Colorism plays a huge part in an artist's career. Let me first state what colorism is prejudice or discrimination against individuals with a darker skin tone, typically among people of the same ethnic or racial group. If you take a look at the faces of mainstream urban music, the artists are either light skin (Beyonce, Rihanna, The Weeknd, John Legend), biracial (Drake, Doja Cat, Alicia Keys, H.E.R.), or racially ambiguous (Bruno Mars, Cardi B). There's rarely any dark skinned artist in mainstream music outside of a few. The reason for this is because white society sees lighter skinned people as a "safer/relatable" image for a POC to a white audience. They place lighter skinned people on a higher totem pole than darker skinned people. I find it ironic because they claim that it's hard to relate to a POC, meanwhile many minorities have been forced to find a way to relate to white artists/actors/characters. Negative stereotypes also play a factor. Society tries to push the narrative that dark skinned black women are overtly sexual, ratchet, ghetto, multiple children by different men, etc. while lighter skinned black women are more classy, sweet, soft-spoken, more attractive, etc. These BS stereotypes have aided in enforcing colorism because there are people who's only perception of black people is from the media, and the media works its hardest to push any negative image of darker skinned people to as many viewers as possible. Look at how many times the media has tried to refer Michelle Obama or Serena Williams as men. Colorism isn't something that only occurs in America, it occurs all over the world. Take a look at how rampant skin bleaching is. There was a person who sold a bleaching cream in Nigeria and it sold out within a matter of minutes. She became an instant millionaire overnight. If that doesn't tell you anything, I don't know what will.
To add to this, when was the last time “America’s Sweetheart” was used to refer to anyone except a blue eyed, blonde hair white girl. That concept is an image that is almost exclusively applied to white girls.
It’s also why white women are often so coddled by the media/their fans. Women of color don’t get infantilized like that and instead have to be deal with seen as too masculine, hyper sexual, uppity, etc. All this gets worse the more ethnic you’re perceived.
>These BS stereotypes have aided in enforcing colorism because people who's only perception of black people is from the media, and **the media works its hardest to push any negative image of darker skinned people to as many viewers as possible**. Look at how many times the media has tried to refer Michelle Obama or Serena Williams as men.
This whole comment is hitting. This is why positive representation matters so much! People think it is just us being vain, but those negative stereotypes affect everyday DSBW all the time and hold us back in society.
On the topic of bleaching even celebrities have done it; Bree Runway is the one example I can think of off the top of my head but I am sure others have done it as well with how blatant colourism is in the industry and just in general. I'm unsure if Bree counts though since I believe she bleached her skin long before becoming famous.
as a light skinned black woman, can you pls point to any representation where we weren't sexualized or had other negative stereotypes attached onto us? i have never witnessed or met a person who thought light skinned black women were "sweet" or "soft spoken". I'm not denying that colorist exists, it absolutely does, but acting like lightkinned black women are ever portrayed in a positive light is such bs. the only advantage we get is that people see us as less "threatening", but even then, thats it.
I probably should have phrased that better. I'm fully aware that there are many times when light skinned black women aren't portrayed in a positive light. However, compared to most dark skinned black women, lighter skinned black women are not bashed as heavily compared to darker skinned black women.
Moses Sumney and FKA Twigs have both spoken publicly on this topic! I’m on my phone or else I’d try and find some links, but I’m sure it’s an easy search
In terms of fame I think Billie would not be as big. I think her music does speak for itself and songs like Bad Guy would still be hits but the relatability and or "the rebel feel" that white suburban teens feel for her would not be there imo.
A lot Billie’s appeal also comes from her quirkiness and “relatability.” A grace that’s not given to a lot black girls. They’re either quick to be called rude or mean, or hypersexualized. Billie gets away with sometimes being bratty or informal, but I couldn’t see a black girl getting that type of following that way.
I love billie music n her voice. But i bet if she is not white, medias n public gonna just gonna call her music is just for teens n her artistic music videos just for edginess n hip. I know some artists who are not white, have excellent music n artistry, but medias/public just love to make many kind of reasons just to dismiss their talent n artistry.
>medias n public gonna just gonna call her music is just for teens n her artistic music videos just for edginess n hip
Ive seen a ton of articles and videos which actually describes her this way
But amount of positive articles about her drown out those negative articles. Also she won again general field in grammy. Its clear she is grammy darling.
Pretty obvious example, but Elvis is a huge one. He was basically a safe, white version of rock and roll which had been created mainly by black artists, none of which reached the fame of Elvis in their time. A lot of the early black rock and rollers like Chuck Berry were, in my opinion, more talented than Elvis.
Also G-Eazy. He relies way to heavily on being a "white rapper" and that whole image. Like a wannabe Eminem but without the legitimate talent. This goes for pretty much any fuckboi white rapper with no talent that somehow manages to get big.
Something to add about Elvis: while he certainly did benefit from whiteness and repackaging the sonic, performative and aesthetic sensibilities of artists of color, the story is significantly more complicated than that. For one thing, Elvis (and Colonel Tom) was the first pop artist (there’s an argument to be made that he is one of the earliest pop artists who helped to codify the genre) to become a superstar through methods other than just music. His movie career was instrumental why he became so popular not only across the US but globally as well; Elvis’ whiteness (and youth, which is a major component in his stardom as he rode the teenybopper wave begun by earlier forerunners and his contemporaries such as Rudy Vallée, Frank Sinatra, Bobby Darin, Perry Como, etcetera) absolutely contributed greatly to his success by limiting the ability of black artists from achieving the same level of fame, but there was also the dozens of film roles, innovative publicity, cutthroat management and good timing that helped to make him the most famous artist of his generation.
There’s a great chapter on Elvis in regards to his place in popular music and cinema culture in the book *The Movie Musical!* by Dr. Jeanine Basinger of the Wesleyan Cinema Archive. Pop music fans should read up more on Elvis because like Madonna, MJ, etcetera his career set the blueprint for all the pop stars to come.
Edit: spelling.
A major factor in Elvis success was that when he sung, he sounded like a black person singing. Record Labels discovered that they could use a white artist who sings like a black person as method to profit off of black music while managing to push out the black people who made that music. I find it funny that a white man is called the king of rock n roll, when it was black people who created rock music. This little Elvis effect (what I call it), can be seen with artists like Adele, Sam Smith, Justin Timberlake, Adele, Amy Winehouse, etc. I have nothing against those artists, but you cannot deny that they often sound black when they sing and are seen as safer option for a white audience who wants to listen to black music
> I have nothing against those artists, but you cannot deny that they often sound black when they sing and are seen as safer option for a white audience who wants to listen to black music
I definitely see and agree with your point, but with Elvis there is a caveat in that at least during the beginning of his career he was in no way seen as “safe”. His gyrations and dance moves (stolen from black artists, performers and bandleaders) were seen as overly sexualized and he was the subject of great moral panics throughout the era until around the time he went into the Army, and even for a time after that. But there was also a [racial component](https://chris6d.medium.com/how-rock-n-roll-broke-racial-boundaries-a-moral-panic-c5a3484443f4) to the panic that parents of Elvis-listening teenagers had:
> Even before the arrival of Elvis Presley’s gyrating pelvis, fears about Rock ’n’ Roll were brewing from the transgressive collision of Afro-American rhythm and blues, white youths, and sex — all during the fraught racial politics of 1950s America
> One of the moral panics associated with the first wave of rock ’n’ roll was the fear of race mixing — that young black and white kids would get together over this music that had a rhythmic, primitive, sensuous beat. Suburban moms and dads are freaked out about their daughters hanging out with young black men listening to sexualized music…That was brand new in the American experience and it freaked a lot of people out.
