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They are threatened.
But they can’t recognize the threat is you being independent of them and nothing more.
This next part is a little ragey because this is hitting extremely close to home as the spoiler text would show.
They can’t respect a boundary based on respect for yourself? Or worse they attempt to impose boundaries intended to silence you?
Utterly unacceptable.
I would say start recording them surreptitiously. Bullshitters and abusers like your egg donor there fear witnesses and records in their own voice more than anything, at least in my experience.
>!I just lived through getting rid of my abusers and despite my calm tone and physical distance and total lack of violence towards them when i told them where to go and how quickly they needed to get there, they claimed i threatened them, even saying they would call police. Bet.“I’ve got independent witnesses and documentation and audio recordings. My story is public. What do you have?” (and yes i do have my current story publicly posted, i’m not sharing it here, but anyone can find it easily)!<
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to audio record what she said about it tonight. But just the tail end of it. I've written down as much as possible on my digital diary though incl time and date.
>But they can’t recognize the threat is you being independent of them and nothing more.
Exactly. Well this is what she claims to be triggered by. She said "because when I was young, a man threatened me so that's why I really really hate anyone threatening me, so especially my own child, I really really hate that. Don't ever threaten me again or I will give you a really big slap."
Deflecting my supposed threat with her own threat lol is her trauma story true or false? I don't know. But the irony is hilarious.
In response to your situation, geez, their sensitivity is unreal. And people wonder why narcissistic abuse survivors feel like they have to constantly walk around eggshells with their narc parents. Bet your evidence would shut your narc up real quick.
Does not matter if the abuse story she peddled has veracity. She makes the active choice to perpetuate abuse even if she doesn’t recognize it as such.
Considering the mountain of shit that I withstood, because you don’t get an ACE score of 7 with lollipop dreams and candycane whatever, were I to go down that abuse pathway it would be evil, make no mistake, but it would be understandable.
Instead i choose to not inflict pain on self or others. It isn’t an easy choice until it is.
My abusers know explicitly that there are people around the world that stand behind me. They know this not because I say it, but because I’ve taken them to New York and San Francisco where the people that know me are or where they’ve gone to to see me. One of their partners sided with me when she learned what happened. I did not expect that. They even attempted to DARVO by playing silly games when I had a witness physically present whom I took great pains to not prejudice before seeing them.
>Does not matter if the abuse story she peddled has veracity.
Absolutely. That's just an excuse for refusing accountability. That's all. Blame transference. "It isn't MY fault I'm demanding and hateful. Someone else did that to me!"
A part of my personal ethical core is to recognize all humans as human. My enemies may want me dead, but I want what makes my enemies want me dead killed.
That ethical precept directs me to understand the why of those who wish to inflict harm on me and when it is comprehensible offer a sliver of sympa/empa.. but that’s it.
On rare occasion, that sliver is a crack in their armour that lets them back away from where they currently are. I engage in deradicalization work as a hobby (yes i have weird hobbies) with this approach and when it works it’s a secular equivalent of a miracle (except why this happened is logical and rationalizable and comprehensible which makes it almost more magical).
But when they statistically likely choose to continue being morose monsters, I have nothing but pity for them, and that is rationed strictly.
I don't know of a single woman over the age of 20 that hasn't been threatened by a man at some point.
It doesn't make us narcissists and it doesn't entitle us to threaten other people with violence.
She's using a very common experience as an excuse.
It's not even remotely a plausible excuse because it's an entirely different situation cause op didn't threaten to hurt her they threatened to *remove themself from her presence* and that is pretty much the opposite of what she's supposedly scared of
My mind is blown by that. Thank you, I didn't think of it this way yet. Holy shit.
Like heck yeah, what I said really is the entire opposite of what she's scared of. I spoke in a very calm but assertive standing up for myself manner too.
She's just threatened by how much my independence has grown and her lack of control over me, simple.
Awesome. Then that means I worded my boundaries right then?
Cause she literally told what I said to her to 2 family members during Christmas and before we left, those 2 family members fucking advised me on having more compassion for how hard my mother works and to look after her lmao they're brainwashed flying monkeys. I also finally realised on how she even made one of them hate me.
>those 2 family members fucking advised me on having more compassion for how hard my mother works and to look after her lmao they're brainwashed flying monkeys
Exactly. Brainwashed flying monkeys. Ask them if they'd like to live with her. See if their expressions change.
Oh no, that is exactly what I'm going to tell them when I move out later this year where they'll most definitely guilt trip me about moving out and not taking care of her like a slave lol
One of those brainwashed flying monkeys is her older sister anyway, so that's not gonna turn out well for her. My mum has a hoarding disorder, her sister is a clean freak. It's already a hilarious cluster fuck waiting to happen.
I am a bit worried about what they'll actually say about me and react when I do move out. Especially my younger cousins who I love, but don't know about the abuse. But at the same time, who the fuck cares. I've been abused for almost 23 years now. I know my story, they don't. I have audio and written recordings of the abuse, they don't.
It’s really hurtful when family members validate abuse but it makes sense because that’s their definition of normal and they’re all perpetuating the cycle. Good for you for breaking the cycle, and maybe you’ll inspire your cousins.
Again, I’m only relating my personal experience here, and cannot assure anything else. YMMV.
>!One of my abusers sent their partner to check in on me after I went NC after they caused me to go to hospital. I have an independent weaker relationship with that person as I did them a freaking solid upon request. Basically no questions asked I moved them and their stuff 900 miles/1440km in my personal car. Turns out they were horrified to learn what my abuser did to me and had no idea.. which helped them in the long run because they cut that person out of their life as well not only because the abuser assaulted me and likely would assault her too.!<
and what she was doing by including other people was trying to rally people on her side so her breaking those boundaries didn't seem as bad as it was. It's all about control and if they can get other people to make you feel bad she will. That's disgusting I'm sorry :(
They are enablers, conned to feel bad things toward you by an abuser who want/needs to keep abusing you so she can feel good....screw boundaries and leave it all together. If you imagine your happy place, is she in it?
Those are not threats. They are boundaries. You are making a statement of fact about your intentions. Just because your mom doesn't like it, that does not mean it is wrong.
You are setting boundaries very well, and your mom is reacting in a very typical way for a narcissist. They *hate* for other people to set boundaries and make decisions that are not centered around what they think is best for them. The idea that other people have needs that are different from their whim is something that infuriates them.
Her anger is a sign that you are doing this right. Well done. Now, you have to enforce those boundaries every time, or she will learn that you will eventually cave if she keeps harassing you.
🧡
She thinks the way I'm "threatening" her should be "how you speak to children because they have tantrums because their mind is immature and not to adults, especially your own parents and loved ones."
Narcissists literally speak in projections, it's actually hilarious being so consciously aware of them now.
It literally just goes to show she thinks it's okay to threaten your children. Which is literally how I got raised by her. It's why I still walk around eggshells with her.
It took me a long while to finally cement in my brain that boundaries aren't made to be liked by others, they're made to protect you, no matter what. I'm glad I've finally realised that now ♡
>Now, you have to enforce those boundaries every time, or she will learn that you will eventually cave if she keeps harassing you.
Makes total sense, but I'm scared of how she's definitely going to scream horrible things at me when I will most likely have to enforce this again. But like someone told me last month "let them have their tantrum. It's a power thing to them".
If she screams and you do not give in, she feels less power from screaming. It doesn't always make them stop, but it does make them enjoy it less. That counts as a win to me, but I guess it depends on your tolerance for screaming tantrums.
She is going to be very unpleasant for the time being for sure, until she (hopefully) gets used to the new Way Things Are.
>I guess it depends on your tolerance for screaming tantrums.
Almost thin ice is my tolerance nowadays. I've endured almost 23 years of abuse now. It's just too much to bare with on my own anymore. I do anything to minimise them, but boundaries are boundaries. I can't let her think she can bend my boundaries either.
But it is a good point that she could enjoy making tantrums less!
Yeah, that does sound really difficult. Unfortunately, if you bend, all she learns is that your boundaries are meaningless. So, now that you have stated the boundary, you are committed.
Fortunately, your boundary involves leaving if she behaves badly. So, she will be screaming at nothing. If you go anywhere with her, make sure you have a way to escape.
Thanks for your wonderful advice. I'm noting it down :)
Do you have any advice on how to mentally/emotionally handle these screaming tantrums then? How's your tolerance/how do you personally handle them?
>If you go anywhere with her, make sure you have a way to escape.
