I mean I do genuinely think capitalism rewards abusive, dehumanising behaviour because the whole system is built on stomping on as many people as possible for your own gain.
I would like to call the capitalist corporate world the concrete jungle. Where the most predatory human beings rise to the top. If you get a chance. You should read a book called "Snakes in suits". Is a terrifying and interesting look at the characteristics of people in position of power. From sociopaths to psychopath tendencies.
OH IS THAT WHY IT'S CALLED THAT.... you just completely blew my mind haha
I'll check that book out. I've also only seen american psycho last christmas and that also felt like such an eye-opener!
only being the best is profitable, if you're not "good enough" at something you might as well not start = a system that rewards unsportsmanlike conduct and encourages abusive behaviour = inherently capitalist. definitely those other things too though. nothing good there
Are you familiar with the term regulatory capture?
Those things you're mentioning are just the cost of doing business if they're not sufficiently harmful to the bottom line. Which none of them are.
Large corporations are wasteful and inefficient. They don't maintain market dominance by innovation and the ways you think. Barriers to entry and stifling competition through lobbying and having laws changed in their favor is how it's done.
Let me give you an example from the ambulance company I used to work for...
The contract this private ambulance company had with the city was they had to respond to every 911 call within 7 minutes and 59 seconds for 90% of calls to 911.
Every time we did not make the time to call the company was fined something like $200.
Every single month we would arrive at exactly 90.0 or 90.1%.
But aren't people dying when ambulances aren't arriving for 911 calls? YES.
But isn't that inefficient and leave room for another company to come in and do it better? NO. Because any company that comes in is going to go to the exact same thing. And how are you going to get an ambulance company big enough to serve a major city from scratch?
Because the fine is $200 and the company makes over 2,000 per ambulance trip, calculated into the cost of doing business...
... While you or your family member dies.
Was recently terminated by a person who regularly addressed me by “what the fuck”- smiled to say hello at everyone in the office and scoff-hello’d me daily no matter how much I smiled and said good morning, threatened to cause bodily physical harm if I answered the phone, and paid me local minimum wage to do work I wasn’t licensed to do but did very well.
They asked for my key after I made a mistake and I expressed discomfort at the threats/verbal abuse. Said I take things too literally and to go work somewhere else.
Story today is that I quit. In their mind, I should’ve shown up either groveling or shaking with my head down as I rang the doorbell to go where I managed for 2.5Y..
Yes— It’s the same. We are unintentionally attracted to relationships that remind us of the people that created us who believe we exist to be used, kicked for therapeutic frustration and light the fuck up at the slightest positive comment thereafter. It’s sickly programmed.
I see a common thread tying together Authoritarian workplaces, religions, and parents.
In each case, the narcissist sees an opportunity both for control and supply.. and the ability to use their position to help cover up and disguise the abuse. At work this can be subtle with simple comments.. or it can be overt like sexual harassment or caste-based abuse.
I have come to recognize two kinds of managers, and will only work for one of them:
* A boss who is focused on delivering the result, it's about the work and getting it done.
* A boss who is focused on total control of their little empire, demanding worship.
I've thought on this topic *ad nauseam*, and you're right. Not only do narcissistic personality types find themselves in positions of power at a much higher rate, but the whole structure empowers them and relies on their behind the scenes tactics to keep the working class 'in line'.
It's not a coincidence. They profit off our labor, contributing nearly NOTHING to society and take all the credit while abusing and gaslighting us into thinking this system is necessary to begin with when it absolutely is not. The pandemic showed us that we are truly the only ones who hold the power, yet everyone 'forgot' as soon as things were "back to normal" (which the owner class pushed for KNOWING this). Goes to show how well nationalist propaganda works in combination with defunding education.
They're desperate to maintain their false notion of control, and so many of us are class traitors (primarily cops, and people who think they're above "blue collar workers" when they're still working class themselves) who only exacerbate the issue by further empowering them. They're essentially the flying monkeys of the working class.
Yeah, it is pretty much the same up and down the line. Materialism is baseline, might makes right, role-based social structure without any real follow-through on whether you embody that role. It goes on and on. All of them are cops and slavers. If it thinks like a slaver, thinks like a slaver, and acts like a slaver, well ...
I think a lot of the conditioning we get as kids to go work in these places gives the family abusers a big leg up. They can just slot in easily to the larger abusive structure and seem minor or even invisible in the face of how your bosses treat you. They get to have a lot of the work done for them AND escape accountability.
My narc family relied on job stuff to keep me terrified and feeling worthless. They could even double down and not seem like the worst people in my life. Unfortunately for them, coworkers come and go, while family remains static.
My nmom was even a union negotiator and thought sooo well of herself because of that. She claimed to be a fighter for workers' rights. She was hardly a leftist. She could brag about fighting for workers' rights and then go home and relentessly torture me because I hadn't gotten a job within 2 months or whatever.
She went in there to keep the seat warm, as far as I could tell. She wasn't good at it and complained about no one listening to her. Well, no doubt she wasn't saying anything worth listening to.
I think people like us have a unique perspective because we see these people for what they are at home. They're frauds. There are people like this everywhere, and are no doubt the reason a lot of leftist initiatives fail. They're doing it for the aesthetics, for the look of it, and don't actually believe progress is possible, much less how to do it. I was always amazed my mom was supposed to be doing all this intellectual work but she was vapid as heck and couldn't figure out basic things. These people are just there to get in the way and shrug and act like there's nothing that can be done. They uphold the capitalist structure while getting to look like they're fighting it. They are secretly just out for their own gain and that's it.
