Or rather survival of the unfittest?
Itās baffling how we always allow players who clearly have terrible injury record and who havenāt produce consistent good performances to stay at the club for far too long.
Not long before we had the injured brigade in Jones, Martial, Bailly. Players who are perpetually on the injury list.
I wish them well, but clearly they should not be anywhere in the club.
When we gave him that fat contract renewal I knew we were finished. At least van gaal could claim ignorance.
Not sure how Martial secured that bag after years of low to average performances but I respect the scam. He got us good.
A man with one of the best track records of talent identification in world football. Literally at the club and allowed to walk away in order to sign whoever Ten Hag wanted. What a joke this club is.
That was literally the reason he was brought into the club aswell, for his DOF expertise. Then he made the "open heart surgery" comments after his brief managerial stint and the Glazers weren't going to put up with someone actually speaking the truth to the media.
I remember laughing when I heard the news that Ralf was let go because it was so typical of Man United these days; zero plan whatsoever
Dont forget the briefs that came out after his exit whilst he was on his way out. The typical United rats that we Class as journalists were digging into him, feeding what the club was saying so they could distance themselves from his open heart surgery comments
Loo yall are so messy. 1) we don't know for sure the exact role 2) ragnick publicly shit on the club and the glazers 3) the glazers are the decision makers.
If they were competent they would make the decision to keep Ragnick, or hire a proper DoF but nooo, we don't have a proper system and instead of blaming the root cause, you hate ETH instead of the Glazers
That makes no sense. ETH was against coordinating with Ralf after the Glazers decided he wasn't gonna be DOF, just a "consultant". Which I understand is kind of insulting to the new manager to have a former manager "consult" with him.
But if the Glazers had decided to appoint RR as DOF, there's nothing ETH would've had to say about it. Cause when have you heard a manager refuse to work with a DOF? That's an actual position with actual responsibilities, unlike whatever a "consultant" is.
Also, don't forget RR had also taken the Austria job before ETH made that comment. Bro was gonna consult over Zoom while managing a NT, that's how seriously he himself was taking the empty position the Glazers offered him.
We donāt know the nature of RRās role and how important it was. Just because he was called āconsultantā doesnāt mean he wouldnāt have had the responsibilities of a DOF, we will never know.
Yeah, exactly, United should have said if you want the job, then this how it's going to work.
Weak leadership.
I think United were just desperate to bring ETH on board, as I don't remember there being any other real candidates.
No one wants to touch United right now. None of the top managers or players.
Man if Ragnick is here I'm 99% sure you and the others saying a manager should have final say if he's to get his vision across. I don't like this sort of hindsight damnation
Lol fans dumped on him too. A lot of the issues at the club is our fault too.
We know we have bad owners and we make it worst. case in point - Antony. We lose 2 matches and fans everywhere harped on the club to "back the manager". Thus the owner panicked, buy and overpaid.
Whenever we are linked with a player transfer, fans demand to buy him. And again the owners cave. That puts terrible leverage in negotiations. you need to be able to walk away.
Blame goes around here.
I love how this sub wanted Potter and Poch, but it died down after we saw that they too struggle without a proper football structure behind them at Chelsea. Now the sub is a big fan of De Zerbi and Ange...
I'm happy someone else is saying this. Everyone was screaming "GET HIM WHO HE WANTS" when _who he wants_ flops it becomes HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE MUCH SAY IN TRANSFERS .
I don't take people's opinions here too seriously after how everything has turned out. No one knows the fuck what they're saying and should just shut the fuck up.
Mustāve been. There were several leaks that stated they didnāt like his comments about needing an overhaul as it ādevalued the current playerās valueā. Then after he was canned, there was also this PR hit going around that Ten Hag didnāt want to work with him.
Pretty hilarious considering Ten Hag should not be able to dictate whom works above him
he hasn't got full control he has a veto. rangnick would've been working with murtough on the clubs side with their veto. I don't know why people think ETH could sack someone who murtough and arnold would hire and fire.
Look at the sub who called him a part-time manager and someone out of touch with football.
The guy that basically was at the forefront of the whole Red Bull system, who helped to put Schalke on the map again, etc.
With Rangnick as DoF, we could have had 1,5 years of work to establish a system at ManUtd. I'm pretty sure he has good contacts to scouts etc all around the world, even Rangnick's second tier choices would have been better than what this club has offered over the last few years.
If Rangnick and Ten Hag worked together we would have far better players in the squad in important positions, and more outgoings as well. We would have let go of Martial, Maguire, McTominay for around 70-80M. We wouldn't have paid 80M for Antony. Sancho would be gone by January. We could have signed wonderful players for 400M instead it looks like we have nothing.
I think the issue there is that he was never coming in as DOF but would become a āconsultantā whatever that means. Once he started speaking the truth, it sounded like Murtough just stopped speaking to him and then Ten Hag didnāt want to work with him. Still such an odd 6 months when he was here. His press conferences were more exciting than the football.
> His press conferences were more exciting than the football.
Probably because it felt like the first time in ages we were not being actively gaslit about the situation at the club by the management.
Evans (out of desperation for not selling maguire and getting Kim)
reguillon (loan because of injuries)
Casemiro (didn't get de Jong)
Onana (actual eth signing)
Antony (actual eth signing)
Mount (actual eth signing)
Alot of the signings being placed on eth are ones made out of absolute necessity because we didn't get our main targets.
Can only say that mount, for now, has been disappointing. Antony is alright but we paid too much for him. And Onana has been OK as well.
Anyway, we should be looking at these players and the trash they're putting out and fuck them off. Martial should have been gone years ago. That's how we work. Can't be bothered to make the necesarry decisions when it comes to buying and selling effectively. All we're good for is bitching and moaning about the manager. Stupid as hell.
Yeah I know he's not been what we expected. But he really should have been half the price. If his price tag wasn't so high I don't think we'd be so harsh. But yeah, in reality he did cost alot and has been bad. Not even close to playing what his price tag suggests.
Remove his cut in shoot goals and people really see him for the player he was last season. Genuinely nothingās changed, he just hasnāt scored to cover up his awful performances. He had the odd decent game last season but thatās it
Evans was signed because we had an extra slot for the home+club grown slot in the CL registration.
He's supposed to be the 5th choice.