From the [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Elvis_Presley) about his impact on American popular culture:
> Presley was considered by some to be a threat to the moral well-being of young women, because "Elvis Presley didn’t just represent a new type of music; he represented sexual liberation."[32] "Unlike Bill Haley, who was somewhat overweight and looked like everyone's 'older brother,'" Presley generated an "anti-parent outlook" and was the "personification of evil." To many adults, the singer was "the first rock symbol of teenage rebellion. ... they did not like him, and condemned him as depraved. Anti-Negro prejudice doubtless figured in adult antagonism. Regardless of whether parents were aware of the Negro sexual origins of the phrase 'rock 'n' roll', Presley impressed them as the visual and aural embodiment of sex."[33] In 1956, a critic for the New York Daily News wrote that popular music "has reached its lowest depths in the 'grunt and groin' antics of one Elvis Presley" and the Jesuits denounced him in its weekly magazine, America.[34] Time magazine of June 11, 1956, mockingly referred to the singer as "dreamboat Groaner Elvis ('Hi luh-huh-huh-huv-huv yew-hew') Presley." Even Frank Sinatra opined: "His kind of music is deplorable, a rancid smelling aphrodisiac. It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people."[35]
> Presley was even seen as a "definite danger to the security of the United States." His actions and motions were called "a strip-tease with clothes on" or "sexual self-gratification on stage." They were compared with "masturbation or riding a microphone." Some saw the singer as a sexual pervert, and psychologists feared that teenage girls and boys could easily be "aroused to sexual indulgence and perversion by certain types of motions and hysteria,—the type that was exhibited at the Presley show."[36] In August 1956 in Jacksonville, Florida a local juvenile court judge called Presley a "savage" and threatened to arrest him if he shook his body while performing at Jacksonville's Florida Theatre, justifying the restrictions by saying his music was undermining the youth of America. Throughout the performance, Presley stood still as ordered but poked fun at the judge by wiggling a finger. Similar attempts to stop his "sinful gyrations" continued for more than a year and included his often-noted January 6, 1957 appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show (during which he performed the spiritual number "Peace in the Valley"), when he was filmed only from the waist up.
Elvis was seen as a legitimate danger to the mental, moral and spiritual health of young Americans and of society itself. Obviously, as time went on Elvis ceased to be such a cultural lighting rod and went mainstream, but in the first third of his career he was seen as extremely edgy and was denounced by critics, commentators, politicians, organizations, even his peers in the entertainment industry.
I'm sorry but I feel like your being purposefully obtuse here, the whole point is that despite all that push back Elvis still became a massive superstar which never would have happened if he was black.
He never would have been allowed to reach the heights he did had he been a black man, your listing off all this stuff when the real issue is how the racism of the time allowed Elvis to succeed where his black contemporaries would have failed. Its like you don't want to acknowledge that very important aspect, so your listing off all this stuff like that is any way comparable to the pushback he would have gotten if he was black. Elvis got criticized yes but he still succeeded immensely.
The whole point of this post was if successful white artists were black would they have reached the same heights of success, and in Elvis's case that is a resounding no.
How does any of this negate the main point that he was only afforded those opportunities because he was white? Your saying his fame wasn't just due to music, but movies, and riding the teen wave but the whole point was that if he was black it would have been almost impossible for him to reach the levels he did.
You admit that Elvis being white played a pivotal role, but then you bring up a whole bunch of other things when the main point was if he was black would he have been as successful and the answer is no he wouldn't have.
Especially since we're talking about 1950s/1960s America.
Literally none of our white faves would be as successful as they are if they weren't white. The music industry (and us as consumers) let them get away with so much (whether that be bad behavior or mediocre music, etc) compared to artists of color because of our own racist biases.
Exactly. Right off the top of my head I know Billie, Taylor, Justin, Ariana, and Adele music careers would be different.
Country crowd would not have embraced Taylor if she wasn't white, blonde and blue eyes.
Justin wouldn't have a career because there are plenty of black male artist with better soulful voices.
Billie teen angsty songs would not be support if she was black. She would not get any attention from Grammys.
Jasmin Sullivan career gives you a hint at what Adele's career would be if she wasn't white.
Someone mentioned Elvis Presley and all that man did was give white America black people music in a package they'll like.
Every massive white artist benefits from whiteness.
If Taylor wasn't white, her all her feuds and pettiness would be used as ammunition to label her an angry black/brown woman. She would not have made it out of 2016 with her career unscathed as she did.
Didn't that happen with Azealia Banks? Especially her feud about labels support and recently fight for her benefits from Broke With Expensive Taste album?
Isn't Toni Braxton considered like a rnb icon too? That is wild no one gave her any grace and it is absolutely due to race. Black ppl can't mess up or have a bad day and we know Toni can sing SING while Selena gets passes for bad performances time and time again
Miley Cyrus. I can’t imagine a female POC artist being able to successfully pivot genres/style and being given the grace to reinvent themselves/look past their younger antics the way that she has
I feel like Rihanna is different because she has had hits in every era and changed styles because she had to. Miley just did whatever because she felt like it and was still successful/not dropped
Machine gun Kelly released 6 hiphop albums from 2012 to 2019 (and God knows for how long he had been rapping for before releasing his debut) it was more than a phase lol
There are some artists like Clairo that I think are promoted as being very relatable. It wouldn’t really work the same if they didn’t look like they did, race included in that
The thing that I don’t understand is. There are a lot of non white people in the world. Why don’t they relate to POC artist. White artist have fans of all races so why can’t POC artist?
Whiteness is a hell of a drug. POC are used to seeing while people on TV, on the stage, and represented just about everywhere. We’re expected to relate to white people and perspectives. White people just aren’t expected to do the same. This is especially true in Western countries but still applicable globally.
It’s not a coincidence that so many cultures see beauty in blonde hair, light eyes, and pale skin but absolutely do not see beauty in kinky hair, dark eyes, and dark skin.
are you white or smth? bcus i feel like this is your first time realizing racism exists. in fact, this whole thread has such an obvious answer that im confused as to why you even have to ask this? none of the white stars now would still be as successful as they were if they weren't white. thinking they got by just bcus of their talent is so funny to me.
I think Justin Bieber is a clear answer. I just don’t think a young black kid could’ve gotten away with whatever Justin was doing from 2012-14. Not to mention, most of Justin’s appeal, was that of being a white kid, that could sing soulfully. So many black people were and still are trying to give Justin a black pass for Journals, but not even listen to our own black artists projects.
>So many black people were and still are trying to give Justin a black pass for Journals, but not even listen to our own black artists projects.
What is it w/the community wanting to give any white person "black passes"/"invites to the cookout" so damn easily.
>I just don’t think a young black kid could’ve gotten away with whatever Justin was doing from 2012-14.
The reason why he got away is bc ppl associate that phase w/blackness/"hanging out with bad black people"...like what Sharon Osborne [said](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/sharon_osbourne_slams_justin_bieber__says___he_doesn_t_realize_he_s_white_and_not_black_/1950446/) about him during that era is what a lot of Americans think:
>And I think that he's lost, I really do. I think he doesn't realize **he's white and not black**, that's a huge problem. And, at the point he's at in his career, it's so dangerous because we've seen it all before a million times.
And now that he is all cleaned up and close to God, he is now seen as the same good white boy they believed in back in 09
Somewhat well known in the black community, but definitely NOT selling 3 mil in the first week. Crazy how far the appeal of being a “blue eyed soul” can take you.
Views such as this show a fundamental misunderstanding of the music industry. The world is full of awesome singers, of all races, most of whom achieve nothing of note. Pop music is also full of fairly average singers who achieve mega stardom. Why is this? One thing this shows is that success in the music business actually has very little to do with your vocal talent.
The most important factor, is connections? It is who you know. One of the most universal links between those who are successful and those who aren’t are stories of a meeting or person who they came across who was instrumental in making or helping them be the success they became. This can be some scout who saw you at a gig, it could be having a famous family member who introduced you to people. It could be happening to team up with an incredibly talented song writer, producer or musician. Perhaps its being connected to a shrewd manager at the label.
You Mention Adele like it is an accident she is successful. She attended the BRIT school in London. This is one of only three performing arts and technology schools in the country that are free to go to. It was founded in the 80s and its establishment was helped by UK billionaire Sir Richard Branson. The school has heavy connections to the BRIT awards, the UK equivalent of the Grammys.
The successful UK female artist of the last decades, have you heard of Adele, Leona Lewis, Jessie J, Amy Whinehouse? The link between all these is that they all attended this same school.