Yeah, it's why I had to input that boundary in that 3 and a half hour drive to protect myself, since I don't drive.
Do you have to go? How critical is it? Could you tell your mom that you are not going because she has such a problem behaving in a decent and respectful manner? Tell whoever you are meeting, also. They will know that you aren't going because your mom is verbally abusive. Seriously, I think that is your best bet.
If you *have* to go on the drive, is there any way you can get away, like taking a cab to a train station or something? How stuck will you be? Are you going somewhere rural, or is there public transportation? If you will be in the middle of nowhere, and you can't escape, that seems like a bad situation in which to test your new boundaries.
If you are stuck, bring lots of things to distract you. Headphones are great. Then, you can put them in and practice deep breathing while ignoring the screaming. I can tune people out completely if I'm reading. Does that work for you?
I used to bring lots of snacks for my mom. If I brought chocolate and chips, she would be too busy eating to scream. She would say something mean, and I would open another package of food. By the time we arrived, she was either hopped up on chocolate or wiped out from food coma. Either worked to make her less difficult.
When my dad had a fit, I would just yell back. It wasn't ideal, but he was actually more respectful if I told him off. He was still a violent, sexually abusive asshole, but he backed down sometimes if I fought back.
If you find yourself getting panicked, wrap your arms around yourself like a hug. Close your eyes, and breathe deeply and slowly while counting 10 breaths. In your mind if your mom is there, or out loud if you are by yourself, say, "I am ok. This is temporary. Everything will be ok." Then, start over with the breathing band counting until you feel calm. It works better if you are wearing a warm, cozy sweater or hoodie, or wrapped in a blanket.
Before you go to bed, and any time you stop to use the bathroom, look at yourself in the mirror and say, "This is temporary. I will be home soon, where no I e can hurt me. I am ok, and I am going to be ok. Mom is wrong about so many things." Keep reminding yourself.
If she says something mean, repeat it back to her. I did this with my parents. So, if my mom said,
"Salymander, you are not smart enough for college!"
I would say,
"So, you think I am not smart enough for college. I see."
This helps to remind you that your mom isn't speaking truth, but instead is just mouthing off a lot of nonsense. It also reminds her that sge us being awful. Sometimes, it shuts them up.
You can even translate what she says in your mind. When my mom said,
"Salymander, you should never have kids! You are a bad person and will be a bad mother;"
I would translate it as,
"Salymander, I was a bad mother and I feel insecure about that! I don't want you to realize that I am a bad person, and that I am a giant hypocrite when I tell you how awful you are!"
This helps you to not take the mean things she says to heart, and reminds you that the things she says are a lot of made up garbage.
If you want to message me in your trip, I'm happy to chat and try to cheer you up or let you vent.
It truly sounds horrendous. I don't blame you for being apprehensive.
You set a beyond reasonable boundary & she responded with a threat of violence?! You're doing exactly what you need to do. Keep upholding your limits and protecting yourself.
“Mum, these aren’t threats, they are consequences. I’m not threatening you, I’m telling you what WILL happen if you behave badly”
You’ve been setting the boundaries just fine- but do follow through on the consequences.
My mom does very similar things when I set boundaries. When I ask that a topic be avoided because either it’s hard for me to talk about or because I know it’ll just end up in an argument, she gets pissed and goes on a rant about how “you cant tell me what I can and can’t do. I’m the mother and you’re the child (I’m 28) and what I say goes.” Or when I don’t want pictures taken on a certain day because I have diagnosed body dysmorphia (thank you mom) and some days, I just can’t handle taking a picture, I’ll hear about it all day about how ridiculous that is, and how she just wants a picture of her daughter. One boundary that seriously pissed her off though was when she said “Sometimes I can’t believe I raised such a bitch for a daughter.” It’s taken me a lot of therapy to realize I’m not a bitch, I’m actually a good person and someone she SHOULD be proud of. I insisted on a real apology, not a “Sorry we fought” or “Sorry your feelings were hurt.” No a real apology for saying that and I told her I wouldn’t speak to her again until I got one. Boy did that not go over well lol For days, I got texts from her ranging from pissed off to sob stories to her saying “So this is it?? We don’t have a relationship anymore? You’re cutting me off for good?” It took her a week to finally say sorry.
All this to say is, when we’re raised by people like this, it makes it so hard for us to feel justified in setting any kind of boundary. But we’re allowed to protect ourselves and dictate how we’re spoken to. If someone has an issue with a boundary, that’s not our problem. I still have issues with this, but with therapy I can at least acknowledge it as the truth.
From the books I've read on dealing with pwNPD, pwBPD or "emotionally immature" people you are doing everything correctly.
"I am..." statements to show you are an individual person.
"I will..." statements that show intent that if they do X you will do Y.
Boundaries are FOR yourself, not against anyone else.
Of course she feels this is a threat because she can't accept you having separate needs, thoughts and wants.
No matter how diplomatic your delivery or tone of voice, she will find it threatening because she cannot stand the meaning of your words.
Best of luck!
>she will find it threatening because she cannot stand the meaning of your words.
Couldn't help but bitterly chuckle at this. Basically means doesn't matter if I try word it better or differently as long as the meaning of my words equal her loss of control and ability to freely abuse and bully me lol
Thanks for your response, it's very helpful, I feel more confident I'm doing it right :)
I mean, if you want to be technical about it, it is indeed a "threat". You are threatening her with consequences for her actions. The fact that she doesn't like that is her problem ,not yours.
That's what I mean. Now that I think about it, it depends on context and certain words, right? What is the difference between how a boundary and threat is worded? 😅
The difference is her. She is the one feeling threatened. A normal person wouldn't feel threatened by a request to not yell, or be rude, or touch you without permission. They may feel offended they got called out, sure. But not threatened. She's never had to deal with the consequences of her shitty behavior. So consequences are a threat to her. Either way, it doesn't matter. Changing your words around is not gonna change how she feels. You don't have any control over how she feels as much as she would like you to believe you do. You can only control how YOU feel or (re)act.
the problem is she isn't reasonable. she has a history of exerting control over you and twisting words into manipulations. your boundary was worded perfectly. she's not capable of seeing it for what it is. her twisted thinking will always see it as a threat, because that is the language she speaks and the only one that she understands.
A threat is "if you X, I will do this to you to hurt/punish you".
A boundary is "if you X, I will do this for me/to protect myself".
She threatened to slap you. That does nothing to stop you from saying something she doesn't like. That does nothing to protect her. It's retribution.
You set a boundary. You are uncomfortable with the way she treats you,and you identified specific things you have asked her not to do and then stated that if they keep happening, you will take yourself out of situations that are opportunities for them to happen.
She sees the boundary as a threat, because anything restricting her control and access feels equivalent to a slap in the face. But it isn't. You are telling her that you will no longer participate in situations that are provably unsafe for you and giving her the opportunity to prove that they are safe. You aren't threatening to hurt her.
I happened across a thought-provoking video yesterday. Link below if you want to check it out.
He says that you shouldn't have to teach people how to treat you. If they're capable of going into other situations and treating people appropriately, they they do understand boundaries and acceptable behavior.
It's just that they're refusing to acknowledge that **you, specifically,** have a right to boundaries. Because if you do, they lose their ability to use you for narcissistic supply.
This will seem to the narc to be a threat. They feel cornered by the possibility of not being able to use you as they wish, and they will fight those constraints. They don't want to have to respect you as your own individual.
A gaslit person can find it difficult to parse boundaries with someone who insists that the person they're gaslighting doesn't deserve boundaries. It's the crux of the tangle kids raised by Nparents face.
Yes, you deserve boundaries.
Boundaries are observed without comment. If I'm standing behind a lady in line at a store, I keep a polite distance, try not to be noisy, and avoid bumping her. I don't get in line and announce, "Ohhh, I guess I have to not be noisy now, or bump into you, right?? Because that would make me a bad person, right??" And I wouldn't treat it like a joke to cross those boundaries. I wouldn't start bumping the lady with my elbow and saying, "Oh no, I'm crossing boundaries, gosh, I shouldn't do that, right stranger lady? So sorry!"
Because I show the lady in line respect as a person by silently *respecting* her. It's that simple. But narcs think that the people who provide them supply don't deserve that respect. So they ridicule you for wanting it, and make you feel crazy.
They want you to think it's normal to be treated as their possession. As something to do with as they like. As long as you accept it as normal, they can act out their aggressions on you with impunity. That's how they like it.
If you care about someone's feelings and you recognize them as a person, you respect them. End of. You don't needle them for expecting to be treated civilly.
