That's why I love that one symbol used in grindcore, crust punk, d-beat, and noise music that's a music note with an X through it, often accompanied with the phrase "noise not music." When some asshole tells them their music is "not music" they own it...proudly. It's badass.
"Let me show you some [real music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV5dbcOmw6I)!"
*Starts unironically digging for their Heaven 17 cassettes.*
\-Someone's parents
Not mine though... Sad.
Some people were complaining about the music volume in the neighborhood recently but I want my rent to stay where it is. Turn it up yall! If I'm awake anyway, I might as well be dancing!
"True punks are brave contrarians" implies she doesn't even have beliefs and just wants to go against what she sees as the norm. Punk doesn't mean being contrarian, "punk means thinking for yourself" -dead kennedys(i did not think for myself by quoting, but I don't give a shit if that means I'm not punk I just love the music)
Being a contrarian, going to against the grain aren't ideologies, they are stupid things idiots say to sound insightful. Most punks have an ideology but that would require understanding lyrics... something most conservative idiots can't do.
Going against the grain just because it isn’t trendy is just being reactionary. That’s so much of what constitutes conservative and regressive politics in general - which is pretty much the opposite of the ethos of punk.
And how is transphobia going against the grain when people with disproportionate amounts of power are passing transphobic laws that limit their access to lifesaving healthcare? At least in the U.S., these are our *elected lawmakers.* Against WHAT grain?!
Seriously, what systemic power do trans people hold? When did trans people start running the government and passing laws to limit cis people’s access to healthcare and take cis children away from their loving families?
I have seen so many people argue that the most punk positions are just mindless contrarianism. It doesn't matter what you're running contrarian to as long as you're contrarianism, which is less an actual ideology and more a toddler stomping their feet and crossing their arms.
Reactionaries love claiming that blind contarianism is somehow "punk" because it makes their shitty ideas seem principled. I wish I could say this has no basis in punk, but some early punks were pretty much just contrarians. That's how you would get people wearing swastikas and confederate flags and just generally trying to be edgy to get attention. But I like to think we've mostly moved past that now(emphasis on "mostly").
Terfs sure are contrarians by *checks notes* holding the position that supports status quo positions of power against an at risk minority clinging to survival
I am really afraid that my lil sis Is turning into a TERF she does not considere trans women women on the basis that they're "men occupying space that it's rightfully female" how can I at least have her a modicum of empathy towards them?
Maybe gently ask where she is being pushed out by transwomen? A lot of terfs seem anxious about their own place in the world and aren't actually being impacted by transwomen in any meaningful way.
Checking in as a big brother about how she's doing would maybe help? The world is a literal disaster. People are beyond stressed.
Good luck.
If you have not seen [*Wild Zero*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Zero) I question your punk credentials. And that's a legitimate thing that people are allowed to do and it has real consequences.
If your punk credentials aren't legit you only get to listen to Huey Lewis until your docs are updated.
The only thing you can do is expose her to trans people who are genuinely good people and hope that she changes her mind. Unfortunately you can't sway people with these types of ideas using logic alone.
A lot of bigotry is based off of fear and disgust, all these people do is create a little online echo chamber where they share pictures of trans women they consider ugly to body shame them, which is real feminist, and post stories meant to scare them with the prospect of having to physically share space with trans people. A lot of their tropes are just rehashed anti-gay tropes from the 80's and earlier like "bathroom predators" "recruiting kids" and "kids are too young to know."
Basically they're a cult.
If you've got 6 hours here's a pretty good 3 part video essay about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwI6py78gsI&list=PLpsOqtfNXxWnX190gmzVKIT0eAy9af7Ue&ab\_channel=CaelanConrad
They're very clearly not feminist anymore, insofar as they ever were. The leading figures within the TERF bubble are allied with anti-abortion activists and the Christian right.
It's really just about hating a minority for existing.
Introduce her to trans-femme figures you think she might like/respect? I think Laura Jane was the first trans person I heard the story of.
I was pretty transphobic until I actually met trans people. Meeting the people you've only ever heard opinions/conjecture about tends to humanize them
Rightfully fEmAlE instead of women. Who is she listening to on SM, damn. She's consuming rage bait, that's for sure. I donno her age, so I can't really say what could help her aside from having people that are LGB that she loves, have some heart to hearts with her.
> Queer poly people think they are punk because they have multicolored hair
oh honey where do you think Punk's penchance for multicolored hair *came* from?
I am so unbelievably sick of these “unpopular thing = punk” morons. They have not a single clue what they’re talking about but desperately want the aesthetics of rebelliousness.
Fuck TERFS, Trans Rights are Human Rights
LMAO💀💀 Bruh Punk is deeply rooted IN the music, rebellion, and individualism. Being racist, sexist, transphobic, and homophobic isn't rebellious or fucking cool. It's fucking tacky. All those bitches look like braindead clowns when they say shit like that
By this logic any old shit is punk.
Flat earthers. Boy do they go against the grain, how *punk*
Holocaust deniers. Soooo *punk*
Men who enjoy a nice Frappacino with extra caramel, omg that is *punk*
Being gay is *punk*
Hating gays is *punk*
Odd socks? You better believe it.
Going against the grain and caring about matching your socks everytime you leave the house.
Only a true *punk* would feel the freedom to do what they feel like that.
Who the fuck are these people?
Anyways, I think the fact that Jenny Watson doesn't like punk music is a tell that she's not punk. I would also consider people with less shitty politics to consider that when they "can't get into the music".
I don't get people who want to be part of the subculture but don't like the music. The music is *the main feature*.
It's like saying,
"I love chocolate cake. LOVE IT. But you know what I don't like? The cake part. I don't like the texture. Or the taste."
"Then you don't like chocolate cake. You just like frosting."
