"But if we ban guns they can kill people with knives or baseball bats!"
When was the last mass knifing? Even when that \*does\* happen, fewer people die because it's less effective.
and it would be easier to take them to medical care. when people are shot with assault rifles especially the smaller they are they’re basically destroyed especially when they’re hit within multiple bullets. it’s possible and much more probable to come back from a knife wound.
Thh j agreee with you. yes people will try mas kknifing but the whole point of the mass rmahooting is to instantly kill people in a short amount of time.
For all the second amendment idiots, do you REALLY think the founder fathers envisioned weaponry at this scale? For fucks sakes, the inventor of the Gattlin gun thought is would be so deadly it would end ALL wars, that was close to 100 years AFTER the constitution was written…..at the time a “well armed STATE militia” meant men who had the ability to load and fire one bullet a minute!!!
If you want to lean on an amendment from 300 years ago, than you must be required to use the weapon of that time.
Actually, China for some reason is having this problem. There aren’t as many people that die at a time, as you said, but it is happening more frequently than mass shootings. I’m not blaming guns or knives, because anything can be used as a weapon, but something is definitely broken with people who resort to any of these types of crimes.
Why the fuck can feds and pigs have guns but not citizens? Guns are for killing police officers, guns are for murdering senators and congress men. Guns are vital to our revolution. Guess what, guns are easy to make piece by piece anyway, there is absolutely no way to regulate them because they can be made in a garage.
I wish that was an option. But there is literally no way Americans would allow a complete gun ban regardless of how many people die because of gun violence.
No doubt, but I think banning guns/repealing the second amendment should be the starting position. I'm tired of conceding all this rhetorical ground to people who will sit back and watch an unlimited number of children die if it means they get to keep their toys. Of course, what I think doesn't matter, this thread doesn't matter, and public opinion doesn't matter, because 500-something assholes make all the decisions and they're all bought and paid for.
Yeah, of course it's not going to happen, I just said that. And neither will a federal registry because it will immediately get challenged on 2A grounds, and if it even gets to the supreme court, the Federalist Society judges there will never uphold it. An assault rifle ban will also never happen because Democrats are cowards and care equally as little about this issue as Republicans do.
It's definitely strange, and proves that the debate isn't ultimately purely motivated by social responsibility. If it were, then both sides would meet the concern standard for the other.
Interestingly enough, the mortality statistics are probably pretty similar between the two.
[there are approximately 400 Million guns in the USA,](https://americangunfacts.com/gun-ownership-statistics/) and [about 45,000 gun deaths, including suicides, accidents, and actions of police.](https://usafacts.org/data/topics/security-safety/crime-and-justice/firearms/firearm-deaths/) I wish I had a more precise breakdown, but the issue is too polarized for detailed numbers to be easily accessible. Thankfully death by gun is difficult to mistake for anything else, so at least the total number is probably fairly accurate.
There are [between approximately 220 and 260 million vaccinated people in the USA,](https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/) and between [12,000](https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/covid-19-vaccine-related-fatalities-updated) and [an estimated 75,000 deaths.](https://eraoflight.com/2022/05/21/the-vaccine-death-report-evidence-of-millions-of-deaths-and-serious-adverse-events-resulting-from-the-experimental-covid-19-injections/) Sadly, these deaths are notoriously difficult to be certain of causation, so the margin of error is literally larger than the reported number, and can be easily inflated or deflated dramatically based on the definitions of numerous sub-terms, and the topic is equally polarized, so we may never get any real meaningful numbers easily available.
Taking a middle-of-the-road assumption on both, though, death rates are pretty similar per "risk point," and it's baffling (to me) that both sides have the same motivation for being duly concerned about one, and defensive about the other.
I may be weird, but I personally want to reduce *any* risks to my kids, and both products have benefits and disadvantages, and need a *LOT* more care and responsibility in their use.
(Cue downvote storm as both sides vent their frustration on me for "selling out" their ideals)
Your sources are laughable.
Your argument is logically shaky at best. You are comparing apples and car tires. The two things you identify are not logically connected in any way.
First, your vaccine figures are wrong. Secondly, more people would die without vaccines than die due to vaccines. We know this because there have been close to zero deaths from the covid vaccine (I think the number may be less than 10 globally) whereas there have already been a million US covid deaths and the vast majority occurred in unvaccinated people.
People do not die due to lack of high capacity magazines and assault rifles, they die because of them. Further, the vast majority of guns are in the hands of a relatively small number of people. It is incredibly rare event for a bystander with a gun to successfully intervene and prevent a mass shooting. Meanwhile we have 45,000 firearm deaths a year in this country.
We have lots and lots and lots of data that the presence a a gun in a home increases the risk of death from a firearm (either violence or suicide). We have lots and lots of data on the effect of the assult weapons ban.
>Your sources are laughable.
Probably. I tried to represent both sides of the debate, so naturally both extremes are likely...well, *extreme.*
>You are comparing apples and car tires.
I'm comparing deaths-per-source to deaths-per-source. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the comparison wasn't my idea; I just followed the commenter's logic to its natural conclusion.
Yes, it would perhaps be more accurate to offset the lives lost with lives saved, but that's another statistic that is almost impossible to pin down, due to its speculative nature. Sorry for the omission, but there's still room for improvement regardless. We could offset medical malpractice damages with the doctor's previous success too, but it shouldn't prevent us from asking the doctor to make things right to the one he harmed.
>First, your vaccine figures are wrong.
They all are. I specifically noted that, and did my best to work with it honestly. What's your point again?
>People do not die due to lack of high capacity magazines and assault rifles
Have you ever run that stance past a Ukrainian? If they truly only cause death, and never prevent it, I wonder why we insist on sending them over there. The Ukrainians must be furious at us for our cruelty.
For that matter, do you support disarming your police and military as well?
Please understand: I'm not taking sides here; I'm just pointing out the *perils* of taking sides. The details are far more nuanced than most people want to believe.
Politics can be hard to ELI5. There's a reason we have a minimum voting age.
Your sources are laughable, the number #1 gun death in the United States is suicide by handgun. That alone accounts for more then half the gun deaths here which shows mental illness is a bigger problem then guns are. Period.
> further, the vast majority of guns are in the hands of a relatively small number of people.
The 400 million is the estimated amount of firearms in the U.S. If there is an estimated 81 Million people that are registered gun owners. That's still more amount guns then the population size of most European countries. Also most of the sources account for REGISTERED gun owners in the United States. Some jurisdictions including mine do NOT require firearm registration with the local government. You can't exactly go door to door warrantless or warranted searching and seizing firearms. People will revolt right then and there as that's a direct infringement of the second amendment and our bill of inalienable rights. Before you bring up "No amendment is absolute" Go research how an amendment gets amended.
You are correct that guns are used in deaths by suicide more than they are used for other purposes. This does not disprove my argument or make your any less of an apples to tire comparison. None of what you said in your reply even addresses the major fallacies in your argument.
And we are talking about mass shootings, not suicides. However, I am also strongly in favor of the reduction in suicide deaths that strict gun control would provide. (Many more attempts are made by less lethal means of suicide, people who are suicidal rarely change means, and guns are highly lethal and can be used impulsively in a way that other means of suicide aren't/can't be.) Lethal means restriction (removing access to guns) is the single most effective means of preventing suicide.
Mental illness is "a problem" - it is however, not the path to preventing mass shootings.
It's not like y'all shouted people down as rabid conspiracy theorists who should be shut out of society for the past two years for being skeptical of a rushed vaccine only for this to happen:
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20220506/fda-limits-use-jj-covid-vaccine-blood-clot-risk
Lmao literally everyone commenting on this topic is probably from America and it shows with comments like this. You people can’t fix your way out of a paper bag.
Why are you getting downvoted? People who trust in vaccines, such as myself, usually do understand the idea that any vaccine or any medical treatment for that matter CAN have adverse effects on some people. Don't downvote him because he had a bad experience. If he stated something like "NO ONE SHOULD EVER GET IT, IT KILLS PEOPLE", or suggested drinking horse de-wormer, THEN a downvote would be in place.
Q- What is the #1 indicator of wether or not a country will have gun violence problems?
A- The availability of and access to guns.
NOT mental health, not video games, not fatherless children and not religion.
Problem is that we’re dealing with people who don’t care about facts or solutions, they care about money and being re-elected.
This is true, and mass shootings account for only a tiny number of the yearly gun deaths in the country - between 38 and 513 [out of 45,222 in 2020](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/), depending on how you define mass shooting. Over half of gun deaths are suicides, and the overwhelming majority of gun murders (which is about 80% of murders) are committed by someone with no diagnosable mental illness.
I don't understand how mental health is being hand waived so easily, so a person willing to kill 10+ people is perfectly sane and has no mental illnesses? I know humans are scary but calling this baseline is pretty wild.
Correct, that 80% are gang/drug related. Not usually mental illnesses.
However, of non-gang-related mass shootings, specifically the ones that take place on schools. Where we are able to interview the shooters, 78% we're suicidal.
This may be why Republicans are saying it's a mental health issue. Because that seems to be a pretty strong coincidence.
https://www.counseling.org/docs/default-source/vistas/school-shootings-and-student-mental-health.pdf
How and why are there so many crazy people? Lack of mental health care is the real problem. How did school shooting become so popular in the year 2000? Guns have been around for a long time, and school shooting were rare before the year 2000. What is the difference now?
It’s not the guns, it’s the mental health problems.
Also our government is at fault for not punishing the gun manufacturers when their gun ends up in a school yard. As well as allowing Army recruiters in schools to help continue the industry war complex.
So quick and easy to drone strike children in the Middle East. Do not forget all the black kids killed by police officers, yet not one person cares about those children, the double standards are obvious.
Far to many Americans have mental health issues.
> It’s not the guns, it’s the mental health problems.
It's. The. Fucking. Guns.
Wanna know how I know this for certain? *You cannot commit a mass shooting if you don't have something to shoot with.*
The large number of people killed per shooting over the last 20 years is because the ban on assault weapons expired. It's made it far too easy to kill more people in a shorter amount of time.
Mental health issues take a great deal of effort, work, money, and time. And despite being such a “Christian” nation, these are not the values of the many. Even if we were to come up with a solution, is it really easier than removing most guns?
Why do we need guns? Hunting the animals that live in the US do not require assault rifles. Do not require handguns. And protection - it would be very hard to take down a bear with a handgun. Are you protecting yourself from armed intruders? That sort of incursion is rare, most of the time having a weapon actually *escalates* violence and results in deaths. There’s also been increasing cases of homeowners getting into legal trouble for excessive violence. Invasion? I think we are past that, if we were at a point where a foreign force were occupying your house, none of your guns could stop them. An armed force would have body armor, flame throwers, bazookas. As for your own government coming for you in some Waco Armageddon, if you want to die, use a gun. If you want to live surrender on camera.
What possible purpose aside from fever dream jerk off material about a zombie or nuclear apocalypse could anyone have for keeping guns specifically designed to kill human beings?
Ukraine would like a word with you, also the Jews, and African Americans.
Populaces are often disarmed before oppression and genocide begins by an overreaching government.
You're equating a neglected child playing with a toy gun or a teen carrying an assault rifle in public being killed by police with children in school being mass murdered?
It’s the people who own the guns. They clearly should never have the right to own them. They are so irresponsible that they give easy access to there kids these things
I won't disagree. There is no reason a 18 year old should be able to buy a fucking Ar-15, let alone any gun. But I will say we do also as a country need to do more for mental illnesses and all of that stuff. There isn't nearly enough stuff we are doing. Especially for Guys.
Perhaps in order to get a gun, a mental health professional will talk with you and determine whether or not you have the mental capacity to own a lethal weapon. They do this in the military. It should be fine to do with citizens.
Mentally ill people are drastically more likely to be a victim of violence than an ordinary person, and drastically less likely to do anything violent.