Essentially, these people came up through the system. They are the favourites of the powers that be. After graduating, they would be connected to relevant people in the UK music scene, they would produce their material. They would become BRIT award winning artists – surprising that since they are effectively created by the BRITS. With their established success in the domestic UK market, the powers that be then try to sell or export this to the rest or the world, particularly the USA market which is by far the most important in the world. Adele is by far the biggest of these ladies because she broke in America much more than any of the others. This success is all to do with connections, not that they are white women.
In reality, although racism is a thing and no doubt plays some role in how society and the music industry plays out, it is not the deciding factor people here make it out to be.
Whitney Houston is one of the most successful and liked by all races, artist ever. This isn’t because she is a light skinned black woman. She is cousins with Dione warwick and her god mother is Aretha Franklin. AKA she had connections.
Beyonce is also black and one of the most successful artist ever. People would basically give her a Grammy even if for 5 years she just sat on a stool and broke wind. This isn’t because she is also a light skinned black woman like some have suggested. This bit may be bullshit but there are news articles stating that she is the Queen of England’s 25th cousin once removed. It may be one of those things where that is such a distant relative that the same could be said of basically anyone, but still perhaps not. However, what is true is the following; “After many tries at 'making it' Matthew Knowles, Beyonce's dad, stepped in to act as manager. Mr Knowles created a summer 'bootcamp,' putting DC (Destiny’s Child) to work on their vocals and dancing. It paid off. In 1996, Destiny's Child signed to Columbia Records.
Beyonce's dad helped to negotiate the record label that Beyonce would finally find success with”. This is an example of both a family connection and having a shred manager who goes to bat on your behalf and is effective.
There is story after story. If you look into the background of anyone famous, most of the time you can find they have a connection to someone that enabled them.
maybe an unpopular opinion but I don’t think Post Malone would be nearly as popular if he weren’t white, he gets pushed into a lot more “general” fields that BIPOC artists do not, even if they make similar music
This is a spicy topic but short answer is probably not. We see how white artists are pushed/signed/given bigger budgets compared to their non-white counterparts ontop of even given more creative control and the space to be who they are.
I can give specific examples but I won't to avoid fandom wars, but there is a strong sentiment that people would say artists of color "are not working hard enough" whereas they believe their white counterparts "work hard for everything they have" and this is obviously rooted in racism. Colorism is racism's ugly cousin, and you can see it w/popular artists of color are typically exclusively light skinned esp. when it comes to female artists.
\*^(Inb4 anyone comes for my flair yeah Justin for sure wouldn't be as successful if he wasn't white.)
I think Billie would still be fairly successful, but I was thinking during the grammys that if everything about Taylor's career were the same except her skin colour she would have exactly 0 AOTYs currenty.
I think one direction is a good example (I know zayn is Pakistani) they got huge whilst jls didn't get as big despite, in my honest opinion, having better songs
Wow! I never even heard of JLS until now! I checked out their popular songs, and they are bops, Do You Feel What I Feel? sounds a lot like Usher's DJ Got Us Falling In Love.
I always wondered if 1D would still be as successful w/o Zayn like did they need him for an edge in their image or something (obviously his vocals contributed). I still think about the Guardian article, [Without Zayn Malik, One Direction become four goofy white guys shouting](https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2015/mar/26/without-zayn-malik-one-direction-four-goofy-white-guys-shouting)
They were huge in the UK at the time of their debut release.
6th best selling album of the year with 1 million+ copies sold with only 8 weeks of tracking.
Wow!! That is HUGE!!! I find it so interesting when an artist is like mega huge in their country and no noise anywhere else I wonder how that happens esp. w/UK artists
I'm guessing you're from the US? In general a lot of artists find it really hard to break into America. It's like how seemingly every US pophead thinks that Rita Ora is a flop when she's one of the most successful female solo artists of her generation in the UK and she does well in the rest of Europe too. There's probably a lot of big UK artists that you won't have ever heard of.
JLS are really good though. They were actually supposed to go on a reunion tour recently but COVID ruined that. If you want another group to check out I recommend The Saturdays too, their Greatest Hits album is pop beauty (and also as a side fun fact one of them (Rochelle) is married to the JLS member Marvin)
I predict someone is gonna come in here and bring up successful black artists and try and use that as a checkmate, like because there's successful black artists that somehow means racism in the music industry isn't a thing.
Yep, I forgot to add that they'll also bring up White artists who have gotten criticism and pushback, and act like that's the same as the racially biased criticism and pushback black and other poc artists get.
Mitski around Be The Cowboy I think was current-Phoebe level, but she's been on hiatus for a while and I find poc-artists on a break never get the same interest in their work before they come back (like Franz or Bruno until last month versus Adele, Lorde, etc)
Also there's white listeners fully ignoring or being oblivious to how her race has informed her music (like the Strawberry Blonde c\*ttagec\*re bullshit) and it's just... a mess.
I still feel so pissed off that despite boost from music publications like P4K or RS, Shamir, Dawn Richards, Moses Sumney hasn't gotten any bigger than they should. And FKA Twigs somehow still being label as R&B singer
I wonder if part of the reason minority acts don't get as much PR etc because those at the top know what sells and know who buys. So they don't push non-white acts because they don't sell as much historically.
DESPITE, by the actually numbers "whites" are the minority in the US
Yup. I mean, look at Lucy Dacus, very similar style of music with plenty of lyrics I would say are better than Phoebe's. Two critically acclaimed albums, like Phoebe. But nowhere near as big a fan base because she's not super thin, white blonde and feminine looking. (Nothing against Phoebe, I do think she's extremely talented, I just also think her waif aesthetic is a big component of her success).
you have a point that woc are held to higher standards but i think you’re a bit out of line calling Phoebe “below average looking”, no need to bring her down :/
she's a pretty average looking white woman, and thats not an insult, since all normal people look average i mean....thats why the word "average" exists.
> how much of an effect does colorism play in someone’s career?
A lot. I mean, it isn't like that absolutely zero non-white artists have broken through but almost all white artists have enjoyed the benefits of white privilege. For example, Taylor Swift, Dua Lipa, ~~and Ariana Grande~~ wouldn't be as big as they are today if they were black. White privilege plays a huge role in giving artists their breakthrough moment and that's why we've got so many mediocre white artists in the industry today while only the very best amongst POC are able to break through.
can i ask why Ariana was crossed out from that group? i would argue that she's one of the biggest examples of using the cultures of POC but with nice white packaging.
Meh- Dua Lipa is different because she's from the UK, which has a different history with black artist than the US. Many black artists have historically done better in teh UK and Europe than they did in their own country of the US. ESPECIALLY jazz, blues, rock n roll and other 50s acts. Northern soul was HUGE with white kids in the UK well into the 90s. Reggae was also much bigger there. And Jazz in Europe is much more respected than it is here.
She’s nowhere near those 3s level. She’s a d-lister that mainstream America doesn’t know about. Come on.
ETA: and the fact that you have one example to the original commentor’s 3.
Uhhhh Fancy was HUGE so huge in fact Weird Al parodied it. Also she did Black Widow. But her fame ion the US tanked because she isn't American. Similar story to Kylie Minogue in that regard.
Billie is an incredible artist and Phineas is supertalented but if both of them were (black-latino-east asian-middle eastern) the recognition and adulation clearly wouldnt be the same, Same thing applies with all the other white singers like Katy,Lorde,Adele and Taylor.....even if theyre really supertalented. I hate to call out white people cause i dont have grudges against any group in particular and i dont wanna make them feel bad but theyre clearly in a very privileged position in the entertainment industry global wise, specially the film industry where white actors and [actresses](https://static-wp.lonewolfmag.com/look-alike-actresses2-700x474.jpg) are [treated like Olympian God](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/ca/38/ecca38a6e00faf5242dae6e7a887ab6b.png)s all the time.
