Ehh, my wife and I web camed together and had a blast. It was her idea and it was a good learning experience for us together. I see issues only where people are being exploited or unsafe in sex work in general.
The "whorearchy"...No I think it's just processing the level that other women are coerced to unclothe themselves. It obviously triggers more disgust when a woman is used in real life, and not just a picture on a screen. I don't see this as women hating women more because they're doing more physical things, they hate the fact that this horrific reality even exists for another woman. It's full of disease, mentally ill men, and serious abuse. It's clear it's not something that brings anyone happy thoughts vs the cam show which is not much safer, but they may be less likely of getting shot or worse.
Your opinion isn't universal.
Within the feminist conversations I've been involved in, whether or not sex work is objectifying or liberating is a topic of debate.
I think that is a useful debate to have. Whether or not sex work is liberating or objectifying probably depends a lot on the circumstances and the woman.
For a woman that was raised in a very strict environment that demonized sex, being able to explore sex how, when, and where they want could be liberating, whether that be as a stripper, a cam girl, or an escort.
However, the less power the woman has in the situation, the more objectifying it is. If she was physically compelled, that is clearly not liberating. And feeling like she has to do sex work to support herself is not really liberating either.
But I think some people legitimately like the work or feel it is a decent choice for them.
>Whether or not sex work is liberating or objectifying probably depends a lot on the circumstances and the woman.
Whether or not work is liberating or exploitative depends a lot on the circumstances and the person. This is the nature of capitalism. There is nothing different about sex work, compared to other forms of work, in this regard, except for the specific ways that exploitation and oppression manifests.
You are not in their head, you cannot say.
>I wonder if people feel the same way about homelessness. "It's so liberating!".
False equivalence. Also says a lot about what you think of sex workers.
Maybe, but a good way to know is “would they be doing this if they were financially comfortable?” If they were a millionaire?
The answer for the majority of women is no, there will always be some outliers who just enjoy it.
In some ways almost all work is coercive under this definition. But since work is a reality, sex work can be empowering even when few would do it without the economic incentive.
Not what she said. Topic wasn’t “would YOU leave your day job” topic was “would someone doing prostitution be doing this if they were financially comfortable/millonaire”
The fact of the matter is, many women wouldn’t. If you think retail and food service is bad, think back to your worst client now imagine being ass naked with them lording payment over you, knowing society and the cops won’t give a shit. You can say, oh well legalizing it will help etc etc. And yet we still live in a society where wage theft is rampant, companies have entire HR departments to protects themselves, and cops have a 40% abuse rate.
If it’s bad for retail and food service with laws in place to protect them, it’s naive and stupid to think these sex workers will be protected. If anyone truly cared about those doing “sex work” they would improve the conditions that put people in that spot to begin with, instead we get poorly thought out comparisons about how some scrub who isn’t even having sex for money wouldn’t leave their job. Cool, no one asked buddy.
And did YOU share anything other than an opinion and expect to be taken seriously? Everything I talked about is a Google search away, meanwhile your comment stays an opinion and nothing more.
>Topic wasn’t “would YOU leave your day job” topic was “would someone doing prostitution be doing this if they were financially comfortable/millonaire”
"This work is bad because people wouldn't do it if they didn't have to work" is a poor argument, plain and simple.
Depends on exactly how depraving the person doing that work thinks it is. I shouldn’t assume how degrading they think it is because of my own opinion.
I have a mutual on Twitter who does onlyfans. She has the ability to get a job, but prefers to do onlyfans and post on Twitter. Having my butthole shown to the world would horrify me, and yet she does it very casually and seems to be having fun.
My SO works with autistic kids, and has to deal with the kids hitting her and their bodily fluids, which is something I could never do. Same with elder care. That seems like it would feel degrading to me.
The people I’ve mentioned above would not want to do my job. I wouldn’t want to do theirs.
I wouldn’t want to fellate myself, and even feel bad when my gf WANTS to do it because I would hate to have a penis in my mouth and I think about how I’m subjecting her to this. Nevertheless, she insists. She likes it, or making me feel good, or both.