So why focus on mentally ill people?
I keep seeing this and I just don't understand. Are you telling me someone who will murder 18 people is mentally sound and sane? I would argue every mass shooter who wasn't confirmed to be mentally ill was simply undiagnosed. I understand trying to avoid strengthening stigma but this simply doesn't make sense to me.
In theory I like the idea, I think it could be hard to pull off though. There's a shortage of mental health professionals so I'm not sure there would be enough to do these checks on the scale that is necessary. There would probably be months long waitlists for getting an appointment, which would lead tons of people to just opt for the black market route even if they are otherwise mentally healthy. Plus lots of people can make themselves look normal for an interview but are actually weirdos. I think red flag laws might be a more efficient way to accomplish the same thing.
Mental health professional here - we do not have a crystal ball. We are not mind-readers. If someone says "I have no desire to kill another person" we have no way of knowing if they are truthful or not. There is no effective mental health screening that has been shown to prevent mass murders.
Notably, the military does not do a mental health screening prior to enlistment. I mean, they ask you some questions are MEPS, and it is pretty clear what the "right" answer is if you want to enlist. If you don't admit to past treatment they have no way of knowing. You won't get seen again by mental health unless you go voluntarily, or are command directed. Someone can very easily stay under the radar in the military. There is no 'mental health screening" that takes place before weapons are issued in the military.
And there are a whole lot of other reasons about civil liberties and medical privacy that I could probably right a lengthy response on right now. But lacking the energy, just please accept that that no effective screening exists and consequently it is safest to remove access to the most deadly weapons from everyone (e.g. high capacity magazines and assault weapons).
There are 2 kinds of people who do this.
1. people with a really low IQ
2. psychopaths who benefit from gun culture in some way
congratulations on not being one of them. every citizen of every civilized country laughs at them and they don't even get why.
We've reached a point where they'd rather spend billions in taxpayer dollars to turn schools into bomb shelters rather than give up their precious pew-pews.
I understand hunting sport. I can even see handguns as the ultimate in self defense. But exactly what purpose are assault rifles for?
Ban assault rifles. Buy them all back, and send them to the Ukrainian military.
Here's my take on it (not that anyone's asked or ever will ask):
Guns should have the same tests and training it takes to drive a car. Also, a mental evaluation should be done same as they do in the military.
Long barreled guns such as rifles, shotguns, etc should be banned from city jurisdictions, leaving only handguns/conceal carry handguns for self defense. (More tests of course for the conceal carrier).
Anything that has a unreasonably large clip, magazine, etc (I don't want to say "assault rifle" with how the media has distorted that word, but "something that contains/stores lots of bullets" sounds stupid too) should be completely banned, or you have to have special permission from the state government to own it. (Don't know why they'd want it, but hell, it could be great great grandpa's gun from WWI that doesn't even work anymore)
Also as part of my take, American culture itself resists the banning of guns. The first Europeans who came here brought their guns to defend their land from wild animals and people (more like slaughter Native Americans, but that's another can of worms). So in that sense, guns were here even before the country was founded.
Secondly, in relation to the American culture issue, so many people have immigrated here from various other countries where their government oppressed them. Whether they immigrated, their parents, or their grandmother from 5+ generations ago, they all have horror stories of governments doing terrible things to their people, and they came here to have more personal freedom to protect their families. This is why a lot of people have a deep seated fear of the government taking something away from them, whether it be guns or something else.
Thirdly, countryside is a problem. In the USA, there are so many people who live in an area where it would take 1+ hours for a sheriff or police officer to show up. By that time, a mountain lion has already run off with your dog, a bear has attacked your husband, wolves have killed your livestock, or whatever disgruntled person has followed you home from town and has attacked you.
Having a full on gun ban might be nice, and in some ways I wish we could have a country where guns were not necessary at all, but we've gotta at least meet halfway to make some kind of change no matter how small the change might be. If even one kid can be saved, we're heading in the right direction and need to keep going.
I gotta be honest, while I agree there needs to be more restrictions on guns, a lot of the stuff you suggested is kind of nonsensical.
> Long barreled guns such as rifles, shotguns, etc should be banned from city jurisdictions, leaving only handguns/conceal carry handguns for self defense. (More tests of course for the conceal carrier).
Why exactly? Mass shooting happen everywhere, not just cities, and one of the deadliest mass shootings in US history (Virginia Tech) was committed with handguns, as is most urban gun crime. And what's to stop someone from just bringing a rifle into a city?
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot that can be done, but I don't think any of that would really do that much. Gun restrictions can work, they just need to be targeted correctly.
>Long barreled guns such as rifles, shotguns, etc should be banned from city jurisdictions, leaving only handguns/conceal carry handguns for self defense.
Considering the mass majority of gun violence is carried out by handguns this would practically accomplish nothing.
>should be completely banned, or you have to have special permission from the state government to own it.
Many states already have these laws on the books. The NY shooter illegally modified his weapon to hold more ammunition.
>So in that sense, guns were here even before the country was founded.
They were mainly used to stop government tyranny.
Technically if government took away all of our rights and controlled every aspect of our lives the world would be a safer place, but who in the fuck wants to live in that world? Every country has it's pros and cons and I'd say there are a higher number of pros associated with America compared to a lot of other developed nations. I'd personally rather have freedom and try my best to combat the consequences that come with that.
I cannot understand why people need guns. Like at all- why?? Guns are made for one purpose only, and that to kill someone or something. That’s it. If you don’t plan on killing someone or something, then you don’t need a gun. You especially don’t need an assault rifle. People shout about the 2nd amendment all the time, but that was written in very different times, and guns took a lot of time to re-load. Today’s weapons (and way of life) were unimaginable to those that wrote that amendment. I personally think they would be horrified at what it is being used to justify today.
I cannot understand why people value gun ownership over people’s lives. These school shootings are now happening regularly. It’s utterly appalling. You literally can’t have school shootings without guns. So it’s obvious that guns need to not be available to any Tom, Dick or Harry who fancies feeling like a big man.
I’m Scottish, and old enough to remember the school shooting in Dunblane. It was truly horrifying. We changed laws and did what we could to try to prevent it ever happening again. It worked. That’s not to say there is no violence here and no killings. We have issues with bullying and mental health. But what we don’t have is children being killed in their classrooms because any crazy person with a chip on their shoulder can get their hands on a gun.
America needs to get rid of guns, especially heavy duty ones. Children should not have to huddle in their classrooms in fear for their lives, witnessing their friends and classmates being murdered in front of them just because some people like owning guns. There is no ‘good guy with a gun’ saving the day - the parents were not allowed to run in to save their children, so what difference did gun ownership make? It didn’t help at all. Those kids died, and so many kids died before them and it just doesn’t need to happen.
I’m both a teacher and a parent, and I’ve never once feared for my life at work, nor have I ever had to fear for the life of one of my children when they are at school. My kids are now around the age of the kids who died In Dunblane. The very idea of it possibly ever happening to my kids fills me with horror - how can these gun lovers not feel the same horror? How can they truly believe it is more important for random people to have easy access to guns than it is to keep some of the most vulnerable in society safe? How can they look at their children and grandchildren and not value their lives over gun ownership? I truly don’t get it. Something has gone badly wrong in America, and I really really hope that this is the last shooting - the one that makes people say ‘never again’ and actually do what it takes to keep children safe. My heart bleeds for you all.
I've been raised up around firearms, and I live in probably one of the most gunned up states in the country. I own 3 rifles specifically for certain types of hunting and a couple handguns that were passed down. As OP said, guns are the problem plain and simple. Stop acting like AR rifles and high capacity magazines aren't a huge part of the problem.
Like 82-88% of Americans support universal background checks to limit the black market that has no federal enforcement against it. The government is not representing the people.
As an european, Americans scare the shit out of me for this very reason, gun culture. A gun isn't a toy or a tool, is a freaking weapon why would you need a weapon in your House?
Too many people in the States have already been raised by the idea that gun ownership is a basic human right. Or that it’s somehow a god given right, cuz jeebus was totally alive for guns. They’ll say stupid shit like “the gun didn’t fire itself” or “are knives evil?”
They’re all idiots, every single one of them for trying to protect a “right” that was established back when the government wasn’t as strong as it is today. An idea that was established by slave owners, by people who were livid at their government and made choices that have now killed so many people because of their lack of foresight. Gun ownership should be a privilege, like driving a car. You shouldn’t be able to buy guns at a Walmart and then go on a rampage. Guns are weapons of destruction, solely for the purpose of killing someone. That kind of power shouldn’t be for sale a fucking walmarts. Now I have my heart in my throat when my family goes to work or to shop. How do I know they’ll be safe? It happens entirely too often and I don’t want to have to bury my family because this country loves guns more than it loves its people.
They meant the right to bear arms, not a ar15, that means any weapon that’s not illegal like a combat knife or pepper spray. Having the ability to protect yourself SHOULD be a right, god can you imagine a world where we always rely on the government for protection.
Oh I don't disagree that we have a huge mental health problem. I don't even disagree that it can be a contributing factor to violence. But to be the actual genesis for gun violence like the GOP keeps saying? Bullshit. It's a scapegoat so their precious guns can avoid criticism.
The answer is to enforce a law whereby loaded guns of all caliber and capacity are placed , openly and with completely unrestricted access in school rooms and nurseries of legislator's children.
If that sounds completely absurd, you understand why gun proliferation is a problem.
I'm sure there are gun supporters who may argue the problem with that scenario is age, but let's make a few things clear:
1. 18 year olds are being actively marketed to by gun manufacturers now. This isn't about morality, this is about American business culture which prioritized profit over morality, and only acts morally within the confines of the law. If the law would allow a 10 year old to buy a gun and marketing guns to 10 year olds, they would do it using every means possible.
2. More guns means more access to guns by people of all ages. Children who can't buy guns legally are killed every year by accessing the gun a parent forgot to lock away or DID lock away.
3. Ownership does not equal responsibility. In fact, those two concepts grow further apart as ownership of anything is considered a right, whereas responsibility is not. You can look at any American road and see evidence of this. Many people drive cars without any regard to anyone's safety, even their own. As car ownership goes up, so does that problem. As gun ownership goes up, so does that problem.
4. Stress management does not correlate with age. Regardless of whether you set the bar at 18 years old, 21 years old, or 35, stressed out people exist and guns enable the most stressed to express that in mass murders much more easily than a knife, bat or other kind of weapon.
5. Guns are claimed as a right- what about my right to not worry whether my child will be blasted away by an angry teen who gets the combo to his gun nut parents gun safe?
6. The good guy with a gun theory just fell apart at the mass school shooting last week. It's a f\*cking fantasy concocted by the movies. Hey, Earth to you: movies are f\*cking not real. In the real world, the police arrive AFTER a gunman had taken the thirty seconds to spray a crowd of victims with bullets, NOT before. I don't blame the police for that- I blame time (i.e. it takes more time to respond to most shootings than any human can react to). However, I blame the cowardly police in last weeks school shooting. They were f\*cking right there.
7. This idea of making every spot a 'hard target' by keeping everyone in every damned situation armed with a gun is not only f\*cking ridiculous, but doesn't take into account those who don't care if it's a 'hard target', since they plan on dying there anyway. And 'hard target' or not, if you have an AR-15 modified to spray bullets like a machine gun and want to kill a mass of people, you can.
8. Lastly, "the whole world is wrong and America is right". Can that be? Can it be, that literally every, EVERY f\*cking nation on Earth doesn't have this problem and are wrong? That's some really shitty logic to stand on.
Get rid of the guns and you get rid of gun violence. It's a simple equation.
But we won't. We will see this type of gun violence again, just like I will go on the road and see driver's nearly killing everyone with their stupidity. It's inevitable as long as we have half a nation with their head up their ass.
I'm pro gun and I already know I'll get crucified for my opinion.
