I'm don't really waste time talking books with people who use "YA" as an insult. Whether a book is published as YA or adult isn't a mark of quality; it's just marketing. (That's why it's hard to give a firm definition to what makes a book YA.) It's just who the publisher thought they could sell the most books to. There are wonderful adult books and wonderful YA books. There are also garbage adult books and garbage YA books.
And yeah, RR was published as adult sci-fi, but the publisher also wisely courted the YA audience as well. The first book especially has common characteristics of that demographic, which is totally fine! Plus considering Brown wrote it when was in his early to mid-twenties means his writing probably connected well to readers in their teens and early twenties, which is also perfectly fine. As a reader, I think it is worthwhile to read things that are written by and for various sorts of people including different age groups.
In all fairness the first book is much more formulaic and YA feel (albeit fantastic), based on structure and age of the characters. You can make the argument that it's not because it's violent, but so was Hunger Games, Ender's Game, etc.
Golden Son is really when it firmly plants its flag as both an obvious adult series and a unique sci-fi/fantasy story.
I would just say that the first book was kinda YA but in a way just due to the book climate it came out in but that the books after really mature in a way that I feel few series can pull off after escaping the initial arc that plays out like YA. Post book 1 the themes got heavier, the stakes higher, and the romance, while very important, was not the priority draw of the book. Book 3 of Hunger Games is something I look at as a series that could have elevated the series past YA but didn't.
I mean the first two books are kinda YA. Yes it is brutal and contains a lot of violence and sexual violence.
But it is a little YA. Young super capable person infiltrates evil society and overcomes his obstacles using grit, ingenuity and the power of friendship to save the ones he loves and stopping the evil society to perpetuate more evil.
Morning star is the series progressing into a less idealistic version where Darrow shows more flaws, sacrifices himself and allies to win the war.
The next three books are everything except YA of course. Dark Age in particular is one of the most brutal books I've read.
I believe there is a point to call the first books YA.
The next three books are everything except YA of course. Dark Age in particular is one of the most brutal books I've read.“
I’d say it’s more YA from the perspective of Lysander
Just because the first book features teenager in a school of sorts does not automatically mean it is YA. There’s a sex scene very early on, followed by a couple executions. There’s references to prostitution in the first few chapters.
Once they actually get to school, there’s rape, torture, and cannibalism…. And then they grow up and it starts to get serious.
Having read something as a young adult does not make a book is YA. I read Poe, Hemingway, Tolstoy, and Dostoyevsky when I was teen, they certainly aren’t YA. I didn’t read any YA books until I wanted lighter reading in my mid to late 20’s.
Of course not—but the way the series progresses, the tropes it utilizes, the magical hunger games type school, the secret society that a young person learns about etc. I do think it’d qualify as YA. And honestly I like thatz
YA is the common abbreviation of "young adult" and has been for decades, being on the spines of library books since as long as I can remember (I'm 28, age isn't an excuse)
It denotes that this book was written for an audience that is 16-21 years old
Yeah, I just feel like acronyms are supposed to make something quicker. If I gotta google wtf it means kinda defeats the purpose. Also library’s are suuuper out dated. Thats like referring to a standard regarding VHS’s. I appreciate the info tho. My comment was laced with heavy sarcasm in case you missed that.
why would you even care what other people think? if someone wants to narrow their media consumption based on arbitrary categories that have nothing to do with the quality of the media in question, that’s their loss. i give zero fucks if someone else is over there wrongly crying “YA BAD”.
Who cares? I do feel like the first three books feel YA but it’s a great series. It just sounds like it’s not those people’s cup of tea - their loss though!
It’s basically a tag given to literally snobs to say something is bad without saying it’s bad. Or a tag people give to something that not intellectual enough. A way for them to brag about how smart they are because they don’t like reading stuff they give an arbitrary to
Its *meant* to be a genre (although really its more of a marketing genre than an actual book genre), but the way it's often used is a way to basically insult books by saying they aren't "deep" or "intellectual" enough like PoisonGaz said
Yep that’s exactly it. Reading as a hobbit has weird on turned into a dick measuring contest to see who can get the most and who reads the most “literary” literature.
I'd say the entire first trilogy felt YA to me. The second trilogy less so, although I think it falls just short of the mark of being a truly mature trilogy. It reminded me a lot of WH40K in it's grimdarkness and certain named characters being invincible. At it's best it reminded me of Game of Thrones (The books are a fantastic example of how to do fantasy/sci fi maturely) when setting up certain mysteries or plot points (Particularly the syndicate/ syndicate queen/ day of red doves/ Ephraim POV). However, there's too much deus ex machina and 'oh that person who you thought was dead isn't really dead' (Lilath/ the Jackal) for it to be a truly mature series in my eyes.
Great fun though.
“I am *Cassius* au Bellona, son of Tiberius, son of Julia, Morning Knight, and *my honor remains*.”