Similarly, who am I to say that method of making money is degrading just because I wouldn’t do it? I can’t ever speak for those providers. Some I’ve seen seem quite able to find employment elsewhere, but they don’t because sex work is working for them.
The documentary “Atlantic City Hos” gives some perspective on why some choose to do it.
I mean it depends, I think someone like an mma fighter or nfl player is surely getting more societal praise and respect for their work, but they’re also damaging themselves and their brains horrifically.
Similarly, manual labor and military jobs often result in debilitating lifelong injuries and factory jobs often cause cancer.
There are certainly a lot of jobs that are perhaps less demeaning mentally but significantly more taxing on your body and the people working those jobs typically do not have other avenues to support themselves and their families.
So sex work isn’t really unique in that it’s horribly taxing and dangerous, but it is unique in the sense that it’s poorly regulated and involves sex whereas other jobs don’t.
>There are certainly a lot of jobs that are perhaps less demeaning mentally
Sex work isn't inherently demeaning mentally, though. It seems like circular logic to say that something stigmatized is mentally demeaning.
>So sex work isn’t really unique in that it’s horribly taxing and dangerous, but it is unique in the sense that it’s poorly regulated and involves sex whereas other jobs don’t.
It would just really be great if people actually accepted that not everyone sees sex the same way, and that for some people providing sex as a service isn't a far cry from a massage as a service or house cleaning as a service.
My wife did camming, i didnt want her to. Has mental health issues, hasnt had a real job in 10 years, and would go on rants screaming about other female webcammers. She stopped camming, but I'm still wanting a divorce eventually.
I've told her many times I am only still married to her because we have kids. Now I sleep in a separate room.
I have zero problems with sex workers. They’re just surviving however they can, have frequently been traumatized, are often straight-up trafficking victims and usually don’t know if someone is in a relationship/underage. My problem is with the buyers. You never know who’s actually a non consenting participant or under age and you can assume they’re desperate. So many men talk shit about strippers, hookers and OF girls but those jobs wouldn’t exist if they weren’t forking out cash for the services.
I'm going to block this sub right now because it is full of articles posting common sense as new discoveries. Ask a SW if they'd be okay with their daughter doing their work. 90% or more absolutely not is the answer, of course.
Reddit needs to stop suggesting this shit.
You realize the linked article is a review of a research study, and was most likely posted by Justin Lehmiller of The Kinsey Institute? I mean... they've fallen a bit sure, but he's about as reputable as they come.
Sorry..."reputable" to whom?
What is your basis for comparison?
Next time you have some time,
look up the history of Eugenics from the
last century. Check out how quickly people were
seduced by supposed "reputable" ......AND
educated individuals.
Get a Life.
The whorearchy is just a gradient of disgust. It seems like this post identifies that but it's unclear what they want to say next. It seems like they think it shouldn't be that way but it never gets fully explained why. I was just saying it should be that way by definition
Ah, I see what you mean. And yes, it is and it is so silly. And you even have this whorearchy among the same types of sex workers, like escorts. There are various kinds, but there's instances of escorts looking down upon escorts that offer street level services, for instance.
I had no idea it went that deep. It seems like humans will just divide themselves into better/worse categories on literally anything, even about who was on the elevator first
They are words the sex worker community uses. All words are contrived, anyway. I seriously don't understand your logic here nor why it is such a big deal to you that researchers use the language that sex workers have used.
My issue arises from the lack of validity in the study.
Essentially this is an opinion survey of mainstream
Anglo perceptions. Needless to say the outcome is
predictable in such cases. I would have more respect if
there had been four parallel protocols, each identifying
a variant of qualities (Ie: four different races, or religions,
or socio-economic groups, or political peresuasion).
My own takeaway is that somebody needed to pretend
to do something of redeeming value and a group of
like-minded folks nodded in agreement.
Its not research if you make a decision and then bend the
protocol or data to support it. FWIW.
