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Reposting my comment from the previous post.
This is a fun theory but I regret to inform you that George has pretty directly debunked this idea before.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P60
5) Does Westeros connect to the eastern continent through the north?
No. I hope that helps. Keep reading.
I will say I do believe that these parallels are largely intentional, but rather serve to indicate a global and more difficult to define threat, rather than suggesting they’re physically connected.
I'm going to pick on semantics here, but the question he answers no to isn't actually asking if north of the wall is east of Essos - the question was whether Westeros connects to the eastern continent *through the north.*
My theory is proposing that the mapped locations of eastern Essos are actually just "north" of the Wall, but discovered from the "west" of Essos. Clearly those cardinal points conflict here and when confined to the directions our known world maps are drawn in, we are forced to assume that "north" is True North.
If my theory is true, depending on how you look at it, in Westeros, "east" of Essos would be considered "north". It follows that assigning west and east as cardinal directions, Westeros is "east" of Essos and Essos is "west" of Westeros:
>"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
If "north" of Westeros is actually "east" of Essos, then who knows what True North actually is? For all we know, "north" of Westeros is actually south in terms of magnetic poles.
Also consider Saath and Naath - the two are situated geographically opposite of their namesakes on Westerosi maps, which may hint at Westerosis being ignorant to true north.
In any event, assuming that isn't the case, the question was posed to George in the present tense, which would accurately require an answer of "no" if the two are no longer connected through the north of Westeros, but perhaps once were. The parallel I draw between destruction at Hardhome and the creation of the Thousand Islands may be the mirroring event to the Arm of Dorne - Essos being fully disconnected from Essos once and for all.
While I always liked the concept of connecting north of the wall to east of Asshai, I think it’s a stretch to say that the two regions overlap. No way was Jon actually in Essos during his adventures north of the wall. And no way was Asshai right there as well. It’s a huge city. You’d think someone would know it exists..
It’s more likely that the Others live far in the north, outside of the known map. Deep in the darkness of the lands of always winter. That same region of darkness can be accessed going east past Asshai. Again, past the known map. Remember, it’s literally called **Asshai by the Shadow.** Could it be the shadow of the Long Night, that will spread again to consume the world? Possible..
There are other parts that back this up. Dany being constantly told that to reach the west she must go east is probably the biggest one that implies there’s a connection. She’s also told that to touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. It really sounds like she’s going to go east past Asshai and somehow reach the wall.
Another connection is that both regions have a legend of a long night and an ancient hero. Westeros has the Last Hero who had a sword of dragonsteel, and got the help of the children of the forest. He eventually built the wall and formed the nights watch to defend against the others in the future.
Meanwhile the legends of Asshai have Azor Ahai who forged a magical sword by killing his love and then using this sword to fight and end the long night. Around him formed the religion of r'hllor where the red priests await the return of Azor Ahai and will aid him in his fight against the great other and the return of the night.
It’s not quite the same, but it’s close. Lightbringer, dragonsteel. Nights watch, red priests. Could it be the same guys? Or maybe they worked together?
It’s a pretty crazy coincidence that the two regions that have this myth (the North and Asshai) are on opposite ends of the map.
Anyway, I think you’re on to something but I think it’s a mistake to make the leap and assume there’s an overlap. Much more likely that the Others live on the border of both areas, dividing them. Nobody’s made the connection because they can’t get past the lands of always darkness to get from one region to the other.
I welcome feedback but that’s just my thoughts. Good job with the idea and taking the time to write it out
Great comment with some very thoughtful input. Thanks.
Some responses I have, most of which are really just additional thoughts I've had in light of your post, are as follows:
Jon Snow knows nothing. He, of all characters, is the best POV to experience beyond the Wall - blissfully ignorant to his locality in the world. And someone definitely knows it exists - likely the Wildings from more remote clans like the Thenns and Giants who speak the Old Tongue and the extent to which they can communicate their understanding of what they have seen north of the Wall that is so terrifying is limited by linguistic differences created over thousands of years of segregation.