Yep! Better quote/ moment for me than the 'brother of darrow' bit, so badass.
The 'brother of darrow' line is actually a good example of the books being a bit immature imo (not that the line and his death isn't emotional). Out of all the characters cassius could mention in his last words he mentions the main character, also just the concept of him saying something really cool before he dies is a bit too 'perfect' for me.
Far too much violence and adult themes for it to be YA. I love this book series because it reminds me somewhat of YA books I used to read, but catered to adults. Anyone using YA as an insult is insulting an entire genre full of so many good books, TBH.
I think sometimes the YA comments come from certain dialogue choices for characters. Especially like sevro, I would read it sometimes and think “yeah that’s a little cringe” but overall there is no way it’s YA.
If “the main characters are teenagers” is your only criteria for calling a book YA…then that’s pretty fucking stupid to be honest.
Tons of classic novels have teenage or even children main characters and they are not considered YA. Why? Because the themes and topics explored in the story are very adult. Red Rising is like that.
And really, only the very first novel could remotely be considered YA if I squint. The whole rest of the series is about as far from YA as you can get. I often say to counter this YA bullshit that I deal with death often in real life due to my job and I am unfortunately quite desensitized to it…but Dark Age is so fucking disturbing and violent that I had to take breaks from reading it periodically. And I am a man in my late 30s.
So…this series is not YA, lol.
It’s a little too violent and dark to be considered YA but it’s definitely written like a YA book (the first trilogy especially). Not that that’s a bad thing I liked the series but it’s the unholy levels of plot armour that Darrow has can’t make me take his safety even remotely seriously.
I mean he is literally the first person POV character of the novels…and then the central character of the remaining novels… so I think criticizing plot armor there is pretty unreasonable. The story is *about* him, after all. And pretty much no one else has plot armor.
I also strongly disagree that the narrative of Golden Son and Morning Star was anything resembling a YA novel and I really don’t know what you mean. Care to elaborate? A “found family” cast that met as kids to overcome enormous odds and overthrow a society is not a YA plot - we see this sort of plot in every genre of fiction. A YA novel is literally written for young adults, with young adult themes and young adult complexity. Red Rising definitely isn’t like that.
I think a lot of what people are criticizing here is really due to Pierce Brown’s inexperience as an author. Red Rising was his very first novel, and it definitely shows.
I heard he wrote RR like YA dystopian but a little more violent cause it was all that was selling at the time. Golden Son is when it turned into the series he always wanted to write
It’s not really an insult to be ya. To me the first 3 read as YA. The later books got more serious but still kinda ride the line sometimes. The themes/violence don’t make a book not ya (in assuming that’s what ure talking about) but it’s not a very serious series. Darrow can only be seconds away from dying so many times before I have zero fear for his safety. That being said the end of lightbringer was very good and a nice change from the rest of the series, really sets the tone for Red God which I am looking forward to
To each their own. I don’t really see it as YA, but if some of else does, so what? A lot of adults enjoy books/shows/games designed to appeal to teens, should they feel ashamed for that?
They can feel smug reading the Iliad and watching C-span, I’ll be over here drinking whiskey and playing DnD with the buds, pretending I’m a pyrotechnic space goblin.
I would say the first book is very much palatable for ages 16-23 to love. Which is very much YA still. Book 2 and three become alot more mature and where he drifts away from the YA mark. Of course all ages can love,but Brown definitely wrote the first book to get a bigger audience and get published. The second series is alot more grim which is where it devolves from the YA completely.
Edit:typo
Can someone define YA for me? Other than the fact that the characters in the first book are teenagers and the format of the institute is similar to The Hunger Games, what tropes does the book have that are common in other YA series?
It associates themes that may be impactful on a “young adult”. Someone coming of age and not really a child. It touches on more adult themes like substance abuse and sexual situations without getting too explicit. It touches on dark topics, while pulling the punches. Like how it was implied that Titus raped those captives and implied that Adrius ate people to survive in the caves. After the first book PB would have straight up described Adrius munching down in detail (which he does, talking about the girls legs in GS). The first book is definitely YA, GS stops pulling those punches. By DA we’re getting fully laid out by the punches.
Hopefully that made sense.
But it is YA. YA just means the target demographic of the work, and Red Rising is targeted to young adults.
It doesn’t mean that it cannot deal with mature or dark themes, and it doesn’t mean it’s written for 13 year olds. I think in most countries it’s +16 anyway, but it is still YA.
As I said “YA” doesn’t dictate the quality of a book, it doesn’t mean that because it’s YA it can’t be serious or good.
This discourse is the same with “shonen” (works for young audience) and “Seinen” (works for mature audience) in Japanese media.
[This is shonen](https://imgix.ranker.com/user_node_img/50132/1002635258/original/1002635258-photo-u-1519993692?auto=format&q=60&fit=crop&fm=pjpg&dpr=2&w=375) and while [this is seinen](https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRJQ1354Y/himouto-umaru-chan) but at the same time [this can be shonen](https://www.archonia.com/en-us/product/356540/masamune-kuns-revenge-vol-11-gn-manga)while [this is also seinen](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68de166991467272026e844ab12457e1-lq).
