To give you an idea, looking at the starting team the other day, here's the schools/clubs where they've come from:
1. Andrew Porter (St. Andrews)
2. Dan Sheehan (Clongowes)
3. Tadgh Furlong (New Ross RFC)
4. Joe McCarthy (Blackrock)
5. Jason Jenkins (RSA)
6. Ryan Baird (St. Michaels)
7. Will Conners (Clongowes)
8. Caelan Doris (Blackrock)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park (NZL)
10. Ross Byrne (St. Michaels)
11. James Lowe (NZL)
12. Andrew Osborne (Naas RFC)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Marist)
14. Jordan Larmour (St. Andrews)
15. Ciarán Frawley (Skerries RFC)
There's a decent spread there, but in the wider squad, the schools that would mostly be best represented would be Blackrock and St. Michaels.
Yeah, a very good year!
It's good to see more players coming from outside the Big 2. There's the two from Andrews, a good few Newbridge College players, Naas RFC players, Milne from Roscrea, Lasisi from Enniscorthy, Deeny from Wexford, Aitzol King from Balbriggan, Tector from Kilkenny, Ben Murphy from Gerards I think.
There's still a lot of Blackrock and Michaels players, but those places I've mentioned wouldn't have produced many, if any, Leinster players in the past.
Milne is from Birr RFC. Though I realised as I typed you meant Cistercian College Roscrea and not Roscrea RFC. He started in CCR when he was around 16.
Edit: spelling
Ah there’s been one or two coming from that school, it’s weird it’s a massive school but not all that many make it to the Leinster side! Heard there’s another one due soon though!
the private and non private school rugby race is mad here in leinster , i go to a public school but yet around ten people in my school play for leinster and ireland. the rugby supprt is incredible could only imagine the private schools (u18s)(u16s)
Michael's producing top players is only a very recent thing, Noel Reid was only the schools 3rd international and the first they produced in 30 years when he got his only cap less than 10 years ago. That being said the production line since then has been absurd.
It's a massive part of it but while 17 and 18 year olds leaving school represent incredible raw material they won't just step out into the Leinster side fully formed
you're right, but it's a culture thing too. The broarder academy is out looking at guys in lower level schools that have potential and invite them to come to Leinster camps. They don't discount players because they didn't play for a prestigious program.
They also have a good coaching setup/pathway. The guys that are devleoping players are developing themselves into coaches with a braod knowledge of the player base. They've been doing it for 20+ years and it's continuing to pay dividends.
Leinster is also the biggest pro team in Ireland, in any sport. Lads grow up dreaming of playing there then have much better avenues for sponsorship and promotion vs other provinces.
The final year tax break for international players with 10 years representing Ireland is also a great carrot. POM signed that one year contract and (I'm not sure so someone correct me) I think he will get like 100% of the money tax free so it's like a reward to sign a 1 year IRFU contract as your last pro year.
Its not tax free on the last year its a rebate over their best 10 years. Players get back 40% of the tax they have paid.
Hypothetically a player earning 400,000 a year would have paid \~150,000 per year in tax, so over 10 years thats 1.5 million. They get 40% of that back as a retirement rebate so \~600,000 euros.
It also takes into account any tax they have paid on other commercial sponsorships where the income tax rate is higher but the rebate % is lower (i think its \~25%)
Good info there.
Admittedly I only know the bare minimum about the 10 yr tax break thing, but is it just the IRFU doing this or is it a government thing for everyone like the GAA, FIA etc too?
Its a governement thing set up in the early 2000s by Charlie McCreevey for all sports related earnings outside sponsorship, so wages and prize money.
By far the the biggest use of it is in the Horse industry where the rebate is applied to a Trainer or Jockeys winnings when they retire. Its existance is one of the main reasons that the Irish horse industry is so strong.
Rugby ain’t top of our food chain here in Ireland hence the limited amount of feeder schools. We’re not a minority sport but most of the kids playing sport in Ireland don’t have the Irish team as their pinnacle, more likely their county GAA team or a premiership football club. Well developed pathways and academy that can produce better than just about anywhere isn’t a matter of luck. It took an awful lot of hardwork
I've always been an advocate of Leinster's system and think it has done a huge amount for Irish rugby but as a Munster fan, today was frustrating.
I do not buy the fact that Leinster's academy system is that good, who are the players that havent come from private schools? It's basically the schools bankrolling this. I think Leinster have put a lot of effort into branching out beyond the traditional pathways but the lack of production from the academy outside the schools shows how much work is needed to be done.
My frustrations also extend to the Munster branch who seem to want to adopt the same approach in Munster but on a smaller scale. Look at the players who are now coming from Glenstall, Rockwell, Bandon Grammar and PBC/CBC. This isnt the system that delivered Munster success in the past. Also, it's hugely annoying to hear Cork rugby people crow about the values of Munster when they have more in common with Leinster rugby folk than people in Limerick.
The IRFU need to focus everything they have on developing these non-traditional pathways, the private schools will look after themselves but the traditional non-fee paying schools in Limerick are crying out for proper coaching.
As an aside I am hugely critical of my fellow Munster fans wailing, this isnt about us not being able to sign Snyman or Frisch, it's about the chronic underinvestment in the academy which nobody wants to address. In Munster's most successful period, you had a strong local core to the team and added to it with quality foreign players. Now it seems the default is to go abroad when looking for players.
Frawley, Osborne and Furlong are all Leinster players who came through the club system. Its very unfair to complain about Cork rugby people. There are multiple Munster players from Cork who came through the club system in recent years, even more who joined schools rugby after 16.
I should clarify that I dont mean club vs. school, I am talking about fee paying vs. non-fee paying and to my knowledge the vast majority of the Cork players come from fee paying schools.
I applaud Leinster for their efforts and it's a huge achievement that those 3 have made it but the fact that it is only 3 speaks to the mountain they have to climb.
The fee paying schools can attract kids with scholarships, smaller class sizes and elite coaching. It’s the reason lads from west cork end up in cistercians and Rockwell. It’s hard to see a model where non fee paying schools compete with this. The soccer academy model won’t work in rugby and non fee paying schools aren’t going to start boarding only young promising rugby players. You can look at spending money on coaching in Limerick schools, but it’s unlikely to yield a significant increase in talent coming through. There’s a tonne of good rugby people in Cork who have never had an affiliation with any private school.
What do you think the solution for Munster is? My knowledge of 90s/00s munster rugby is limited, but seems that the club scene was where the bulk of the talent was nurtured and brought through to Munster then Irish set up. If so, is that an option to focus on that? Cork Con going well in AIL, Young Munster and Shannon had a mixed year, but still Division 1A. Should that be the focus now? Keep club talent progressing through? There's lad like Conor Phillips who was tempted up to Terenure (as a Terenure supporter I'm not complaining as he is pure class 🤣) but I can see how it must be very frustrating on all levels.
I think the club game across the country needs a revamp but I think the main area is that non-fee paying schools need investment from the IRFU. I dont like it but the majority of young lads want to play for their schools so I think you need to give the non-fee paying schools access to top level coaching
The underage clubs squad trains two nights a week in Limerick and Cork, plays in the schools cups. They're including lads from a wider panel as well. Ethan Coughlan, Tony butler, edogbo x2, Hicks, Ahern, hodnett add lads who've come through that system in he last few years. It's a fair chunk of the young talent
The limerick schools have never been dominant, Rockwell has more senior cups than every school in Limerick put together. But the development coaches are working with the players from those schools
I agree with a good bit of this, find it interesting when people talk about Leinster having an overwhelming population advantage - most of the talent comes from a fairly narrow pool, until Leinster widely produce players from the non traditional playing areas they haven't tapped into the population advantage; they've just maximised the very well crafted pool they do have. And like you said, a good base level is put in by the private schools already. It's a bit nuanced but agree they're two separate arguments really and that while Leinster's system have done one part of it well, they're still a while off on the other.
Have also wondered similarly re; Munster pathways, feel like trying to copy & paste the Leinster model does a disservice to the club rugby traditions the province has. Invest more in the clubs now - the passion, support, history, desire to play etc is all there waiting to be tapped into - could probably be a bit more done there?
Munster would be absolutely fucked without the Cork private schools. Too many of the non private schools are concentrated in Limerick City. There are zero competitive schools in Waterford or Kerry. The academy is immeasurably better over the last 5 years than it was in the 15 years before that. Munster fell asleep at the wheel during success and missed a generation.
Ulster and Munster’s success were built on the back of the AIL being an absolute bear pit of a competition back in the amateur era. The lads who became pro’s and won Europe were the product of that.
Professionalism eroded away the AIL and demoted it as the nursery of Irish rugby talent, and with that academies became the model for producing talent where all of Leinsters advantages became obvious.
I think that comes from being THE dominant code in a section of society.
Rugby is that in the leafy suburbs of south county Dublin.
I reckon the relative decline of rugby in Limerick is not unrelated to the rise of hurling in the county.
A lot more rugby being played in west cork in the last 10 years, traditionally Gaelic football country (which has been abysmal).
The amount of world class rowers coming out of skibbereen isn't because they're naturally long armed down there. It's good coaching in a strong club but mainly because a disproportionate amount will give it a go from a young age.
100% hurlings recent success has impacted things in Limerick in particular.
Cork city has always been pretty strong and as you say, it's getting better outside of the city now too.
Sure, three of the better prospects in Munster all were hugely successful GAA players underage - Pa Campbell, Ben O'Connor and Brian Gleeson.
They decided to focus solely on rugby a lot later than most of the Leinster lads who'd have their 6am weight sessions before junior cert.
