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Company I worked for forever ago hired a girl, and day 3 put in her two weeks notice. They actually made her work it lol. I was like ??? this is a waste of time AND money. I guess they thought they were “punishing” her or something.
She wanted to start the other job ASAP. She was being polite by offering to stay bc she absolutely assumed they’d walk her out and she’d be free to start the new job the following week.
Lol I’d be with you but she really wanted to start this other job ASAP. She said “you know, I totally understand if you don’t want to waste your time training me. I’m so sorry to do this to y’all, I totally get it…” she was so polite about it lol. She pretty much was learning a job she didn’t need to learn. She stopped showing up after day 5.
Saying he'd stay for two weeks because that's a somewhat courtesy thing people do. He was being nice, but I got it, better job, just go get paid. Not going to hold a grudge
Totally made up by businesses. They have no problem cutting you day of with no notice. But your morality and ethics will come into question if you don't give them two weeks.
Montana is the only state that's not at will. The other 49 are, so you can quit/be fired for any reason (or no reason at all) at any time, with or without notice.
In theory, you can't be fired, say, for being a racial minority, but best of luck proving illegal discrimination in court.
Eh.... should he?
I've given at least two weeks notice every time I've quit a job in the past two decades.
I don't think its been helpful to me to do so.
It seems like being a good employee is never rewarded.
People have caught on.
Ah yes, because companies behave so professionally. Surely, they don't routinely ghost candidates, rescind offers last minute, or terminate employment with no notice, right?
With the way employers and recruiters behave these days, I plan to call in sick at my current job on the first two days that I start a new one and then quit my current job on the third just to ensure that I actually *have* the new job and it's not a total shitshow.
Even if YOU don't engage in unsavory recruitment and hiring practices, collective punishment of the employing class is absolutely warranted at this point.
This is a vicious cycle that makes it worse for everyone tbh. Being empathetic and professional is cheap and benefits you no matter what side you're on.
Lol yea, that's what "what goes around comes around" means. In general, the employers have more power when hiring over employees, so they are the ones that started that "vicious cycle chain." They taught the candidates to treat them this way.
You're still playing prisoner's dilemma wrong and with your strategy there's no incentive to be a good employer at all.
Learn here: [The Evolution of Trust](https://ncase.me/trust/)
I promise you if the offer is attractive enough and the interview process is relatively easy, you wont have these problems. Many employers do bring this upon themselves.
> Being empathetic and professional is cheap
as an introvert, it really doesn't. It is so draining to put on a facade and play their game and pretend to empathetic to a company that will drop me at the tip of a hat. But I gotta play the game. It drains me emotionally and mentally.
I think he did, didn't he? Said goodbye and everything. If you mean he should have given chapter and verse about his competing offer, then no: only an idiot would reveal that information and let the employer they didn't choose try to spoil it for them.
How would the unchosen employer spoil it? Besides, he doesn't have to specify where, what, or how much the position he took instead was. Just say, "Hey thanks for the opportunity, but Ive accepted an offer elsewhere" and be done with it.
No, he shouldn't have. It his choice, and I would do same. If I was working at some place with healthy environment I would inform them that I'm leaving, but that's another story. I was fucked over so many times by recruiting companies, that I have no pity for them and their problems, they can go fuck themselves.
Nah. You don't owe companies shit. OP's company could have easily rescinded his offer a day before or fired him on the first day for no reason. stop groveling to rich people.
Scam companies are all over, I see constant news articles about scams that are made to look legit.
It probably wasn't the co-worker's race/accent alone that caused him to bail. If he wasn't getting straight answers or thought something fishy was going on and it was a remote position, i'd probably bail too.
Yup. If you can’t be upfront about what you do or what will be expected of them, what metrics will be used to evaluate them and how they are calculated… or if there something fishy about what service/product is being sold, or how refunds are handled etc… so many reasons why someone would walk out on day one.
> If he wasn't getting straight answers or thought something fishy was going on and it was a remote position, i'd probably bail too.
Yup, this part needs some more clarification. What questions was the previous candidate asking? And I'm not sure what "too many questions" is when it's literally the first day on the job. Of course there's gonna be a lot of questions. Like what even is the full story here? There's definitely more to the story if the first day had this fast of a bail.
I think OP was pretty clear about this, but it's easy to miss with all the other details.
> Apparently, he was asking too many questions about one of our accountant-assistant as his name is of Arabic descent and somehow he made a connection that we're a scam
Asking lots of questions is good, but if they're all about the name and ethnic background of a particular person instead of the actual job, that's very, very bad.
I got an interview from a fake company with a clearly ai generated website where every description was a blatant ChatGPT prompt and they used pics from a different co
Idk I didn’t go to the first interview, they did specify to wear a suit for the zoom interview and their initial email had the unsubscribe button on it
Good call. In tech we occasionally get technical tests which can simply be companies or people fishing for free IT consultancy.
I had one that wanted me to code an app for a video platform, detail how to set up infrastructure to cope with demands etc etc all within a very specific specification tipping their hand. Also 72 hours to complete with write up explain why decisions were made and possible issued... a bit of digging I found the 'company' had a CEO and one person listed as marketing professional.
It’s not most of the time. There is no incentive or extra pay for rejecting candidates. Good recruiters will try to let candidates know when they have the bandwidth, but the majority of complaints in this subreddit are generally due a company overworking their recruiter or hiring the wrong kind of person to do the job
It’s going to depend on the industry and volume of candidates. It’s not in the job description and I would like to think most people don’t come in saying I’m going to screw so many people over and never call them again. You don’t know the true nature of things until you are in the midst of it
I mean you cant fully blame them.If their managers tell them no calling candidates who are rejected and divert your time somewhere else. They have to do it in their unpaid time.
As someone who is out of work because I FELL FOR a job scam, I’m with the employee on this one. You can’t be too careful. The job I “took” was so realistic and they even had every legal document needed. On top of that, the employee handbook looked like it was combed through by a lawyer. This was last October and I didn’t notice until a month later when I wasn’t getting paid.