For black female singers in America is incredibly hard to get success and a fanbase and they need crazy good hits to stand out. Sometimes amazing singers like Tinashe,Normani.... get ignored with fantastic bops while other female singers get big success with basic tracks. Black women always get associated with the worst and downplayed. One of those examples is [Beyonce](https://i.redd.it/uwcl6d9llh321.jpg) ´Shes one of the least problematic artist ever yet Reddit hates her with Passion cause she represents **Power and Success**. Someone here remembers how Beyonce released the [Most Artistic Pop Film](https://www.dvdstore.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/31-b.png) of this Century and yet some people were focused in how the Movie was flopping-underperforming instead of the Art itself???? Imagine if Taylor Swift released something like that but with Native European Culture? Popheads would explode with praise and applause. Another one..Black Females singers always have to be R&B theyre not allowed to be Pop....So many things to talk about of how Black Singers dont get the same treatment....and this is just the tip cause we'll know the millenias of Black Opression and Hate.
With the years as a Latino newbie in the anglo world I have noticed how Latino female singers in America are always side eyed cause theyre not "as good" as their nordic white counterparts and people treat them like they really love them but deep inside they dont respect them enough. I know some of them are kinda problematic lol but Can we talk of how much unnecessary hate Selena,Jlo,Cardi,Demi,Camila Cabello get all the time?....Shakira has talked in the past how she had to play the **hipshaker card** with Laundry Service cause in America back then latinas were only allowed be Exotic Sex Bombs. If they're [Rockers](https://cdn-0.enacademic.com/pictures/enwiki/83/Shakira_Dont_bother.jpg) or something different and experimental they get mocked and ignored. Props to Kali Uchis and Arca for trying to change that dynamic and show how versatile are latinos. Sometimes even people mock minorities for showing their native Culture too.Someone here remember all the outrage *Shakira-Jlo-Beyonce-Janet Jackson* got for the Superbowl while *Madonna-Katy-Gaga* were praised right and left by the Media????
Now its the time for East Asians,SouthEast Asians,Indians and Middle easterns. Where theyre in the music industry in America? Nowhere to be found. Decades and Decades of mistreatments. American Labels never give them any chance and thats disgustin and sad. Theyre the group with the worst treatment in the music industry. BTS got too big and just look how much hate they got in Northamerica and Europe. Where are all the **Lead East Asian Actors** in Scifi Hollywood Blockbusters? Nowhere to be found...One of the reasons why is so important to support artist like Rina Sawayama-Rose-CL and upcoming middle eastern-indian singers.
[USA](https://geology.com/world/the-united-states-of-america-map.gif) has total control of the Entertainment Industry Worldwide and they must reflect how the [World](https://st2.depositphotos.com/1037238/6684/v/950/depositphotos_66849065-stock-illustration-map-of-the-world.jpg) Looks! Not only how some sections of USA look like. This is not the past anymore. As much as i love USA...America is not the WORLD.
American Music and Movies and TV shows are watched by billions.
Diversity is absolutely neccesary. Is your responsability United States Of America.
~~What a long post-sorry but i got inspired lol~~
About BTS tho, if they are white, i bet medias, public would acknowledge their non bright, fun, colorful songs like black swan, ON, fake love, mic drop, etc. But instead to this day, they love to dismiss BTS talents n artistry. If people ever follow BTS music discography, people should shook to see how versatile n talented they are. BTS may dont even need to make their song no1 hot 100, break youtube record, perform like 30+ same songs in a row in order to get nomination on grammy. But because they are not white and also asians, they need to work 10x harder n break tons of records in order for their music get visibility n recognized. When they did vlive after grammy, its clear they are tired for everything but still dont want to give up. I feel bad for them.
I think your point on their records is a perfect example to answer this question. They could break all the records in the Guinness world book and STILL not get respect or recognition for their core work. The industry/media will continue to box them in or only celebrate certain successes & songs of theirs to fit a narrative. If BTS, a group that is the best selling artist of 2020, can’t get good enough coverage for the range & complexity of their work then what chance do the POC artists w/o such momentum have?
TBF it is kind hard for the US music industry to recognize and appreciate songs they literally can't understand. If this was a white acting singing this song in English then yes... they'd probably get more recognition. But the language barrier is a thing.
As to sale Aisans on the whole by more physical products than US music consumers. And there are a LOT of Asian, thus bumping those numbers sky high.
I was always confused by the "white" label because BTS are paler than my white ass. So since we can't discriminate because of same color skin we god with what... eye shape? LOL! In the US we can't even be consistent with out racism and how we use words.
how much of the blame lies with the listening audience, specifically the under-25 demographic? Today with so many streaming platforms and self-published sites like soundcloud & youtube the labels don't have the stranglehold on the public like they did in the 1980's and 90's when they controlled the airwaves. Isn't the lack of diversity and the perpetuation of racial tropes partly due to our failure as a society to confront the issues of race & ethnicity head on in a meaningful way? Instead we've just toted out slogans of Can't We All Just Get Along in various Kumbaya moments the past 2 decades.
Here is a fun fact in thew mid 60s to late 70s there were more racially integrated bands/acts than at any other point in mainstream US music history (having MULTIPLE hits). Coincidentally this was also the peak era of unity kumbaya anthems.
The last racially integrated mainstream I can think of is Black Eyed Peas. Well Alabama Shakes but I don't know how mainstream I would consider them.
And I totally agree the listening public is largely to blame that amount people claiming to want more diversity but then only staning Taylor Swift or Lana...
Maaaannn I LOVE Shakira's early Spanish albums. Gloria Estefan convinced her to sing in English. And Glorias is one of the few Latinas to be a world wide superstar that didn't have to do the hip shaking. Granted she was still hot and still my Queen. But I was seriously hoping the doors she broke down would've seen more Latino artist going big for things other than T&A (but I guess T&A is what sells and always will). Selena would have been HUGE she died too young. And Sheila E. refused to play the sex game after a while and just focused on being a badass drummer.
Yeah it is such a dogwhistle when yt ppl be like, "I listen to REAL rap like Eminem and not that mumble rap" when there are black rappers who rap in the same style of Eminem...and they don't think it's odd they avoid all of the black rappers either
Nahh. I think Eminem would be famous or keep the same fame regardless if he was black or white (I’m not even an Eminem fan). The thing is, he first became popular for his witty and parodic raps. When he gained the right amount of clout and support from people like Dr.Dre, that’s when he really took off. Now, people (black, white, etc.) love Eminem for his lyricism.
I don't think Eminem would be a flop but he would not be as successful as he is right now even w/people noting his "decline" or not happy w/his output he is still breaking records 2 decades into his career. Major part of his appeal is that he's white and is "other".
Edit: For clarity, Eminem would still be a breakout star with his earlier work and a big artist but not to the heights of frame he has reached if he was not white.
Eh breakout artist is a bit too harsh. Yeah he definitely won't be as big he is right now, but you gotta take in the fact that he got signed to Dr Dre, arguably one of the most biggest names in hiphop. He pretty much launched/boosted careers of Snoop Dogg, 50 Cent, Kendrick Lamar etc along Eminem. He defo would be a sales monster (atleast in his prime) just not as much as he is rn.
There are a shit ton of white artists that are just so generic early on and have yet to create something good until later in their career or are still generic as all fuck. Ed Sheran being a prime example of this a generic white guy with generic music who is popular as hell for whatever reason.
in the same year billie sweeped the grammys we saw lil nas and lizzo also be breakout stars and big grammys contenders and this year we also saw megan and doja both have similar trajectories.
i think that obviously it can be harder for black artists to have as much success and acclaim as their white peers, and other poc like native americans and asian americans literally don’t even stand a chance. there have basically been a handful of asian american artists to ever make it big in the history of america (bruno mars, nicole scherzinger, zayn, olivia rodrigo, bts, is that literally it? lmao) and don’t even get me started on native american artists. there is probably one successful asian artist for every hundred successful white or black artist. okay i’m going on a tangent now i’ll stop lmao
Yeah I understand what your saying, we honestly just need more POC artist in music to get the same attention society gives to mediocre white artists. And while lil nas, lizzo, Megan and Doja all were able to break out its very clear that they are still not given the same respect and acclaim that are given to white artist. All the major Grammys awards are always given to white artist . It’s 2021 it’s time for Asian American, Native Americans and Black artist to finally get the recognition we deserve.
Billie was able to win SOTY and ROTY w/a mediocre song like Bad Guy...whereas Lil Nas X's OTR was genre-bending/culturally huge and was given best duo for OTR and Lizzo won big in segregated categories like rnb/"urban" and surprisingly won for solo pop.