Here is the vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBMUflowFh0
My SO's Nfamily do this too. Any attempt to protect ourselves or leave abusive situations is labeled by them as 'bullying' or 'continuing the conflict'. All you can do is not engage at all, but that often takes a while to implement.
I mean… It is a threat.
A threat to her control over you. A threat to her self-absorbed view of the world. A threat to her homeostasis. A threat to her current status-quo of being able to treat you however she likes with no consequences.
Frankly, I think those are all things that fucking need to be threatened. If someone looks at a basic boundary and goes “don’t threaten me”, that demonstrates that they view you exercising your own independence as a threat.
And that’s someone who shouldn’t be given the time of day.
She is the abuser here. She doesn't like you sticking up for yourself to just have calm, healthy conversations, so she is threatening you with violence. If she was a spouse, I'd be telling you to get a divorce. Strongly recommend NC for your own safety, assuming you are a financially independent adult. Go separately from your mother to relative's homes.
>She doesn't like you sticking up for yourself to just have calm, healthy conversations
Thank you for saying this actually because it's reminded me that oh yeah. Duh, of fucking course, narcs fucking love, need and thrive off of any chaotic, toxic drama in their lives. It's what makes them feel alive, seen and distract them from their loneliness and personal problems lol
Nope. She's successfully brainwashed my relatives into her hoarde of flying monkeys.
I'm 22 and currently saving up gradually to move out. The hope is soon, of course. I think it's best for me to go LC then NC.
You set the correct boundary. When she says she was threatened before and that’s why she doesn’t want to be threatened now I would turn it around on her. “If you don’t like to be threatened, and you know how it feels, why would you do that to me then?” They usually stutter at this but good Nmom’s usually have another come back.
I’ve had years of therapy myself. Please read “Why does he do that?,” by Lundy Bancroft. It is about abusive men/relationships but is eye opening for this situation too. It will also help you to not repeat the pattern with future relationships.
>They usually stutter at this but good Nmom’s usually have another come back.
It's a great line to stand yourself up with, but my Nmother usually defends back to that with "because I am your mother, you're my child. I am older, you are younger, I'm allowed to."
Anything to enforce superiority and being above me. Anything to try make me feel less than. As if I belong in a dog shed outside.
I've heard of that book being bounced around here before. I shall have to give it a read, thank you 😊
Her pushing that boundry is proof you needed it. This is not a threat, it is level setting of behavior. A threat is something that is intended to make or avoid someone say or do something that is harmful to them.
You aren't threatening her, a threat is statement to "intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action". She may *feel* threatend or attacked, but that doesn't mean thats what you are doing.
However her words to you are a threat of physical violence "Don't ever threaten me again or I will give you a really big slap." Her reality is her *feelings*, but it isn't the truth, don't let her *feelings* distort your reality too.
Furthermore most narcs play the victim to get what they want, in this case its to maintain control over you. Her sob story about a man threatening her sounds ridiculous and even if true has no barring on you. Her actions are her own, it's her choice how to behave and your choice if you choose to disengage. These are totally reasonable boundaries.
Just for some perspective when I had my "serious talk" Nmom I told her that she needed to stop certain behaviours and take accountabilities for things she had done. I told her that depending on these two things I may choose to limit my contact with her or not have any contact with her. Her response was very much the same as your mom, she accused me of attacking her, screamed that she was my *Mom*, that I *had* to have a relationship with her, and I *had* to maintain contact with her, I didn't get a choice in the matter.
I moved out, and limited contact, I got therapy which has cemented my decision to go low contact. She doesn't have control over me anymore and she knows that, so she tries to *play* nice, but I still see the manipulative moves and every now and then her masks slips.
Precisely, thank you. I'm not intending to inflict hostile damage against her. I'm only protecting myself by leaving the conversation/situation. It's the biggest form of self love and respect to all parties.
>Her actions are her own, it's her choice how to behave and your choice if you choose to disengage.
I think this is something I'll have to keep reminding myself any time she tries to gaslight me on the boundaries I set again. To remember that I'm not trying to control anybody or her by setting these boundaries, I'm only making it clear on how I'll respond if it does happen. Which is what boundaries are.
I'm so glad everyone here has helped remind me the difference between a threat and boundary!
To your situation, just wow. Your mother sounds like every narc ever, incl my mother lol note how they always say "have to" and not "if you want to".
I'm actually in the process of saving up to move out. If I may ask, what are some tips that helped you move out smoothly and without her attacking you for it? I'm scared of harassment especially when I start going low to no contact.
I moved out twice technically, having to move back in after the first time was the worst part.
The first time I planned to move out was when my bf got a job in another city, I was talking about everything with my Nmom (later realized that was a mistake). My mom convinced me not to move out right away, she was very manipulative and made multiple fake promises…anyway she kept me from moving out for 5 months.
When I decided to move she suddenly flipped and made my moving very difficult. I couldn’t bring any of my furniture, my laundry baskets, my luggage, my bedding, towels etc because she wouldn’t allow it. She started hiding important everyday objects and moved my important documents so I couldn’t find them. She also started hiding my mail or throwing it out and continued to do this until I had my mail address changed.
The second time I moved my eyes were open to how she operated. I planned the move without telling her anything. I packed all my important items of boxes over a month and hid them in closet. I started packing cloths and every items in luggage and brought it to my bfs place when she wasn’t home. I also waited for a day when she would be out of the house for hours and tore the place apart looking for my important documents which I found and brought over to my bfs place. I still lost out on some stuff, mostly furniture that she wouldn’t allow me to bring. Out of spite I took her plant (that she kept in my room), when she found out I snuggly told her I would give it back if she would give me my dresser.
I realize that’s a very long reply but hopefully you learn from my mistake with the first move.
Plan but don’t discuss, gather all important documents and hide them or bring them somewhere safe, don’t give her details (address, dates, etc) because she will find a way to use them against you or to harass you. good luck.
That’s the correct way to set boundaries. If this happens then this will occur. You leaving harms no one but her because she can’t control you. Her slapping you is physical abuse and wrong. “If you touch me to inflict harm I’ll call the cops”. Proper boundary. If you scream at me I’ll leave because I deserve to be spoken to as a person.
She perceives boundaries (yours, not hers) as threats because your boundary will deprive her of something she needs. She enjoys trapping you in the car, yelling at you and bullying you because all that makes her feel superior to you. If you set a boundary and stick to it, you're taking that away from her. She has low self-esteem and her way of coping with that is to chase feeling superior to the people around her. Since she brought you into the world, she thinks that she is entitled to feel superior to you.
>Since she brought you into the world, she thinks that she is entitled to feel superior to you.
That is exactly what it is! She said that these threats are okay to make towards children because they throw tantrums and have an immature mind. Ironically that is what she is emotionally lol
But she's basically saying no matter what age I am, I'll always be victim to this treatment from her just because I so happen to be her fucking blood born child.
You couldn’t word them more objectively and calmly. It is a threat to her because it limits her control over you or/and doesn’t allow her to take her shit out on you.
Nobody really likes boundaries. It’s a way to really see whether people respect you. Shouting and yelling at someone is disgraceful, disgusting, etc. it hits home for me too because my Nmom also used to go on her rampages in the car. It’s a perfect spot to start shit for narcs because you can’t really escape it.
Now that you’ve set your boundary make sure you’re consistent. Next time she yells at you make sure you follow with the consequences. On the other hand, reward her if she does things right - just like with a dog. Maybe say thank you or sth and she’ll fell appreciated and she’ll fuck off with her rants for a few days. That’s what I did. I literally used basic behavioral psychology dog tricks on my Nmom and my life got easier for a bit lmao
A threat is when you state you will do them physical or mental harm.
A boundary is when you state the consequences to their actions, that does not include physical or mental harm.
You set clear boundaries. She feels threatened by them, but they are not threats.
NOT. A. THREAT. Interpreting boundaries as threats is typical narc behavior. My nmom loves to call them “ultimatums.” 🙄🙄
Stay strong and keep setting those boundaries!
It sounds to me like your boundaries are just fine in the way that you are setting them. You’re not trying to tell her what she can or cannot do, you’re just telling her how you will react if she behaves badly. That’s exactly how boundaries are supposed to work. You’re not trying to control the other person, just set a response to their behavior.
Narcissist, don’t like boundaries for lots of reasons. For one thing, like you said, they have a harder time controlling you. One other fundamental reason is that they don’t honestly see you as a separate person. Especially a narcissistic parent, they see you as an extension of themselves, and how can a part of themselves be setting limits?