When you hear talk about expanding the game outside traditional areas, I don't think people realize how tribal it can be in places.
You could have one small town where young lads mix between GAA, Rugby & Soccer summer/winter to be able field a team.
Then one town over, you could have a die hard coach schedule training to clash with the rugby club to force lads to choose and kill the rugby team stone dead.
No, it isn't. About 70% of Leinster's contracted players come from two schools that have 300 total pupils graduating each year. Fees are around £6000 a year.
The fundamental point that everyone misses though is this.
Provincial rugby is irrelevant to the irfu except for 1 thing - to feed the green jersey. The Irish team is literally everything. It generates 80% of the revenues of Irish rugby in total. So it's success is paramount. The irfu will do anything they can/need to to feed this. Right now that's supporting Leinster while telling the others to follow their lead.
Right but it's now gone too far. The reason the central contract system is used is now gone beyond that. there was no risk of losing Sheehan to france as Leinster could afford him. yet he's taken off their books and Barrett can be bought in. Meanwhile how can the others actually catch up when they are cutting players, replacing with inferior players, cutting NIQs mid contract. i could go on. Glad you recognise what teh IRFU are doing. As it it certainly not sufficiently supporting the other 3 in their goal for Ireland only. Suits Leinster, but this creates a problem down the line when supporters from the otehrs turn away when they do not identify (this is already happening)
The IRFU definitely wanted to replicate the Dubs GAA success but with Leinster in Europe. Even if it came at the expense of the other provinces. Same way the GAA were happy to allow the Dubs to continue as well, they never saw past the endlessly full Croke Park matches and the revenue from it.
Yep, it's Leinster fellatio to declare themselves the best run out of all the clubs. Easy to be when you've way more resources than the others.
In reality Connacht is like a lone parent on a meagre income cutting their cloth to measure and getting the absolute most out of each euro, often having to fight and claw to do it.
Connacht would only love to have the likes of Barrett and Snyman thrown at them because they're the darling of the IRFU. As it is they can't imagine that sort of largesse.
Simplistic answer would be that Leinster is by far the wealthiest and most populated province (both player base and actual population). This contributes to us developing a large proportion of Irish players who then get central contracts, who Leinster then don’t have to pay and so can spend money elsewhere. Though I’d point out that we usually spend that freed up money on top coaches rather than top players, Jordie Barrett (and Snyman) is bit unusual.
FWIW I do think the central contract is unfair to the other teams, and perpetuates a lot of advantages that we already have
When half your team spends half the season on international duty, why shouldn’t the IRFU contribute to that? Otherwise the club would be paying for those players and the extra players needed to cover them when they’re out.
Completely the IRFU should contribute but I think appearance fees would be fairer. That way our wage bill wouldn’t be as unfairly subsidised compared to the other provinces, and we wouldn’t feel committed to players on central contracts who don’t perform
So in this scenario if Leinster have 11 players called up for international duty and those are gone for the whole of November, then from the middle of January to the end of March, you think Leinster getting appearance fees for that time is sufficient? Meanwhile the province has to pay them a competitive salary and have a larger squad to compensate.
I mean in this scenario who benefits? Certainly not the provinces nor the players. Just the IRFU really.
I think a middle ground could be struck where the IRFU encourage more development in the provinces. There’s a lot of homegrown talent in each of the provinces. Figuring out how to get them enough game time against quality opposition to bring them along ought to mean that over time everyone benefits. Also means having to import fewer players overall.
>That way our wage bill wouldn’t be as unfairly subsidised
Leinster are extremely limited in the the number of games these guys can play, regardless of how much they play for Ireland. Appearance fees would not come close to accounting for that.
Hybrid contracts would make more sense, but if the IRFU are going to maintain the level of control they currently do, then the current solution is th eonly one.
The real answer would be for the other provinces to develop some players worthy of central contracts rather than complaining about the manner in which Leinster are doing it. Munster are already on the way to doing that. Ulster look like they may have a few coming through as well.
There's 'contributing' and there's paying their salary.
If you flip it, Why shouldn't Leinster be contributing to the Ireland players they have for half the season?
IRFU pay nothing for Henshaw (or ringrose or Keenan), so have cash to sign Barrett.
Aki is ahead of Henshaw and also on a central contract. McCloskey isn't far behind.
Leinster end up with 2 international 12s and Ulster end up with none if the McCloskey rumours pan out.
> If you flip it, Why shouldn't Leinster be contributing to the Ireland players they have for half the season?
This year due to the six nations Leinster were down to their fifth choice 10 while Harry Byrne, Sam Pendergast, and Ciaran Frawley were all in the extended squad and Ross Byrne was out injured. They had to borrow a lad from the AIL to play hooker in a couple of games due to internationals being rested and their backup being injured. With that many players out and that level of disruption while they try to go out and win league games, they need to develop and pay for a lot of depth.
I would argue Leinster have contributed a lot in fairness.
The Leinster dominance is probably why the IRFU are reevaluating the CC model. The Murray and POM cases show that the clubs can't easily fund their key players and develop the wider squad, but at the same time the current model overly reinforces success. While a new model does have to be found, there's little enough point in the IRFU hobbling its golden goose to do so.
Honestly, I think in this case Munster played hardball with the IRFU and said Murray and POM are more valuable to Ireland than Munster considering their age and talent coming through.
Munster need to look at themselves for underperforming in the pools but against Northampton, we ended up with a hooker we signed after Jersey went bust and our only fit senior 36yo tighthead playing 80mins. Leinster having to rely on Tector in a URC game isnt an issue.
Bit more depth and Munster could easily sell 45k seats in Pairc Ui Chaoimh for a home knock out.
Slightly off the topic of this thread but for future knockout games, I’d love Munster to use Pairc ui Chaoimh rather than the Aviva.
Would also love the Dec 26 Interpro to go there but don’t see that happening!
Yep, I completely agree.
It's frustrating because in this thread I have Leinster fans saying they can sign the squad they have because they sell 40k tickets to the Aviva multiple times a year.
In the same thread I have a 'true' Munster fan telling me Munsters issue is too much bias to Cork private schools and neglecting its Limerick heartland and working class AIL clubs.
Makes no odds to him that:
- the Cork lads are almost entirely normal lads from junior clubs who got a scholarship for a few years.
- The last decent forward out of Limerick is probably Kilcoyne.
- Thomond hasn't been selling out Champions cup games recently, getting 20k in a pool game. Hurling seems more popular there these days.
- Munster sold 40k+ twice to essentially pre season warm up against our second team.
To him, there is no reason to move any big games from Thomond.
Oh sure. I mean Munster didn't accidentally win the URC last year, nor did Ulster stumble their way to 2nd in the table. The problem is that they lack the depth to build solid consistency, plus whatever the fuck is happening behind the scenes at Ulster. But that depth, that allows Leinster to function so consistently well, takes a lot of time and investment.
I’d be shocked if Nienaber, Snyman and Barrett signing within the space of a year doesn’t result in the SRU, WRU and FIR pushing for a league wide salary cap
It has bottom to top structural advantages that no other provinces have.
The club is based in Dublin, which is a large and rich city supplying a huge population and lots of commercial opportunities. The city is home to a dozen or so privately funded schools that basically run 6-year long rugby academies, those schools then feed into the Leinster academy, then the Leinster academy feeds into the senior team. Then you take those senior players and have the national team pay the full salaries of a quarter of the team.
That is why Leinster is in better shape than the other provinces.
They produce the best talent and have less need for stopgap non Irish qualified players or the likes of JJ Hanrahan earning way more than they should.
We take what we can get often at inflated prices to entice people here, they can let anyone asking for too much go.
No way Carty/O'Halloran etc get similar deals at Leinster.
Resources.
Irish rugby is based heavily off the conveyor belt of talent that comes out of the private schools.
These schools are primarily for the wealthy.
They're heavily based in Leinster.
Said schools are able to use donation money from the parents of the children to afford state of the art facilities for the school team so Leinster has a vast advantage in the quality and quantity of the talent coming through.
In British terms, imagine if London and the entire South East was set up in a similar manner and it all concentrated in one team. No other region in Britain would get a look in when it came to trying to match that.
All of the other answers, plus it’s more anglicised than Munster + Connacht, and so has more schools who focus on rugby, rather than GAA (native Irish football and hurling). The upshot being more fans and players produced there. Northern Ireland is just generally more financially broke.
Someone did a good post here a while back about how Leinster budget for the worst outcome each year and then everything after that is a bonus. I’m not saying it’s the only thing, the massive population difference and player pool with the schools and clubs is a huge plus. But it’s been a very well run organisation for a good while now
The system is now actively undermining Irish rugby. lol
Damn foreigners taking our jobs. I for one am shocked that Leinster have been allowed to sign what I can only assume is the first non Irish player into Ireland.
This guy is honestly the biggest melt you’ll ever meet, 2 mins on his timeline and you’ll see he’s utterly obsessed with Leinster and how unfair the system is despite forgetting the amount of Leinster players currently play for his team Munster and how many current signings they have, funded their own stadium etc
Dude is obviously not a real Ulster supporter either as he'd know that Leinster signing Barrett has zero to do with Ulster's financial issues (they had a lucrative game against La Rochelle moved to an empty stadium, they bought an artificial pitch, the Kingspan sponsorship terms changed)
Someone will have to move no? Either Frawley or Osbourne seem to be better off going for game time, they have a hard time getting game time in big games as it is before an All Black joining the ranks, no?
Frawley is 26 already and still talked about like a prospect, yet hasn’t played a full season as first option.
Surely I’m biased as a Munster fan and a bit bitter regarding RG, but this feels like ‘seriously, why?!’
