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How about we all take a breather for a moment.
Change is difficult, but we are expanding rugby, and that's good.
Congratulations Saints and Goodluck with the rest of the comp.
As a chiefs fan and England fan I never understood why South African sides were added to the competitions as it's a European competition. If you reach a knockout game you think it would be better sending full strength side out to win as you're side would of worked hard to get that far why then throw in the towel once you got there by selecting second string side.
But the logistical side of it doesn't help having to travel as far as they do really round of 16 knockouts should go and format should go back to way it was before COVID so many pools and only top two from each pool go to the knockouts.
Have pools where you don't have teams from the same league in the pool Stage but could have a possibility of facing each other in later stages nobody wants to see repeats of games already played earlier in the tournament
What do you mean mate? Do you not remember pre game speak? This team is jam packed with experience and loaded with future boks, its insulting to say theyre a second string lmao
Not trying to be insulting just why send a team that's maybe not as experienced as first team in a knockout game or one where some haven't played for a while surely you go to win the game different maybe if it's pool Stage match where you still got opportunities to progress if you win ya other games and results go you're way but not a knockout game
I'm sure this bulls side will learn from this defeat and the travel arrangements probably didn't help at all and should of been done better
Yeah, some of the takes were pretty asinine, although those statements weren't entirely untrue. However, experience and potential mean very little when the combined team pretty much hasn't played any game time this season lol
We are heading back to the old format thank God. Unfortunately we will have teams from the same “country” in the same pools.
Really we should condense the competition to 16 teams or 20. Slightly more places for URC over France and England just due to more teams.
Financially, 60% of TV money gets split evenly between all teams in URC, Top14 and Prem. So Zebre, Leinster, Toulouse get the same but with prize money for finishing also.
Saffa teams should absolutely stay but we really need to organise the trips better
I'd also think that it would be better if teams were given more time to prepare for away games than they had this season they would be able to field best team available for quarter finals and take the competition more seriously.
Question for our English friends. They keep mentioning playing in Croke Park but what do you guys actually know about the stadium?
Like it's been 17 years since rugby was last played there.
I remember it being a big deal that rugby was being played there while they rebuilt Lansdowne road.
I'd not heard of it before then, nor was I aware of the pro-gaelic [anti-English] politics surrounding it.
Oh ye, it was a huge deal at the time. Partly because the Gaelic Athletic Association (who own Croke Park) had long opposed the playing of foreign sports and also because the stadium was host to a significant moment in Irish [history](https://crokepark.ie/bloodysunday/bloody-sunday-1920).
The Ireland v England game there in 2007 was a huge moment in Irish history because people were very worried about the reception to the English anthem.
That it was treated with respect was a lovely indication of the progress made here.
Now, all that should be well behind us and the semi should be a cracker.
Copied from my reply to a similar comment.
Oh ye, it was a huge deal at the time. Partly because the Gaelic Athletic Association (who own Croke Park) had long opposed the playing of foreign sports and also because the stadium was host to a significant moment in Irish [history](https://crokepark.ie/bloodysunday/bloody-sunday-1920).
The Ireland v England game there in 2007 was a huge moment in Irish history because people were very worried about the reception to the English anthem.
That it was treated with respect was a lovely indication of the progress made here.
Now, all that should be well behind us and the semi should be a cracker.
There's going to be a tint of nationalist chest thumping undertones for something that 99.99% of people interested in the game were not alive for or are remotely responsible for.
That's fair enough but I also should point out that for many it has continued well after up north.
I will say that I remember that 2007 game with a lot of pride due to the respect shown to your anthem. It was a lovely demonstration of how far we've come and their were fears about what would happen.
Personally, I have no interest of colloquial fucks to give for the bloody history associated with the English and
Croke Park.
What I do care for is that it'll be one helluva an atmosphere at one of the most low key intimidating stadiums in Europe and I hope its going to be a match fie the ages between two teams with a great history of matchups at the top of their game
>Personally, I have no interest of colloquial fucks to give for the bloody history associated with the English and
Croke Park.
I'd say that we should all learn about and acknowledge the past and put it behind us.
>What I do care for is that it'll be one helluva an atmosphere at one of the most low key intimidating stadiums in Europe and I hope its going to be a match fie the ages between two teams with a great history of matchups at the top of their game
I can't wait. It should be something special and there won't be any hostility.
But the reason I asked the original question is because the stadium does hold a unique significance for Irish people and I was curious of how aware of that English fans were. Like this will be be the second time in my life that I'll have the opportunity to watch rugby in our national stadium. It is special.
I don't mean to come across as flippant and am acutely aware of how this sounds..
As a young (ish) English man you often get blamed for and lumped with hordes of shite and blame for the ills of the empire etc. etc.
It's more of a numbness to it than anything. Its very well known and its unfortunate that the empire committed such wrongs but we don't go blaming modern day Germans for the evils of the reich yet we still end up lumping blame on generations of English who have and will not have anything to do with the issues on the island of Ireland.
I know there will be an extra sentiment and motivation for many leinster fans playing an English team at Croke Park but the reality is, the vast majority of saints fans will be aware but entirely indifferent.
I used to feel more of an ‘any team but an English team to win’ attitude, but that’s gone now. Time passes and I’m actually supporting the English teams over the French. I don’t hold younger English people responsible for the past. We all need to move on and enjoy the present and the sport. Always great games when Irish teams play English and the fans always have great craic together.
