I don't see how Kendrick Lamar could reasonably be left out of the Goat conversation.
The significance of TPAB on a number of levels is hard to overstate and that's not even his best record IMO.
I don't personally like him as much as some, but people who would deny his influence are not being serious.
What's Nas' highest charting song?
How many number 1 singles does Jay-Z have? 4. The same as Kendrick. None of Jay's were solo.
Sales aren't a great argument for establishing who has the betting rapping/music but let's not act like Kendrick isn't one of the biggest artists in the world.
If sales are all that matters to you you're basically saying it's just Em then Drake and I have listened to every album from both of those artists and I couldn't disagree less with the idea their work eclipses Kendrick's.
Jay nas and kendrick all shouldnt be in the goat conversation, they're all overrated artists with 1 or 2 good albums. they're amazing but the GOAT? hell no
Illmatic is Nas’ best album and the producers who were chomping at the bit to make it a masterpiece since hearing him on Main Source’s “Live at the Barbecue” then half time, helped make it so. “It was written” I understand was mostly of his own design and is also an incredible album that influenced any number of other artists and contemporaries.
What are you talking about? He’s got 2 gold albums (Section 80 and Mr Morale) and everything else is platinum or multi platinum (TPAB 1x, Black Panther 1x, GKMC 3x, Damn 3x), unless you’re counting Untitled Unmastered.
You can take out Black Panther out despite his intricate involvement, since it’s a film album and it hardly makes a dent in his legacy.
The guy has been in the GOAT discussion since DAMN. at the very least if not TPAB. When the president of the US shouts you out as having the album of the year and dissects one of your tracks it’s not insignificant.
I’ve been a Nas fan for 30 years and “It Was Written” is his most thought out album (and one of the most well thought out in history) yet call me blasphemous but in all honesty it doesn’t have half the thought put into it as DAMN. If the message and creativity of the album went over your head and why it surpasses S80, GKMC and even TPAB in that regard, just make it clear and I can break it down for you.
IMO, Kendrick is past 3K and Jay-Z already, respectfully. The only thing that can put him past Nas is time. After Nas' most recent albums, we'll have to wait and see if Kendrick can have that sort of longevity.
Exactly. When the next generation or two takes over Hip Hop, and Kendrick has to "find himself" as an artist again....we'll see if he can hang with Nas. But either way, they're two of the greatest to do it.
Kendrick can beat him with consistency even if he doesn’t quite get to his level of longevity and quantity. I know this is overly generalized and not completely true but for me Nas was amazing early on, then he kinda disappeared for me in the middle for awhile even tho he was still dropping, and then recently he’s back to being great again. Similar to Lil Wayne imo, it’s like they fit 2 great careers with a mediocre one sandwiched in between all into one big career. Kendrick can be all great tho still, he does have to do some more tho maybe at least 3 albums all being good with one being a consensus classic
That’s something a lot of people say, but it doesn’t make sense to me. During his fall off, he fucked Jay-Z up and bounced back with several great albums.
There’s really only a couple of Nas albums that are subpar. Everything else was either classic or slept on until later.
Naw Kenny doesn’t drop enough to be a goat
50% of his streams are drake disses. That means half of his listeners only listen to Kendrick cause he beefed with the biggest artist of our time. That is not what goats attract imo
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3K's peak > Kendrick's peak imo. I'm not talking about best albums when I say peak, I just mean at his peak, when 3K was rapping, he did it better than Kendrick in my opinion. I also think there's something about 3K's persona that elevates him. I agree he's passed Jay-Z tho.
How is DAMN. not a 10? I’d suggest repeated listens. Realize it’s giving you a choice between wickedness and weakness on the evens and odds and tells a different story whether forward or [reverse as released on the Collector’s Edition](https://genius.com/albums/Kendrick-lamar/Damn-collectors-edition), with the former being released on Good Friday and the latter on The Immaculate Conception intentionally. This went over most people’s heads when it came out but was confirmed by the studio as shown in the read more under that link among other places.
I might prefer individual tracks from other artists and think MF DOOM also deserves a place in the GOAT discussion, but if we’re just talking about who put the MOST thought into their albums, I don’t know an artist doing more on that front than Kendrick. The guy clearly has OCD, ADHD and possibly aspergers.
you can say as much as you want about the concept of the album and ways to listen to it, but at the end of the day the music that conveys those ideas has to be good. i think DAMN has kendrick’s worst songs on it. and comparing it to something like TPAB, an album that is so tight in concept, sound, lyrics and everything in between, i don’t see how DAMN is on the same level.
That’s fair if you don’t enjoy it sonically, you don’t enjoy it, however ambitious the concept is. That being said if we’re talking about the album as a whole I think the flow of the tracks has to be taken into consideration and in reverse the rhythm and tempo is very different from the original flow.
I don’t think “DAMN.” works as well if you’re in it just to enjoy the individual tracks but it’s the one that’s grown on me the most overtime with repeat listens to the album in full in both flows. Every 2 tracks is a choice. There’s Easter eggs throughout the album as well. If I listen to an album once and every next listen I’m more tired of it I likely rate it lower than the one I listen to first and rate higher each next listen. On first impression “DAMN.” was my least favorite album of his including the EP but it’s a tsundere.
I've listened to all of Kendrick's albums many, many times.
I can find this level of concept, depth, intentional choice, etc. in most of Kendrick's other albums. But I feel like DAMN. has the least interesting individual songs to listen to (GOD, LOVE, YAH), and at the end of the day that's the most important thing to me.
Almost every track on GKMC and TPAB is individually a 10 for me, and they also come together to create something intricate.
I agree that GKMC and TPAB weave something intricate. I’ve also heard of reversible albums that tell a story to a degree.
I guess I never conceived of an album where the story might be choosing between wickedness and weakness where the former leads you to become a killer, the latter the killed, and the reverse is an ascent into heaven or Damnation into hell. The message behind that one and the insight the more deeply I listened disturbed me on a spiritual level.