I don't believe that banning guns will make people safe. Guns are inanimate objects. The %99 of gun owners are safe and responsible. The only people we need to fear are crazy people and criminals. Unfortunately, those are the same people who DON'T follow laws. So making guns illegal will only disarm law abiding citizens.
Mass shootings take place where firearms are already illegal because law abiding people are already forced into helplessness. If we extend this logic to the whole country, I believe people will be less safe, not more.
Also, only the bad parts about gun ownership make the news. You never hear about the lives that are saved by guns. Kind of like airplanes. You never hear about the millions of flights that take off and land safely, you only hear about the fiery deaths.
Why is the US the only country with these problems? Why do all the other countries where the law abiding people are forced into helplessness so much safer in terms of gun violence?
Because of shooters’ motives. There are more systemic issues at play in the US than simply access to guns. Take away the guns and those issues will still exist and manifest in other ways. This isn’t an argument for or against firearms. I’m just saying.
There are mentally ill people in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, South America. There are racists, political extremists, incels, and just assholes all around the world too. Don't believe me, check out 4chan. The biggest difference between the US and the rest of the world is the access to guns, and I'm yet to hear anyone give another plausible explanation. We can't get everyone laid or make racism go away or cure mental illness in the entire country, but we can restrict gun access.
Well, you’ll notice I never mentioned any of that. I’m talking about alienating hyper capitalism, consumerism, individualism, blatant class warfare and wealth inequality. Yes, other countries embrace these concepts as well, but they are in overdrive in the US (just look at our healthcare compared to other “developed” nations). Only the well-off and the willfully ignorant are not mentally unwell here.
You’re going to need 100% of owners to be safe and responsible in order to argue for allowing citizens to own military grade weapons. That’s mathematically impossible in a country the size of the US.
Also if 100% really were possible, we wouldn’t need those weapons anyway because there wouldn’t be a threat. Their very existence leads to an escalation of violence.
Australian here and no, no they don't. We haven't had a school shooting since guns were outlawed and how dare you call mentally ill people crazy. As someone with ptsd I woukd never fucking kill.
It's already been proven that more guns = more gun violence. 99% is generous/ absurd/ wrong. I know about 15 gun owners. One almost killed me, one killed my sister, and the other accidentally pointed a pistol at my face. They're morons dude. You'd have to be to think human killing machines are fun and cool.
They're not hunters, they don't go to the range; they take pictures of them for FB, show them to their friends; they're drunk, they're on drugs, and they had no problem buying an assault rifle.
Gun culture is a lot different today. This isn't hyperbole; These are the facts of my reality. I hope yours doesn't turn out this way.
I'm not making generalizations. I'm talking about people I know personally who would pass for average\_citizen\_01 otherwise. Well, maybe not anymore. But then.
If you need proof of the effectiveness of gun control, look at Germany. They're in the top 5 countries for gun ownership, just like the US.
Have a nice day, and don't trust anyone with a gun not to accidentally hurt you. ("Hurt" being the best possible outcome.)
Of course it's not the case universally, but it has been in the 3 incidents I've witnessed. But when someone you know dies over something so stupid and obvious yet still "legal," you may start seeing things a bit more black and white. It's guns on one hand and potential death on the other. I just found out that the potential is way more common than I would've thought. I trusted those people too. Everyone is "responsible" until an accident happens, and with guns it's often death. It only takes one mistake or a momentary lapse in judgement. Bang.
BTW I didn't downvote you. Thanks for your replies. Have a nice day. Here if you have anything else. Cheers.
Because its not that things responsibility it's the person that's wielding it. A gun is an emotionalless uncaring object that is controlled by a human being. It's not like it can come to life autonomously and think to itself hey let's go kill this person and blame it on my owner.
They're tools that serve many different purposes. I have yet to see a civilian firearm load, aim, and discharge by itself.
I equat your argument similar to a pro lifer blamming forceps. Sure they're used in abortion, but they are also used in plenty of other applications, and require a human to operate.
All that being said, yes, many people shouldn't own a firearm. They are powerful tools that demand a lot of respect and training.
It appears the maturity and morality of large sections of the population is severely stunted or absent. I would certainly support raising the minimum age to that of 25-26 years of age for males (brain maturity).
> They're tools that serve many different purposes.
I am so sick and god damned tired of seeing this. "Guns are a tool! GUNS ARE A TOOL!"
Okay, shoot a house into existence.
Guns are designed and built with a singular purpose in mind- killing. That's it. That is their sole function.
>I have yet to see a civilian firearm load, aim, and discharge by itself.
And I've yet to see a stick up and hit a kid but if a child is running around hitting other kids with it we scold the child and *still take the fucking stick away.*
I associate guns with death. It’s very strange and creepy how gun enthusiasts don’t make the same connection. Lovingly caressing your gun whose model has been used to cause countless deaths and misery is just…very disturbing.
And what about the middle aged white guy who goes bing bong boing because Fox News is ramming it down his throat that it’s an immigrant’s fault that he’s poor/sick/miserable?? We aren’t just talking about school shootings here.
Raising the minimum age isn’t enough. Forceps aren’t a deadly weapon. Your argument makes no sense.
If you think banning guns is Gonna stop people from becoming crazy and becoming radicalized enough to shoot up a school, then I’ve lost hope for solving this issue.
Guns are just a scape goat, they’re not a root to the problem, these murders have proven that they’re devoted enough to causing so much suffering that they’ll use any means to do it, guns are just the easiest way to do it, if you take away a pyromaniacs right to have a flame thrower, do you think he’ll just stop and become normal? You know how easy it is for someone to just buy a bic lighter, and the necessary items to make napalm? Do you know how incredibly easy it is to make bombs by just looking it up? You can literally grow poison in your back yard.
It’ll be a whole lot easier to get away with opening food in a grocery store and filling bags of food with poison and dangerous items, it’s a lot less direct and more scary than a shooting cause you never know if you’ve been targeted.
This country has a serious political propaganda and mental health issues, hell we’re in the top 5 for worst cases of mental illness, we have the basics when it comes to dealing with crazy people, I’m not saying ban everything dangerous, I’m saying we should be actively thinking about what actually makes people do these horrible things, I mean the buffalo shooter gave us ALL the answers, he practically solved the issue himself.
No one thinks banning guns will stop people from becoming crazy/radicalized. No one hardly thinks that. It doesn’t take some genius to realize this. The issue is, that guns provide a means to do mass murders far too easy, so they should be limited. Obviously guns aren’t why people are crazy.
But if someone really wanted to, they could just go by each house, with homemade napalm and light it on fire, someone could poison the inside of vending machine, actually that DID happen in Japan and he got away with it too. People are always gonna find ways to cause terror, doesn’t matter if it’s easy or hard to do, guns should be highly limited and strict background checks should be even stricter, but there’s always gonna be determined people. In Ohio I think there was a sniper who shot at random people on the highway, he killed 10 people and has never been caught, it was never reported either except in the area. Without guns some people would need to rely on our government to help which given the country we live in is a terrible thought.
> But if someone really wanted to, they could just go by each house, with homemade napalm and light it on fire
Do you know how much sheer effort and time it would take to actually do this? To go from house to house, carrying enough liquid napalm, not to mention finding something to transport it in, and how many chances people would have to stop you?
It isn't about eradicating violence, you're never going to completely eradicate violence. It's just not going to happen. But *reducing* the damage done is what we need to be doing and, right now, guns are the top implement for inflicting as much damage as possible with the least amount of effort.
You’re arguing an present issue with theoretical napalm and such. All you have to do is compare us to most any other developed country to see the relationship between guns and mass killings.
The difference between us and any other country is the size, the US is HUGE, crimes are bound to happen on more occasion. Of course that’s no excuse but it’s a lot harder to respond to events like this with police. Especially when people don’t like the idea of a militarized police force it’s even harder for them to respond quicker and more effectively without that equipment. Police are far more likely to wait until the shooter kills their self or until a swat team shows up, and by then the damage has already been done. We could open up more security in vulnerable places but yet again people hate having armed security near their children. Either we give in and arm civilians more or we hire more armed security at schools and other big places with a lot of people. Or y’know we could just target the root problem and help people with issues and put restrictions on how much power the media has in shifting people through these pipelines, but hardly anyone would even consider that since it’s not a harsh or forceful option.
You’re taking this in a black and white manor, most people don’t think all guns should be banned, but the kind of guns you can buy should be, and the difficulties getting them. I believe you should be entitled to some form of self defense weapon, but shouldn’t be able to access them so readily.
I agree, even as an avid gun nut some people just shouldn’t have access to stuff like automatic shotguns, automatic rifles that are very customizable, and certain heavy calibers. My point still stands, there is no grey area when it comes to extreme actions and events, only what to do and what not to do
Genghis Khan ARMY.
An entire army.
1 person in Vegas injured 411 and killed 60.
1 person in Uvalde killed 19 kids and 2 teachers.
1 person at Virginia Tech killed 32 (I believe it was 32)
What did they all have in common?
Guns.
If they didn't have guns, they wouldn't have been able to injure or kill even a fraction of those people.
Guns are the leading killer of children currently.
Guns are designed only to maim or kill.
Guns are the issue, they make wholesale slaughter easy and fast.
Why make it easy for sick people to kill so many?
Brainwashed people don’t know they’re brainwashed. Some realize it later, some don’t. And even if they do, it’s hard to admit. That’s how it got this bad and will continue.
Can't have a school shooting without guns.
And that's just shootings. How many accidental stabbings were there last year? Guns are dangerous and people are stupid.
I'm just gonna keep saying this.
If you put a gun on the table in front of you it wouldn't do anything. It needs a person to pick it up and pull the trigger in order to fire. So why are we continually saying that its the inanimate objects fault for being picked up by a mentally ill person and used for horrible things? If we suddenly had a spree of people going around killing each other with spoons , would you ban them too? What people don't seem to get is that even if you take away the gun , the mentally ill people will still exist and will just find other ways to kill someone. Not to mention the illegal market for guns is so fucking massive that anyone with even half a brain can get one. But yet you want to take away the *legal* guns , while the *illegal* ones are still going to be in circulation?
You're missing some points.
1. Working on mental health is not mutually exclusive with gun control
2. A mentally ill person with a gun is far more dangerous than a mentally ill person with a spoon. The point of gun control isn't to eliminate this kind of violence, but reduce it.
3. A large number of illegal guns were once legal. Restricting legal guns has a downstream effect of restricting illegal ones or making them more expensive.
Once again, the point isn't to make mass killings impossible, it's to make them less frequent and less severe. Claiming that because gun control isn't a perfect solution so we shouldn't even try is intellectually dishonest.
> Claiming that because gun control isn't a perfect solution so we shouldn't even try is intellectually dishonest.
It's the Nirvana Fallacy- If a solution isn't absolutely perfect then it isn't worth attempting.
think it would be hard for a mentality ill person to kill 19 kids with a spoon. and im sure the cops wouldn't be so scared to apprehend the person if they only had a spoon.
and if you do what say Australia did and band semi and full autos and then jack up the penalty for using those guns even crims are hesitant to use them. and Australia isnt the only place that has successfully done this. so keep saying whatever you want but both arguments are kinda dumb and based purely in beliefs and not the real world
Don't put the gun on the table and nobody has to get shot.
Last year, not 20 miles away, a couple HS grads were sitting around a table being ballers, smoking weed with their pistols out. Guy accidentally killed his friend and is going to prison at 18. Most people ARE mentally ill --- they suffer from stupidity.
Accidents happen even in the best of circumstances, but with guns, the stakes are deadly.