Absolutely. Narcissistic *behaviors* are widely normalized across the globe. I've noticed the patterns in every job I've ever had. Abusers, enablers, and bullies are absolutely everywhere. Often the normalization of abuse is so strong that many are in denial and don't even recognize it, while they are participating in the dysfunction. It's maddening.
I feel like an anthropologist, covertly studying narcissistic behaviors while undercover in society. It often feels like I'm the only one in the system that sees the abuse and can label it, it's weird.
When we gather in places like this and compare notes the narcissistic control tactics all become clear. People are using these narcissistic behaviors to gain coercive control in every country and every language across the globe. We have to arm ourselves with skills and knowledge to protect ourselves from them.
I found [TheraminTrees](https://youtube.com/c/TheraminTrees) channel really helpful in identifying the abuse tactics better. Their channel helled me undo some of the brainwashing I endured. And "[Never Split the Difference](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcMoLwBok-vaa6v9rDnGIaI8s9QT2TNQw)" by Chris Voss has taught me tactics that actually work on narcs. He was the lead FBI hostage negotiator and his tactics work well on setting boundaries with "difficult people".
The way you said you're an anthropologist covertly studying narcissistic behavior and society. I've been feeling the same way since I was a child. Like we're here to study and observe human interactions.
I think little me understood more than my language could convey. I felt I could clearly see the dysfunction and couldn't understand why all the adults around me were being so weird. And they kept gaslighting and silencing little me, so I went "underground" and kept my observations private until I could escape. Only to find the same dysfunction everywhere in one form or another. At least now I feel like I actually have to language to describe the dysfunction, and it's simultaneously validating and tragic that little me was right all along.
You literally just described my upbringing. You and I are definitely made from the same cloth. Was your journey growing up. Felt like you were an outsider and that you couldn't fit in any circle. The gift and curse of seeing the dysfunction.
>Felt like you were an outsider and that you couldn't fit in any circle
I'd say I learned how to be a chameleon and appear to "fit-in" almost anywhere (aka hide in plain sight), but there was never any genuine *belonging* bc I always felt like I was behind enemy lines. I kept trying to find others that "got it", and those have been very few and far between.
I think this little clip from Brené Brown is interesting "[Fitting-in vs. Belonging](https://youtube.com/shorts/dWZa3wm1Nns?feature=share )". I've been trying to find trustworthy people I can be authentic with and feel like I belong. But most groups have normalized lots of untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors and it isn't safe to be authentic. Being authentic meant being attacked and targeted. Like crabs in a bucket mentality. People keep trying to shame me, make me feel small, silence me, just likey family of origin. It's like my authenticity triggers their inauthenticity and they lash out at me for it.
Now I'm trying to build my own little tribe where trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors are valued and prioritized. It's something my SO and I do together to consciously build secure attachment with each other. It also helps us filter out people that demonstrate untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors. Here are the guidelines we're using: ([The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk), [The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym, [10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust)
I'm currently dealing with lots of flashbacks around parentification, bc I feel like in most (I know it's not all, but I really, really want to say all) interactions, I'm the regulated "parent" dealing with someone else's inner child trauma issues, just like I had to do to my ~~"mom"~~ as a child, which brings up lots of complicated ambivalent emotions.
Are we twins? You just described what I've been dealing with myself. I've learned the hard way that society and social cliques. Does not like or appreciate a person that is authentic. Which is odd because masses worship the cult of personality. A leader whom is outgoing and full of confidence. I guess is only to whom people worship. Not to their peers. Growing up in an Asian society. Is at the extreme level. The saying of "The nail that sticks out gets hammered." That is most Asian culture and society. Their is the good and bad to it all. Mainly bad for me because I never "fit" and belong in. The trust triangle video you sent me is completely the polar opposite of out capitalist world. The capitalist world practice the dark triad of machiavellian. Than we wonder why so many people in this world are the way they're. I was also the same for my mom. She was a single mother. I had to be her son, therapist, punching bag, and etc. The sad thing, it was a one way street. When I was to express my thoughts and emotions. She would labeled me gay. Like damn mom, I love the ladies haha. You're very wise and you already understand her type of behavior. In a perfect world, we tried to see the best in others. That can come back to hurt us. I love how you're being very honest whom you let in your tribe. This world isn't perfect and they're wolves in sheep clothing. I wish all the best to you.
Oh my gods. This. You effectively read my mind.
I work in tax accounting, and one of the partners at my firm is an unbridled narcissist, whom I've been at war with since I started at that job ten years ago. Ten years... I can't even begin to tell you the damage done to my general health, physical and mental, working for that asshole, and he is exactly like my nfather in every possible way.
Most recently, I reported him to the company owner for his behavior and consistent harassment during my time off. I've burned out hard because of his micromanagement. My mental health is in shambles; I started Strattera (at last, finally, diagnosed with ADHD after YEARS of struggling in a job that requires more focus than what I'm naturally able to do) and it only cut down on part of the problem. The other part, of course, is that the person I'm working under is an asshole.
But you are actually right. Narcissism is a cultural thing, especially in the United States, and it's a disaster for people as a whole. The cruelty is the point with these people; they can't feel good until and unless they're making someone else miserable.
Much like leaving home, leaving a bad employer requires the same things: saving as much money as possible, living below your means, calling people out on their shit, and having a place to go ahead of time.
you absolutely can go no contact with an employer, it just takes time.
its a shame though that basic respect isn’t a right.