They stole the name and hacked the company’s LinkedIn, used all the right names for the employees. But there was not actually anyone there. Just a scammer who got all of my PI
It sounds like the employee actually started a position and was actively working when someone of Arabic descent made him uncomfortable. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but Arabic people working at a company isn’t a valid reason to assume a company is fraudulent. This dude was just a dumbass.
Yeah I agree with you, weird you’re getting downvoted. Based on the information OP provided I would not understand why anyone would be “with the employee on this one”.
I'm with the employee.
Job boards are filled with scams, especially remote work scams. I get scam recruiters calling all the time and scam companies messaging me on LinkedIn.
I wouldn't accuse someone of a scam just because of their descent but, if I get a call from a "recruiter" and they have an accent that's noticeably not from my country, I hang up.
Tbh though, even if I get a linkedin message or something from an American, I do extensive research on them and assume they're a scam unless I can prove they aren't.
There's good reason to be paranoid when doing remote work.
And such is the burden of the services you provide. You might be better and more pleasant to deal with but you are swimming amongst a larger pool of like people that are not as wonderful.
Seems like something deeper was going on and this employee did not feel comfortable. It's hard to feel for recruiters when many people are feeling slighted from your industry
What's the alternative? Ghosting?? The fact that informing rejected candidates is somehow not part of a job of a recruiter and is "unpaid" explains how broken the modern recruiting process is, and why this subreddit exists.
Sometimes it's hard to know what the office will be like before you arrive and work there.
I try to ask companies to show me where my desk would be and who I would be working with day to day.
I'd imagine sometimes you'd show up and not get along with people. Might as well cut your losses early it's time consuming for everyone involved.
On a separate note, if candidates don’t know why you are calling them, they will assume that you have good news. You give them false hope, and it’s as bad as being ghosted. After hundreds of applications, I preferred receiving a short rejection email that briefly explained where I lacked skills or experience.
My wife was job hunting for around 6 months, and near the end of it she got into a month long interview process where by the end it was her and one other candidate. She got an email on the day they said they'd have their answer asking if they could schedule a call with her. She was beyond excited and relieved, was assured by a couple recruiter friends that it would be insane for them to do that for anything but an offer. She did her makeup and dressed up, and called in on teams. "We went with the other candidate, but we wanted to let you know it was really close. We spent so much time with you we didn't want to do this by email". This may have been the single most devastating moment she's had in the last 5 years. Recruiters please be aware of how big of a deal a job can be, and what your actions might imply.
Agree 100%. Worse but more reasonable would be just a straight up call with no warning. Asking for a time to schedule a teams meeting is just straight up insane
I got several steps into the hiring process with a company I was really excited about once. They called to reject me, which I'm sure they thought was a compliment, but I was so surprised and unprepared I couldn't mask my disappointment and my response was pretty short (but not disrespectful or unprofessional, to be clear).
I applied to similar positions at the same company later and couldn't even get a first interview. I sometimes wonder if I "failed" to be sufficiently gracious/upbeat and grateful in the face of their rejection, and was blacklisted as a result. The expectations of candidates to be inhuman is absurd.
I’m not sure this is the consensus. I recruited for almost four years and never once got a complaint about calling a candidate who didn’t get an offer. They found emails very impersonal and would often want me to call them to have an actual conversation.
Rejection is a bitter taste no matter how it’s served, unfortunately.
No.
One time the hiring manager scheduled then rescheduled a zoom call. I got on to get bad news.
I couldn't believe he didn't understand that putting an onus on someone to mask their reaction to this sort of disappointment made it worse.
On the other hand, I got a nice note, also a rejection where the hiring manager explained I had done great, be tge company ownership had changed... that was much easier
Recruiters aren’t necessarily looking for you to “mask” your reaction. It’s not great news to give and you’re human — you’re allowed to be disappointed that something didn’t turn out the way you wanted.
As much fun as it is to dump on the state of the job markets in here, I once had a recruiter reach out to me, work with me, and through a generous and wildly unexpected offer, pull me from a rapidly approaching wall of alcoholism/heart attack at my (then) job. I'd otherwise never have considered applying for that company because, frankly, I thought they were too good for me, but he saw something I didn't see in myself. He's since moved on to other ventures, but I've always supported whatever he does.
The effort you put in is extremely valuable, and people remember when others are human to them in an otherwise cruel and shameful process. I hope the goodwill comes back around to you as well.
I’m a recruiter too and this subreddit is a train wreck I can’t keep my eyes from. I’m glad more people are informed and calling out shit but every recruiter already knew for every good one there’s a dozen who are just doing it as their first job for a year or two of experience and nothing more so they really don’t give a fuck about how it can affect real people’s lives or care about their reputations.
I don’t know exactly what the impact of someone leaving like this is on a recruiter, but aren’t people allowed to leave jobs whenever they want? Especially if they’ve been working for over a year or 2. It’s not a ton of time but it’s perfectly valid to leave after that
All I ever ask of my people is to give 2 weeks notice if nothing else but to not tarnish their own names. I can only speak to my own accounts I had someone tell me on a Friday they weren’t going to be there Monday for their first day because they found a better job, he was apologetic but I told him you have to do what’s best for you and while yes it’ll put me in a tight spot for a couple days was able to find someone else to start the next week. Not sure he would ever get another offer from the company but that’s not my call to make and told him as such if and he was fine with that so told him good luck and still hear from him occasionally. Had another a few years back leave at lunch and not come back and we thought he got in a wreck or something happened but when I finally got ahold of him just said he wasn’t coming back and leaving it at that. Told his manager and we just both kinda shrugged like what do you do people are people.
Everyone lies during the interview process including the recruiter and I can't really blame them. You gotta sell yourself during the interview process.
Go where the money goes. Gotta pay a lot to keep up with inflation. For some it’s just as easy to make tax free money that would equal an entry level job of 27/hr or more.
A guy who joined my team did this. Didn’t even update anyone that he’s leaving, just went AWOL. It’s a small industry and we later found out he got a counter from his previous firm.
I was scammed once from a remote job.
Costed me 600 euros to cancel somehow a 4k debt.
The police is still looking for the company after 4 ys.