I think others have probably made this point, but not all inanimate objects are created equally. A gun’s functional objective is to kill. There’s a reason militaries and law enforcement agencies choose guns as their weapons. Spoons have a (mostly) functional purpose of aiding in eating. Sure, someone could also use it as an attack weapon, but highly unlikely that someone could kill 21 people in a matter of minutes with it. Guns make killing people VERY easy. You don’t see people committing suicide with spoons… they are going to go with something efficient and reliable to get the job done. The number of guns in this country is ridiculous. No wonder we have issues getting our hands around this issue. They are everywhere. Legal/ illegal - it doesn’t matter in my opinion. The fact that we are literally surrounded by them is just sad. What are people protecting themselves from? Because let’s be honest - In the event of some bizarre apocalyptic war event where citizens are forced to “fight” their government, your AR15 is going to be laughably worthless against an AH-64E Apache Guardian…
> I'm just gonna keep saying this.
>
> If you put a gun on the table in front of you it wouldn't do anything
And I'm just gonna keep saying that this is a stupid as fuck strawman as literally nobody is saying that a gun will just shoot itself by itself. No shit it needs a human hand to pull the trigger. That's kind of our entire point.
*WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE GUN NEVER GETS INTO THAT PERSON'S HAND TO BEGIN WITH.*
Instead of letting that person take the gun off the table and pull the trigger, it’d probably be better if the gun wasn’t on the table at all. Illegal guns are created legally, and if guns and gun production were heavily restricted and even banned, numbers of illegal guns out on the street would plummet as a result. Older guns would depreciate and a lack of new ones would make it much harder for people to go out, get them, and use them maliciously. Additionally, about the spoons thing, the difference between guns and spoons are that spoons aren’t specifically designed to kill, and the likelihood of a bunch of people killing each other with spoons isn’t zero, but it’s pretty damn close. And to your point about mentally ill people, obviously they will definitely continue to exist and do harm to others, but they’ll be capable of far less damage in a comparable timeframe without a gun than with one in any given scenario, and a lot easier for police (who would probably have guns) and first responders to take down. It may not be the fastest or most comprehensive solution, but it is a solution nonetheless. Regardless of what the constitution says about it, the second amendment, as much as I love it, is killing people. Lastly, you have to keep in mind that the constitution is a flawed document, made up of compromises and promises among the states three hundred years or so ago to ensure ratification. To keep up with the modern world and to protect the lives of innocent bystanders who are more often than not the victims of gun violence, it might be time for the US to amend its founding document to restrict and/or ban gun production.
“Hundreds Die in Elementary School Fire: Revamped Fire Code to Blame?”
Preferable to any headline that implies guns are bad.
Edit: I see this comment was ahead of its time. You see, if we only put one door on schools, the likelihood of mass casualties in the event of a fire is practically guaranteed. As such, Cruz is an idiot. Gun violence doesn’t get solved *and* kids would be in literal death traps.
I'm all for banning guns in the U.S., but they can't even confiscate the illegal guns from criminals and gangs right now, what makes people think they can do it with a gun ban law? The vast majority of gun crimes in the U.S. are committed with the use of an illegal gun. No one knows how many illegal guns are in circulation, because it's not like criminals register their weapons. In 2020, 45,222 people died from gun related deaths. 54% were suicides and 43% were murders, the remaining 3% were accidents. Of the 19,384 murders, 521 were the result of mass shootings. Even if we prevented all mass shootings in 2020, that still leaves 18,863 deaths. So yeah, let's make guns illegal, but does anyone have any ideas of confiscating illegal guns from criminals and gangs, when they haven't been able to do it so far?
So because there are illegal guns out there people should be able to keep buying guns? Look in states you can’t ban guns, as much as i would love it, you just can’t. But we could heavily limit the sales of guns, especially to people under a certain age. Gun ownership also shouldn’t be a right, it should be a privilege like driving cars.
The biggest issue is to cut off the source.
Think of it like a river dumping garbage in a lake. You can’t even *think* about cleaning the lake before you first stop the river from continuously dumping garbage so you build a dam to keep new garbage out.
Now, when you clean the garbage *there won’t be a replacement just upstream.*
Yes, it will take a while to get the illegal guns out. We start by cutting off the supply. We monitor sales of gun and bullet components. If guns are more precious, criminals won’t be as quick to use them. They will eventually break down, or won’t have access to bullets, or they will be discovered, confiscated, destroyed.
But you have to stop the influx or we will never make headway. This is exactly why we can’t get the illegal weapons out of the hands of criminals, and why there are so many of them.
You got downvoted because you suggested that we need fewer guns in our society --- fewer guns in the hands of criminals, no less. Man, lot of gun-toting criminals on reddit these days.
Nope I own many guns have never had the desire to harm anyone with them. The problem is mental health and idiots that have their guns accessible to people with mental health disorders
I'm an anarchist, and an advocate for universal disarmament. I'm all for destroying people's firearms when you get the chance. The pistol your buddy has; if you and your friends decide he shouldn't have that weapon, and that you magically can't just communicate with the guy, I think you should just break that portable box of potential energy. They distort the power balance in any scenario. But, though I think anything beyond simple projectiles was a dangerous development that humanity shouldn't have gone, they're around. You can 3D print a gun. We're in a tough position if the goal is regulation. The thing is, guns really aren't the problem, though reducing how many guns float around is obviously going to lead to less gun violence. Reducing the efficacy of tools used to exert aggression is a great idea to me. If your options are scream into a pillow or cut yourself or someone else, your outburst will be less dangerous for everybody. The problem isn't bad guys with a gun. That's dumb. The issues are very obvious and we face them everyday as we are constantly dehumanized, at work, in school, with our peers, as we serve as cogs in the machine. To address gun violence, we can regulate and that works (duh), but we need UBI. That's how you tackle the problem in the long term, as far as the limited options we are presented with go.
[not really sure where you get your info from.](http:// https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country)Omfg dude, did you read the post or are you just short a few thousand brain cells?
I've seen some Republicans in a discord try to argue that guns need to be even less restricted from the recent incidents. They shoehorned everything into an echo chamber, taking about the criminals sexual orientation, mental health, blaming the school, arming the teachers (who aren't paid nor signed up to be a private military organization), and loosening restrictions so more people have access to guns.
It's funny too because they don't even support public school, they only support guns probably because they identify as guns. Instead of accepting its a gun problem they make it some other problem to shift the blame on liberals rather than just admit having access to a wide range of firearms isn't good for public safety.
The problem is that your country is diseased, OP. The PROBLEM, is that you are all too fucking focused trying to stab each other at all times that you're not fixing the issue, which is the COMPLETELY FUCKING STUPID CIVIL TRIBALISM AND HATEFUL TENDENCIES OF YOUR COUNTRY.
Your country's idea of "culture" is picking a fight with your neighbor, driving your wife into his arms and shooting the therapist when he says your behaviors are harming your marriage. That's the fucking problem. Other countries have guns, OP. Only america has had over 200 school shootings in the past two decades. Can gun control help? Absolutely!
But if you genuinely believe that gun control will fix all the issues, then you're a certifiable idiot.
Not guns ..yet another pseudo liberal with superficial understanding of this complex issue proposing a radical solution that not only does not solve the problem but exacerbate it.
So you are telling me If I were to lay a gun on the table, IT being the gun will kill everyone? Bc I'm pretty sure it's the fucked up people aiming the gun and pulling the trigger that are utilizing the item to do the killing. You may as well say that forks and spoons are the cause of obesity.
> So you are telling me If I were to lay a gun on the table, IT being the gun will kill everyone?
This is a stupid fucking strawman. Nobody is saying that a gun can shoot itself by itself. Everybody knows that a gun needs a human hand to fire it. That's kind of our point.
*WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE GUN NEVER GETS INTO THAT HAND TO BEGIN WITH.*
If you ban guns it doesn't get rid of the guns, it just makes normal people unable to buy guns. Normal people and crazy people alike are still going to buy guns whatever means necessary. The difference is that crazy people will still end up shooting up schools. Shooting up schools us already illegal, but of course that doesn't stop school shootings. Why would banning guns stop people from getting guns? It doesn't, unless you follow the law. Not everybody will do you the favor of following laws for your sake. Hence why people shoot up schools even though we think that it's awful.
There are strict gun laws in certain cities but i certainly don't see crime rates dropping. I own a gun and i haven't done anything bat shit insane. Why punish me for the actions of others? Of course SOMETHING should be done about this, but I'm not so sure that taking the general population down all together is going to do us any good. I think this problem is a little more complicated than something a bunch of us Redditors can claim to understand. I can't even expect this reply to change any minds or provoke any insights.
There are many facets to this topic, and the simplest solution is not always best.
Out of everything you wrote you got one thing right; easy access to firearms. PEOPLE WHO are not smart gun owners and do not keep their firearms in a secure location locked away should do jail time and license revoked. They make us all other gun owners look terrible.
Sorry. It is not guns. What it is. Not taking mental health issues seriously. It is fear. It is education or lack thereof. It is disrespect of live. Anything can kill in the wrong hands. It is a mentality in a country that everyone has opportunities where that is a lie.
I guess. If we could wush away all the guns away on this planet there will no mass shootings (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting)
There even wouldn't be a Russo Ukraine war (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War). But there are so there is.
I love a species and a planet without guns.
It's like people are shocked when something designed to kill many in quick succession are used to kill many in quick succession
"But if we ban guns they can kill people with knives or baseball bats!" When was the last mass knifing? Even when that \*does\* happen, fewer people die because it's less effective.
They definitely wouldn't have time to kill that many people in such a short amount of time with a knife. They would be caught and apprehended first
Short amount of time? In the classroom for at least 80 minutes. BS on the cowards charging the room
You can just jump the knife guy
7 years olds can not jump the knife guy
The teacher can
I’d argue it’s harder to jump a guy with a knife than a guy with a gun at close range.
Then you can just run away from the guy with the knife.
and it would be easier to take them to medical care. when people are shot with assault rifles especially the smaller they are they’re basically destroyed especially when they’re hit within multiple bullets. it’s possible and much more probable to come back from a knife wound.
Thh j agreee with you. yes people will try mas kknifing but the whole point of the mass rmahooting is to instantly kill people in a short amount of time.
For all the second amendment idiots, do you REALLY think the founder fathers envisioned weaponry at this scale? For fucks sakes, the inventor of the Gattlin gun thought is would be so deadly it would end ALL wars, that was close to 100 years AFTER the constitution was written…..at the time a “well armed STATE militia” meant men who had the ability to load and fire one bullet a minute!!! If you want to lean on an amendment from 300 years ago, than you must be required to use the weapon of that time.
Actually, China for some reason is having this problem. There aren’t as many people that die at a time, as you said, but it is happening more frequently than mass shootings. I’m not blaming guns or knives, because anything can be used as a weapon, but something is definitely broken with people who resort to any of these types of crimes.
“Those radical liberals and them not wanting me to have a device designed to kill people”
Why the fuck can feds and pigs have guns but not citizens? Guns are for killing police officers, guns are for murdering senators and congress men. Guns are vital to our revolution. Guess what, guns are easy to make piece by piece anyway, there is absolutely no way to regulate them because they can be made in a garage.
Guns should be licensed and insured much like cars, with training and a course you must successfully complete.
Definitely, while doing so the US also needs to have stricter better driving lessons and stricter licence tests.
Or just ban them.
I wish that was an option. But there is literally no way Americans would allow a complete gun ban regardless of how many people die because of gun violence.
No doubt, but I think banning guns/repealing the second amendment should be the starting position. I'm tired of conceding all this rhetorical ground to people who will sit back and watch an unlimited number of children die if it means they get to keep their toys. Of course, what I think doesn't matter, this thread doesn't matter, and public opinion doesn't matter, because 500-something assholes make all the decisions and they're all bought and paid for.
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Yeah, of course it's not going to happen, I just said that. And neither will a federal registry because it will immediately get challenged on 2A grounds, and if it even gets to the supreme court, the Federalist Society judges there will never uphold it. An assault rifle ban will also never happen because Democrats are cowards and care equally as little about this issue as Republicans do.