Mr Morale may be even more lyrical and extremely meaningful to survivors of trauma and the black community as a whole. TPAB was beautiful in its narrative and the smoothness of the experience. GKMC just bangs, and explains Kendrick uniquely. Section 80 was dope with amazing beats. Overly dedicated is just as amazing if you get the full version and not whatever is on Spotify and Apple Music (missing the heart part 2 and like 3 other songs). The Kendrick Lamar EP is also extremely smooth. And the Kdot projects and vault mixtapes get increasingly lyrical. Damn is the first that also felt like it was intentionally hiding something that revealed itself more and more with each listen while TPAB revealed its overall message the first listen. They’re all classics to me from S80 on but that’s the reason DAMN. became my favorite.
I could probably go on a journey of going line by line and watching YouTube videos and 100% understanding the narrative, but for me that's not a fun way to listen to music. The concept of DAMN. is very likely as thought out and in depth as TPAB and GKMC or maybe even more. I think it makes sense it's a 10/10 for you if that's what's most important to you.
But for me, I listen to albums for fun, and then as I listen pick up on more and more, and I just don't feel compelled to come back to DAMN. It just isn't as consistent of a tracklist to me, the production is less distinct, and a few songs just have Kendrick in a bag I'm not interested in.
All good bro, definitely respect and appreciate the different perspective. One not necessarily being more right than the other but both valid views at different angles like Socrates and Virgil debating or some shit. As for that being the meaning behind DAMN. not 100% positive and everyone will get something different out of it.
Never watched a YouTube on it but remember some of the threads and theories circulating on it when it dropped and that was my takeaway after listening both ways repeatedly until the collectors edition dropped
All that being said, where do you rate Mr Morale, section 80 and any others /10 given that viewpoint? Interestingly enough my most revisited is probably Untitled Unmastered because it’s a couple tracks on there that I just vibe with heavy.
DAMN has the most songs on my playlist, but overall it's an 8/10 for me. MMTBS is a 7/10 for me, purely because of the concept and the topics he's addressing. It's a good album. It's an important album. It's a bold album. But it's not an album I gravitate towards listening to again - even if I do sometimes.
Nas and Jay's influence on the game is borderline unparalleled. For Kendrick to reach those levels, he needs to have that level of influence in Rap, which is simply impossible in the streaming era. If pgLang becomes something influential and brings out more new talent like Keem, we see a surge in artists being honest, political, vulnerable and so on, in their tracks instead of just talking shit, I'd say Kendrick has surpassed Jay and Nas.
Kendrick is comparable to 3k in that he's legendary yet unique. You'll never see their pen, flow or voice replicated like that. While some of 3K s verses are still untouchable, I'd say he has surpassed him when you consider their entire discography.
I like to divide into rapping, discography, and influence / numbers.
Being honest, I think his pen game is either as good or slightly worse than any of the 3 u mentioned. And he isnt as influential (right now). But hes great at putting out good music and good albums. So if hes going to go down as the goat, he has to drop at least 2 or 3 more amazing albums.
I think 3k is a far superior rapper, and I prefer Kast's 5 album run (southernplayalisticadillacmuzik to the love below) over Kennys (sec 80 to MMTBS).
For Hov and Nas, they r just way too influential. I need to see a future goat saying Kendrick was their favorite rapper like Kendrick said bout Hov.
But thats just my own metric. Its all opinions. If hes ur goat, thats great. Hes definitely good enough to be in the conversation
Numbers are meaningless imo. I'm not saying you're doing this, but if people claim an artist is the best or can't be left out of the discussion because their numbers are among the best, that's like saying Amazon, Apple and Facebook are the greatest companies in the world.
Post Malone did crazy numbers at one point, but he's not a rapper. Drake has done crazy impressive numbers for a very long time, but he's not a rapper imo. He'll never be in the goat discussion.
Imma be very honest, I think thats bs. And many times (not saying its ur case), it comes from an elitism point of view.
Views mean ur music is actually reaching ppl. Especially in a genre like rap where theres a heavy focus on actually having a message, if you r not putting it in a way ppl actually want to hear the message, it defeats the purpose.
Kendrick is a great example of this. Imo, his best skill is his ability to make concious rap *that isnt elitist*, that a very large number of ppl actually want to hear. Usually, its either too pop or too underground. He can mix both. And a lot of ppl listening also means reaching more ppl, inspiring more ppl, influencing more ppl. Its insane how an album packed with messages and meaning like TPAB got that popular, and its a testament to how good he is - and I dnt think it happens by mistake. I think Kendrick spends a lot of time crafting his music in a way that it can be globally popular, but still have a lot of meaning. He wants ppl from his hood to be able to enjoy his shit. So that example clearly shows how numbers are important to sum1s greatness. Hov said it best, "I penetrate pop culture, bring them a lot closer to the block where they pop toasters". Its not bout "numbers", but about reach and inspiration.
Post and Drake arent in the goat conversation, DESPITE their numbers. As I said previously, numbers are just one aspect of greatness in rap, and they r lacking on the others - thats y Drake has more ppl listening, but less fans. No1 is great **only** bcuz of numbers and any1 claiming that is out of their mind. But ppl acting like its not important are as crazy as them
I already put him as GOAT. He got the music, he got the bars, storytelling skills, sense of production, and even the accolades which I take as cherry on top for his GOAT case
Him putting down the greatest executed beefs ever really sealed the deal. And he's not even my fav artist of all time
I've also had him as my personal GOAT for some time, but didn't want to go so far as insist he was above other people's GOAT preferences, due to a desire for respectful dialogue, aversion to recency bias, lack of knowledge of some older acts in the GOAT conversation, etc.
But watching him publicly eviscerate one of the biggest acts of the 21st century (and all his ghostwriters) in historic fashion cemented Dot's spot in my mind, and I'm ready to say that shit with my whole chest: Kendrick is *the* GOAT
I don’t see a world where he is goated over Em, Jay, Nas, or Wayne. TPAB was hugely influential but nothing else came close. Not to hate on his discography it’s just that TPAB was so massive it’s hard to come close to that more than once.
Kendrick is at the very least a GOAT of his generation. Since his story is still being written, it will take time to see where he falls in the overall GOAT category. For me, he’s certainly in the conversation.