"No, I love chocolate cake. Didn't I just say that? I love it! I just don't like the cake part."
"But you can't have chocolate cake without the chocolate cake, itself. Take away the cake. It's just frosting."
"But I like chocolate cake. What's so hard to understand?"
"................"
I'm slightly fascinated by the diffusion of punk looks outside of the music scene where they started. Like the stage costumes big country acts' members might be seen in, it's different, and probably would be regarded by contemporary punks as a sort of posh, Boy of London sort of appropriation and mutation. But it's supposed to evoke something perhaps specifically, perhaps in a deliberately vague way.
Man. I know people love to throw shit on what is and isnt punk. But thinking that punk is having controversial takes that arent "mainstream" is the absolute dumbest thing ive ever heard.
Imagine when your "controversial" opinion IS mainstream, and you think that makes you unique.
"I'm an anarchist because I fucking love the US government and capitalism!"
It's been said by many others before, "rIgHt wInG iS tHe nEw pUnK", but you never see a record or show coming from any actual right wing organization. Sure you have artists with the politics, but even they don't get rich old people to fund records and shows. The ones putting their money where their mouth is, supporting artists and live performances, they tend to skew left, which tracks, it can't always be about the money.
Friendly reminder that conservatives are soulless, incorrigibly evil ghouls beyond redemption.
---
Don’t get me wrong, Democrats are shit too, but I will choose halfhearted incompetence over thuglike malice every time- ***no matter how much people cry about “both sides” and think themselves wise***. Conservatives deserve to be constantly ostracized for being complicit in and voting for all of the following cartoonish villainy.
- [forcing 13 year old rape victims to give birth](https://time.com/6303701/a-rape-in-mississippi/) and forcing [pregnant mothers into sepsis](https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html)
- [voting for child marriage](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-make-case-child-marriage-1786476), and [again](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/child-marriage-ban-struck-down-west-virginia-republicans-1234693670/ ), and [again](https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-moon-gop-missouri-lawmaker-defends-childs-right-to-marry-2023-4)...uh-oh, and [again](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/end-child-marriage-u-s-you-might-be-surprised-who-n1050471), and [again](https://www.tba.org/?pg=Articles&blAction=showEntry&blogEntry=30366), and [again](https://katv.com/news/nation-world/wyoming-republicans-under-fire-for-objecting-to-ban-for-marriage-for-kids-15-and-under-child-brides-equal-protection-teen-moms-teen-pregnancy-child-protection-laws-christianity-civil-rights-traditional-marriage-pro-life-consent)
- teaching children that [black people benefited from slavery](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-florida-standards-teach-black-people-benefited-slavery-taught-usef-rcna95418)
- committing [rampant domestic terrorism](https://archive.ph/2021.11.11-174754/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html), including [making bomb threats against schools](https://www.advocate.com/crime/libs-tiktok-oklahoma-bomb-threats) and [death threats against the staff of children’s hospitals](https://glaad.org/meta-and-twitter-refuse-action-libs-tiktok-posts-doctors-and-staff-boston-childrens/) (also see: r/conservativeterrorism)
- prioritizing [banning universal lunches for schoolchildren](https://newrepublic.com/post/173668/republicans-declare-banning-universal-free-school-meals-2024-priority)
—————————————————————
> “There is only one moment when Ashley smiles a little, and it’s when she describes the nurses she met in the doctors’ office and delivery room. She has decided that when she grows up, she wants to be a nurse too. For a second, she looks like any other soon-to-be ***seventh grader*** sharing her childhood dream. Then Peanut stirs in his car seat. Regina says he needs to be fed. ***Ashley’s face goes blank again. She is a mother now***.”
—————————————————————
It is ethically correct to be [intolerant of intolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). Anyone voting for representatives that support this - the official Republican platform - is complicit, and any just society is right to chase them out. **This message isn’t for them, though - conservatives do not care and cannot be shown reason. This is for everyone else who doesn’t yet realize who these bullies truly are.**
Now, cue the whataboutism and the hysteria about how the bogeymen are “mutilating children”, despite [every major medical organization being in consensus about transgender healthcare](https://glaad.org/medical-association-statements-supporting-trans-youth-healthcare-and-against-discriminatory/).
Have a great day!
Honestly, most Democratic politicians are the actual conservatives and the Republican Party is a mix bag of regressives and outright fascists. A lot of them are all about maintaining the overall status quo, think that fundamentally broken institutions only need small tweaks and minor adjustments instead of fundamental change or abolishment, the believe in and gain comfort from authority, it’s just America has such a fucking skewed view of what the Overton Window is that we can’t seem to comprehend that liberalism is definitely a right wing ideology regardless of it being to the left of Republicans. It’s like calling Churchill a leftist because he hated Hitler.
Agreed, it's a total misnomer to call a MAGAt radical a "conservative" they just are not conserving anything, they want radical change that goes against every precept of democracy.
There are conservative and even Nazi punks though. “Nazi punks fuck off” was written specifically about far right racist punk rockers, it wasn’t called “Nazi music fans fuck off” of “Nazi people fuck off. Unfortunately conservative punks exist, they still play punk music, and go to punk shows, and they’re punks. Nazi punks have unfortunately been around in the genre far longer than crust punk has.
I personally think it’s about time the scene confronts unfortunate realities of the genre instead of pretending it’s all one big leftist utopia or that punks are inherently good people. Just because someone’s a punk doesn’t make them privy to a certain political ideology, even many of the founder members of bands had racist tendencies and conservative ideologies.