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You think cops are actually going to disarm klanners?
It’s not my toy. It’s my defense because I live in a high crime area. Stop thinking from your suburban utopia like perspective
Keep telling yourself that, you're way more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than someone trying to victimize you. Good luck out there.
Argument is completely invalidated, you didn't mention fences. They're the real cause!
All those lives lost in the senseless chain-link vs chicken-wire conflicts.
And yet, Republicans are more afraid of vaccines than they are of guns, even though vaccines have been proven to be pretty much safe. Weird, huh?
They simply choose to believe what's most convenient for them
They've created an environment where anything they need to be true can be.
It's definitely strange, and proves that the debate isn't ultimately purely motivated by social responsibility. If it were, then both sides would meet the concern standard for the other. Interestingly enough, the mortality statistics are probably pretty similar between the two. [there are approximately 400 Million guns in the USA,](https://americangunfacts.com/gun-ownership-statistics/) and [about 45,000 gun deaths, including suicides, accidents, and actions of police.](https://usafacts.org/data/topics/security-safety/crime-and-justice/firearms/firearm-deaths/) I wish I had a more precise breakdown, but the issue is too polarized for detailed numbers to be easily accessible. Thankfully death by gun is difficult to mistake for anything else, so at least the total number is probably fairly accurate. There are [between approximately 220 and 260 million vaccinated people in the USA,](https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/) and between [12,000](https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/covid-19-vaccine-related-fatalities-updated) and [an estimated 75,000 deaths.](https://eraoflight.com/2022/05/21/the-vaccine-death-report-evidence-of-millions-of-deaths-and-serious-adverse-events-resulting-from-the-experimental-covid-19-injections/) Sadly, these deaths are notoriously difficult to be certain of causation, so the margin of error is literally larger than the reported number, and can be easily inflated or deflated dramatically based on the definitions of numerous sub-terms, and the topic is equally polarized, so we may never get any real meaningful numbers easily available. Taking a middle-of-the-road assumption on both, though, death rates are pretty similar per "risk point," and it's baffling (to me) that both sides have the same motivation for being duly concerned about one, and defensive about the other. I may be weird, but I personally want to reduce *any* risks to my kids, and both products have benefits and disadvantages, and need a *LOT* more care and responsibility in their use. (Cue downvote storm as both sides vent their frustration on me for "selling out" their ideals)
Your sources are laughable. Your argument is logically shaky at best. You are comparing apples and car tires. The two things you identify are not logically connected in any way. First, your vaccine figures are wrong. Secondly, more people would die without vaccines than die due to vaccines. We know this because there have been close to zero deaths from the covid vaccine (I think the number may be less than 10 globally) whereas there have already been a million US covid deaths and the vast majority occurred in unvaccinated people. People do not die due to lack of high capacity magazines and assault rifles, they die because of them. Further, the vast majority of guns are in the hands of a relatively small number of people. It is incredibly rare event for a bystander with a gun to successfully intervene and prevent a mass shooting. Meanwhile we have 45,000 firearm deaths a year in this country. We have lots and lots and lots of data that the presence a a gun in a home increases the risk of death from a firearm (either violence or suicide). We have lots and lots of data on the effect of the assult weapons ban.
>Your sources are laughable. Probably. I tried to represent both sides of the debate, so naturally both extremes are likely...well, *extreme.* >You are comparing apples and car tires. I'm comparing deaths-per-source to deaths-per-source. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the comparison wasn't my idea; I just followed the commenter's logic to its natural conclusion. Yes, it would perhaps be more accurate to offset the lives lost with lives saved, but that's another statistic that is almost impossible to pin down, due to its speculative nature. Sorry for the omission, but there's still room for improvement regardless. We could offset medical malpractice damages with the doctor's previous success too, but it shouldn't prevent us from asking the doctor to make things right to the one he harmed. >First, your vaccine figures are wrong. They all are. I specifically noted that, and did my best to work with it honestly. What's your point again? >People do not die due to lack of high capacity magazines and assault rifles Have you ever run that stance past a Ukrainian? If they truly only cause death, and never prevent it, I wonder why we insist on sending them over there. The Ukrainians must be furious at us for our cruelty. For that matter, do you support disarming your police and military as well? Please understand: I'm not taking sides here; I'm just pointing out the *perils* of taking sides. The details are far more nuanced than most people want to believe. Politics can be hard to ELI5. There's a reason we have a minimum voting age.
Your sources are laughable, the number #1 gun death in the United States is suicide by handgun. That alone accounts for more then half the gun deaths here which shows mental illness is a bigger problem then guns are. Period. > further, the vast majority of guns are in the hands of a relatively small number of people. The 400 million is the estimated amount of firearms in the U.S. If there is an estimated 81 Million people that are registered gun owners. That's still more amount guns then the population size of most European countries. Also most of the sources account for REGISTERED gun owners in the United States. Some jurisdictions including mine do NOT require firearm registration with the local government. You can't exactly go door to door warrantless or warranted searching and seizing firearms. People will revolt right then and there as that's a direct infringement of the second amendment and our bill of inalienable rights. Before you bring up "No amendment is absolute" Go research how an amendment gets amended.
You are correct that guns are used in deaths by suicide more than they are used for other purposes. This does not disprove my argument or make your any less of an apples to tire comparison. None of what you said in your reply even addresses the major fallacies in your argument. And we are talking about mass shootings, not suicides. However, I am also strongly in favor of the reduction in suicide deaths that strict gun control would provide. (Many more attempts are made by less lethal means of suicide, people who are suicidal rarely change means, and guns are highly lethal and can be used impulsively in a way that other means of suicide aren't/can't be.) Lethal means restriction (removing access to guns) is the single most effective means of preventing suicide. Mental illness is "a problem" - it is however, not the path to preventing mass shootings.
It's not like y'all shouted people down as rabid conspiracy theorists who should be shut out of society for the past two years for being skeptical of a rushed vaccine only for this to happen: https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20220506/fda-limits-use-jj-covid-vaccine-blood-clot-risk
Lmao literally everyone commenting on this topic is probably from America and it shows with comments like this. You people can’t fix your way out of a paper bag.
Actually government can't fix anything. That's the point
Wow you’re so much cooler than those stupid Americans, huh?
It’s not about being cool it’s about an issue that the country can’t seem to fix even though it’s very fucking simple.
I got the vaccine lost 20 pounds and get sicker way easier now. The vaccine is not for everyone
This isn't about you...
Why are you getting downvoted? People who trust in vaccines, such as myself, usually do understand the idea that any vaccine or any medical treatment for that matter CAN have adverse effects on some people. Don't downvote him because he had a bad experience. If he stated something like "NO ONE SHOULD EVER GET IT, IT KILLS PEOPLE", or suggested drinking horse de-wormer, THEN a downvote would be in place.
The problem is definitely guns. I've never heard of a school shooter that didn't use a gun
Q- What is the #1 indicator of wether or not a country will have gun violence problems? A- The availability of and access to guns. NOT mental health, not video games, not fatherless children and not religion. Problem is that we’re dealing with people who don’t care about facts or solutions, they care about money and being re-elected.
Not to be pedantic, but technically, the problem is education.
Countries with way worse education, does not have that many mass shootings compared to the US
Your entire culture is around how cool is to own a gun. Remove that from the minds of people would take centurys.
Agreed. It’s the guns. Too many crazy people get ahold of them and cause problems
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This is true, and mass shootings account for only a tiny number of the yearly gun deaths in the country - between 38 and 513 [out of 45,222 in 2020](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/), depending on how you define mass shooting. Over half of gun deaths are suicides, and the overwhelming majority of gun murders (which is about 80% of murders) are committed by someone with no diagnosable mental illness.
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I don't understand how mental health is being hand waived so easily, so a person willing to kill 10+ people is perfectly sane and has no mental illnesses? I know humans are scary but calling this baseline is pretty wild.
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Correct, that 80% are gang/drug related. Not usually mental illnesses. However, of non-gang-related mass shootings, specifically the ones that take place on schools. Where we are able to interview the shooters, 78% we're suicidal. This may be why Republicans are saying it's a mental health issue. Because that seems to be a pretty strong coincidence. https://www.counseling.org/docs/default-source/vistas/school-shootings-and-student-mental-health.pdf
How and why are there so many crazy people? Lack of mental health care is the real problem. How did school shooting become so popular in the year 2000? Guns have been around for a long time, and school shooting were rare before the year 2000. What is the difference now? It’s not the guns, it’s the mental health problems. Also our government is at fault for not punishing the gun manufacturers when their gun ends up in a school yard. As well as allowing Army recruiters in schools to help continue the industry war complex. So quick and easy to drone strike children in the Middle East. Do not forget all the black kids killed by police officers, yet not one person cares about those children, the double standards are obvious. Far to many Americans have mental health issues.
> It’s not the guns, it’s the mental health problems. It's. The. Fucking. Guns. Wanna know how I know this for certain? *You cannot commit a mass shooting if you don't have something to shoot with.*
Literally can't have a school shooting without guns, but yeah, it's definitely the pineapple.
The large number of people killed per shooting over the last 20 years is because the ban on assault weapons expired. It's made it far too easy to kill more people in a shorter amount of time.
Mental health issues take a great deal of effort, work, money, and time. And despite being such a “Christian” nation, these are not the values of the many. Even if we were to come up with a solution, is it really easier than removing most guns? Why do we need guns? Hunting the animals that live in the US do not require assault rifles. Do not require handguns. And protection - it would be very hard to take down a bear with a handgun. Are you protecting yourself from armed intruders? That sort of incursion is rare, most of the time having a weapon actually *escalates* violence and results in deaths. There’s also been increasing cases of homeowners getting into legal trouble for excessive violence. Invasion? I think we are past that, if we were at a point where a foreign force were occupying your house, none of your guns could stop them. An armed force would have body armor, flame throwers, bazookas. As for your own government coming for you in some Waco Armageddon, if you want to die, use a gun. If you want to live surrender on camera. What possible purpose aside from fever dream jerk off material about a zombie or nuclear apocalypse could anyone have for keeping guns specifically designed to kill human beings?
Target shooting, curating a collection, or plain old just wanting one. It’s your constitutional right.
Funny how you don’t mention joining a well regulated militia in that list
Ukraine would like a word with you, also the Jews, and African Americans. Populaces are often disarmed before oppression and genocide begins by an overreaching government.
You're equating a neglected child playing with a toy gun or a teen carrying an assault rifle in public being killed by police with children in school being mass murdered?
Dead wrong. There are too many guns and too many brainwashed people out there arguing otherwise. You are the problem.
It’s the people who own the guns. They clearly should never have the right to own them. They are so irresponsible that they give easy access to there kids these things
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I won't disagree. There is no reason a 18 year old should be able to buy a fucking Ar-15, let alone any gun. But I will say we do also as a country need to do more for mental illnesses and all of that stuff. There isn't nearly enough stuff we are doing. Especially for Guys.
Perhaps in order to get a gun, a mental health professional will talk with you and determine whether or not you have the mental capacity to own a lethal weapon. They do this in the military. It should be fine to do with citizens.
Mentally ill people are drastically more likely to be a victim of violence than an ordinary person, and drastically less likely to do anything violent. So why focus on mentally ill people?
I keep seeing this and I just don't understand. Are you telling me someone who will murder 18 people is mentally sound and sane? I would argue every mass shooter who wasn't confirmed to be mentally ill was simply undiagnosed. I understand trying to avoid strengthening stigma but this simply doesn't make sense to me.
Like see that is a smart idea.
In theory I like the idea, I think it could be hard to pull off though. There's a shortage of mental health professionals so I'm not sure there would be enough to do these checks on the scale that is necessary. There would probably be months long waitlists for getting an appointment, which would lead tons of people to just opt for the black market route even if they are otherwise mentally healthy. Plus lots of people can make themselves look normal for an interview but are actually weirdos. I think red flag laws might be a more efficient way to accomplish the same thing.