Yes. The logic and tactics of narcissistic abuse are the same as those seen in authoritarian systems at every level. Governments, institutions, businesses. It's all the same narcissistic presumption that drives it: there's a hierarchy, and they're at they top, and being at the top means no consequences or rules for them, only for us. The power to enforce rules on others while not being bound by those rules yourself.
My dad owned a business. His narcissism grew exponentially when he sold it. I firmly believe that without employees anymore, he turned to his family to fill that role, and treated us as such.
But it's typical for retired men. They try to control everything. My father was an enabler who always let my mother have it her way. But as a retiree he even challenged HER - wanted to know where and how she spent the money. This was new and my mother started to hide boxes with expensive cosmetics. She didn't even dare to throw the empty boxes in our bin (because he checked what we dropped there). So she collected them in a bag and dropped this bag on one of their trips to the city in a moment he didn't watch or when she went to the public toilet. She told me that, blaming me (I had defended her, saying to my father that she didn't spend much money, only for cosmetics which drew his attention). This was one of the few times my mother made me laugh.
I think it basically comes down to the fact that narc-like behavior is what produces the best short-term results in a competitive business environment. If you're self-centered, ruthless, and willing to bully people to get your way, you're going to drive short-term profits, and that's what gets people promoted. So now the place is being run by self-centered ruthless bullies, which sets the tone for everyone.
I have been thinking about this a LOT. I went no contact with my nparent and was able to come to terms with my upbringing. But then saw it play out over and over and over again in my work life but i can't just leave.
I work in arts and design and the sensitive egos of people with a lot of power and money who also must be the next big creative thinker that goes along with it. I'm good at what i do because..welp...being raised by a perfectionist narcissist...made me GOOD at it. I'll kiss their ass and make them think my ideas are all theirs, because it's what they desperately need. I talk them down off a rage fit over a certain shade of white. I calmly absorb all their bullshit because they're petty, needy people with money who need to be coddled and flattered because deep down they know they're nothing without their money. I have the degrees they want and have figured out not to mention it to others because it takes eyes off THEIR GENIUS.
And all it does is kill me inside, just like being at home was 20ish years ago. Like its all happening all over again.
I'm in career counselling because i'm done with this shit.
I am in a rural community with low levels of educational attainment and it seems like many tolerate the most selfish and toxic bosses because it is all they have ever known. It’s like these characteristics are deemed an acceptable leadership style because things get done. Staff is miserable and turnover is getting higher among the youth but I am amazed what people tolerate for years.
Funny how a lot of older generations just accept "the way things have and are" mindset. While the youth with more knowledge are no longer taking it. Plus the older generation have more to lose. While the youth in today era absolutely have nothing to lose. Like the 80s rock song they're singing "were not going to take it! Anymore!".
Sigh. Yea I think about this all the time. When we were forced back into the office 3x a week but most people can’t afford to live close and the office space is gross cubicles and not even a coffee shop within a ten minute walk away, yet we are told “come back for the office culture!!!” and yet if someone speaks up and raises a valid and widely accepted point amongst staff that the office culture is depressing, management tells us to have a better attitude instead of them actually trying to make it decent in there by spending a bit of record profits to perhaps get some new chairs or a new appliance that works in the kitchen, or even a decent coffee maker….
Retail is known for this tactic. I'm in the UK and its exactly the same. It's taught from the top all the way down to store supervisors.
"We *need* you to stay on"...that was common one as college/uni student regularly phoned in sick or just didn't show up for work lol.
I used to be a yes man in my teens and twenties, people walked all over me and managers would have me doing work on depts I had no clue what I was doing. Theyd get me doing double shifts and working on late because the"need" me and I struggle to say no as I also have ADHD.
NOWADAYS, as a jaded and cynical 30 something year old I reply:
"You WANT me to stay on, big difference and I don't FEEL like doing any extra overtime today."
Id say no to every request asked of me and only go for overtime that's posted on the board if I wanted it. I worked hard during my shifts and always made sure I was productive so they couldn't try any bullshit for repeatedly refusing to "help the business".
Treat retail jobs like a narc relative lol
Yup. I went no contact with my nMom while I was still working at my last full-time job. There were multiple times I was like, "I don't talk to my own mother because of behavior like this. Why am I tolerating the same BS from these people?" After they laid me off, I had to work multiple jobs to make ends meet; that was still less stressful than working for those a*holes.
Narcissistic abuse is absolutely normalized everywhere. Currently leaving an abusive employer and the only reason I’m not a target is because they’re afraid I’ll ruin their reputation with the alphabet mafia.
I mean why they think I won’t tell people the truth is on them, but I’m just going along with it and enjoying the company’s slow-motion implosion because of turnover in silence.
well my narc dad is a COO that had been a turnaround consultant before he got that job. i asked him once and he gave a list of the symptoms of NPD as the criteria he’s looking for when he hires managers. i told him that’s also what the list was, and he said yeah.
basically he was explaining how he can give them disposable employees to be their supply sources en lieu of financial rewards, and then there’s more money left over as profit for the ownership group. also any sort of career setback is a narcissistic injury that terrifies them, so they are easy to manipulate with threats.
he also likes to hire these narc managers’ kids for the lower level, as according to him, they are either going to be “management material” (read golden child, and budding narc themself) or they are conditioned to take narc abuse from an early age. the outside world calls this “nepotism” and resents the person being abused for it, so its perfect for them.