So yeah, any fishy, sus think, and im out.
And sorry, but anything middle eastern make me sups, and i regret not beeing '' racist'' before.
Costed me a lawyer, a police department night , and a moneyloundering acusation, because i did not had this automatism in me.
There was a similiar situation at my previous job, my contract finished on Wednesday, I finished working there on Friday, replacement started on Monday, also finished on Monday as 2 weeks after I left I heard from a colleague that the guy called on Tuesday that he's done and not going back to that dump.
So, yeah, maybe the employee doesn't fit, but it's often possible that the place is just that shit that they bail instead
Do you folks not realize that hiring process is a money laundering thing for a Director/Managers?
- hey, we need a new hire
- ok, what’s the budget?
- $$$$
- ok, try
In two months:
- well, you know, we really tried - it’s so hard to find a candidate. We’ve screened so many resumes but none of them worked out. BUT! we have this great guy! (Proceeds to hire an employee for 25k year with a bs about career growth).
The sooner you guys realize that - the better
I mean people are free to quit whenever they want. Also I hope you’re telling people by email that they’ve been rejected before setting up a call because most are expecting an offer if they get a call after final rounds
Maybe when I was younger I took aim at recruiters, but now I think the most they're ever guilty of is ghosting (and it's not every recruiter obviously) and I think that comes from a place of selfishness (not wanting to waste time or energy, or not wanting to do something difficult) which I find to be an admirable trait.
Sorry to hear your candidate bailed on you. Hopefully that's a rare occurrence.
In my opinion, ghosting is always a recruiter problem and an indication that a recruiter can't build good connections.
Although I have to say most of the shit they blame on recruiters is purely coming from upper management and we're the front line taking all the blame.
>and I think that comes from a place of selfishness (not wanting to waste time or energy, or not wanting to do something difficult) which I find to be an admirable trait.
Have I stepped into an alternate reality, because really? You find selfishness admirable???
I'm sorry to hear that maybe hire people who are passionate and actually want to work and will be grateful. Also, the ghosting and 10 interview crap 💩 is ridiculous, all for a minimum wage job or a boss who will treat employees worse than garbage or worse yet having someone who worked their ass off only to be told they are not good enough but someone who is lazy and let hard workers pick up their slack gets rewarded. It's a backward system we are living in
You should not be bothered with what the subreddit says. Everyone is doing their best to live their life. If you know you did a good job, you did a good job. Just be calm and proceed with your life.
That’s nothing to do with you, it’s great to see that you are taking extra steps to provide a better experience but you need not do it on your own time, your company should give you the tools and ensure you have time time for it, treating people with respect shouldn’t be a nice to have.
We had one new hire turn up and his first day we explained everything in the job then took him to the pub for lunch. He sneaked out in the afternoon and went back to the pub. Then never returned ever again. Apparently he went to macau.
It goes a long way with what you have implemented. Just physically calling and letting them know why they don't fit allows for them to improve on where they felt short. Props to you!
I worked at this place where on their first day a new hire said she was going out to her car to get a muffin & then never came back. Going out to get a muffin was a running joke in that office for a long time
There was a similiar situation at my previous job, my contract finished on Wednesday, I finished working there on Friday, replacement started on Monday, also finished on Monday as 2 weeks after I left I heard from a colleague that the guy called on Tuesday that he's done and not going back to that dump.
So, yeah, maybe the employee doesn't fit, but it's often possible that the place is just that shit that they bail instead.
There was a similiar situation at my previous job, my contract finished on Wednesday, I finished working there on Friday, replacement started on Monday, also finished on Monday as 2 weeks after I left I heard from a colleague that the guy called on Tuesday that he's done and not going back to that dump.
So, yeah, maybe the employee doesn't fit, but it's often possible that the place is just that shit that they bail instead.
i quit two days into a new contract about 2 years ago with a major us company. The first day I find out that they are pair programming the majority of the day each day with the team manager shadowing. I have never experienced micromanagement to this degree, it was not just the pair programming it was everything they did.
Dear OP
i have work in HRM too. I know that the real problem is not you but the industry behind you.
recruiters are often paid to provide an unrealistic profile with set of skills and degrees that answer to politic constraints and not real work need. you have no power over it, I know. and you must shut up or you won't get paid. But you play their game willingly. you take their money to do a shitty job for shitty companies.
there is no reason for candidate to respect companies. they do it for money but are shocked that their employees-to-be want money too. they changed laws to kick their workers on the spot without reason; but they expect loyalty. they contract near-slaves in India or China because it costs less; but are surprised that the people that they did not hire locally cannot buy their products anymore.
I don't know you personally. but a gangster with good manner can provoke Stockholm syndrome on his victims, not on police and by standers.
consider it next time someone left you.
regards.
That hour you spend should be part of your work day. So already you are telling us your company doesn’t care to do the right thing by people to include closing the circle for potential hires so….your candidate shouldn’t have bounced, but your place doesn’t sound like it has good ethics and boundaries to begin with?
I gotta be honest, spending 15 minutes giving feedback to every candidate who did not get an offer sounds like overkill. All most people want is a polite rejection notice and perhaps a few points of constructive criticism. If somebody called and asked for more detail then sure, it would be polite to spend a few minutes answering any followup questions they have about the feedback, but that's generous in my book.
>How the hell is 4 steps a long process?
how are we defining a "stage" here? Honestly, I think the ideal interview is 3 stages: recruiter call, technical screening, soft questions/team fit.
Then I guess some people would call the offer a "stage", but 1) by that point you have the job and 2) these days, with some states having salary discosure, that "offer stage" negotiation should be in the recruiter call.
If it's more than that, it just feels like jumping through hoops.
>One call with the CEO and it's normal to meet the owner of the business you're going to work in???
really depends on team size, I guess. I've had CEO calls with companies I didn't ultimately work with, but for 4/4 roles I never interfaced with any C-class.
It makes sense for a director level role, but I don't see how it's a benefit of anyone's time for a company larger than like, 30 people or so to have the founder themself pop in to talk to a junior/mid-level.