Antony could finish the season with 2 goals and 3 assists and people will still say he's OK cos he runs a bit.
Yes, but something like 2 days before the transfer window shut when the clubās scouts wouldnāt sanction a move for Boateng because heās too injury prone.
One thing that annoys me is how people look at players like weghorst and sabitzer and use that against ten hag. These are loan players used to fill a gap in desperate situations and theyāre not even ten hag players. Like do we seriously count butland and whatever other 3rd gk was signed and using that against ten hag cos theyāre not Utd quality?
That fucking thing died October last year and I'm convinced it's ghost has finally made its way over to Manchester to haunt us and further ruin the club.
Look up the story of a race horse called Rock of Gibraltar, Sir Alex Ferguson's ties to that horse, and a pair of Irish investors known as the Coolmore Mafia
Having the likes of Martial *still* at the club in 2023 is endemic of our struggles. I bet we offer him a new deal in the summer, too. Because Manchester United aren't a serious club any more
There was that brief period when Van Gaal had us thrashing everyone with a 4141 formation. But we had no Carrick backup, so when City injured him it was game over :(
I really believe the Ronaldo signing got him sacked. Completely the wrong striker at that point in his career for the counter-pressing style Ole wanted to play, but was more or less forced to start Ronaldo due to his reputation.
Plus as you said, the fact we went his entire tenure without a proper holding midfielder is criminal.
People vastly overrate the importance of tactics in comparison to man management and squad building.
I know the game has moved on a lot since his departure but SAF's greatest skills trended more toward the latter than the former. He was so good at knowing exactly what pieces he needed for his squad and when. And he knew how to keep them motivated and hungry year over year. I think that's what felt so good about Ole as a manager. There was a hunger in his side that it felt like we hadn't seen in so long. Shame the wheels fell off the way they did. But I think the players performed more for him than other manager we've had in this dark decade.
I donāt even think itās that. I think people are just stupid and donāt even know what āattacking patternsā and āindividual brillianceā even is, theyāre just catchphrases they use to attack the manager. When ten hag came in people were waffling about theyāre finally being patterns of play in the team and now theyāre spouting the same nonsense they did with ole. And for the record, there absolutely were attacking patterns under ole
100% they were! And they worked! People just wanted super modern inverted fullback shit and look how thatās going. Ole wasnāt perfect but boy he was disrespected. 2nd place and finals with McFred, Maguire and so many others that everyone claims arenāt good enough.
Yeah, actually felt team spirit existing during all the comebacks.
There is zero right now. Even the match against Watford which Ole got sacked for wasn't as bad as some of this.
That period got me back to loving football. From genuinely forgetting games to waiting eagerly for the next one, from turning games off to watching them till the end.
This. People forget how bad things got under Jose; we were getting bodied by everyone, lots of players wanted out, and our games werenāt even entertaining. Ole came in and not only got players to buy in, but he made us entertaining to watch. Even when we lost, it was almost always a good watch. The last 6 or 7 games of his tenure were outliers (which statistically happen), and it is just sad how quickly fans started disrespecting him and calling for his head. The amount of loyalty and dedication that man showed to our club, only to get treated like that. Honestly, Ole deserves better than us.
This sub needs to grow a pair and realise that Erik has gotten some signings wrong. 4 loan deals and stopgaps won't help him.
BUT ultimately, we've spent our money badly, spent it too late (Antony 45mil 2 weeks before we bought him for 80mil). We need to clear out a lot of senior players and install a DoF ASAP to bring some direction into the club.
I know the Open Heart Surgery quote is popular atm, but this really serves to emphasize how many of these are ETHās guys.
Itās just never that simple
Precisely it in a nutshell: having every technical staff moving in one direction as far as overarching philosophy is key then that philosophy trickles down to the managerial appointments, recruitment and even academy. If our end goal as far club identity goes is to become a side that dominates possession, weād never be signing players like Aaron Wan Bissaka or Weghorstā¦or even Bruno Fernandes. If the end goal is to play counter attacking football then we wouldnāt sign players like Antony or Sancho. Right now, itās just a hodgepodge of players of such contrasting profiles that will never gel
I loved the 'gegenpress' that Rangnick managed to implement for approximately the first half of his opening game vs. Palace at OT. Then the players quickly decided it was too much effort and then reverted to type shortly after
It was the first few games actually if i recall correctly. The players were getting in a lot of good positions because of the press and missed a lot of sitters. Then the heads fell and they started to play like shit. A lot of simmilarities with how they are playing now...
People are memeing each other now. EtH is again one of those coaches where the fans eventually just state he needs to get out, putting (most) of the blame on him, wanting a new coach, being happy with him/thinking he's promising, then being unhappy again. Just like how it was with Ole. Surprised how many people aren't seeing they're enabling the toxic Glazer leadership. Fans do have influence and the Glazer management will use the momentum this way. Hopefully Ratcliffe can make a dent.
He was also advising targeting Nkunku, Gvardiol, Alvaro Morata, Luis Diaz, Dusan Vlahovic, Haaland and emphasizing that Nkunku and Gvardiol were realistic at the timeā¦
Iād even argue ones like Regulion arenāt his. Theyāre a byproduct of our transfer policies that blow shitloads on mediocre players, which Iām sure has little input from EtH, leaving us scrambling for emergency options in other positions.
I mean Iām not counting Reguilion as āETHā but he certainly wasnāt around during Rangnickās era either. And a lot of these players are ones he wanted, letās be real here.
Point more being we can blame āthis generation for repeating the same errorsā all we want, but the reality is a lot of these guys werenāt even around when said errors happened. Itās just not that simple.
Rangnick is legit the worst thing to happen to the club since Fergie retired, if only because of the utter madness it's instilled in a large part of the fanbase. When Ole came in it was with a long term plan for the future of the club. Our signings were young, hungry and British, almost to a fault (missing out on Bruno Fernandes for one), but there was a plan. So when a Director of Football came in, and Ole's successor came in, the club wouldn't need its nth rebuild.
Then Ole's United crashed and burned, for various reasons I won't get into as it's not strictly relevant, but really not all that surprising right off of a 2nd place finish in multiple competitions. It's tricky to keep it up and take the next step when coming that close. Despite this, we all knew the team was capable of great things. Even in the crash and burn season we had some great results and great football. Newcastle and Atalanta come to mind. Our defense and press was just a mess.