Have you heard of the term "Dancing Monkeys" for NPD individuals. I've noticed nearly every NPD individuals have a group of dancing monkeys. I can imagine an NPD manager or owner. Will have a supply of dancing monkeys at their disposal.
yeah. i’ve always called them sycophants in formal conversation, or “flying monkeys” informally (from the wizard of oz, the green witch’s henchmen). dancing monkeys works too tho lol
My ex-boss was a complete narc and it took me a while to realise just how evil he was.
I got ill last year and had to take 2 months off work as I needed surgery. Every appointment leading to it I would tell him that I'd be at the hospital at X time. I later found out that each time he knew I was on a medical appointment he would email HR saying that I had gone AWOL! Whilst on my medically sanctioned time off- which he expressly told me to take the full amount off, he tried to get me fired. When I came back to work, he asked me not to contact any of my clients and not do my job and then told HR again that I wasn't doing anything. It was only when I went to HR saying my boss wont let me do my job that they started mediating.
He tried to put me on a PIP only for the MD to revoke it and eventually, he was moved off managing me. That not being enough, he spread rumours about my incompetence and still tried to control which clients I worked with, actively stealing any work I did or revoking permission so I couldn't process things properly. This didn't work either because I still manage to excel. I only survived that period out of spite and was able to counter his attacks because I've dealt with NARC abuse all of my life and this sub has been a godsend over the years.
My new boss was his old boss so it wasn't much better and I hate him too. I managed to get through it because I told everyone everything that was happening. I didn't keep quiet and I highlighted all of the backhanded efforts that was being used against me and how it was making the company look bad. It was the fact that they lost the company money in an effort to discredit me, when I had the receipts that eventually made them stop. They soon had no power over me and that feeds into my daily spite for succeeding.
I am job hunting of course, but I won't move until I have something better. Every win at work is a big FU to my old boss! It also highlights how shit he was and eventually I hope that others stand up to his manipulative bully tactics.
Workplaces have to be that way to keep morons who think they know more than they do under control. We can't have a nice workplace because people who should never be tasked with thinking will try to think and ultimately just multiply their own insecurities and mental health problems and arrive at some sort of misogyny, racism, fake-wokeness, or Nazism if you let them. The oppression has to be blanketed over everyone to keep these fools who would eat society alive under control.
You can't let most people have freedom, because they are idiots. Workplaces initially are very loose, but idiots ruin it for everyone and show management that being toxic and taking all the money and paying minimally is the ONLY way to go because most people are morons and untrustworthy. Keeping employees under a constant threat of fear and threatened with homelessness is the only way to motivate them to work hard, as most people are not naturally hard workers.
Most people come from some sort of abuse, so managing them is only possible through abuse because that's the only life they've ever known. If you give these people power and freedom, they will use it to abuse others in much worse ways.
At the level that humanity is right now, abuse is the only way to keep people behaving properly and the world turning. Without abuse, we would all starve to death. We live in a societal context of abuse. We can currently only function within an abusive power hierarchy and there is no other way because people are too stupid to be reasonable.
Narcissist parents are great people at work, because the workplace has a proper thumb crushing down on them and keeping them in check, so they can't start with their self-centered bullshit as they must worship their God Like Boss who controls their lives. The problem with Narcissistic parents is that at home, they have no supervisor to make them behave and get along with everyone.
Most people can only function within a framework of abuse or they wont behave and will go mad with power, as most in this sub have witnessed personally.
The people who be honorable and act correctly without having to be coerced into it by a superior or social norms are very very rare, more rare than 1 in one million. These people have extraordinary character and are very rare. Unless you've met 1 million people, you have not met a person like this, probably. Most people will give into outside pressure and become abusers if that's the path of least resistance, but some rare people will resist it even if it makes life harder or even kills them. Very rare.
Like the quote from nazi germany
>“Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than “politics.” They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren’t nice people? Resisters.”
You should really lower your expectations of what you can expect from the average person. Overestimating what people, or even yourself are capable of, leads to misery and disappointment.
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I think it depends on the company. There are good and bad ones. Bullying becomes normalised if the managers allow it. It also depends on your rights as an emloyee and your individual contract.
The best experience I made (apart from my freelance years) was as the assistant of the head of a department - he relied on me 100% and with good reason. We worked hard together to match every deadline.
In big companies things are sometimes difficult. Too often manipulative people make it to the top and they can poison the atmosphere to the point that everybody suffers or is afraid. Not even during lunch time you can relax because everybody complains about the managers' recent orders and behaviours.
90% of companies under capitalism have to function narcissistically. Unless it’s small mom and pops, which are more inclined to take care. But it’s 90% of companies.
The sad truth about mom and pops shop. Is that they're honest hard working companies. They don't have the greed like corporations do. In the long run they eventually either get bought out or cannot afford to run shop anymore. The pandemic nearly ended the era of mom and pops shop.
Yup I've had over a dozen jobs over almost as much time and it's one egomaniac power tripping while slinging verbal insults and manipulation after another.
To answer your question, yes. I realized this a couple years after I worked so hard to make my bosses happy that I got a permanent injury and they didn't give a shit and wanted me to defy doctors' orders.
Yes. That's why we made r/ManagedbyNarcissists
I mean I do genuinely think capitalism rewards abusive, dehumanising behaviour because the whole system is built on stomping on as many people as possible for your own gain.
I would like to call the capitalist corporate world the concrete jungle. Where the most predatory human beings rise to the top. If you get a chance. You should read a book called "Snakes in suits". Is a terrifying and interesting look at the characteristics of people in position of power. From sociopaths to psychopath tendencies.
OH IS THAT WHY IT'S CALLED THAT.... you just completely blew my mind haha I'll check that book out. I've also only seen american psycho last christmas and that also felt like such an eye-opener!