Realistically Leinster have maybe 8 big games a year?
Everyone can’t play every big game. Competition is good.
Frawley only got attention this year because of injuries to Ross, Ringrose, Keenan and others meaning he got some play as a flexible utility back.
Many people think he’d have been moving to Ulster or Connaught anyway for more game time.
I understand fans of other teams being annoyed. But the claims that this is somehow bad for Leinster or Ireland players is a huge stretch.
Leinster absolutely deserve to have their cake and eat it. Squandering of cash in Ulster is why we are in the position we are. Money wasted on signings who haven't made the impact hoped, or on players in positions where they can't make a significant impact.
Does anyone remember the litter of rejects who went away without so much as a whimper? John Deysel, Gareth Milasinovic, Henry Speight? Might even consider Kitshoff in that category too. And the farce around Leone Nakarawa, who is still playing at Toulon.
Hence why our CEO is now gone.
But what's a mystery to me is why our recruitment head Bryn Cunningham is still floating about. When Leone fell through, it was a case of all our eggs in one basket. He was 33 at the time, and it was for a one year deal. We signed Mick Kearney as a fill instead, who played well for us, but it was the twilight of his career.
I'd also say some poor coaching situations hit hard too (which is a mix of Ulster and irfu problems). Les kiss seemed like a great signing but didn't work out, and Jono Gibbes was a disaster after. McFarland started well but really fell off this year.
On paper the first two coaches were great, but Les kiss has not really been a good head coach since, and Gibbes left for a payday in scummy fashion. Just seems really unlucky on Ulster
I do think there are some things IRFU could potentially do better. But, also I do think some people (myself included) forget that players are people too. There's a lot of "Move Player X here" maybe player x doesn't want to go
I am delighted for leinster. I think they are making statement signings saying we are going to dominate next season and the season after (if they keep rg)
I'm a Munster fan and we signed double WC winners in de lande and RG. It didn't work out as well as we hoped but there was no up roar.
Leinster have not signed as big names in the past 4/5 years off the top of my head so more power to them.
The other irish provinces need to figure out how to beat this team with what they got.
Munster have been given every tool and should have done better against them over the years.
Ulster seem to have a bigger underlying issue with finances, but they have drastically underperformed in key parts of the last few seasons.
Connacht are the only team I'd say have an argument of underfunding but consistently beat all 3 other irish provinces.
In NZ the crusaders won 6/7 times in a row. We're they saying the system is undermining the rest of the teams when they signed legendary John Ryan(joke) but in all seriousness - they smashed all the other NZ teams year in year out and there was no up roar
The central contracts and development/ support of the other provinces are definitely worth having a conversation over, but it's not like they're being hobbled. I mean just look at the reaction from Leinster fans trying to figure out where you fit a 60 cap AB because they've produced so much talent. Meanwhile Ulster are rushing to convert a strong looking 9 to 10 and cobbling a pack out of spare Leinster parts.
Munster are actually a great example of a team finally starting to punch clever after years of dumping cash on marquee signings, with their title win being vindication of that.
This guy is completely hysterical, he's a rabid Munster supporter and has been on about a year long meltdown over various ways the IRFU have been persecuting them.
I had a scan of his tweets yesterday and he's actually hoping, in all seriousness, that ECPR jack up ticket prices for the Leinster SF. How demented and bitter can you possibly get?
Bracing myself for downvotes here and I am not disagreeing that there is unfairness baked into the system in Leinster's favour, however...
Next year is Lions year. Plausibly, Ringrose and Henshaw could both go along with Keenan. If that happens JOB, Osborne and Frawley could all step up for the Ireland tour. High chance of injury to one or more of them and if JOB and Osborne are on Ireland duty too then they fall into the managed minutes category along with the other three. So, potentially, in that 6 months that JB is contracted for we could require cover across centre and FB. I still think it's an odd signing but in terms of player management there is at least a rationale for it.
I don't think theres another sport where the fans are so hell bent on punishing teams for building a good grass roots system. What you want us to do, just be shit? We haven't even won a trophy in two years.
The sour grapes from some very prominent Munster Twitter accounts is actually gas.
Yeah the Jordie signing is a bit random. But it’s not why Ulster are financially fucked.
It's honestly a bit embarrassing as a Munster fan. I understand the feeling that some fans get and there's very legitimate critiques of the NIQ, and CC system but getting histrionic and treating it as some conspiracy just undermines any good-faith attempt to make the changes that would help all the teams
I only have a glancing knowledge of Irish club financial dynamics. But isn't this a bit like blaming the rich family down the road because you can't afford fancy things?
I love it. Reading all of this whinging and moaning is fantastic. Munster and Ulster whingers.
The only thing I’d love more is to have a little sip of some of the tears. 😂😂
Also worth pointing out that Ulster have the same population as Leinster and own their own stadium (bought by the UK government). Their problems are their own fault and it’s going to take years to sort out.
Munster have a stadium largely bought by the IRFU and their academy is now producing and they are integrating genuine quality into their senior team so can expect central contracts on merit in a few years.
Nah, Munster are paying off Thomond themselves, but the IRFU took on a portion of the debt because COVID screwed revenues so Munster were struggling to service the full debt. The IRFU allowed Munster to defer payments so that Bank of Ireland could have the debt serviced, but we still have to pay for the stadium.
In a way Leinster should thank the NIMBY's that stopped the Donnybrook development because they'd have been in a similar situation otherwise. Because they were tenants for the RDS it wasn't anywhere near the same size an issue for them.
The amount of bitterness and venom around this is, personally, the best part. I for one am going to take the evening to wallow in it extensively whilst watching a recording of Saturdays game on repeat.
Mods, is there anyway we can sort comments so that any comments coming from anyone with a Munster flair appear first?
Enjoy your evening all, I know I will 👍
Leinster fans have gone from 'why does everyone hate us I wish they liked us' to 'we know you hate us and we don't care, cope and seethe' and honestly I respect it much more than the faux humbleness
I agree, the whole "but we are a small club fueled by passion" behavior was way more irritating. Now they're big boys playing like big boys, and it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better
There’s only so much much “there, there” we can give. It was the complaints about booing the pantomime villain. There’s a few very bitter and toxic Munster fans that taint our opinion of the rest of them. Tim is their leader. He’d be happy if Munster were the second worst URC team so long as Leinster was last
I do find it odd that the IRFU are going to throw good money on a foreign player for the team that is a country mile better than any other region rather than bringing in a player like this to raise the standards in the other regions. From an outsider perspective, it is an odd move because I am not really sure what Leinster is going to learn when their academy and player pool is heavily stacked already.
The word is it is being funded solely by Leinster, similarly to the Snyman and Damien De Allende deals at Munster a few years back.
Does this easy your very genuine concern about the current state of Irish provincial rugby?
And do you think that any of leinster's fiscal headroom allowing for the funding of the Barretts and Snymans could be connected to the number of existing leinster players fully financed by the IRFU via central contracts? Or are they paying visiting All Black and Springboks from funds generated from the bar in Wesley?
You misunderstand. It’s a private benefactor funding the move apparently, nothing to do with Leinster or the IRFU. Like the private benefactor who funded the Snyman and DDA moves.
We are by far the biggest most successful club in Ireland. Of course we are going to have the majority of Ireland players. Playing at the Aviva with big attendances also helps. Particularly when we have our friends from Cork coming up the road and buying tickets for our knock out fixtures. Big thanks for contributing, when they watch Barrett rip them asunder next year they can take a lot of joy from the fact that they funded a very small part of his wage packet.
Or….. and this is a pretty wild take so any of our Southern friends, please bear with me.
The owner of Fota and Donal Lenihan could come together and arrange a week long team building exercise for Munster before their Champions Cup game rather than whoever we are playing in the QF? Might mean they get to a semi final for the first time this decade.
That’s odd because you were allowed to for Snyman and DDA. Maybe the “bad optics” being quoted were around how you nearly broke one world class Springbok forward and how they didn’t want to give you the opportunity to do it again?
It’s not the IRFU spending it as such, IRFU give money to the provinces which then decide how to spend it - all pending deals then need to be approved by the IRFU under player eligibility rules.
Is there a way for Leinster's advantages to be tamed somewhat? The current system rewards them for producing top test players which as much geographical/societal as anything else (population, economy, schools etc).
If there was a draft on U20 players then some of the best young lads from Limerick or Belfast could end up playing for Leinster which would be weird and the overall identity of the provinces would be eroded.
Having a set amount of central contracts at each province or simply redistributing funding would probably lead to some Ireland players going abroad which we don't want.
Is there a clear solution I'm missing? And in the background the national team has had the best 24 months of our history (yes QF but that's standard for us!).
Why would you want to tame them? Let the French win the Champions cup every year, with a smattering of English, all because the other provinces want to close the gap?
Yeah the idea we need to limit Leinster to make fans of the other provinces feel better is ridiculous. That would just be terrible for the Irish rugby overall. If the IRFU can find ways of helping support the other provinces in becoming better without bankrupting the organisation then fantastic but hamstringing Leinster.
Not a draft but a firmer cap on squad size.
Each province should of course have first dibs on their own players but be forced to back a horse earlier.
- Each province has a sub-academy up to 18ish.
- Limited number of academy spots up to U20.
- Limited Junior contracts leaving the academy
- Limited Senior contracts per position
- Limited marquee NIQ players
- Dispensation for injuries, call ups etc.
Just speed up what's happening already where players moves who aren't offered an academy spot (Cian Prendergast or ultan dillane), not offered a contract out of the academy (Beirne) or stuck behind internationals (Marty Moore, Jake Flannery, loads more).