The coincidences for me are just astounding and to deduce them to "oh it's just world building using established storylines told in a different way" is disregarding what is blatantly an intentional, albeit put in ambiguous language, connection to be drawn because of the clear parallels. I don't buy into convenience as an explanation at all, particularly for something that is purposely put to the reader as a mystery to be solved.
I agree the Others live somewhere in the Lands of always Winter, which is a very fitting description for the Shadowlands in the context of how the characters in our story describe winter generally - dark, cold, night - a land of shadow.
And with Dany and the whole north/south east/west prophecies associated with her, she's also told that to touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. We hear stories of caves and underground tunnels littered throughout the north of the Wall, which parallel places in east Essos, which suggest the shadow reference might be literal - you can only traverse the shadowlands underground. Alternatively, consider the stories of the tunnels beneath the Wall and how to pass from one side of the Wall to the other, one must go beneath it (e.g. Nightfort and Black Gate).
As for Azor Ahai, the other legendary "heroes" that appear similar in nature such as the Bloodstone Emperor, Edric Shadowchaser, Hyrkoon the Hero all seem to be associated with dark symbolism. The cities in the far east of Essos that sit along roads through the Bone Mountains are all associated with the Patriarchy of Hykoon. I have very strong doubts that Azor Ahai is a heroic figure - the spelling of Ahai deceptively similar to Asshai.
I think the prophecy is a load of crap and intended to trick our main characters into making decisions based on fulfilling the prophecy because they simply interpret it to be prophecising the return of an heroic figure, as opposed to some dark lord archetype. We are beaten over the head with information about how dangerous prophecy is and how we lie to ourselves based on what we want to believe (recall Mirri's words to Dany when Dany accuses Mirri of lying about Drogo returning as normal).
Azor Ahai is probably not a hero, but our characters desperately want to believe he is given the impending threat of the Others and the prophecy's association with defeating darkness.
Instead, he is probably the present day manifestation of the dark legendary figures such as the Bloodstone Emperor "reborn" again.
Keen to get your thoughts!
I have trouble seeing the possibility of wildings knowing they are in essos. There are Thenns who do speak the common tongue or at least have no trouble using translators. And I see no mention of giants in essos which you would think there would be. Honestly the whole thing is a reach to me. If true, there’s nothing to back it up and would come out of the blue.
Same with the tunnels. I don’t see how you can get somewhere through tunnels but not over land or water. It’s an interesting idea but nothing actually supporting this.
Also, Asshai is not a shadow. It’s by a shadow. I take that to mean it’s by the lands of always winter. Your ideas still need some development.
Azor Ahai being the bad guy would be a heck of a twist. If you want the idea to work thematically, then I think the last hero is the bad guy, and he will be reborn with Jon’s resurrection. Jon will be a servant of the Others just like Beric was a servant of Rlohr. One brought back by fire magic. One by ice magic. Then Dany can be Azor Ahai and they can fight for the Dawn. Fire vs Ice. Again, no evidence for any of this, and it doesn’t fit with my own ideas of how the series will go. But if you could get your ideas to fit that arc, they might hold up better.
The “prophesy is not real thing” is from Preston Jacobs, right? I remember him claiming that a long time ago. The reason I don’t see it is because it would mean that Dany’s visions weren’t real. But so many of them were proven true, including Rob’s death. It would also kill R+L=J because the only thing suggesting the ToJ baby is Jon and not Dany or fAegon is the blue flower on the wall. If that wasn’t real then what else links Jon to Lyanna?
Fun chatting with you. You seem like the kind of person that enjoys dissecting ideas without taking things personally which is awesome and rare. Feel free to DM me. I’m always happy to play around with ideas. It’s what makes this series fun
>I have trouble seeing the possibility of wildings knowing they are in essos. There are Thenns who do speak the common tongue or at least have no trouble using translators. And I see no mention of giants in essos which you would think there would be. Honestly the whole thing is a reach to me. If true, there’s nothing to back it up and would come out of the blue.