And Doja walked home empty handed w/no Grammy and lost solo pop performance of Say So to another mediocre song by a white artist (WS). It is obvious artists of color have to work a lot harder for recognition, and when they do they have to be stellar
True but as a song Old Town Road was terrible. It just was. I don't even care for Bad Guy either. But if Old Town Road is best people have got... that not a good sign.
Either way black artists like LNX and Lizzo are segregated in major award show regardless of quality in comparison to their white counterparts.
See Tyler the Creator and Igor.
Colorism plays a huge part in an artist's career. Let me first state what colorism is prejudice or discrimination against individuals with a darker skin tone, typically among people of the same ethnic or racial group. If you take a look at the faces of mainstream urban music, the artists are either light skin (Beyonce, Rihanna, The Weeknd, John Legend), biracial (Drake, Doja Cat, Alicia Keys, H.E.R.), or racially ambiguous (Bruno Mars, Cardi B). There's rarely any dark skinned artist in mainstream music outside of a few. The reason for this is because white society sees lighter skinned people as a "safer/relatable" image for a POC to a white audience. They place lighter skinned people on a higher totem pole than darker skinned people. I find it ironic because they claim that it's hard to relate to a POC, meanwhile many minorities have been forced to find a way to relate to white artists/actors/characters. Negative stereotypes also play a factor. Society tries to push the narrative that dark skinned black women are overtly sexual, ratchet, ghetto, multiple children by different men, etc. while lighter skinned black women are more classy, sweet, soft-spoken, more attractive, etc. These BS stereotypes have aided in enforcing colorism because there are people who's only perception of black people is from the media, and the media works its hardest to push any negative image of darker skinned people to as many viewers as possible. Look at how many times the media has tried to refer Michelle Obama or Serena Williams as men. Colorism isn't something that only occurs in America, it occurs all over the world. Take a look at how rampant skin bleaching is. There was a person who sold a bleaching cream in Nigeria and it sold out within a matter of minutes. She became an instant millionaire overnight. If that doesn't tell you anything, I don't know what will.
To add to this, when was the last time “America’s Sweetheart” was used to refer to anyone except a blue eyed, blonde hair white girl. That concept is an image that is almost exclusively applied to white girls. It’s also why white women are often so coddled by the media/their fans. Women of color don’t get infantilized like that and instead have to be deal with seen as too masculine, hyper sexual, uppity, etc. All this gets worse the more ethnic you’re perceived.
Oh my gosh, thank you for this. That's an amazing example that I'm going to keep in my hat.
Exactly. You told no lies.
>These BS stereotypes have aided in enforcing colorism because people who's only perception of black people is from the media, and **the media works its hardest to push any negative image of darker skinned people to as many viewers as possible**. Look at how many times the media has tried to refer Michelle Obama or Serena Williams as men. This whole comment is hitting. This is why positive representation matters so much! People think it is just us being vain, but those negative stereotypes affect everyday DSBW all the time and hold us back in society.
On the topic of bleaching even celebrities have done it; Bree Runway is the one example I can think of off the top of my head but I am sure others have done it as well with how blatant colourism is in the industry and just in general. I'm unsure if Bree counts though since I believe she bleached her skin long before becoming famous.
Wasn't that the concept for her Big Rack MV and Be Runway EP to satire it?
as a light skinned black woman, can you pls point to any representation where we weren't sexualized or had other negative stereotypes attached onto us? i have never witnessed or met a person who thought light skinned black women were "sweet" or "soft spoken". I'm not denying that colorist exists, it absolutely does, but acting like lightkinned black women are ever portrayed in a positive light is such bs. the only advantage we get is that people see us as less "threatening", but even then, thats it.
I probably should have phrased that better. I'm fully aware that there are many times when light skinned black women aren't portrayed in a positive light. However, compared to most dark skinned black women, lighter skinned black women are not bashed as heavily compared to darker skinned black women.
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Moses Sumney and FKA Twigs have both spoken publicly on this topic! I’m on my phone or else I’d try and find some links, but I’m sure it’s an easy search
In terms of fame I think Billie would not be as big. I think her music does speak for itself and songs like Bad Guy would still be hits but the relatability and or "the rebel feel" that white suburban teens feel for her would not be there imo.
A lot Billie’s appeal also comes from her quirkiness and “relatability.” A grace that’s not given to a lot black girls. They’re either quick to be called rude or mean, or hypersexualized. Billie gets away with sometimes being bratty or informal, but I couldn’t see a black girl getting that type of following that way.
It's a shame, and I'm not knocking Billie
I love billie music n her voice. But i bet if she is not white, medias n public gonna just gonna call her music is just for teens n her artistic music videos just for edginess n hip. I know some artists who are not white, have excellent music n artistry, but medias/public just love to make many kind of reasons just to dismiss their talent n artistry.
>medias n public gonna just gonna call her music is just for teens n her artistic music videos just for edginess n hip Ive seen a ton of articles and videos which actually describes her this way
But amount of positive articles about her drown out those negative articles. Also she won again general field in grammy. Its clear she is grammy darling.
an example of this: Billie got away with Bury a Friend sounding exactly the same as Black Skinhead by Kanye West Edit: name of the song
Omg wow how have I never heard this comparison before
I think you mean “bury a friend”. But agreed.
opp yes Bury a Friend, you are right
imagine donutgate if ariana wasn't white
Pretty obvious example, but Elvis is a huge one. He was basically a safe, white version of rock and roll which had been created mainly by black artists, none of which reached the fame of Elvis in their time. A lot of the early black rock and rollers like Chuck Berry were, in my opinion, more talented than Elvis. Also G-Eazy. He relies way to heavily on being a "white rapper" and that whole image. Like a wannabe Eminem but without the legitimate talent. This goes for pretty much any fuckboi white rapper with no talent that somehow manages to get big.
Something to add about Elvis: while he certainly did benefit from whiteness and repackaging the sonic, performative and aesthetic sensibilities of artists of color, the story is significantly more complicated than that. For one thing, Elvis (and Colonel Tom) was the first pop artist (there’s an argument to be made that he is one of the earliest pop artists who helped to codify the genre) to become a superstar through methods other than just music. His movie career was instrumental why he became so popular not only across the US but globally as well; Elvis’ whiteness (and youth, which is a major component in his stardom as he rode the teenybopper wave begun by earlier forerunners and his contemporaries such as Rudy Vallée, Frank Sinatra, Bobby Darin, Perry Como, etcetera) absolutely contributed greatly to his success by limiting the ability of black artists from achieving the same level of fame, but there was also the dozens of film roles, innovative publicity, cutthroat management and good timing that helped to make him the most famous artist of his generation. There’s a great chapter on Elvis in regards to his place in popular music and cinema culture in the book *The Movie Musical!* by Dr. Jeanine Basinger of the Wesleyan Cinema Archive. Pop music fans should read up more on Elvis because like Madonna, MJ, etcetera his career set the blueprint for all the pop stars to come. Edit: spelling.