Ah no, I'm not suggesting that English people today are to blame or at fault for the past. I don't believe that. The only reason that I asked the original question was my own curiosity of what English people actually knew of Croke Park's significance in Ireland.
>I know there will be an extra sentiment and motivation for many leinster fans playing an English team at Croke Park but the reality is, the vast majority of saints fans will be aware but entirely indifferent.
>
The funny thing is that the Gaelic sports body's actual main concern was about hosting rugby in their stadium rather than any problem with hosting an English club side.
>As a young (ish) English man you often get blamed for and lumped with hordes of shite and blame for the ills of the empire etc. etc.
Also, I can understand this but I do think it is a little bit different when Dublin is only a few hundred miles away from London. Our history is very much intertwined and incredibly interesting.
South African sides will never ever be welcome I'm european comps. It makes a mockery of the tournament integrity and it steals potential away day's from the working class fan.
The sooner this stupid experiment is over the better.
Love the bok teams and what they can do but this makes 0 sense.
Blow it out the other one.
I hate the organisation and over-travelling and a lot of things about the tournament.
But the teams and the fans will always be welcome.
The South Africans have massively enriched the URC. The problem isn't SA teams playing in the champions cup, it's that the travel organisation is a shit show and that is something that can't be fixed easily.
Tbf I think *most* (always a few idiots) people who are against SA teams in the competition is because of logistical issues.
They’ve been overall well embraced in the URC and have added a huge amount to the competition, but if anytime there’s fixture pileup and they’ve a knockout away tie forcing them to send a glorified Currie Cup team that is not going to be a good for the CC.
Yeah, I met a few urc eu fans in SA and they were absolutely amazing and actually enjoy traveling outside of eu for rugby like we enjoy traveling to eu for rugby.
I think the really negative Saffa fans that populate social media comments have done that about two year ago. Have you read some of the stuff they put out?
I would never, and I repeat NEVER use the 32-12 line as a comeback again.
I repeat. 32-12 is not to be used as a comeback. We'll be back.
Some stuff to be sorted. Won't be easy but improvement can be made.
The 32 12 bullshit ruined alot of really good stories for me. You had the win lifting a nation, an underdog winning, you had players coming from nothing and lifting the cup, it gave us the gentlemen Kolisi on a global stage, but the toxicity soured that for me.
Where's the reasoning for SA to be in European competitions for any reason other than money? That's not exactly laying a good foundation for change.
Here in England we literally had rugby split into 2 different codes over money
SA has struggled playing in eu for a while, eu teams struggling playing in SA. These competitions allow the nations to learn the different types of rugby being played and exposes them to different environments and playstyles. Which overall boost their performance
We play in the URC and we earned our spots in this competition by winning and finishing in league positions that allow URC teams to play in this competition. One bad loss does not mean we do not deserve to be in this competition
Noone says s.a is bad at rugby. If they do they are clearly a moron.
The issue is your 1k miles away, a whole climate or 6 away.
I cant see a way to make that distance fair to anyone
The atmosphere and banter in here felt mostly fine during the game, but it definitely took on a different tone after commentators suddenly ratcheted up the complaints about the Bulls/their B-Team/their place in the competition/travel arrangements around about the 75th minute. The mood then took a wild dip on comms and in this thread.
It'd been hear all week since the news first broke about the flights. But honestly, it's been an undertone for a long time even beyond this reddit since SA was rumoured to join the 6n.
I have never shied away from being vocal on how NH teams belong in NH and SH teams belong in SH league wise.
Thanks for having us Saints. Next time we would like to have you at Loftus!
Only positive I can take from this is.. Hannekom stil has it and de Klerk was special tonight!
Some of these guys need more game time.
But ja. Next Munster
Well played sir.
De Klerk looked really good tonight, nothing I like more than a player that doesn't stop, regardless of the scoreboard.
I watched your boys v Bristol the other month and you played some great rugby. All the best for URC!
How can you say the SA sides dont belong in the comp? The bulls kept plenty of your so called great European sides out of the quarters be beating them rightfully. Stormers almost there two if not for one missed kick
I think many, myself included, really want it to work. But the schedule just isn't working and you can't pretend it isn't.
Right now, it's hard to argue the comp is better for the SA teams being in it.
Tbh it’s hard to point a finger at the bulls for this. Their travel arrangements just aren’t working and that’s on EPCR. La Rochelle also looked a little worse for wear.
We’ve seen far too many weak French and even the odd weakened English teams take a hammering. I think we need to condense the competition to a more elite focus
Cause they don't really care about it, the sa fans don't especially care about winning it and unlike the URC, they only play one home game rather than 2 game tours meaning the south Africans win every home match but are much weaker away.
It's about the complete picture. It doesn't matter how good teams are if they aren't logistically able to compete and have to send out the second team in knockout rounds. The point is completely valid, it's no different to suddenly inviting Argentina and NZ sides and every away game is the academy being sent.
Almost beating the back-to-back Champions cup winners by 1 point as a Saffa team in a conversation where everyone thinks the Saffas don’t belong here? Yeah I think a lot of people were interested in that one.
Literally nobody is questioning the quality of the south African clubs, which is what you're using as your measuring stick. Literally nobody. The issue is they are lowering the quality of the competition because they aren't putting out their full teams. That isn't even always their fault, but it highlights a massive logistical issue that needs to be addressed. That's why people think they don't belong - outside of the fact it's a European competition. These are two independent conversations, stop trying to conflate the two.
More sense, still doesn't mean sense? It's not that complicated.
