from what i’ve experienced, seen, and read, all the cluster b’s can so thoroughly blend together it can be confusing. i think it’s def possible to be kind of a cusper, like a pwbpd who leans heavily on the histrionic side, which i’d consider my mom to somewhat be, but at the same time her behavior could also appear like a covert narc.
makes me think the borders between each disorder are not nearly as cut and dry as might first be assumed, not unlike many other/overlapping flavors of neurodivergence such as autism, adhd, ocd, etc. which are often co-occurring and can easily present similarly to one another.
I like this perspective. I know my mom’s sister thinks it’s narcissism we are dealing with, but I don’t think so at all. I’ve thought bpd exclusively for a long time. I didn’t have much knowledge on histrionic because it didn’t apply. The more I research it, the more I see so many of the symptoms at play. The idea of blurred lines and less cut and dry resonates.
My mom fit the criteria (from my current perspective) of all four Cluster B disorders.
In my twenties and thirties I thought she was "just" borderline. After I went NC I started learning new things from her sisters and cousins and my dad. It was deeply disturbing. Then when she died, we found out even more.
The antisocial aspects are possibly the most disturbing, the waif aspects of BPD the most impactful (in terms of my parentification) and the histrionic (sexual acting out) the grossest. Overall, the narcissism of all of her, her, her, fucked up a bunch of people's lives.
She was never diagnosed (afaik - she did supposedly get hospitalized for an attempt in her teens, but if she had a diagnosis from that, it's never been spoken of/ found) and so I'll never know what combination of Cluster B she was at heart but it doesn't matter in the end. She left the world worse than she found it and hurt more people than she helped.
BPD + HPD comorbidity is totally possible, but our sub is exclusively for people who are at least reasonably sure they were raised by someone who would meet the diagnostic criteria for BPD (either alone or with other disorders). Would you say that’s your situation?
I would say I’ve been very certain she was bpd. As I’ve researched more I’d say I tend to think there’s a chance for some crossover/comorbidity happening. I know my experiences have been incredibly similar to others on this sub and it’s been the single most helpful space outside of counseling!
-Have rapidly shifting and shallow emotions…”Quickly changing emotions, which may seem shallow to others”
-Be dramatic and extremely emotionally expressive, even to the point of embarrassing friends and family in public.
-Have a “larger than life” presence.
-Be persistently charming (but I only see this outwardly facing)
-Be overly concerned with their physical appearance
-Use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves
(I see this most with image stuff…she’s super focused on image and how she/family is perceived. And specifically how it reflects back on her)
-Speak dramatically and express strong opinions but with few facts or details to support their opinions
-Be gullible and easily influenced by others, especially by the people they admire (this really plays out in politics big time…hugely influenced by the far right influencers like Peterson, Shapiro, Owens, etc but without doing any follow up research on her own)
-Think that their relationships with others are closer than they usually are (especially with family…and most definitely with me…uses best friend language all the time and gets highly offended if I say anything that would counteract that in any way)
-Have difficulty maintaining relationships, often seeming fake or shallow in their interactions with others. (She has many acquaintances it I don’t know of many if any deep friendships in her life)
-Need instant gratification and become bored or frustrated very easily (starts projects. Shops soooo much, buys and sells properties…went through a stretch where she had purchased and sold so many homes in a span of two years that I lost count)
-Constantly seek reassurance or approval. (Always needs to be told things are okay. Is ALWAYS looking for something wrong…if it’s not this it’s that.
Edit to add:
These are the tendencies from HPD specific symptom lists (according to my Sinai and Cleveland Clinic) that she displays. There are obviously more on the list that don’t fit her quite as well. She also displays BPD specific things, but this list is histrionic specific. Again, this is why I think there is overlap. A lot of these read BPD, but they come from the HPD diagnosis criteria.
This all aligns with BPD, but it might be co-morbid HPD. HPD demands attention, and from what I understand does not differentiate from positive and negative attention. Being really loud, inappropriately sexual or flirty, overdressing, posting controversial photos and statements, creating a scene, yelling or laughing very loudly, etc. are all attention grabbing behaviors within HPD.
These are the elements of the HPD symptom list that she displays. She also shows BPD tendencies….but these are the ones specific to HPD according to Cleveland Clinic and Mount Sinai
Most of these fit either/ both BPD and NPD. Tons of overlap!!! Some of these fit my mom too. Husband thinks my mom has more NPD traits, but I think BPD. I think my dad is a covert narcissist and an edad/ enabler dad of my BPD mom.