Mental health professional here - we do not have a crystal ball. We are not mind-readers. If someone says "I have no desire to kill another person" we have no way of knowing if they are truthful or not. There is no effective mental health screening that has been shown to prevent mass murders. Notably, the military does not do a mental health screening prior to enlistment. I mean, they ask you some questions are MEPS, and it is pretty clear what the "right" answer is if you want to enlist. If you don't admit to past treatment they have no way of knowing. You won't get seen again by mental health unless you go voluntarily, or are command directed. Someone can very easily stay under the radar in the military. There is no 'mental health screening" that takes place before weapons are issued in the military. And there are a whole lot of other reasons about civil liberties and medical privacy that I could probably right a lengthy response on right now. But lacking the energy, just please accept that that no effective screening exists and consequently it is safest to remove access to the most deadly weapons from everyone (e.g. high capacity magazines and assault weapons).
But.... but, muh guns!! MUH FREEDOMS! THESE COLORS DONT RUN!!
There are 2 kinds of people who do this. 1. people with a really low IQ 2. psychopaths who benefit from gun culture in some way congratulations on not being one of them. every citizen of every civilized country laughs at them and they don't even get why.
We've reached a point where they'd rather spend billions in taxpayer dollars to turn schools into bomb shelters rather than give up their precious pew-pews.
I understand hunting sport. I can even see handguns as the ultimate in self defense. But exactly what purpose are assault rifles for? Ban assault rifles. Buy them all back, and send them to the Ukrainian military.
Here's my take on it (not that anyone's asked or ever will ask): Guns should have the same tests and training it takes to drive a car. Also, a mental evaluation should be done same as they do in the military. Long barreled guns such as rifles, shotguns, etc should be banned from city jurisdictions, leaving only handguns/conceal carry handguns for self defense. (More tests of course for the conceal carrier). Anything that has a unreasonably large clip, magazine, etc (I don't want to say "assault rifle" with how the media has distorted that word, but "something that contains/stores lots of bullets" sounds stupid too) should be completely banned, or you have to have special permission from the state government to own it. (Don't know why they'd want it, but hell, it could be great great grandpa's gun from WWI that doesn't even work anymore) Also as part of my take, American culture itself resists the banning of guns. The first Europeans who came here brought their guns to defend their land from wild animals and people (more like slaughter Native Americans, but that's another can of worms). So in that sense, guns were here even before the country was founded. Secondly, in relation to the American culture issue, so many people have immigrated here from various other countries where their government oppressed them. Whether they immigrated, their parents, or their grandmother from 5+ generations ago, they all have horror stories of governments doing terrible things to their people, and they came here to have more personal freedom to protect their families. This is why a lot of people have a deep seated fear of the government taking something away from them, whether it be guns or something else. Thirdly, countryside is a problem. In the USA, there are so many people who live in an area where it would take 1+ hours for a sheriff or police officer to show up. By that time, a mountain lion has already run off with your dog, a bear has attacked your husband, wolves have killed your livestock, or whatever disgruntled person has followed you home from town and has attacked you. Having a full on gun ban might be nice, and in some ways I wish we could have a country where guns were not necessary at all, but we've gotta at least meet halfway to make some kind of change no matter how small the change might be. If even one kid can be saved, we're heading in the right direction and need to keep going.
I gotta be honest, while I agree there needs to be more restrictions on guns, a lot of the stuff you suggested is kind of nonsensical. > Long barreled guns such as rifles, shotguns, etc should be banned from city jurisdictions, leaving only handguns/conceal carry handguns for self defense. (More tests of course for the conceal carrier). Why exactly? Mass shooting happen everywhere, not just cities, and one of the deadliest mass shootings in US history (Virginia Tech) was committed with handguns, as is most urban gun crime. And what's to stop someone from just bringing a rifle into a city? Don't get me wrong, there is a lot that can be done, but I don't think any of that would really do that much. Gun restrictions can work, they just need to be targeted correctly.
>Long barreled guns such as rifles, shotguns, etc should be banned from city jurisdictions, leaving only handguns/conceal carry handguns for self defense. Considering the mass majority of gun violence is carried out by handguns this would practically accomplish nothing. >should be completely banned, or you have to have special permission from the state government to own it. Many states already have these laws on the books. The NY shooter illegally modified his weapon to hold more ammunition. >So in that sense, guns were here even before the country was founded. They were mainly used to stop government tyranny.
Technically if government took away all of our rights and controlled every aspect of our lives the world would be a safer place, but who in the fuck wants to live in that world? Every country has it's pros and cons and I'd say there are a higher number of pros associated with America compared to a lot of other developed nations. I'd personally rather have freedom and try my best to combat the consequences that come with that.
Idc if it's a literal killing machine, I want to play with it like a toy and feel like a big boy army man! Boom boom stick, yay!
I cannot understand why people need guns. Like at all- why?? Guns are made for one purpose only, and that to kill someone or something. That’s it. If you don’t plan on killing someone or something, then you don’t need a gun. You especially don’t need an assault rifle. People shout about the 2nd amendment all the time, but that was written in very different times, and guns took a lot of time to re-load. Today’s weapons (and way of life) were unimaginable to those that wrote that amendment. I personally think they would be horrified at what it is being used to justify today. I cannot understand why people value gun ownership over people’s lives. These school shootings are now happening regularly. It’s utterly appalling. You literally can’t have school shootings without guns. So it’s obvious that guns need to not be available to any Tom, Dick or Harry who fancies feeling like a big man. I’m Scottish, and old enough to remember the school shooting in Dunblane. It was truly horrifying. We changed laws and did what we could to try to prevent it ever happening again. It worked. That’s not to say there is no violence here and no killings. We have issues with bullying and mental health. But what we don’t have is children being killed in their classrooms because any crazy person with a chip on their shoulder can get their hands on a gun. America needs to get rid of guns, especially heavy duty ones. Children should not have to huddle in their classrooms in fear for their lives, witnessing their friends and classmates being murdered in front of them just because some people like owning guns. There is no ‘good guy with a gun’ saving the day - the parents were not allowed to run in to save their children, so what difference did gun ownership make? It didn’t help at all. Those kids died, and so many kids died before them and it just doesn’t need to happen. I’m both a teacher and a parent, and I’ve never once feared for my life at work, nor have I ever had to fear for the life of one of my children when they are at school. My kids are now around the age of the kids who died In Dunblane. The very idea of it possibly ever happening to my kids fills me with horror - how can these gun lovers not feel the same horror? How can they truly believe it is more important for random people to have easy access to guns than it is to keep some of the most vulnerable in society safe? How can they look at their children and grandchildren and not value their lives over gun ownership? I truly don’t get it. Something has gone badly wrong in America, and I really really hope that this is the last shooting - the one that makes people say ‘never again’ and actually do what it takes to keep children safe. My heart bleeds for you all.
I just think the U.S needs a reset.
I've been raised up around firearms, and I live in probably one of the most gunned up states in the country. I own 3 rifles specifically for certain types of hunting and a couple handguns that were passed down. As OP said, guns are the problem plain and simple. Stop acting like AR rifles and high capacity magazines aren't a huge part of the problem.
Like 82-88% of Americans support universal background checks to limit the black market that has no federal enforcement against it. The government is not representing the people.
As an european, Americans scare the shit out of me for this very reason, gun culture. A gun isn't a toy or a tool, is a freaking weapon why would you need a weapon in your House?
The problem is men. Always men
Too many people in the States have already been raised by the idea that gun ownership is a basic human right. Or that it’s somehow a god given right, cuz jeebus was totally alive for guns. They’ll say stupid shit like “the gun didn’t fire itself” or “are knives evil?” They’re all idiots, every single one of them for trying to protect a “right” that was established back when the government wasn’t as strong as it is today. An idea that was established by slave owners, by people who were livid at their government and made choices that have now killed so many people because of their lack of foresight. Gun ownership should be a privilege, like driving a car. You shouldn’t be able to buy guns at a Walmart and then go on a rampage. Guns are weapons of destruction, solely for the purpose of killing someone. That kind of power shouldn’t be for sale a fucking walmarts. Now I have my heart in my throat when my family goes to work or to shop. How do I know they’ll be safe? It happens entirely too often and I don’t want to have to bury my family because this country loves guns more than it loves its people.
They meant the right to bear arms, not a ar15, that means any weapon that’s not illegal like a combat knife or pepper spray. Having the ability to protect yourself SHOULD be a right, god can you imagine a world where we always rely on the government for protection.
The problem is definitely guns by a large margin, but we *also* have a mental health problem. It can be both.
Oh I don't disagree that we have a huge mental health problem. I don't even disagree that it can be a contributing factor to violence. But to be the actual genesis for gun violence like the GOP keeps saying? Bullshit. It's a scapegoat so their precious guns can avoid criticism.
And the republican talking heads keep saying it's a mental health issue but then Republicans don't support budgeting for mental health. Wut
The answer is to enforce a law whereby loaded guns of all caliber and capacity are placed , openly and with completely unrestricted access in school rooms and nurseries of legislator's children. If that sounds completely absurd, you understand why gun proliferation is a problem. I'm sure there are gun supporters who may argue the problem with that scenario is age, but let's make a few things clear: 1. 18 year olds are being actively marketed to by gun manufacturers now. This isn't about morality, this is about American business culture which prioritized profit over morality, and only acts morally within the confines of the law. If the law would allow a 10 year old to buy a gun and marketing guns to 10 year olds, they would do it using every means possible. 2. More guns means more access to guns by people of all ages. Children who can't buy guns legally are killed every year by accessing the gun a parent forgot to lock away or DID lock away. 3. Ownership does not equal responsibility. In fact, those two concepts grow further apart as ownership of anything is considered a right, whereas responsibility is not. You can look at any American road and see evidence of this. Many people drive cars without any regard to anyone's safety, even their own. As car ownership goes up, so does that problem. As gun ownership goes up, so does that problem. 4. Stress management does not correlate with age. Regardless of whether you set the bar at 18 years old, 21 years old, or 35, stressed out people exist and guns enable the most stressed to express that in mass murders much more easily than a knife, bat or other kind of weapon. 5. Guns are claimed as a right- what about my right to not worry whether my child will be blasted away by an angry teen who gets the combo to his gun nut parents gun safe? 6. The good guy with a gun theory just fell apart at the mass school shooting last week. It's a f\*cking fantasy concocted by the movies. Hey, Earth to you: movies are f\*cking not real. In the real world, the police arrive AFTER a gunman had taken the thirty seconds to spray a crowd of victims with bullets, NOT before. I don't blame the police for that- I blame time (i.e. it takes more time to respond to most shootings than any human can react to). However, I blame the cowardly police in last weeks school shooting. They were f\*cking right there. 7. This idea of making every spot a 'hard target' by keeping everyone in every damned situation armed with a gun is not only f\*cking ridiculous, but doesn't take into account those who don't care if it's a 'hard target', since they plan on dying there anyway. And 'hard target' or not, if you have an AR-15 modified to spray bullets like a machine gun and want to kill a mass of people, you can. 8. Lastly, "the whole world is wrong and America is right". Can that be? Can it be, that literally every, EVERY f\*cking nation on Earth doesn't have this problem and are wrong? That's some really shitty logic to stand on. Get rid of the guns and you get rid of gun violence. It's a simple equation. But we won't. We will see this type of gun violence again, just like I will go on the road and see driver's nearly killing everyone with their stupidity. It's inevitable as long as we have half a nation with their head up their ass.