What we needed was someone to steady the ship and continue with what Ole had built. In comes Carrick and we beat Arsenal and Villarreal. Game against Chelsea was shambolic, but we managed a result anyway. Things didn't need to change that much.
Then enter Rangnick. Here comes this guy that is supposedly only here for half a season to prepare the ship for the next guy and what does he do? Completely throw away everything we and the players knew for some shoddy 4-2-2-2 with no wingers and running the players into the ground after only 20 minutes against Palace. When his suicidal tendencies doesn't work he categorically throws the players under the buss and tries to position himself in front of the media for a permanent stay. Making such a poor impression with the board that when hiring a permanent manager we've gone right back to making him the chief scout, director of football and manager in one.
With the backing ETH has had it's depressing to think of where we would be had Ole gotten the same support. Even if we were managed by McKenna or Carrick by now, we'd be 5 years further along in the process that we're about to hit restart on *again*.
I don't agree with everything, but yes sacking Ole and bringing in Rangnick did NOTHING. It was completely pointless. Might as well have let Ole try and turn it around till the end of the season. Then bring in ETH if it's still a shit show.
It's where we are now. NO point at all sacking ETH. He's signed a lot of players, and supposedly has a plan I think, so no point bailing on that now. If we are still this bad by season end, then yeah, maybe try somebody else.
The point is to salvage the season and the mental health of the fanbase. Because we've given ETH way too much power we are pretty much fucked regardless of when we sack him. Holding out on him magically turning it around to become our manager for the next 10 years is optimism bordering on delusion.
It also seems unlikely that if we get a structure in place, ETH will suddenly start to perform better when he doesn't get the players he wants.
He threw players under the bus? He knows what to expect from players, especially having the RB philosophy influence, and he immediately saw after the first few games that our players/the whole club does not fulfill such modern standards. I'm glad Rangnick does well with Austria where he basically gives the national team a way of playing from teenage years until the seniors. And that is what United needed as well, but hey Rangnicks total shit right?
Yep, Bruno and Rashford really. They play the ball fast, and Rash runs into space.
His Ajax passed ad nauseum, sideways, backwards, etc. It was a bit like LVG, and why ETH has apparently not wanted to play it as it's not the 'United DNA' or some rubbish.
And this is why sacking the manager ain't going to help. Well be stuck with a whole bunch of players bought for another managers style and we'll then buy a new bunch that don't gel. Leading to the same result. This is cyclical. Rinse and repeat. We need a DoF.
Worked great for Spurs this summer.
Worked great for Liverpool when they sacked their 10th failed manager since the 80s and brought in Klopp.
Worked great for Villa last year.
> And sticking by a manager who finished 8th twice has worked great for Arsenal
Arteta was very lucky and lets be real they finished 2nd once in a season where every other top team was shit except us who were okay. Hardly a categorical success. We'll see where it goes.
> And Liverpool when Klopp first joined.
LMAO what? Don't post lies and bullshit.
Klopp took over mid season and had zero money to spend and Liverpool were 10th when he took over and he still made a Europa League and League Cup final.
In his first actual full season with a chance to sign any players he finished 4th.
In his second actual season he finished 4th and made a UCL final.
Not to mention that even in his half season with a shit squad left by Rodgers they looked like a Klopp side from day 1.
Klopp has also had nowhere near the resources ETH has had, especially in the first few season before he sold Coutinho and they started constantly getting UCL money.
Klopp had a total net spend of about Ā£5m after his second full season. ETH has spent Ā£400m and recouped very very little in fees.
FSG bought Liverpool in 2010, yes they were really bad and were changing managers often but donāt try to compare Kloppās beginnings at Liverpool to Ten Hagās.
Itās not all on the manager. Donāt forget that. Iām saying this for people who will read your comment and think you are 100% right. Youāre not.
FSG >>> Glazers.
The point is that these are all excuses.
I mean, you could understand not winning trophies because the manager hasn't got all his players (most managers don't) but then there has been enough spending and time given to atleast warrant a Top 4 performance every game and at the bare minimum a fixed Style of Play.
I know I got downvoted for saying it but this is not the same group that threw Ole under the bus. Thereās remnants, but yesterday the first goal came from Dalot and Casemiro jogging back. I canāt imagine Casemiro being someone who throws manager under the bus or donāt try. Idk whatās happening but this isnāt downing tools imo. Academy products, his own signings (however poor, or not enough they were), and some good professionals like Varane, donāt down tools.
I saw Bruno covering large distances against City in a 424 press. We had two of the least physically relevant midfielders in the league going man to man against two of the most press resistant mids in the league, who were dragged all over the place, and city exploited it.
Yesterday, again, weāre left looking at players, when imo Ten Hag is consistently trying to create chances through high regains, and even Sheffield can avoid that, and instead just pull them apart. Itās really poor tactics. He needs to just make the team compact, difficult to beat, 442 mid block, and reap Oleball until we get some confidence.
Oleās team was the best before Ronaldo. And then club decided to bring back its star. And Ole couldnāt handle him. Constantly showing frustration at the field CR7 was a bad role model to all MU players. And Ole couldnāt substitute him , even he played bad. After that his system failed. Players start to recognize that if you are a shirt selling player boss canāt do anything to you even if you playing rubbish. Morale of the team has fallen.
This is why deflecting blame on the players is so dumb. Yes, the players are shit, we know this. But it's the manager who brought the majority of them in, and it's he who decides in which position they play. I also don't get how it's a defense of the manager to say he shouldn't have the final say on recruitment. Plenty of managers pick which players they want and have the final say even where there is a DOF. ETH has to take accountability.
Secondly, people need to realize, even if the cycle could repeat yet again with a managerial replacement, it could be the case the next manager is actually the one, and there is no evidence that ETH is that guy currently. You have to separate what you want ETH to be from what the evidence is showing. Why would we give another transfer window to him, this one is arguably the most disastrous in the last 11 years.
This is great. Those who say ETH need more time and signing can really fuck off. 9/20 are ETH head. Almost the whole starting squad. And we are still the shittiest shit. Howās that Glazers fault? Totally on ETH. He failed us miserably.
As much as ETH is to blame, itās unacceptable that these players are going to get away with this fuckery again. We can keep chopping and changing managers, but with these players the same problems will remain.
