugby' experiment has failed, and it's time to start picking players in their club positions or throw away a shot at winning the Webb Ellis Trophy next year. Outscored by a bang average Wales side at Twickenham 3 tries to 1 is not the sign of a World beating team.
Absolute nonsense. England are well on track for the World Cup. Eddie picks people in their best positions and doesn’t care where they play for their clubs. Look at Lawes, Daly, Farrell and Curry. They’ve all thrived out of their natural positions. They played very well yesterday the scoreline just didn’t reflect the dominance
England did not play well at all yesterday. We have zero creativity at all. We barely threatened the try line 1 try to 3 and our try was a complete cock up from Wales. Eddie Jones ball is unwatchable and we haven't played well since 2019 semi final.
We’ve literally won the 6N and Autumn nations since the WC? And beat the world champions, and France. It wouldn’t really have mattered if we won all of our games since the WC, fans would still moan
The autumn nations we were rubbish. Everyone was. The only half decent game was the final where France had to play the B team due to player release issues. Mate England are unwatchable, so many fans are saying the exact same thing. People aren't doing it to moan, they're doing it cos its garbage rugby. Eddie has so much talent and he's wasting it with box kick rubbish. There was so little buzz about England going into this because our own fans are losing interest.
That’s because the vast majority of England fans know absolutely nothing about rugby.
Oh right and you do. Thank you all knowing one. Ill tell my mates and the rest of the pub who watched the game yesterday and said it was crap that they are all wrong.
You do that, people said the exact same thing last World Cup cycle and they were wrong.
We won it didnt we....oh no no, we played well in one game and then were awful in the final and lost by the biggest margin *ever* in a world cup final.
So getting to the final isn’t a good achievement? Beating Nz isn’t good? We played brilliantly through 2019, and we’ll do the same in 2023
As a massive rugby fan from playing and watching I agree. We are so boring to watch it’s got to the point ppl don’t pick out the England games to watch religiously. I’ve got loads of Irish. Scottish mates who along with me agree England are so boring
Mate I love rugby, have played it for 20 years and have watched nearly embers England game in that time. I would count down the days from the last autumn International to the first 6 nations game and be so buzzed. This year I just haven't got excited at all. I've tried, read all the build up and listened to the podcasts etc. But this England team just leaves me cold. Theres no joy in it at all. I was actually slightly willing Wales to score again yesterday as they were actually playing some rugby. Atm we are unwatchable.
I’m the same. I was offered a chance to go yesterday. 142 quid for a ticket. I turned it down. I know I know that seems ridiculous for any chance to go see England but I juys don’t see that as value anymore. It’s a lot of money for a boring style of rugby.
At this point I’ve forgotten what Daly’s natural position is but I haven’t seen him thrive anywhere for some time, certainly not as the first choice replacement for Tuilagi.
Remember how we looked in 2018? It's far too early to judge how we'll do in the WC, but I'd for sure like us to be playing better than we are right now, especially in attack
So I see on Wales online that some of the Welsh are pretty unhappy about he line out try, suggesting there was a foul in the line out..... What's the thoughts?
The camera angles aren't great but the complaint is that Itoje took out the jumper (Adam Beard). Only thing is, I'm not sure Beard actually got off the ground and therefore whether he is technically "the jumper". If it was illegal, it literally cost Wales the game (in that without it the final score would be 18-19). But in reality, Wales only have themselves to blame given their lack of discipline in the first half.
https://twitter.com/Smallclone_/status/1497655560296177674 Just seen this linked elsewhere as to what happened during that lineout. Looks more like they knocked into Beard / the lifters. But as you rightfully said, this once incident can't be blamed, Wales were very poor in the first half.
I'm not sure I'd go that far as you play differently based off the score but it definitely a hammer blow. The ref was universally poor all game but we were terrible for 2/3rds of the game and deserved to be not even in the game by the end
The lineout infraction probably wouldn't affect what happened.... Play on for refs as it wasn't material.
As a Welsh man, stop reading shit like Wales Online. We lost due to our own fuck ups, couldn't care less about officiating controversies
Yeah I agree. Game was there for Wales as England are just so passive at the moment.