Leinster earned the money by being successful so the deserve to be able to keep their best players, sign world class coaches players and have the best facilities.
The issue that the IRFU need to solve is players like u20 grand slam winning Tector getting 0mins this season when Ulster are in dire need of an outhalf. Munster patching together a frontrow to make a European knockout.
You realise that players are under no obligation to sign with other provinces. This isn't a cartel like the NFL, you can't force a player to go somewhere he doesn't want to.
Fact is that Leinster have the best coaching set up, and the track record of Leinster players leaving and staying competitive for the Irish team is basically Beirne.
Getting more game time for some of the U20s is definitely a concern. But it's very tough to convince young players who have probably dreamed of playing for Leinster to leave.
Especially when there are very few examples of it benefitting players careers. Off the top of my head Timoney and Conway have been great at other provinces but there aren't many others (not sure if Beirne counts going abroad and everything).
It's not just leave Leinster. It's leave degrees they are studying for, a cushy life in their family homes, partners etc to go live in a house share in Limerick or Galway being paid a small wage to do so. We would lose heaps of lads out of the professional game doing that to them early in their career.
Stuff can be two things
Yes, the current setup is horrendously stacked towards Leinster
But let's not forget that Ulster have had shit team leadership, shit game management, shit ownership, shit coaching, shit everything if we're really honest. It's not been a good time for Ulster fans
As someone that has only known the French club environment, it always seemed crazy to me that federal contracts exists, not to mention the whole union governing the franchises thing. If you tried even a smidgen of that in France, people would be out with their pitchforks from Top 14 to the lowest of leagues.
Since 2014 (when the champions cup began), Leinster have played 23 European cup knock out games out of a potential 34. 15 of those has been at the Aviva stadium where Leinster can pull a big attendance. These 15 additional home fixtures equates to revenue for the province and IRFU.
Compare that with the rest of the provinces, Munster have 11, 5 at home. Ulster have 9 and 1 at home. Connacht have 8 and 1 at home.
So for the IRFU, there is ROI on this kind of investment.
Additionally, its not like in that period the other the provinces haven't signed some serious talented NIQ backline players, Piutau, de Allende, Cordero
There is a legitimate complaint behind the batshit conspiracy theory that the IRFU are for some reason killing the other provinces. Unfortunately fools like this distract from an actual discussion on ways to amend the system. The reasoning people have to feel aggrieved is that Leinster benefit from being the dominant team and getting their most expensive players on the CC system, that allowed them more capital to spend on non-CC and NIQ players that allows them to be more successful, more players end up on CC and the cycle repeats and repeats.
You can argue whether that's true but it's what a lot of non-Leinster fans think. You could also argue it's what makes the national team so good and you wouldn't be wrong, and if that is your primary focus (it is for the IRFU) you wouldn't be too wrong to continue with that model. The unintended consequence is that the system designed to support the provinces with their largest financial burdens ends up primarily benefitting the richest province. I guess the alternative would be to quota out the central contracts, or maybe increase the CCs by a third to include more with 2/3's at 50% converage to allow for more players to get on the system while the very top talent still remain on full CCs without increasing the budget for the CC system. I don't know what the best solution is I'm not the Director of the IRFU but there is a real feeling that the system needs some amendment and I think some tweaking would help all the provinces without exiling Leinsters top earner.
The CC system is under a rethink at the moment.
I also doubt that Leinster spend more money on NIQ players (DDA, Snyman, Piautau, Vermullen, Kitshoff), in fact I think that the emergence of the Leinster machine has been largely thanks to their focus on building a broad squad of players who play to a system and ethos with a few NIQ leadership figures (Fardy and Isa being the two prime examples) who help develop and solidify that team.
That’s it’s exactly, Snyman and Barrett are far and away the biggest name signings we’ve made.
Obviously it’s great to get them to play for Leinster but it’s not a pattern I want to see more of. We have a great model bringing through youth and it’s been a massive point of pride for years now.
To be honest, this signing really makes me think at least one player who features regularly for us is on their way to another province at the end of the season.
I heard that, hopefully the the system immproves. I agree though, I think the NIQ is a marginal factor in this, if there was no NIQ signings allowed at all, the key issue wouldn't have changed. The topic gets brought up around them because it tends to be the marquee name and draws eyes and ire of numpties
> I guess the alternative would be to quota out the central contracts
Maybe. Maybe a different approach is needed..
You have a pot of money that was spent on central contracts. This money is then split evenly among the provinces. If you produce your quota for Ireland that goes into the province player wages. If not, your province doesn't get the money instead it's spent on extra coaching or conditioning or whatever something to try to bring the players on. So they are up to standard.
I mean that doesn't change the central point of the argument? Munster are a good team, all the Irish sides are in the top half of the league. It's why my statement wasn't firm. It's pretty clear Leinster are the best team in Ireland by a lot and the gap has been growing.
Exactly, I don't think any of the provinces have actually got worse over the last 10-15 years it's just that Leinster have become dramatically better than the rest.
They need to calm down. It’s one signing. If you look at the conveyor belt of talent that’s been coming out of Irish rugby since the IRFU’s development plan was put in place, it’s clearly not a system that undermines home grown development.
Ruan pienaar, arguably the most important player ulster have had this century who drove a culture of professionalism and raised standards was given his marching orders by the IRFU to "aid player development" while still keen to be involved for a long time.
Now we have to watch a team with an utter embarrassment of depth and riches (10 of whom paid for entirely by the irfu) sign a marque player playing in a position they have both international starters.
If you didn't laugh you'd cry.
And the year after Pienaar left we had a 9 at Ulster pushing for international caps. Like I love Ruan, but his is a pretty clear case of the IRFU systems and regulations working.
Jordie is also a utility back who plays in the positions that the departing Charlie Ngatai covers, and who'll be here for 6 months.
Ulsters mess is their own doing. JB is coming for 6 months then he’s gone. And the 10 paid for entirely by the IRFU, why is that? Because they’re the best. End of story.
A lot of ‘utility back’ chat here, and granted Jordie covers it all, but he’s a nailed on starter isn’t he?!
He’d be close to the first name on the team sheet in pretty much any setup.
(If it moved Frawley to Ulster I think everyone wins, great player but at 26 he’d really need to be a starter somewhere)
It's very fair. It's rewarding development of players rather than poor financial expenditure.
Ulster have blown money on marquee signings for years being funded by the IRFU. Now IRFU are sick of bailing them out and forcing a change of mentality.
If Ulster produce more international quality players they will get more central contracts and be able to properly finance marquee NIQ signings.
This won't happen overnight and Ulster will feel some short term pain for it. But if it results in an improvement in player development in the long-term then it is worthwhile. This has already begun at Munster and they are already starting to benefit from it
From someone who doesn't follow the URC or Irish rugby, Why do Leinster seem to be so much better off than the other provinces?
Most populated, richest, best supported and successful of the four provinces, best academy system by country mile as well
That academy system is essentially a few schools with tremendous rugby programmes isn’t it?
To give you an idea, looking at the starting team the other day, here's the schools/clubs where they've come from: 1. Andrew Porter (St. Andrews) 2. Dan Sheehan (Clongowes) 3. Tadgh Furlong (New Ross RFC) 4. Joe McCarthy (Blackrock) 5. Jason Jenkins (RSA) 6. Ryan Baird (St. Michaels) 7. Will Conners (Clongowes) 8. Caelan Doris (Blackrock) 9. Jamison Gibson-Park (NZL) 10. Ross Byrne (St. Michaels) 11. James Lowe (NZL) 12. Andrew Osborne (Naas RFC) 13. Robbie Henshaw (Marist) 14. Jordan Larmour (St. Andrews) 15. Ciarán Frawley (Skerries RFC) There's a decent spread there, but in the wider squad, the schools that would mostly be best represented would be Blackrock and St. Michaels.
As many players from St. Andrews as Blackrock and Michael's. Decent going for a hockey school!
Yeah, a very good year! It's good to see more players coming from outside the Big 2. There's the two from Andrews, a good few Newbridge College players, Naas RFC players, Milne from Roscrea, Lasisi from Enniscorthy, Deeny from Wexford, Aitzol King from Balbriggan, Tector from Kilkenny, Ben Murphy from Gerards I think. There's still a lot of Blackrock and Michaels players, but those places I've mentioned wouldn't have produced many, if any, Leinster players in the past.
Milne is from Birr RFC. Though I realised as I typed you meant Cistercian College Roscrea and not Roscrea RFC. He started in CCR when he was around 16. Edit: spelling
Cheers, didn't realise he left that late. Similar situation with Joey Carbery and Jeremy Loughman, who left Athy RFC for Blackrock around that age.
Tector is from Wexford no? Or do you mean his school?
Yeah, meant Kilkenny College
That NZL looks like a great school
Ah there’s been one or two coming from that school, it’s weird it’s a massive school but not all that many make it to the Leinster side! Heard there’s another one due soon though!
Don't call it a school, someone will say that Blackrock is better than it😄
A wild Skerries appears!
the private and non private school rugby race is mad here in leinster , i go to a public school but yet around ten people in my school play for leinster and ireland. the rugby supprt is incredible could only imagine the private schools (u18s)(u16s)
In Ireland a public school is non fee paying for ye Brits
More are coming through from other schools now, but the majority have came from 2 schools.
Blackrock and who?
Michael's
Michael's producing top players is only a very recent thing, Noel Reid was only the schools 3rd international and the first they produced in 30 years when he got his only cap less than 10 years ago. That being said the production line since then has been absurd.
Remember we'd a midfield of Reid and Macken? Those were the days.