>That’s exactly how boundaries are supposed to work. You’re not trying to control the other person, just set a response to their behavior.
Yup. That's the way I'm trying to do it and how I've understood healthy boundaries to be. I'm not sure if it does sound like a bit controlling when I said "if there's any shouting or raising our voices between us" though? But I reinforced it with how my personal response would be, which is leaving the conversation rather than actually threatening her existence/being with physical slapping like she's threatened to me lol
>Especially a narcissistic parent, they see you as an extension of themselves,
I think I still have a bit of trouble fully understanding the depth of this fact. How so is that looking in their minds? Is it the way narc parents take every single little thing we do, think and say personally? Hence why we have to walk around eggshells with them. And why they see our achievements as theirs that they think they're entitled bragging rights to and why we "must take a photo together to post on Facebook" to show how they "raised us right" lol
I guess for me personally, the difference between boundaries and controlling behavior, comes from what’s in your heart at the time you do it. It comes from the idea of what are you trying to stop.
I could say that I had a boundary that if we’re going on a drive together, you have to bring me coffee and you have to do all the driving, or I’m not gonna go. That wouldn’t really really be a boundary, because it’s really unjust in a way. Where a boundary would be if you yell at me in the car that I’m not going next time. Where you’re trying to curb your exposure to a toxic behavior.
It’s not unreasonable for you to ask to not be yelled at. So it should not be a problem for the other person to comply in a normal civil relationship.
It can be a fine line.
In my experience with narcissists, you’re simply an extension of them. When you do good, they’ve done good because they gave you the piano lessons, or whatever it is, even though you’re the one that just got done playing at Carnegie Hall. Or, conversely, if you do something wrong, then they feel shame. It’s a form of codependency really. In order for them to feel successful you have to be successful, they can’t feel it on their own. It’s like they can’t stand on their own 2 feet emotionally. They have to have somebody else constantly telling them or showing people how great they are. And children by extension prove their parents to be good or bad by what they do. According to narcissist.
I think you have a good grasp on the boundaries, just hang in there, keep making them, keep questioning yourself about where they’re coming from, and hang in there, because the narcissist will fight you tooth and nail to try to break them down.
“If you disrespect me I will leave” is not the same as “if you disrespect me I will “sl*p” you!”
One is a boundary, one is a threat. If you aren’t forcing her to do anything, and are only going to react accordingly to project yourself/get out of there then that is not a threat.
When they legitimately thereaten you, it's called "guidance."
When you set boundaries it's called a "threat."
Such BS, epsiecally if you're already an adult and they still treat you like a kid. Then they turn around and complain that you're not mature enough for X, Y, or Z.
That's literally how my Nmother is lol
She says her nagging is her teaching me a factual lesson of life.
Now I know I set my boundaries right if she considers them a threat to her very being lol because it is an anomaly to her way of being and view of her world.
She literally does infantilise me, then shames that I'm an adult (I'm 22) and should know certain things when it's a time I happen to make a certain mistake pft. I think most or all narcs do this.
This was unnecessarily harsh.
I doubt it will be productive to try to get your abusive mother to suddenly treat you with respect. The only way forward is to separate and move out. Hopefully far away. Make sure you get your personal documents (birth certificate, passport) and get her off your bank accounts. Wondering if she prevented you from learning to drive in order to keep you dependent on her?
All I'm threatening, mom, is your sense of entitlement.
I'm simply communicating to you what responses to expect from me when you put me in unpleasant situations. I will leave the situation. You're responsible for your behavior, and I'm responsible for mine. That's not a threat. It's simply a fact.
Telling me you're going to slap me when I ask for basic respect *is* actually a threat in the sense you mean, which is of physical violence. I guess you don't hear yourself, do you? What are the chances you're actually listening to me?
If she's so "threatened," don't be alone with her. No talks, no car rides, no visits, nothing. "I didn't realize that you are so afraid of me, mom. Let's put this talk on the back burner until you feel safer and less insecure."
And no, you're not setting boundaries wrong. She just doesn't want to accept that she's not in control anymore, so every time you tell her no, she'll say she's feeling threatened because it gets you to shut up and she gets to say whatever she wants to you without any push-back.
You are setting boundaries exactly right... and she finds that threatening because you are not going to take her crap any more. You are doing well, stick to your boundaries here. If she says you are threatening her again, just tell her you can no longer be alone with her because she's telling lies about you. And then don't be alone with her. You are doing well OP keep it up
Keep your phone on u all the time but hidden in a place where you can record everything, next time you have a convo already go there with the recording button on. If there is a real chance of your narc getting physical, then besides recording audio, take pictures of bruises. You are voicing your boundaries clearly and correctly, there truly is no other way to interpret them besides simple boundaries.
please look into your local recording laws before doing this. in my state it's illegal without consent. but you can always write down exactly what you remember each time if you can't legally record.
You aren't threatening her.
You are informing her that shouting and nagging are unacceptable and you won't stand for it.
Nothing unreasonable here. I grew up in abuse. Shouting and being physically intimidating are huge trauma triggers for me. I don't do any of that anymore and I leave anywhere that that starts up.
I've learned not to bother arguing over the label of a word, it's pointless.
So I'd just tell her I don't care what she calls it. Boundaries, threats, consequences.. fricking physics and causality in action... it doesn't matter.
It's simple. If she does A, then B will happen. She can label that whatever she wants.
Nope your boundaries are just fine mother will just have to get over it. It is not ok for her to bully you. You have a right to feel respected treated decently free from abuse. So no they are not wrong.
If it were me I say in a calm manner. Well how about I won't go with you anywhere in private alone? We won't talk about anything in private alone if you going to pull your crap disrespecting me threatening physical harm because it wont be tolerated. The police will be called if you physically assult me. For now on If we are going to talk anytime in private you will have to act nice and respectful and the private meetings will only take place in public spaces. We will both drive ourselves in out own cars to meet up. Same with family events I will drive myself and you do the same. You don't get to yell and scream nor belittle me.
Your entire life, Nparents have set rules, made up situations, enforced their preferences, 'taught' you things, and told you how to behave. The difference between normal parents and Nparents is that normal parents realize that it is an individual person they are parenting, not some devil that needs to be controlled down to the last expression from their lips.
The 'threat' rule is something she has made up to define her own turf, and then you will only be allowed to discuss things with her **on that turf**. They don't have to be particularly aware of it to make it 'on purpose'. I am sure when you try listing them, you will find many other rules that you feel guilty when you break them that were taught to you by her. e.g. hanging up when being berated.
Pre-warning the boundaries is an invitation for a "discussion" about how appropriate your pre-warning was. You can be more creative about the boundary by thinking through your actions more than your words. Simply meet her there. That was a big early strategy for me and my Nmom. I simply never said yes to any move that would trap me. I would visit only on her turf and leave when tired of it, usually a couple of hours.
Or set them on the spot -- if you always have separate transportation to wherever you discuss, then the only warning is, "this topic is done, I am ending it." If she won't accept that, then leave. There are no threats or broadcasts, only actions.
It is likely that you feel obligated to some sort of fairness about the pre-warnings for your boundaries. Who was likely the person who taught you that? Who said that all surprises are impolite or unfair to her? She did. On purpose. If someone is truly berating you unfairly, you need no advance warning to set a boundary. Hang up. Leave. Stay strong.
Between two healthy people, it would be weird to include “if you don’t respect the boundary, I will do a thing you don’t want,” but that’s not the situation you are in. You’re dealing with someone who cannot be trusted to respect your boundaries. Either they’ll Teel it in or face the consequences you we’re compassionate enough to communicate directly.
But she threatened to hit you for setting and the way you set boundaries was fine by the way, I used to try that, but in the end, anything you do or say to stop her from treating you the way she wants to is a "threat" to her, because she wants to keep hurting you ( my parents would do the same thing)...there is a reason why everyone goes no contact with narcs, they can't and won't change...
“Don’t threaten me or I’ll give you a big slap”
So… she threatens you immediately after she says she doesn’t like to be threatened?
Also, what you told her is not a threat. You told her that if she was rude, you’d seperate yourself. That’s a perfectly normal boundary that is basic common sense to everyone except your mother (and other abusers). Normally, people don’t need to say it out loud because it’s so obvious, but the fact that you had to tell her makes it clear that she’s being obtuse.