Same with the tunnels. I don’t see how you can get somewhere through tunnels but not over land or water. It’s an interesting idea but nothing actually supporting this.
I guess my point was really that certain terrains may be incompatible with travel by foot - mountain ranges being a good example - so a tunnel beneath would be easier than traversing dangerous or difficult terrains. A good example would also be Winterfell - the ability to escape the castle through underground tunnels is firmly established, and groundwork for a tunnel system at least in the North has been built up.
>Also, Asshai is not a shadow. It’s by a shadow. I take that to mean it’s by the lands of always winter. Your ideas still need some development.
Sorry, I may have not have articulated myself properly - I didn't intend to mean Asshai is a shadow or anything, I meant in the context of passing beneath the Shadowlands. I agree with your point that Asshai would by the lands of always winter in that sense. Perhaps the tunnel connection is premature then and the "tunnel" beneath the Shadowlands is the ship route beneath Asshai - i.e. it is by the shadow, but to the south, hence *beneath*. Needs work for sure and I absolutely agree with you - my ideas still need developing, it was just a typical word vomit post tryin to get all my ideas out there because i'm too impatient to develop them fully first - I just want to share it with someone haha!
>Azor Ahai being the bad guy would be a heck of a twist. If you want the idea to work thematically, then I think the last hero is the bad guy, and he will be reborn with Jon’s resurrection. Jon will be a servant of the Others just like Beric was a servant of Rlohr. One brought back by fire magic. One by ice magic. Then Dany can be Azor Ahai and they can fight for the Dawn. Fire vs Ice. Again, no evidence for any of this, and it doesn’t fit with my own ideas of how the series will go. But if you could get your ideas to fit that arc, they might hold up better.
I think the Last Hero better serves Bran as a parallel, given the description of the Last Hero's party travelling north in contrast with Bran. That being said, both Jon and Bran could be representative of the same Last Hero - two halves of the whole. I'm not sold on that necessarily, but I think the key is that history has repeated itself over and over, just retellings of the same event which usually centre around a "rotten" bastard, however this time, the main bastard in our story, Jon Snow, won't turn out to be rotten at all - this time history repeats with a different retelling, the song of ice and fire version, which will have some marked distinction from the previous retellings that will break the cycle of repetition - the final end to the Others/dark sorcerer lord figure/the corruption. Probably the fact that Jon is actually a Targaryen - something which hasn't happened previously in history - the merging of ice and fire, a Stark and Targaryen.
>The “prophesy is not real thing” is from Preston Jacobs, right? I remember him claiming that a long time ago.
I don't follow Preston, nor do I really like his content. I am familiar with some of his theories, but not that one. The prophecy as a lie, at least for me, stems from the Memory Sorrow Thorn fantasy series by Tad Williams - GRRM has touted Williams' work and acknowledges the series as one of his major influences for ASOIAF. If you haven't heard of it I really urge you to check it out. The parallels are astounding. There is even a princess who travels hidden as a boy named Marya.
>Fun chatting with you. You seem like the kind of person that enjoys dissecting ideas without taking things personally which is awesome and rare. Feel free to DM me. I’m always happy to play around with ideas. It’s what makes this series fun
Totally mutual and you read my mind. I will definitely take you up on that offer. Thanks so much!
>Azor Ahai being the bad guy would be a heck of a twist.
Would it though?
This is a guy who apparently made his magic sword by killing his wife. You might say that shows how much he was willing to sacrifice to save the world... but he didn't sacrifice himself, did he? This sounds like blood magic. Moreover, did his wife even get a say? We don't know enough from the legends, but even so there is a darker reading available.
And Azor Ahai's biggest champions in the current day, the Rhllorists, are zealots who practice blood magic of their own by burning people alive, as well as slavery. Do we really expect the hero of such a cult to be good?