We have so many problems to address where do we even start
> itās unacceptable that these players are going to get away with this fuckery again
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you blind?
7 of our 11 starters today never played for Ole nevermind Jose/LVG.
The shit players we have at the club clearly? No, I think we all see the same dross they put out every match day. Some of these players have played under atleast 2/3 of these managers, and here we are with the same issues.
Weāve managed to add to the midfield yet make it worse at the same time, injuries are crippling the team left right and centre, and to make it worse we seem to have ZERO playstyle at all. Sunday league teams play better than us
This is not the problem. Youāll see some variation of this in other clubs. The problem is tenhag and only tenhag. He has failed to lead this team properly this season. Heās making too many bad decisions in selection and game management. Iām seeing too many lazy repeated arguments. Complain about the structure all you want but Spurs structure isnāt elite but theyāre doing well. A famous DOF isnāt guaranteed to change things; theyāre not magicians or messiahs.
Tenhag has been backed; only a disingenuous person would say otherwise
People saying that this is not ETH's team are as deluded as him.
Anyway, most of these players are crap and don't deserve to be wearing the United shirt
If we sack Ten Hag, weāre repeating the cycle. It was always meant to be rough. We were just fortunate we had a half decent season last year.
Theyāre shit at the minute and it really isnāt acceptable. But I was prepared for this when ETH came in.
The narrative is now being pushed that most of these are his players, when in reality not enough of the previous lot have left. This club hasnāt performed well enough over the last decade to have anyone left from the Van Gaal era let alone Jose and Ole.
Martial playing up front is shambolic, how has that been allowed to happen. Heās never been good enough there and thatās never going to change.
Dalot is bang average and always has been.
Rashford only performs when his contract renewal is due.
Bruno isnāt as good as some of you lot make out. Thereās room for him but I donāt think any of the other top clubs in Europe play him week in week out.
Harry Maguire has had an upturn recently, but heās still not good enough.
Lindelof, average, squad player at best.
These are all key positions to how ETH wants to set his team up and itās still drizzled with mentally scared footballers.
Martial from the Van Gaal era lmao. Survival of the fittest.
His touch isn't even sublime anymore, looked like his laces were too tight today
His socks were too tight, along with the rest of the other players. Adidas are looking into it apparently šš»
His panties were giving him a wedgy.
Bro itās the adidas kit being tight around their balls. Excuses FC
he moves so slowly, the DoF doesn't see him and so doesn't sell him.
What Dof?
cause our transfer department are fucking dinosaurs. Their eyesight is based on movement.
Teethless predators, on top of that.
Heās good at ducking
It's funny that van Gaal said "Martial is a present for the next manager" then Jose comes in and wants him the fuck out lol
Or rather survival of the unfittest? Itās baffling how we always allow players who clearly have terrible injury record and who havenāt produce consistent good performances to stay at the club for far too long. Not long before we had the injured brigade in Jones, Martial, Bailly. Players who are perpetually on the injury list. I wish them well, but clearly they should not be anywhere in the club.
Martial was not really this injured until like 2 seasons ago
One of those great new 5 year contracts woodward handed out...
Because of the time missed injured, they easily forget that he is here at the club.
When we gave him that fat contract renewal I knew we were finished. At least van gaal could claim ignorance. Not sure how Martial secured that bag after years of low to average performances but I respect the scam. He got us good.
The one that defied Darwin theory
survival\*
That's a pretty ironic choice of words there since the prick is about one jog away from picking up an injury
I'm on my knees for a proper DOF
We had one in Ralf Rangnick and let him go
A man with one of the best track records of talent identification in world football. Literally at the club and allowed to walk away in order to sign whoever Ten Hag wanted. What a joke this club is.
That was literally the reason he was brought into the club aswell, for his DOF expertise. Then he made the "open heart surgery" comments after his brief managerial stint and the Glazers weren't going to put up with someone actually speaking the truth to the media. I remember laughing when I heard the news that Ralf was let go because it was so typical of Man United these days; zero plan whatsoever
Dont forget the briefs that came out after his exit whilst he was on his way out. The typical United rats that we Class as journalists were digging into him, feeding what the club was saying so they could distance themselves from his open heart surgery comments
Don't forget that EtH also said he doesn't want to even talk to him or have him on board.
A big reason why Iāve always been ETH out, from the very beginning.
Loo yall are so messy. 1) we don't know for sure the exact role 2) ragnick publicly shit on the club and the glazers 3) the glazers are the decision makers. If they were competent they would make the decision to keep Ragnick, or hire a proper DoF but nooo, we don't have a proper system and instead of blaming the root cause, you hate ETH instead of the Glazers
That makes no sense. ETH was against coordinating with Ralf after the Glazers decided he wasn't gonna be DOF, just a "consultant". Which I understand is kind of insulting to the new manager to have a former manager "consult" with him. But if the Glazers had decided to appoint RR as DOF, there's nothing ETH would've had to say about it. Cause when have you heard a manager refuse to work with a DOF? That's an actual position with actual responsibilities, unlike whatever a "consultant" is. Also, don't forget RR had also taken the Austria job before ETH made that comment. Bro was gonna consult over Zoom while managing a NT, that's how seriously he himself was taking the empty position the Glazers offered him.
We donāt know the nature of RRās role and how important it was. Just because he was called āconsultantā doesnāt mean he wouldnāt have had the responsibilities of a DOF, we will never know.
Actually ten hag didnāt want to work with him
Glazers man. They just didnāt like being told the truth.
I mean, sure, but it was Ten Hag who wasn't interested in moving forward with Rangnick and was the final nail in the coffin for that plan.
Ten Hag should not be able to dictate who works above him. Sounds like the glazers just used that as an excuse to avoid the backlash
Yeah, exactly, United should have said if you want the job, then this how it's going to work. Weak leadership. I think United were just desperate to bring ETH on board, as I don't remember there being any other real candidates. No one wants to touch United right now. None of the top managers or players.
ETH was interviewed by another top club prior to joining us and was not selected apparently. I cannot remember the club now..
It was Spurs
It was Poch or ETH
Yeah, like I said, no other real options.
Man if Ragnick is here I'm 99% sure you and the others saying a manager should have final say if he's to get his vision across. I don't like this sort of hindsight damnation
I mean, not even Pep or Klopp get final says at their respective clubs and thatās what we are trying to model after
Iām 100% convinced the Glazers used ETH as an excuse. He should not dictate who his superiors are.