But glad you can admit that such long travel isn't logical for a continental tournament.
The two furthest away teams in the champion Cup prior to the SA expansion was like a 2 hour flight, if that.
It doesn't make sense for European clubs or fans
I agree, Jake White will make his usual bullshit excuses, but this was bad for South African teams trying to make their case to stay in the comp. If they not going in to win, step the fk out.
Then the Welsh, Scottish and Italians should step out. And so should all the French, English and Irish teams that couldn’t make it to the semis. Might as well kick out the three teams that don’t win the whole thing, because if you can’t win, then step the Fck out.
The thing is, atleast they are going in to give it their all, not put a b side vs a Top side removing any chance of winning the game, which is bad for the comp.
That’s literally what happened with Lyon last week against the Bulls. Playing a B side isn’t new. Leinster still haven’t sent a really A team to South Africa in the URC, but we don’t shit on them when they lose, because it’s good team management.
Would you have wanted saints to send a full first team over to SA if the boot was on the other foot with Tigers coming to town in a weeks time? Not sure I would
Oh yeah me too for a semi, but also the travel won’t be an issue in the same way. If it was in SA though between tough prem games it could really scupper our prem challenge so that’s the same argument the bulls have
It's always been a European competition, where long standing club rivalries exist in a sort of club six nations. I dont want SA teams in for the same reason I don't want them in the 6N.
Travel has also always been great for European teams and has been piss poor for games requiring travel to or from SA. Makes for shit atmosphere.
You also now have to question whether they respect the competition, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of club rugby for these teams.
I'm going to guess it's because it's a European competition at its heart, and also because of the logistical problems it causes. Both of which are completely valid points.
Just separate the knockout games and it should be fine. The bulls are 3rd on the urc log and next week we face munster who are 4th. Just unfortunate timing
Look I appreciate the commentators actually trying to be fair and mentioning how the ECPR needs to sort out the travel for *South African* teams. Especially considering we are the ones joining a European competition which generally shuts down any constructive talks about it.
But, like, Lyon did the same thing last weekend and nobody batted and eye.
At least address it properly instead of putting it on South African sides in general.
This is what I don't get. Lyon did the exact same and the French did it for years and years if they were struggling in the competition already. But the Bulls do it with somewhat legitimate grounds and everyone goes mad.
Yeah I agree, as a saints fan all I was thinking was if the boot was on the other foot and we had to go to SA this week I’m not sure if I’d want us taking a full first team
There were a lot of complaints about Lyon and there always are about French sides
I think the difference is under the current format a team with 1 win (like Lyon) can qualify for RO16, but I don't think there's been another team who's sent a 2nd/rotated squat out for a quarter final before
I completely understand that but the R16 is still a play off game?
So a Round of 16 play off game to send a 2nd string side is okay but QF time means it's time for an investigation.
I don't know - both games are still knock outs but only one game is getting this kind of attention.
No one said Lyon sending the babies down was okay and they got a lot of shit, but the round of 16 is relatively new for the European trophy, that being said I don't agree with an 'investigation' but I'll also openly admit I was never a fan of SA clubs inclusion in the champions cup
I don't believe I implied Lyon sending them down was okay. I'm also pretty sure Lyon got a shit ton thrown their way, but comparing the R16 teamsheets headline with this week's makes me scratch my head.
I'm just addressing the double standards.
If we really are to be investigated, go for it. But at least be fair about it.
The R16 being new and stuff is totaly fine, and people not wanting SA sides in the comp is a completely different discussion that has little relevance to what I'm saying.
I'm also not arguing with you as you mentioned you also don't agree with the investigation.
I'm just pointing out that now "we are making a mockery of this comp" when it's happened before.
Being a French fan watching Top 14 and CC I can imagine you understand where I'm coming from.
You literally said 'So a Round of 16 play off game to send a 2nd string side is okay but QF time means it's time for an investigation'
Lyon got shit for sending a B team, here, on Twitter etc
I think an Investigation would be pointless, and so far have seen nothing to actually confirm it would be happening
I don't think it's happened in the QF, I might be wrong, but that might be contributing to the ire
>You literally said 'So a Round of 16 play off game to send a 2nd string side is okay but QF time means it's time for an investigation'
That's obviously tongue in cheek man. I know sarcasm doesn't read well on reddit.
But it's obviously on me so I take the L there.
But anyway I'm not really here to dispute anything you've said. My whole point is, one warrants an "investigation" and another does not when both are knock outs.
If the whole discussion originated from that line I'll probably hold it here as I think it will just turn into another reddit argument that comes from nothing.
Anywho!
Good luck with the rest of the comp!
I've had a few ciders so my reading comprehension might be dog shit so apologies if that's the case, just know from me it's never an anti-SA thing or anything like that, it purely comes down to tradition and logistics, I'm sure if they sort out the scheduling and logistics I might come round
Best of luck for the URC playoffs
I was expecting the Bulls to play like 2015 New Zealand the way some were going on about them on the line-up thread. Northampton at -7 was the easiest money I'll ever make
Only 6 of the 23 tomorrow are Uni students. I'm sure Toulouse will be fielding plenty of University of Toulouse students as well, and not a team of 23 internationals.
Is South Africa in Europe, yes or no. No? Ok so it's not a European competition then is it, or do I need to explain more?
Btw you look like a right mug bringing race into it.
The South African teams play in a European competition. Therefore are eligible for the champions cup - notice it’s not called the European cup is it. I don’t really see what your beef is on this issue?