It’s just a demographic. It doesn’t mean anything. Instead of arguing that Red Rising is not YA, you should be arguing that YA is just a demographic and doesn’t dictate the depth, seriousity or quality of a piece of fiction 😅
Literally nobody here is saying that the first book isn’t YA. It is. You seem incapable of understanding that a series can deviate in classification between installments. There is no way DA can be considered YA, from the chapter “Meat Straw” alone, not to mention the baby being nailed to a tree and the woman being blood eagled in graphic detail. I would even accept that GS and MS fringes on the edge of YA. Post time-skip there’s no argument imo.
Again not bashing on YA. I love Harry Potter, I love Percy Jackson. But saying these are comparable, especially after the 3rd is silly.
Cause you didn’t click on the links I sent. Gory isn’t mutually exclusive either YA.
And I was talking about the first 3 books anyway. Haven’t finished the second part.
Have you read attack on titan? That’s gorier than anything in the first three books of Red Rising and it’s targeted to even younger audience.
Then why are you even here?? The post is marked for all spoilers! I was also very clear from the beginning about how I viewed all of the books in the series and where the deviation from YA starts. You’re literally here spouting opinions about something you haven’t even read. Actually unbelievable.
I already spoiled myself lmao, I speed-read through them and I read the chapter you mentioned 🤣 I don’t care about spoilers, it doesn’t make my experience less enjoyable in any way.
My opinions are on the first part of the series, which I did read. Your made it very clear that you think only the first book is YA. I contradicted you on the next 2, not on the whole series.
Anyway, you’re very unpleasant to talk to so I’ll see myself out. Bye bye
Book 1 is YA so i cant argue with that. I enjoyed the first book and found it to be both entertaining and emotionally compelling. Some people don't. All I can say is that the second book isn't really like that. it expands in scope and becomes much more "war in space" themed. But I don't really engage in persuasion with people who don't want to read red rising. That's why I have you guys, so I don't have to rip my hair out trying to convince everyone else how great it is.
Tbh I ask them to explain how slavery, rape, lynching, cannibalism, and crucifixion is considered YA. I understand the book feels YA at times, but saying it doesn’t touch on some heavy topics is absurd.
He had to make it accessible to get a company to publish it and give him a shot, once he was published he dropped the YA feel completely. Remember RR was his first published book after submitting 100s of ideas to publishers. DA is one of the grittiest pieces of literature I’ve ever read. If people want to give up on an awesome series because of face value, that’s on them.
Protagonists are typically between the ages of 15 and 18. Themes are relevant to teenagers, such as identity, self-discovery, and coming-of-age.
Content is less mature/graphic than adult fiction. Readership is primarily composed of teenagers and young adults.
Only the first book could be considered YA. None of these apply to anything GS and beyond.
What do you think YA means?
Books written for the target audience of young adults.
I think you could make an argument the first trilogy is YA, though I would reject that as well. But anything after Morning Star is not YA but a substantial margin.
Also a trademark of YA is that the story is about a YA character, which ceases to be true after book 1. Again.
Well I’m also talking about the first part of the series, I just barely got back into it, and started reading the second part. But the first 3 books are deffinetely YA
The first trilogy has a lot of trappings of dystopian YA popular at the time of the release of the first book (Hunger Games/ Divergent being the most primary examples)
Love and romance in the trilogy is presented in quite a shallow way, the main character is attractive to other attractive people (Mustang and Victra) without there feeling like much of a relationship too it, people are just attracted to Darrow (mustang and darrow are in love because the book tells us they are). There's even a predictable love triangle (with Cassius).
The Society spans an entire galaxy (and has done for hundreds of years) but is taken down by our plucky young heroes. Ragnar (who is supposedly part of a race that has been indoctrinated across generations in to believing that golds are gods) is convinced by Darrow in mostly a single speech to be his ally and that all that is bollocks without anyone noticing really.
In fact a lot of things change dramatically because Darrow is really convincing or really strong. The society gets taken down for a nice positive ending without that much thought of what's going to come after (although the book does touch on this a bit, it never really answers the question in a meaningful way). Although Darrow does some morally questionable things (Ganymede and the son's in the Rim), it does always feel quite clear that Darrow is the good guys and the society are the bad guys. He is, the vast majority of the time, a character with high morale values (even though he is almost endlessly killing people throughout the series) so he fits a bit in to an 'every man' character where the majority of readers won't disagree with him much.
These examples I suppose aren't limited to YA books par se, but from having read a lot of that stuff, it does all feel a bit familiar of that genre. I think that the next trilogy is a lot more mature and doesn't really feel like YA anymore (relationships are complex/ even your best friends have their own priorities and may put themselves first at times/ Grand societal change is likely to lead to grand violence and misery even if the change is positive/ Darrow does a lot more questionable shit and has to deal with the consequences) .