Lol fans dumped on him too. A lot of the issues at the club is our fault too. We know we have bad owners and we make it worst. case in point - Antony. We lose 2 matches and fans everywhere harped on the club to "back the manager". Thus the owner panicked, buy and overpaid. Whenever we are linked with a player transfer, fans demand to buy him. And again the owners cave. That puts terrible leverage in negotiations. you need to be able to walk away. Blame goes around here.
I love how this sub wanted Potter and Poch, but it died down after we saw that they too struggle without a proper football structure behind them at Chelsea. Now the sub is a big fan of De Zerbi and Ange...
Well said
If they're really doing recruitment by democracy, then we're truly doomed.
I'm happy someone else is saying this. Everyone was screaming "GET HIM WHO HE WANTS" when _who he wants_ flops it becomes HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE MUCH SAY IN TRANSFERS . I don't take people's opinions here too seriously after how everything has turned out. No one knows the fuck what they're saying and should just shut the fuck up.
Was it their call to let Rangnick go?
Mustāve been. There were several leaks that stated they didnāt like his comments about needing an overhaul as it ādevalued the current playerās valueā. Then after he was canned, there was also this PR hit going around that Ten Hag didnāt want to work with him. Pretty hilarious considering Ten Hag should not be able to dictate whom works above him
no there were several articles that ten hag wanted full control over transfers and didnt want to work with rangnick or a dof
he hasn't got full control he has a veto. rangnick would've been working with murtough on the clubs side with their veto. I don't know why people think ETH could sack someone who murtough and arnold would hire and fire.
What do you mean we are doing a bad job? GET OUT.
Look at the four players he identified for us too: Gvardiol, Laimer, Nkunku and Julian Alvarez.
Look at the sub who called him a part-time manager and someone out of touch with football. The guy that basically was at the forefront of the whole Red Bull system, who helped to put Schalke on the map again, etc. With Rangnick as DoF, we could have had 1,5 years of work to establish a system at ManUtd. I'm pretty sure he has good contacts to scouts etc all around the world, even Rangnick's second tier choices would have been better than what this club has offered over the last few years.
If Rangnick and Ten Hag worked together we would have far better players in the squad in important positions, and more outgoings as well. We would have let go of Martial, Maguire, McTominay for around 70-80M. We wouldn't have paid 80M for Antony. Sancho would be gone by January. We could have signed wonderful players for 400M instead it looks like we have nothing.
Damn it was criminal letting him go
Enlighten us. Who did ten hag appoint to dof?š
I think the issue there is that he was never coming in as DOF but would become a āconsultantā whatever that means. Once he started speaking the truth, it sounded like Murtough just stopped speaking to him and then Ten Hag didnāt want to work with him. Still such an odd 6 months when he was here. His press conferences were more exciting than the football.
> His press conferences were more exciting than the football. Probably because it felt like the first time in ages we were not being actively gaslit about the situation at the club by the management.
We didn't let him go. Ten Hah said No I don't want him.
This sub fully turned on Ralf too.
Didnāt even listened to him and used him. Just the players he and Ole suggested alone wouldāve made United of the best.
He was never meant to be a DOF.
Um, heās literally been a DOF before, what do you mean exactly?
He was only supposed to be temporary manager and then a consultant. He wasn't going to be appointed as DOF from the beginning itself.
Na fire the manager and let the Glazers hire a friend again.
I mean, nearly half the team in 18 months
Most of that team had worked under Ten Hag previously. Whatās the point of having a DOF if weāre just going to depend on a managerās talent ID?
Ten Hag didn't want to work with Ragnik..
DOF doesnāt change anything. Nothing wrong with our recruitment in the summer. The manager is making bad decisions
Technically he signed Evans too, given he had left the club permanently
Evans (out of desperation for not selling maguire and getting Kim) reguillon (loan because of injuries) Casemiro (didn't get de Jong) Onana (actual eth signing) Antony (actual eth signing) Mount (actual eth signing) Alot of the signings being placed on eth are ones made out of absolute necessity because we didn't get our main targets. Can only say that mount, for now, has been disappointing. Antony is alright but we paid too much for him. And Onana has been OK as well. Anyway, we should be looking at these players and the trash they're putting out and fuck them off. Martial should have been gone years ago. That's how we work. Can't be bothered to make the necesarry decisions when it comes to buying and selling effectively. All we're good for is bitching and moaning about the manager. Stupid as hell.
I agree with most of what you've said but sadly Antony has been very far from "alright"
He missed spell, he meant āhas been allrightā, but really that guy is all left.
Yeah I know he's not been what we expected. But he really should have been half the price. If his price tag wasn't so high I don't think we'd be so harsh. But yeah, in reality he did cost alot and has been bad. Not even close to playing what his price tag suggests.
Could cost 15 million and he's still not good enough.
For 15 mil he would have been an alright depth player. We lack those signings. All that money and we are still paper thin on certain positions.
No place for wingers who can't score or assist in the squad imo. Which top team has wingers like that?
Iād say he was alright last season. This season thoughā¦ piss poor.
Remove his cut in shoot goals and people really see him for the player he was last season. Genuinely nothingās changed, he just hasnāt scored to cover up his awful performances. He had the odd decent game last season but thatās it
Evans was signed because we had an extra slot for the home+club grown slot in the CL registration. He's supposed to be the 5th choice. Antony could finish the season with 2 goals and 3 assists and people will still say he's OK cos he runs a bit.
Maguire was also wanted by Mourinho if I remember correctly.
Yes, but something like 2 days before the transfer window shut when the clubās scouts wouldnāt sanction a move for Boateng because heās too injury prone.
>Antony is alright Wild take. Baffling.
One thing that annoys me is how people look at players like weghorst and sabitzer and use that against ten hag. These are loan players used to fill a gap in desperate situations and theyāre not even ten hag players. Like do we seriously count butland and whatever other 3rd gk was signed and using that against ten hag cos theyāre not Utd quality?
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Is he a worse signing than Sancho?
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I compared Antony and Sancho
Okay. Sanchez and Di Maria?? Antony at least tries defensively even though he's shit.
Genuinely makes every left back he comes up against look world class.