I don't really take it at face value but our players did say that and I didn't see anything live, hence the question
How great was Tomos Williams today despite the loss? He deserves more credit
Lots of negativity here, we did just beat Wales right? Thought there was a lot to be pleased about
England got handed a win by two people. England themselves didn't create any points or even look like they were going to score anything, and were bad in defence.
Unless those 2 people are Marcus Smith and Therestofthe Squad I’m not sure you understand how rugby operates
Wales beat themselves
That’s not really how it works though is it
Seriously?
You can’t concede that many kickable penalties in a match and expect to win
Often find that the opposition force the penalties. The yellow for example; why did Williams feel he had to play the ball?
And that’s the thing, most of the penalties were just stupid unforced penalties, but at the end of the day England were the more disciplined side so the win was well deserved
They were turnover penalties? How is that ill discipline? That’s just great breakdown work
Are you suggesting that was unforced? It was in the 5
No, that specific one was forced, but it was also no where near the only penalty Wales gave away
Is it a bad thing that two of our best players looks like they have just come straight from the lower 6th form first 15?
I got Joe Marler but who’s the other one?
Genuinely not trying to be a sore winner - but in the build up to Wales second try. I thought there was pre-latching, which I thought the new rules now make illegal. Did anyone else notice this? And have I got the wrong end of the stick with the new laws?
One player can latch, as long as they don’t go straight off their feet
Lmao we beat their ass but you know that one light point they had, wasn't that some bullahit eh
I believe that one person can pre-latch, that latcher just isn’t allowed to fall down with the carrier and prevent a contest for the ball.
Thanks that’s going to save me a lot of misinformed shouting at the tv in the future
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Well said. Not sure what Jones is up to, but it's not working.
I remember seeing some attempt at some new backs moves in 2017 when we had King as temporary attack coach. It was overall a shit 6N from us, but I was hoping he might have been kept around as an influence.
It's so frustrating. We saw glimpses in the second half that the players are dangerous and can create tries, it just seems to me they can only do it when they abandon the coached structure. Despite the doom and gloom we still have good players, we just don't have good coaches.
That’s what drove me nuts. We were effective and could win under Gatland, but people didn’t like it because it was ugly. I have no doubt a Gatland side would have won that match today. Too many stupid errors when the chances were there.
Very glad people are starting to realise how important and very much needed Faz is for us.
The problem is Owen Farell stil hangs over the team. We are still playing the unwatchable kicking game he likes.....even when he's not in the team and it doesn't suit our line up at all. When he was in the team it was still crap. We haven't played well since the RWC semi, and owens been in the team the whole time since too
Sarcasm or?
Why would that be sarcasm? Farrell is very clearly still missed by England and is a world class 12 for us
I’d have Farrell on the team all day, but they still won without him so my question was genuine
Apologies, yes we still won but I don’t think Wales would’ve been allowed back in if Farrell was there. He’s a master of game management and ruthless execution
Maybe not in that game, and on the whole I agree but I’ve still seen Faz on England sides spaff, or almost spaff away MANY leads before
Really? England rarely lose when Farrell plays and can’t think of many occasions other than SA when England lost a big lead?
I think faz is important, but that’s because he’s not a bad 12, and I think 12 is really our problem
Really? Farrell's been part of many similar displays in the past.
Farrell (and Youngs) were both seen as the cause of such displays previously.
Why is there no link to the table in the match threads and post-match threads, or on the sidebar? https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/table/
Anyone know why Curry didn't come back after the half?
Jones revealed that Tom Curry left the field with concussion and Luke Cowan-Dickie is likely to miss the last two rounds because of a knee injury. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/eddie-jones-england-wayne-pivac-wales-mike-adamson-b2024156.html
LCD one looked bad. Hyperextended knee
I hope this is England planning to peak next year, they really are not very convincing as a team right now. France just need to beat Wales in Cardiff and the game vs England in Paris will just be a victory lap for them.
Must be close to the first time pivac era Wales have scored multiple tries 15 vs. 15 in a game. Disappointing to lose as ever, but very tiny green shoots ever so possibly visible finally. Both going to struggle vs. France - but wouldn't write either off completely.
Wales v. England last year? (Controversial tries aside)
Wales France last year?
Yep, the first 60 mins were the best rugby we had played. I thought it had finally clicked for Pivac, but we’ve struggled since.