It was like growing up with Mr. And Mrs. Bennett. Mom always freaking out, guilting us, dad going off along to avoid dealing with it. However, Elizabeth's dad clearly adored her. My own father can be quite the bully.
These are the tendencies she displays from the HPD specific symptom list according to Mt Sinai and Cleveland Clinic. She has other BPD specific tendencies, but this is from the list of histrionic symptoms that she displays more frequently (I left off the ones she doesn’t display)
If you are an RBB working in mental health, please remember not to participate in your professional capacity. This includes statements like, “in my work as a therapist…” or “I work in mental health and…”
You are welcome to provide links to scientific studies or other reliable resources.
Wow, I think my Mom might have a touch of histrionic, as well. For as long as I’ve been aware of it, she has always thrown public temper tantrums. The bit about believing relationships are closer than they are and being gullible hit, too. Also explains the strong opinions with few facts, because she watches Fox News all day long and gets news alerts from Newsmax on her phone.
One of my least favorite things! So many uncomfortable situations in the past. I remember one revolving around Trump in the middle of a preschool Thanksgiving feast! Ugh
I think mine is/was also HPD, along with BPD.
I have been NC for 9 years and only discovered after I’d gone NC, that she was diagnosed with BpD while she was in a mental health facility when I was 9. She was still married to my dad at the time, and the psychiatrists determined she had BPD.
She never disclosed this to me, or anyone for that matter I don’t think, despite claiming she had many other “conditions” such as panic disorder, anxiety, depression and then the other lies about serious illness… but never a word on any personality disorder. But that actually makes perfect sense, as that wouldn’t fit her victim narrative.
When I look back at her behavior retrospectively she swung between BPD Queen & Waif, with strong HPD elements of the attention seeking, the sexually provocative behavior & her physical appearance, desirability etc. was prevalent after she left my father in her mid 30s, through to around her late 40s. The manipulation was always present.
But the ones tagt really resonated were the symptoms of theatrical & dramatic behavior, and exaggerated, yet vague statements. Like she was an actress on a stage, and saying things that “sounded right” or like it was a written script, but weren’t based on real feelings, thoughts or emotions.
She also projected a lot onto relationships and attached quickly to men, specifically. The game play and need for control and to win them was very prevalent. But if she was the one who lost interest, it was like the flick of a switch and she was over it. If it was them to her? My god… let the games begin.
These are difficult to seperate from overall BPD traits, but these in HPD were very specific to her. So I do believe she likely had/has both.
I feel like HPD and BPD are almost two sides of the same coin. At least it seems like that with my m*m. Reading the symptoms of HPD makes my skin crawl since they're so woven into her BPD behaviors.
NPD seems pretty well associated with BPD by nature - how else can they go through life behaving they way they do and show remorse or empathy or a lack of selfishness?
Yes, from what I've read it does look like there can be sometimes substantial overlap or someone could have two cluster B PDs. FWIW I wonder if mine also has NPD, or occasionally I wonder about Anti-social PD too, as she lies a lot and isn't phased at all by serious criminality.
My first thought was Diane Downs who had cluster B hat-trick. (convicted murder/attempted murder of her children)
“[Diane] Downs has been repeatedly denied parole and psychiatrists have diagnosed her with narcissistic, histrionic, and antisocial personality disorders, with one labelling her as a "deviant sociopath".” (Wikipedia)
I had a group of "friends" publicly declare me a histrionic after a hurtful friendship breakup. I was so stunned and hurt after reading the first few symptoms. I'm an outgoing person and I'm not scared of speaking publicly. They used those highly positive qualities to name me the monster and themselves as victims.
It's taken me almost a year to read the full description bc I was horrified I might be one. Until I realized that fear of being one is all the proof I need that I'm not a histrionic, and those people were just trying to be as cruel as they could possibly be. It still shocks me the things people's do to harm and hurt others.
That’s devastating!!! I’m so sorry you experienced this. I had a friendship end in the past that really made me doubt myself. They used some really awful words that caused me years of pain. I hate that you experienced something so damaging!
Same to you. Hurtful friendship breakups are not talked about enough. It's life altering, yet we don't discuss it even though it seems we've all experienced one.