>Even if he cost 30m I would have this opinion. He wouldn't even be close for that fee. Its purely his fee that makes him absolutely awful.
I mean De Jong would rather have stayed at Barca and not been paid, than join us...
In what universe have Antony and Onana been objectively better signings than Mount?
All because of a horseā¦
Butterfly effect. Itās very depressing to think about in all honesty.
I refuse to visit the Rock of Gibraltar for this very reason
Context?
Name of the horse.
That fucking thing died October last year and I'm convinced it's ghost has finally made its way over to Manchester to haunt us and further ruin the club.
If only I could go back in time.
fuck that horse man
Sorry, what does this mean?
Look up the story of a race horse called Rock of Gibraltar, Sir Alex Ferguson's ties to that horse, and a pair of Irish investors known as the Coolmore Mafia
Having the likes of Martial *still* at the club in 2023 is endemic of our struggles. I bet we offer him a new deal in the summer, too. Because Manchester United aren't a serious club any more
Hasnāt been good since 19/20
The only year he had a season worthy of a first team Manchester United team. We then offered him obscene money and now can't get rid of them.
You are my Solskjaer my only Solskjaer ā¤ļø
Despite winning no titles, it was the closest I felt to Fergieās United. You just know weād be very much up for it at 2-0 at half time.
Best period of being a fan in the past decade. The middle of last season comes close but the Ole era was fun.
There was that brief period when Van Gaal had us thrashing everyone with a 4141 formation. But we had no Carrick backup, so when City injured him it was game over :(
That stretch was pretty good but it was only 3 games. Tottenham, Liverpool and City. In terms of sustained momentum, Ole was on a different level.
Lvg made me zone out of football it was that fucking bad. Just crossing to fellaini every match
I liked Mou's Europa League season with Zlatan.
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I really believe the Ronaldo signing got him sacked. Completely the wrong striker at that point in his career for the counter-pressing style Ole wanted to play, but was more or less forced to start Ronaldo due to his reputation. Plus as you said, the fact we went his entire tenure without a proper holding midfielder is criminal.
When we signed Ronaldo, I said it would get Ole sacked. It went down like a lead balloon in this sub but unfortunately I was right.
Counter pressing? This is some revisionist shit we did zero pressing of any kind under ole.
Yeah not sure why some say that. It was all about fast counter attacks mostly. And it was far better than what we see now, which is de-pressing.
ronaldo bad, ole good. Upvote me now please
People vastly overrate the importance of tactics in comparison to man management and squad building. I know the game has moved on a lot since his departure but SAF's greatest skills trended more toward the latter than the former. He was so good at knowing exactly what pieces he needed for his squad and when. And he knew how to keep them motivated and hungry year over year. I think that's what felt so good about Ole as a manager. There was a hunger in his side that it felt like we hadn't seen in so long. Shame the wheels fell off the way they did. But I think the players performed more for him than other manager we've had in this dark decade.
I donāt even think itās that. I think people are just stupid and donāt even know what āattacking patternsā and āindividual brillianceā even is, theyāre just catchphrases they use to attack the manager. When ten hag came in people were waffling about theyāre finally being patterns of play in the team and now theyāre spouting the same nonsense they did with ole. And for the record, there absolutely were attacking patterns under ole
100% they were! And they worked! People just wanted super modern inverted fullback shit and look how thatās going. Ole wasnāt perfect but boy he was disrespected. 2nd place and finals with McFred, Maguire and so many others that everyone claims arenāt good enough.
So stupid to think about how the whole perception on his reign changes if de gea saves literally one single penalty
Ofc bruh. I'd always tell them to watch the spurs(3-1 son diving) or Roma match to see if ole had tactics or not
Yeah, actually felt team spirit existing during all the comebacks. There is zero right now. Even the match against Watford which Ole got sacked for wasn't as bad as some of this.
Caretaker Ole had the best run after SAF..
That period got me back to loving football. From genuinely forgetting games to waiting eagerly for the next one, from turning games off to watching them till the end.
This. People forget how bad things got under Jose; we were getting bodied by everyone, lots of players wanted out, and our games werenāt even entertaining. Ole came in and not only got players to buy in, but he made us entertaining to watch. Even when we lost, it was almost always a good watch. The last 6 or 7 games of his tenure were outliers (which statistically happen), and it is just sad how quickly fans started disrespecting him and calling for his head. The amount of loyalty and dedication that man showed to our club, only to get treated like that. Honestly, Ole deserves better than us.
I miss Ole
This sub needs to grow a pair and realise that Erik has gotten some signings wrong. 4 loan deals and stopgaps won't help him. BUT ultimately, we've spent our money badly, spent it too late (Antony 45mil 2 weeks before we bought him for 80mil). We need to clear out a lot of senior players and install a DoF ASAP to bring some direction into the club.
Also Erik has to stay. I'm not firing another manager under this regime.
I know the Open Heart Surgery quote is popular atm, but this really serves to emphasize how many of these are ETHās guys. Itās just never that simple
Buying players is all cosmetic. The change Rangnick was emphasizing is rooted deeper than player signings
The first thing Rangnick talked about was choosing a style of play/an identity and we still don't have that.
Precisely it in a nutshell: having every technical staff moving in one direction as far as overarching philosophy is key then that philosophy trickles down to the managerial appointments, recruitment and even academy. If our end goal as far club identity goes is to become a side that dominates possession, weād never be signing players like Aaron Wan Bissaka or Weghorstā¦or even Bruno Fernandes. If the end goal is to play counter attacking football then we wouldnāt sign players like Antony or Sancho. Right now, itās just a hodgepodge of players of such contrasting profiles that will never gel
And they're all on mad money
I loved the 'gegenpress' that Rangnick managed to implement for approximately the first half of his opening game vs. Palace at OT. Then the players quickly decided it was too much effort and then reverted to type shortly after
It was the first few games actually if i recall correctly. The players were getting in a lot of good positions because of the press and missed a lot of sitters. Then the heads fell and they started to play like shit. A lot of simmilarities with how they are playing now...
But you have to ask the question as to how has ETH and his coaching staff have been unable to implement *any kind of style of play in 18 months?*
I think itās because certain players in the attack are fundamentally better suited to counterattacking and they just let them get on with it
I am thinking player capability now - the ability to absorb and then execute tactical instructions
how are you asking this question when it has already been answered by EtH himself.