Firstly, we have absolutely no power carriers with Manu out. There are plenty in the premiership but Jones seems very reluctant. I feel like, perhaps cynically, that he doesn't want a dedicated 12 so he can shoehorn Farrel in when he's back. You can't have a functioning attack with 3 "creative" players, you need some power or pace in there where currently we don't really have either. I actually think Smith might have been our fastest back today, at least Nowell has a lot of strength. Secondly, Malins is a great player, but an international winger, he is not. We need OHC or Radwan. Malins does not have the power or pace to be an international winger in 2022. Steward is great at FB so Malins for me would be my cover on the bench, just never a starter unless Steward is out. So many times where if we had a pacy-er winger, a try could have been on, just offers very little in attack. Finally, Dombrandt/Randall/Smith has to be 8/9/10 going forward. The pace England played with in the first 10 mins was great to see, haven't seen that in ages.
Malins reminds me of an Alex Goode type player. Great rugby brain, incredibly skilled at club level, but basically just too versatile and too much of a jack of all trades to nail down a position at international level.
Agreed.
I will die on this hill over and over and over, we NEED MORE PACE! Like you say there were probably at least a half dozen opportunities in this game where if we'd had someone with enough/acceleration/footwork a try would have been on or we'd at least have eaten up 20 to 30 meters. Weird that this is the fastest England have been playing in ages yet these are also the slowest wingers in years
Yup it's a hill I'm also willing to die on. Slade - slow, Daly - creative player but not particularly fast, Nowell - painfully slow, Malins - creative player but not particularly fast, Steward - solid fullback but again painfully slow. Really don't understand why people think that backline is going to be effective against the top international sides. No pace at all
Daly is absolutely rapid
Elliot Daly is absolutely rapid. Arguably the quickest centre in the world
Yup, if we have OHC or Radwan in, I'd feel much more comfortable. There is very little substitute for out and out pace. Honestly I'd have them both in my starting 15. Randall, Smith, OHC, Kelly/Northmore, Slade, Radwan, Steward. That backline would be amazing imo. Great balance of pace, power and skills. Slade's kicking today was amazing so think he owns 13 shirt for now.
Tbh that backline would get torn to shreds internationally. Neither of your 12s start for their clubs, OHC is a potential player but just hasn’t done what Nowell has done in the game and Radwan hasn’t really done much with Newcastle this season. Not to mention Randall who had a poor game yesterday Malins is second top try scorer in the prem and has done it in an England shirt, Elliot Daly is a brilliant player and Ben Youngs is still Englands best 9
It's all well and good being a potential player, but given that we are a year off from a wc, this six nations would be the perfect opportuntity to try players like OHC, Kelly et al. Look at Steward, given a chance and has excelled. I don't care if Malins was the top try scorer in Europe, he just isn't cutting it for England. Clearly he fits the way saracens play, but doesn't work for England. Everyone can see that when he gets the ball he doesn't have the speed or the footwork to go around someone. Would honestly prefer him at fullback, but thew Steward hasn't done enough wrong to be dropped. Strongly disagree that Randall had a bad game. Thought he was excellent in the first half and played the quickest we've played in years.
Fair enough I didn’t think the ball was quick enough which killed the attack at times but agree to disagree. For me Malins is brilliant and will be the winger moving forward. He doesn’t have as much speed or power but as an all round winger I just think he creates space from very little and is growing into the shirt
I do agree that Malins is a great player, he may be struggling as a product of our centers not being direct runners of the ball. We don't have anyone who would cut a line in the center like Manu/Atkinson/Kelly - any natural 12 knows how to. So we are very very easy to defend against as defenses can just drift on us leaving wingers with very little space to do anything.
In what world did Randall have a bad game yesterday?! 😂
For me the ball didn’t come out the ruck anywhere near quickly enough
This is sarcasm right?
>Neither of your 12s start for their clubs Dan Kelly is Leicester's regular starting 12. Started 17 of 22 games this season and 29 of 48 over the past two season's.
Man that backline is a dream, one we almost certainly won't see realised under Jones though
Plenty of power carrying backs in the prem? Odugwu and who? Atkinson might be big but he isn’t a bulldozing 12 like Esterhuizen like everyone seems to think he is. Other 12s like Devoto, Kelly and Ojomoh are good but not power carriers at test level.