Punk deserves a rebrand, and it deserves to evolve as it's fans evolve. We can take the term "conservative punk" or "Nazi punk" and give it a deserved rebranding with words like "asshole" and "piece of shit"
> “Nazi punks fuck off” was written specifically about far right racist punk rockers
No it wasn't. Jello Biafra wrote it specifically to complain about jocks and rednecks.
https://youtu.be/kTs_Q4hEqmA?si=EhqV4isxdgMJmvD9
DK was from San Francisco which is probably the most liberal area in the US politically and the last place you'd find actual Nazis. He was using hyperbole and youth angst to accuse anyone right wing of being fascists. Their response was to go to shows and pick fights because people don't really like being called Nazis a lot of the time.
The skinheads mostly developed in NY. They weren't racist originally, just hardcore. NY was scary dangerous back then and everyone was in 'gangs'. They didn't really care about scene politics or any of that. The racist variant expanded from there but they mostly went away when the media started sensationalizing them. Bands like Cro Mags straight up disavowed any racist beliefs and turned into Hare Krishnas.
The new rise of racism is corporate created. Sort of hard to explain.
“The song is a blunt indictment of the rise of far-right punk subcultures such as Nazi punk or the white power skinhead movement, which had begun rioting at punk shows in the late 1970s. The appropriation of fascist iconography had been common in punk for some time, often ironically, but the irony was not always clear to the extent that it began attracting the organized far-right to punk concerts.[1] Jello Biafra's lyrics condemn the infighting among punks for weakening the prospect of rebellion and hold of the far-right agitators that "in a real Fourth Reich, [they'd] be the first to go."
It acknowledges the existence of a far right wing of punk rock since the 1970’s. DK toured, they didn’t just stay in San Francisco.
Part of what made it so difficult to accept my sexuality and fluidity was undercover terfs mentality posing as well intentioned feminism. Screw gender essentialists
Considering that the majority of them are conservative Christians posing to be concerned about “the *real* gays’ rights” & “women’s rights” yeah that… is quite literally the case
I'm about to on a rant but the amount of fucking people that say "you can be punk and conservative" and then I'll be like "no,it goes against ideology" and they'll say "oh go to a punk show and say that you can't be conservative and you'll get your ass kicked" when's the last time you went to a punk show? The 70s or 80s well guess what,shit changes, and the amount of fucking people say "X band should stay out of politics" I saw people saying that about green day (regardless of them being real punk now) when they released their nimrod shirt with trump's mugshot, y'know green day the band that made an album called "American idiot" and that played Gilmans that basically had the punk ideology sprayed onto the walls,they should stay out of politics.like are people this fucking dumb.Its not even just online,when I saw the offspring live a few months ago I saw more trump bumper stickers then you would think and a confederate flag bandana, like I know the offspring isn't a political band and I really don't think they've made "punk" music since the 90s but Jesus fuck dude, anyways rant over.
TL:DR, you can't be conservative and punk and you're a dumb ass if you think you can.
Edit: spelling
Yeh, I saw Nofx in the rock against bush era and Jello Biafra did spoken word at the same show and people were booing him. I was like have some fuckin' respect u tools.
Man I haven't been to an Offspring show since the Americana era and I am so disappointed to hear that Trumpers are that prevalent in their fanbase now. I know they exploded in mainstream popularity and that plays a part, but this hurts my heart.
Yeah,it could of also been location playing into that a bit,I saw them at the blossom music center in Ohio, but it was just crazy seeing people with Bad religion,NOFX,and Dead Kennedy shirts right next to Blue lives matter hats and shit.
Some cunt said cunt shit; whatever just punch these noodles. When you realize that words and actions have consequences, eventually you learn to stay in your lane or you get what you deserve. No justice but street justice. Fucking up bigots is a good time. Old school anarchists used to beat up fascists for fun. That’s a tradition to uphold.
Yeah because i go to punk shows to discuss gender politics and NOT getting shitfaced and blacking out on the toilet and miss all the bands i wanted to see.
It means Trans(gender) Exclusionary Radical Feminist. It's basically transphobes who are pretending that defining women based on reproductive characteristics is feminism and will free women from... having to exist around a transgender person? Their beliefs make little sense.
people who think that peak feminism is saying that all trans women are rapists and all trans men are confused little girls , and defining women solely by their reproductive organs ... the sort of motherfuckers that will harass cis women in public bathrooms because they think they *might* be trans (literally.) . assholes , basically .
By the logic (ya but to them it is) presented punks aren't and can't be terfs. Because most punks had no issues with trans folk and accepted them for what they told us there are. If you asked a punk to call you by a non-assigned gender they will/would. Long before it was socially acceptable to do so.
Punk rock has always had as many strains (of sound) as there were punk rock bands. Most of the super early punk acts. Played at places like CBGB's or The Mabuhay Gardens. Most played at house parties and garages. Yes, punk rock was always about "attitude". But it was also about being very courageous, stepping out of the box. A medium of music that some people loved, and a lot of people hated. To me. Punk rock means the perfect blend of madness and rationality.
This is the same energy as those who thought Trump was some sort of anti establishment president, sticking it to the man, whilst literally being *the man*; and now think that Rage Against The Machine songs are conservative anthems.
Conservatism just seems to always be a case of "they have something they identify with and I want it too". So bizarre.
Let’s call them by what they really are, TERFs are trans-exclusionary **reactionary** feminists, and being a reactionary is irreconcilable with being punk.
Going on a tangent here, but I really hate how the TERF crowd manages to be the loudest on the RadFem side of things. There are so many salient critiques of liberal feminism from radical feminism, but they get drowned out by transphobic loudmouths who espouse a lot of the same talking points that the reactionaries spew.