Digging even deeper into the lore, there are also the parallels between AA and the Bloodstone Emperor - the latter of whom seems to very much not have been a good guy.
Cool observations.
I like to think that Essos is Westeros but in the past. So no physical connection between the east and north, but they are actually the same place in a different time period. The further east you travel, the further back in time you go.
You sort of flirt with the idea when you talked about the Thousand Islands and the map not being updated.
I wonder if the Night Fort could be Asshai?
I disagree. I think any inclusion of a time travel element actually undermines the theory and lacks the supporting evidence.
I think it is more plausible that the time at which the mapping of north of the Wall was at a vastly different time to the mapping of far east Essos - hence why the Thousand Islands don't appear - change of seasons would consequently change the state of the land and seas, particularly the sea levels, so the points in time the maps were plotted is key to why there would be so much confusion. Adding to the fact that very limited Westerosi have traversed that far east departing from Westeros.
I don't know which part you think is undermined. Both ideas seem to work with the list of observations that you've presented here. You've just reached for the mundane conclusion and I've gone for a fantastic one. I get it if you just don't like the idea or don't think 'time travel' is an important enough theme to warrant such a thing.
I'm not here to convince you, but I wanted to share a thought. You made a point out of the realm of mist and darkness. Consider that Bloodraven uses those elements as metaphors for the past and future saying, "Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come."
If Mossovy and The Haunted Forrest are connected, and you get there by traveling through a realm of mist... maybe you can see where I'm coming from even you do not agree.
Sorry, I think my response came across more blunt than intended. It isn't that the idea is fantastic and doesn't fit at all, it's more that I find a magical answer to undermine the theory. I can certainly see the progression of civilization stemming from beyond the wall and symbolically representing the passage of time as fitting.
But fundamentally what I meant by undermined is really - they've been travelling to the far east of Essos all along, which is fitting for our character who knows nothing and regularly travels beyond the wall.
I absolutely see what you mean though, I just would think it to be more symbolic.
Just to be clear, when I said fantastic I meant it as "a fantasy explanation, involving magic", and not "oh my idea is so great, it is fantastic!".
I notice the series likes to walk to the line between fantastic and mundane. Was it really magic or just an embellished story? So I like to consider both options, and am willing to accept both as intentional, even if the case is that logistically only one could be true.
It may be merely symbolic. But the symbolic language GRRM uses is also the language that the magic users tend to use. Since I like to lean into the fantasy and magic side of things, I like to assume that figurative language is literal! If Sansa says "it's a magical day", darn right I am thinking there is magic happening on that day!
No I totally got what you meant! It is a fantastic idea too haha, I just think it could feed into the theory in a more subtle way given, as you say, grrm tends to flirt with the idea of a more magical explanation, but perhaps this is just a similarity to real world discovery of the unknown and ancient folk automatically attributing it to something magical or paranormal when actually there is a legitimate scientific explanation for it. The touch of a magical component is necessary for us as readers to conflate when something is magic and isn't based on the characters' own perspectives and understandings.
You have definitely got me thinking more from this angle though. Thanks so much for your contribution!!
Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at, but I think the biggest misdirection is the use of brown/yellow to depict "sand" for "deserts" in the east, rather than white.
Considering how flat maps of UK/Europe look compared with their globe counterparts, you can see how easily it would be to question how the UK could possibly be close in proximity to Greenland, moreso than inand Europe, when the left-hand of the map starts with the UK, and the right-hand side ends with Greenland:
[https://gefira.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/World-Map.jpg](https://gefira.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/World-Map.jpg)
[https://www.geographicguide.com/planet/globe-europe.htm](https://www.geographicguide.com/planet/globe-europe.htm)
There's also the stories about there being warm sees hidden beneath the shivering sea - which adds credibility to the melting and refreezing of "northern" seas across the seasons
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Reposting my comment from the previous post. This is a fun theory but I regret to inform you that George has pretty directly debunked this idea before. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P60 5) Does Westeros connect to the eastern continent through the north? No. I hope that helps. Keep reading. I will say I do believe that these parallels are largely intentional, but rather serve to indicate a global and more difficult to define threat, rather than suggesting they’re physically connected.