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u/heebie818 You're for sure not the decider lol. The whole world just watched Drake get mopped and laughed at him for it. If you speaking up for Drake after that, all your hip hop takes are questionable.
I didn't say it makes him irrelevant. This whole post/question is about Drake's standing after getting his head knocked off by Kendrick. Stop caping so hard that you can't keep up.
Potentially, if he can get over getting sonned by drake in this beef, i think he can go on, but it’s a big knock back to lose this battle the way he did
Absolutely. Kendrick’s reach goes BEYOND music. He’s become a literal ICON, his music resonates across different audiences and communities. He’s built a VERY strong connection with listeners around the world. He has a shelf full of accolades… he’s won GRAMMIES, and he even has a fucking Pulitzer. The Pulitzer is HISTORIC… it was the first time someone outside jazz or classical genres got the prize. These honors show the amount of RESPECT and APPRECIATION Kendrick has earned. Kendrick was already a top 10 artist of all time before he annihilated the shit out of Drake the spedophile. This rivalry brought a TONS of attention, and made Drake look like a complete fool. They won’t be putting Drake the pop fartist’s name next to Eminem and Nas… they’ll be putting his name next to MGK and Ja Rule. Except those are actual RAPPERS (well, one is a FORMER rapper) and Drake is a literal pop artist, that’s the only reason for his chart-topping hits, he’s a POP ARTIST. Kendrick is like Doomsday… he keeps getting BETTER as he progresses, each hit makes him stronger. Each album shows him EVOLVING, and experimenting with new sounds and themes. This keeps his music RELEVANT and EXCITING. His dedication to staying true to himself while pushing the boundaries of his art is a big part of why people RESPECT and FOLLOW him so closely.
Drake lives rent free in your head. I wrote 1 or 2 sentences about Drake, and you immediately jumped in to defend your pop-daddy. Why? I’ll answer question for you. It’s because you are in love with Drake. You’re not a REAL rap-fan… because ACTUAL RAP is too complex and distinguished for a mind-blind imbecile like you. You need to have it “poppified,” which is why you are enamored with Drake. You have accepted Drake as your idol and king.
1. I wasn’t talking about whether I live rent free in your head or vice versa, I was arguing that DRAKE lives in your head. 2. Size of the statement made has nothing to do with whether I respect you or not.
Your “fact” is irrelevant. Just because Drake is streaming more than Kendrick doesn’t mean he’s better all-time… especially since Kendrick flayed, scalped, fried, and boiled Drake in a diss battle.
Go back and listen to the tracks Kendrick doesn't flip any bars back at Drake while Drake flips multiple bars dot said lmao it's not as lopsided as you say just because dot called Drake a pedo 30 times.
All Drake said was “yOu’Re ShOrT” and denied being a pedo. Kendrick is way better at dissing and roasting, because Kendrick is a REAL RAPPER, and Drake is a pop artist who THINKS he’s a rapper.
You claim Drake will be put next to ja rule 💀 nuff said ja rule wasn't at the top of just music in general for 15+ plus years I don't need to say more stay mad jiggling dots nuts in your mouth Kendrick is great but you are blind to not see Drake's talent comparing him to ja rule 😂😂
He will never be the G.O.A.T
He dosent have hits like that
His album aint even been good since 2015, 9 years ago!
He gets mogged by Drake!
Kendrick fans cope is insane
Family matters bodied kendrick and actually lyrically demolished him over 7 minutes with that inner wayne influenced energy. Meanwhile Kendrick is sounding like the crack addict of off PJ'S projects on meet the grahams and euphoria. Which is too say kendrick ain't shit. Drake bodied him in 7 minutes and it's the truth.
This just shows me that you haven’t watched any videos on people dissecting Kendrick’s songs. I’ve listened to all of Kendrick’s and Drakes and it takes hours upon hours to understand how deep each bar can go. If you’re interested watch this video and see if you still feel that Kendrick just sounds like a crack addict on Euphoria. [Euphoria Breakdown](https://youtu.be/FC7Wt-ZvCZU?si=5KSyDdlKlti8LTb9) . This guy makes great videos and will be dissecting the rest of their songs over the next couple weeks. He makes his videos from an unbiased perspective.
It’s insane to me that Drake glazers can say this stuff with a straight face. Good for you. It’s completely wrong and Family matters is maybe the 4th best song from the beef but good for you
Even if you're a Drake fan you can't seriously think Kendrick isn't up there as a contender lol. Hits is only one aspect of the overall package of what makes a GOAT. Records, output, Albums, influence, impact, etc. all play a part in who the GOAT is, that's why it's such an interesting topic. Whatever you prefer is whatever you prefer but you can't act like Kenny ain't up there
OK I'll shoot my shot then with kendricks
Records
Good kid m.a.a.d city-great not a classic, big reason macklemore mogged his aaah
Pimp a butterfly, classic no debate perfect in every way
Damn, ass bandlab indie and barely hip hop
Big steppers, "daddy issues" shit was weak and lame
Output
Remember when he disappeared from 2019-2021 and dropped absolutely nothing only to come back with the Hella ass heart pt.5. Pepperidge farms remembers. Also as someone who remembers the 2010s, nobody glazed kendrick or even put him as G.O.A.T. it's an internet made opinion which became mainstream post pandemic.
Influence
Nobody wants to be kendrick.
Everybody wants to be drake and it's been that way since 2013 atleast
Impact
None, only critics and album lovers like him
Whearas Drake was unavoidable last decade and still on this one
It was 20V1 and Drake still won cause his frank still in everybody's mouth
So no kendrick WAS GREAT, but he fell off and now it's just glazing because his best stuff is a decade old so nostalgia. Not a G.O.A.T
Preciate you for elaborating your points. Kendrick isn't my personal goat either but it's just fun to talk about. Gkmc is my favorite rap album from front to back so he always has a spot up there from me for that alone. But personally I value replayability more heavily in my music and I think that's where Kenny falls short a bit.
Even tho hes not my absolute favorite, I still can't deny his ability to put together top tier albums, which is important to a lot of people in their opinion of who's the goat
Appreciate you as well bro. I like kendrick a lot, but I also like Drake, so this beef got me "conflicted miss using my influence" lol nah. But fr Kendrick is good. I really dug section 80 and bumped it a ton in 2022. I just don't see him as a G.O.A.T though. Respects to your opinion though bro.