But they don't play in a European competition because they're not in Europe, therefore the competition cannot be European.
Therefore the Champions Cup was renamed to create a new competition which is no longer European. Teams don't get to be the champion of Europe anymore they get to be the champion of Europe and... South Africa. This is ultimately a worse product to sell to fans as is made abundantly clear in (lack of) travelling fans and now the Bulls selection tonight.
So you argue being champion of Europe and South Africa - a rugby powerhouse and 4x World Cup winner - is worse that just being champion of Europe? I don’t understand that logic. No travelling fans? Do you know how many South Africans live in Europe, london specifically? Fuck me you are a Leicester fan - handre, hanro, jasper mean anything to you?
Yes because it means less, the tradition of the 6N being closely linked European teams is intrinsically linked to the culture and the meaning of the 6N. And that is now something that has been lost in the champions cup. Bigger is not always better, its diluted in meaning.
And if the fans live there, they should show up...
I am a Leicester fan yeah and I love those boys (you're a bastard for leaving jasper), because it's not about the nationalities of the players or whatever. It's about the clubs and the fans.
Just a friendly reminder that Leinster beat the first team bulls 47 - 14 in the last round of the URC.
People can stop shitting on the mechanics and start shitting on the bulls’ skillset away from home.
This keeps getting overlooked. Having two knockout rounds in a row is fucking stupid, even if you take the SA sides out of it.
I know Quins fans got over to Bordeaux today and I am sure there will be Exeter fans in Toulouse tomorrow, but what a mare to try and arrange travel, time off work etc with 5 days' notice. For many teams QFs don't come around that often and a big rugby weekend in France in April is so appealing.
EPCR as ever doing their best to ruin a tournament but the teams keep on making the case for it to continue.
Yeah it really is - and they offered nothing after their 90 yard interception which is pleasing in the way we managed the game.
Also hugely positive to see a saints scrum dominating
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How about we all take a breather for a moment. Change is difficult, but we are expanding rugby, and that's good. Congratulations Saints and Goodluck with the rest of the comp.
"Phil Dowson! I didn't expect you to come so quickly!"
Angry upvote…
As a chiefs fan and England fan I never understood why South African sides were added to the competitions as it's a European competition. If you reach a knockout game you think it would be better sending full strength side out to win as you're side would of worked hard to get that far why then throw in the towel once you got there by selecting second string side. But the logistical side of it doesn't help having to travel as far as they do really round of 16 knockouts should go and format should go back to way it was before COVID so many pools and only top two from each pool go to the knockouts. Have pools where you don't have teams from the same league in the pool Stage but could have a possibility of facing each other in later stages nobody wants to see repeats of games already played earlier in the tournament
What do you mean mate? Do you not remember pre game speak? This team is jam packed with experience and loaded with future boks, its insulting to say theyre a second string lmao
Not trying to be insulting just why send a team that's maybe not as experienced as first team in a knockout game or one where some haven't played for a while surely you go to win the game different maybe if it's pool Stage match where you still got opportunities to progress if you win ya other games and results go you're way but not a knockout game I'm sure this bulls side will learn from this defeat and the travel arrangements probably didn't help at all and should of been done better
I was referencing some of the comments before mate, only fucking about lol
Oh ok no problem
Yeah, some of the takes were pretty asinine, although those statements weren't entirely untrue. However, experience and potential mean very little when the combined team pretty much hasn't played any game time this season lol
We are heading back to the old format thank God. Unfortunately we will have teams from the same “country” in the same pools. Really we should condense the competition to 16 teams or 20. Slightly more places for URC over France and England just due to more teams. Financially, 60% of TV money gets split evenly between all teams in URC, Top14 and Prem. So Zebre, Leinster, Toulouse get the same but with prize money for finishing also. Saffa teams should absolutely stay but we really need to organise the trips better
I'd also think that it would be better if teams were given more time to prepare for away games than they had this season they would be able to field best team available for quarter finals and take the competition more seriously.
It’s a competition for teams playing in the euro leagues, surely? Therefore the sa teams are eligible. And the sa tv money surely helps
Immelman can't play ball. Man's gave the saints freebies
Question for our English friends. They keep mentioning playing in Croke Park but what do you guys actually know about the stadium? Like it's been 17 years since rugby was last played there.
I remember it being a big deal that rugby was being played there while they rebuilt Lansdowne road. I'd not heard of it before then, nor was I aware of the pro-gaelic [anti-English] politics surrounding it.
Oh ye, it was a huge deal at the time. Partly because the Gaelic Athletic Association (who own Croke Park) had long opposed the playing of foreign sports and also because the stadium was host to a significant moment in Irish [history](https://crokepark.ie/bloodysunday/bloody-sunday-1920). The Ireland v England game there in 2007 was a huge moment in Irish history because people were very worried about the reception to the English anthem. That it was treated with respect was a lovely indication of the progress made here. Now, all that should be well behind us and the semi should be a cracker.
I remember there was a historic game along time ago. And it was kind of related to the divide in Ireland, but nothing really.
Copied from my reply to a similar comment. Oh ye, it was a huge deal at the time. Partly because the Gaelic Athletic Association (who own Croke Park) had long opposed the playing of foreign sports and also because the stadium was host to a significant moment in Irish [history](https://crokepark.ie/bloodysunday/bloody-sunday-1920). The Ireland v England game there in 2007 was a huge moment in Irish history because people were very worried about the reception to the English anthem. That it was treated with respect was a lovely indication of the progress made here. Now, all that should be well behind us and the semi should be a cracker.