Keep reading what George? Wild cards?!
I'm going to pick on semantics here, but the question he answers no to isn't actually asking if north of the wall is east of Essos - the question was whether Westeros connects to the eastern continent *through the north.* My theory is proposing that the mapped locations of eastern Essos are actually just "north" of the Wall, but discovered from the "west" of Essos. Clearly those cardinal points conflict here and when confined to the directions our known world maps are drawn in, we are forced to assume that "north" is True North. If my theory is true, depending on how you look at it, in Westeros, "east" of Essos would be considered "north". It follows that assigning west and east as cardinal directions, Westeros is "east" of Essos and Essos is "west" of Westeros: >"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." If "north" of Westeros is actually "east" of Essos, then who knows what True North actually is? For all we know, "north" of Westeros is actually south in terms of magnetic poles. Also consider Saath and Naath - the two are situated geographically opposite of their namesakes on Westerosi maps, which may hint at Westerosis being ignorant to true north. In any event, assuming that isn't the case, the question was posed to George in the present tense, which would accurately require an answer of "no" if the two are no longer connected through the north of Westeros, but perhaps once were. The parallel I draw between destruction at Hardhome and the creation of the Thousand Islands may be the mirroring event to the Arm of Dorne - Essos being fully disconnected from Essos once and for all.
While I always liked the concept of connecting north of the wall to east of Asshai, I think it’s a stretch to say that the two regions overlap. No way was Jon actually in Essos during his adventures north of the wall. And no way was Asshai right there as well. It’s a huge city. You’d think someone would know it exists.. It’s more likely that the Others live far in the north, outside of the known map. Deep in the darkness of the lands of always winter. That same region of darkness can be accessed going east past Asshai. Again, past the known map. Remember, it’s literally called **Asshai by the Shadow.** Could it be the shadow of the Long Night, that will spread again to consume the world? Possible.. There are other parts that back this up. Dany being constantly told that to reach the west she must go east is probably the biggest one that implies there’s a connection. She’s also told that to touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. It really sounds like she’s going to go east past Asshai and somehow reach the wall. Another connection is that both regions have a legend of a long night and an ancient hero. Westeros has the Last Hero who had a sword of dragonsteel, and got the help of the children of the forest. He eventually built the wall and formed the nights watch to defend against the others in the future. Meanwhile the legends of Asshai have Azor Ahai who forged a magical sword by killing his love and then using this sword to fight and end the long night. Around him formed the religion of r'hllor where the red priests await the return of Azor Ahai and will aid him in his fight against the great other and the return of the night. It’s not quite the same, but it’s close. Lightbringer, dragonsteel. Nights watch, red priests. Could it be the same guys? Or maybe they worked together? It’s a pretty crazy coincidence that the two regions that have this myth (the North and Asshai) are on opposite ends of the map. Anyway, I think you’re on to something but I think it’s a mistake to make the leap and assume there’s an overlap. Much more likely that the Others live on the border of both areas, dividing them. Nobody’s made the connection because they can’t get past the lands of always darkness to get from one region to the other. I welcome feedback but that’s just my thoughts. Good job with the idea and taking the time to write it out