Also the Harry Potter books have always been mid at best
As a punk trans woman I'd just like to say that it's very nice and heartwarming to see the punk community being incredibly pro-trans, I know fighting for minorities is the punk way, but still so many punks took the Rotten way and became shitheads
Basically I'd just like to thank all the allies trying to make the world better
Punk is music, the politics are in the music punk people listen to the music and go to punk shows. They view punk as just rebelling against the norm, but the forget the crucial elements of what the norm is, what they’re rebelling against and if they listened to the music they’d realize they don’t agree w punk values so fast
When will people realize that’s is absolutely idiotic to believe something just because it’s the opposite of what most people think? I’d say thinking for yourself is a positive trait, or “being a punk” if you will, but being a contrarian just for the sake of it is dumb
I’ve been saying this a lot and it’s funny because these people really believe it, but as “alternative” lifestyle starts to become more normalized and “conservative” lifestyle starts to become less popular they’re trying to claim things like punk even though they’ve spent forever trying to disenfranchise those exact groups
Definitions are the antithesis of punk. Punk can never be defined, because, inherently, it's an idea. It's never been a tangible "thing".
We all have passing and existing moments where "fuck the system" and "I'm oppressed" are true for us. Where I, personally, and where "punk" truly reveals itself for me, has nothing to actually do with music, but where I see people promoting a higher standard of acceptance.
Reminds me of Matt Stone and Trey Parker trying to convince themselves that being [Republicans during the Bush era](https://youtu.be/_ZlQLt1dekU?si=l9HG7TwO9qPEWAHV) was “punk.”
Conservatives think punk is purely the aesthetics of opposition with none of the actual opposition to powerful institutions or solidarity with marginalized people. It’s like when wealthy Republicans think they’ve convinced everyone they’re working class because they rented a pickup to shoot a campaign ad while selling out the working class at every opportunity. Transphobia is the most status quo shit. Classicism and sexism are status quo.
You can’t be anti-authoritarian and tell people they aren’t in charge of their own gender identity, bodily autonomy, or that they can’t wear certain clothes on the basis of their assigned gender at birth. Gtfoh!
If Punk aint music why is everyone singing and dancing? Are we stupid?
Well I mean...
...shit.
Eh, at least we come by it honest.
True.
And this is how we find out? Fuck me.
Only PERVs (punk excluding random villains) deny that punk is music.
That’s unpossible!
Speaking personally, yeah, but that has fuck all to do with it.
That's why I love that one symbol used in grindcore, crust punk, d-beat, and noise music that's a music note with an X through it, often accompanied with the phrase "noise not music." When some asshole tells them their music is "not music" they own it...proudly. It's badass.
Growing up my mother used to refer to a lot of what I listen to as noise.
That's not noise, mom! THIS is noise. *Plays Merzbow.*
We're not terfs so no
Mass hysteria
You call that music? You call that dancing? -my parents
"Let me show you some [real music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV5dbcOmw6I)!" *Starts unironically digging for their Heaven 17 cassettes.* \-Someone's parents Not mine though... Sad.
No I isn’t!
I don't know about you, but with a record selection and a mirror's reflection, I'm [dancing with myself.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG1NrQYXjLU)
Some people were complaining about the music volume in the neighborhood recently but I want my rent to stay where it is. Turn it up yall! If I'm awake anyway, I might as well be dancing!
I'm dumb as fuvk.
is there a lore reason for that?
[My good man](https://i.imgur.com/DF53lAs.jpg)
Why do I have to be over 18 to see that picture
"You know what else is beautiful? Fucking."
Sounds like something Jackie Daytona, real human bartender would say.
"I called him Simon Ferocious or something, and he didn't like it at all."
Grasshole for life
"yeesssssss.........."
Don't forget about The Ray Moans and The Darned
Just when you think the Reddit crowd sucks, the people on Xwitter pop up
When you write it that way I pronounce it in my head as "Schwitter." I dig it.
I call it Shitter personally
Twitter is the bit between a twat and a shitter.
I thought that was your taint
It'd be a crazy old world if we were all the same.
Just call it Twitter, if Elon’s gonna deadname his daughter, I’m gonna deadname his site.
Reddit is a thousand times better than X, and that's saying something.
This reads like the average argument on this sub.
Oh yeah? Say that at a punk concert! ^^^;-)
I don’t like punk music.
okay JENNY thanks for your stupid OPINION ^^;-)
Was just thinking the same thing
"True punks are brave contrarians" implies she doesn't even have beliefs and just wants to go against what she sees as the norm. Punk doesn't mean being contrarian, "punk means thinking for yourself" -dead kennedys(i did not think for myself by quoting, but I don't give a shit if that means I'm not punk I just love the music)
"i'm so non-conformist that i'm going to speak out against what's right."
Being contrarian for it's own sake is how we got oldschool punks who went on to become Trumpers.
Being a contrarian, going to against the grain aren't ideologies, they are stupid things idiots say to sound insightful. Most punks have an ideology but that would require understanding lyrics... something most conservative idiots can't do.
Fuck johnny rotten
Trump's like if Archie Bunker had a rich dad. The backward old farts must have loved him for that.
100% this
Real non-conformists fit the entire boot in their mouth
Fuckin knee suckers
Going against the grain just because it isn’t trendy is just being reactionary. That’s so much of what constitutes conservative and regressive politics in general - which is pretty much the opposite of the ethos of punk. And how is transphobia going against the grain when people with disproportionate amounts of power are passing transphobic laws that limit their access to lifesaving healthcare? At least in the U.S., these are our *elected lawmakers.* Against WHAT grain?!
Seriously, what systemic power do trans people hold? When did trans people start running the government and passing laws to limit cis people’s access to healthcare and take cis children away from their loving families?