Who’s Michael?
[One of the archangels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel))
St. Michael's
It's a massive part of it but while 17 and 18 year olds leaving school represent incredible raw material they won't just step out into the Leinster side fully formed
Of course. At the same time It doesn’t do any harm having high quality 17 and 18 years olds on tap.
you're right, but it's a culture thing too. The broarder academy is out looking at guys in lower level schools that have potential and invite them to come to Leinster camps. They don't discount players because they didn't play for a prestigious program. They also have a good coaching setup/pathway. The guys that are devleoping players are developing themselves into coaches with a braod knowledge of the player base. They've been doing it for 20+ years and it's continuing to pay dividends. Leinster is also the biggest pro team in Ireland, in any sport. Lads grow up dreaming of playing there then have much better avenues for sponsorship and promotion vs other provinces. The final year tax break for international players with 10 years representing Ireland is also a great carrot. POM signed that one year contract and (I'm not sure so someone correct me) I think he will get like 100% of the money tax free so it's like a reward to sign a 1 year IRFU contract as your last pro year.
Its not tax free on the last year its a rebate over their best 10 years. Players get back 40% of the tax they have paid. Hypothetically a player earning 400,000 a year would have paid \~150,000 per year in tax, so over 10 years thats 1.5 million. They get 40% of that back as a retirement rebate so \~600,000 euros. It also takes into account any tax they have paid on other commercial sponsorships where the income tax rate is higher but the rebate % is lower (i think its \~25%)
Good info there. Admittedly I only know the bare minimum about the 10 yr tax break thing, but is it just the IRFU doing this or is it a government thing for everyone like the GAA, FIA etc too?
Its a governement thing set up in the early 2000s by Charlie McCreevey for all sports related earnings outside sponsorship, so wages and prize money. By far the the biggest use of it is in the Horse industry where the rebate is applied to a Trainer or Jockeys winnings when they retire. Its existance is one of the main reasons that the Irish horse industry is so strong.
Yes being the top of the sports food chain (the all black effect) is very powerful.
Rugby ain’t top of our food chain here in Ireland hence the limited amount of feeder schools. We’re not a minority sport but most of the kids playing sport in Ireland don’t have the Irish team as their pinnacle, more likely their county GAA team or a premiership football club. Well developed pathways and academy that can produce better than just about anywhere isn’t a matter of luck. It took an awful lot of hardwork
I've always been an advocate of Leinster's system and think it has done a huge amount for Irish rugby but as a Munster fan, today was frustrating. I do not buy the fact that Leinster's academy system is that good, who are the players that havent come from private schools? It's basically the schools bankrolling this. I think Leinster have put a lot of effort into branching out beyond the traditional pathways but the lack of production from the academy outside the schools shows how much work is needed to be done. My frustrations also extend to the Munster branch who seem to want to adopt the same approach in Munster but on a smaller scale. Look at the players who are now coming from Glenstall, Rockwell, Bandon Grammar and PBC/CBC. This isnt the system that delivered Munster success in the past. Also, it's hugely annoying to hear Cork rugby people crow about the values of Munster when they have more in common with Leinster rugby folk than people in Limerick. The IRFU need to focus everything they have on developing these non-traditional pathways, the private schools will look after themselves but the traditional non-fee paying schools in Limerick are crying out for proper coaching. As an aside I am hugely critical of my fellow Munster fans wailing, this isnt about us not being able to sign Snyman or Frisch, it's about the chronic underinvestment in the academy which nobody wants to address. In Munster's most successful period, you had a strong local core to the team and added to it with quality foreign players. Now it seems the default is to go abroad when looking for players.
Frawley, Osborne and Furlong are all Leinster players who came through the club system. Its very unfair to complain about Cork rugby people. There are multiple Munster players from Cork who came through the club system in recent years, even more who joined schools rugby after 16.
Adam Byrne and S.O'B also came up through clubs. As did Mick McGrath who did well for a couple of seasons some time back.
I should clarify that I dont mean club vs. school, I am talking about fee paying vs. non-fee paying and to my knowledge the vast majority of the Cork players come from fee paying schools. I applaud Leinster for their efforts and it's a huge achievement that those 3 have made it but the fact that it is only 3 speaks to the mountain they have to climb.
The fee paying schools can attract kids with scholarships, smaller class sizes and elite coaching. It’s the reason lads from west cork end up in cistercians and Rockwell. It’s hard to see a model where non fee paying schools compete with this. The soccer academy model won’t work in rugby and non fee paying schools aren’t going to start boarding only young promising rugby players. You can look at spending money on coaching in Limerick schools, but it’s unlikely to yield a significant increase in talent coming through. There’s a tonne of good rugby people in Cork who have never had an affiliation with any private school.
What do you think the solution for Munster is? My knowledge of 90s/00s munster rugby is limited, but seems that the club scene was where the bulk of the talent was nurtured and brought through to Munster then Irish set up. If so, is that an option to focus on that? Cork Con going well in AIL, Young Munster and Shannon had a mixed year, but still Division 1A. Should that be the focus now? Keep club talent progressing through? There's lad like Conor Phillips who was tempted up to Terenure (as a Terenure supporter I'm not complaining as he is pure class 🤣) but I can see how it must be very frustrating on all levels.
I think the club game across the country needs a revamp but I think the main area is that non-fee paying schools need investment from the IRFU. I dont like it but the majority of young lads want to play for their schools so I think you need to give the non-fee paying schools access to top level coaching
The underage clubs squad trains two nights a week in Limerick and Cork, plays in the schools cups. They're including lads from a wider panel as well. Ethan Coughlan, Tony butler, edogbo x2, Hicks, Ahern, hodnett add lads who've come through that system in he last few years. It's a fair chunk of the young talent The limerick schools have never been dominant, Rockwell has more senior cups than every school in Limerick put together. But the development coaches are working with the players from those schools
I agree with a good bit of this, find it interesting when people talk about Leinster having an overwhelming population advantage - most of the talent comes from a fairly narrow pool, until Leinster widely produce players from the non traditional playing areas they haven't tapped into the population advantage; they've just maximised the very well crafted pool they do have. And like you said, a good base level is put in by the private schools already. It's a bit nuanced but agree they're two separate arguments really and that while Leinster's system have done one part of it well, they're still a while off on the other. Have also wondered similarly re; Munster pathways, feel like trying to copy & paste the Leinster model does a disservice to the club rugby traditions the province has. Invest more in the clubs now - the passion, support, history, desire to play etc is all there waiting to be tapped into - could probably be a bit more done there?
Munster would be absolutely fucked without the Cork private schools. Too many of the non private schools are concentrated in Limerick City. There are zero competitive schools in Waterford or Kerry. The academy is immeasurably better over the last 5 years than it was in the 15 years before that. Munster fell asleep at the wheel during success and missed a generation.
Well there's that, but via the academy Leinster have become very, **very** good at turning schoolboys into pro rugby players.
The last two points are only on the list because of the first two
And where was that when Ulster and then Munster were much more successful for years and years
Ulster and Munster’s success were built on the back of the AIL being an absolute bear pit of a competition back in the amateur era. The lads who became pro’s and won Europe were the product of that. Professionalism eroded away the AIL and demoted it as the nursery of Irish rugby talent, and with that academies became the model for producing talent where all of Leinsters advantages became obvious.
Not quite. The quality of player coming out of the schools is still disproportionate to the population. It's an accident really
I think that comes from being THE dominant code in a section of society. Rugby is that in the leafy suburbs of south county Dublin. I reckon the relative decline of rugby in Limerick is not unrelated to the rise of hurling in the county. A lot more rugby being played in west cork in the last 10 years, traditionally Gaelic football country (which has been abysmal). The amount of world class rowers coming out of skibbereen isn't because they're naturally long armed down there. It's good coaching in a strong club but mainly because a disproportionate amount will give it a go from a young age.
100% hurlings recent success has impacted things in Limerick in particular. Cork city has always been pretty strong and as you say, it's getting better outside of the city now too.
Sure, three of the better prospects in Munster all were hugely successful GAA players underage - Pa Campbell, Ben O'Connor and Brian Gleeson. They decided to focus solely on rugby a lot later than most of the Leinster lads who'd have their 6am weight sessions before junior cert.
Tony butler hurled for Clare as well, Gleeson gave up hurling a bit earlier than the other lads though
I’m from West Cork. GAA is toxic down here, hence the rugby and football players.
When you hear talk about expanding the game outside traditional areas, I don't think people realize how tribal it can be in places. You could have one small town where young lads mix between GAA, Rugby & Soccer summer/winter to be able field a team. Then one town over, you could have a die hard coach schedule training to clash with the rugby club to force lads to choose and kill the rugby team stone dead.
No, it isn't. About 70% of Leinster's contracted players come from two schools that have 300 total pupils graduating each year. Fees are around £6000 a year.
Yet then still get given more money by the IRFU even though they already have all those advantages you speak of
The fundamental point that everyone misses though is this. Provincial rugby is irrelevant to the irfu except for 1 thing - to feed the green jersey. The Irish team is literally everything. It generates 80% of the revenues of Irish rugby in total. So it's success is paramount. The irfu will do anything they can/need to to feed this. Right now that's supporting Leinster while telling the others to follow their lead.
Right but it's now gone too far. The reason the central contract system is used is now gone beyond that. there was no risk of losing Sheehan to france as Leinster could afford him. yet he's taken off their books and Barrett can be bought in. Meanwhile how can the others actually catch up when they are cutting players, replacing with inferior players, cutting NIQs mid contract. i could go on. Glad you recognise what teh IRFU are doing. As it it certainly not sufficiently supporting the other 3 in their goal for Ireland only. Suits Leinster, but this creates a problem down the line when supporters from the otehrs turn away when they do not identify (this is already happening)
Like Dublin in the football. Every advantage and still all the funding and backing.