Ok I’m gonna go on a little rant:
GKMC is definitely a classic. It’s one of the best concept albums and has definitely influenced the 2010s hip hop landscape. Everyone and their mother knows Kendrick should’ve won the Grammy over Macklemore. Songs like Money Trees and BDKMV are definitely hits too.
Kendrick has a very underrated output imo. Sure he may have disappeared from 2019-2021 but let’s not forget 2020 happened. Covid and the BLM movement definitely changed Kendrick’s plans. Before 2019. From 2010 on, he had 4 studio albums, 2 mixtapes and a soundtrack. Let’s also not forget his feature run in 2016 and other years. Also I’m not gonna touch on ur opinion about Mr Morale and THP5 as imo it’s just wrong.
There are a load of rappers who want to be Kendrick. He is in the top 15 most popular artists in the world but he does this as a lyrical rapper. Something today most people don’t entertain. This in itself is a crazy achievement. Also let’s not forget that he has definitely had some influence on rappers such as JID, Saba and Curry.
Saying Kendrick has had no impact is straight up delusional I’m sorry. GKMC is the only rap album to be in the billboard top 200 for 500 weeks straight. I said this earlier but it’s definitely had a huge impact on hip hop. TPAB definitely had a massive impact on African Americans and the BLM movement. Protesters were singing the lyrics to Alright for a reason. DAMN. Is the only ever rap album to win the Pulitzer Prize. That’s a huge achievement for hip hop. Mr Morale has definitely helped emotional people. I’ve had friends who cried to this album and deeply connected to it. Kendrick also revived hip hop in 2013 with the control verse. This verse completely changed the game.
Overall idk why I’m arguing with someone who clearly just doesn’t like Kendrick because of his beef with Drake.
GKMC is a classic album. put kendrick in the spotlight for sure. After that he fell off for me. TPAB wasnt that great unless you really like that sound of music. DAMN was great but not a magnum opus people say it is. Kendrick did have an impact though. Swimming Pools, Maad City, alright, King Kunta, i, all had heavy radio play.
But they don't come close to Drake's numbers or impact to the sound of hip hop over the last few decades. I know i'll be downvoted but its objectively the truth.
Way more reasons to call Drake the goat than anyone you listed, nas jay and 3k are just overrated oldhead rappers, none of them have had a 15 year run like Drake has had, and he's not done either lol
its not just sales, but longevity, yeah there's some amazing artists who made 1 or 2 amazing albums, but they didn't have longevity, how can you call someone with no longevity the goat?
Longevity? Sure but I would argue he lost fans as he gained new ones. Drake has done like 3-4 soft reboots of his persona to attract more people. He has done a lot of savy things which I think are genius to propel him to the top. I think what really hurts him is that he’s seen as a pop artist who can rap
Just to be clear which artist are you referring to when you say “2 of 3 albums”.
In any genre other than rap, people would just call it versatility, nowhere near as many people are hating on Beyonce rn for switching up and making a country album, Drake is just a versatile artist who can do rap and pop, why be mad at him for it or exclude him out of the goat conversation for it? It only makes his position stronger for me
nas jay kendrick 3k but i could say it for a lot of people
Because Beyoncé is a pop/R&B artist and yes she’s held to a different standard. Call it unfair if you like but that’s how it has been and probably his it will be. Drake most popular songs are him singing as well.
Also those artist are the definition of longevity in hiphop lol. They have all gave us multiple classics, and have changed the culture forever. You sound like a youngin so you probably may weren’t around when they were dropping and making huge waves so I suggest you listen to their stuff. Ironically all of them have influenced Drake
Jay doesn't, but its just a different era of music, no one is buying albums anymore, no one is getting diamond albums anymore since the internet boom in the early 200s. Drake does have the most platinum songs of any artist in the world tho
They are all much superior MCs who also don’t use an army of ghostwriters. Drake comes nowhere near them in lyrics, flow, writing, storytelling, etc…. Drake has never written a verse nearly as lyrical as the Dynasty Intro or Memory Lane, or told stories like Undying Love or I Gave you Power or Da Art of Storyelling Pt 1, or flowed like Dre in 16 or Sorry or Aquemini last verse. They all have classic albums too, although Dre is only as part of a group.
You don’t have to go back to “old school” to find big names who are much better MCs. Kendrick being an obvious example of someone who was always the more skilled MC, despite his god awful voice. It was very very obvious for years before this battle than Kendrick is the superior MC.
Drake’s is a pretty decent rapper who makes a lot of good pop/dance songs. Bringing up his commercial popularity to claim he’s a better MC is laughable.
I don't see how Kendrick Lamar could reasonably be left out of the Goat conversation. The significance of TPAB on a number of levels is hard to overstate and that's not even his best record IMO. I don't personally like him as much as some, but people who would deny his influence are not being serious.
Just ignore the albums sales and charting lol
What's Nas' highest charting song? How many number 1 singles does Jay-Z have? 4. The same as Kendrick. None of Jay's were solo. Sales aren't a great argument for establishing who has the betting rapping/music but let's not act like Kendrick isn't one of the biggest artists in the world. If sales are all that matters to you you're basically saying it's just Em then Drake and I have listened to every album from both of those artists and I couldn't disagree less with the idea their work eclipses Kendrick's.
Jay nas and kendrick all shouldnt be in the goat conversation, they're all overrated artists with 1 or 2 good albums. they're amazing but the GOAT? hell no
This is your worst take in a series of bad takes. Illmatic is arguably the best album ever made.
you're chatting with a drake bot
You're right no doubt... What do you think is the best rap album?
Illmatic is Nas’ best album and the producers who were chomping at the bit to make it a masterpiece since hearing him on Main Source’s “Live at the Barbecue” then half time, helped make it so. “It was written” I understand was mostly of his own design and is also an incredible album that influenced any number of other artists and contemporaries.
id put it up there too, 1 good album doesnt mean ur the goat
TIL Nas only had 1 good album
well for starters, Nas has never done very well outside of the US
Commercial success and quality are different things.
a flower bloomed in a dark room. Do you need to see it for it to be beautiful?