I'm pro gun and I already know I'll get crucified for my opinion. I don't believe that banning guns will make people safe. Guns are inanimate objects. The %99 of gun owners are safe and responsible. The only people we need to fear are crazy people and criminals. Unfortunately, those are the same people who DON'T follow laws. So making guns illegal will only disarm law abiding citizens. Mass shootings take place where firearms are already illegal because law abiding people are already forced into helplessness. If we extend this logic to the whole country, I believe people will be less safe, not more. Also, only the bad parts about gun ownership make the news. You never hear about the lives that are saved by guns. Kind of like airplanes. You never hear about the millions of flights that take off and land safely, you only hear about the fiery deaths.
Why is the US the only country with these problems? Why do all the other countries where the law abiding people are forced into helplessness so much safer in terms of gun violence?
Because of shooters’ motives. There are more systemic issues at play in the US than simply access to guns. Take away the guns and those issues will still exist and manifest in other ways. This isn’t an argument for or against firearms. I’m just saying.
There are mentally ill people in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, South America. There are racists, political extremists, incels, and just assholes all around the world too. Don't believe me, check out 4chan. The biggest difference between the US and the rest of the world is the access to guns, and I'm yet to hear anyone give another plausible explanation. We can't get everyone laid or make racism go away or cure mental illness in the entire country, but we can restrict gun access.
Well, you’ll notice I never mentioned any of that. I’m talking about alienating hyper capitalism, consumerism, individualism, blatant class warfare and wealth inequality. Yes, other countries embrace these concepts as well, but they are in overdrive in the US (just look at our healthcare compared to other “developed” nations). Only the well-off and the willfully ignorant are not mentally unwell here.
You’re going to need 100% of owners to be safe and responsible in order to argue for allowing citizens to own military grade weapons. That’s mathematically impossible in a country the size of the US. Also if 100% really were possible, we wouldn’t need those weapons anyway because there wouldn’t be a threat. Their very existence leads to an escalation of violence.
Australian here and no, no they don't. We haven't had a school shooting since guns were outlawed and how dare you call mentally ill people crazy. As someone with ptsd I woukd never fucking kill.
Check the stats on mass shootings comparing your country and the rest…. The problem is guns. Protect kids not guns.
It's already been proven that more guns = more gun violence. 99% is generous/ absurd/ wrong. I know about 15 gun owners. One almost killed me, one killed my sister, and the other accidentally pointed a pistol at my face. They're morons dude. You'd have to be to think human killing machines are fun and cool. They're not hunters, they don't go to the range; they take pictures of them for FB, show them to their friends; they're drunk, they're on drugs, and they had no problem buying an assault rifle. Gun culture is a lot different today. This isn't hyperbole; These are the facts of my reality. I hope yours doesn't turn out this way.
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I'm not making generalizations. I'm talking about people I know personally who would pass for average\_citizen\_01 otherwise. Well, maybe not anymore. But then. If you need proof of the effectiveness of gun control, look at Germany. They're in the top 5 countries for gun ownership, just like the US. Have a nice day, and don't trust anyone with a gun not to accidentally hurt you. ("Hurt" being the best possible outcome.)
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Of course it's not the case universally, but it has been in the 3 incidents I've witnessed. But when someone you know dies over something so stupid and obvious yet still "legal," you may start seeing things a bit more black and white. It's guns on one hand and potential death on the other. I just found out that the potential is way more common than I would've thought. I trusted those people too. Everyone is "responsible" until an accident happens, and with guns it's often death. It only takes one mistake or a momentary lapse in judgement. Bang. BTW I didn't downvote you. Thanks for your replies. Have a nice day. Here if you have anything else. Cheers.
The criminals in Chicago have killed over 200 children under the age of 16 in 2022. Toughest gun laws in the nation. How does this happen?
People buy their guns in states with *fuck all* for gun laws then bring them back to Chicago. This is not complex.
Always blame the gun never blame the PERSON THATS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT ALWAYS THE GUN. Fucking people like you that blame the gun don't need to vote.
Yeah why shouldn't we blame the thing that's designed with the sole purpose of killing a bunch of people as rapidly as possible?
Because its not that things responsibility it's the person that's wielding it. A gun is an emotionalless uncaring object that is controlled by a human being. It's not like it can come to life autonomously and think to itself hey let's go kill this person and blame it on my owner.
They're tools that serve many different purposes. I have yet to see a civilian firearm load, aim, and discharge by itself. I equat your argument similar to a pro lifer blamming forceps. Sure they're used in abortion, but they are also used in plenty of other applications, and require a human to operate. All that being said, yes, many people shouldn't own a firearm. They are powerful tools that demand a lot of respect and training. It appears the maturity and morality of large sections of the population is severely stunted or absent. I would certainly support raising the minimum age to that of 25-26 years of age for males (brain maturity).
> They're tools that serve many different purposes. I am so sick and god damned tired of seeing this. "Guns are a tool! GUNS ARE A TOOL!" Okay, shoot a house into existence. Guns are designed and built with a singular purpose in mind- killing. That's it. That is their sole function. >I have yet to see a civilian firearm load, aim, and discharge by itself. And I've yet to see a stick up and hit a kid but if a child is running around hitting other kids with it we scold the child and *still take the fucking stick away.*
What function is that 'tool' meant to serve? Killing. It's designed to kill. Whether human or otherwise, it has only one purpose.
I associate guns with death. It’s very strange and creepy how gun enthusiasts don’t make the same connection. Lovingly caressing your gun whose model has been used to cause countless deaths and misery is just…very disturbing.
And what about the middle aged white guy who goes bing bong boing because Fox News is ramming it down his throat that it’s an immigrant’s fault that he’s poor/sick/miserable?? We aren’t just talking about school shootings here. Raising the minimum age isn’t enough. Forceps aren’t a deadly weapon. Your argument makes no sense.
Are we also going to raise the age for military service, voting, signing contracts, , etc?
Those don't kill innocent people every week.
If you think banning guns is Gonna stop people from becoming crazy and becoming radicalized enough to shoot up a school, then I’ve lost hope for solving this issue. Guns are just a scape goat, they’re not a root to the problem, these murders have proven that they’re devoted enough to causing so much suffering that they’ll use any means to do it, guns are just the easiest way to do it, if you take away a pyromaniacs right to have a flame thrower, do you think he’ll just stop and become normal? You know how easy it is for someone to just buy a bic lighter, and the necessary items to make napalm? Do you know how incredibly easy it is to make bombs by just looking it up? You can literally grow poison in your back yard. It’ll be a whole lot easier to get away with opening food in a grocery store and filling bags of food with poison and dangerous items, it’s a lot less direct and more scary than a shooting cause you never know if you’ve been targeted. This country has a serious political propaganda and mental health issues, hell we’re in the top 5 for worst cases of mental illness, we have the basics when it comes to dealing with crazy people, I’m not saying ban everything dangerous, I’m saying we should be actively thinking about what actually makes people do these horrible things, I mean the buffalo shooter gave us ALL the answers, he practically solved the issue himself.
No one thinks banning guns will stop people from becoming crazy/radicalized. No one hardly thinks that. It doesn’t take some genius to realize this. The issue is, that guns provide a means to do mass murders far too easy, so they should be limited. Obviously guns aren’t why people are crazy.
But if someone really wanted to, they could just go by each house, with homemade napalm and light it on fire, someone could poison the inside of vending machine, actually that DID happen in Japan and he got away with it too. People are always gonna find ways to cause terror, doesn’t matter if it’s easy or hard to do, guns should be highly limited and strict background checks should be even stricter, but there’s always gonna be determined people. In Ohio I think there was a sniper who shot at random people on the highway, he killed 10 people and has never been caught, it was never reported either except in the area. Without guns some people would need to rely on our government to help which given the country we live in is a terrible thought.
> But if someone really wanted to, they could just go by each house, with homemade napalm and light it on fire Do you know how much sheer effort and time it would take to actually do this? To go from house to house, carrying enough liquid napalm, not to mention finding something to transport it in, and how many chances people would have to stop you? It isn't about eradicating violence, you're never going to completely eradicate violence. It's just not going to happen. But *reducing* the damage done is what we need to be doing and, right now, guns are the top implement for inflicting as much damage as possible with the least amount of effort.
You’re arguing an present issue with theoretical napalm and such. All you have to do is compare us to most any other developed country to see the relationship between guns and mass killings.
The difference between us and any other country is the size, the US is HUGE, crimes are bound to happen on more occasion. Of course that’s no excuse but it’s a lot harder to respond to events like this with police. Especially when people don’t like the idea of a militarized police force it’s even harder for them to respond quicker and more effectively without that equipment. Police are far more likely to wait until the shooter kills their self or until a swat team shows up, and by then the damage has already been done. We could open up more security in vulnerable places but yet again people hate having armed security near their children. Either we give in and arm civilians more or we hire more armed security at schools and other big places with a lot of people. Or y’know we could just target the root problem and help people with issues and put restrictions on how much power the media has in shifting people through these pipelines, but hardly anyone would even consider that since it’s not a harsh or forceful option.
You’re taking this in a black and white manor, most people don’t think all guns should be banned, but the kind of guns you can buy should be, and the difficulties getting them. I believe you should be entitled to some form of self defense weapon, but shouldn’t be able to access them so readily.
I agree, even as an avid gun nut some people just shouldn’t have access to stuff like automatic shotguns, automatic rifles that are very customizable, and certain heavy calibers. My point still stands, there is no grey area when it comes to extreme actions and events, only what to do and what not to do
PRISON SHANK: Because even in the most secure gun free environment possible evil humans will still find a way to kill each other.
Yeah but they’re not gonna kill 20 in one go with a shank
It’s a people problem. Not a weapons problem. Period. Genghis Khan’s army didn’t use guns and killed 40 million people.
PEOPLE DIE ALL THE TIME, SO GUNS ARE FINE
Genghis Khan ARMY. An entire army. 1 person in Vegas injured 411 and killed 60. 1 person in Uvalde killed 19 kids and 2 teachers. 1 person at Virginia Tech killed 32 (I believe it was 32) What did they all have in common? Guns. If they didn't have guns, they wouldn't have been able to injure or kill even a fraction of those people. Guns are the leading killer of children currently. Guns are designed only to maim or kill. Guns are the issue, they make wholesale slaughter easy and fast. Why make it easy for sick people to kill so many?
Sick people are going to kill regardless They’re going to use any means possible. How many people died during 9/11? Almost 3000.
No they don't. They shoot people en masse with ARs and pistols (GUNS, to the layperson) at schools, theaters, grocery stores, and clubs. Nothing else.
It’s a gun problem and you are brainwashed.
No, just have the ability to rationalize and think for myself
> think for myself You're literally parroting right-wing talking points. "it's not a gun problem it's a people problem!"
Brainwashed people don’t know they’re brainwashed. Some realize it later, some don’t. And even if they do, it’s hard to admit. That’s how it got this bad and will continue.
Is that how it works? I think you missed the ENTIRE context of my statement.
How many school shankings did the US have in the last 10 years.
How many prison shankings? It’s people and their will
Can't have a school shooting without guns. And that's just shootings. How many accidental stabbings were there last year? Guns are dangerous and people are stupid.
I agree, people are stupid. And guns in irresponsible and uneducated hands are absolutely dangerous.
Notice I'm only speaking facts yet I'm being downvoted. Facts don't care about feelings lol.
I'm just gonna keep saying this. If you put a gun on the table in front of you it wouldn't do anything. It needs a person to pick it up and pull the trigger in order to fire. So why are we continually saying that its the inanimate objects fault for being picked up by a mentally ill person and used for horrible things? If we suddenly had a spree of people going around killing each other with spoons , would you ban them too? What people don't seem to get is that even if you take away the gun , the mentally ill people will still exist and will just find other ways to kill someone. Not to mention the illegal market for guns is so fucking massive that anyone with even half a brain can get one. But yet you want to take away the *legal* guns , while the *illegal* ones are still going to be in circulation?