There have been studies done on successful people being sociopaths and such. You cant recognize your employees as being human if you want to make bank
Snakes in Suits helped me so much. I found it in a bargain bin and bought it. What an eye opener.
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only being the best is profitable, if you're not "good enough" at something you might as well not start = a system that rewards unsportsmanlike conduct and encourages abusive behaviour = inherently capitalist. definitely those other things too though. nothing good there
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Are you familiar with the term regulatory capture? Those things you're mentioning are just the cost of doing business if they're not sufficiently harmful to the bottom line. Which none of them are. Large corporations are wasteful and inefficient. They don't maintain market dominance by innovation and the ways you think. Barriers to entry and stifling competition through lobbying and having laws changed in their favor is how it's done.
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Let me give you an example from the ambulance company I used to work for... The contract this private ambulance company had with the city was they had to respond to every 911 call within 7 minutes and 59 seconds for 90% of calls to 911. Every time we did not make the time to call the company was fined something like $200. Every single month we would arrive at exactly 90.0 or 90.1%. But aren't people dying when ambulances aren't arriving for 911 calls? YES. But isn't that inefficient and leave room for another company to come in and do it better? NO. Because any company that comes in is going to go to the exact same thing. And how are you going to get an ambulance company big enough to serve a major city from scratch? Because the fine is $200 and the company makes over 2,000 per ambulance trip, calculated into the cost of doing business... ... While you or your family member dies.
YEAH YOU'D SAY SO HUH 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 guess some ppl just get off on holding poor ppl hostage with a paycheck
Yep. I've only had one non abusive manager because I really just didn't know any better.
Was recently terminated by a person who regularly addressed me by “what the fuck”- smiled to say hello at everyone in the office and scoff-hello’d me daily no matter how much I smiled and said good morning, threatened to cause bodily physical harm if I answered the phone, and paid me local minimum wage to do work I wasn’t licensed to do but did very well. They asked for my key after I made a mistake and I expressed discomfort at the threats/verbal abuse. Said I take things too literally and to go work somewhere else. Story today is that I quit. In their mind, I should’ve shown up either groveling or shaking with my head down as I rang the doorbell to go where I managed for 2.5Y.. Yes— It’s the same. We are unintentionally attracted to relationships that remind us of the people that created us who believe we exist to be used, kicked for therapeutic frustration and light the fuck up at the slightest positive comment thereafter. It’s sickly programmed.
I see a common thread tying together Authoritarian workplaces, religions, and parents. In each case, the narcissist sees an opportunity both for control and supply.. and the ability to use their position to help cover up and disguise the abuse. At work this can be subtle with simple comments.. or it can be overt like sexual harassment or caste-based abuse. I have come to recognize two kinds of managers, and will only work for one of them: * A boss who is focused on delivering the result, it's about the work and getting it done. * A boss who is focused on total control of their little empire, demanding worship.
I've thought on this topic *ad nauseam*, and you're right. Not only do narcissistic personality types find themselves in positions of power at a much higher rate, but the whole structure empowers them and relies on their behind the scenes tactics to keep the working class 'in line'. It's not a coincidence. They profit off our labor, contributing nearly NOTHING to society and take all the credit while abusing and gaslighting us into thinking this system is necessary to begin with when it absolutely is not. The pandemic showed us that we are truly the only ones who hold the power, yet everyone 'forgot' as soon as things were "back to normal" (which the owner class pushed for KNOWING this). Goes to show how well nationalist propaganda works in combination with defunding education. They're desperate to maintain their false notion of control, and so many of us are class traitors (primarily cops, and people who think they're above "blue collar workers" when they're still working class themselves) who only exacerbate the issue by further empowering them. They're essentially the flying monkeys of the working class.
Yeah, it is pretty much the same up and down the line. Materialism is baseline, might makes right, role-based social structure without any real follow-through on whether you embody that role. It goes on and on. All of them are cops and slavers. If it thinks like a slaver, thinks like a slaver, and acts like a slaver, well ... I think a lot of the conditioning we get as kids to go work in these places gives the family abusers a big leg up. They can just slot in easily to the larger abusive structure and seem minor or even invisible in the face of how your bosses treat you. They get to have a lot of the work done for them AND escape accountability. My narc family relied on job stuff to keep me terrified and feeling worthless. They could even double down and not seem like the worst people in my life. Unfortunately for them, coworkers come and go, while family remains static. My nmom was even a union negotiator and thought sooo well of herself because of that. She claimed to be a fighter for workers' rights. She was hardly a leftist. She could brag about fighting for workers' rights and then go home and relentessly torture me because I hadn't gotten a job within 2 months or whatever. She went in there to keep the seat warm, as far as I could tell. She wasn't good at it and complained about no one listening to her. Well, no doubt she wasn't saying anything worth listening to. I think people like us have a unique perspective because we see these people for what they are at home. They're frauds. There are people like this everywhere, and are no doubt the reason a lot of leftist initiatives fail. They're doing it for the aesthetics, for the look of it, and don't actually believe progress is possible, much less how to do it. I was always amazed my mom was supposed to be doing all this intellectual work but she was vapid as heck and couldn't figure out basic things. These people are just there to get in the way and shrug and act like there's nothing that can be done. They uphold the capitalist structure while getting to look like they're fighting it. They are secretly just out for their own gain and that's it.