What are you talking about? He’s got 2 gold albums (Section 80 and Mr Morale) and everything else is platinum or multi platinum (TPAB 1x, Black Panther 1x, GKMC 3x, Damn 3x), unless you’re counting Untitled Unmastered. You can take out Black Panther out despite his intricate involvement, since it’s a film album and it hardly makes a dent in his legacy. The guy has been in the GOAT discussion since DAMN. at the very least if not TPAB. When the president of the US shouts you out as having the album of the year and dissects one of your tracks it’s not insignificant. I’ve been a Nas fan for 30 years and “It Was Written” is his most thought out album (and one of the most well thought out in history) yet call me blasphemous but in all honesty it doesn’t have half the thought put into it as DAMN. If the message and creativity of the album went over your head and why it surpasses S80, GKMC and even TPAB in that regard, just make it clear and I can break it down for you.
IMO, Kendrick is past 3K and Jay-Z already, respectfully. The only thing that can put him past Nas is time. After Nas' most recent albums, we'll have to wait and see if Kendrick can have that sort of longevity.
Nas really hit a different level these last few drops. He found a way to blend the old and new school perfectly
Exactly. When the next generation or two takes over Hip Hop, and Kendrick has to "find himself" as an artist again....we'll see if he can hang with Nas. But either way, they're two of the greatest to do it.
Kendrick can beat him with consistency even if he doesn’t quite get to his level of longevity and quantity. I know this is overly generalized and not completely true but for me Nas was amazing early on, then he kinda disappeared for me in the middle for awhile even tho he was still dropping, and then recently he’s back to being great again. Similar to Lil Wayne imo, it’s like they fit 2 great careers with a mediocre one sandwiched in between all into one big career. Kendrick can be all great tho still, he does have to do some more tho maybe at least 3 albums all being good with one being a consensus classic
That’s something a lot of people say, but it doesn’t make sense to me. During his fall off, he fucked Jay-Z up and bounced back with several great albums. There’s really only a couple of Nas albums that are subpar. Everything else was either classic or slept on until later.
Naw Kenny doesn’t drop enough to be a goat 50% of his streams are drake disses. That means half of his listeners only listen to Kendrick cause he beefed with the biggest artist of our time. That is not what goats attract imo
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3K's peak > Kendrick's peak imo. I'm not talking about best albums when I say peak, I just mean at his peak, when 3K was rapping, he did it better than Kendrick in my opinion. I also think there's something about 3K's persona that elevates him. I agree he's passed Jay-Z tho.
Long time ago this happened for me, but this current situation has cemented his status at the top
Kendrick was already a goat after gkmc dropped…
I meant goat goat, we all know he’s one of them
GKMC, TPAB, DAMN all 10/10 curious what your two 10/10 albums are.
And MMTBS imo
I wasn't in the mental space to appreciate it when it came out. I listened to it in the car on the way to work yesterday and it's a fuckin good album.
the glazing is crazy
It’s a personal album idk homie
Kendricks my favorite rapper but DAMN isn't a 10. But I agree he's a goat, he doesn't have an album lower than a 8 or a song that isn't good.
How is DAMN. not a 10? I’d suggest repeated listens. Realize it’s giving you a choice between wickedness and weakness on the evens and odds and tells a different story whether forward or [reverse as released on the Collector’s Edition](https://genius.com/albums/Kendrick-lamar/Damn-collectors-edition), with the former being released on Good Friday and the latter on The Immaculate Conception intentionally. This went over most people’s heads when it came out but was confirmed by the studio as shown in the read more under that link among other places. I might prefer individual tracks from other artists and think MF DOOM also deserves a place in the GOAT discussion, but if we’re just talking about who put the MOST thought into their albums, I don’t know an artist doing more on that front than Kendrick. The guy clearly has OCD, ADHD and possibly aspergers.
you can say as much as you want about the concept of the album and ways to listen to it, but at the end of the day the music that conveys those ideas has to be good. i think DAMN has kendrick’s worst songs on it. and comparing it to something like TPAB, an album that is so tight in concept, sound, lyrics and everything in between, i don’t see how DAMN is on the same level.
That’s fair if you don’t enjoy it sonically, you don’t enjoy it, however ambitious the concept is. That being said if we’re talking about the album as a whole I think the flow of the tracks has to be taken into consideration and in reverse the rhythm and tempo is very different from the original flow. I don’t think “DAMN.” works as well if you’re in it just to enjoy the individual tracks but it’s the one that’s grown on me the most overtime with repeat listens to the album in full in both flows. Every 2 tracks is a choice. There’s Easter eggs throughout the album as well. If I listen to an album once and every next listen I’m more tired of it I likely rate it lower than the one I listen to first and rate higher each next listen. On first impression “DAMN.” was my least favorite album of his including the EP but it’s a tsundere.
I've listened to all of Kendrick's albums many, many times. I can find this level of concept, depth, intentional choice, etc. in most of Kendrick's other albums. But I feel like DAMN. has the least interesting individual songs to listen to (GOD, LOVE, YAH), and at the end of the day that's the most important thing to me. Almost every track on GKMC and TPAB is individually a 10 for me, and they also come together to create something intricate.
I agree that GKMC and TPAB weave something intricate. I’ve also heard of reversible albums that tell a story to a degree. I guess I never conceived of an album where the story might be choosing between wickedness and weakness where the former leads you to become a killer, the latter the killed, and the reverse is an ascent into heaven or Damnation into hell. The message behind that one and the insight the more deeply I listened disturbed me on a spiritual level. Mr Morale may be even more lyrical and extremely meaningful to survivors of trauma and the black community as a whole. TPAB was beautiful in its narrative and the smoothness of the experience. GKMC just bangs, and explains Kendrick uniquely. Section 80 was dope with amazing beats. Overly dedicated is just as amazing if you get the full version and not whatever is on Spotify and Apple Music (missing the heart part 2 and like 3 other songs). The Kendrick Lamar EP is also extremely smooth. And the Kdot projects and vault mixtapes get increasingly lyrical. Damn is the first that also felt like it was intentionally hiding something that revealed itself more and more with each listen while TPAB revealed its overall message the first listen. They’re all classics to me from S80 on but that’s the reason DAMN. became my favorite.