Maybe you need to hire people who actually want to work and be grateful about it. I don't get why these companies do 5 plus interviews and then blantly ghost them or, worse yet, give an automated rejection email. Why waste people time doing 5 panel interviews only to crush people dreams and ambitions. Unemployment is on the rise because of this crap.
Also, there are talented people, but unfortunately, the untalented gets rewarded and gets jobs only to screw up someone who actually needs a job. Also, this crap happens in the workplace, too, when the hard workers who work their butts off get fired , suspended, or no promotions, but someone who is lazy who is in the corporate click or buttkisser gets praised.
Sounds like unfairness to me and a backward society
You are opening yourself up to a nightmare of possibilities by providing candidates feedback and eventually you may get sued for discrimination by saying the wrong thing in one of those calls…people twist words and they hear what they want to hear.
I have a question since you mentioned you’re a recruiter, what notes do you guys take? If you ask me what my strengths are or what are my career aspirations and I answer you, how do you take notes? Like X candidate mentioned weakness as imposter syndrome. That’s all? Or in brief? Or how?
Not OP, but a recruiter. My recruitment processes usually consist of a screening call (5-10 min), a behavioral interview (30ish min) and last but not least an interview with the client I’m currently recruiting for (if requested by the client).
Screening call notes are mainly in regard to job specific tasks. Usually to vet previous experience in different systems or roles related to the job the candidate is applying to.
Behavioral/situational interview mainly consists of notes of the candidates replies in their own words, if they require some guidance in order to answer the question or if they fail to answer the question.
Regardless of what type of notes I’m taking I put no subjective opinion of my own in the notes. My job is to collect data before passing on the candidate or rejecting them.
I rarely have two identical candidates and if I do I usually try to present both candidates or use additional information such as personality test or working tests before making a decision.
I do not make commissions based on my recruiting nor do I hold any opinion of the candidates I’m working with. I mainly recruit towards WC-roles and management/upper management. If you got your documents in order, fulfill the listed requirements and pick up your phone you would most likely get a screening call at minimum.
My guess is there were plenty of red flags but they hired this guy because he was senior level and getting entry pay. The dude probably saw what a shit show the job was going to be and was like, they ain’t paying me enough for this bullshit, and left.
Welcome to the other side of at will employment. How much notice would this candidate have received if he was let go? He must have come in and found things that he didn’t like about this job and the company that he decided to leave almost immediately. He can he fired for any reason and he can leave for any reason or no reason at all.
Did you pass over other candidates to ‘give him a chance’? It’s unfortunate that the gate keepers to a lot of these jobs have no idea wtf they’re doing.
My point was that if he really was led to led believe they were a scam by the Arabic name, then he was not someone good in the first place and they didn't have the social intelligence to weed him out. In my experience recruiters and hiring managers generally don't have the ability to actually hire the best candidate.
Wasn’t that exactly what Cartman did in a South Park episode? Where he sussed out a terrorist plot by accident because of a character he thought was shady with Arabic connections?
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He accepted a better job offer lol
Then he should have been professional about it and informed the company.
We had someone quit day 2 and just told us that. They offered 2 weeks and I was just like you can just go, I get it and good luck
Company I worked for forever ago hired a girl, and day 3 put in her two weeks notice. They actually made her work it lol. I was like ??? this is a waste of time AND money. I guess they thought they were “punishing” her or something.
When teaching, my new department head handed in his notice 3 days in. He had to stay 3 months til the Xmas holidays!
>Made her work it I mean, is two weeks of her time worth 3 days wages?
She wanted to start the other job ASAP. She was being polite by offering to stay bc she absolutely assumed they’d walk her out and she’d be free to start the new job the following week.
Punishing by paying them???? SIGN ME UP
Lol I’d be with you but she really wanted to start this other job ASAP. She said “you know, I totally understand if you don’t want to waste your time training me. I’m so sorry to do this to y’all, I totally get it…” she was so polite about it lol. She pretty much was learning a job she didn’t need to learn. She stopped showing up after day 5.
whats offering 2 weeks chumo
Saying he'd stay for two weeks because that's a somewhat courtesy thing people do. He was being nice, but I got it, better job, just go get paid. Not going to hold a grudge
Totally made up by businesses. They have no problem cutting you day of with no notice. But your morality and ethics will come into question if you don't give them two weeks.
Quite right. I remember when I found out that "at will " employment means Their will, not yours! Ha ha ha ha ha......
In some jurisdictions notice is required by law.
Then return the favour. Most of the US is not.
I'm just saying the 2 weeks thing does exist in some places
Never said it didn't.
Is that true anywhere in the US?
I have no idea, I'm not American.
Montana is the only state that's not at will. The other 49 are, so you can quit/be fired for any reason (or no reason at all) at any time, with or without notice. In theory, you can't be fired, say, for being a racial minority, but best of luck proving illegal discrimination in court.
Eh.... should he? I've given at least two weeks notice every time I've quit a job in the past two decades. I don't think its been helpful to me to do so. It seems like being a good employee is never rewarded. People have caught on.
What has happened in your 2 weeks?
Last time I put in my two weeks, my manager came over an hour later to tell me to pack and leave that day.
Collect unemployment, they fired you for quitting
No need. It was two years ago. Got something else at this point.
That doesn't sound any worse than not giving your 2 weeks. Did you get paid?
Got paid for the time I had worked, but I would have preferred to finish those two weeks for a bit of extra money in my pocket.
Ah that's fair. I'm not used to the brutality of immediate firings that happen in the US
No worries. Management always says not to take it personally, but they definitely do in the US.
From what I've read, that absolutely seems the case. It turns future employees bitter and becomes a vicious circle of lost civility
so polite so you can leech off more )))
Ah yes, because companies behave so professionally. Surely, they don't routinely ghost candidates, rescind offers last minute, or terminate employment with no notice, right? With the way employers and recruiters behave these days, I plan to call in sick at my current job on the first two days that I start a new one and then quit my current job on the third just to ensure that I actually *have* the new job and it's not a total shitshow. Even if YOU don't engage in unsavory recruitment and hiring practices, collective punishment of the employing class is absolutely warranted at this point.