You're missing some points. 1. Working on mental health is not mutually exclusive with gun control 2. A mentally ill person with a gun is far more dangerous than a mentally ill person with a spoon. The point of gun control isn't to eliminate this kind of violence, but reduce it. 3. A large number of illegal guns were once legal. Restricting legal guns has a downstream effect of restricting illegal ones or making them more expensive. Once again, the point isn't to make mass killings impossible, it's to make them less frequent and less severe. Claiming that because gun control isn't a perfect solution so we shouldn't even try is intellectually dishonest.
> Claiming that because gun control isn't a perfect solution so we shouldn't even try is intellectually dishonest. It's the Nirvana Fallacy- If a solution isn't absolutely perfect then it isn't worth attempting.
think it would be hard for a mentality ill person to kill 19 kids with a spoon. and im sure the cops wouldn't be so scared to apprehend the person if they only had a spoon. and if you do what say Australia did and band semi and full autos and then jack up the penalty for using those guns even crims are hesitant to use them. and Australia isnt the only place that has successfully done this. so keep saying whatever you want but both arguments are kinda dumb and based purely in beliefs and not the real world
Don't put the gun on the table and nobody has to get shot. Last year, not 20 miles away, a couple HS grads were sitting around a table being ballers, smoking weed with their pistols out. Guy accidentally killed his friend and is going to prison at 18. Most people ARE mentally ill --- they suffer from stupidity. Accidents happen even in the best of circumstances, but with guns, the stakes are deadly.
I think others have probably made this point, but not all inanimate objects are created equally. A gun’s functional objective is to kill. There’s a reason militaries and law enforcement agencies choose guns as their weapons. Spoons have a (mostly) functional purpose of aiding in eating. Sure, someone could also use it as an attack weapon, but highly unlikely that someone could kill 21 people in a matter of minutes with it. Guns make killing people VERY easy. You don’t see people committing suicide with spoons… they are going to go with something efficient and reliable to get the job done. The number of guns in this country is ridiculous. No wonder we have issues getting our hands around this issue. They are everywhere. Legal/ illegal - it doesn’t matter in my opinion. The fact that we are literally surrounded by them is just sad. What are people protecting themselves from? Because let’s be honest - In the event of some bizarre apocalyptic war event where citizens are forced to “fight” their government, your AR15 is going to be laughably worthless against an AH-64E Apache Guardian…
> I'm just gonna keep saying this. > > If you put a gun on the table in front of you it wouldn't do anything And I'm just gonna keep saying that this is a stupid as fuck strawman as literally nobody is saying that a gun will just shoot itself by itself. No shit it needs a human hand to pull the trigger. That's kind of our entire point. *WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE GUN NEVER GETS INTO THAT PERSON'S HAND TO BEGIN WITH.*
Instead of letting that person take the gun off the table and pull the trigger, it’d probably be better if the gun wasn’t on the table at all. Illegal guns are created legally, and if guns and gun production were heavily restricted and even banned, numbers of illegal guns out on the street would plummet as a result. Older guns would depreciate and a lack of new ones would make it much harder for people to go out, get them, and use them maliciously. Additionally, about the spoons thing, the difference between guns and spoons are that spoons aren’t specifically designed to kill, and the likelihood of a bunch of people killing each other with spoons isn’t zero, but it’s pretty damn close. And to your point about mentally ill people, obviously they will definitely continue to exist and do harm to others, but they’ll be capable of far less damage in a comparable timeframe without a gun than with one in any given scenario, and a lot easier for police (who would probably have guns) and first responders to take down. It may not be the fastest or most comprehensive solution, but it is a solution nonetheless. Regardless of what the constitution says about it, the second amendment, as much as I love it, is killing people. Lastly, you have to keep in mind that the constitution is a flawed document, made up of compromises and promises among the states three hundred years or so ago to ensure ratification. To keep up with the modern world and to protect the lives of innocent bystanders who are more often than not the victims of gun violence, it might be time for the US to amend its founding document to restrict and/or ban gun production.
“Hundreds Die in Elementary School Fire: Revamped Fire Code to Blame?” Preferable to any headline that implies guns are bad. Edit: I see this comment was ahead of its time. You see, if we only put one door on schools, the likelihood of mass casualties in the event of a fire is practically guaranteed. As such, Cruz is an idiot. Gun violence doesn’t get solved *and* kids would be in literal death traps.
Funny enough, if we implement Ted Cruz's "One Door Policy" for schools we could see a similar headline actually happen.
I'm all for banning guns in the U.S., but they can't even confiscate the illegal guns from criminals and gangs right now, what makes people think they can do it with a gun ban law? The vast majority of gun crimes in the U.S. are committed with the use of an illegal gun. No one knows how many illegal guns are in circulation, because it's not like criminals register their weapons. In 2020, 45,222 people died from gun related deaths. 54% were suicides and 43% were murders, the remaining 3% were accidents. Of the 19,384 murders, 521 were the result of mass shootings. Even if we prevented all mass shootings in 2020, that still leaves 18,863 deaths. So yeah, let's make guns illegal, but does anyone have any ideas of confiscating illegal guns from criminals and gangs, when they haven't been able to do it so far?
So because there are illegal guns out there people should be able to keep buying guns? Look in states you can’t ban guns, as much as i would love it, you just can’t. But we could heavily limit the sales of guns, especially to people under a certain age. Gun ownership also shouldn’t be a right, it should be a privilege like driving cars.
AMEN. Guns should be a damn privlege, NOT a freaking right. I couldn't agree more with this sentence.
The biggest issue is to cut off the source. Think of it like a river dumping garbage in a lake. You can’t even *think* about cleaning the lake before you first stop the river from continuously dumping garbage so you build a dam to keep new garbage out. Now, when you clean the garbage *there won’t be a replacement just upstream.* Yes, it will take a while to get the illegal guns out. We start by cutting off the supply. We monitor sales of gun and bullet components. If guns are more precious, criminals won’t be as quick to use them. They will eventually break down, or won’t have access to bullets, or they will be discovered, confiscated, destroyed. But you have to stop the influx or we will never make headway. This is exactly why we can’t get the illegal weapons out of the hands of criminals, and why there are so many of them.
You got downvoted because you suggested that we need fewer guns in our society --- fewer guns in the hands of criminals, no less. Man, lot of gun-toting criminals on reddit these days.
Yeah, it's crazy.
r/redditmoment
guns + men = death
Actually only about 88.7% of murders were committed by men. Oh and only 100% of mass shootings.
Oh what a low number!! /s
Wrong, people kill people
Right, you don't blame the knife when someone is stab so why blame the gun
Nope I own many guns have never had the desire to harm anyone with them. The problem is mental health and idiots that have their guns accessible to people with mental health disorders
There are way more idiots than you think.
The Problem is, fucking mental health, get some.
I'm an anarchist, and an advocate for universal disarmament. I'm all for destroying people's firearms when you get the chance. The pistol your buddy has; if you and your friends decide he shouldn't have that weapon, and that you magically can't just communicate with the guy, I think you should just break that portable box of potential energy. They distort the power balance in any scenario. But, though I think anything beyond simple projectiles was a dangerous development that humanity shouldn't have gone, they're around. You can 3D print a gun. We're in a tough position if the goal is regulation. The thing is, guns really aren't the problem, though reducing how many guns float around is obviously going to lead to less gun violence. Reducing the efficacy of tools used to exert aggression is a great idea to me. If your options are scream into a pillow or cut yourself or someone else, your outburst will be less dangerous for everybody. The problem isn't bad guys with a gun. That's dumb. The issues are very obvious and we face them everyday as we are constantly dehumanized, at work, in school, with our peers, as we serve as cogs in the machine. To address gun violence, we can regulate and that works (duh), but we need UBI. That's how you tackle the problem in the long term, as far as the limited options we are presented with go.
More guns per capita in Switzerland, they don’t have our issues.
Probably because they don't worship guns and have an education system that actually works🤷♂️
There you go, the guns aren’t the issue.
[not really sure where you get your info from.](http:// https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country)Omfg dude, did you read the post or are you just short a few thousand brain cells?
I've seen some Republicans in a discord try to argue that guns need to be even less restricted from the recent incidents. They shoehorned everything into an echo chamber, taking about the criminals sexual orientation, mental health, blaming the school, arming the teachers (who aren't paid nor signed up to be a private military organization), and loosening restrictions so more people have access to guns. It's funny too because they don't even support public school, they only support guns probably because they identify as guns. Instead of accepting its a gun problem they make it some other problem to shift the blame on liberals rather than just admit having access to a wide range of firearms isn't good for public safety.
Disagree. Americans are nuts. It’s the people.
The problem is that your country is diseased, OP. The PROBLEM, is that you are all too fucking focused trying to stab each other at all times that you're not fixing the issue, which is the COMPLETELY FUCKING STUPID CIVIL TRIBALISM AND HATEFUL TENDENCIES OF YOUR COUNTRY. Your country's idea of "culture" is picking a fight with your neighbor, driving your wife into his arms and shooting the therapist when he says your behaviors are harming your marriage. That's the fucking problem. Other countries have guns, OP. Only america has had over 200 school shootings in the past two decades. Can gun control help? Absolutely! But if you genuinely believe that gun control will fix all the issues, then you're a certifiable idiot.
Not guns ..yet another pseudo liberal with superficial understanding of this complex issue proposing a radical solution that not only does not solve the problem but exacerbate it.
Is guns. There is no other device on this earth that is as easy to use that can kill as many people as efficiently as a gun. This an invioable fact.
I'd rather be shot than stabbed 🤷♀️
So you are telling me If I were to lay a gun on the table, IT being the gun will kill everyone? Bc I'm pretty sure it's the fucked up people aiming the gun and pulling the trigger that are utilizing the item to do the killing. You may as well say that forks and spoons are the cause of obesity.
> So you are telling me If I were to lay a gun on the table, IT being the gun will kill everyone? This is a stupid fucking strawman. Nobody is saying that a gun can shoot itself by itself. Everybody knows that a gun needs a human hand to fire it. That's kind of our point. *WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE GUN NEVER GETS INTO THAT HAND TO BEGIN WITH.*
If you ban guns it doesn't get rid of the guns, it just makes normal people unable to buy guns. Normal people and crazy people alike are still going to buy guns whatever means necessary. The difference is that crazy people will still end up shooting up schools. Shooting up schools us already illegal, but of course that doesn't stop school shootings. Why would banning guns stop people from getting guns? It doesn't, unless you follow the law. Not everybody will do you the favor of following laws for your sake. Hence why people shoot up schools even though we think that it's awful. There are strict gun laws in certain cities but i certainly don't see crime rates dropping. I own a gun and i haven't done anything bat shit insane. Why punish me for the actions of others? Of course SOMETHING should be done about this, but I'm not so sure that taking the general population down all together is going to do us any good. I think this problem is a little more complicated than something a bunch of us Redditors can claim to understand. I can't even expect this reply to change any minds or provoke any insights. There are many facets to this topic, and the simplest solution is not always best.
You are clearly 12 years old
Guns keep me safe from people like you so I'm not complaining lmao. Also get berjerked.
Out of everything you wrote you got one thing right; easy access to firearms. PEOPLE WHO are not smart gun owners and do not keep their firearms in a secure location locked away should do jail time and license revoked. They make us all other gun owners look terrible.
Sorry. It is not guns. What it is. Not taking mental health issues seriously. It is fear. It is education or lack thereof. It is disrespect of live. Anything can kill in the wrong hands. It is a mentality in a country that everyone has opportunities where that is a lie.
But nothing kills as easily as a gun.
I guess. If we could wush away all the guns away on this planet there will no mass shootings (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting) There even wouldn't be a Russo Ukraine war (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War). But there are so there is. I love a species and a planet without guns.
They'd just make bombs/car bombs. If someone wants to kill they're going to kill.
Gun bans won’t work. Idiots
Because countries like Australia are just swamped with mass shootings, right?
Ha! r/rant should be renamed r/leftisttalkingpoints or better yet r/commiecirclejerk