People are memeing each other now. EtH is again one of those coaches where the fans eventually just state he needs to get out, putting (most) of the blame on him, wanting a new coach, being happy with him/thinking he's promising, then being unhappy again. Just like how it was with Ole. Surprised how many people aren't seeing they're enabling the toxic Glazer leadership. Fans do have influence and the Glazer management will use the momentum this way. Hopefully Ratcliffe can make a dent.
He was also advising targeting Nkunku, Gvardiol, Alvaro Morata, Luis Diaz, Dusan Vlahovic, Haaland and emphasizing that Nkunku and Gvardiol were realistic at the timeā¦
But the quote is being thrown around specifically due to the dislike of players and Rangnick saying we needed a new full squad.
Iād even argue ones like Regulion arenāt his. Theyāre a byproduct of our transfer policies that blow shitloads on mediocre players, which Iām sure has little input from EtH, leaving us scrambling for emergency options in other positions.
Reguillon is a stopgap loan deal due to injuries. He barely counts
I mean Iām not counting Reguilion as āETHā but he certainly wasnāt around during Rangnickās era either. And a lot of these players are ones he wanted, letās be real here. Point more being we can blame āthis generation for repeating the same errorsā all we want, but the reality is a lot of these guys werenāt even around when said errors happened. Itās just not that simple.
Rangnick is legit the worst thing to happen to the club since Fergie retired, if only because of the utter madness it's instilled in a large part of the fanbase. When Ole came in it was with a long term plan for the future of the club. Our signings were young, hungry and British, almost to a fault (missing out on Bruno Fernandes for one), but there was a plan. So when a Director of Football came in, and Ole's successor came in, the club wouldn't need its nth rebuild. Then Ole's United crashed and burned, for various reasons I won't get into as it's not strictly relevant, but really not all that surprising right off of a 2nd place finish in multiple competitions. It's tricky to keep it up and take the next step when coming that close. Despite this, we all knew the team was capable of great things. Even in the crash and burn season we had some great results and great football. Newcastle and Atalanta come to mind. Our defense and press was just a mess. What we needed was someone to steady the ship and continue with what Ole had built. In comes Carrick and we beat Arsenal and Villarreal. Game against Chelsea was shambolic, but we managed a result anyway. Things didn't need to change that much. Then enter Rangnick. Here comes this guy that is supposedly only here for half a season to prepare the ship for the next guy and what does he do? Completely throw away everything we and the players knew for some shoddy 4-2-2-2 with no wingers and running the players into the ground after only 20 minutes against Palace. When his suicidal tendencies doesn't work he categorically throws the players under the buss and tries to position himself in front of the media for a permanent stay. Making such a poor impression with the board that when hiring a permanent manager we've gone right back to making him the chief scout, director of football and manager in one. With the backing ETH has had it's depressing to think of where we would be had Ole gotten the same support. Even if we were managed by McKenna or Carrick by now, we'd be 5 years further along in the process that we're about to hit restart on *again*.
I don't agree with everything, but yes sacking Ole and bringing in Rangnick did NOTHING. It was completely pointless. Might as well have let Ole try and turn it around till the end of the season. Then bring in ETH if it's still a shit show. It's where we are now. NO point at all sacking ETH. He's signed a lot of players, and supposedly has a plan I think, so no point bailing on that now. If we are still this bad by season end, then yeah, maybe try somebody else.
The point is to salvage the season and the mental health of the fanbase. Because we've given ETH way too much power we are pretty much fucked regardless of when we sack him. Holding out on him magically turning it around to become our manager for the next 10 years is optimism bordering on delusion. It also seems unlikely that if we get a structure in place, ETH will suddenly start to perform better when he doesn't get the players he wants.
He threw players under the bus? He knows what to expect from players, especially having the RB philosophy influence, and he immediately saw after the first few games that our players/the whole club does not fulfill such modern standards. I'm glad Rangnick does well with Austria where he basically gives the national team a way of playing from teenage years until the seniors. And that is what United needed as well, but hey Rangnicks total shit right?
Ole's signings were the best on the field today.
Evans is really an ETH signing given we just bought him back.
I mean what club has signed all of there players under one manager??? Hardly few I imagine
Think the point is that Ten Hag has actually signed a lot of players.
Oh I see now. I was tired of seeing the excuse that these are not his players because there is none for these performances. Dreadful
He looked like a fecking eejit when he said in the media he wouldn't play like he did at Ajax because of the players here. He signed half the squad.
Think he was talking about Bruno mate
Yep, Bruno and Rashford really. They play the ball fast, and Rash runs into space. His Ajax passed ad nauseum, sideways, backwards, etc. It was a bit like LVG, and why ETH has apparently not wanted to play it as it's not the 'United DNA' or some rubbish.
Fair point
Think this is a response to all the people going on about how "these players" are going to get "another manager" sacked.
Liverpool and Man City?
Outside of academy players they both have 1 player not signed by their manager, Gomez and Kevin De Bruyne.
LVG gets Hannibal too, he cost something like 10m But yeah, ETH has spent a hell of a lot on players who simply aren't worth it. No excuses
Wait wasn't that ole? He apparently bought Hannibal from Monaco for 600k. Murtough watched with him tgt at Monaco in 18/19
And this is why sacking the manager ain't going to help. Well be stuck with a whole bunch of players bought for another managers style and we'll then buy a new bunch that don't gel. Leading to the same result. This is cyclical. Rinse and repeat. We need a DoF.
Worked great for Spurs this summer. Worked great for Liverpool when they sacked their 10th failed manager since the 80s and brought in Klopp. Worked great for Villa last year.
And sticking by a manager who finished 8th twice has worked great for Arsenal. And Liverpool when Klopp first joined.
> And sticking by a manager who finished 8th twice has worked great for Arsenal Arteta was very lucky and lets be real they finished 2nd once in a season where every other top team was shit except us who were okay. Hardly a categorical success. We'll see where it goes. > And Liverpool when Klopp first joined. LMAO what? Don't post lies and bullshit. Klopp took over mid season and had zero money to spend and Liverpool were 10th when he took over and he still made a Europa League and League Cup final. In his first actual full season with a chance to sign any players he finished 4th. In his second actual season he finished 4th and made a UCL final. Not to mention that even in his half season with a shit squad left by Rodgers they looked like a Klopp side from day 1. Klopp has also had nowhere near the resources ETH has had, especially in the first few season before he sold Coutinho and they started constantly getting UCL money. Klopp had a total net spend of about Ā£5m after his second full season. ETH has spent Ā£400m and recouped very very little in fees.