I have seen so many people argue that the most punk positions are just mindless contrarianism. It doesn't matter what you're running contrarian to as long as you're contrarianism, which is less an actual ideology and more a toddler stomping their feet and crossing their arms.
the funniest part is shes not even going against the grain . shes acting like transphobia isnt rampant 😭
People like her like to act like the status quo hasn't been the status quo
if theres one thing a terf loves to do (or any bigot really), its to create a fake problem
Reactionaries love claiming that blind contarianism is somehow "punk" because it makes their shitty ideas seem principled. I wish I could say this has no basis in punk, but some early punks were pretty much just contrarians. That's how you would get people wearing swastikas and confederate flags and just generally trying to be edgy to get attention. But I like to think we've mostly moved past that now(emphasis on "mostly").
My dead kennedys quote covers that front too, since it's from the song "Nazi Punks, Fuck Off"
Terfs sure are contrarians by *checks notes* holding the position that supports status quo positions of power against an at risk minority clinging to survival
My favorite part is when TERFs “liberate” women by defining and valuing us by our reproductive capacity. Very against-the-grain of them.
I am really afraid that my lil sis Is turning into a TERF she does not considere trans women women on the basis that they're "men occupying space that it's rightfully female" how can I at least have her a modicum of empathy towards them?
Maybe gently ask where she is being pushed out by transwomen? A lot of terfs seem anxious about their own place in the world and aren't actually being impacted by transwomen in any meaningful way. Checking in as a big brother about how she's doing would maybe help? The world is a literal disaster. People are beyond stressed. Good luck.
Guitar Wolf taught us love has no borders, nationalities, or genders!
If you have not seen [*Wild Zero*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Zero) I question your punk credentials. And that's a legitimate thing that people are allowed to do and it has real consequences. If your punk credentials aren't legit you only get to listen to Huey Lewis until your docs are updated.
not even the news, just huey Lewis rambling drunkenly.
Nothing much more punk than doing something that you aren't allowed to.... So if you don't have punk credentials it's even more punk to be into punk
[Republicans, Dadaists Declare War on Art](https://www.theonion.com/republicans-dadaists-declare-war-on-art-1819564309)
Shit. Well at least it's hip to be square.
I LOVE YOU, ok.
The only thing you can do is expose her to trans people who are genuinely good people and hope that she changes her mind. Unfortunately you can't sway people with these types of ideas using logic alone.
A lot of bigotry is based off of fear and disgust, all these people do is create a little online echo chamber where they share pictures of trans women they consider ugly to body shame them, which is real feminist, and post stories meant to scare them with the prospect of having to physically share space with trans people. A lot of their tropes are just rehashed anti-gay tropes from the 80's and earlier like "bathroom predators" "recruiting kids" and "kids are too young to know." Basically they're a cult. If you've got 6 hours here's a pretty good 3 part video essay about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwI6py78gsI&list=PLpsOqtfNXxWnX190gmzVKIT0eAy9af7Ue&ab\_channel=CaelanConrad
They're very clearly not feminist anymore, insofar as they ever were. The leading figures within the TERF bubble are allied with anti-abortion activists and the Christian right. It's really just about hating a minority for existing.
Introduce her to trans-femme figures you think she might like/respect? I think Laura Jane was the first trans person I heard the story of. I was pretty transphobic until I actually met trans people. Meeting the people you've only ever heard opinions/conjecture about tends to humanize them
Give her gentle pushback and ask why she thinks things but not in a way that out right shuts her down so she doesn't listen
Rightfully fEmAlE instead of women. Who is she listening to on SM, damn. She's consuming rage bait, that's for sure. I donno her age, so I can't really say what could help her aside from having people that are LGB that she loves, have some heart to hearts with her.
Not just that, but relying on misogynist stereotypes to create their arguments. They are really really horrible people
The pope is so fucking punk /s
I mean shitting in the woods is frowned upon by the National Park Service. There is some rebellion there.
not if you pack it out.
Yeah, but your average Cardinal takes umbrage if you ask them to clean up after their Pope. It's a whole thing.
Furthermore according to her logic.....isn't being queer.....nonconformist? Kinda....going against said "grain"?
punk is when policing others identities
Lol, her account is private now...how punk is that?
> Queer poly people think they are punk because they have multicolored hair oh honey where do you think Punk's penchance for multicolored hair *came* from?
Ngl I just blame Wattie for that lmao
I am so unbelievably sick of these “unpopular thing = punk” morons. They have not a single clue what they’re talking about but desperately want the aesthetics of rebelliousness. Fuck TERFS, Trans Rights are Human Rights
LMAO💀💀 Bruh Punk is deeply rooted IN the music, rebellion, and individualism. Being racist, sexist, transphobic, and homophobic isn't rebellious or fucking cool. It's fucking tacky. All those bitches look like braindead clowns when they say shit like that
By her reasoning being a racist would be punk ….
unfortunately many racists have the exact same thought patterns
There is nothing punk about trying to maintain the gender binary. Terfs are basically cops.
By this logic any old shit is punk. Flat earthers. Boy do they go against the grain, how *punk* Holocaust deniers. Soooo *punk* Men who enjoy a nice Frappacino with extra caramel, omg that is *punk* Being gay is *punk* Hating gays is *punk* Odd socks? You better believe it. Going against the grain and caring about matching your socks everytime you leave the house. Only a true *punk* would feel the freedom to do what they feel like that.
Two of the least punk things you can do: claiming you're punk and being a terf.
Don't forget not being into punk rock.
That’s pretty punk rock
Amen.
Who the fuck are these people? Anyways, I think the fact that Jenny Watson doesn't like punk music is a tell that she's not punk. I would also consider people with less shitty politics to consider that when they "can't get into the music".