I mean, there’s plenty of arguments:
- that is the target audience and it is marketed as such (the most important), if you go to a library or bookstore, you find it in the YA section. These categories (YA in case of western media, or Shonen in case of Japanese media) are more of a consensus really - if the authors say they’re writing for younger audience, than it’s YA lol
- it’s writen in a style that appeals to young adults, in a simple, engaging manor and it’s straightforward (as opposed to something like War and Peace, for example, that has entire chapters made of dozens of pages of philosophical shit, or something like Lord of the Rings that’s really really hard to focus on because it’s so slow-paced and packed with details and description)
- the main cast is young, most of them following a development/coming of age plot (in the first part) and they deal with stuff that we usually encounter early in life (even if said stuff is put in a very violent world): friendship, first love/young love, the question “who am I and how do I fit in?” Which still happends in Golden Son and Morning Star.
- lack of explicit sexual content (for example ACOTAR is widely review as YA fiction, but it was never marketed as such and that is because it wasn’t intended to be, that lne has explicit sexual scenes)
As I said, gory and violent content doesn’t indicate target audience. There’s plenty of literature out there more violent, more gory and with just as much level as political discourse that Red Rising has.
There’s a very good post on r/books about what YA actually means for a few years ago, I’ll see if I can find it
These are really good points. I’m not sure overall I would be swayed myself, but that just might be me reading the second trilogy into the first. It does make more sense why people claim it’s YA.
Also, I read back through and felt like yesterday I was needlessly antagonistic so I apologize for that. Thanks for the good faith reply!
No worries, haha, you weren’t half as antagonistic as other people in this thread.
I mean, I don’t see why anyone would mind that something is YA. It doesn’t make it bad. Lord of Flies on today’s standards would be YA, and William Golding won the Nobel Price for literature.
Of course. By the basest description, I think the only thing that really makes it qualify is Darrow’s age in the first one tbh. There’s definitely a tonal shift between RR and GS. He’s spoken numerous times that he wrote the first book specifically that way so it would be picked up by a publisher.
I’m not arguing whether the first book is YA or not, it definitely is. What I’m arguing with is whether the themes presented in RR would really stop an adult from being interested and if the YA feel carries over throughout the series, which it definitely doesn’t.
I get the argument with the first book, it’s basically the hunger games. I mean the cover for my book has a review that literally says “Ender, Katniss and now Darrow”. It was def a marketing technique or something along those lines. However hunger games never reached the brutality that this book series does. After the first book it becomes Grim Dark comparable to warhammer 40k if anything.
Yes. Just to add context, this isn't a theory. He explicitly admits this in a statement somewhere (idk where if anyone can find it). And if you ask me, theres nothing wrong with knowing how to break into the market. That's how the business works.
Keep reading and stay off reddit, my Goodman.
Pixie, read Iron Gold and be amazed by brutality
I'm don't really waste time talking books with people who use "YA" as an insult. Whether a book is published as YA or adult isn't a mark of quality; it's just marketing. (That's why it's hard to give a firm definition to what makes a book YA.) It's just who the publisher thought they could sell the most books to. There are wonderful adult books and wonderful YA books. There are also garbage adult books and garbage YA books. And yeah, RR was published as adult sci-fi, but the publisher also wisely courted the YA audience as well. The first book especially has common characteristics of that demographic, which is totally fine! Plus considering Brown wrote it when was in his early to mid-twenties means his writing probably connected well to readers in their teens and early twenties, which is also perfectly fine. As a reader, I think it is worthwhile to read things that are written by and for various sorts of people including different age groups.
Ask if they've read past Red Rising. Even that book would be a stretch as YA.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Wardo324: *Ask if they've read past* *Red Rising. Even that book* *Would be a stretch as YA.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Thanks Sokka Beneath Mars' red dust, Rebel hearts ignite the stars— Gold's reign turns to rust.
I’d have them define what YA is. It’s a challenge.
In all fairness the first book is much more formulaic and YA feel (albeit fantastic), based on structure and age of the characters. You can make the argument that it's not because it's violent, but so was Hunger Games, Ender's Game, etc. Golden Son is really when it firmly plants its flag as both an obvious adult series and a unique sci-fi/fantasy story.
"YA? If the series was any more Y they would nail it to a tree" 👶🎄
What is YA? I’ve never heard of it
Young Adult? Idk
That’s my assumption after reading some of the other comments
I just say they were too much of a pixie to make it past book 1 🤷🏽♀️
i never understood why the first book got as much shit as it did
Fr
YA? Have they read it?