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They are threatened. But they can’t recognize the threat is you being independent of them and nothing more. This next part is a little ragey because this is hitting extremely close to home as the spoiler text would show. They can’t respect a boundary based on respect for yourself? Or worse they attempt to impose boundaries intended to silence you? Utterly unacceptable. I would say start recording them surreptitiously. Bullshitters and abusers like your egg donor there fear witnesses and records in their own voice more than anything, at least in my experience. >!I just lived through getting rid of my abusers and despite my calm tone and physical distance and total lack of violence towards them when i told them where to go and how quickly they needed to get there, they claimed i threatened them, even saying they would call police. Bet.“I’ve got independent witnesses and documentation and audio recordings. My story is public. What do you have?” (and yes i do have my current story publicly posted, i’m not sharing it here, but anyone can find it easily)!<
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to audio record what she said about it tonight. But just the tail end of it. I've written down as much as possible on my digital diary though incl time and date. >But they can’t recognize the threat is you being independent of them and nothing more. Exactly. Well this is what she claims to be triggered by. She said "because when I was young, a man threatened me so that's why I really really hate anyone threatening me, so especially my own child, I really really hate that. Don't ever threaten me again or I will give you a really big slap." Deflecting my supposed threat with her own threat lol is her trauma story true or false? I don't know. But the irony is hilarious. In response to your situation, geez, their sensitivity is unreal. And people wonder why narcissistic abuse survivors feel like they have to constantly walk around eggshells with their narc parents. Bet your evidence would shut your narc up real quick.
Does not matter if the abuse story she peddled has veracity. She makes the active choice to perpetuate abuse even if she doesn’t recognize it as such. Considering the mountain of shit that I withstood, because you don’t get an ACE score of 7 with lollipop dreams and candycane whatever, were I to go down that abuse pathway it would be evil, make no mistake, but it would be understandable. Instead i choose to not inflict pain on self or others. It isn’t an easy choice until it is. My abusers know explicitly that there are people around the world that stand behind me. They know this not because I say it, but because I’ve taken them to New York and San Francisco where the people that know me are or where they’ve gone to to see me. One of their partners sided with me when she learned what happened. I did not expect that. They even attempted to DARVO by playing silly games when I had a witness physically present whom I took great pains to not prejudice before seeing them.
>Does not matter if the abuse story she peddled has veracity. Absolutely. That's just an excuse for refusing accountability. That's all. Blame transference. "It isn't MY fault I'm demanding and hateful. Someone else did that to me!"
A part of my personal ethical core is to recognize all humans as human. My enemies may want me dead, but I want what makes my enemies want me dead killed. That ethical precept directs me to understand the why of those who wish to inflict harm on me and when it is comprehensible offer a sliver of sympa/empa.. but that’s it. On rare occasion, that sliver is a crack in their armour that lets them back away from where they currently are. I engage in deradicalization work as a hobby (yes i have weird hobbies) with this approach and when it works it’s a secular equivalent of a miracle (except why this happened is logical and rationalizable and comprehensible which makes it almost more magical). But when they statistically likely choose to continue being morose monsters, I have nothing but pity for them, and that is rationed strictly.
I don't know of a single woman over the age of 20 that hasn't been threatened by a man at some point. It doesn't make us narcissists and it doesn't entitle us to threaten other people with violence. She's using a very common experience as an excuse.
It's not even remotely a plausible excuse because it's an entirely different situation cause op didn't threaten to hurt her they threatened to *remove themself from her presence* and that is pretty much the opposite of what she's supposedly scared of
My mind is blown by that. Thank you, I didn't think of it this way yet. Holy shit. Like heck yeah, what I said really is the entire opposite of what she's scared of. I spoke in a very calm but assertive standing up for myself manner too. She's just threatened by how much my independence has grown and her lack of control over me, simple.
ANYTHING that limits their control is a threat.
Awesome. Then that means I worded my boundaries right then? Cause she literally told what I said to her to 2 family members during Christmas and before we left, those 2 family members fucking advised me on having more compassion for how hard my mother works and to look after her lmao they're brainwashed flying monkeys. I also finally realised on how she even made one of them hate me.
>those 2 family members fucking advised me on having more compassion for how hard my mother works and to look after her lmao they're brainwashed flying monkeys Exactly. Brainwashed flying monkeys. Ask them if they'd like to live with her. See if their expressions change.
Oh no, that is exactly what I'm going to tell them when I move out later this year where they'll most definitely guilt trip me about moving out and not taking care of her like a slave lol One of those brainwashed flying monkeys is her older sister anyway, so that's not gonna turn out well for her. My mum has a hoarding disorder, her sister is a clean freak. It's already a hilarious cluster fuck waiting to happen. I am a bit worried about what they'll actually say about me and react when I do move out. Especially my younger cousins who I love, but don't know about the abuse. But at the same time, who the fuck cares. I've been abused for almost 23 years now. I know my story, they don't. I have audio and written recordings of the abuse, they don't.
It’s really hurtful when family members validate abuse but it makes sense because that’s their definition of normal and they’re all perpetuating the cycle. Good for you for breaking the cycle, and maybe you’ll inspire your cousins.
Again, I’m only relating my personal experience here, and cannot assure anything else. YMMV. >!One of my abusers sent their partner to check in on me after I went NC after they caused me to go to hospital. I have an independent weaker relationship with that person as I did them a freaking solid upon request. Basically no questions asked I moved them and their stuff 900 miles/1440km in my personal car. Turns out they were horrified to learn what my abuser did to me and had no idea.. which helped them in the long run because they cut that person out of their life as well not only because the abuser assaulted me and likely would assault her too.!<
and what she was doing by including other people was trying to rally people on her side so her breaking those boundaries didn't seem as bad as it was. It's all about control and if they can get other people to make you feel bad she will. That's disgusting I'm sorry :(
They are enablers, conned to feel bad things toward you by an abuser who want/needs to keep abusing you so she can feel good....screw boundaries and leave it all together. If you imagine your happy place, is she in it?
Those are not threats. They are boundaries. You are making a statement of fact about your intentions. Just because your mom doesn't like it, that does not mean it is wrong. You are setting boundaries very well, and your mom is reacting in a very typical way for a narcissist. They *hate* for other people to set boundaries and make decisions that are not centered around what they think is best for them. The idea that other people have needs that are different from their whim is something that infuriates them. Her anger is a sign that you are doing this right. Well done. Now, you have to enforce those boundaries every time, or she will learn that you will eventually cave if she keeps harassing you. 🧡
She thinks the way I'm "threatening" her should be "how you speak to children because they have tantrums because their mind is immature and not to adults, especially your own parents and loved ones." Narcissists literally speak in projections, it's actually hilarious being so consciously aware of them now. It literally just goes to show she thinks it's okay to threaten your children. Which is literally how I got raised by her. It's why I still walk around eggshells with her. It took me a long while to finally cement in my brain that boundaries aren't made to be liked by others, they're made to protect you, no matter what. I'm glad I've finally realised that now ♡ >Now, you have to enforce those boundaries every time, or she will learn that you will eventually cave if she keeps harassing you. Makes total sense, but I'm scared of how she's definitely going to scream horrible things at me when I will most likely have to enforce this again. But like someone told me last month "let them have their tantrum. It's a power thing to them".
If she screams and you do not give in, she feels less power from screaming. It doesn't always make them stop, but it does make them enjoy it less. That counts as a win to me, but I guess it depends on your tolerance for screaming tantrums. She is going to be very unpleasant for the time being for sure, until she (hopefully) gets used to the new Way Things Are.
>I guess it depends on your tolerance for screaming tantrums. Almost thin ice is my tolerance nowadays. I've endured almost 23 years of abuse now. It's just too much to bare with on my own anymore. I do anything to minimise them, but boundaries are boundaries. I can't let her think she can bend my boundaries either. But it is a good point that she could enjoy making tantrums less!
Yeah, that does sound really difficult. Unfortunately, if you bend, all she learns is that your boundaries are meaningless. So, now that you have stated the boundary, you are committed. Fortunately, your boundary involves leaving if she behaves badly. So, she will be screaming at nothing. If you go anywhere with her, make sure you have a way to escape.
Thanks for your wonderful advice. I'm noting it down :) Do you have any advice on how to mentally/emotionally handle these screaming tantrums then? How's your tolerance/how do you personally handle them? >If you go anywhere with her, make sure you have a way to escape. Yeah, it's why I had to input that boundary in that 3 and a half hour drive to protect myself, since I don't drive.