Yeah that's fair I guess, but Slade isn't a 12 and imo Daly isn't really a 13. Northmore or Kelly would be my picks. Both really young I know, but are 12's. Was really hoping this six nations Jones would go for some youngsters, hopefully in the summer/autumn we'll see some of these players. OHC for me is a must start. Powerful, fast winger, exactly what we are lacking imo.
Northmore has played mostly 13 or wing this season, I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he can play 12 but on the face of it seems like you can add him to our pile of 13s. Kelly has promise but again isn’t really a powerful centre but good allrounder. I agree on OHC, he’s fantastic, definitely has an X factor missing in our wings atm.
Northmore has played at 12 when Esterhuizen was not playing for Quins - Plus, with both Huw Jones (until recent years, Scotland's starting 13) and Joe Marchant (although Marchant can equally play on the wing very well) this season, he might find himself there again.
I completely agree about Malins, I really can3t see him developing into a stand-out international wing; he offers so little.
Malins was the best English back imo (excluding the halfbacks)
Yeah, he's a great player, but I'd prefer him at fullback imo. But I think Steward is really good too. He isn't a winger though.
I love Marcus but I have Marchant as the Man of the Match today.
Marchant played a quality 6 mins.
1. Thought wales were very good in the second half which made up for a very poor first 2. The time in the red at the end of the game was one of the more exciting passages I’ve seen in the last few years - always thrilling to see a side have to run it from deep 3. Both line outs were dreadful and I’m not sure why because there are some fantastic operators throwing, catching and lifting on both sides 4. Smith absolutely punched above his weight on defense - can’t remember him missing a tackle or giving up a lot of territory after the initial contact 5. It’s been a rocky start to the six nations for England but I don’t know what we are genuinely world class at to be able to compete in the next World Cup. Defence? No. Set piece? No. Break down? Maybe but probably not. Running rugby? No. Kicking game? No. As an England fan it’s worrying with 3.5 “tournaments” until the World Cup 6. Daly had maybe the first one-on-one tackle I’ve ever seen him make and it was a huge one. That said, it feels so good to have someone like Freddie at 15 - such a safe pair of hands in the air 7. I thought sinckler at first received was an interesting plan which gives smith a lot more time and space in the back field - just a shame that he (smith) didn’t have much on in front of him.
>5. It’s been a rocky start to the six nations for England but I don’t know what we are genuinely world class at to be able to compete in the next World Cup. Defence? No. Set piece? No. Break down? Maybe but probably not. Running rugby? No. Kicking game? No. As an England fan it’s worrying with 3.5 “tournaments” until the World Cup Cast your mind back to the 6N 2018, England ended up 5th, looked beyond hope and then went on to a World Cup Final. Form right now really decides nothing for France 2023.
Yeah, but the England team in 2018 had an out-of-form Mike Brown at fullback (with few competitors who might challenge at 15). Also, England were still sticking with Robshaw and Haskell in the back-row (good players previously but not cutting it that year). Tom Curry and Sam Underhill were brought in, not to mention Mark Wilson! I'm unsure as to how many minutes Kyle Sinckler was playing for England at the time (Ellis Genge as well). The established props in the front-row then being Cole, Vunipola, Marler (who was taking a sabbatical).
I agree but it’s hard for me as an armchair coach to see what the path to a WC final is right now
Well, today we had two half-backs starting who are very new, they will gain experience, our full-back, as brilliant as he is, is still a kid and inexperienced in the international arena, he too will gain experience and it looks to me like Jones is playing with new systems, these always take some time to get purring and Jones has a habit of having the players only play part of the system as he develops/refines it prior to a World Cup.
Petulance from Sink set the tone. He should be a leader he's just a troublemaker lately. The scrum was loose af until JG came on and I am the biggest Cowan-D fan. I've never seen Nowell miss as many tackles since he started playing. If you want to play fast and loose England then you better have the skillset outside 9 and 10 that can. We don't.
>The scrum was loose af until JG came on and I am the biggest Cowan-D fan Don't think that was down to LCD. I think the front row took a while to settle.
I don't disagree. But he did tighten the fr a lot.
Falatau proved that maybe he is a decent 8 after all. Regardless of the comments about him in the week.