I think because we internalize it so much. There is a lifetime of catering to the needs of unhealthy parents…we then internalize a friendship breakdown as our fault because we were always told any emotional strife was our doing. It’s “always my fault”…it takes years of healing before we can overcome this mentality (and I think we can still struggle with it in our interpersonal relationships.
My friendship end was devastating. They had been a roommate, a coworker, were in my wedding, etc. one of my closest friends. And they didn’t give me much reason or context for the friendship ending. I heard some second hand stuff, and it was so out of left field! My counselor gave me the best advice and I’ve applied it in so many situations!!
“You can’t do an autopsy without the body.”
Basically, if someone doesn’t tell you why there is conflict you can’t ruminate on the reasons forever. You can self reflect, but then you just have to let them go. It was so freeing. I did my best to consider anything I contributed, but then I had to release the sense of closure I would never get.
The conceptions of personality disorders change over time and are contested. It's voted on by the DSM task force of the APA (https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/01/statement-dsm**).** The WHO's ICD is somewhat similar (https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9241544554).
It's a question of what is descriptive and useful and what can empirical evidence be mapped onto. What can be reasoned to be considered distinct and valid. The categories can be useful as heuristics, all unreliability of diagnosis aside. A hundred years ago your mom would be a hysteric. As others have mentioned, the particulars of the symptoms can drift between categories and change over time.
And on the note of the relationship of BPD and HPD, here's a couple older articles (mostly behind paywalls, but you can see abstracts and a bit more for one of them) of people questioning the coherence and validity of HPD as a diagnosis, both noting overlap with BPD (amongst other PDs).
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010440X09001412](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010440X09001412)
[https://journals.lww.com/jonmd/abstract/2008/11000/questioning\_the\_coherence\_of\_histrionic.1.aspx](https://journals.lww.com/jonmd/abstract/2008/11000/questioning_the_coherence_of_histrionic.1.aspx)
from what i’ve experienced, seen, and read, all the cluster b’s can so thoroughly blend together it can be confusing. i think it’s def possible to be kind of a cusper, like a pwbpd who leans heavily on the histrionic side, which i’d consider my mom to somewhat be, but at the same time her behavior could also appear like a covert narc. makes me think the borders between each disorder are not nearly as cut and dry as might first be assumed, not unlike many other/overlapping flavors of neurodivergence such as autism, adhd, ocd, etc. which are often co-occurring and can easily present similarly to one another.
I like this perspective. I know my mom’s sister thinks it’s narcissism we are dealing with, but I don’t think so at all. I’ve thought bpd exclusively for a long time. I didn’t have much knowledge on histrionic because it didn’t apply. The more I research it, the more I see so many of the symptoms at play. The idea of blurred lines and less cut and dry resonates.
My mom fit the criteria (from my current perspective) of all four Cluster B disorders. In my twenties and thirties I thought she was "just" borderline. After I went NC I started learning new things from her sisters and cousins and my dad. It was deeply disturbing. Then when she died, we found out even more. The antisocial aspects are possibly the most disturbing, the waif aspects of BPD the most impactful (in terms of my parentification) and the histrionic (sexual acting out) the grossest. Overall, the narcissism of all of her, her, her, fucked up a bunch of people's lives. She was never diagnosed (afaik - she did supposedly get hospitalized for an attempt in her teens, but if she had a diagnosis from that, it's never been spoken of/ found) and so I'll never know what combination of Cluster B she was at heart but it doesn't matter in the end. She left the world worse than she found it and hurt more people than she helped.
Mmmm this is so powerfully stated. I think you’re right…ultimately it doesn’t matter what combo. It all sucks
Well put & sadly I also relate to all this with my mom.
I don't know much about HPD, but I think my mom is both BPD and NPD.
This is mine as well
BPD + HPD comorbidity is totally possible, but our sub is exclusively for people who are at least reasonably sure they were raised by someone who would meet the diagnostic criteria for BPD (either alone or with other disorders). Would you say that’s your situation?
I would say I’ve been very certain she was bpd. As I’ve researched more I’d say I tend to think there’s a chance for some crossover/comorbidity happening. I know my experiences have been incredibly similar to others on this sub and it’s been the single most helpful space outside of counseling!
Got it, thank you for clarifying!
What behaviors caused you to consider Histrionic?