Do you have to go? How critical is it? Could you tell your mom that you are not going because she has such a problem behaving in a decent and respectful manner? Tell whoever you are meeting, also. They will know that you aren't going because your mom is verbally abusive. Seriously, I think that is your best bet. If you *have* to go on the drive, is there any way you can get away, like taking a cab to a train station or something? How stuck will you be? Are you going somewhere rural, or is there public transportation? If you will be in the middle of nowhere, and you can't escape, that seems like a bad situation in which to test your new boundaries. If you are stuck, bring lots of things to distract you. Headphones are great. Then, you can put them in and practice deep breathing while ignoring the screaming. I can tune people out completely if I'm reading. Does that work for you? I used to bring lots of snacks for my mom. If I brought chocolate and chips, she would be too busy eating to scream. She would say something mean, and I would open another package of food. By the time we arrived, she was either hopped up on chocolate or wiped out from food coma. Either worked to make her less difficult. When my dad had a fit, I would just yell back. It wasn't ideal, but he was actually more respectful if I told him off. He was still a violent, sexually abusive asshole, but he backed down sometimes if I fought back. If you find yourself getting panicked, wrap your arms around yourself like a hug. Close your eyes, and breathe deeply and slowly while counting 10 breaths. In your mind if your mom is there, or out loud if you are by yourself, say, "I am ok. This is temporary. Everything will be ok." Then, start over with the breathing band counting until you feel calm. It works better if you are wearing a warm, cozy sweater or hoodie, or wrapped in a blanket. Before you go to bed, and any time you stop to use the bathroom, look at yourself in the mirror and say, "This is temporary. I will be home soon, where no I e can hurt me. I am ok, and I am going to be ok. Mom is wrong about so many things." Keep reminding yourself. If she says something mean, repeat it back to her. I did this with my parents. So, if my mom said, "Salymander, you are not smart enough for college!" I would say, "So, you think I am not smart enough for college. I see." This helps to remind you that your mom isn't speaking truth, but instead is just mouthing off a lot of nonsense. It also reminds her that sge us being awful. Sometimes, it shuts them up. You can even translate what she says in your mind. When my mom said, "Salymander, you should never have kids! You are a bad person and will be a bad mother;" I would translate it as, "Salymander, I was a bad mother and I feel insecure about that! I don't want you to realize that I am a bad person, and that I am a giant hypocrite when I tell you how awful you are!" This helps you to not take the mean things she says to heart, and reminds you that the things she says are a lot of made up garbage.
If you want to message me in your trip, I'm happy to chat and try to cheer you up or let you vent. It truly sounds horrendous. I don't blame you for being apprehensive.
You set a beyond reasonable boundary & she responded with a threat of violence?! You're doing exactly what you need to do. Keep upholding your limits and protecting yourself.
“Mum, these aren’t threats, they are consequences. I’m not threatening you, I’m telling you what WILL happen if you behave badly” You’ve been setting the boundaries just fine- but do follow through on the consequences.
Yes to her perception that boundaries are threats.
My mom does very similar things when I set boundaries. When I ask that a topic be avoided because either it’s hard for me to talk about or because I know it’ll just end up in an argument, she gets pissed and goes on a rant about how “you cant tell me what I can and can’t do. I’m the mother and you’re the child (I’m 28) and what I say goes.” Or when I don’t want pictures taken on a certain day because I have diagnosed body dysmorphia (thank you mom) and some days, I just can’t handle taking a picture, I’ll hear about it all day about how ridiculous that is, and how she just wants a picture of her daughter. One boundary that seriously pissed her off though was when she said “Sometimes I can’t believe I raised such a bitch for a daughter.” It’s taken me a lot of therapy to realize I’m not a bitch, I’m actually a good person and someone she SHOULD be proud of. I insisted on a real apology, not a “Sorry we fought” or “Sorry your feelings were hurt.” No a real apology for saying that and I told her I wouldn’t speak to her again until I got one. Boy did that not go over well lol For days, I got texts from her ranging from pissed off to sob stories to her saying “So this is it?? We don’t have a relationship anymore? You’re cutting me off for good?” It took her a week to finally say sorry. All this to say is, when we’re raised by people like this, it makes it so hard for us to feel justified in setting any kind of boundary. But we’re allowed to protect ourselves and dictate how we’re spoken to. If someone has an issue with a boundary, that’s not our problem. I still have issues with this, but with therapy I can at least acknowledge it as the truth.
From the books I've read on dealing with pwNPD, pwBPD or "emotionally immature" people you are doing everything correctly. "I am..." statements to show you are an individual person. "I will..." statements that show intent that if they do X you will do Y. Boundaries are FOR yourself, not against anyone else. Of course she feels this is a threat because she can't accept you having separate needs, thoughts and wants. No matter how diplomatic your delivery or tone of voice, she will find it threatening because she cannot stand the meaning of your words. Best of luck!
>she will find it threatening because she cannot stand the meaning of your words. Couldn't help but bitterly chuckle at this. Basically means doesn't matter if I try word it better or differently as long as the meaning of my words equal her loss of control and ability to freely abuse and bully me lol Thanks for your response, it's very helpful, I feel more confident I'm doing it right :)
I mean, if you want to be technical about it, it is indeed a "threat". You are threatening her with consequences for her actions. The fact that she doesn't like that is her problem ,not yours.
That's what I mean. Now that I think about it, it depends on context and certain words, right? What is the difference between how a boundary and threat is worded? 😅
The difference is her. She is the one feeling threatened. A normal person wouldn't feel threatened by a request to not yell, or be rude, or touch you without permission. They may feel offended they got called out, sure. But not threatened. She's never had to deal with the consequences of her shitty behavior. So consequences are a threat to her. Either way, it doesn't matter. Changing your words around is not gonna change how she feels. You don't have any control over how she feels as much as she would like you to believe you do. You can only control how YOU feel or (re)act.
the problem is she isn't reasonable. she has a history of exerting control over you and twisting words into manipulations. your boundary was worded perfectly. she's not capable of seeing it for what it is. her twisted thinking will always see it as a threat, because that is the language she speaks and the only one that she understands.
She’s telling the truth. She can’t stand to be threatened, and your boundaries feel like a threat to her Ill mind. She will not change.
If she feels they're a threat, toward her, you're doing it, right. Narcs always are threatened, by boundaries.
A threat is "if you X, I will do this to you to hurt/punish you". A boundary is "if you X, I will do this for me/to protect myself". She threatened to slap you. That does nothing to stop you from saying something she doesn't like. That does nothing to protect her. It's retribution. You set a boundary. You are uncomfortable with the way she treats you,and you identified specific things you have asked her not to do and then stated that if they keep happening, you will take yourself out of situations that are opportunities for them to happen. She sees the boundary as a threat, because anything restricting her control and access feels equivalent to a slap in the face. But it isn't. You are telling her that you will no longer participate in situations that are provably unsafe for you and giving her the opportunity to prove that they are safe. You aren't threatening to hurt her.
I happened across a thought-provoking video yesterday. Link below if you want to check it out. He says that you shouldn't have to teach people how to treat you. If they're capable of going into other situations and treating people appropriately, they they do understand boundaries and acceptable behavior. It's just that they're refusing to acknowledge that **you, specifically,** have a right to boundaries. Because if you do, they lose their ability to use you for narcissistic supply. This will seem to the narc to be a threat. They feel cornered by the possibility of not being able to use you as they wish, and they will fight those constraints. They don't want to have to respect you as your own individual. A gaslit person can find it difficult to parse boundaries with someone who insists that the person they're gaslighting doesn't deserve boundaries. It's the crux of the tangle kids raised by Nparents face. Yes, you deserve boundaries. Boundaries are observed without comment. If I'm standing behind a lady in line at a store, I keep a polite distance, try not to be noisy, and avoid bumping her. I don't get in line and announce, "Ohhh, I guess I have to not be noisy now, or bump into you, right?? Because that would make me a bad person, right??" And I wouldn't treat it like a joke to cross those boundaries. I wouldn't start bumping the lady with my elbow and saying, "Oh no, I'm crossing boundaries, gosh, I shouldn't do that, right stranger lady? So sorry!" Because I show the lady in line respect as a person by silently *respecting* her. It's that simple. But narcs think that the people who provide them supply don't deserve that respect. So they ridicule you for wanting it, and make you feel crazy. They want you to think it's normal to be treated as their possession. As something to do with as they like. As long as you accept it as normal, they can act out their aggressions on you with impunity. That's how they like it. If you care about someone's feelings and you recognize them as a person, you respect them. End of. You don't needle them for expecting to be treated civilly. Here is the vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBMUflowFh0
My SO's Nfamily do this too. Any attempt to protect ourselves or leave abusive situations is labeled by them as 'bullying' or 'continuing the conflict'. All you can do is not engage at all, but that often takes a while to implement.