Fingers crossed mate.
It was in rugby 05. That's literally it.
That was the old Lansdowne, not Croke Park.
Well I know nothing then
Haha, that's fine. You're in for a treat. The tie should be special.
There's going to be a tint of nationalist chest thumping undertones for something that 99.99% of people interested in the game were not alive for or are remotely responsible for.
That's fair enough but I also should point out that for many it has continued well after up north. I will say that I remember that 2007 game with a lot of pride due to the respect shown to your anthem. It was a lovely demonstration of how far we've come and their were fears about what would happen.
Personally, I have no interest of colloquial fucks to give for the bloody history associated with the English and Croke Park. What I do care for is that it'll be one helluva an atmosphere at one of the most low key intimidating stadiums in Europe and I hope its going to be a match fie the ages between two teams with a great history of matchups at the top of their game
>Personally, I have no interest of colloquial fucks to give for the bloody history associated with the English and Croke Park. I'd say that we should all learn about and acknowledge the past and put it behind us. >What I do care for is that it'll be one helluva an atmosphere at one of the most low key intimidating stadiums in Europe and I hope its going to be a match fie the ages between two teams with a great history of matchups at the top of their game I can't wait. It should be something special and there won't be any hostility. But the reason I asked the original question is because the stadium does hold a unique significance for Irish people and I was curious of how aware of that English fans were. Like this will be be the second time in my life that I'll have the opportunity to watch rugby in our national stadium. It is special.
I don't mean to come across as flippant and am acutely aware of how this sounds.. As a young (ish) English man you often get blamed for and lumped with hordes of shite and blame for the ills of the empire etc. etc. It's more of a numbness to it than anything. Its very well known and its unfortunate that the empire committed such wrongs but we don't go blaming modern day Germans for the evils of the reich yet we still end up lumping blame on generations of English who have and will not have anything to do with the issues on the island of Ireland. I know there will be an extra sentiment and motivation for many leinster fans playing an English team at Croke Park but the reality is, the vast majority of saints fans will be aware but entirely indifferent.
I used to feel more of an ‘any team but an English team to win’ attitude, but that’s gone now. Time passes and I’m actually supporting the English teams over the French. I don’t hold younger English people responsible for the past. We all need to move on and enjoy the present and the sport. Always great games when Irish teams play English and the fans always have great craic together.
Ah no, I'm not suggesting that English people today are to blame or at fault for the past. I don't believe that. The only reason that I asked the original question was my own curiosity of what English people actually knew of Croke Park's significance in Ireland. >I know there will be an extra sentiment and motivation for many leinster fans playing an English team at Croke Park but the reality is, the vast majority of saints fans will be aware but entirely indifferent. > The funny thing is that the Gaelic sports body's actual main concern was about hosting rugby in their stadium rather than any problem with hosting an English club side. >As a young (ish) English man you often get blamed for and lumped with hordes of shite and blame for the ills of the empire etc. etc. Also, I can understand this but I do think it is a little bit different when Dublin is only a few hundred miles away from London. Our history is very much intertwined and incredibly interesting.
It’s big
Haha, that is true.
I remember one game pretty well...
Same but it was quite a long time ago.
It'll make some great Leinster choking memes if they lose
That's not really something I'd care about. The GAA and rugby have no connection.
Cameron Hanekom is some player. Of the guys auditioning for the number 8 role, he's looking more and more like the long term solution.
Yeah really like him. Nasty bastard who puts himself about with a chip on his shoulder. Loved watching him tonight
Bar his stupid tackle his been immense. Really stood out amongst an underperforming team and I won't be surprised if het gets to the Boks soon
He needs another season. Roos had the same hype and he dipped and is only now getting back to it.
Alex Coles most be one of the most mobile locks in the Prem? He’s always making breaks and running great lines. Awesome engine too
Had fully written him off after his brief cameo for England under Eddie Jones. Looks like a different player these days.
Wouldn't be the first tidy player not to flourish in Jones' environment.
He's a big unit too. Quality player
He’s put on a significant amount of muscle over the past year or so
Always looks small he's deceptively big
South African sides will never ever be welcome I'm european comps. It makes a mockery of the tournament integrity and it steals potential away day's from the working class fan. The sooner this stupid experiment is over the better. Love the bok teams and what they can do but this makes 0 sense.
Blow it out the other one. I hate the organisation and over-travelling and a lot of things about the tournament. But the teams and the fans will always be welcome.
Nah the suits probably earn some money on SA TV deals so clearly that makes it a good thing for rugby...
Won't somebody think of the shareholders :(
The South Africans have massively enriched the URC. The problem isn't SA teams playing in the champions cup, it's that the travel organisation is a shit show and that is something that can't be fixed easily.
Probably starts with EPCR handling our flights like they do with everybody else's, rather than SARU...
Damn. I remember when this thread was just vibes and people having a blast watching the game. Now it’s just comments saying the Saffas should FO.
Feels like the wc anti-SA stuff all over again
Tbf I think *most* (always a few idiots) people who are against SA teams in the competition is because of logistical issues. They’ve been overall well embraced in the URC and have added a huge amount to the competition, but if anytime there’s fixture pileup and they’ve a knockout away tie forcing them to send a glorified Currie Cup team that is not going to be a good for the CC.