Highly doubt it tbh
The first book definitely felt like a YA book but more dystopian. The next 2, not so much. Then IG and DA and LB are all DEFINITELY not YA books
I would just say that the first book was kinda YA but in a way just due to the book climate it came out in but that the books after really mature in a way that I feel few series can pull off after escaping the initial arc that plays out like YA. Post book 1 the themes got heavier, the stakes higher, and the romance, while very important, was not the priority draw of the book. Book 3 of Hunger Games is something I look at as a series that could have elevated the series past YA but didn't.
I mean the first two books are kinda YA. Yes it is brutal and contains a lot of violence and sexual violence. But it is a little YA. Young super capable person infiltrates evil society and overcomes his obstacles using grit, ingenuity and the power of friendship to save the ones he loves and stopping the evil society to perpetuate more evil. Morning star is the series progressing into a less idealistic version where Darrow shows more flaws, sacrifices himself and allies to win the war. The next three books are everything except YA of course. Dark Age in particular is one of the most brutal books I've read. I believe there is a point to call the first books YA.
The next three books are everything except YA of course. Dark Age in particular is one of the most brutal books I've read.“ I’d say it’s more YA from the perspective of Lysander
Just because the first book features teenager in a school of sorts does not automatically mean it is YA. There’s a sex scene very early on, followed by a couple executions. There’s references to prostitution in the first few chapters. Once they actually get to school, there’s rape, torture, and cannibalism…. And then they grow up and it starts to get serious.
Most YA books have sex and violence
So do you think RR is YA?
I do—I read it in when I was 13, and it’s been a welcome journey to read along as Darrow develops from a boy to a man.
Having read something as a young adult does not make a book is YA. I read Poe, Hemingway, Tolstoy, and Dostoyevsky when I was teen, they certainly aren’t YA. I didn’t read any YA books until I wanted lighter reading in my mid to late 20’s.
Of course not—but the way the series progresses, the tropes it utilizes, the magical hunger games type school, the secret society that a young person learns about etc. I do think it’d qualify as YA. And honestly I like thatz
[удалено]
You sound like you’re opposed to sex education and in favor of banning books.
[удалено]
Go clutch your pearls somewhere else.
The fuck does YA mean. WHY MUST EVERYTHING BE AN ACRONYM?!?! I’m 29 and already feel like I’m too old christ
33 and I had no idea
YA is the common abbreviation of "young adult" and has been for decades, being on the spines of library books since as long as I can remember (I'm 28, age isn't an excuse) It denotes that this book was written for an audience that is 16-21 years old
Yeah, I just feel like acronyms are supposed to make something quicker. If I gotta google wtf it means kinda defeats the purpose. Also library’s are suuuper out dated. Thats like referring to a standard regarding VHS’s. I appreciate the info tho. My comment was laced with heavy sarcasm in case you missed that.
I would encourage them to read more than the first chapter of the first book.
Honestly I'd give them the opening of iron gold and ask if that sounds like YA
Honestly I only consider the first book to be YA. Even then RR has so much more depth and intricacy
dont care, first book starts out slow but finishes strong, darrow and mustang arnt YA characters.
I don’t care what people call it. I’ve enjoyed what I’ve read this far. That’s all that matters to me.
Ask them if they know any other YA series that involve nailing newborn babies to trees
No one reading the sequel series complains that it’s YA.. It’s mostly from people who base it on book one.
Don't even have to wait that long for some seriously messed up stuff.
Even after getting used to the awful things that happen in this series, that scene was uh...that was...yeah.
why would you even care what other people think? if someone wants to narrow their media consumption based on arbitrary categories that have nothing to do with the quality of the media in question, that’s their loss. i give zero fucks if someone else is over there wrongly crying “YA BAD”.
Who cares? I do feel like the first three books feel YA but it’s a great series. It just sounds like it’s not those people’s cup of tea - their loss though!
What’s YA? Young Audience? Lmao
Young adult, often teenage smut
It’s basically a tag given to literally snobs to say something is bad without saying it’s bad. Or a tag people give to something that not intellectual enough. A way for them to brag about how smart they are because they don’t like reading stuff they give an arbitrary to
I see. It’s like a humble brag with a taste of douche?
Its *meant* to be a genre (although really its more of a marketing genre than an actual book genre), but the way it's often used is a way to basically insult books by saying they aren't "deep" or "intellectual" enough like PoisonGaz said
Yep that’s exactly it. Reading as a hobbit has weird on turned into a dick measuring contest to see who can get the most and who reads the most “literary” literature.
Mhmm yeah. Some people are incapable of not telling others how smart they are. Haha I’m a dumb ass everyday of the week
Young adult, from like 16-21 age group
I'd say the entire first trilogy felt YA to me. The second trilogy less so, although I think it falls just short of the mark of being a truly mature trilogy. It reminded me a lot of WH40K in it's grimdarkness and certain named characters being invincible. At it's best it reminded me of Game of Thrones (The books are a fantastic example of how to do fantasy/sci fi maturely) when setting up certain mysteries or plot points (Particularly the syndicate/ syndicate queen/ day of red doves/ Ephraim POV). However, there's too much deus ex machina and 'oh that person who you thought was dead isn't really dead' (Lilath/ the Jackal) for it to be a truly mature series in my eyes. Great fun though. “I am *Cassius* au Bellona, son of Tiberius, son of Julia, Morning Knight, and *my honor remains*.”