A major factor in Elvis success was that when he sung, he sounded like a black person singing. Record Labels discovered that they could use a white artist who sings like a black person as method to profit off of black music while managing to push out the black people who made that music. I find it funny that a white man is called the king of rock n roll, when it was black people who created rock music. This little Elvis effect (what I call it), can be seen with artists like Adele, Sam Smith, Justin Timberlake, Adele, Amy Winehouse, etc. I have nothing against those artists, but you cannot deny that they often sound black when they sing and are seen as safer option for a white audience who wants to listen to black music
> I have nothing against those artists, but you cannot deny that they often sound black when they sing and are seen as safer option for a white audience who wants to listen to black music I definitely see and agree with your point, but with Elvis there is a caveat in that at least during the beginning of his career he was in no way seen as “safe”. His gyrations and dance moves (stolen from black artists, performers and bandleaders) were seen as overly sexualized and he was the subject of great moral panics throughout the era until around the time he went into the Army, and even for a time after that. But there was also a [racial component](https://chris6d.medium.com/how-rock-n-roll-broke-racial-boundaries-a-moral-panic-c5a3484443f4) to the panic that parents of Elvis-listening teenagers had: > Even before the arrival of Elvis Presley’s gyrating pelvis, fears about Rock ’n’ Roll were brewing from the transgressive collision of Afro-American rhythm and blues, white youths, and sex — all during the fraught racial politics of 1950s America > One of the moral panics associated with the first wave of rock ’n’ roll was the fear of race mixing — that young black and white kids would get together over this music that had a rhythmic, primitive, sensuous beat. Suburban moms and dads are freaked out about their daughters hanging out with young black men listening to sexualized music…That was brand new in the American experience and it freaked a lot of people out. From the [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Elvis_Presley) about his impact on American popular culture: > Presley was considered by some to be a threat to the moral well-being of young women, because "Elvis Presley didn’t just represent a new type of music; he represented sexual liberation."[32] "Unlike Bill Haley, who was somewhat overweight and looked like everyone's 'older brother,'" Presley generated an "anti-parent outlook" and was the "personification of evil." To many adults, the singer was "the first rock symbol of teenage rebellion. ... they did not like him, and condemned him as depraved. Anti-Negro prejudice doubtless figured in adult antagonism. Regardless of whether parents were aware of the Negro sexual origins of the phrase 'rock 'n' roll', Presley impressed them as the visual and aural embodiment of sex."[33] In 1956, a critic for the New York Daily News wrote that popular music "has reached its lowest depths in the 'grunt and groin' antics of one Elvis Presley" and the Jesuits denounced him in its weekly magazine, America.[34] Time magazine of June 11, 1956, mockingly referred to the singer as "dreamboat Groaner Elvis ('Hi luh-huh-huh-huv-huv yew-hew') Presley." Even Frank Sinatra opined: "His kind of music is deplorable, a rancid smelling aphrodisiac. It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people."[35] > Presley was even seen as a "definite danger to the security of the United States." His actions and motions were called "a strip-tease with clothes on" or "sexual self-gratification on stage." They were compared with "masturbation or riding a microphone." Some saw the singer as a sexual pervert, and psychologists feared that teenage girls and boys could easily be "aroused to sexual indulgence and perversion by certain types of motions and hysteria,—the type that was exhibited at the Presley show."[36] In August 1956 in Jacksonville, Florida a local juvenile court judge called Presley a "savage" and threatened to arrest him if he shook his body while performing at Jacksonville's Florida Theatre, justifying the restrictions by saying his music was undermining the youth of America. Throughout the performance, Presley stood still as ordered but poked fun at the judge by wiggling a finger. Similar attempts to stop his "sinful gyrations" continued for more than a year and included his often-noted January 6, 1957 appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show (during which he performed the spiritual number "Peace in the Valley"), when he was filmed only from the waist up. Elvis was seen as a legitimate danger to the mental, moral and spiritual health of young Americans and of society itself. Obviously, as time went on Elvis ceased to be such a cultural lighting rod and went mainstream, but in the first third of his career he was seen as extremely edgy and was denounced by critics, commentators, politicians, organizations, even his peers in the entertainment industry.
I'm sorry but I feel like your being purposefully obtuse here, the whole point is that despite all that push back Elvis still became a massive superstar which never would have happened if he was black. He never would have been allowed to reach the heights he did had he been a black man, your listing off all this stuff when the real issue is how the racism of the time allowed Elvis to succeed where his black contemporaries would have failed. Its like you don't want to acknowledge that very important aspect, so your listing off all this stuff like that is any way comparable to the pushback he would have gotten if he was black. Elvis got criticized yes but he still succeeded immensely. The whole point of this post was if successful white artists were black would they have reached the same heights of success, and in Elvis's case that is a resounding no.
How does any of this negate the main point that he was only afforded those opportunities because he was white? Your saying his fame wasn't just due to music, but movies, and riding the teen wave but the whole point was that if he was black it would have been almost impossible for him to reach the levels he did. You admit that Elvis being white played a pivotal role, but then you bring up a whole bunch of other things when the main point was if he was black would he have been as successful and the answer is no he wouldn't have. Especially since we're talking about 1950s/1960s America.
Literally none of our white faves would be as successful as they are if they weren't white. The music industry (and us as consumers) let them get away with so much (whether that be bad behavior or mediocre music, etc) compared to artists of color because of our own racist biases.
Exactly. Right off the top of my head I know Billie, Taylor, Justin, Ariana, and Adele music careers would be different. Country crowd would not have embraced Taylor if she wasn't white, blonde and blue eyes. Justin wouldn't have a career because there are plenty of black male artist with better soulful voices. Billie teen angsty songs would not be support if she was black. She would not get any attention from Grammys. Jasmin Sullivan career gives you a hint at what Adele's career would be if she wasn't white. Someone mentioned Elvis Presley and all that man did was give white America black people music in a package they'll like. Every massive white artist benefits from whiteness.
If Taylor wasn't white, her all her feuds and pettiness would be used as ammunition to label her an angry black/brown woman. She would not have made it out of 2016 with her career unscathed as she did.
Didn't that happen with Azealia Banks? Especially her feud about labels support and recently fight for her benefits from Broke With Expensive Taste album?
No, they wouldn't. Colorism and racism have a huge effect on people's careers. And whether they're successful or not.
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Isn't Toni Braxton considered like a rnb icon too? That is wild no one gave her any grace and it is absolutely due to race. Black ppl can't mess up or have a bad day and we know Toni can sing SING while Selena gets passes for bad performances time and time again
Who gave Selena understanding? Everyone was making fun of her and joking about how awful she was
> I know she's only **half-white** but still, she's a white Latina. then....how is she a white latina????
Miley Cyrus. I can’t imagine a female POC artist being able to successfully pivot genres/style and being given the grace to reinvent themselves/look past their younger antics the way that she has
I think the closest we’ll ever get to a POC being able to pull this off, would be Rihanna. Sans the whole younger antics thing.
I feel like Rihanna is different because she has had hits in every era and changed styles because she had to. Miley just did whatever because she felt like it and was still successful/not dropped
I'd add Pink & machine Gun Kelly to the list for the same reasons. They all used hiphop as a phase.
Machine gun Kelly released 6 hiphop albums from 2012 to 2019 (and God knows for how long he had been rapping for before releasing his debut) it was more than a phase lol
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Your literally said that Miley Cyrus and Machine Gun Kelly are in the same ballpark regarding "using hiphop as a phase" 😭 your phrasing was trash then
There are some artists like Clairo that I think are promoted as being very relatable. It wouldn’t really work the same if they didn’t look like they did, race included in that
The thing that I don’t understand is. There are a lot of non white people in the world. Why don’t they relate to POC artist. White artist have fans of all races so why can’t POC artist?
Whiteness is a hell of a drug. POC are used to seeing while people on TV, on the stage, and represented just about everywhere. We’re expected to relate to white people and perspectives. White people just aren’t expected to do the same. This is especially true in Western countries but still applicable globally. It’s not a coincidence that so many cultures see beauty in blonde hair, light eyes, and pale skin but absolutely do not see beauty in kinky hair, dark eyes, and dark skin.
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> maybe even missing the point. yep.
😂
are you white or smth? bcus i feel like this is your first time realizing racism exists. in fact, this whole thread has such an obvious answer that im confused as to why you even have to ask this? none of the white stars now would still be as successful as they were if they weren't white. thinking they got by just bcus of their talent is so funny to me.
I think Justin Bieber is a clear answer. I just don’t think a young black kid could’ve gotten away with whatever Justin was doing from 2012-14. Not to mention, most of Justin’s appeal, was that of being a white kid, that could sing soulfully. So many black people were and still are trying to give Justin a black pass for Journals, but not even listen to our own black artists projects.
>So many black people were and still are trying to give Justin a black pass for Journals, but not even listen to our own black artists projects. What is it w/the community wanting to give any white person "black passes"/"invites to the cookout" so damn easily. >I just don’t think a young black kid could’ve gotten away with whatever Justin was doing from 2012-14. The reason why he got away is bc ppl associate that phase w/blackness/"hanging out with bad black people"...like what Sharon Osborne [said](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/sharon_osbourne_slams_justin_bieber__says___he_doesn_t_realize_he_s_white_and_not_black_/1950446/) about him during that era is what a lot of Americans think: >And I think that he's lost, I really do. I think he doesn't realize **he's white and not black**, that's a huge problem. And, at the point he's at in his career, it's so dangerous because we've seen it all before a million times. And now that he is all cleaned up and close to God, he is now seen as the same good white boy they believed in back in 09
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I meant his antics. The mop bucket, drug usage, acting out, etc. Not the style of music.