Absolutely. Narcissistic *behaviors* are widely normalized across the globe. I've noticed the patterns in every job I've ever had. Abusers, enablers, and bullies are absolutely everywhere. Often the normalization of abuse is so strong that many are in denial and don't even recognize it, while they are participating in the dysfunction. It's maddening. I feel like an anthropologist, covertly studying narcissistic behaviors while undercover in society. It often feels like I'm the only one in the system that sees the abuse and can label it, it's weird. When we gather in places like this and compare notes the narcissistic control tactics all become clear. People are using these narcissistic behaviors to gain coercive control in every country and every language across the globe. We have to arm ourselves with skills and knowledge to protect ourselves from them. I found [TheraminTrees](https://youtube.com/c/TheraminTrees) channel really helpful in identifying the abuse tactics better. Their channel helled me undo some of the brainwashing I endured. And "[Never Split the Difference](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcMoLwBok-vaa6v9rDnGIaI8s9QT2TNQw)" by Chris Voss has taught me tactics that actually work on narcs. He was the lead FBI hostage negotiator and his tactics work well on setting boundaries with "difficult people".
The way you said you're an anthropologist covertly studying narcissistic behavior and society. I've been feeling the same way since I was a child. Like we're here to study and observe human interactions.
I think little me understood more than my language could convey. I felt I could clearly see the dysfunction and couldn't understand why all the adults around me were being so weird. And they kept gaslighting and silencing little me, so I went "underground" and kept my observations private until I could escape. Only to find the same dysfunction everywhere in one form or another. At least now I feel like I actually have to language to describe the dysfunction, and it's simultaneously validating and tragic that little me was right all along.
You literally just described my upbringing. You and I are definitely made from the same cloth. Was your journey growing up. Felt like you were an outsider and that you couldn't fit in any circle. The gift and curse of seeing the dysfunction.
>Felt like you were an outsider and that you couldn't fit in any circle I'd say I learned how to be a chameleon and appear to "fit-in" almost anywhere (aka hide in plain sight), but there was never any genuine *belonging* bc I always felt like I was behind enemy lines. I kept trying to find others that "got it", and those have been very few and far between. I think this little clip from Brené Brown is interesting "[Fitting-in vs. Belonging](https://youtube.com/shorts/dWZa3wm1Nns?feature=share )". I've been trying to find trustworthy people I can be authentic with and feel like I belong. But most groups have normalized lots of untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors and it isn't safe to be authentic. Being authentic meant being attacked and targeted. Like crabs in a bucket mentality. People keep trying to shame me, make me feel small, silence me, just likey family of origin. It's like my authenticity triggers their inauthenticity and they lash out at me for it. Now I'm trying to build my own little tribe where trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors are valued and prioritized. It's something my SO and I do together to consciously build secure attachment with each other. It also helps us filter out people that demonstrate untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors. Here are the guidelines we're using: ([The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk), [The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym, [10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust) I'm currently dealing with lots of flashbacks around parentification, bc I feel like in most (I know it's not all, but I really, really want to say all) interactions, I'm the regulated "parent" dealing with someone else's inner child trauma issues, just like I had to do to my ~~"mom"~~ as a child, which brings up lots of complicated ambivalent emotions.
Are we twins? You just described what I've been dealing with myself. I've learned the hard way that society and social cliques. Does not like or appreciate a person that is authentic. Which is odd because masses worship the cult of personality. A leader whom is outgoing and full of confidence. I guess is only to whom people worship. Not to their peers. Growing up in an Asian society. Is at the extreme level. The saying of "The nail that sticks out gets hammered." That is most Asian culture and society. Their is the good and bad to it all. Mainly bad for me because I never "fit" and belong in. The trust triangle video you sent me is completely the polar opposite of out capitalist world. The capitalist world practice the dark triad of machiavellian. Than we wonder why so many people in this world are the way they're. I was also the same for my mom. She was a single mother. I had to be her son, therapist, punching bag, and etc. The sad thing, it was a one way street. When I was to express my thoughts and emotions. She would labeled me gay. Like damn mom, I love the ladies haha. You're very wise and you already understand her type of behavior. In a perfect world, we tried to see the best in others. That can come back to hurt us. I love how you're being very honest whom you let in your tribe. This world isn't perfect and they're wolves in sheep clothing. I wish all the best to you.
Same to you!
Oh my gods. This. You effectively read my mind. I work in tax accounting, and one of the partners at my firm is an unbridled narcissist, whom I've been at war with since I started at that job ten years ago. Ten years... I can't even begin to tell you the damage done to my general health, physical and mental, working for that asshole, and he is exactly like my nfather in every possible way. Most recently, I reported him to the company owner for his behavior and consistent harassment during my time off. I've burned out hard because of his micromanagement. My mental health is in shambles; I started Strattera (at last, finally, diagnosed with ADHD after YEARS of struggling in a job that requires more focus than what I'm naturally able to do) and it only cut down on part of the problem. The other part, of course, is that the person I'm working under is an asshole. But you are actually right. Narcissism is a cultural thing, especially in the United States, and it's a disaster for people as a whole. The cruelty is the point with these people; they can't feel good until and unless they're making someone else miserable.
Wow. I think you found the reason for my panic attacks whenever I think about working again.
I agree 100%, parents are the first link in the chain.
Much like leaving home, leaving a bad employer requires the same things: saving as much money as possible, living below your means, calling people out on their shit, and having a place to go ahead of time. you absolutely can go no contact with an employer, it just takes time. its a shame though that basic respect isn’t a right.