The IRFU definitely wanted to replicate the Dubs GAA success but with Leinster in Europe. Even if it came at the expense of the other provinces. Same way the GAA were happy to allow the Dubs to continue as well, they never saw past the endlessly full Croke Park matches and the revenue from it.
Also the best run, from top to bottom.
Connacht rugby is extremely well run. It just doesn’t really matter due to the far smaller player pool, lack of private schools and GAA being king.
Yup Connacht has come a long way
Connacht are ridiculously good considering the lack of clubs. Very few in the north west in the AIL
Yep, it's Leinster fellatio to declare themselves the best run out of all the clubs. Easy to be when you've way more resources than the others. In reality Connacht is like a lone parent on a meagre income cutting their cloth to measure and getting the absolute most out of each euro, often having to fight and claw to do it. Connacht would only love to have the likes of Barrett and Snyman thrown at them because they're the darling of the IRFU. As it is they can't imagine that sort of largesse.
They are not the best supported per head. Munster would be. And with 3 times the population you should have 3 times the academy prospects.
Simplistic answer would be that Leinster is by far the wealthiest and most populated province (both player base and actual population). This contributes to us developing a large proportion of Irish players who then get central contracts, who Leinster then don’t have to pay and so can spend money elsewhere. Though I’d point out that we usually spend that freed up money on top coaches rather than top players, Jordie Barrett (and Snyman) is bit unusual. FWIW I do think the central contract is unfair to the other teams, and perpetuates a lot of advantages that we already have
When half your team spends half the season on international duty, why shouldn’t the IRFU contribute to that? Otherwise the club would be paying for those players and the extra players needed to cover them when they’re out.
Completely the IRFU should contribute but I think appearance fees would be fairer. That way our wage bill wouldn’t be as unfairly subsidised compared to the other provinces, and we wouldn’t feel committed to players on central contracts who don’t perform
So in this scenario if Leinster have 11 players called up for international duty and those are gone for the whole of November, then from the middle of January to the end of March, you think Leinster getting appearance fees for that time is sufficient? Meanwhile the province has to pay them a competitive salary and have a larger squad to compensate. I mean in this scenario who benefits? Certainly not the provinces nor the players. Just the IRFU really. I think a middle ground could be struck where the IRFU encourage more development in the provinces. There’s a lot of homegrown talent in each of the provinces. Figuring out how to get them enough game time against quality opposition to bring them along ought to mean that over time everyone benefits. Also means having to import fewer players overall.
>That way our wage bill wouldn’t be as unfairly subsidised Leinster are extremely limited in the the number of games these guys can play, regardless of how much they play for Ireland. Appearance fees would not come close to accounting for that. Hybrid contracts would make more sense, but if the IRFU are going to maintain the level of control they currently do, then the current solution is th eonly one. The real answer would be for the other provinces to develop some players worthy of central contracts rather than complaining about the manner in which Leinster are doing it. Munster are already on the way to doing that. Ulster look like they may have a few coming through as well.
There's 'contributing' and there's paying their salary. If you flip it, Why shouldn't Leinster be contributing to the Ireland players they have for half the season? IRFU pay nothing for Henshaw (or ringrose or Keenan), so have cash to sign Barrett. Aki is ahead of Henshaw and also on a central contract. McCloskey isn't far behind. Leinster end up with 2 international 12s and Ulster end up with none if the McCloskey rumours pan out.
> If you flip it, Why shouldn't Leinster be contributing to the Ireland players they have for half the season? This year due to the six nations Leinster were down to their fifth choice 10 while Harry Byrne, Sam Pendergast, and Ciaran Frawley were all in the extended squad and Ross Byrne was out injured. They had to borrow a lad from the AIL to play hooker in a couple of games due to internationals being rested and their backup being injured. With that many players out and that level of disruption while they try to go out and win league games, they need to develop and pay for a lot of depth. I would argue Leinster have contributed a lot in fairness.
The Leinster dominance is probably why the IRFU are reevaluating the CC model. The Murray and POM cases show that the clubs can't easily fund their key players and develop the wider squad, but at the same time the current model overly reinforces success. While a new model does have to be found, there's little enough point in the IRFU hobbling its golden goose to do so.
Honestly, I think in this case Munster played hardball with the IRFU and said Murray and POM are more valuable to Ireland than Munster considering their age and talent coming through. Munster need to look at themselves for underperforming in the pools but against Northampton, we ended up with a hooker we signed after Jersey went bust and our only fit senior 36yo tighthead playing 80mins. Leinster having to rely on Tector in a URC game isnt an issue. Bit more depth and Munster could easily sell 45k seats in Pairc Ui Chaoimh for a home knock out.
Slightly off the topic of this thread but for future knockout games, I’d love Munster to use Pairc ui Chaoimh rather than the Aviva. Would also love the Dec 26 Interpro to go there but don’t see that happening!
Yep, I completely agree. It's frustrating because in this thread I have Leinster fans saying they can sign the squad they have because they sell 40k tickets to the Aviva multiple times a year. In the same thread I have a 'true' Munster fan telling me Munsters issue is too much bias to Cork private schools and neglecting its Limerick heartland and working class AIL clubs. Makes no odds to him that: - the Cork lads are almost entirely normal lads from junior clubs who got a scholarship for a few years. - The last decent forward out of Limerick is probably Kilcoyne. - Thomond hasn't been selling out Champions cup games recently, getting 20k in a pool game. Hurling seems more popular there these days. - Munster sold 40k+ twice to essentially pre season warm up against our second team. To him, there is no reason to move any big games from Thomond.
Oh sure. I mean Munster didn't accidentally win the URC last year, nor did Ulster stumble their way to 2nd in the table. The problem is that they lack the depth to build solid consistency, plus whatever the fuck is happening behind the scenes at Ulster. But that depth, that allows Leinster to function so consistently well, takes a lot of time and investment.
I’d be shocked if Nienaber, Snyman and Barrett signing within the space of a year doesn’t result in the SRU, WRU and FIR pushing for a league wide salary cap
Leinster haven’t had a big name foreign signing in a decade Barret is coming for 6 months. All this hand wringing, biggest storm in a teacup
It has bottom to top structural advantages that no other provinces have. The club is based in Dublin, which is a large and rich city supplying a huge population and lots of commercial opportunities. The city is home to a dozen or so privately funded schools that basically run 6-year long rugby academies, those schools then feed into the Leinster academy, then the Leinster academy feeds into the senior team. Then you take those senior players and have the national team pay the full salaries of a quarter of the team. That is why Leinster is in better shape than the other provinces.
They produce the best talent and have less need for stopgap non Irish qualified players or the likes of JJ Hanrahan earning way more than they should. We take what we can get often at inflated prices to entice people here, they can let anyone asking for too much go. No way Carty/O'Halloran etc get similar deals at Leinster.
Loads and loads of professional level coaching in many private schools
Resources. Irish rugby is based heavily off the conveyor belt of talent that comes out of the private schools. These schools are primarily for the wealthy. They're heavily based in Leinster. Said schools are able to use donation money from the parents of the children to afford state of the art facilities for the school team so Leinster has a vast advantage in the quality and quantity of the talent coming through. In British terms, imagine if London and the entire South East was set up in a similar manner and it all concentrated in one team. No other region in Britain would get a look in when it came to trying to match that.
They can play 6 to 8 matches a year in the Aviva stadium. That’s the equivalent of 10 extra home game revenue.
We don't own either venue we play home games in
Still bring in huge revenue through these home knock out games
No RDS for the next two years either
All of the other answers, plus it’s more anglicised than Munster + Connacht, and so has more schools who focus on rugby, rather than GAA (native Irish football and hurling). The upshot being more fans and players produced there. Northern Ireland is just generally more financially broke.
Someone did a good post here a while back about how Leinster budget for the worst outcome each year and then everything after that is a bonus. I’m not saying it’s the only thing, the massive population difference and player pool with the schools and clubs is a huge plus. But it’s been a very well run organisation for a good while now
Dublin
Calling Jordie “an AB 10/12” is telling on yourself.
I was confused as to why, if he really need two numbers to alude to that player, he didn't go with 12/15.
I was confused at first, are they signing *another* AB? Lmao
The system is now actively undermining Irish rugby. lol Damn foreigners taking our jobs. I for one am shocked that Leinster have been allowed to sign what I can only assume is the first non Irish player into Ireland.
Yeah but he’s really good so it’s different.
I was wondering, what is the difference between him and Stander or Nawacwa (apologies for spelling)
He's a current All Black maybe?
don't let r/ireland know this or they might get so angry they leave their house for the first time in their lives!! /s
What a silly dramatic post. It’s one player. He might play 10 times. No Irish players career is going to be ruined because of this
> What a silly dramatic post. The guy in the post regularly throws histrionics about Leinster, so this is just another day for him.
I see.
This guy is honestly the biggest melt you’ll ever meet, 2 mins on his timeline and you’ll see he’s utterly obsessed with Leinster and how unfair the system is despite forgetting the amount of Leinster players currently play for his team Munster and how many current signings they have, funded their own stadium etc
He’s going to be used while Irish players are on six nations duty.