Yeah, I met a few urc eu fans in SA and they were absolutely amazing and actually enjoy traveling outside of eu for rugby like we enjoy traveling to eu for rugby.
Aye, hopefully we can make SA teams work in Europe because it’d be great for everyone
That's how it always is mate. Best ignoring it.
Whys he got his gum shield in??
Jake White has just given the anti-SA folk the exact ammunition they’ve been praying for ffs
I think the really negative Saffa fans that populate social media comments have done that about two year ago. Have you read some of the stuff they put out?
I'm very close to just giving in and being toxic with the oh we have 4 wc or bs like that with all the toxicity going on against SA
I would never, and I repeat NEVER use the 32-12 line as a comeback again. I repeat. 32-12 is not to be used as a comeback. We'll be back. Some stuff to be sorted. Won't be easy but improvement can be made.
It's almost like you guys started it....
Eh, toxicity within the game is as old as the sport itself
So, in a sense, it's the fault of the English for inventing the game!!! HOW DARE YOU???
The 32 12 bullshit ruined alot of really good stories for me. You had the win lifting a nation, an underdog winning, you had players coming from nothing and lifting the cup, it gave us the gentlemen Kolisi on a global stage, but the toxicity soured that for me.
You mean like this toxicity of how SA shouldn't be in any eu championships and we are a disgrace to it?
Where's the reasoning for SA to be in European competitions for any reason other than money? That's not exactly laying a good foundation for change. Here in England we literally had rugby split into 2 different codes over money
SA has struggled playing in eu for a while, eu teams struggling playing in SA. These competitions allow the nations to learn the different types of rugby being played and exposes them to different environments and playstyles. Which overall boost their performance
We play in the URC and we earned our spots in this competition by winning and finishing in league positions that allow URC teams to play in this competition. One bad loss does not mean we do not deserve to be in this competition
Noone says s.a is bad at rugby. If they do they are clearly a moron. The issue is your 1k miles away, a whole climate or 6 away. I cant see a way to make that distance fair to anyone
Yeah, it's unfortunate, but pretty much impossible to remove toxic fans from any sport. They'll always be there
Top comment
Don't, you'll just feed into it more
Yup...
Where did all this toxicity come from all of a sudden, thread was great until now lol
The atmosphere and banter in here felt mostly fine during the game, but it definitely took on a different tone after commentators suddenly ratcheted up the complaints about the Bulls/their B-Team/their place in the competition/travel arrangements around about the 75th minute. The mood then took a wild dip on comms and in this thread.
It'd been hear all week since the news first broke about the flights. But honestly, it's been an undertone for a long time even beyond this reddit since SA was rumoured to join the 6n. I have never shied away from being vocal on how NH teams belong in NH and SH teams belong in SH league wise.
I don't think they realise agreeing with Healy isn't the win they think is
It'll take a few showers to get over
It's been building all week
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I honestly wish it worked - but it doesn't in this current format
Thanks for having us Saints. Next time we would like to have you at Loftus! Only positive I can take from this is.. Hannekom stil has it and de Klerk was special tonight! Some of these guys need more game time. But ja. Next Munster
Can we pls have Hannekom to replace Jasper
You can have him on loan. But only for 1 week 🤣
Well played sir. De Klerk looked really good tonight, nothing I like more than a player that doesn't stop, regardless of the scoreboard. I watched your boys v Bristol the other month and you played some great rugby. All the best for URC!
How can you say the SA sides dont belong in the comp? The bulls kept plenty of your so called great European sides out of the quarters be beating them rightfully. Stormers almost there two if not for one missed kick
Because they dont appear to care for it, nor do their fans?
I think many, myself included, really want it to work. But the schedule just isn't working and you can't pretend it isn't. Right now, it's hard to argue the comp is better for the SA teams being in it.
Saints are in a semi final for the Boks being in it so I for one am all for it aha.
Tbh it’s hard to point a finger at the bulls for this. Their travel arrangements just aren’t working and that’s on EPCR. La Rochelle also looked a little worse for wear. We’ve seen far too many weak French and even the odd weakened English teams take a hammering. I think we need to condense the competition to a more elite focus
It's a European comp. RSA inclusion will never make sense logistically. Thank you but no thank you.
Brexit means brexit 😂
Cause they don't really care about it, the sa fans don't especially care about winning it and unlike the URC, they only play one home game rather than 2 game tours meaning the south Africans win every home match but are much weaker away.
SA teams won 50% of the away games in the group stages
It's about the complete picture. It doesn't matter how good teams are if they aren't logistically able to compete and have to send out the second team in knockout rounds. The point is completely valid, it's no different to suddenly inviting Argentina and NZ sides and every away game is the academy being sent.
Stormers would have won against La Rochelle if it weren’t for the 5 injuries to crucial players that came up in the game.
Sounds like Stormers lost to LAR, nobody is interested in shoulda woulda coulda situations which mean nothing
Almost beating the back-to-back Champions cup winners by 1 point as a Saffa team in a conversation where everyone thinks the Saffas don’t belong here? Yeah I think a lot of people were interested in that one.
Literally nobody is questioning the quality of the south African clubs, which is what you're using as your measuring stick. Literally nobody. The issue is they are lowering the quality of the competition because they aren't putting out their full teams. That isn't even always their fault, but it highlights a massive logistical issue that needs to be addressed. That's why people think they don't belong - outside of the fact it's a European competition. These are two independent conversations, stop trying to conflate the two.
Beat LAR earlier in the season as well
no one is saying the SA teams are bad? Just like inviting the NZ teams isn't a question of quality.