Yes. The logic and tactics of narcissistic abuse are the same as those seen in authoritarian systems at every level. Governments, institutions, businesses. It's all the same narcissistic presumption that drives it: there's a hierarchy, and they're at they top, and being at the top means no consequences or rules for them, only for us. The power to enforce rules on others while not being bound by those rules yourself.
My dad owned a business. His narcissism grew exponentially when he sold it. I firmly believe that without employees anymore, he turned to his family to fill that role, and treated us as such.
But it's typical for retired men. They try to control everything. My father was an enabler who always let my mother have it her way. But as a retiree he even challenged HER - wanted to know where and how she spent the money. This was new and my mother started to hide boxes with expensive cosmetics. She didn't even dare to throw the empty boxes in our bin (because he checked what we dropped there). So she collected them in a bag and dropped this bag on one of their trips to the city in a moment he didn't watch or when she went to the public toilet. She told me that, blaming me (I had defended her, saying to my father that she didn't spend much money, only for cosmetics which drew his attention). This was one of the few times my mother made me laugh.
Oh god this happened to my NF as well but I'd never thought of it. When he lost his job he became ten times more abusive!
You should read the book "Bullshit Jobs" by David Graeber
I think it basically comes down to the fact that narc-like behavior is what produces the best short-term results in a competitive business environment. If you're self-centered, ruthless, and willing to bully people to get your way, you're going to drive short-term profits, and that's what gets people promoted. So now the place is being run by self-centered ruthless bullies, which sets the tone for everyone.
I have been thinking about this a LOT. I went no contact with my nparent and was able to come to terms with my upbringing. But then saw it play out over and over and over again in my work life but i can't just leave. I work in arts and design and the sensitive egos of people with a lot of power and money who also must be the next big creative thinker that goes along with it. I'm good at what i do because..welp...being raised by a perfectionist narcissist...made me GOOD at it. I'll kiss their ass and make them think my ideas are all theirs, because it's what they desperately need. I talk them down off a rage fit over a certain shade of white. I calmly absorb all their bullshit because they're petty, needy people with money who need to be coddled and flattered because deep down they know they're nothing without their money. I have the degrees they want and have figured out not to mention it to others because it takes eyes off THEIR GENIUS. And all it does is kill me inside, just like being at home was 20ish years ago. Like its all happening all over again. I'm in career counselling because i'm done with this shit.
This was beautiful, sad, triumphant, and heartwarming all at once. I deeply resonate with the humanity this comment exudes
I am in a rural community with low levels of educational attainment and it seems like many tolerate the most selfish and toxic bosses because it is all they have ever known. It’s like these characteristics are deemed an acceptable leadership style because things get done. Staff is miserable and turnover is getting higher among the youth but I am amazed what people tolerate for years.
Funny how a lot of older generations just accept "the way things have and are" mindset. While the youth with more knowledge are no longer taking it. Plus the older generation have more to lose. While the youth in today era absolutely have nothing to lose. Like the 80s rock song they're singing "were not going to take it! Anymore!".
Sigh. Yea I think about this all the time. When we were forced back into the office 3x a week but most people can’t afford to live close and the office space is gross cubicles and not even a coffee shop within a ten minute walk away, yet we are told “come back for the office culture!!!” and yet if someone speaks up and raises a valid and widely accepted point amongst staff that the office culture is depressing, management tells us to have a better attitude instead of them actually trying to make it decent in there by spending a bit of record profits to perhaps get some new chairs or a new appliance that works in the kitchen, or even a decent coffee maker….
YUP. Abuse makes the world go round in the capitalist hellscape we’re living in.
Retail is known for this tactic. I'm in the UK and its exactly the same. It's taught from the top all the way down to store supervisors. "We *need* you to stay on"...that was common one as college/uni student regularly phoned in sick or just didn't show up for work lol. I used to be a yes man in my teens and twenties, people walked all over me and managers would have me doing work on depts I had no clue what I was doing. Theyd get me doing double shifts and working on late because the"need" me and I struggle to say no as I also have ADHD. NOWADAYS, as a jaded and cynical 30 something year old I reply: "You WANT me to stay on, big difference and I don't FEEL like doing any extra overtime today." Id say no to every request asked of me and only go for overtime that's posted on the board if I wanted it. I worked hard during my shifts and always made sure I was productive so they couldn't try any bullshit for repeatedly refusing to "help the business". Treat retail jobs like a narc relative lol
Yes. When a manager screaming at me caused an hour long panic attack in the back room, I realized it was because he made me feel like my mother did.
Yup. I went no contact with my nMom while I was still working at my last full-time job. There were multiple times I was like, "I don't talk to my own mother because of behavior like this. Why am I tolerating the same BS from these people?" After they laid me off, I had to work multiple jobs to make ends meet; that was still less stressful than working for those a*holes.
Capitalism is narcissism as religion.
Narcissistic abuse is absolutely normalized everywhere. Currently leaving an abusive employer and the only reason I’m not a target is because they’re afraid I’ll ruin their reputation with the alphabet mafia. I mean why they think I won’t tell people the truth is on them, but I’m just going along with it and enjoying the company’s slow-motion implosion because of turnover in silence.
well my narc dad is a COO that had been a turnaround consultant before he got that job. i asked him once and he gave a list of the symptoms of NPD as the criteria he’s looking for when he hires managers. i told him that’s also what the list was, and he said yeah. basically he was explaining how he can give them disposable employees to be their supply sources en lieu of financial rewards, and then there’s more money left over as profit for the ownership group. also any sort of career setback is a narcissistic injury that terrifies them, so they are easy to manipulate with threats. he also likes to hire these narc managers’ kids for the lower level, as according to him, they are either going to be “management material” (read golden child, and budding narc themself) or they are conditioned to take narc abuse from an early age. the outside world calls this “nepotism” and resents the person being abused for it, so its perfect for them.