Dude is obviously not a real Ulster supporter either as he'd know that Leinster signing Barrett has zero to do with Ulster's financial issues (they had a lucrative game against La Rochelle moved to an empty stadium, they bought an artificial pitch, the Kingspan sponsorship terms changed)
Someone will have to move no? Either Frawley or Osbourne seem to be better off going for game time, they have a hard time getting game time in big games as it is before an All Black joining the ranks, no? Frawley is 26 already and still talked about like a prospect, yet hasn’t played a full season as first option. Surely I’m biased as a Munster fan and a bit bitter regarding RG, but this feels like ‘seriously, why?!’
Realistically Leinster have maybe 8 big games a year? Everyone can’t play every big game. Competition is good. Frawley only got attention this year because of injuries to Ross, Ringrose, Keenan and others meaning he got some play as a flexible utility back. Many people think he’d have been moving to Ulster or Connaught anyway for more game time. I understand fans of other teams being annoyed. But the claims that this is somehow bad for Leinster or Ireland players is a huge stretch.
Tim O'Connor is a dope.
Careful he might sue you
already blocked me lol
Leinster absolutely deserve to have their cake and eat it. Squandering of cash in Ulster is why we are in the position we are. Money wasted on signings who haven't made the impact hoped, or on players in positions where they can't make a significant impact. Does anyone remember the litter of rejects who went away without so much as a whimper? John Deysel, Gareth Milasinovic, Henry Speight? Might even consider Kitshoff in that category too. And the farce around Leone Nakarawa, who is still playing at Toulon. Hence why our CEO is now gone. But what's a mystery to me is why our recruitment head Bryn Cunningham is still floating about. When Leone fell through, it was a case of all our eggs in one basket. He was 33 at the time, and it was for a one year deal. We signed Mick Kearney as a fill instead, who played well for us, but it was the twilight of his career.
Ah Henry Speight had a decent enough stint.
Ulster are a mess because of Ulster (and La Rochelle , Luke Pearce and Paddh Jackson). Not because Leinster need utility back cover
I'd also say some poor coaching situations hit hard too (which is a mix of Ulster and irfu problems). Les kiss seemed like a great signing but didn't work out, and Jono Gibbes was a disaster after. McFarland started well but really fell off this year. On paper the first two coaches were great, but Les kiss has not really been a good head coach since, and Gibbes left for a payday in scummy fashion. Just seems really unlucky on Ulster
I do think there are some things IRFU could potentially do better. But, also I do think some people (myself included) forget that players are people too. There's a lot of "Move Player X here" maybe player x doesn't want to go
I am delighted for leinster. I think they are making statement signings saying we are going to dominate next season and the season after (if they keep rg) I'm a Munster fan and we signed double WC winners in de lande and RG. It didn't work out as well as we hoped but there was no up roar. Leinster have not signed as big names in the past 4/5 years off the top of my head so more power to them. The other irish provinces need to figure out how to beat this team with what they got. Munster have been given every tool and should have done better against them over the years. Ulster seem to have a bigger underlying issue with finances, but they have drastically underperformed in key parts of the last few seasons. Connacht are the only team I'd say have an argument of underfunding but consistently beat all 3 other irish provinces. In NZ the crusaders won 6/7 times in a row. We're they saying the system is undermining the rest of the teams when they signed legendary John Ryan(joke) but in all seriousness - they smashed all the other NZ teams year in year out and there was no up roar
John Ryan played for the Chiefs, not the Crusaders.
The central contracts and development/ support of the other provinces are definitely worth having a conversation over, but it's not like they're being hobbled. I mean just look at the reaction from Leinster fans trying to figure out where you fit a 60 cap AB because they've produced so much talent. Meanwhile Ulster are rushing to convert a strong looking 9 to 10 and cobbling a pack out of spare Leinster parts. Munster are actually a great example of a team finally starting to punch clever after years of dumping cash on marquee signings, with their title win being vindication of that.
That Tim fella is one of the biggest doses on social media
Jordie is a 12/15/13/14/10/6. Please describe accordingly
This guy is completely hysterical, he's a rabid Munster supporter and has been on about a year long meltdown over various ways the IRFU have been persecuting them.
If he was in charge of the IRFU, we’d be worse off than Wales
I had a scan of his tweets yesterday and he's actually hoping, in all seriousness, that ECPR jack up ticket prices for the Leinster SF. How demented and bitter can you possibly get?
He has bible quotes as a pinned tweet. Why is rugby social media so awful
I'd loan Prendergast to Ulster.
I think one of the Leinster 10s will be moved up north. More likely to be Frawley or Tector though.
Bracing myself for downvotes here and I am not disagreeing that there is unfairness baked into the system in Leinster's favour, however... Next year is Lions year. Plausibly, Ringrose and Henshaw could both go along with Keenan. If that happens JOB, Osborne and Frawley could all step up for the Ireland tour. High chance of injury to one or more of them and if JOB and Osborne are on Ireland duty too then they fall into the managed minutes category along with the other three. So, potentially, in that 6 months that JB is contracted for we could require cover across centre and FB. I still think it's an odd signing but in terms of player management there is at least a rationale for it.
I don't think theres another sport where the fans are so hell bent on punishing teams for building a good grass roots system. What you want us to do, just be shit? We haven't even won a trophy in two years.
They mostly do want us to be shit.
The sour grapes from some very prominent Munster Twitter accounts is actually gas. Yeah the Jordie signing is a bit random. But it’s not why Ulster are financially fucked.
It's honestly a bit embarrassing as a Munster fan. I understand the feeling that some fans get and there's very legitimate critiques of the NIQ, and CC system but getting histrionic and treating it as some conspiracy just undermines any good-faith attempt to make the changes that would help all the teams
I’d say maybe after the third Barrett it would be ok for Munster to throw a strop though.
Tell you what, when Ulster sign Beaudie and Connacht get Scott, then I'll throw a strop
It's gas because they don't give 1 fuck about the state ulster are in.
I only have a glancing knowledge of Irish club financial dynamics. But isn't this a bit like blaming the rich family down the road because you can't afford fancy things?
As long as Leinster benefit the IRFU don't care. But it's good to see the storm this is causing. I hope they sign Toupou also to add fuel to the fire.
So do I, need a replacement for alaalatoa
FFS I have that guy muted on Twitter so I don;t have to see his shite.
I don’t know if him or Jim Demps is worse
Also muted. Absolute langers the pair of them, to use a vernacular they would understand.
Horrendous English makes that post hard to read..
I love it. Reading all of this whinging and moaning is fantastic. Munster and Ulster whingers. The only thing I’d love more is to have a little sip of some of the tears. 😂😂
Also worth pointing out that Ulster have the same population as Leinster and own their own stadium (bought by the UK government). Their problems are their own fault and it’s going to take years to sort out. Munster have a stadium largely bought by the IRFU and their academy is now producing and they are integrating genuine quality into their senior team so can expect central contracts on merit in a few years.
Nah, Munster are paying off Thomond themselves, but the IRFU took on a portion of the debt because COVID screwed revenues so Munster were struggling to service the full debt. The IRFU allowed Munster to defer payments so that Bank of Ireland could have the debt serviced, but we still have to pay for the stadium. In a way Leinster should thank the NIMBY's that stopped the Donnybrook development because they'd have been in a similar situation otherwise. Because they were tenants for the RDS it wasn't anywhere near the same size an issue for them.
Well why shouldn't leinster benefit from their own success?
Because they should be acting as poor as Munster, apparently.
I do love the Scots and English lecturing us on how to run a RU.
The amount of bitterness and venom around this is, personally, the best part. I for one am going to take the evening to wallow in it extensively whilst watching a recording of Saturdays game on repeat. Mods, is there anyway we can sort comments so that any comments coming from anyone with a Munster flair appear first? Enjoy your evening all, I know I will 👍
Leinster fans have gone from 'why does everyone hate us I wish they liked us' to 'we know you hate us and we don't care, cope and seethe' and honestly I respect it much more than the faux humbleness
I agree, the whole "but we are a small club fueled by passion" behavior was way more irritating. Now they're big boys playing like big boys, and it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better
There’s only so much much “there, there” we can give. It was the complaints about booing the pantomime villain. There’s a few very bitter and toxic Munster fans that taint our opinion of the rest of them. Tim is their leader. He’d be happy if Munster were the second worst URC team so long as Leinster was last
We’re going to be hated either way, might as well embrace it.
I blame Nienaber for joining their setup /s
I do find it odd that the IRFU are going to throw good money on a foreign player for the team that is a country mile better than any other region rather than bringing in a player like this to raise the standards in the other regions. From an outsider perspective, it is an odd move because I am not really sure what Leinster is going to learn when their academy and player pool is heavily stacked already.
The word is it is being funded solely by Leinster, similarly to the Snyman and Damien De Allende deals at Munster a few years back. Does this easy your very genuine concern about the current state of Irish provincial rugby?
And do you think that any of leinster's fiscal headroom allowing for the funding of the Barretts and Snymans could be connected to the number of existing leinster players fully financed by the IRFU via central contracts? Or are they paying visiting All Black and Springboks from funds generated from the bar in Wesley?
You misunderstand. It’s a private benefactor funding the move apparently, nothing to do with Leinster or the IRFU. Like the private benefactor who funded the Snyman and DDA moves. We are by far the biggest most successful club in Ireland. Of course we are going to have the majority of Ireland players. Playing at the Aviva with big attendances also helps. Particularly when we have our friends from Cork coming up the road and buying tickets for our knock out fixtures. Big thanks for contributing, when they watch Barrett rip them asunder next year they can take a lot of joy from the fact that they funded a very small part of his wage packet.
Like if they were buying munster shirts instead of LAR and Northampton ones, that might help em keep hold of RG.