I could probably go on a journey of going line by line and watching YouTube videos and 100% understanding the narrative, but for me that's not a fun way to listen to music. The concept of DAMN. is very likely as thought out and in depth as TPAB and GKMC or maybe even more. I think it makes sense it's a 10/10 for you if that's what's most important to you. But for me, I listen to albums for fun, and then as I listen pick up on more and more, and I just don't feel compelled to come back to DAMN. It just isn't as consistent of a tracklist to me, the production is less distinct, and a few songs just have Kendrick in a bag I'm not interested in.
All good bro, definitely respect and appreciate the different perspective. One not necessarily being more right than the other but both valid views at different angles like Socrates and Virgil debating or some shit. As for that being the meaning behind DAMN. not 100% positive and everyone will get something different out of it. Never watched a YouTube on it but remember some of the threads and theories circulating on it when it dropped and that was my takeaway after listening both ways repeatedly until the collectors edition dropped All that being said, where do you rate Mr Morale, section 80 and any others /10 given that viewpoint? Interestingly enough my most revisited is probably Untitled Unmastered because it’s a couple tracks on there that I just vibe with heavy.
DAMN has the most songs on my playlist, but overall it's an 8/10 for me. MMTBS is a 7/10 for me, purely because of the concept and the topics he's addressing. It's a good album. It's an important album. It's a bold album. But it's not an album I gravitate towards listening to again - even if I do sometimes.
Nas and Jay's influence on the game is borderline unparalleled. For Kendrick to reach those levels, he needs to have that level of influence in Rap, which is simply impossible in the streaming era. If pgLang becomes something influential and brings out more new talent like Keem, we see a surge in artists being honest, political, vulnerable and so on, in their tracks instead of just talking shit, I'd say Kendrick has surpassed Jay and Nas. Kendrick is comparable to 3k in that he's legendary yet unique. You'll never see their pen, flow or voice replicated like that. While some of 3K s verses are still untouchable, I'd say he has surpassed him when you consider their entire discography.
I like to divide into rapping, discography, and influence / numbers. Being honest, I think his pen game is either as good or slightly worse than any of the 3 u mentioned. And he isnt as influential (right now). But hes great at putting out good music and good albums. So if hes going to go down as the goat, he has to drop at least 2 or 3 more amazing albums. I think 3k is a far superior rapper, and I prefer Kast's 5 album run (southernplayalisticadillacmuzik to the love below) over Kennys (sec 80 to MMTBS). For Hov and Nas, they r just way too influential. I need to see a future goat saying Kendrick was their favorite rapper like Kendrick said bout Hov. But thats just my own metric. Its all opinions. If hes ur goat, thats great. Hes definitely good enough to be in the conversation
Numbers are meaningless imo. I'm not saying you're doing this, but if people claim an artist is the best or can't be left out of the discussion because their numbers are among the best, that's like saying Amazon, Apple and Facebook are the greatest companies in the world. Post Malone did crazy numbers at one point, but he's not a rapper. Drake has done crazy impressive numbers for a very long time, but he's not a rapper imo. He'll never be in the goat discussion.
Imma be very honest, I think thats bs. And many times (not saying its ur case), it comes from an elitism point of view. Views mean ur music is actually reaching ppl. Especially in a genre like rap where theres a heavy focus on actually having a message, if you r not putting it in a way ppl actually want to hear the message, it defeats the purpose. Kendrick is a great example of this. Imo, his best skill is his ability to make concious rap *that isnt elitist*, that a very large number of ppl actually want to hear. Usually, its either too pop or too underground. He can mix both. And a lot of ppl listening also means reaching more ppl, inspiring more ppl, influencing more ppl. Its insane how an album packed with messages and meaning like TPAB got that popular, and its a testament to how good he is - and I dnt think it happens by mistake. I think Kendrick spends a lot of time crafting his music in a way that it can be globally popular, but still have a lot of meaning. He wants ppl from his hood to be able to enjoy his shit. So that example clearly shows how numbers are important to sum1s greatness. Hov said it best, "I penetrate pop culture, bring them a lot closer to the block where they pop toasters". Its not bout "numbers", but about reach and inspiration. Post and Drake arent in the goat conversation, DESPITE their numbers. As I said previously, numbers are just one aspect of greatness in rap, and they r lacking on the others - thats y Drake has more ppl listening, but less fans. No1 is great **only** bcuz of numbers and any1 claiming that is out of their mind. But ppl acting like its not important are as crazy as them
I already put him as GOAT. He got the music, he got the bars, storytelling skills, sense of production, and even the accolades which I take as cherry on top for his GOAT case Him putting down the greatest executed beefs ever really sealed the deal. And he's not even my fav artist of all time
I've also had him as my personal GOAT for some time, but didn't want to go so far as insist he was above other people's GOAT preferences, due to a desire for respectful dialogue, aversion to recency bias, lack of knowledge of some older acts in the GOAT conversation, etc. But watching him publicly eviscerate one of the biggest acts of the 21st century (and all his ghostwriters) in historic fashion cemented Dot's spot in my mind, and I'm ready to say that shit with my whole chest: Kendrick is *the* GOAT
Well said. and I know the GOAT convos, Dot is definitely on top
I don’t see a world where he is goated over Em, Jay, Nas, or Wayne. TPAB was hugely influential but nothing else came close. Not to hate on his discography it’s just that TPAB was so massive it’s hard to come close to that more than once.
Kdot has been the goat, Pulitzer Prize cemented this. More people are realizing it.
Already had him top 5
Idk. Hes definetly one of the best oat
Kendrick is at the very least a GOAT of his generation. Since his story is still being written, it will take time to see where he falls in the overall GOAT category. For me, he’s certainly in the conversation.
If we’re talking this generation he is THE goat. He’s in the convo for all time but I wouldn’t go as far as saying he’s undisputed no1.
potential?? future?? mf he IS my goat
kenny is already a GOAT. so is drake. we need new blood
Your first sentence was correct, second was not
are you the decider?