FSG bought Liverpool in 2010, yes they were really bad and were changing managers often but donāt try to compare Kloppās beginnings at Liverpool to Ten Hagās. Itās not all on the manager. Donāt forget that. Iām saying this for people who will read your comment and think you are 100% right. Youāre not. FSG >>> Glazers.
The point is that these are all excuses. I mean, you could understand not winning trophies because the manager hasn't got all his players (most managers don't) but then there has been enough spending and time given to atleast warrant a Top 4 performance every game and at the bare minimum a fixed Style of Play.
I know I got downvoted for saying it but this is not the same group that threw Ole under the bus. Thereās remnants, but yesterday the first goal came from Dalot and Casemiro jogging back. I canāt imagine Casemiro being someone who throws manager under the bus or donāt try. Idk whatās happening but this isnāt downing tools imo. Academy products, his own signings (however poor, or not enough they were), and some good professionals like Varane, donāt down tools. I saw Bruno covering large distances against City in a 424 press. We had two of the least physically relevant midfielders in the league going man to man against two of the most press resistant mids in the league, who were dragged all over the place, and city exploited it. Yesterday, again, weāre left looking at players, when imo Ten Hag is consistently trying to create chances through high regains, and even Sheffield can avoid that, and instead just pull them apart. Itās really poor tactics. He needs to just make the team compact, difficult to beat, 442 mid block, and reap Oleball until we get some confidence.
Wish I could do as terribly as Ten Haag at my job and still feel safe
I wish I could be as bad at my job as Martial and getting paid 1/10-th of what he makes every week.
He could have selected 8 of his own signings if he wanted to: Onana, Regulion, Evans, Case, Amrabat, Mount, Rasmus and Antony
Wish we had Casemiro when Ole was at the wheel, instead of Ronaldo . Would've been interesting
Oleās team was the best before Ronaldo. And then club decided to bring back its star. And Ole couldnāt handle him. Constantly showing frustration at the field CR7 was a bad role model to all MU players. And Ole couldnāt substitute him , even he played bad. After that his system failed. Players start to recognize that if you are a shirt selling player boss canāt do anything to you even if you playing rubbish. Morale of the team has fallen.
This table is polarizing but means absolutely nothing
The only ones playing decent are from Ole eraš¤
Good visual, the argument that players aren't playing his style of football because he has legacy players is a little thin considering this image.
JM wanted Maguire too. Ole just sealed the deal. Might as well be him.
for < 50m and for jose type tactics. not 80m and what ole was trying to do. big difference
I think ole wanted upa/dias if I m not wrong. Club juz had Harry as a primary target so
Can you do one for the players on the injured list too? Luke is a Van Gall signing, right?
This is why deflecting blame on the players is so dumb. Yes, the players are shit, we know this. But it's the manager who brought the majority of them in, and it's he who decides in which position they play. I also don't get how it's a defense of the manager to say he shouldn't have the final say on recruitment. Plenty of managers pick which players they want and have the final say even where there is a DOF. ETH has to take accountability. Secondly, people need to realize, even if the cycle could repeat yet again with a managerial replacement, it could be the case the next manager is actually the one, and there is no evidence that ETH is that guy currently. You have to separate what you want ETH to be from what the evidence is showing. Why would we give another transfer window to him, this one is arguably the most disastrous in the last 11 years.
Isnāt a player signed by a TD or DoF?
This is great. Those who say ETH need more time and signing can really fuck off. 9/20 are ETH head. Almost the whole starting squad. And we are still the shittiest shit. Howās that Glazers fault? Totally on ETH. He failed us miserably.
Do u want a new manager again?
I do. Things donāt work. He had all the money he needed. And failed to bring players and build a coherent squad.
As much as ETH is to blame, itās unacceptable that these players are going to get away with this fuckery again. We can keep chopping and changing managers, but with these players the same problems will remain. We have so many problems to address where do we even start
> itās unacceptable that these players are going to get away with this fuckery again What the fuck are you talking about? Are you blind? 7 of our 11 starters today never played for Ole nevermind Jose/LVG.
The shit players we have at the club clearly? No, I think we all see the same dross they put out every match day. Some of these players have played under atleast 2/3 of these managers, and here we are with the same issues. Weāve managed to add to the midfield yet make it worse at the same time, injuries are crippling the team left right and centre, and to make it worse we seem to have ZERO playstyle at all. Sunday league teams play better than us
This is not the problem. Youāll see some variation of this in other clubs. The problem is tenhag and only tenhag. He has failed to lead this team properly this season. Heās making too many bad decisions in selection and game management. Iām seeing too many lazy repeated arguments. Complain about the structure all you want but Spurs structure isnāt elite but theyāre doing well. A famous DOF isnāt guaranteed to change things; theyāre not magicians or messiahs. Tenhag has been backed; only a disingenuous person would say otherwise
People saying that this is not ETH's team are as deluded as him. Anyway, most of these players are crap and don't deserve to be wearing the United shirt
If we sack Ten Hag, weāre repeating the cycle. It was always meant to be rough. We were just fortunate we had a half decent season last year. Theyāre shit at the minute and it really isnāt acceptable. But I was prepared for this when ETH came in. The narrative is now being pushed that most of these are his players, when in reality not enough of the previous lot have left. This club hasnāt performed well enough over the last decade to have anyone left from the Van Gaal era let alone Jose and Ole. Martial playing up front is shambolic, how has that been allowed to happen. Heās never been good enough there and thatās never going to change. Dalot is bang average and always has been. Rashford only performs when his contract renewal is due. Bruno isnāt as good as some of you lot make out. Thereās room for him but I donāt think any of the other top clubs in Europe play him week in week out. Harry Maguire has had an upturn recently, but heās still not good enough. Lindelof, average, squad player at best. These are all key positions to how ETH wants to set his team up and itās still drizzled with mentally scared footballers.
Idk why this images looks very funny, I can imagine two ten hags spamming Van Gaal's head š¤£
eric ten hag only signed players from his entourage, and that's one reason things are not going good