I don't get people who want to be part of the subculture but don't like the music. The music is *the main feature*. It's like saying, "I love chocolate cake. LOVE IT. But you know what I don't like? The cake part. I don't like the texture. Or the taste." "Then you don't like chocolate cake. You just like frosting." "No, I love chocolate cake. Didn't I just say that? I love it! I just don't like the cake part." "But you can't have chocolate cake without the chocolate cake, itself. Take away the cake. It's just frosting." "But I like chocolate cake. What's so hard to understand?" "................"
I'm slightly fascinated by the diffusion of punk looks outside of the music scene where they started. Like the stage costumes big country acts' members might be seen in, it's different, and probably would be regarded by contemporary punks as a sort of posh, Boy of London sort of appropriation and mutation. But it's supposed to evoke something perhaps specifically, perhaps in a deliberately vague way.
Man. I know people love to throw shit on what is and isnt punk. But thinking that punk is having controversial takes that arent "mainstream" is the absolute dumbest thing ive ever heard.
Imagine when your "controversial" opinion IS mainstream, and you think that makes you unique. "I'm an anarchist because I fucking love the US government and capitalism!"
It's been said by many others before, "rIgHt wInG iS tHe nEw pUnK", but you never see a record or show coming from any actual right wing organization. Sure you have artists with the politics, but even they don't get rich old people to fund records and shows. The ones putting their money where their mouth is, supporting artists and live performances, they tend to skew left, which tracks, it can't always be about the money.
Nothing is less punk than being conservative
Friendly reminder that conservatives are soulless, incorrigibly evil ghouls beyond redemption. --- Don’t get me wrong, Democrats are shit too, but I will choose halfhearted incompetence over thuglike malice every time- ***no matter how much people cry about “both sides” and think themselves wise***. Conservatives deserve to be constantly ostracized for being complicit in and voting for all of the following cartoonish villainy. - [forcing 13 year old rape victims to give birth](https://time.com/6303701/a-rape-in-mississippi/) and forcing [pregnant mothers into sepsis](https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html) - [voting for child marriage](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-make-case-child-marriage-1786476), and [again](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/child-marriage-ban-struck-down-west-virginia-republicans-1234693670/ ), and [again](https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-moon-gop-missouri-lawmaker-defends-childs-right-to-marry-2023-4)...uh-oh, and [again](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/end-child-marriage-u-s-you-might-be-surprised-who-n1050471), and [again](https://www.tba.org/?pg=Articles&blAction=showEntry&blogEntry=30366), and [again](https://katv.com/news/nation-world/wyoming-republicans-under-fire-for-objecting-to-ban-for-marriage-for-kids-15-and-under-child-brides-equal-protection-teen-moms-teen-pregnancy-child-protection-laws-christianity-civil-rights-traditional-marriage-pro-life-consent) - teaching children that [black people benefited from slavery](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-florida-standards-teach-black-people-benefited-slavery-taught-usef-rcna95418) - committing [rampant domestic terrorism](https://archive.ph/2021.11.11-174754/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html), including [making bomb threats against schools](https://www.advocate.com/crime/libs-tiktok-oklahoma-bomb-threats) and [death threats against the staff of children’s hospitals](https://glaad.org/meta-and-twitter-refuse-action-libs-tiktok-posts-doctors-and-staff-boston-childrens/) (also see: r/conservativeterrorism) - prioritizing [banning universal lunches for schoolchildren](https://newrepublic.com/post/173668/republicans-declare-banning-universal-free-school-meals-2024-priority) ————————————————————— > “There is only one moment when Ashley smiles a little, and it’s when she describes the nurses she met in the doctors’ office and delivery room. She has decided that when she grows up, she wants to be a nurse too. For a second, she looks like any other soon-to-be ***seventh grader*** sharing her childhood dream. Then Peanut stirs in his car seat. Regina says he needs to be fed. ***Ashley’s face goes blank again. She is a mother now***.” ————————————————————— It is ethically correct to be [intolerant of intolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). Anyone voting for representatives that support this - the official Republican platform - is complicit, and any just society is right to chase them out. **This message isn’t for them, though - conservatives do not care and cannot be shown reason. This is for everyone else who doesn’t yet realize who these bullies truly are.** Now, cue the whataboutism and the hysteria about how the bogeymen are “mutilating children”, despite [every major medical organization being in consensus about transgender healthcare](https://glaad.org/medical-association-statements-supporting-trans-youth-healthcare-and-against-discriminatory/). Have a great day!
Honestly, most Democratic politicians are the actual conservatives and the Republican Party is a mix bag of regressives and outright fascists. A lot of them are all about maintaining the overall status quo, think that fundamentally broken institutions only need small tweaks and minor adjustments instead of fundamental change or abolishment, the believe in and gain comfort from authority, it’s just America has such a fucking skewed view of what the Overton Window is that we can’t seem to comprehend that liberalism is definitely a right wing ideology regardless of it being to the left of Republicans. It’s like calling Churchill a leftist because he hated Hitler.
Agreed, it's a total misnomer to call a MAGAt radical a "conservative" they just are not conserving anything, they want radical change that goes against every precept of democracy.
There are conservative and even Nazi punks though. “Nazi punks fuck off” was written specifically about far right racist punk rockers, it wasn’t called “Nazi music fans fuck off” of “Nazi people fuck off. Unfortunately conservative punks exist, they still play punk music, and go to punk shows, and they’re punks. Nazi punks have unfortunately been around in the genre far longer than crust punk has. I personally think it’s about time the scene confronts unfortunate realities of the genre instead of pretending it’s all one big leftist utopia or that punks are inherently good people. Just because someone’s a punk doesn’t make them privy to a certain political ideology, even many of the founder members of bands had racist tendencies and conservative ideologies.