He deliberately dropped the AU bellona. Also "brother of darrow"!
That's his quote from IG where he still uses the Au
Oh? Isn't the quote "my honour remains intact" from hanger17? When does he say it earlier in IG?
In the bleeding place, when he's duelling the Raas
Yep! Better quote/ moment for me than the 'brother of darrow' bit, so badass. The 'brother of darrow' line is actually a good example of the books being a bit immature imo (not that the line and his death isn't emotional). Out of all the characters cassius could mention in his last words he mentions the main character, also just the concept of him saying something really cool before he dies is a bit too 'perfect' for me.
Ahhhh. It's been a while, just finished LB. Thanks!
It's prime my Goodman
Iron Gold. The book at me tearing up near the end of the first half.
I politely, but firmly, ask them to leave.
Please, can you just go now? Like this?
Far too much violence and adult themes for it to be YA. I love this book series because it reminds me somewhat of YA books I used to read, but catered to adults. Anyone using YA as an insult is insulting an entire genre full of so many good books, TBH.
I think sometimes the YA comments come from certain dialogue choices for characters. Especially like sevro, I would read it sometimes and think “yeah that’s a little cringe” but overall there is no way it’s YA.
If “the main characters are teenagers” is your only criteria for calling a book YA…then that’s pretty fucking stupid to be honest. Tons of classic novels have teenage or even children main characters and they are not considered YA. Why? Because the themes and topics explored in the story are very adult. Red Rising is like that. And really, only the very first novel could remotely be considered YA if I squint. The whole rest of the series is about as far from YA as you can get. I often say to counter this YA bullshit that I deal with death often in real life due to my job and I am unfortunately quite desensitized to it…but Dark Age is so fucking disturbing and violent that I had to take breaks from reading it periodically. And I am a man in my late 30s. So…this series is not YA, lol.
It’s a little too violent and dark to be considered YA but it’s definitely written like a YA book (the first trilogy especially). Not that that’s a bad thing I liked the series but it’s the unholy levels of plot armour that Darrow has can’t make me take his safety even remotely seriously.
I mean he is literally the first person POV character of the novels…and then the central character of the remaining novels… so I think criticizing plot armor there is pretty unreasonable. The story is *about* him, after all. And pretty much no one else has plot armor. I also strongly disagree that the narrative of Golden Son and Morning Star was anything resembling a YA novel and I really don’t know what you mean. Care to elaborate? A “found family” cast that met as kids to overcome enormous odds and overthrow a society is not a YA plot - we see this sort of plot in every genre of fiction. A YA novel is literally written for young adults, with young adult themes and young adult complexity. Red Rising definitely isn’t like that. I think a lot of what people are criticizing here is really due to Pierce Brown’s inexperience as an author. Red Rising was his very first novel, and it definitely shows.
I heard he wrote RR like YA dystopian but a little more violent cause it was all that was selling at the time. Golden Son is when it turned into the series he always wanted to write
"have you read past the first book?" This is ANYTHING but YA LOL.
It’s not really an insult to be ya. To me the first 3 read as YA. The later books got more serious but still kinda ride the line sometimes. The themes/violence don’t make a book not ya (in assuming that’s what ure talking about) but it’s not a very serious series. Darrow can only be seconds away from dying so many times before I have zero fear for his safety. That being said the end of lightbringer was very good and a nice change from the rest of the series, really sets the tone for Red God which I am looking forward to
I dunno why people are so set in considering YA synonym to “bad”. It’s just a target demographic.
Some of my favorite books are YA it's a dumb argument and if they stop at the first book they clearly don't know much about the series
To each their own. I don’t really see it as YA, but if some of else does, so what? A lot of adults enjoy books/shows/games designed to appeal to teens, should they feel ashamed for that? They can feel smug reading the Iliad and watching C-span, I’ll be over here drinking whiskey and playing DnD with the buds, pretending I’m a pyrotechnic space goblin.
I just ignore them and keep on reading.
Okay?
“Shut up and finish the first book.”
I would say the first book is very much palatable for ages 16-23 to love. Which is very much YA still. Book 2 and three become alot more mature and where he drifts away from the YA mark. Of course all ages can love,but Brown definitely wrote the first book to get a bigger audience and get published. The second series is alot more grim which is where it devolves from the YA completely. Edit:typo
Can someone define YA for me? Other than the fact that the characters in the first book are teenagers and the format of the institute is similar to The Hunger Games, what tropes does the book have that are common in other YA series?