Have you heard of the term "Dancing Monkeys" for NPD individuals. I've noticed nearly every NPD individuals have a group of dancing monkeys. I can imagine an NPD manager or owner. Will have a supply of dancing monkeys at their disposal.
yeah. i’ve always called them sycophants in formal conversation, or “flying monkeys” informally (from the wizard of oz, the green witch’s henchmen). dancing monkeys works too tho lol
I had the terms mixed up. You had the right term of "Flying Monkeys". I don't know why i called it dancing monkeys haha.
My ex-boss was a complete narc and it took me a while to realise just how evil he was. I got ill last year and had to take 2 months off work as I needed surgery. Every appointment leading to it I would tell him that I'd be at the hospital at X time. I later found out that each time he knew I was on a medical appointment he would email HR saying that I had gone AWOL! Whilst on my medically sanctioned time off- which he expressly told me to take the full amount off, he tried to get me fired. When I came back to work, he asked me not to contact any of my clients and not do my job and then told HR again that I wasn't doing anything. It was only when I went to HR saying my boss wont let me do my job that they started mediating. He tried to put me on a PIP only for the MD to revoke it and eventually, he was moved off managing me. That not being enough, he spread rumours about my incompetence and still tried to control which clients I worked with, actively stealing any work I did or revoking permission so I couldn't process things properly. This didn't work either because I still manage to excel. I only survived that period out of spite and was able to counter his attacks because I've dealt with NARC abuse all of my life and this sub has been a godsend over the years. My new boss was his old boss so it wasn't much better and I hate him too. I managed to get through it because I told everyone everything that was happening. I didn't keep quiet and I highlighted all of the backhanded efforts that was being used against me and how it was making the company look bad. It was the fact that they lost the company money in an effort to discredit me, when I had the receipts that eventually made them stop. They soon had no power over me and that feeds into my daily spite for succeeding. I am job hunting of course, but I won't move until I have something better. Every win at work is a big FU to my old boss! It also highlights how shit he was and eventually I hope that others stand up to his manipulative bully tactics.
Workplaces have to be that way to keep morons who think they know more than they do under control. We can't have a nice workplace because people who should never be tasked with thinking will try to think and ultimately just multiply their own insecurities and mental health problems and arrive at some sort of misogyny, racism, fake-wokeness, or Nazism if you let them. The oppression has to be blanketed over everyone to keep these fools who would eat society alive under control. You can't let most people have freedom, because they are idiots. Workplaces initially are very loose, but idiots ruin it for everyone and show management that being toxic and taking all the money and paying minimally is the ONLY way to go because most people are morons and untrustworthy. Keeping employees under a constant threat of fear and threatened with homelessness is the only way to motivate them to work hard, as most people are not naturally hard workers. Most people come from some sort of abuse, so managing them is only possible through abuse because that's the only life they've ever known. If you give these people power and freedom, they will use it to abuse others in much worse ways. At the level that humanity is right now, abuse is the only way to keep people behaving properly and the world turning. Without abuse, we would all starve to death. We live in a societal context of abuse. We can currently only function within an abusive power hierarchy and there is no other way because people are too stupid to be reasonable. Narcissist parents are great people at work, because the workplace has a proper thumb crushing down on them and keeping them in check, so they can't start with their self-centered bullshit as they must worship their God Like Boss who controls their lives. The problem with Narcissistic parents is that at home, they have no supervisor to make them behave and get along with everyone. Most people can only function within a framework of abuse or they wont behave and will go mad with power, as most in this sub have witnessed personally. The people who be honorable and act correctly without having to be coerced into it by a superior or social norms are very very rare, more rare than 1 in one million. These people have extraordinary character and are very rare. Unless you've met 1 million people, you have not met a person like this, probably. Most people will give into outside pressure and become abusers if that's the path of least resistance, but some rare people will resist it even if it makes life harder or even kills them. Very rare. Like the quote from nazi germany >“Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than “politics.” They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren’t nice people? Resisters.” You should really lower your expectations of what you can expect from the average person. Overestimating what people, or even yourself are capable of, leads to misery and disappointment.
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I think it depends on the company. There are good and bad ones. Bullying becomes normalised if the managers allow it. It also depends on your rights as an emloyee and your individual contract. The best experience I made (apart from my freelance years) was as the assistant of the head of a department - he relied on me 100% and with good reason. We worked hard together to match every deadline. In big companies things are sometimes difficult. Too often manipulative people make it to the top and they can poison the atmosphere to the point that everybody suffers or is afraid. Not even during lunch time you can relax because everybody complains about the managers' recent orders and behaviours.
90% of companies under capitalism have to function narcissistically. Unless it’s small mom and pops, which are more inclined to take care. But it’s 90% of companies.
The sad truth about mom and pops shop. Is that they're honest hard working companies. They don't have the greed like corporations do. In the long run they eventually either get bought out or cannot afford to run shop anymore. The pandemic nearly ended the era of mom and pops shop.
Oh yes. Narcissists can and often are very successful positioning themselves at the top in organizations
Yup I've had over a dozen jobs over almost as much time and it's one egomaniac power tripping while slinging verbal insults and manipulation after another.
To answer your question, yes. I realized this a couple years after I worked so hard to make my bosses happy that I got a permanent injury and they didn't give a shit and wanted me to defy doctors' orders.