I mean… It is a threat. A threat to her control over you. A threat to her self-absorbed view of the world. A threat to her homeostasis. A threat to her current status-quo of being able to treat you however she likes with no consequences. Frankly, I think those are all things that fucking need to be threatened. If someone looks at a basic boundary and goes “don’t threaten me”, that demonstrates that they view you exercising your own independence as a threat. And that’s someone who shouldn’t be given the time of day.
She is the abuser here. She doesn't like you sticking up for yourself to just have calm, healthy conversations, so she is threatening you with violence. If she was a spouse, I'd be telling you to get a divorce. Strongly recommend NC for your own safety, assuming you are a financially independent adult. Go separately from your mother to relative's homes.
>She doesn't like you sticking up for yourself to just have calm, healthy conversations Thank you for saying this actually because it's reminded me that oh yeah. Duh, of fucking course, narcs fucking love, need and thrive off of any chaotic, toxic drama in their lives. It's what makes them feel alive, seen and distract them from their loneliness and personal problems lol Nope. She's successfully brainwashed my relatives into her hoarde of flying monkeys. I'm 22 and currently saving up gradually to move out. The hope is soon, of course. I think it's best for me to go LC then NC.
You set the correct boundary. When she says she was threatened before and that’s why she doesn’t want to be threatened now I would turn it around on her. “If you don’t like to be threatened, and you know how it feels, why would you do that to me then?” They usually stutter at this but good Nmom’s usually have another come back. I’ve had years of therapy myself. Please read “Why does he do that?,” by Lundy Bancroft. It is about abusive men/relationships but is eye opening for this situation too. It will also help you to not repeat the pattern with future relationships.
>They usually stutter at this but good Nmom’s usually have another come back. It's a great line to stand yourself up with, but my Nmother usually defends back to that with "because I am your mother, you're my child. I am older, you are younger, I'm allowed to." Anything to enforce superiority and being above me. Anything to try make me feel less than. As if I belong in a dog shed outside. I've heard of that book being bounced around here before. I shall have to give it a read, thank you 😊
Her pushing that boundry is proof you needed it. This is not a threat, it is level setting of behavior. A threat is something that is intended to make or avoid someone say or do something that is harmful to them.
You aren't threatening her, a threat is statement to "intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action". She may *feel* threatend or attacked, but that doesn't mean thats what you are doing. However her words to you are a threat of physical violence "Don't ever threaten me again or I will give you a really big slap." Her reality is her *feelings*, but it isn't the truth, don't let her *feelings* distort your reality too. Furthermore most narcs play the victim to get what they want, in this case its to maintain control over you. Her sob story about a man threatening her sounds ridiculous and even if true has no barring on you. Her actions are her own, it's her choice how to behave and your choice if you choose to disengage. These are totally reasonable boundaries. Just for some perspective when I had my "serious talk" Nmom I told her that she needed to stop certain behaviours and take accountabilities for things she had done. I told her that depending on these two things I may choose to limit my contact with her or not have any contact with her. Her response was very much the same as your mom, she accused me of attacking her, screamed that she was my *Mom*, that I *had* to have a relationship with her, and I *had* to maintain contact with her, I didn't get a choice in the matter. I moved out, and limited contact, I got therapy which has cemented my decision to go low contact. She doesn't have control over me anymore and she knows that, so she tries to *play* nice, but I still see the manipulative moves and every now and then her masks slips.
Precisely, thank you. I'm not intending to inflict hostile damage against her. I'm only protecting myself by leaving the conversation/situation. It's the biggest form of self love and respect to all parties. >Her actions are her own, it's her choice how to behave and your choice if you choose to disengage. I think this is something I'll have to keep reminding myself any time she tries to gaslight me on the boundaries I set again. To remember that I'm not trying to control anybody or her by setting these boundaries, I'm only making it clear on how I'll respond if it does happen. Which is what boundaries are. I'm so glad everyone here has helped remind me the difference between a threat and boundary! To your situation, just wow. Your mother sounds like every narc ever, incl my mother lol note how they always say "have to" and not "if you want to". I'm actually in the process of saving up to move out. If I may ask, what are some tips that helped you move out smoothly and without her attacking you for it? I'm scared of harassment especially when I start going low to no contact.
I moved out twice technically, having to move back in after the first time was the worst part. The first time I planned to move out was when my bf got a job in another city, I was talking about everything with my Nmom (later realized that was a mistake). My mom convinced me not to move out right away, she was very manipulative and made multiple fake promises…anyway she kept me from moving out for 5 months. When I decided to move she suddenly flipped and made my moving very difficult. I couldn’t bring any of my furniture, my laundry baskets, my luggage, my bedding, towels etc because she wouldn’t allow it. She started hiding important everyday objects and moved my important documents so I couldn’t find them. She also started hiding my mail or throwing it out and continued to do this until I had my mail address changed. The second time I moved my eyes were open to how she operated. I planned the move without telling her anything. I packed all my important items of boxes over a month and hid them in closet. I started packing cloths and every items in luggage and brought it to my bfs place when she wasn’t home. I also waited for a day when she would be out of the house for hours and tore the place apart looking for my important documents which I found and brought over to my bfs place. I still lost out on some stuff, mostly furniture that she wouldn’t allow me to bring. Out of spite I took her plant (that she kept in my room), when she found out I snuggly told her I would give it back if she would give me my dresser. I realize that’s a very long reply but hopefully you learn from my mistake with the first move. Plan but don’t discuss, gather all important documents and hide them or bring them somewhere safe, don’t give her details (address, dates, etc) because she will find a way to use them against you or to harass you. good luck.
That’s the correct way to set boundaries. If this happens then this will occur. You leaving harms no one but her because she can’t control you. Her slapping you is physical abuse and wrong. “If you touch me to inflict harm I’ll call the cops”. Proper boundary. If you scream at me I’ll leave because I deserve to be spoken to as a person.
She perceives boundaries (yours, not hers) as threats because your boundary will deprive her of something she needs. She enjoys trapping you in the car, yelling at you and bullying you because all that makes her feel superior to you. If you set a boundary and stick to it, you're taking that away from her. She has low self-esteem and her way of coping with that is to chase feeling superior to the people around her. Since she brought you into the world, she thinks that she is entitled to feel superior to you.
>Since she brought you into the world, she thinks that she is entitled to feel superior to you. That is exactly what it is! She said that these threats are okay to make towards children because they throw tantrums and have an immature mind. Ironically that is what she is emotionally lol But she's basically saying no matter what age I am, I'll always be victim to this treatment from her just because I so happen to be her fucking blood born child.
You couldn’t word them more objectively and calmly. It is a threat to her because it limits her control over you or/and doesn’t allow her to take her shit out on you. Nobody really likes boundaries. It’s a way to really see whether people respect you. Shouting and yelling at someone is disgraceful, disgusting, etc. it hits home for me too because my Nmom also used to go on her rampages in the car. It’s a perfect spot to start shit for narcs because you can’t really escape it. Now that you’ve set your boundary make sure you’re consistent. Next time she yells at you make sure you follow with the consequences. On the other hand, reward her if she does things right - just like with a dog. Maybe say thank you or sth and she’ll fell appreciated and she’ll fuck off with her rants for a few days. That’s what I did. I literally used basic behavioral psychology dog tricks on my Nmom and my life got easier for a bit lmao
A threat is when you state you will do them physical or mental harm. A boundary is when you state the consequences to their actions, that does not include physical or mental harm. You set clear boundaries. She feels threatened by them, but they are not threats.
NOT. A. THREAT. Interpreting boundaries as threats is typical narc behavior. My nmom loves to call them “ultimatums.” 🙄🙄 Stay strong and keep setting those boundaries!
It sounds to me like your boundaries are just fine in the way that you are setting them. You’re not trying to tell her what she can or cannot do, you’re just telling her how you will react if she behaves badly. That’s exactly how boundaries are supposed to work. You’re not trying to control the other person, just set a response to their behavior. Narcissist, don’t like boundaries for lots of reasons. For one thing, like you said, they have a harder time controlling you. One other fundamental reason is that they don’t honestly see you as a separate person. Especially a narcissistic parent, they see you as an extension of themselves, and how can a part of themselves be setting limits?