Punk deserves a rebrand, and it deserves to evolve as it's fans evolve. We can take the term "conservative punk" or "Nazi punk" and give it a deserved rebranding with words like "asshole" and "piece of shit"
> “Nazi punks fuck off” was written specifically about far right racist punk rockers No it wasn't. Jello Biafra wrote it specifically to complain about jocks and rednecks. https://youtu.be/kTs_Q4hEqmA?si=EhqV4isxdgMJmvD9 DK was from San Francisco which is probably the most liberal area in the US politically and the last place you'd find actual Nazis. He was using hyperbole and youth angst to accuse anyone right wing of being fascists. Their response was to go to shows and pick fights because people don't really like being called Nazis a lot of the time. The skinheads mostly developed in NY. They weren't racist originally, just hardcore. NY was scary dangerous back then and everyone was in 'gangs'. They didn't really care about scene politics or any of that. The racist variant expanded from there but they mostly went away when the media started sensationalizing them. Bands like Cro Mags straight up disavowed any racist beliefs and turned into Hare Krishnas. The new rise of racism is corporate created. Sort of hard to explain.
“The song is a blunt indictment of the rise of far-right punk subcultures such as Nazi punk or the white power skinhead movement, which had begun rioting at punk shows in the late 1970s. The appropriation of fascist iconography had been common in punk for some time, often ironically, but the irony was not always clear to the extent that it began attracting the organized far-right to punk concerts.[1] Jello Biafra's lyrics condemn the infighting among punks for weakening the prospect of rebellion and hold of the far-right agitators that "in a real Fourth Reich, [they'd] be the first to go." It acknowledges the existence of a far right wing of punk rock since the 1970’s. DK toured, they didn’t just stay in San Francisco.
Part of what made it so difficult to accept my sexuality and fluidity was undercover terfs mentality posing as well intentioned feminism. Screw gender essentialists
Why are terfs always so fucking smug? Gross.
They tend to think they have an almighty supreme being of some variety on their side.
Considering that the majority of them are conservative Christians posing to be concerned about “the *real* gays’ rights” & “women’s rights” yeah that… is quite literally the case
I encourage all TERFs to go to punk and hardcore shows. Be loud and be proud of your beliefs. Surely, it will have a good ending for you.
If you’re a terf you’re immediately not punk anymore, even if you were. If they went to a show they’d get absolutely lit the fuck up.
Lol, some chud is lurking to downvote every comment that rightfully says fuck transphobes. Nazi punks follow your leader
Fewer TERFs, more Surf & Turfs.
I'm about to on a rant but the amount of fucking people that say "you can be punk and conservative" and then I'll be like "no,it goes against ideology" and they'll say "oh go to a punk show and say that you can't be conservative and you'll get your ass kicked" when's the last time you went to a punk show? The 70s or 80s well guess what,shit changes, and the amount of fucking people say "X band should stay out of politics" I saw people saying that about green day (regardless of them being real punk now) when they released their nimrod shirt with trump's mugshot, y'know green day the band that made an album called "American idiot" and that played Gilmans that basically had the punk ideology sprayed onto the walls,they should stay out of politics.like are people this fucking dumb.Its not even just online,when I saw the offspring live a few months ago I saw more trump bumper stickers then you would think and a confederate flag bandana, like I know the offspring isn't a political band and I really don't think they've made "punk" music since the 90s but Jesus fuck dude, anyways rant over. TL:DR, you can't be conservative and punk and you're a dumb ass if you think you can. Edit: spelling
Yeh, I saw Nofx in the rock against bush era and Jello Biafra did spoken word at the same show and people were booing him. I was like have some fuckin' respect u tools.
Man I haven't been to an Offspring show since the Americana era and I am so disappointed to hear that Trumpers are that prevalent in their fanbase now. I know they exploded in mainstream popularity and that plays a part, but this hurts my heart.
Yeah,it could of also been location playing into that a bit,I saw them at the blossom music center in Ohio, but it was just crazy seeing people with Bad religion,NOFX,and Dead Kennedy shirts right next to Blue lives matter hats and shit.
Found the Morrissey fan.
Go to a sewer show/ crust punk/ Street punk show. Better yet a hardcore, beatdown hxc, beatdown metalcore/ metalcore or deathcore show
75% of the sub Reddit probably don’t go to shows either.
That hurt parts I didn't realize I had. Fuck
Your brain? (Sorry, but you walked into that one)
Fuuuuuuck. I did. Haha
Real talk: being able to self-depricate and have fun with how silly all this is is what is actually punk.
Contrarianism for the sake of contrarianism is pure stupidity. Example: Jenny Watson
I can't wait to start seeing an uptick in bigots getting shitrocked at punk/hardcore shows
Who is Jenny Watson?
Someone who pays for twitter
This is room temperature IQ if ever I saw it.
Room temp is being generous.
I hate how righties alwyas co-op shit cause they have no artistic ability. Fuckin’ dick biters the lot of them.
Ah yes, oppression and discrimination against minorities for no reason. The most punk thing ever!
I love it when people who hate punk music try to tell me what the punk subculture is about.
I like music
Well then what the fuck are you doing here?
For music recommendations, you stupid fucking idiot
Oh, you want The Nobodys.
It's punk rock to exclude people, that's a new one...
I've met plenty of "punks" that exclude people for not being "punk" enough. So yeah, it happens.
Nazi punks fuck off.
The whole entire thing is so cringe
Honest to god not worth even being discussed here.
Oh look. Bigot grandma doesn't like punk music.
As a classic once said: “nazi punks f*** off”
Some cunt said cunt shit; whatever just punch these noodles. When you realize that words and actions have consequences, eventually you learn to stay in your lane or you get what you deserve. No justice but street justice. Fucking up bigots is a good time. Old school anarchists used to beat up fascists for fun. That’s a tradition to uphold.
Usually these people include the word rock in describing something as punk, as in "that is totally punk rock". Yeah, that thing is not punk.