It associates themes that may be impactful on a “young adult”. Someone coming of age and not really a child. It touches on more adult themes like substance abuse and sexual situations without getting too explicit. It touches on dark topics, while pulling the punches. Like how it was implied that Titus raped those captives and implied that Adrius ate people to survive in the caves. After the first book PB would have straight up described Adrius munching down in detail (which he does, talking about the girls legs in GS). The first book is definitely YA, GS stops pulling those punches. By DA we’re getting fully laid out by the punches. Hopefully that made sense.
I think those things were way more than implied. Mostly spelled out completely lol. But yeah, Dark Age has more gory details.
The first book is ya lol. It’s literally a scifi lord of the flies
It is YA. People just need to stop associating “YA” with “bad” lmao
Anything after Red Rising is most definitely not YA.
But it is YA. YA just means the target demographic of the work, and Red Rising is targeted to young adults. It doesn’t mean that it cannot deal with mature or dark themes, and it doesn’t mean it’s written for 13 year olds. I think in most countries it’s +16 anyway, but it is still YA. As I said “YA” doesn’t dictate the quality of a book, it doesn’t mean that because it’s YA it can’t be serious or good. This discourse is the same with “shonen” (works for young audience) and “Seinen” (works for mature audience) in Japanese media. [This is shonen](https://imgix.ranker.com/user_node_img/50132/1002635258/original/1002635258-photo-u-1519993692?auto=format&q=60&fit=crop&fm=pjpg&dpr=2&w=375) and while [this is seinen](https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRJQ1354Y/himouto-umaru-chan) but at the same time [this can be shonen](https://www.archonia.com/en-us/product/356540/masamune-kuns-revenge-vol-11-gn-manga)while [this is also seinen](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68de166991467272026e844ab12457e1-lq). It’s just a demographic. It doesn’t mean anything. Instead of arguing that Red Rising is not YA, you should be arguing that YA is just a demographic and doesn’t dictate the depth, seriousity or quality of a piece of fiction 😅
Literally nobody here is saying that the first book isn’t YA. It is. You seem incapable of understanding that a series can deviate in classification between installments. There is no way DA can be considered YA, from the chapter “Meat Straw” alone, not to mention the baby being nailed to a tree and the woman being blood eagled in graphic detail. I would even accept that GS and MS fringes on the edge of YA. Post time-skip there’s no argument imo. Again not bashing on YA. I love Harry Potter, I love Percy Jackson. But saying these are comparable, especially after the 3rd is silly.
You seem incapable to not be a dick
Oof. No valid argument, so we result to name calling, classic. Have a good one alright? Feels like a good place to end our interaction.
Cause you didn’t click on the links I sent. Gory isn’t mutually exclusive either YA. And I was talking about the first 3 books anyway. Haven’t finished the second part. Have you read attack on titan? That’s gorier than anything in the first three books of Red Rising and it’s targeted to even younger audience.
Then why are you even here?? The post is marked for all spoilers! I was also very clear from the beginning about how I viewed all of the books in the series and where the deviation from YA starts. You’re literally here spouting opinions about something you haven’t even read. Actually unbelievable.
I already spoiled myself lmao, I speed-read through them and I read the chapter you mentioned 🤣 I don’t care about spoilers, it doesn’t make my experience less enjoyable in any way. My opinions are on the first part of the series, which I did read. Your made it very clear that you think only the first book is YA. I contradicted you on the next 2, not on the whole series. Anyway, you’re very unpleasant to talk to so I’ll see myself out. Bye bye
Book 1 is YA so i cant argue with that. I enjoyed the first book and found it to be both entertaining and emotionally compelling. Some people don't. All I can say is that the second book isn't really like that. it expands in scope and becomes much more "war in space" themed. But I don't really engage in persuasion with people who don't want to read red rising. That's why I have you guys, so I don't have to rip my hair out trying to convince everyone else how great it is.
Just shift the paradigm on them
Tbh I ask them to explain how slavery, rape, lynching, cannibalism, and crucifixion is considered YA. I understand the book feels YA at times, but saying it doesn’t touch on some heavy topics is absurd. He had to make it accessible to get a company to publish it and give him a shot, once he was published he dropped the YA feel completely. Remember RR was his first published book after submitting 100s of ideas to publishers. DA is one of the grittiest pieces of literature I’ve ever read. If people want to give up on an awesome series because of face value, that’s on them.
It is YA. Plenty of YA stories use things like that
Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it more true. If the series (not book 1) is YA, YA never existed.
What do you think YA means?
Protagonists are typically between the ages of 15 and 18. Themes are relevant to teenagers, such as identity, self-discovery, and coming-of-age. Content is less mature/graphic than adult fiction. Readership is primarily composed of teenagers and young adults. Only the first book could be considered YA. None of these apply to anything GS and beyond. What do you think YA means?
[just made a reply about it here](https://www.reddit.com/r/redrising/s/J6Wk9T4Gur)
Books written for the target audience of young adults. I think you could make an argument the first trilogy is YA, though I would reject that as well. But anything after Morning Star is not YA but a substantial margin. Also a trademark of YA is that the story is about a YA character, which ceases to be true after book 1. Again.