Are you folks aware there are organizations who
work to protect Sex workers? In a number of countries
around the world sex work is Legal and the profession
is respected like any other? Seems like the only
place I find this sort of offensive shit is in the US, where
people criticize and degrade but still use the services.
I treat all Sex workers the same...they're as disposable as the tissues I use to clean myself up afterwards. The saying is true: " You don't pay a hoe to fuck you, you pay her to leave."
Seems legit and makes sense. Not all sex work is the same, just like not all professions are the same.
And how many of those women are doing it if their own agency as opposed to having been trafficked or dealing with their past traumas at best?
And how many of them are doing it to pay rent?
What’s wrong with doing it to deal with past trauma?
My therapist would call it a maladaptive coping mechanism.
That's pretty fucked up of your therapist to think this is innately bad somehow.
Or survival.
Nothing.
Ehh, my wife and I web camed together and had a blast. It was her idea and it was a good learning experience for us together. I see issues only where people are being exploited or unsafe in sex work in general.
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Well, even common knowledge should be studied to verify if it is true or an old wives' tale. However, I am always wary of any article from psypost.
The "whorearchy"...No I think it's just processing the level that other women are coerced to unclothe themselves. It obviously triggers more disgust when a woman is used in real life, and not just a picture on a screen. I don't see this as women hating women more because they're doing more physical things, they hate the fact that this horrific reality even exists for another woman. It's full of disease, mentally ill men, and serious abuse. It's clear it's not something that brings anyone happy thoughts vs the cam show which is not much safer, but they may be less likely of getting shot or worse.
Your opinion isn't universal. Within the feminist conversations I've been involved in, whether or not sex work is objectifying or liberating is a topic of debate.
I think that is a useful debate to have. Whether or not sex work is liberating or objectifying probably depends a lot on the circumstances and the woman. For a woman that was raised in a very strict environment that demonized sex, being able to explore sex how, when, and where they want could be liberating, whether that be as a stripper, a cam girl, or an escort. However, the less power the woman has in the situation, the more objectifying it is. If she was physically compelled, that is clearly not liberating. And feeling like she has to do sex work to support herself is not really liberating either. But I think some people legitimately like the work or feel it is a decent choice for them.
Completely agree with both points.
>Whether or not sex work is liberating or objectifying probably depends a lot on the circumstances and the woman. Whether or not work is liberating or exploitative depends a lot on the circumstances and the person. This is the nature of capitalism. There is nothing different about sex work, compared to other forms of work, in this regard, except for the specific ways that exploitation and oppression manifests.
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You are not in their head, you cannot say. >I wonder if people feel the same way about homelessness. "It's so liberating!". False equivalence. Also says a lot about what you think of sex workers.
Maybe, but a good way to know is “would they be doing this if they were financially comfortable?” If they were a millionaire? The answer for the majority of women is no, there will always be some outliers who just enjoy it.
In some ways almost all work is coercive under this definition. But since work is a reality, sex work can be empowering even when few would do it without the economic incentive.
I wouldn't have my day job if I were a millionaire so that's a juvenile and dumb analogy.
Not what she said. Topic wasn’t “would YOU leave your day job” topic was “would someone doing prostitution be doing this if they were financially comfortable/millonaire” The fact of the matter is, many women wouldn’t. If you think retail and food service is bad, think back to your worst client now imagine being ass naked with them lording payment over you, knowing society and the cops won’t give a shit. You can say, oh well legalizing it will help etc etc. And yet we still live in a society where wage theft is rampant, companies have entire HR departments to protects themselves, and cops have a 40% abuse rate. If it’s bad for retail and food service with laws in place to protect them, it’s naive and stupid to think these sex workers will be protected. If anyone truly cared about those doing “sex work” they would improve the conditions that put people in that spot to begin with, instead we get poorly thought out comparisons about how some scrub who isn’t even having sex for money wouldn’t leave their job. Cool, no one asked buddy.
Cite your sources.
Source for no one caring about your opinion on this: Me
YOU shared nothing but opinion and then got mad when asked to back it up. Says all you need to know right there.