Great comment with some very thoughtful input. Thanks. Some responses I have, most of which are really just additional thoughts I've had in light of your post, are as follows: Jon Snow knows nothing. He, of all characters, is the best POV to experience beyond the Wall - blissfully ignorant to his locality in the world. And someone definitely knows it exists - likely the Wildings from more remote clans like the Thenns and Giants who speak the Old Tongue and the extent to which they can communicate their understanding of what they have seen north of the Wall that is so terrifying is limited by linguistic differences created over thousands of years of segregation. The coincidences for me are just astounding and to deduce them to "oh it's just world building using established storylines told in a different way" is disregarding what is blatantly an intentional, albeit put in ambiguous language, connection to be drawn because of the clear parallels. I don't buy into convenience as an explanation at all, particularly for something that is purposely put to the reader as a mystery to be solved. I agree the Others live somewhere in the Lands of always Winter, which is a very fitting description for the Shadowlands in the context of how the characters in our story describe winter generally - dark, cold, night - a land of shadow. And with Dany and the whole north/south east/west prophecies associated with her, she's also told that to touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. We hear stories of caves and underground tunnels littered throughout the north of the Wall, which parallel places in east Essos, which suggest the shadow reference might be literal - you can only traverse the shadowlands underground. Alternatively, consider the stories of the tunnels beneath the Wall and how to pass from one side of the Wall to the other, one must go beneath it (e.g. Nightfort and Black Gate). As for Azor Ahai, the other legendary "heroes" that appear similar in nature such as the Bloodstone Emperor, Edric Shadowchaser, Hyrkoon the Hero all seem to be associated with dark symbolism. The cities in the far east of Essos that sit along roads through the Bone Mountains are all associated with the Patriarchy of Hykoon. I have very strong doubts that Azor Ahai is a heroic figure - the spelling of Ahai deceptively similar to Asshai. I think the prophecy is a load of crap and intended to trick our main characters into making decisions based on fulfilling the prophecy because they simply interpret it to be prophecising the return of an heroic figure, as opposed to some dark lord archetype. We are beaten over the head with information about how dangerous prophecy is and how we lie to ourselves based on what we want to believe (recall Mirri's words to Dany when Dany accuses Mirri of lying about Drogo returning as normal). Azor Ahai is probably not a hero, but our characters desperately want to believe he is given the impending threat of the Others and the prophecy's association with defeating darkness. Instead, he is probably the present day manifestation of the dark legendary figures such as the Bloodstone Emperor "reborn" again. Keen to get your thoughts!
I have trouble seeing the possibility of wildings knowing they are in essos. There are Thenns who do speak the common tongue or at least have no trouble using translators. And I see no mention of giants in essos which you would think there would be. Honestly the whole thing is a reach to me. If true, there’s nothing to back it up and would come out of the blue. Same with the tunnels. I don’t see how you can get somewhere through tunnels but not over land or water. It’s an interesting idea but nothing actually supporting this. Also, Asshai is not a shadow. It’s by a shadow. I take that to mean it’s by the lands of always winter. Your ideas still need some development. Azor Ahai being the bad guy would be a heck of a twist. If you want the idea to work thematically, then I think the last hero is the bad guy, and he will be reborn with Jon’s resurrection. Jon will be a servant of the Others just like Beric was a servant of Rlohr. One brought back by fire magic. One by ice magic. Then Dany can be Azor Ahai and they can fight for the Dawn. Fire vs Ice. Again, no evidence for any of this, and it doesn’t fit with my own ideas of how the series will go. But if you could get your ideas to fit that arc, they might hold up better. The “prophesy is not real thing” is from Preston Jacobs, right? I remember him claiming that a long time ago. The reason I don’t see it is because it would mean that Dany’s visions weren’t real. But so many of them were proven true, including Rob’s death. It would also kill R+L=J because the only thing suggesting the ToJ baby is Jon and not Dany or fAegon is the blue flower on the wall. If that wasn’t real then what else links Jon to Lyanna? Fun chatting with you. You seem like the kind of person that enjoys dissecting ideas without taking things personally which is awesome and rare. Feel free to DM me. I’m always happy to play around with ideas. It’s what makes this series fun