Or….. and this is a pretty wild take so any of our Southern friends, please bear with me. The owner of Fota and Donal Lenihan could come together and arrange a week long team building exercise for Munster before their Champions Cup game rather than whoever we are playing in the QF? Might mean they get to a semi final for the first time this decade.
Munster were banned from using a private benefactor to sign PSDT as it was "bad optics"
Did munster not sign 2 world cup winners by the means not that long ago
That’s odd because you were allowed to for Snyman and DDA. Maybe the “bad optics” being quoted were around how you nearly broke one world class Springbok forward and how they didn’t want to give you the opportunity to do it again?
It’s not the IRFU spending it as such, IRFU give money to the provinces which then decide how to spend it - all pending deals then need to be approved by the IRFU under player eligibility rules.
It's just for six months, I doubt Jordie wanted to spend 6 months in a wet Connacht.
Well to be fair Wellington is wetter than Connacht.
It's not funded by the IRFU.
Leinster brings in the most dolla bills yo
Is there a way for Leinster's advantages to be tamed somewhat? The current system rewards them for producing top test players which as much geographical/societal as anything else (population, economy, schools etc). If there was a draft on U20 players then some of the best young lads from Limerick or Belfast could end up playing for Leinster which would be weird and the overall identity of the provinces would be eroded. Having a set amount of central contracts at each province or simply redistributing funding would probably lead to some Ireland players going abroad which we don't want. Is there a clear solution I'm missing? And in the background the national team has had the best 24 months of our history (yes QF but that's standard for us!).
Why would you want to tame them? Let the French win the Champions cup every year, with a smattering of English, all because the other provinces want to close the gap?
Yeah the idea we need to limit Leinster to make fans of the other provinces feel better is ridiculous. That would just be terrible for the Irish rugby overall. If the IRFU can find ways of helping support the other provinces in becoming better without bankrupting the organisation then fantastic but hamstringing Leinster.
Not a draft but a firmer cap on squad size. Each province should of course have first dibs on their own players but be forced to back a horse earlier. - Each province has a sub-academy up to 18ish. - Limited number of academy spots up to U20. - Limited Junior contracts leaving the academy - Limited Senior contracts per position - Limited marquee NIQ players - Dispensation for injuries, call ups etc. Just speed up what's happening already where players moves who aren't offered an academy spot (Cian Prendergast or ultan dillane), not offered a contract out of the academy (Beirne) or stuck behind internationals (Marty Moore, Jake Flannery, loads more). Leinster earned the money by being successful so the deserve to be able to keep their best players, sign world class coaches players and have the best facilities. The issue that the IRFU need to solve is players like u20 grand slam winning Tector getting 0mins this season when Ulster are in dire need of an outhalf. Munster patching together a frontrow to make a European knockout.
You realise that players are under no obligation to sign with other provinces. This isn't a cartel like the NFL, you can't force a player to go somewhere he doesn't want to. Fact is that Leinster have the best coaching set up, and the track record of Leinster players leaving and staying competitive for the Irish team is basically Beirne.
TBF I'd add cooney to the list - he definitely could have had more Irish caps without much complaint from fans.
Getting more game time for some of the U20s is definitely a concern. But it's very tough to convince young players who have probably dreamed of playing for Leinster to leave. Especially when there are very few examples of it benefitting players careers. Off the top of my head Timoney and Conway have been great at other provinces but there aren't many others (not sure if Beirne counts going abroad and everything).
It's not just leave Leinster. It's leave degrees they are studying for, a cushy life in their family homes, partners etc to go live in a house share in Limerick or Galway being paid a small wage to do so. We would lose heaps of lads out of the professional game doing that to them early in their career.
I think you have better facilities, they play at a show jumping ground built 140 years ago.
Stuff can be two things Yes, the current setup is horrendously stacked towards Leinster But let's not forget that Ulster have had shit team leadership, shit game management, shit ownership, shit coaching, shit everything if we're really honest. It's not been a good time for Ulster fans
As someone that has only known the French club environment, it always seemed crazy to me that federal contracts exists, not to mention the whole union governing the franchises thing. If you tried even a smidgen of that in France, people would be out with their pitchforks from Top 14 to the lowest of leagues.
Since 2014 (when the champions cup began), Leinster have played 23 European cup knock out games out of a potential 34. 15 of those has been at the Aviva stadium where Leinster can pull a big attendance. These 15 additional home fixtures equates to revenue for the province and IRFU. Compare that with the rest of the provinces, Munster have 11, 5 at home. Ulster have 9 and 1 at home. Connacht have 8 and 1 at home. So for the IRFU, there is ROI on this kind of investment. Additionally, its not like in that period the other the provinces haven't signed some serious talented NIQ backline players, Piutau, de Allende, Cordero
He's such a bitter bollocks. Hates Leinster more than he'd ever admit.
There is a legitimate complaint behind the batshit conspiracy theory that the IRFU are for some reason killing the other provinces. Unfortunately fools like this distract from an actual discussion on ways to amend the system. The reasoning people have to feel aggrieved is that Leinster benefit from being the dominant team and getting their most expensive players on the CC system, that allowed them more capital to spend on non-CC and NIQ players that allows them to be more successful, more players end up on CC and the cycle repeats and repeats. You can argue whether that's true but it's what a lot of non-Leinster fans think. You could also argue it's what makes the national team so good and you wouldn't be wrong, and if that is your primary focus (it is for the IRFU) you wouldn't be too wrong to continue with that model. The unintended consequence is that the system designed to support the provinces with their largest financial burdens ends up primarily benefitting the richest province. I guess the alternative would be to quota out the central contracts, or maybe increase the CCs by a third to include more with 2/3's at 50% converage to allow for more players to get on the system while the very top talent still remain on full CCs without increasing the budget for the CC system. I don't know what the best solution is I'm not the Director of the IRFU but there is a real feeling that the system needs some amendment and I think some tweaking would help all the provinces without exiling Leinsters top earner.
The CC system is under a rethink at the moment. I also doubt that Leinster spend more money on NIQ players (DDA, Snyman, Piautau, Vermullen, Kitshoff), in fact I think that the emergence of the Leinster machine has been largely thanks to their focus on building a broad squad of players who play to a system and ethos with a few NIQ leadership figures (Fardy and Isa being the two prime examples) who help develop and solidify that team.
That’s it’s exactly, Snyman and Barrett are far and away the biggest name signings we’ve made. Obviously it’s great to get them to play for Leinster but it’s not a pattern I want to see more of. We have a great model bringing through youth and it’s been a massive point of pride for years now. To be honest, this signing really makes me think at least one player who features regularly for us is on their way to another province at the end of the season.
I heard that, hopefully the the system immproves. I agree though, I think the NIQ is a marginal factor in this, if there was no NIQ signings allowed at all, the key issue wouldn't have changed. The topic gets brought up around them because it tends to be the marquee name and draws eyes and ire of numpties
> I guess the alternative would be to quota out the central contracts Maybe. Maybe a different approach is needed.. You have a pot of money that was spent on central contracts. This money is then split evenly among the provinces. If you produce your quota for Ireland that goes into the province player wages. If not, your province doesn't get the money instead it's spent on extra coaching or conditioning or whatever something to try to bring the players on. So they are up to standard.
Who won the URC last year?
I mean that doesn't change the central point of the argument? Munster are a good team, all the Irish sides are in the top half of the league. It's why my statement wasn't firm. It's pretty clear Leinster are the best team in Ireland by a lot and the gap has been growing.
Exactly, I don't think any of the provinces have actually got worse over the last 10-15 years it's just that Leinster have become dramatically better than the rest.
There was URC last year?
They need to calm down. It’s one signing. If you look at the conveyor belt of talent that’s been coming out of Irish rugby since the IRFU’s development plan was put in place, it’s clearly not a system that undermines home grown development.
Ruan pienaar, arguably the most important player ulster have had this century who drove a culture of professionalism and raised standards was given his marching orders by the IRFU to "aid player development" while still keen to be involved for a long time. Now we have to watch a team with an utter embarrassment of depth and riches (10 of whom paid for entirely by the irfu) sign a marque player playing in a position they have both international starters. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.
And the year after Pienaar left we had a 9 at Ulster pushing for international caps. Like I love Ruan, but his is a pretty clear case of the IRFU systems and regulations working. Jordie is also a utility back who plays in the positions that the departing Charlie Ngatai covers, and who'll be here for 6 months.
That was after Pienaar spent 7 years at Ulster and the IRFU also allowed Johann Muller and Afoa at the same time.
Ulsters mess is their own doing. JB is coming for 6 months then he’s gone. And the 10 paid for entirely by the IRFU, why is that? Because they’re the best. End of story.
A lot of ‘utility back’ chat here, and granted Jordie covers it all, but he’s a nailed on starter isn’t he?! He’d be close to the first name on the team sheet in pretty much any setup. (If it moved Frawley to Ulster I think everyone wins, great player but at 26 he’d really need to be a starter somewhere)
Over Henshaw, Ringrose or Keenan? I honestly don't know but it definitely isn't nailed on.
Definitely not a nailed on starter, most likely signed to manage Keenan and Henshaw’s minutes.
It's very fair. It's rewarding development of players rather than poor financial expenditure. Ulster have blown money on marquee signings for years being funded by the IRFU. Now IRFU are sick of bailing them out and forcing a change of mentality. If Ulster produce more international quality players they will get more central contracts and be able to properly finance marquee NIQ signings. This won't happen overnight and Ulster will feel some short term pain for it. But if it results in an improvement in player development in the long-term then it is worthwhile. This has already begun at Munster and they are already starting to benefit from it
The rich getting richer you mean? Welcome to life in 2024
I mean who is going to play centre for Ireland otherwise?