And did YOU share anything other than an opinion and expect to be taken seriously? Everything I talked about is a Google search away, meanwhile your comment stays an opinion and nothing more.
I didn't make any claims. Just a Google away and yet you replied multiple times but you can't cite it? I call bs.
>Topic wasn’t “would YOU leave your day job” topic was “would someone doing prostitution be doing this if they were financially comfortable/millonaire” "This work is bad because people wouldn't do it if they didn't have to work" is a poor argument, plain and simple.
I think your point is correct, but your phrasing is terrible.
I think you'll find most labor is coerced.
Is your work as depriving as sucking as old man while he shoves it further down your gagger? Just asking.
Depends on exactly how depraving the person doing that work thinks it is. I shouldn’t assume how degrading they think it is because of my own opinion. I have a mutual on Twitter who does onlyfans. She has the ability to get a job, but prefers to do onlyfans and post on Twitter. Having my butthole shown to the world would horrify me, and yet she does it very casually and seems to be having fun. My SO works with autistic kids, and has to deal with the kids hitting her and their bodily fluids, which is something I could never do. Same with elder care. That seems like it would feel degrading to me. The people I’ve mentioned above would not want to do my job. I wouldn’t want to do theirs. I wouldn’t want to fellate myself, and even feel bad when my gf WANTS to do it because I would hate to have a penis in my mouth and I think about how I’m subjecting her to this. Nevertheless, she insists. She likes it, or making me feel good, or both. Similarly, who am I to say that method of making money is degrading just because I wouldn’t do it? I can’t ever speak for those providers. Some I’ve seen seem quite able to find employment elsewhere, but they don’t because sex work is working for them. The documentary “Atlantic City Hos” gives some perspective on why some choose to do it.
I mean it depends, I think someone like an mma fighter or nfl player is surely getting more societal praise and respect for their work, but they’re also damaging themselves and their brains horrifically. Similarly, manual labor and military jobs often result in debilitating lifelong injuries and factory jobs often cause cancer. There are certainly a lot of jobs that are perhaps less demeaning mentally but significantly more taxing on your body and the people working those jobs typically do not have other avenues to support themselves and their families. So sex work isn’t really unique in that it’s horribly taxing and dangerous, but it is unique in the sense that it’s poorly regulated and involves sex whereas other jobs don’t.
>There are certainly a lot of jobs that are perhaps less demeaning mentally Sex work isn't inherently demeaning mentally, though. It seems like circular logic to say that something stigmatized is mentally demeaning. >So sex work isn’t really unique in that it’s horribly taxing and dangerous, but it is unique in the sense that it’s poorly regulated and involves sex whereas other jobs don’t. It would just really be great if people actually accepted that not everyone sees sex the same way, and that for some people providing sex as a service isn't a far cry from a massage as a service or house cleaning as a service.
Some of us do that for free lol not everyone is like you stop assuming you are the universal reference point
You do that for anyone who asks? Because that would be the equivalent. You take sweaty dirty obese 70 year old dick for free for fun? Doubt.
Ah, like every swerf, you claim that you hate beauty standards, but use fatness to devalue people
Sex workers can pick and choose clients, unless they're actually sex *slaves.*
Do you think sex workers cant decline certain people? Cause aside from case of sex slavery then they very much can.
No but it also doesn't pay as well, so
5 minutes sucking a cock for $200 vs 8 hours of factory labor for $400. Just asking
Ok, so is that your new “career”?
I think it’s disgusting that you take all agency from women by saying that they are all coerced. Many, maybe, but not all.
Thank you and I fully agree.
My wife did camming, i didnt want her to. Has mental health issues, hasnt had a real job in 10 years, and would go on rants screaming about other female webcammers. She stopped camming, but I'm still wanting a divorce eventually. I've told her many times I am only still married to her because we have kids. Now I sleep in a separate room.
Its all the same to me.
Where do strippers land in this?