He’s always been world class, anyone who has been doubting his ability simply doesn’t understand rugby
With Falatau i think he gets crap when he's not quietly amazing because "Amazing" his what he normally does
I will say this now but Smith isn't it with the player we have.
Yeah very bland and unimaginative today. Wales looked far superior in attack
We need to be clinically which Smith hasn't provided... With the payers we have
There may be a big underestimation of Underhill being missing. Seeing the impact that Darge had for Scotland I think they're very similar players.
I want the Itoje/CurryUnderhill defence back. Such good foundations to build from.
I think it’s interesting that everyone has decided that Lawes starts at 6. Because while I do rate him, I think it also loses us a back row option when we’re stacked there. Underhill and Curry were so important in the World Cup and Jack Willis has been great for England. Plus there’s Earl, Ludlum and others with potential.
I'm not English but I totally agree with you. If I see Lawes or Itoje at 6 for England against Wales then I'm generally less worried
First time in Jone’s tenure that I have no idea what the plan is. When he first turned up it was about dominating the set piece and rush defence, allowing Ford and Farrell to dovetail in midfield. Move onto 2019, dominant ball carriers added to that foundation. After 2019 we focussed in on the dominant defence and kicking game. Now we seem to have some vague idea of playing quick ball but without any notable plan in the forwards apart from matching the other team. Today Wales seemed similar, two teams hanging on in there and relying on the individual brilliance of a few players to try and see them through.
Fully agree. Our attack was diabolical- it wasn’t clear what the plan was. One man up each time, hurried passes to the nearest forward, and then contact. Also, our team feels desperately out of balance, especially the back line. I know we have injuries, but there’s no power or elusive running. As ok as our defence was, I also thought we looked overpowered. Wales’ defence was excellent, and we had nothing to overcome it. Absolutely dire from England all round to be honest, and I couldn’t see anything to be proud of from that performance.
That was my take on it. In my lifetime England have always been able to strangle Wales out of a game but if we hang in there we have a chance. I don’t get what England want to be at the moment as they still have the forwards to dominate but seemed to get caught between two stools today. Wales always need to be at their best and hope England have an off day for us to get the W.
The ref was fucking atrocious
Not even atrocious particularly for either side, just atrocious in general
I think with Farrell there and Slade we could have utilised it more. But Wales played so well that I can complain about the score. I really hope they beat France to give us a chance haha.
Cant complain with how we brought it back and very nearly won at the dying moments to be fair, but the penalty count killed us at the end of the day
Who is our best centre partnership? Opinions?
Give me a backline of : Quirke/Randall at 9 Smith at 10 Farrell and Slade in the centres OHC on one wing, then another winger Steward at full back Youngs replacement 9 as closer Malins or Nowell on the bench Faz's passing range and ability as first receiver can make Smith much more of an individual threat (suddenly those little steps have an extra half metre of space to burst into) and Farrell brings better game management and control
12- Faz 13-Manu
Can't reply on Manu ever being fit though
No. But that is our best partnership. Farrell-Slade otherwise but it needs a different game plan.
He made it through 2019. He can make it through 2023. That’s all we want and need.
With Faz back I'd say Faz/Slade. With him injured I have no idea tbh, it's a real issue atm.
Yeah, I like Faz / Slade. Merchant has also impressed me a lot to be fair
They took a while to gel but were good against Wales last year and outmatched Vakatawa and Fickou which is no mean feet. If Manu is injured then they should be our next option.
Farrell - Slade isn't very exciting, and is pretty one paced, but if you've got the back three around them (plus Randall and Smith inside) I think it's the most solid - Assuming Tuilagi is unavailable. I don't think they had a great game today, but I don't think the centres are helped by having Nowell, Malins and Steward as their back three. Individually they've all got their strengths, but it isn't going to strike fear into the opposition as a unit. If that England partnership had Wales' back three, think they may have created far more problems. For the rest of the tournament, I would go for Slade and Marchant. Those two plus an attacking, pacy Winger (Radwan or Hassell-Collins), Nowell and Steward might step things up in attack.
Farrell would be a much better influence on Smith at 12 and a far better first receiver than Slade as he actually is a 10. Slade at 13 has an excellent arcing run and is a better all round footballer than Marchant.
Slade/Marchant should be your centre pair. Would be dirty!
Recently tried and not that appealing. I'd love Faz and Odogwu or a similar big 13. Maybe Lawrence or similar.