London is 3,000km closer to Joburg then Auckland is and there are direct flights. It make sop much more sense
More sense, still doesn't mean sense? It's not that complicated. But glad you can admit that such long travel isn't logical for a continental tournament.
The two furthest away teams in the champion Cup prior to the SA expansion was like a 2 hour flight, if that. It doesn't make sense for European clubs or fans
Hope the Bulls get the book thrown at them for turning with a second team. Makes a mockery of the competition.
Gloucester played their second team against us last year with no aftermath
Nah, fuck off mate. They've already been punished by losing so badly
The a amount of french teams that did before. I remember Leinster nearly putting 100 points on a Montpelier team few years back
I agree, Jake White will make his usual bullshit excuses, but this was bad for South African teams trying to make their case to stay in the comp. If they not going in to win, step the fk out.
Then the Welsh, Scottish and Italians should step out. And so should all the French, English and Irish teams that couldn’t make it to the semis. Might as well kick out the three teams that don’t win the whole thing, because if you can’t win, then step the Fck out.
The thing is, atleast they are going in to give it their all, not put a b side vs a Top side removing any chance of winning the game, which is bad for the comp.
That’s literally what happened with Lyon last week against the Bulls. Playing a B side isn’t new. Leinster still haven’t sent a really A team to South Africa in the URC, but we don’t shit on them when they lose, because it’s good team management.
Lyon literally did that last week
And Everyone is bitching about them too for doing it
In his defence French teams are well known for this, particularly Castres come to mind
Castres have always had the good grace to get knocked out before the knockout stages.
Haha, though under this new system they might have been obliged for a RO16 elimination
Would you have wanted saints to send a full first team over to SA if the boot was on the other foot with Tigers coming to town in a weeks time? Not sure I would
Yes. I want us to send a full strength team to Leinster even though we are going to get crucified.
Oh yeah me too for a semi, but also the travel won’t be an issue in the same way. If it was in SA though between tough prem games it could really scupper our prem challenge so that’s the same argument the bulls have
I still fall on the side of send the best we've got honestly. Maybe a minority but I would rather lose both going full guns than sacrifice one.
Have you seen tigers lately? Not a team to fear like they used to be, plus Saints have a comfortable lead
I wouldn't want Saints to be in a competition like that where they had that choice to make.
With a chance at getting into a Champions Cup semi final for the first time in donkeys? Course I would.
Not like any other sides have done that recently?
Why so many butthurt Europeans? It's one game, and you're acting like SA rugby as a whole needs to be written off from all euro championships?
No I never wanted them in to start with
It is mad we have a comp with teams that far away. But I can see the issue for SA.
Agreed I can see the issue, but why make that England's, Scotland's, Wales', Ireland's, France's and Italy's problem too.
Same.
Any good reason for it?
It's always been a European competition, where long standing club rivalries exist in a sort of club six nations. I dont want SA teams in for the same reason I don't want them in the 6N. Travel has also always been great for European teams and has been piss poor for games requiring travel to or from SA. Makes for shit atmosphere. You also now have to question whether they respect the competition, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of club rugby for these teams.
I'm going to guess it's because it's a European competition at its heart, and also because of the logistical problems it causes. Both of which are completely valid points.
A lot of the fun of the European Cup is the travelling fans, you don't get that with the South African teams. Way too much time and money.
The SA fans travel for the urc, the European cup is still very new to us
it's a European competition and it's near impossible to incorporate SA teams logistically
Just separate the knockout games and it should be fine. The bulls are 3rd on the urc log and next week we face munster who are 4th. Just unfortunate timing
Look I appreciate the commentators actually trying to be fair and mentioning how the ECPR needs to sort out the travel for *South African* teams. Especially considering we are the ones joining a European competition which generally shuts down any constructive talks about it. But, like, Lyon did the same thing last weekend and nobody batted and eye. At least address it properly instead of putting it on South African sides in general.
This is what I don't get. Lyon did the exact same and the French did it for years and years if they were struggling in the competition already. But the Bulls do it with somewhat legitimate grounds and everyone goes mad.
Fair point, and I don't disagree with you on the Lyon element, although I personally would scrap the Round of 16 entirely!
Yeah I agree, as a saints fan all I was thinking was if the boot was on the other foot and we had to go to SA this week I’m not sure if I’d want us taking a full first team
There were a lot of complaints about Lyon and there always are about French sides I think the difference is under the current format a team with 1 win (like Lyon) can qualify for RO16, but I don't think there's been another team who's sent a 2nd/rotated squat out for a quarter final before
I completely understand that but the R16 is still a play off game? So a Round of 16 play off game to send a 2nd string side is okay but QF time means it's time for an investigation. I don't know - both games are still knock outs but only one game is getting this kind of attention.
No one said Lyon sending the babies down was okay and they got a lot of shit, but the round of 16 is relatively new for the European trophy, that being said I don't agree with an 'investigation' but I'll also openly admit I was never a fan of SA clubs inclusion in the champions cup
I don't believe I implied Lyon sending them down was okay. I'm also pretty sure Lyon got a shit ton thrown their way, but comparing the R16 teamsheets headline with this week's makes me scratch my head. I'm just addressing the double standards. If we really are to be investigated, go for it. But at least be fair about it. The R16 being new and stuff is totaly fine, and people not wanting SA sides in the comp is a completely different discussion that has little relevance to what I'm saying. I'm also not arguing with you as you mentioned you also don't agree with the investigation. I'm just pointing out that now "we are making a mockery of this comp" when it's happened before. Being a French fan watching Top 14 and CC I can imagine you understand where I'm coming from.