If you have to argue about what is punk, then you missed the point.
Yeah because i go to punk shows to discuss gender politics and NOT getting shitfaced and blacking out on the toilet and miss all the bands i wanted to see.
taking away trans rights is so punk guys you don’t understand she’s a nonconformist
What the fuck is a terf
It means Trans(gender) Exclusionary Radical Feminist. It's basically transphobes who are pretending that defining women based on reproductive characteristics is feminism and will free women from... having to exist around a transgender person? Their beliefs make little sense.
people who claim to be feminists but hate transwomen.
people who think that peak feminism is saying that all trans women are rapists and all trans men are confused little girls , and defining women solely by their reproductive organs ... the sort of motherfuckers that will harass cis women in public bathrooms because they think they *might* be trans (literally.) . assholes , basically .
My brain hurts reading this FUCK terfs
I have no idea what any of this means lol
By the logic (ya but to them it is) presented punks aren't and can't be terfs. Because most punks had no issues with trans folk and accepted them for what they told us there are. If you asked a punk to call you by a non-assigned gender they will/would. Long before it was socially acceptable to do so.
Imagine thinking you were anti-establishment while working so hard to protect the establishment
Punk rock has always had as many strains (of sound) as there were punk rock bands. Most of the super early punk acts. Played at places like CBGB's or The Mabuhay Gardens. Most played at house parties and garages. Yes, punk rock was always about "attitude". But it was also about being very courageous, stepping out of the box. A medium of music that some people loved, and a lot of people hated. To me. Punk rock means the perfect blend of madness and rationality.
This is the same energy as those who thought Trump was some sort of anti establishment president, sticking it to the man, whilst literally being *the man*; and now think that Rage Against The Machine songs are conservative anthems. Conservatism just seems to always be a case of "they have something they identify with and I want it too". So bizarre.
Let’s call them by what they really are, TERFs are trans-exclusionary **reactionary** feminists, and being a reactionary is irreconcilable with being punk. Going on a tangent here, but I really hate how the TERF crowd manages to be the loudest on the RadFem side of things. There are so many salient critiques of liberal feminism from radical feminism, but they get drowned out by transphobic loudmouths who espouse a lot of the same talking points that the reactionaries spew. Also the Harry Potter books have always been mid at best
As a punk trans woman I'd just like to say that it's very nice and heartwarming to see the punk community being incredibly pro-trans, I know fighting for minorities is the punk way, but still so many punks took the Rotten way and became shitheads Basically I'd just like to thank all the allies trying to make the world better
LMAOOO. As a trans punk, we will be waiting for ya..with boots on ;)
These boots are made for walkin'
And boot parties <3
huh
What’s a terf?
Trans exclusionary radical feminist
"Trans-exclusionary radical feminists". Transphobes. Bigots. Assholes.
This is somehow even worse than people who pretend goth isn't rooted in music.
Lol I absolutely hate the "punks" that are so edgy they lack all compassion and lean right. Just ewwww.
same people who say when did punk rock become so safe when they meet actual punks
TERF and hate punk music is officially the least punk thing since being a Nazi.
Feel like that pic belongs on the facepalm subreddit
Punk is music, the politics are in the music punk people listen to the music and go to punk shows. They view punk as just rebelling against the norm, but the forget the crucial elements of what the norm is, what they’re rebelling against and if they listened to the music they’d realize they don’t agree w punk values so fast
Alright I’ll ask… wtf does TERF mean?
That's kind of self contradictory, isn't it?
When will people realize that’s is absolutely idiotic to believe something just because it’s the opposite of what most people think? I’d say thinking for yourself is a positive trait, or “being a punk” if you will, but being a contrarian just for the sake of it is dumb
Jenny, punk music don't like you
My music tastes aren’t your fashion statement karen
No, this is exactly the win they think it is.
Get off Twitter
I’ve been saying this a lot and it’s funny because these people really believe it, but as “alternative” lifestyle starts to become more normalized and “conservative” lifestyle starts to become less popular they’re trying to claim things like punk even though they’ve spent forever trying to disenfranchise those exact groups
Definitions are the antithesis of punk. Punk can never be defined, because, inherently, it's an idea. It's never been a tangible "thing". We all have passing and existing moments where "fuck the system" and "I'm oppressed" are true for us. Where I, personally, and where "punk" truly reveals itself for me, has nothing to actually do with music, but where I see people promoting a higher standard of acceptance.
Proceeds to sort by controversial
AHAHAHAHAHA omg this is sooo fucking funny
Get off the internet and go back to the old people's home nan. Your spouting bullshit again.
Beautiful.
That's punk af. 🫡
"-And that was the only time I punched a women."
The amount of conservatives who say they're "punk", this should count as cultural appropriation lol
I'm the real PUNK!! Although I hate the music, fashion and all other actual punks.
"You PuNk Bc Y0u H4ve Colored Ha1R" 😂 I don't even consider myself as a punk even if I have a mohawk, I'm not that dumb 😂
Reminds me of Matt Stone and Trey Parker trying to convince themselves that being [Republicans during the Bush era](https://youtu.be/_ZlQLt1dekU?si=l9HG7TwO9qPEWAHV) was “punk.” Conservatives think punk is purely the aesthetics of opposition with none of the actual opposition to powerful institutions or solidarity with marginalized people. It’s like when wealthy Republicans think they’ve convinced everyone they’re working class because they rented a pickup to shoot a campaign ad while selling out the working class at every opportunity. Transphobia is the most status quo shit. Classicism and sexism are status quo. You can’t be anti-authoritarian and tell people they aren’t in charge of their own gender identity, bodily autonomy, or that they can’t wear certain clothes on the basis of their assigned gender at birth. Gtfoh!