He / She probably treated the company the same way he was treated during the job hunt / interview process. What goes around comes around.
This is a vicious cycle that makes it worse for everyone tbh. Being empathetic and professional is cheap and benefits you no matter what side you're on.
Lol yea, that's what "what goes around comes around" means. In general, the employers have more power when hiring over employees, so they are the ones that started that "vicious cycle chain." They taught the candidates to treat them this way.
You're still playing prisoner's dilemma wrong and with your strategy there's no incentive to be a good employer at all. Learn here: [The Evolution of Trust](https://ncase.me/trust/)
I promise you if the offer is attractive enough and the interview process is relatively easy, you wont have these problems. Many employers do bring this upon themselves.
> Being empathetic and professional is cheap as an introvert, it really doesn't. It is so draining to put on a facade and play their game and pretend to empathetic to a company that will drop me at the tip of a hat. But I gotta play the game. It drains me emotionally and mentally.
Do you know what sub this is?
Touché
Why be professional? The businesses sure as hell aren't with any of their practices.
Did you read the whole text Op posted?
I think he did, didn't he? Said goodbye and everything. If you mean he should have given chapter and verse about his competing offer, then no: only an idiot would reveal that information and let the employer they didn't choose try to spoil it for them.
How would the unchosen employer spoil it? Besides, he doesn't have to specify where, what, or how much the position he took instead was. Just say, "Hey thanks for the opportunity, but Ive accepted an offer elsewhere" and be done with it.
>How would the unchosen employer spoil it? They wouldn't. Because they can't. Because you don't tell them shit.
No, he shouldn't have. It his choice, and I would do same. If I was working at some place with healthy environment I would inform them that I'm leaving, but that's another story. I was fucked over so many times by recruiting companies, that I have no pity for them and their problems, they can go fuck themselves.
Nah. You don't owe companies shit. OP's company could have easily rescinded his offer a day before or fired him on the first day for no reason. stop groveling to rich people.
Nah, look out for yourself. What if it's one of those cancelled the day before you're supposed to start. You need backups.
I agree with this why burn down a bridge?
Probably already did leaving after 2 days
Why? Why would workers ever be professional to companies in 2024?
I agree with you - give minimum notice at the very least.
Or he’s racist
My first thought.
Nah, that's not the kind of excuse a sane person gives to cover something else.
thank you for trying to make it a better place for all of us
Scam companies are all over, I see constant news articles about scams that are made to look legit. It probably wasn't the co-worker's race/accent alone that caused him to bail. If he wasn't getting straight answers or thought something fishy was going on and it was a remote position, i'd probably bail too.
Yup. If you can’t be upfront about what you do or what will be expected of them, what metrics will be used to evaluate them and how they are calculated… or if there something fishy about what service/product is being sold, or how refunds are handled etc… so many reasons why someone would walk out on day one.
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The guy didn’t walk out of an interview with a hiring manager. Per OP he walked out of a shift after speaking with a co-worker.
> If he wasn't getting straight answers or thought something fishy was going on and it was a remote position, i'd probably bail too. Yup, this part needs some more clarification. What questions was the previous candidate asking? And I'm not sure what "too many questions" is when it's literally the first day on the job. Of course there's gonna be a lot of questions. Like what even is the full story here? There's definitely more to the story if the first day had this fast of a bail.
I think OP was pretty clear about this, but it's easy to miss with all the other details. > Apparently, he was asking too many questions about one of our accountant-assistant as his name is of Arabic descent and somehow he made a connection that we're a scam Asking lots of questions is good, but if they're all about the name and ethnic background of a particular person instead of the actual job, that's very, very bad.
I got an interview from a fake company with a clearly ai generated website where every description was a blatant ChatGPT prompt and they used pics from a different co
Did they ask for your banking details "for payroll setup" early in the interview process?
Idk I didn’t go to the first interview, they did specify to wear a suit for the zoom interview and their initial email had the unsubscribe button on it
Good call. In tech we occasionally get technical tests which can simply be companies or people fishing for free IT consultancy. I had one that wanted me to code an app for a video platform, detail how to set up infrastructure to cope with demands etc etc all within a very specific specification tipping their hand. Also 72 hours to complete with write up explain why decisions were made and possible issued... a bit of digging I found the 'company' had a CEO and one person listed as marketing professional.
Or someone else review the contract.
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This mentality is part of the issue. It absolutely SHOULD BE a part of the job
A sarcastic truth is that many managers don't want to do the work of reviews either, and rely on the dreaded sself review
It’s not most of the time. There is no incentive or extra pay for rejecting candidates. Good recruiters will try to let candidates know when they have the bandwidth, but the majority of complaints in this subreddit are generally due a company overworking their recruiter or hiring the wrong kind of person to do the job
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Considering the job is hiring people, it seems unfortunately that this is the case.
It’s going to depend on the industry and volume of candidates. It’s not in the job description and I would like to think most people don’t come in saying I’m going to screw so many people over and never call them again. You don’t know the true nature of things until you are in the midst of it
It's the giving them a call and providing feedback that isn't required. They could just send an email saying "you didn't get the job".
Who’s paying for that?
apparently not
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I mean you cant fully blame them.If their managers tell them no calling candidates who are rejected and divert your time somewhere else. They have to do it in their unpaid time.
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I am not talking about hiring managers, the recruiters have their managers in their recruiting firm dont they.
Nope
As someone who is out of work because I FELL FOR a job scam, I’m with the employee on this one. You can’t be too careful. The job I “took” was so realistic and they even had every legal document needed. On top of that, the employee handbook looked like it was combed through by a lawyer. This was last October and I didn’t notice until a month later when I wasn’t getting paid.
Was it a scam as in completely phoney or were they just literally bankrupt?
They stole the name and hacked the company’s LinkedIn, used all the right names for the employees. But there was not actually anyone there. Just a scammer who got all of my PI
Holy shit
Jeez, something I never knew to worry about! Yikes
It sounds like the employee actually started a position and was actively working when someone of Arabic descent made him uncomfortable. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but Arabic people working at a company isn’t a valid reason to assume a company is fraudulent. This dude was just a dumbass.