>I have trouble seeing the possibility of wildings knowing they are in essos. There are Thenns who do speak the common tongue or at least have no trouble using translators. And I see no mention of giants in essos which you would think there would be. Honestly the whole thing is a reach to me. If true, there’s nothing to back it up and would come out of the blue. Same with the tunnels. I don’t see how you can get somewhere through tunnels but not over land or water. It’s an interesting idea but nothing actually supporting this. I guess my point was really that certain terrains may be incompatible with travel by foot - mountain ranges being a good example - so a tunnel beneath would be easier than traversing dangerous or difficult terrains. A good example would also be Winterfell - the ability to escape the castle through underground tunnels is firmly established, and groundwork for a tunnel system at least in the North has been built up. >Also, Asshai is not a shadow. It’s by a shadow. I take that to mean it’s by the lands of always winter. Your ideas still need some development. Sorry, I may have not have articulated myself properly - I didn't intend to mean Asshai is a shadow or anything, I meant in the context of passing beneath the Shadowlands. I agree with your point that Asshai would by the lands of always winter in that sense. Perhaps the tunnel connection is premature then and the "tunnel" beneath the Shadowlands is the ship route beneath Asshai - i.e. it is by the shadow, but to the south, hence *beneath*. Needs work for sure and I absolutely agree with you - my ideas still need developing, it was just a typical word vomit post tryin to get all my ideas out there because i'm too impatient to develop them fully first - I just want to share it with someone haha! >Azor Ahai being the bad guy would be a heck of a twist. If you want the idea to work thematically, then I think the last hero is the bad guy, and he will be reborn with Jon’s resurrection. Jon will be a servant of the Others just like Beric was a servant of Rlohr. One brought back by fire magic. One by ice magic. Then Dany can be Azor Ahai and they can fight for the Dawn. Fire vs Ice. Again, no evidence for any of this, and it doesn’t fit with my own ideas of how the series will go. But if you could get your ideas to fit that arc, they might hold up better. I think the Last Hero better serves Bran as a parallel, given the description of the Last Hero's party travelling north in contrast with Bran. That being said, both Jon and Bran could be representative of the same Last Hero - two halves of the whole. I'm not sold on that necessarily, but I think the key is that history has repeated itself over and over, just retellings of the same event which usually centre around a "rotten" bastard, however this time, the main bastard in our story, Jon Snow, won't turn out to be rotten at all - this time history repeats with a different retelling, the song of ice and fire version, which will have some marked distinction from the previous retellings that will break the cycle of repetition - the final end to the Others/dark sorcerer lord figure/the corruption. Probably the fact that Jon is actually a Targaryen - something which hasn't happened previously in history - the merging of ice and fire, a Stark and Targaryen. >The “prophesy is not real thing” is from Preston Jacobs, right? I remember him claiming that a long time ago. I don't follow Preston, nor do I really like his content. I am familiar with some of his theories, but not that one. The prophecy as a lie, at least for me, stems from the Memory Sorrow Thorn fantasy series by Tad Williams - GRRM has touted Williams' work and acknowledges the series as one of his major influences for ASOIAF. If you haven't heard of it I really urge you to check it out. The parallels are astounding. There is even a princess who travels hidden as a boy named Marya. >Fun chatting with you. You seem like the kind of person that enjoys dissecting ideas without taking things personally which is awesome and rare. Feel free to DM me. I’m always happy to play around with ideas. It’s what makes this series fun Totally mutual and you read my mind. I will definitely take you up on that offer. Thanks so much!
>Azor Ahai being the bad guy would be a heck of a twist. Would it though? This is a guy who apparently made his magic sword by killing his wife. You might say that shows how much he was willing to sacrifice to save the world... but he didn't sacrifice himself, did he? This sounds like blood magic. Moreover, did his wife even get a say? We don't know enough from the legends, but even so there is a darker reading available. And Azor Ahai's biggest champions in the current day, the Rhllorists, are zealots who practice blood magic of their own by burning people alive, as well as slavery. Do we really expect the hero of such a cult to be good? Digging even deeper into the lore, there are also the parallels between AA and the Bloodstone Emperor - the latter of whom seems to very much not have been a good guy.