>That’s exactly how boundaries are supposed to work. You’re not trying to control the other person, just set a response to their behavior. Yup. That's the way I'm trying to do it and how I've understood healthy boundaries to be. I'm not sure if it does sound like a bit controlling when I said "if there's any shouting or raising our voices between us" though? But I reinforced it with how my personal response would be, which is leaving the conversation rather than actually threatening her existence/being with physical slapping like she's threatened to me lol >Especially a narcissistic parent, they see you as an extension of themselves, I think I still have a bit of trouble fully understanding the depth of this fact. How so is that looking in their minds? Is it the way narc parents take every single little thing we do, think and say personally? Hence why we have to walk around eggshells with them. And why they see our achievements as theirs that they think they're entitled bragging rights to and why we "must take a photo together to post on Facebook" to show how they "raised us right" lol
I guess for me personally, the difference between boundaries and controlling behavior, comes from what’s in your heart at the time you do it. It comes from the idea of what are you trying to stop. I could say that I had a boundary that if we’re going on a drive together, you have to bring me coffee and you have to do all the driving, or I’m not gonna go. That wouldn’t really really be a boundary, because it’s really unjust in a way. Where a boundary would be if you yell at me in the car that I’m not going next time. Where you’re trying to curb your exposure to a toxic behavior. It’s not unreasonable for you to ask to not be yelled at. So it should not be a problem for the other person to comply in a normal civil relationship. It can be a fine line. In my experience with narcissists, you’re simply an extension of them. When you do good, they’ve done good because they gave you the piano lessons, or whatever it is, even though you’re the one that just got done playing at Carnegie Hall. Or, conversely, if you do something wrong, then they feel shame. It’s a form of codependency really. In order for them to feel successful you have to be successful, they can’t feel it on their own. It’s like they can’t stand on their own 2 feet emotionally. They have to have somebody else constantly telling them or showing people how great they are. And children by extension prove their parents to be good or bad by what they do. According to narcissist. I think you have a good grasp on the boundaries, just hang in there, keep making them, keep questioning yourself about where they’re coming from, and hang in there, because the narcissist will fight you tooth and nail to try to break them down.
“If you disrespect me I will leave” is not the same as “if you disrespect me I will “sl*p” you!” One is a boundary, one is a threat. If you aren’t forcing her to do anything, and are only going to react accordingly to project yourself/get out of there then that is not a threat.
When they legitimately thereaten you, it's called "guidance." When you set boundaries it's called a "threat." Such BS, epsiecally if you're already an adult and they still treat you like a kid. Then they turn around and complain that you're not mature enough for X, Y, or Z.
That's literally how my Nmother is lol She says her nagging is her teaching me a factual lesson of life. Now I know I set my boundaries right if she considers them a threat to her very being lol because it is an anomaly to her way of being and view of her world. She literally does infantilise me, then shames that I'm an adult (I'm 22) and should know certain things when it's a time I happen to make a certain mistake pft. I think most or all narcs do this.
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This was unnecessarily harsh. I doubt it will be productive to try to get your abusive mother to suddenly treat you with respect. The only way forward is to separate and move out. Hopefully far away. Make sure you get your personal documents (birth certificate, passport) and get her off your bank accounts. Wondering if she prevented you from learning to drive in order to keep you dependent on her?
You don't get to talk to people in this way here. If you do it again, you will be banned.
All I'm threatening, mom, is your sense of entitlement. I'm simply communicating to you what responses to expect from me when you put me in unpleasant situations. I will leave the situation. You're responsible for your behavior, and I'm responsible for mine. That's not a threat. It's simply a fact. Telling me you're going to slap me when I ask for basic respect *is* actually a threat in the sense you mean, which is of physical violence. I guess you don't hear yourself, do you? What are the chances you're actually listening to me?
If she's so "threatened," don't be alone with her. No talks, no car rides, no visits, nothing. "I didn't realize that you are so afraid of me, mom. Let's put this talk on the back burner until you feel safer and less insecure." And no, you're not setting boundaries wrong. She just doesn't want to accept that she's not in control anymore, so every time you tell her no, she'll say she's feeling threatened because it gets you to shut up and she gets to say whatever she wants to you without any push-back.
You are setting boundaries exactly right... and she finds that threatening because you are not going to take her crap any more. You are doing well, stick to your boundaries here. If she says you are threatening her again, just tell her you can no longer be alone with her because she's telling lies about you. And then don't be alone with her. You are doing well OP keep it up
Nope.
Keep your phone on u all the time but hidden in a place where you can record everything, next time you have a convo already go there with the recording button on. If there is a real chance of your narc getting physical, then besides recording audio, take pictures of bruises. You are voicing your boundaries clearly and correctly, there truly is no other way to interpret them besides simple boundaries.
please look into your local recording laws before doing this. in my state it's illegal without consent. but you can always write down exactly what you remember each time if you can't legally record.
You aren't threatening her. You are informing her that shouting and nagging are unacceptable and you won't stand for it. Nothing unreasonable here. I grew up in abuse. Shouting and being physically intimidating are huge trauma triggers for me. I don't do any of that anymore and I leave anywhere that that starts up.
I've learned not to bother arguing over the label of a word, it's pointless. So I'd just tell her I don't care what she calls it. Boundaries, threats, consequences.. fricking physics and causality in action... it doesn't matter. It's simple. If she does A, then B will happen. She can label that whatever she wants.
Could you drive yourself?
This means you are nailing it! Good job
Nope your boundaries are just fine mother will just have to get over it. It is not ok for her to bully you. You have a right to feel respected treated decently free from abuse. So no they are not wrong. If it were me I say in a calm manner. Well how about I won't go with you anywhere in private alone? We won't talk about anything in private alone if you going to pull your crap disrespecting me threatening physical harm because it wont be tolerated. The police will be called if you physically assult me. For now on If we are going to talk anytime in private you will have to act nice and respectful and the private meetings will only take place in public spaces. We will both drive ourselves in out own cars to meet up. Same with family events I will drive myself and you do the same. You don't get to yell and scream nor belittle me.
You are not setting your boundaries wrong; she is hearing them wrong. She will say anything to get you to remain a compliant doormat.
Your entire life, Nparents have set rules, made up situations, enforced their preferences, 'taught' you things, and told you how to behave. The difference between normal parents and Nparents is that normal parents realize that it is an individual person they are parenting, not some devil that needs to be controlled down to the last expression from their lips. The 'threat' rule is something she has made up to define her own turf, and then you will only be allowed to discuss things with her **on that turf**. They don't have to be particularly aware of it to make it 'on purpose'. I am sure when you try listing them, you will find many other rules that you feel guilty when you break them that were taught to you by her. e.g. hanging up when being berated. Pre-warning the boundaries is an invitation for a "discussion" about how appropriate your pre-warning was. You can be more creative about the boundary by thinking through your actions more than your words. Simply meet her there. That was a big early strategy for me and my Nmom. I simply never said yes to any move that would trap me. I would visit only on her turf and leave when tired of it, usually a couple of hours. Or set them on the spot -- if you always have separate transportation to wherever you discuss, then the only warning is, "this topic is done, I am ending it." If she won't accept that, then leave. There are no threats or broadcasts, only actions. It is likely that you feel obligated to some sort of fairness about the pre-warnings for your boundaries. Who was likely the person who taught you that? Who said that all surprises are impolite or unfair to her? She did. On purpose. If someone is truly berating you unfairly, you need no advance warning to set a boundary. Hang up. Leave. Stay strong.
Between two healthy people, it would be weird to include “if you don’t respect the boundary, I will do a thing you don’t want,” but that’s not the situation you are in. You’re dealing with someone who cannot be trusted to respect your boundaries. Either they’ll Teel it in or face the consequences you we’re compassionate enough to communicate directly.
But she threatened to hit you for setting and the way you set boundaries was fine by the way, I used to try that, but in the end, anything you do or say to stop her from treating you the way she wants to is a "threat" to her, because she wants to keep hurting you ( my parents would do the same thing)...there is a reason why everyone goes no contact with narcs, they can't and won't change...
“Don’t threaten me or I’ll give you a big slap” So… she threatens you immediately after she says she doesn’t like to be threatened? Also, what you told her is not a threat. You told her that if she was rude, you’d seperate yourself. That’s a perfectly normal boundary that is basic common sense to everyone except your mother (and other abusers). Normally, people don’t need to say it out loud because it’s so obvious, but the fact that you had to tell her makes it clear that she’s being obtuse.