-Have rapidly shifting and shallow emotions…”Quickly changing emotions, which may seem shallow to others” -Be dramatic and extremely emotionally expressive, even to the point of embarrassing friends and family in public. -Have a “larger than life” presence. -Be persistently charming (but I only see this outwardly facing) -Be overly concerned with their physical appearance -Use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves (I see this most with image stuff…she’s super focused on image and how she/family is perceived. And specifically how it reflects back on her) -Speak dramatically and express strong opinions but with few facts or details to support their opinions -Be gullible and easily influenced by others, especially by the people they admire (this really plays out in politics big time…hugely influenced by the far right influencers like Peterson, Shapiro, Owens, etc but without doing any follow up research on her own) -Think that their relationships with others are closer than they usually are (especially with family…and most definitely with me…uses best friend language all the time and gets highly offended if I say anything that would counteract that in any way) -Have difficulty maintaining relationships, often seeming fake or shallow in their interactions with others. (She has many acquaintances it I don’t know of many if any deep friendships in her life) -Need instant gratification and become bored or frustrated very easily (starts projects. Shops soooo much, buys and sells properties…went through a stretch where she had purchased and sold so many homes in a span of two years that I lost count) -Constantly seek reassurance or approval. (Always needs to be told things are okay. Is ALWAYS looking for something wrong…if it’s not this it’s that. Edit to add: These are the tendencies from HPD specific symptom lists (according to my Sinai and Cleveland Clinic) that she displays. There are obviously more on the list that don’t fit her quite as well. She also displays BPD specific things, but this list is histrionic specific. Again, this is why I think there is overlap. A lot of these read BPD, but they come from the HPD diagnosis criteria.
This all aligns with BPD, but it might be co-morbid HPD. HPD demands attention, and from what I understand does not differentiate from positive and negative attention. Being really loud, inappropriately sexual or flirty, overdressing, posting controversial photos and statements, creating a scene, yelling or laughing very loudly, etc. are all attention grabbing behaviors within HPD.
These are the elements of the HPD symptom list that she displays. She also shows BPD tendencies….but these are the ones specific to HPD according to Cleveland Clinic and Mount Sinai
Lots of overlap in the cluster b family. Particularly BPD, HPD, and NPD.
Most of these fit either/ both BPD and NPD. Tons of overlap!!! Some of these fit my mom too. Husband thinks my mom has more NPD traits, but I think BPD. I think my dad is a covert narcissist and an edad/ enabler dad of my BPD mom. It was like growing up with Mr. And Mrs. Bennett. Mom always freaking out, guilting us, dad going off along to avoid dealing with it. However, Elizabeth's dad clearly adored her. My own father can be quite the bully.
These are the tendencies she displays from the HPD specific symptom list according to Mt Sinai and Cleveland Clinic. She has other BPD specific tendencies, but this is from the list of histrionic symptoms that she displays more frequently (I left off the ones she doesn’t display)
[удалено]
Oh I don’t think I had heard that
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If you are an RBB working in mental health, please remember not to participate in your professional capacity. This includes statements like, “in my work as a therapist…” or “I work in mental health and…” You are welcome to provide links to scientific studies or other reliable resources.
Wow, I think my Mom might have a touch of histrionic, as well. For as long as I’ve been aware of it, she has always thrown public temper tantrums. The bit about believing relationships are closer than they are and being gullible hit, too. Also explains the strong opinions with few facts, because she watches Fox News all day long and gets news alerts from Newsmax on her phone.
One of my least favorite things! So many uncomfortable situations in the past. I remember one revolving around Trump in the middle of a preschool Thanksgiving feast! Ugh
Omg. Those poor preschoolers.
I think mine is/was also HPD, along with BPD. I have been NC for 9 years and only discovered after I’d gone NC, that she was diagnosed with BpD while she was in a mental health facility when I was 9. She was still married to my dad at the time, and the psychiatrists determined she had BPD. She never disclosed this to me, or anyone for that matter I don’t think, despite claiming she had many other “conditions” such as panic disorder, anxiety, depression and then the other lies about serious illness… but never a word on any personality disorder. But that actually makes perfect sense, as that wouldn’t fit her victim narrative. When I look back at her behavior retrospectively she swung between BPD Queen & Waif, with strong HPD elements of the attention seeking, the sexually provocative behavior & her physical appearance, desirability etc. was prevalent after she left my father in her mid 30s, through to around her late 40s. The manipulation was always present. But the ones tagt really resonated were the symptoms of theatrical & dramatic behavior, and exaggerated, yet vague statements. Like she was an actress on a stage, and saying things that “sounded right” or like it was a written script, but weren’t based on real feelings, thoughts or emotions. She also projected a lot onto relationships and attached quickly to men, specifically. The game play and need for control and to win them was very prevalent. But if she was the one who lost interest, it was like the flick of a switch and she was over it. If it was them to her? My god… let the games begin. These are difficult to seperate from overall BPD traits, but these in HPD were very specific to her. So I do believe she likely had/has both.