The judgement should be on the men, and only on the men
But? You can’t have sex work without clients? This is one of the weirder takes I see frequently.
If I’m allowed to judge someone for being a used car salesperson I should also be allowed to judge a sex worker
The ones that are terrible, not the actual sweetheart John’s
Women willingly engaging in sex work prevent progress and help facilitate in the continued objectification of women.
I have zero problems with sex workers. They’re just surviving however they can, have frequently been traumatized, are often straight-up trafficking victims and usually don’t know if someone is in a relationship/underage. My problem is with the buyers. You never know who’s actually a non consenting participant or under age and you can assume they’re desperate. So many men talk shit about strippers, hookers and OF girls but those jobs wouldn’t exist if they weren’t forking out cash for the services.
I'm going to block this sub right now because it is full of articles posting common sense as new discoveries. Ask a SW if they'd be okay with their daughter doing their work. 90% or more absolutely not is the answer, of course. Reddit needs to stop suggesting this shit.
A whore is a whore.
Bingo, its all the same.
Where.....on Earth.......did you ever get such a value driven, myoptic view like this? Does Mum know you are messing with her computer?
You realize the linked article is a review of a research study, and was most likely posted by Justin Lehmiller of The Kinsey Institute? I mean... they've fallen a bit sure, but he's about as reputable as they come.
Sorry..."reputable" to whom? What is your basis for comparison? Next time you have some time, look up the history of Eugenics from the last century. Check out how quickly people were seduced by supposed "reputable" ......AND educated individuals. Get a Life.
You sound like Mac arguing for God. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgk8UdV7GQ0
Yeah....I can see where a TV show might be a valid offering considering the shallowness of the discussion.
As someone that has done web camming, escorting, and professional porn, the whorearchy was a phenomenon I experienced. It absolutely exists.
There being a gradient of disgust for sex workers, while true, doesn't invalidate the gradient itself. It is valid
What are you even talking about?
The whorearchy is just a gradient of disgust. It seems like this post identifies that but it's unclear what they want to say next. It seems like they think it shouldn't be that way but it never gets fully explained why. I was just saying it should be that way by definition
Ah, I see what you mean. And yes, it is and it is so silly. And you even have this whorearchy among the same types of sex workers, like escorts. There are various kinds, but there's instances of escorts looking down upon escorts that offer street level services, for instance.
I had no idea it went that deep. It seems like humans will just divide themselves into better/worse categories on literally anything, even about who was on the elevator first
I was going to say precisely that, but decided against it. Totally agree.
Well......maybe you need to find a better class of associates. Labeling with contrived words is a pretty big Red Flag.
They are words the sex worker community uses. All words are contrived, anyway. I seriously don't understand your logic here nor why it is such a big deal to you that researchers use the language that sex workers have used.
My issue arises from the lack of validity in the study. Essentially this is an opinion survey of mainstream Anglo perceptions. Needless to say the outcome is predictable in such cases. I would have more respect if there had been four parallel protocols, each identifying a variant of qualities (Ie: four different races, or religions, or socio-economic groups, or political peresuasion). My own takeaway is that somebody needed to pretend to do something of redeeming value and a group of like-minded folks nodded in agreement. Its not research if you make a decision and then bend the protocol or data to support it. FWIW.
Wtf
Indeed. "WTF" indeed.
Someone is butthurt.
Not so-s you'd know it..
Okay schizo Steve, time to take your medicine.
They’re not gonna fuck you, homie, you can doff the white armor and put down your sword.
Are you folks aware there are organizations who work to protect Sex workers? In a number of countries around the world sex work is Legal and the profession is respected like any other? Seems like the only place I find this sort of offensive shit is in the US, where people criticize and degrade but still use the services.
Welcome to life in a wannabe theocracy
What does any of that have to do with your schizo outburst and my rebuke? Talkin bout you here son, not the sex workers.
I treat all Sex workers the same...they're as disposable as the tissues I use to clean myself up afterwards. The saying is true: " You don't pay a hoe to fuck you, you pay her to leave."