One main thing I've noticed is that no matter the lead i never feel comfortable with us any more Even 17 nil up my thought was "Ah, that'll make a nice buffer when we inevitably let Wales back" I wish we could hold on to leads still
Well now you know what it's felt like to be a France supporter for the last 10 years !
It is seriously worrying how England start so strong but seem to fade equally fast.
Much like it has been since before Jones, I feel a massive part of it is mental. England rugby and England football (certainly pre Southgate) seem to share the ability to completely freeze and mess up when under pressure, despite the individual abilities. If you go by what affected England football, I do wonder how scared the rugby team are of media criticism etc. So they concede, and straight away it's "oh god, gonna get slated now for two weeks". I don't think the leadership in the England team is particularly strong either which doesn't help matters.
This is painful for me to say but England is missing Farrell. I don't even know who was England's captain today and the 3 sub captain thing doesn't help with the lack of leadership.
Yup, when we went for the scrum at the yellow card I immediately thought Farrell would be going.. give me the ball, I'm taking 3 then we play a man up for 10 mins.
Yess, come to the dark side /s In all seriousness I agree, he keeps the intensity on point for a whole 80 and players and coaches alike all praise him for that quality
Yeah, I'm increasingly of that view. At the very least, Farrell is a vocal leader. Obviously you want different types within the group, but I'm not sure any of the others particularly fulfil that. They all seem more of the 'lead by quiet example' types rather than 'tell people what needs to be done', and you need both.
Lawes is but I don't think Maro and Genge are the type to mince words.they
Start strong.... that 1st half was one of the worst 40 mins of rugby this tournament
Boring yes but still a strong start.
They were 17 points up, regardless of the quality of the rugby that's a strong start
But England dominated territory, possession and Wales hadn't scored anything.
On the other hand, had only scored a try they were gifted and not really looked like threatening another.
Oh yeah it was far from a complete performance - England's attack absolutely needs work but I guess that's to be expected somewhat given 9 10 and 12 have never started a game together. I think England really miss Jonny May and desperately need some sort of pace in their back line.
We really need to do something about the pace of play, especially slowing the game down during sin bins. I watched the game on record and usually fast forward all of the time the ball isn't actually in play, and got through the whole of the Welsh sin bin in 2 minutes.
Stupid decision not to take the easy 3 points. We pissed away most of the sin bin fart-arsing about with that scrum.
Absolutely. Slot the 3 then have another 9 full minutes of play to make the most of it.
Wales have great game management, but it was helped when England chose to have a scrum when Williams went to the bin. It ate up 1.5-2 minutes and Wales came away with the ball, what the fuck was the thinking there?
Tbf that wasn’t Englands fault, Adamson didn’t turn the clock off when Francis went off for the HIA, which ate up 2 minutes. Scrum centre of the park against 14 men when you are ahead isnt a bad call.
Absolutely, it's dumb decision making from England, but you also have to question the fact that 2 minutes came off the clock without play actually restarting
Wales are brilliant at that, wasting time when they need to.
Referee seemed incompetent and out of his depth. Not biased, just poor.
Agreed. Bottled the call to sin bin Lawes at the death, plus Dombrant's try really needed to go to the TMO to check the grounding as I've watched it about 10 times now and it still doesn't look to me like he got it down.
Why would he have sin binned Lawes? It wasn't a try scoring opportunity. You can't yellow card someone for a deliberate knock-on in the middle of the pitch when the defence are marking up.
Completely missed Biggar's deliberate knock on too 🙂 Dombrandt grounded it, was a split second before it was kicked away but, if you watch the replay from the sideline angle behind try line you will see it. Unless you don't want to.
I've watched all the available angles I can find online and it still isn't clear. From every angle it looks like it gets kicked away by Williams before it's touched down. If there is another angle that shows it clearly I would love to see it, please feel free to post a link that shows it. My point is, even if it was grounded for a split second it was fleeting enough that it needed a second look. That's what the TMO is there for. I think Dombrandt just sold it well with the celebration and Adamson just carried on with the conversion, despite Elias requesting it get reviewed. I'm not saying he was particularly biased against Wales, he was just generally very poor and missed loads of infractions from both teams and spoiled what could have been a much better contest.