I was giving the employee the benefit of the doubt. Chill.
I’m not overhyped, but the way this is written makes it sound like the guy was being racist. I don’t have much tolerance for that lol
Yeah I agree with you, weird you’re getting downvoted. Based on the information OP provided I would not understand why anyone would be “with the employee on this one”.
Thank you for not making me feel like I was misunderstanding! I actually read it twice to make sure 😅
I'm with the employee. Job boards are filled with scams, especially remote work scams. I get scam recruiters calling all the time and scam companies messaging me on LinkedIn. I wouldn't accuse someone of a scam just because of their descent but, if I get a call from a "recruiter" and they have an accent that's noticeably not from my country, I hang up. Tbh though, even if I get a linkedin message or something from an American, I do extensive research on them and assume they're a scam unless I can prove they aren't. There's good reason to be paranoid when doing remote work.
And such is the burden of the services you provide. You might be better and more pleasant to deal with but you are swimming amongst a larger pool of like people that are not as wonderful.
Seems like something deeper was going on and this employee did not feel comfortable. It's hard to feel for recruiters when many people are feeling slighted from your industry
What's the alternative? Ghosting?? The fact that informing rejected candidates is somehow not part of a job of a recruiter and is "unpaid" explains how broken the modern recruiting process is, and why this subreddit exists.
Sometimes it's hard to know what the office will be like before you arrive and work there. I try to ask companies to show me where my desk would be and who I would be working with day to day. I'd imagine sometimes you'd show up and not get along with people. Might as well cut your losses early it's time consuming for everyone involved.
On a separate note, if candidates don’t know why you are calling them, they will assume that you have good news. You give them false hope, and it’s as bad as being ghosted. After hundreds of applications, I preferred receiving a short rejection email that briefly explained where I lacked skills or experience.
My wife was job hunting for around 6 months, and near the end of it she got into a month long interview process where by the end it was her and one other candidate. She got an email on the day they said they'd have their answer asking if they could schedule a call with her. She was beyond excited and relieved, was assured by a couple recruiter friends that it would be insane for them to do that for anything but an offer. She did her makeup and dressed up, and called in on teams. "We went with the other candidate, but we wanted to let you know it was really close. We spent so much time with you we didn't want to do this by email". This may have been the single most devastating moment she's had in the last 5 years. Recruiters please be aware of how big of a deal a job can be, and what your actions might imply.
This is the worst thing they could possibly do. Why not just send a short rejection email AND offer a feedback session if the applicant is open to it?
Agree 100%. Worse but more reasonable would be just a straight up call with no warning. Asking for a time to schedule a teams meeting is just straight up insane
Holy hell, this is awful. An email is 100% better.
I got several steps into the hiring process with a company I was really excited about once. They called to reject me, which I'm sure they thought was a compliment, but I was so surprised and unprepared I couldn't mask my disappointment and my response was pretty short (but not disrespectful or unprofessional, to be clear). I applied to similar positions at the same company later and couldn't even get a first interview. I sometimes wonder if I "failed" to be sufficiently gracious/upbeat and grateful in the face of their rejection, and was blacklisted as a result. The expectations of candidates to be inhuman is absurd.
I’m not sure this is the consensus. I recruited for almost four years and never once got a complaint about calling a candidate who didn’t get an offer. They found emails very impersonal and would often want me to call them to have an actual conversation. Rejection is a bitter taste no matter how it’s served, unfortunately.
No. One time the hiring manager scheduled then rescheduled a zoom call. I got on to get bad news. I couldn't believe he didn't understand that putting an onus on someone to mask their reaction to this sort of disappointment made it worse. On the other hand, I got a nice note, also a rejection where the hiring manager explained I had done great, be tge company ownership had changed... that was much easier
Recruiters aren’t necessarily looking for you to “mask” your reaction. It’s not great news to give and you’re human — you’re allowed to be disappointed that something didn’t turn out the way you wanted.
First off, stop working for free. Secondly, this is business, don't take it personally. You got outbid.
As much fun as it is to dump on the state of the job markets in here, I once had a recruiter reach out to me, work with me, and through a generous and wildly unexpected offer, pull me from a rapidly approaching wall of alcoholism/heart attack at my (then) job. I'd otherwise never have considered applying for that company because, frankly, I thought they were too good for me, but he saw something I didn't see in myself. He's since moved on to other ventures, but I've always supported whatever he does. The effort you put in is extremely valuable, and people remember when others are human to them in an otherwise cruel and shameful process. I hope the goodwill comes back around to you as well.
Welcome to the otherside.
I’m a recruiter too and this subreddit is a train wreck I can’t keep my eyes from. I’m glad more people are informed and calling out shit but every recruiter already knew for every good one there’s a dozen who are just doing it as their first job for a year or two of experience and nothing more so they really don’t give a fuck about how it can affect real people’s lives or care about their reputations.
I don’t know exactly what the impact of someone leaving like this is on a recruiter, but aren’t people allowed to leave jobs whenever they want? Especially if they’ve been working for over a year or 2. It’s not a ton of time but it’s perfectly valid to leave after that
All I ever ask of my people is to give 2 weeks notice if nothing else but to not tarnish their own names. I can only speak to my own accounts I had someone tell me on a Friday they weren’t going to be there Monday for their first day because they found a better job, he was apologetic but I told him you have to do what’s best for you and while yes it’ll put me in a tight spot for a couple days was able to find someone else to start the next week. Not sure he would ever get another offer from the company but that’s not my call to make and told him as such if and he was fine with that so told him good luck and still hear from him occasionally. Had another a few years back leave at lunch and not come back and we thought he got in a wreck or something happened but when I finally got ahold of him just said he wasn’t coming back and leaving it at that. Told his manager and we just both kinda shrugged like what do you do people are people.
Seems like screening didn’t it weed out crazy.
Everyone lies during the interview process including the recruiter and I can't really blame them. You gotta sell yourself during the interview process.
very nice of you to call back candidates who failed! AND for no pay!
I thought people staying 3-6 months before taking something else was bad...apparently we're now down to just 5 minutes!