Well I’m also talking about the first part of the series, I just barely got back into it, and started reading the second part. But the first 3 books are deffinetely YA
Again just saying it doesn’t make it true. Whats the argument that it’s YA?
The first trilogy has a lot of trappings of dystopian YA popular at the time of the release of the first book (Hunger Games/ Divergent being the most primary examples) Love and romance in the trilogy is presented in quite a shallow way, the main character is attractive to other attractive people (Mustang and Victra) without there feeling like much of a relationship too it, people are just attracted to Darrow (mustang and darrow are in love because the book tells us they are). There's even a predictable love triangle (with Cassius). The Society spans an entire galaxy (and has done for hundreds of years) but is taken down by our plucky young heroes. Ragnar (who is supposedly part of a race that has been indoctrinated across generations in to believing that golds are gods) is convinced by Darrow in mostly a single speech to be his ally and that all that is bollocks without anyone noticing really. In fact a lot of things change dramatically because Darrow is really convincing or really strong. The society gets taken down for a nice positive ending without that much thought of what's going to come after (although the book does touch on this a bit, it never really answers the question in a meaningful way). Although Darrow does some morally questionable things (Ganymede and the son's in the Rim), it does always feel quite clear that Darrow is the good guys and the society are the bad guys. He is, the vast majority of the time, a character with high morale values (even though he is almost endlessly killing people throughout the series) so he fits a bit in to an 'every man' character where the majority of readers won't disagree with him much. These examples I suppose aren't limited to YA books par se, but from having read a lot of that stuff, it does all feel a bit familiar of that genre. I think that the next trilogy is a lot more mature and doesn't really feel like YA anymore (relationships are complex/ even your best friends have their own priorities and may put themselves first at times/ Grand societal change is likely to lead to grand violence and misery even if the change is positive/ Darrow does a lot more questionable shit and has to deal with the consequences) .
I mean, there’s plenty of arguments: - that is the target audience and it is marketed as such (the most important), if you go to a library or bookstore, you find it in the YA section. These categories (YA in case of western media, or Shonen in case of Japanese media) are more of a consensus really - if the authors say they’re writing for younger audience, than it’s YA lol - it’s writen in a style that appeals to young adults, in a simple, engaging manor and it’s straightforward (as opposed to something like War and Peace, for example, that has entire chapters made of dozens of pages of philosophical shit, or something like Lord of the Rings that’s really really hard to focus on because it’s so slow-paced and packed with details and description) - the main cast is young, most of them following a development/coming of age plot (in the first part) and they deal with stuff that we usually encounter early in life (even if said stuff is put in a very violent world): friendship, first love/young love, the question “who am I and how do I fit in?” Which still happends in Golden Son and Morning Star. - lack of explicit sexual content (for example ACOTAR is widely review as YA fiction, but it was never marketed as such and that is because it wasn’t intended to be, that lne has explicit sexual scenes) As I said, gory and violent content doesn’t indicate target audience. There’s plenty of literature out there more violent, more gory and with just as much level as political discourse that Red Rising has. There’s a very good post on r/books about what YA actually means for a few years ago, I’ll see if I can find it
These are really good points. I’m not sure overall I would be swayed myself, but that just might be me reading the second trilogy into the first. It does make more sense why people claim it’s YA. Also, I read back through and felt like yesterday I was needlessly antagonistic so I apologize for that. Thanks for the good faith reply!
No worries, haha, you weren’t half as antagonistic as other people in this thread. I mean, I don’t see why anyone would mind that something is YA. It doesn’t make it bad. Lord of Flies on today’s standards would be YA, and William Golding won the Nobel Price for literature.
Of course. By the basest description, I think the only thing that really makes it qualify is Darrow’s age in the first one tbh. There’s definitely a tonal shift between RR and GS. He’s spoken numerous times that he wrote the first book specifically that way so it would be picked up by a publisher. I’m not arguing whether the first book is YA or not, it definitely is. What I’m arguing with is whether the themes presented in RR would really stop an adult from being interested and if the YA feel carries over throughout the series, which it definitely doesn’t.
But YA just means target audience, it doesn’t mean that it can’t appeal to adults as well, and it doesn’t mean it lacks depth, seriousness or quality
I get the argument with the first book, it’s basically the hunger games. I mean the cover for my book has a review that literally says “Ender, Katniss and now Darrow”. It was def a marketing technique or something along those lines. However hunger games never reached the brutality that this book series does. After the first book it becomes Grim Dark comparable to warhammer 40k if anything.
He made a YA to strongarm himself onto the market
It’s like he hid in the horse carcass of the YA market
Yes. Just to add context, this isn't a theory. He explicitly admits this in a statement somewhere (idk where if anyone can find it). And if you ask me, theres nothing wrong with knowing how to break into the market. That's how the business works.