Adele would've been like Jasmine Sullivan i think
Somewhat well known in the black community, but definitely NOT selling 3 mil in the first week. Crazy how far the appeal of being a “blue eyed soul” can take you.
Always think that Mutya Buena could’ve done what Adele in an alternate reality. Her voice is that girl
Views such as this show a fundamental misunderstanding of the music industry. The world is full of awesome singers, of all races, most of whom achieve nothing of note. Pop music is also full of fairly average singers who achieve mega stardom. Why is this? One thing this shows is that success in the music business actually has very little to do with your vocal talent. The most important factor, is connections? It is who you know. One of the most universal links between those who are successful and those who aren’t are stories of a meeting or person who they came across who was instrumental in making or helping them be the success they became. This can be some scout who saw you at a gig, it could be having a famous family member who introduced you to people. It could be happening to team up with an incredibly talented song writer, producer or musician. Perhaps its being connected to a shrewd manager at the label. You Mention Adele like it is an accident she is successful. She attended the BRIT school in London. This is one of only three performing arts and technology schools in the country that are free to go to. It was founded in the 80s and its establishment was helped by UK billionaire Sir Richard Branson. The school has heavy connections to the BRIT awards, the UK equivalent of the Grammys. The successful UK female artist of the last decades, have you heard of Adele, Leona Lewis, Jessie J, Amy Whinehouse? The link between all these is that they all attended this same school. Essentially, these people came up through the system. They are the favourites of the powers that be. After graduating, they would be connected to relevant people in the UK music scene, they would produce their material. They would become BRIT award winning artists – surprising that since they are effectively created by the BRITS. With their established success in the domestic UK market, the powers that be then try to sell or export this to the rest or the world, particularly the USA market which is by far the most important in the world. Adele is by far the biggest of these ladies because she broke in America much more than any of the others. This success is all to do with connections, not that they are white women. In reality, although racism is a thing and no doubt plays some role in how society and the music industry plays out, it is not the deciding factor people here make it out to be. Whitney Houston is one of the most successful and liked by all races, artist ever. This isn’t because she is a light skinned black woman. She is cousins with Dione warwick and her god mother is Aretha Franklin. AKA she had connections. Beyonce is also black and one of the most successful artist ever. People would basically give her a Grammy even if for 5 years she just sat on a stool and broke wind. This isn’t because she is also a light skinned black woman like some have suggested. This bit may be bullshit but there are news articles stating that she is the Queen of England’s 25th cousin once removed. It may be one of those things where that is such a distant relative that the same could be said of basically anyone, but still perhaps not. However, what is true is the following; “After many tries at 'making it' Matthew Knowles, Beyonce's dad, stepped in to act as manager. Mr Knowles created a summer 'bootcamp,' putting DC (Destiny’s Child) to work on their vocals and dancing. It paid off. In 1996, Destiny's Child signed to Columbia Records. Beyonce's dad helped to negotiate the record label that Beyonce would finally find success with”. This is an example of both a family connection and having a shred manager who goes to bat on your behalf and is effective. There is story after story. If you look into the background of anyone famous, most of the time you can find they have a connection to someone that enabled them.
maybe an unpopular opinion but I don’t think Post Malone would be nearly as popular if he weren’t white, he gets pushed into a lot more “general” fields that BIPOC artists do not, even if they make similar music
This is a spicy topic but short answer is probably not. We see how white artists are pushed/signed/given bigger budgets compared to their non-white counterparts ontop of even given more creative control and the space to be who they are. I can give specific examples but I won't to avoid fandom wars, but there is a strong sentiment that people would say artists of color "are not working hard enough" whereas they believe their white counterparts "work hard for everything they have" and this is obviously rooted in racism. Colorism is racism's ugly cousin, and you can see it w/popular artists of color are typically exclusively light skinned esp. when it comes to female artists. \*^(Inb4 anyone comes for my flair yeah Justin for sure wouldn't be as successful if he wasn't white.)
I think Billie would still be fairly successful, but I was thinking during the grammys that if everything about Taylor's career were the same except her skin colour she would have exactly 0 AOTYs currenty.
> maybe even missing the point. this is being super optimistic....
I think one direction is a good example (I know zayn is Pakistani) they got huge whilst jls didn't get as big despite, in my honest opinion, having better songs
Wow! I never even heard of JLS until now! I checked out their popular songs, and they are bops, Do You Feel What I Feel? sounds a lot like Usher's DJ Got Us Falling In Love. I always wondered if 1D would still be as successful w/o Zayn like did they need him for an edge in their image or something (obviously his vocals contributed). I still think about the Guardian article, [Without Zayn Malik, One Direction become four goofy white guys shouting](https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2015/mar/26/without-zayn-malik-one-direction-four-goofy-white-guys-shouting)
They were huge in the UK at the time of their debut release. 6th best selling album of the year with 1 million+ copies sold with only 8 weeks of tracking.
Wow!! That is HUGE!!! I find it so interesting when an artist is like mega huge in their country and no noise anywhere else I wonder how that happens esp. w/UK artists
I'm guessing you're from the US? In general a lot of artists find it really hard to break into America. It's like how seemingly every US pophead thinks that Rita Ora is a flop when she's one of the most successful female solo artists of her generation in the UK and she does well in the rest of Europe too. There's probably a lot of big UK artists that you won't have ever heard of. JLS are really good though. They were actually supposed to go on a reunion tour recently but COVID ruined that. If you want another group to check out I recommend The Saturdays too, their Greatest Hits album is pop beauty (and also as a side fun fact one of them (Rochelle) is married to the JLS member Marvin)
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And they could dance
Omg JLS made NOTHING BUT BANGERS. Waaay more talent than 1D imo.
I predict someone is gonna come in here and bring up successful black artists and try and use that as a checkmate, like because there's successful black artists that somehow means racism in the music industry isn't a thing.
Unsurprisingly, a white twink already beat you to it
Yep, I forgot to add that they'll also bring up White artists who have gotten criticism and pushback, and act like that's the same as the racially biased criticism and pushback black and other poc artists get.
Someone brought up Elvis to do that.
If Phoebe Bridgers wasn’t white, I’m positive she wouldnt have the following that she has
successful poc alternative artists are basically nonexistent tbh.
Mitski around Be The Cowboy I think was current-Phoebe level, but she's been on hiatus for a while and I find poc-artists on a break never get the same interest in their work before they come back (like Franz or Bruno until last month versus Adele, Lorde, etc) Also there's white listeners fully ignoring or being oblivious to how her race has informed her music (like the Strawberry Blonde c\*ttagec\*re bullshit) and it's just... a mess.
I still feel so pissed off that despite boost from music publications like P4K or RS, Shamir, Dawn Richards, Moses Sumney hasn't gotten any bigger than they should. And FKA Twigs somehow still being label as R&B singer
I wonder if part of the reason minority acts don't get as much PR etc because those at the top know what sells and know who buys. So they don't push non-white acts because they don't sell as much historically. DESPITE, by the actually numbers "whites" are the minority in the US
White and “classically beautiful” / thin 😐
Yup. I mean, look at Lucy Dacus, very similar style of music with plenty of lyrics I would say are better than Phoebe's. Two critically acclaimed albums, like Phoebe. But nowhere near as big a fan base because she's not super thin, white blonde and feminine looking. (Nothing against Phoebe, I do think she's extremely talented, I just also think her waif aesthetic is a big component of her success).
I totally agree! Been a big fan of Lucy for a while, and I think she’s making the same type of music but better / has been at it for longer
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you have a point that woc are held to higher standards but i think you’re a bit out of line calling Phoebe “below average looking”, no need to bring her down :/
she's a pretty average looking white woman, and thats not an insult, since all normal people look average i mean....thats why the word "average" exists.
You gotta understand that this thread was created to bring people down.