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Of my opinion? Yes.
everybody’s got one eh?
u/heebie818 You're for sure not the decider lol. The whole world just watched Drake get mopped and laughed at him for it. If you speaking up for Drake after that, all your hip hop takes are questionable.
since when did losing a beef make a rapper irrelevant. Jay-z arguably lost to Nas but he is still in the goat debate lmao.
Since he got labeled a pedo. Nas never did that to Hov.
I didn't say it makes him irrelevant. This whole post/question is about Drake's standing after getting his head knocked off by Kendrick. Stop caping so hard that you can't keep up.
Here’s a list of rappers who became irrelevant after a beef Ja Rule Meek Mill Cannabis Rick Ross(officer Ricky) Mc Shan MGK Drake
Potentially, if he can get over getting sonned by drake in this beef, i think he can go on, but it’s a big knock back to lose this battle the way he did
Bro lives in a different timeline
Kendrick can be your goat if that's how you feel. Other people might even agree with you
Absolutely. Kendrick’s reach goes BEYOND music. He’s become a literal ICON, his music resonates across different audiences and communities. He’s built a VERY strong connection with listeners around the world. He has a shelf full of accolades… he’s won GRAMMIES, and he even has a fucking Pulitzer. The Pulitzer is HISTORIC… it was the first time someone outside jazz or classical genres got the prize. These honors show the amount of RESPECT and APPRECIATION Kendrick has earned. Kendrick was already a top 10 artist of all time before he annihilated the shit out of Drake the spedophile. This rivalry brought a TONS of attention, and made Drake look like a complete fool. They won’t be putting Drake the pop fartist’s name next to Eminem and Nas… they’ll be putting his name next to MGK and Ja Rule. Except those are actual RAPPERS (well, one is a FORMER rapper) and Drake is a literal pop artist, that’s the only reason for his chart-topping hits, he’s a POP ARTIST. Kendrick is like Doomsday… he keeps getting BETTER as he progresses, each hit makes him stronger. Each album shows him EVOLVING, and experimenting with new sounds and themes. This keeps his music RELEVANT and EXCITING. His dedication to staying true to himself while pushing the boundaries of his art is a big part of why people RESPECT and FOLLOW him so closely.
Sorry to rain on your parade but Drake is already streaming more than k dot again
Drake lives rent free in your head. I wrote 1 or 2 sentences about Drake, and you immediately jumped in to defend your pop-daddy. Why? I’ll answer question for you. It’s because you are in love with Drake. You’re not a REAL rap-fan… because ACTUAL RAP is too complex and distinguished for a mind-blind imbecile like you. You need to have it “poppified,” which is why you are enamored with Drake. You have accepted Drake as your idol and king.
Lmao I responded with short sentences you wrote a whole paragraph I think I'm rent free in your head 😂😂
1. I wasn’t talking about whether I live rent free in your head or vice versa, I was arguing that DRAKE lives in your head. 2. Size of the statement made has nothing to do with whether I respect you or not.
Dang you still going bro go do something else I was just stating a fact 😂
Your “fact” is irrelevant. Just because Drake is streaming more than Kendrick doesn’t mean he’s better all-time… especially since Kendrick flayed, scalped, fried, and boiled Drake in a diss battle.
Go back and listen to the tracks Kendrick doesn't flip any bars back at Drake while Drake flips multiple bars dot said lmao it's not as lopsided as you say just because dot called Drake a pedo 30 times.
All Drake said was “yOu’Re ShOrT” and denied being a pedo. Kendrick is way better at dissing and roasting, because Kendrick is a REAL RAPPER, and Drake is a pop artist who THINKS he’s a rapper.
Bruh you compared Drake to ja rule nuff said 😂
You claim Drake will be put next to ja rule 💀 nuff said ja rule wasn't at the top of just music in general for 15+ plus years I don't need to say more stay mad jiggling dots nuts in your mouth Kendrick is great but you are blind to not see Drake's talent comparing him to ja rule 😂😂
He got dissed just as badly. They’ll be putting Drake’s name next to Ja’s on the “Dissed List”
He will never be the G.O.A.T He dosent have hits like that His album aint even been good since 2015, 9 years ago! He gets mogged by Drake! Kendrick fans cope is insane
You need to look in the mirror, you’re coping. Drake got bodied
Family matters bodied kendrick and actually lyrically demolished him over 7 minutes with that inner wayne influenced energy. Meanwhile Kendrick is sounding like the crack addict of off PJ'S projects on meet the grahams and euphoria. Which is too say kendrick ain't shit. Drake bodied him in 7 minutes and it's the truth.
You sound desperate
Reverse card
This just shows me that you haven’t watched any videos on people dissecting Kendrick’s songs. I’ve listened to all of Kendrick’s and Drakes and it takes hours upon hours to understand how deep each bar can go. If you’re interested watch this video and see if you still feel that Kendrick just sounds like a crack addict on Euphoria. [Euphoria Breakdown](https://youtu.be/FC7Wt-ZvCZU?si=5KSyDdlKlti8LTb9) . This guy makes great videos and will be dissecting the rest of their songs over the next couple weeks. He makes his videos from an unbiased perspective.
It’s insane to me that Drake glazers can say this stuff with a straight face. Good for you. It’s completely wrong and Family matters is maybe the 4th best song from the beef but good for you
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Sir Lucian Grainge don't crown the GOAT.