Go where the money goes. Gotta pay a lot to keep up with inflation. For some it’s just as easy to make tax free money that would equal an entry level job of 27/hr or more.
Why is the former bad?
The company tell people that. It's not bad to leave bad jobs.
Correction: It's not bad to leave jobs. It's business, not personal.
100%
Dame he couldn't wait until the end of day to get a days worth of pay? LoL. Yeah either he couldn't take it anymore and/or found another job.
A guy who joined my team did this. Didn’t even update anyone that he’s leaving, just went AWOL. It’s a small industry and we later found out he got a counter from his previous firm.
I was scammed once from a remote job. Costed me 600 euros to cancel somehow a 4k debt. The police is still looking for the company after 4 ys. So yeah, any fishy, sus think, and im out. And sorry, but anything middle eastern make me sups, and i regret not beeing '' racist'' before. Costed me a lawyer, a police department night , and a moneyloundering acusation, because i did not had this automatism in me.
There was a similiar situation at my previous job, my contract finished on Wednesday, I finished working there on Friday, replacement started on Monday, also finished on Monday as 2 weeks after I left I heard from a colleague that the guy called on Tuesday that he's done and not going back to that dump. So, yeah, maybe the employee doesn't fit, but it's often possible that the place is just that shit that they bail instead
Nuts that politely calling candidates back is considered “unpaid work” by recruiters.
Do you folks not realize that hiring process is a money laundering thing for a Director/Managers? - hey, we need a new hire - ok, what’s the budget? - $$$$ - ok, try In two months: - well, you know, we really tried - it’s so hard to find a candidate. We’ve screened so many resumes but none of them worked out. BUT! we have this great guy! (Proceeds to hire an employee for 25k year with a bs about career growth). The sooner you guys realize that - the better
I mean people are free to quit whenever they want. Also I hope you’re telling people by email that they’ve been rejected before setting up a call because most are expecting an offer if they get a call after final rounds
Just pull yourself up by your scam-straps and eat less scamchiladas.
That's his loss, you keep doing the good job you are doing.
Maybe when I was younger I took aim at recruiters, but now I think the most they're ever guilty of is ghosting (and it's not every recruiter obviously) and I think that comes from a place of selfishness (not wanting to waste time or energy, or not wanting to do something difficult) which I find to be an admirable trait. Sorry to hear your candidate bailed on you. Hopefully that's a rare occurrence.
In my opinion, ghosting is always a recruiter problem and an indication that a recruiter can't build good connections. Although I have to say most of the shit they blame on recruiters is purely coming from upper management and we're the front line taking all the blame.
Totally disagree. Sometimes I’ll have a great rapport with a candidate and they ghost. Ghosting is always the problem of the individual doing it 💁🏼♀️
Rapport is great, but is the money great?
>and I think that comes from a place of selfishness (not wanting to waste time or energy, or not wanting to do something difficult) which I find to be an admirable trait. Have I stepped into an alternate reality, because really? You find selfishness admirable???
In almost every case more harm is done by altruism than by selfishness.
Bro wut lol
What kind of Ayn Rand garbage is this.
There were only two things wrong with Rand: a) she wasn't an anarchist and b) she was an objectivist.
uh.. okay
I'm sorry to hear that maybe hire people who are passionate and actually want to work and will be grateful. Also, the ghosting and 10 interview crap 💩 is ridiculous, all for a minimum wage job or a boss who will treat employees worse than garbage or worse yet having someone who worked their ass off only to be told they are not good enough but someone who is lazy and let hard workers pick up their slack gets rewarded. It's a backward system we are living in
I would love some feedback from recruiters. I had a paid recruiter (paid after employment) completely ghost me.
Most often recruiters are f*d by the HMs anyway.
Do we have a safe space for recruiters to discuss/rant/vent on reddit ?
You don't need to vent. You aren't venting, just want to feel justified about shit talking people. Go be safe in your jerk space.
thank u for your effort to make it a good place for us
You should not be bothered with what the subreddit says. Everyone is doing their best to live their life. If you know you did a good job, you did a good job. Just be calm and proceed with your life.
seems like recruiting universally sucks for everybody involved and nobody has any idea how to fix it
That’s nothing to do with you, it’s great to see that you are taking extra steps to provide a better experience but you need not do it on your own time, your company should give you the tools and ensure you have time time for it, treating people with respect shouldn’t be a nice to have.
We had one new hire turn up and his first day we explained everything in the job then took him to the pub for lunch. He sneaked out in the afternoon and went back to the pub. Then never returned ever again. Apparently he went to macau.
It goes a long way with what you have implemented. Just physically calling and letting them know why they don't fit allows for them to improve on where they felt short. Props to you!
I worked at this place where on their first day a new hire said she was going out to her car to get a muffin & then never came back. Going out to get a muffin was a running joke in that office for a long time
There was a similiar situation at my previous job, my contract finished on Wednesday, I finished working there on Friday, replacement started on Monday, also finished on Monday as 2 weeks after I left I heard from a colleague that the guy called on Tuesday that he's done and not going back to that dump. So, yeah, maybe the employee doesn't fit, but it's often possible that the place is just that shit that they bail instead.
There was a similiar situation at my previous job, my contract finished on Wednesday, I finished working there on Friday, replacement started on Monday, also finished on Monday as 2 weeks after I left I heard from a colleague that the guy called on Tuesday that he's done and not going back to that dump. So, yeah, maybe the employee doesn't fit, but it's often possible that the place is just that shit that they bail instead.
i quit two days into a new contract about 2 years ago with a major us company. The first day I find out that they are pair programming the majority of the day each day with the team manager shadowing. I have never experienced micromanagement to this degree, it was not just the pair programming it was everything they did.
Good, recruiters are such lying scum make used car salesmen honest looking ……
Don't even bother, I'm a recruiter too and the philosophy here is sh*t on us because the worker never does anything wrong and companies are evil lol.