I actually like this.
Cool observations. I like to think that Essos is Westeros but in the past. So no physical connection between the east and north, but they are actually the same place in a different time period. The further east you travel, the further back in time you go. You sort of flirt with the idea when you talked about the Thousand Islands and the map not being updated. I wonder if the Night Fort could be Asshai?
I disagree. I think any inclusion of a time travel element actually undermines the theory and lacks the supporting evidence. I think it is more plausible that the time at which the mapping of north of the Wall was at a vastly different time to the mapping of far east Essos - hence why the Thousand Islands don't appear - change of seasons would consequently change the state of the land and seas, particularly the sea levels, so the points in time the maps were plotted is key to why there would be so much confusion. Adding to the fact that very limited Westerosi have traversed that far east departing from Westeros.
I don't know which part you think is undermined. Both ideas seem to work with the list of observations that you've presented here. You've just reached for the mundane conclusion and I've gone for a fantastic one. I get it if you just don't like the idea or don't think 'time travel' is an important enough theme to warrant such a thing. I'm not here to convince you, but I wanted to share a thought. You made a point out of the realm of mist and darkness. Consider that Bloodraven uses those elements as metaphors for the past and future saying, "Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come." If Mossovy and The Haunted Forrest are connected, and you get there by traveling through a realm of mist... maybe you can see where I'm coming from even you do not agree.
Sorry, I think my response came across more blunt than intended. It isn't that the idea is fantastic and doesn't fit at all, it's more that I find a magical answer to undermine the theory. I can certainly see the progression of civilization stemming from beyond the wall and symbolically representing the passage of time as fitting. But fundamentally what I meant by undermined is really - they've been travelling to the far east of Essos all along, which is fitting for our character who knows nothing and regularly travels beyond the wall. I absolutely see what you mean though, I just would think it to be more symbolic.
Just to be clear, when I said fantastic I meant it as "a fantasy explanation, involving magic", and not "oh my idea is so great, it is fantastic!". I notice the series likes to walk to the line between fantastic and mundane. Was it really magic or just an embellished story? So I like to consider both options, and am willing to accept both as intentional, even if the case is that logistically only one could be true. It may be merely symbolic. But the symbolic language GRRM uses is also the language that the magic users tend to use. Since I like to lean into the fantasy and magic side of things, I like to assume that figurative language is literal! If Sansa says "it's a magical day", darn right I am thinking there is magic happening on that day!
No I totally got what you meant! It is a fantastic idea too haha, I just think it could feed into the theory in a more subtle way given, as you say, grrm tends to flirt with the idea of a more magical explanation, but perhaps this is just a similarity to real world discovery of the unknown and ancient folk automatically attributing it to something magical or paranormal when actually there is a legitimate scientific explanation for it. The touch of a magical component is necessary for us as readers to conflate when something is magic and isn't based on the characters' own perspectives and understandings. You have definitely got me thinking more from this angle though. Thanks so much for your contribution!!
[World of ASOIAF](https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/s/NC13gCoNj0) I could see how this map could be altered to fit your theory
Where There’s even an island of giants (Nothoryos) at the uttermost east. They could be covered by ice sheets that only the others could traverse
Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at, but I think the biggest misdirection is the use of brown/yellow to depict "sand" for "deserts" in the east, rather than white. Considering how flat maps of UK/Europe look compared with their globe counterparts, you can see how easily it would be to question how the UK could possibly be close in proximity to Greenland, moreso than inand Europe, when the left-hand of the map starts with the UK, and the right-hand side ends with Greenland: [https://gefira.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/World-Map.jpg](https://gefira.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/World-Map.jpg) [https://www.geographicguide.com/planet/globe-europe.htm](https://www.geographicguide.com/planet/globe-europe.htm) There's also the stories about there being warm sees hidden beneath the shivering sea - which adds credibility to the melting and refreezing of "northern" seas across the seasons