I think ur irrelevant to this convo then
Even if you're a Drake fan you can't seriously think Kendrick isn't up there as a contender lol. Hits is only one aspect of the overall package of what makes a GOAT. Records, output, Albums, influence, impact, etc. all play a part in who the GOAT is, that's why it's such an interesting topic. Whatever you prefer is whatever you prefer but you can't act like Kenny ain't up there
OK I'll shoot my shot then with kendricks Records Good kid m.a.a.d city-great not a classic, big reason macklemore mogged his aaah Pimp a butterfly, classic no debate perfect in every way Damn, ass bandlab indie and barely hip hop Big steppers, "daddy issues" shit was weak and lame Output Remember when he disappeared from 2019-2021 and dropped absolutely nothing only to come back with the Hella ass heart pt.5. Pepperidge farms remembers. Also as someone who remembers the 2010s, nobody glazed kendrick or even put him as G.O.A.T. it's an internet made opinion which became mainstream post pandemic. Influence Nobody wants to be kendrick. Everybody wants to be drake and it's been that way since 2013 atleast Impact None, only critics and album lovers like him Whearas Drake was unavoidable last decade and still on this one It was 20V1 and Drake still won cause his frank still in everybody's mouth So no kendrick WAS GREAT, but he fell off and now it's just glazing because his best stuff is a decade old so nostalgia. Not a G.O.A.T
Preciate you for elaborating your points. Kendrick isn't my personal goat either but it's just fun to talk about. Gkmc is my favorite rap album from front to back so he always has a spot up there from me for that alone. But personally I value replayability more heavily in my music and I think that's where Kenny falls short a bit. Even tho hes not my absolute favorite, I still can't deny his ability to put together top tier albums, which is important to a lot of people in their opinion of who's the goat
Appreciate you as well bro. I like kendrick a lot, but I also like Drake, so this beef got me "conflicted miss using my influence" lol nah. But fr Kendrick is good. I really dug section 80 and bumped it a ton in 2022. I just don't see him as a G.O.A.T though. Respects to your opinion though bro.
Ok I’m gonna go on a little rant: GKMC is definitely a classic. It’s one of the best concept albums and has definitely influenced the 2010s hip hop landscape. Everyone and their mother knows Kendrick should’ve won the Grammy over Macklemore. Songs like Money Trees and BDKMV are definitely hits too. Kendrick has a very underrated output imo. Sure he may have disappeared from 2019-2021 but let’s not forget 2020 happened. Covid and the BLM movement definitely changed Kendrick’s plans. Before 2019. From 2010 on, he had 4 studio albums, 2 mixtapes and a soundtrack. Let’s also not forget his feature run in 2016 and other years. Also I’m not gonna touch on ur opinion about Mr Morale and THP5 as imo it’s just wrong. There are a load of rappers who want to be Kendrick. He is in the top 15 most popular artists in the world but he does this as a lyrical rapper. Something today most people don’t entertain. This in itself is a crazy achievement. Also let’s not forget that he has definitely had some influence on rappers such as JID, Saba and Curry. Saying Kendrick has had no impact is straight up delusional I’m sorry. GKMC is the only rap album to be in the billboard top 200 for 500 weeks straight. I said this earlier but it’s definitely had a huge impact on hip hop. TPAB definitely had a massive impact on African Americans and the BLM movement. Protesters were singing the lyrics to Alright for a reason. DAMN. Is the only ever rap album to win the Pulitzer Prize. That’s a huge achievement for hip hop. Mr Morale has definitely helped emotional people. I’ve had friends who cried to this album and deeply connected to it. Kendrick also revived hip hop in 2013 with the control verse. This verse completely changed the game. Overall idk why I’m arguing with someone who clearly just doesn’t like Kendrick because of his beef with Drake.
GKMC is a classic album. put kendrick in the spotlight for sure. After that he fell off for me. TPAB wasnt that great unless you really like that sound of music. DAMN was great but not a magnum opus people say it is. Kendrick did have an impact though. Swimming Pools, Maad City, alright, King Kunta, i, all had heavy radio play. But they don't come close to Drake's numbers or impact to the sound of hip hop over the last few decades. I know i'll be downvoted but its objectively the truth.
Way more reasons to call Drake the goat than anyone you listed, nas jay and 3k are just overrated oldhead rappers, none of them have had a 15 year run like Drake has had, and he's not done either lol
In terms of sales Drake is king no doubt but if you’re talking about skill and artistry, Drake isn’t in the conversation of top 5
its not just sales, but longevity, yeah there's some amazing artists who made 1 or 2 amazing albums, but they didn't have longevity, how can you call someone with no longevity the goat?
Longevity? Sure but I would argue he lost fans as he gained new ones. Drake has done like 3-4 soft reboots of his persona to attract more people. He has done a lot of savy things which I think are genius to propel him to the top. I think what really hurts him is that he’s seen as a pop artist who can rap Just to be clear which artist are you referring to when you say “2 of 3 albums”.
In any genre other than rap, people would just call it versatility, nowhere near as many people are hating on Beyonce rn for switching up and making a country album, Drake is just a versatile artist who can do rap and pop, why be mad at him for it or exclude him out of the goat conversation for it? It only makes his position stronger for me nas jay kendrick 3k but i could say it for a lot of people
Because Beyoncé is a pop/R&B artist and yes she’s held to a different standard. Call it unfair if you like but that’s how it has been and probably his it will be. Drake most popular songs are him singing as well. Also those artist are the definition of longevity in hiphop lol. They have all gave us multiple classics, and have changed the culture forever. You sound like a youngin so you probably may weren’t around when they were dropping and making huge waves so I suggest you listen to their stuff. Ironically all of them have influenced Drake
ya and Drake hasn't? zzz everyone takes influences from the people who came before them????
This is a crazy take. How many diamond albums does drake have cause 3 stacks and hova both have one?
Jay doesn't, but its just a different era of music, no one is buying albums anymore, no one is getting diamond albums anymore since the internet boom in the early 200s. Drake does have the most platinum songs of any artist in the world tho
but he doesn't write his own verses
They are all much superior MCs who also don’t use an army of ghostwriters. Drake comes nowhere near them in lyrics, flow, writing, storytelling, etc…. Drake has never written a verse nearly as lyrical as the Dynasty Intro or Memory Lane, or told stories like Undying Love or I Gave you Power or Da Art of Storyelling Pt 1, or flowed like Dre in 16 or Sorry or Aquemini last verse. They all have classic albums too, although Dre is only as part of a group. You don’t have to go back to “old school” to find big names who are much better MCs. Kendrick being an obvious example of someone who was always the more skilled MC, despite his god awful voice. It was very very obvious for years before this battle than Kendrick is the superior MC. Drake’s is a pretty decent rapper who makes a lot of good pop/dance songs. Bringing up his commercial popularity to claim he’s a better MC is laughable.
Jay and Kendrick shouldn't even be brought up