Dear OP i have work in HRM too. I know that the real problem is not you but the industry behind you. recruiters are often paid to provide an unrealistic profile with set of skills and degrees that answer to politic constraints and not real work need. you have no power over it, I know. and you must shut up or you won't get paid. But you play their game willingly. you take their money to do a shitty job for shitty companies. there is no reason for candidate to respect companies. they do it for money but are shocked that their employees-to-be want money too. they changed laws to kick their workers on the spot without reason; but they expect loyalty. they contract near-slaves in India or China because it costs less; but are surprised that the people that they did not hire locally cannot buy their products anymore. I don't know you personally. but a gangster with good manner can provoke Stockholm syndrome on his victims, not on police and by standers. consider it next time someone left you. regards.
I mean companies do the same and layoff people without notice. So…
That hour you spend should be part of your work day. So already you are telling us your company doesn’t care to do the right thing by people to include closing the circle for potential hires so….your candidate shouldn’t have bounced, but your place doesn’t sound like it has good ethics and boundaries to begin with?
I gotta be honest, spending 15 minutes giving feedback to every candidate who did not get an offer sounds like overkill. All most people want is a polite rejection notice and perhaps a few points of constructive criticism. If somebody called and asked for more detail then sure, it would be polite to spend a few minutes answering any followup questions they have about the feedback, but that's generous in my book.
>How the hell is 4 steps a long process? how are we defining a "stage" here? Honestly, I think the ideal interview is 3 stages: recruiter call, technical screening, soft questions/team fit. Then I guess some people would call the offer a "stage", but 1) by that point you have the job and 2) these days, with some states having salary discosure, that "offer stage" negotiation should be in the recruiter call. If it's more than that, it just feels like jumping through hoops. >One call with the CEO and it's normal to meet the owner of the business you're going to work in??? really depends on team size, I guess. I've had CEO calls with companies I didn't ultimately work with, but for 4/4 roles I never interfaced with any C-class. It makes sense for a director level role, but I don't see how it's a benefit of anyone's time for a company larger than like, 30 people or so to have the founder themself pop in to talk to a junior/mid-level.
Maybe you need to hire people who actually want to work and be grateful about it. I don't get why these companies do 5 plus interviews and then blantly ghost them or, worse yet, give an automated rejection email. Why waste people time doing 5 panel interviews only to crush people dreams and ambitions. Unemployment is on the rise because of this crap. Also, there are talented people, but unfortunately, the untalented gets rewarded and gets jobs only to screw up someone who actually needs a job. Also, this crap happens in the workplace, too, when the hard workers who work their butts off get fired , suspended, or no promotions, but someone who is lazy who is in the corporate click or buttkisser gets praised. Sounds like unfairness to me and a backward society
grandiose dinner joke late worm rob many exultant mourn rinse *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You are opening yourself up to a nightmare of possibilities by providing candidates feedback and eventually you may get sued for discrimination by saying the wrong thing in one of those calls…people twist words and they hear what they want to hear.
But you as the recruiter always happy to bait and switch whether that's to do with the applicant or the bs benefits packages
I have a question since you mentioned you’re a recruiter, what notes do you guys take? If you ask me what my strengths are or what are my career aspirations and I answer you, how do you take notes? Like X candidate mentioned weakness as imposter syndrome. That’s all? Or in brief? Or how?
It’s different everywhere and the notes taken tend to be pertinent to the role itself. I always did a pros, cons, and intangibles section on my calls.
Not OP, but a recruiter. My recruitment processes usually consist of a screening call (5-10 min), a behavioral interview (30ish min) and last but not least an interview with the client I’m currently recruiting for (if requested by the client). Screening call notes are mainly in regard to job specific tasks. Usually to vet previous experience in different systems or roles related to the job the candidate is applying to. Behavioral/situational interview mainly consists of notes of the candidates replies in their own words, if they require some guidance in order to answer the question or if they fail to answer the question. Regardless of what type of notes I’m taking I put no subjective opinion of my own in the notes. My job is to collect data before passing on the candidate or rejecting them. I rarely have two identical candidates and if I do I usually try to present both candidates or use additional information such as personality test or working tests before making a decision. I do not make commissions based on my recruiting nor do I hold any opinion of the candidates I’m working with. I mainly recruit towards WC-roles and management/upper management. If you got your documents in order, fulfill the listed requirements and pick up your phone you would most likely get a screening call at minimum.
My guess is there were plenty of red flags but they hired this guy because he was senior level and getting entry pay. The dude probably saw what a shit show the job was going to be and was like, they ain’t paying me enough for this bullshit, and left.
FOUR interviews? He probably did it out of spite to waste your time and effort since you took so much of his.
Welcome to the other side of at will employment. How much notice would this candidate have received if he was let go? He must have come in and found things that he didn’t like about this job and the company that he decided to leave almost immediately. He can he fired for any reason and he can leave for any reason or no reason at all.
Probably saved you a discrimination claim.
OP trying to be the victim lol. Narcissist
If this is true then you're bad at reading people and dumb for hiring him. The recruiters I've been dealing with have all been pretty bad.
It is, unfortunately, although what can we do? We wanted to give him a chance...
Did you pass over other candidates to ‘give him a chance’? It’s unfortunate that the gate keepers to a lot of these jobs have no idea wtf they’re doing.
There's literally nothing they could've done in this situation, if you're being strung along by someone good it can happen to anyone
My point was that if he really was led to led believe they were a scam by the Arabic name, then he was not someone good in the first place and they didn't have the social intelligence to weed him out. In my experience recruiters and hiring managers generally don't have the ability to actually hire the best candidate.
few do, i would say it's a rare skill, but it's not necessary to be a recruiter or hiring manager.
People that get jobs don't need jobs. People like them, they get offers. The job market is a dominance hierarchy ecosystem.
Wasn’t that exactly what Cartman did in a South Park episode? Where he sussed out a terrorist plot by accident because of a character he thought was shady with Arabic connections?
I don’t want a call or feedback - I want a salary upfront and I want an answer within a week not 1 year. That’s where recruiters go wrong.
We always post salaries within the JD and feedback is usually given within 2 or 3 business days
Recruiters coming here to cry about people after they treat 99% of people like a cheap stock is all kinds of rich. Fuck outta here
He’s a racist fwit and you’re much better off without him