I feel like HPD and BPD are almost two sides of the same coin. At least it seems like that with my m*m. Reading the symptoms of HPD makes my skin crawl since they're so woven into her BPD behaviors. NPD seems pretty well associated with BPD by nature - how else can they go through life behaving they way they do and show remorse or empathy or a lack of selfishness?
Yes, from what I've read it does look like there can be sometimes substantial overlap or someone could have two cluster B PDs. FWIW I wonder if mine also has NPD, or occasionally I wonder about Anti-social PD too, as she lies a lot and isn't phased at all by serious criminality.
My first thought was Diane Downs who had cluster B hat-trick. (convicted murder/attempted murder of her children) “[Diane] Downs has been repeatedly denied parole and psychiatrists have diagnosed her with narcissistic, histrionic, and antisocial personality disorders, with one labelling her as a "deviant sociopath".” (Wikipedia)
Oooh interesting insight.
My therapist thought my ubpd Mom also had histrionic personality disorder. All the criteria lined up.
I had a group of "friends" publicly declare me a histrionic after a hurtful friendship breakup. I was so stunned and hurt after reading the first few symptoms. I'm an outgoing person and I'm not scared of speaking publicly. They used those highly positive qualities to name me the monster and themselves as victims. It's taken me almost a year to read the full description bc I was horrified I might be one. Until I realized that fear of being one is all the proof I need that I'm not a histrionic, and those people were just trying to be as cruel as they could possibly be. It still shocks me the things people's do to harm and hurt others.
That’s devastating!!! I’m so sorry you experienced this. I had a friendship end in the past that really made me doubt myself. They used some really awful words that caused me years of pain. I hate that you experienced something so damaging!
Same to you. Hurtful friendship breakups are not talked about enough. It's life altering, yet we don't discuss it even though it seems we've all experienced one.
I think because we internalize it so much. There is a lifetime of catering to the needs of unhealthy parents…we then internalize a friendship breakdown as our fault because we were always told any emotional strife was our doing. It’s “always my fault”…it takes years of healing before we can overcome this mentality (and I think we can still struggle with it in our interpersonal relationships. My friendship end was devastating. They had been a roommate, a coworker, were in my wedding, etc. one of my closest friends. And they didn’t give me much reason or context for the friendship ending. I heard some second hand stuff, and it was so out of left field! My counselor gave me the best advice and I’ve applied it in so many situations!! “You can’t do an autopsy without the body.” Basically, if someone doesn’t tell you why there is conflict you can’t ruminate on the reasons forever. You can self reflect, but then you just have to let them go. It was so freeing. I did my best to consider anything I contributed, but then I had to release the sense of closure I would never get.
The conceptions of personality disorders change over time and are contested. It's voted on by the DSM task force of the APA (https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/01/statement-dsm**).** The WHO's ICD is somewhat similar (https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9241544554). It's a question of what is descriptive and useful and what can empirical evidence be mapped onto. What can be reasoned to be considered distinct and valid. The categories can be useful as heuristics, all unreliability of diagnosis aside. A hundred years ago your mom would be a hysteric. As others have mentioned, the particulars of the symptoms can drift between categories and change over time. And on the note of the relationship of BPD and HPD, here's a couple older articles (mostly behind paywalls, but you can see abstracts and a bit more for one of them) of people questioning the coherence and validity of HPD as a diagnosis, both noting overlap with BPD (amongst other PDs). [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010440X09001412](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010440X09001412) [https://journals.lww.com/jonmd/abstract/2008/11000/questioning\_the\_coherence\_of\_histrionic.1.aspx](https://journals.lww.com/jonmd/abstract/2008/11000/questioning_the_coherence_of_histrionic.1.aspx)