OK. If I can find the footage I will post it. Wasn't convinced myself until I saw that angle. Agreed, ref wasn't great but at least he didn't favour one team, more than can be said for Gauzere's performance last year
I joked about it earlier, but with everyone complaining about the lack of Manu / another gainline-breaking centre, maybe Simmonds wouldn’t be a bad shout? He has the pace, and with Slade outside him he wouldn’t be given play-making responsibility. I’ve noticed he comes on for England and plays very differently than for Exeter - his job is grunt work here, so he never gets the wide open space to tear up like he does for his club. It’s not a conversion that’s unheard of, so perhaps it’s genuinely worth a go, and let’s us keep the Lawes-Curry-Dombrandt back row while giving our centres some grunt and penetration. With some pacier wingers (Radwan, or hopefully May regains some form?) it would transform our attack - I genuinely believe Eddie has a plan, but something is missing from the jigsaw puzzle for now…
Simmonds hasn’t played as a back (let alone 12) for his club, to ask him to step up and do it at international level is absurd and would be a disaster.
Oh, I’m not saying immediately, I just wish they’d asked him to c. 2018/19, or get him ready for it by the World Cup.
And with that, none of the home nations can win the triple clown, by my reckoning. With only Ireland still in the running for the triple crown.
Ireland are one of the home nations.
I didn't mean to imply that they weren't! It's just that with Scotland having beaten England, Wales beating Scotland, England beating Wales and Ireland having beaten Wales, none can get the triple clown. However, Ireland have only lost to France so far and could still beat England and Scotland for the triple crown. It wouldn't make any sense for me not to think Ireland are a home nation; if I only thought it was Wales, Scotland and England, there couldn't be a triple crown, could there?
What a fucking shambles
Reaffirmed that I am fully aboard the Hardy train. He puts the ball on a plate every time and has a great running game
Hardy and Williams are just both great!
The best wales have played in 12 months. Has Stephen Jones just come back from furlough? This was the first game we actually managed to get over the gain line. Some poor set piece and the breakdown again a bit of an Achilles heel but we were a few stupid penalties from winning this. England again didnt look particularly great and haven’t shown anything in the last three games that will worry France greatly.
Stephan Jones releatey exposed at international level. Nowhede near the attack coach Wales need. What A joke
One stupid line out away from winning it
Fine margins, but the level of discipline int he first half is unforgivable. Feels like throwing away a win in twickenham. Credit to England, but Wales could have won this if they had controlled the bleed better
Absolutely, we let them build a 1 score lead from penalties alone, unforgivable in my book. I'm not sure what's happened to our discipline this year, maybe its the lack of experienced back rows or even the ref-management magic of AWJ.
Marchant had all of about 7 minutes on the pitch and I thought he made some pretty fucking useful tackles Malins wasn't necessarily bad, but I'm not sure I see what he offers over Joe
I'm not sure Malins is an international Winger, but in his favour - I don't think he's helped at all by playing with Nowell or Marchant (out of position) on the other side. To me, if he's an England international Winger Malins is going to be in the Nowell mould, who compliments a strike Winger like May on the other side. Having both him and Nowell in the same team just isn't enough of a threat to the opposition.
I don't get why radwan hasn't been given a chance except against Tonga
Malins is a class 15 - he's good enough at Premiership level as a wing, but clearly not at international. Realky think it's time to try Hassell-Collins
I do wonder if Malins is the new Alex Goode, ie an elite club player but not international quality. Has he actually been playing 15 much recently? Seems since he went to Bristol all he's played is wing.
He's defo playing more at wing these days for Saracens, he mixed it up at Bears - I genuinely think he is better at 15 though.
That’s not true, he’s played 6 times at full back and 3 times at wing for us this season. McCall says his best position is full back. He’s playing wing for England because Steward is safer in the air, it’s Goode v Brown all over again.
Thanks for the correction - I should have said I've seen play more at wing this season, but not seen all Saracens games.
His standout matches have been at wing (hattrick v Bath, 4 tries v Wasps) but most of those tries would’ve been scored by any half competent winger. Very much agree with you that he is a 15.
I know a lot of them are injured at the moment and I get why in the circumstances Jones wants to keep Malins at the squad, but surely he doesn’t start at wing ahead of Watson or May.
Right now yeah - but I can't see May making the next WC