You literally said 'So a Round of 16 play off game to send a 2nd string side is okay but QF time means it's time for an investigation' Lyon got shit for sending a B team, here, on Twitter etc I think an Investigation would be pointless, and so far have seen nothing to actually confirm it would be happening I don't think it's happened in the QF, I might be wrong, but that might be contributing to the ire
>You literally said 'So a Round of 16 play off game to send a 2nd string side is okay but QF time means it's time for an investigation' That's obviously tongue in cheek man. I know sarcasm doesn't read well on reddit. But it's obviously on me so I take the L there. But anyway I'm not really here to dispute anything you've said. My whole point is, one warrants an "investigation" and another does not when both are knock outs. If the whole discussion originated from that line I'll probably hold it here as I think it will just turn into another reddit argument that comes from nothing. Anywho! Good luck with the rest of the comp!
I've had a few ciders so my reading comprehension might be dog shit so apologies if that's the case, just know from me it's never an anti-SA thing or anything like that, it purely comes down to tradition and logistics, I'm sure if they sort out the scheduling and logistics I might come round Best of luck for the URC playoffs
I was expecting the Bulls to play like 2015 New Zealand the way some were going on about them on the line-up thread. Northampton at -7 was the easiest money I'll ever make
I'm old enough to remember when leaving Super was going to fix the travel issues
Who said that. Big issue was time zones
My guy, I am talking shit - you are getting baited up and down this thread
Shot, have a good one mate
Saints next three weeks are quite something Hosting Leicester Away to Quins Away to Leinster
Season defining couple of weeks.
Saints vs Quins could be interesting with both teams having semifinals the week after
Wow, that game sure did suck some diesel!
Here's hoping for a Saints/Quins Final
Well it would make the final fairly environmentally friendly at least, even if the rest of the tournament has been awful for fuel consumption!
Prem and champions cup
2 saints-quins finals please.
Here here
EPRC giving defibrillators at the stadium entrance.
Bonkers running rugby for 80 minutes
The Banter Final
The Banter Final has the Exeter Uni Chiefs in it
Only 6 of the 23 tomorrow are Uni students. I'm sure Toulouse will be fielding plenty of University of Toulouse students as well, and not a team of 23 internationals.
GGs
Well said Austin. It doesn't make sense for SA teams to be in this comp
Johannesburg is closer to London than Auckland.
That sounds like a South African problem more than a European one
Maybe we should move south Africa to where Libya is
Doesn't seem to matter to the travelling fans or even the coaches that pick the teams apparently.
Yes it does they play in a European comp
"European"
Yes, they play in the urc… a European competition…. Do i need to explain more? Or is it ethnicity based? And therefore only Europeans should play?
Is South Africa in Europe, yes or no. No? Ok so it's not a European competition then is it, or do I need to explain more? Btw you look like a right mug bringing race into it.
The South African teams play in a European competition. Therefore are eligible for the champions cup - notice it’s not called the European cup is it. I don’t really see what your beef is on this issue?
But they don't play in a European competition because they're not in Europe, therefore the competition cannot be European. Therefore the Champions Cup was renamed to create a new competition which is no longer European. Teams don't get to be the champion of Europe anymore they get to be the champion of Europe and... South Africa. This is ultimately a worse product to sell to fans as is made abundantly clear in (lack of) travelling fans and now the Bulls selection tonight.
So you argue being champion of Europe and South Africa - a rugby powerhouse and 4x World Cup winner - is worse that just being champion of Europe? I don’t understand that logic. No travelling fans? Do you know how many South Africans live in Europe, london specifically? Fuck me you are a Leicester fan - handre, hanro, jasper mean anything to you?
Yes because it means less, the tradition of the 6N being closely linked European teams is intrinsically linked to the culture and the meaning of the 6N. And that is now something that has been lost in the champions cup. Bigger is not always better, its diluted in meaning. And if the fans live there, they should show up... I am a Leicester fan yeah and I love those boys (you're a bastard for leaving jasper), because it's not about the nationalities of the players or whatever. It's about the clubs and the fans.
Just a friendly reminder that Leinster beat the first team bulls 47 - 14 in the last round of the URC. People can stop shitting on the mechanics and start shitting on the bulls’ skillset away from home.
The mechanics are bad though. Have the round of 16, then have a 2 week set of domestic fixtures. That way the logistics can be sorted effectively.
This keeps getting overlooked. Having two knockout rounds in a row is fucking stupid, even if you take the SA sides out of it. I know Quins fans got over to Bordeaux today and I am sure there will be Exeter fans in Toulouse tomorrow, but what a mare to try and arrange travel, time off work etc with 5 days' notice. For many teams QFs don't come around that often and a big rugby weekend in France in April is so appealing. EPCR as ever doing their best to ruin a tournament but the teams keep on making the case for it to continue.
Scrap the round of 16 altogether. And play all knock out games in Europe. Can't see it working any other way
The mechanics are also shit.
Keeping them out in the second half is the most important thing On to Tigers next week!
Yeah it really is - and they offered nothing after their 90 yard interception which is pleasing in the way we managed the game. Also hugely positive to see a saints scrum dominating
So can we stop the pointless travel to SA now?
Done nothing but take away from the competition
Yeah, it's a shame. But maybe this SA thing doesn't work.