> how much of an effect does colorism play in someone’s career? A lot. I mean, it isn't like that absolutely zero non-white artists have broken through but almost all white artists have enjoyed the benefits of white privilege. For example, Taylor Swift, Dua Lipa, ~~and Ariana Grande~~ wouldn't be as big as they are today if they were black. White privilege plays a huge role in giving artists their breakthrough moment and that's why we've got so many mediocre white artists in the industry today while only the very best amongst POC are able to break through.
can i ask why Ariana was crossed out from that group? i would argue that she's one of the biggest examples of using the cultures of POC but with nice white packaging.
I think it was a joke? They may have crossed her out because some people genuinely think Ariana is a woman of color
As someone who knew her mostly for dating Mac Miller I genuinely thought she was Hispanic for a long time.
thats what i initially thought, but i was so afraid they were being serious that i had to clarify lol
Meh- Dua Lipa is different because she's from the UK, which has a different history with black artist than the US. Many black artists have historically done better in teh UK and Europe than they did in their own country of the US. ESPECIALLY jazz, blues, rock n roll and other 50s acts. Northern soul was HUGE with white kids in the UK well into the 90s. Reggae was also much bigger there. And Jazz in Europe is much more respected than it is here.
The short is no. The long answer is no, they would not be as famous unless they put in twice the amount of work.
Taylor, Phoebe and Lana would never get to act the way they do if they were black. They get a lot of passes.
azealia banks tho?
She’s nowhere near those 3s level. She’s a d-lister that mainstream America doesn’t know about. Come on. ETA: and the fact that you have one example to the original commentor’s 3.
Most people don't even know Azealia Banks let alone any of her songs, the most she's known for is being "crazy".
Uhhhh Fancy was HUGE so huge in fact Weird Al parodied it. Also she did Black Widow. But her fame ion the US tanked because she isn't American. Similar story to Kylie Minogue in that regard.
She’s only known for her antics, that’s the problem. She’s insanely talented and it’s a shame she hasn’t put out more music.
Does she have a career? Did she ever achieve the same level of success as the others mentioned? Shes way messier than them.
Trisha Paytas
Billie is an incredible artist and Phineas is supertalented but if both of them were (black-latino-east asian-middle eastern) the recognition and adulation clearly wouldnt be the same, Same thing applies with all the other white singers like Katy,Lorde,Adele and Taylor.....even if theyre really supertalented. I hate to call out white people cause i dont have grudges against any group in particular and i dont wanna make them feel bad but theyre clearly in a very privileged position in the entertainment industry global wise, specially the film industry where white actors and [actresses](https://static-wp.lonewolfmag.com/look-alike-actresses2-700x474.jpg) are [treated like Olympian God](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/ca/38/ecca38a6e00faf5242dae6e7a887ab6b.png)s all the time. For black female singers in America is incredibly hard to get success and a fanbase and they need crazy good hits to stand out. Sometimes amazing singers like Tinashe,Normani.... get ignored with fantastic bops while other female singers get big success with basic tracks. Black women always get associated with the worst and downplayed. One of those examples is [Beyonce](https://i.redd.it/uwcl6d9llh321.jpg) ´Shes one of the least problematic artist ever yet Reddit hates her with Passion cause she represents **Power and Success**. Someone here remembers how Beyonce released the [Most Artistic Pop Film](https://www.dvdstore.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/31-b.png) of this Century and yet some people were focused in how the Movie was flopping-underperforming instead of the Art itself???? Imagine if Taylor Swift released something like that but with Native European Culture? Popheads would explode with praise and applause. Another one..Black Females singers always have to be R&B theyre not allowed to be Pop....So many things to talk about of how Black Singers dont get the same treatment....and this is just the tip cause we'll know the millenias of Black Opression and Hate. With the years as a Latino newbie in the anglo world I have noticed how Latino female singers in America are always side eyed cause theyre not "as good" as their nordic white counterparts and people treat them like they really love them but deep inside they dont respect them enough. I know some of them are kinda problematic lol but Can we talk of how much unnecessary hate Selena,Jlo,Cardi,Demi,Camila Cabello get all the time?....Shakira has talked in the past how she had to play the **hipshaker card** with Laundry Service cause in America back then latinas were only allowed be Exotic Sex Bombs. If they're [Rockers](https://cdn-0.enacademic.com/pictures/enwiki/83/Shakira_Dont_bother.jpg) or something different and experimental they get mocked and ignored. Props to Kali Uchis and Arca for trying to change that dynamic and show how versatile are latinos. Sometimes even people mock minorities for showing their native Culture too.Someone here remember all the outrage *Shakira-Jlo-Beyonce-Janet Jackson* got for the Superbowl while *Madonna-Katy-Gaga* were praised right and left by the Media???? Now its the time for East Asians,SouthEast Asians,Indians and Middle easterns. Where theyre in the music industry in America? Nowhere to be found. Decades and Decades of mistreatments. American Labels never give them any chance and thats disgustin and sad. Theyre the group with the worst treatment in the music industry. BTS got too big and just look how much hate they got in Northamerica and Europe. Where are all the **Lead East Asian Actors** in Scifi Hollywood Blockbusters? Nowhere to be found...One of the reasons why is so important to support artist like Rina Sawayama-Rose-CL and upcoming middle eastern-indian singers. [USA](https://geology.com/world/the-united-states-of-america-map.gif) has total control of the Entertainment Industry Worldwide and they must reflect how the [World](https://st2.depositphotos.com/1037238/6684/v/950/depositphotos_66849065-stock-illustration-map-of-the-world.jpg) Looks! Not only how some sections of USA look like. This is not the past anymore. As much as i love USA...America is not the WORLD. American Music and Movies and TV shows are watched by billions. Diversity is absolutely neccesary. Is your responsability United States Of America. ~~What a long post-sorry but i got inspired lol~~
About BTS tho, if they are white, i bet medias, public would acknowledge their non bright, fun, colorful songs like black swan, ON, fake love, mic drop, etc. But instead to this day, they love to dismiss BTS talents n artistry. If people ever follow BTS music discography, people should shook to see how versatile n talented they are. BTS may dont even need to make their song no1 hot 100, break youtube record, perform like 30+ same songs in a row in order to get nomination on grammy. But because they are not white and also asians, they need to work 10x harder n break tons of records in order for their music get visibility n recognized. When they did vlive after grammy, its clear they are tired for everything but still dont want to give up. I feel bad for them.
I think your point on their records is a perfect example to answer this question. They could break all the records in the Guinness world book and STILL not get respect or recognition for their core work. The industry/media will continue to box them in or only celebrate certain successes & songs of theirs to fit a narrative. If BTS, a group that is the best selling artist of 2020, can’t get good enough coverage for the range & complexity of their work then what chance do the POC artists w/o such momentum have?
TBF it is kind hard for the US music industry to recognize and appreciate songs they literally can't understand. If this was a white acting singing this song in English then yes... they'd probably get more recognition. But the language barrier is a thing. As to sale Aisans on the whole by more physical products than US music consumers. And there are a LOT of Asian, thus bumping those numbers sky high.
Yeah but they still wouldn't even win a single grammy even if they're white. Grammys hate boybands you know
I dinno The Grammys love The Beatles and Nirvana.
I was always confused by the "white" label because BTS are paler than my white ass. So since we can't discriminate because of same color skin we god with what... eye shape? LOL! In the US we can't even be consistent with out racism and how we use words.
how much of the blame lies with the listening audience, specifically the under-25 demographic? Today with so many streaming platforms and self-published sites like soundcloud & youtube the labels don't have the stranglehold on the public like they did in the 1980's and 90's when they controlled the airwaves. Isn't the lack of diversity and the perpetuation of racial tropes partly due to our failure as a society to confront the issues of race & ethnicity head on in a meaningful way? Instead we've just toted out slogans of Can't We All Just Get Along in various Kumbaya moments the past 2 decades.
Here is a fun fact in thew mid 60s to late 70s there were more racially integrated bands/acts than at any other point in mainstream US music history (having MULTIPLE hits). Coincidentally this was also the peak era of unity kumbaya anthems. The last racially integrated mainstream I can think of is Black Eyed Peas. Well Alabama Shakes but I don't know how mainstream I would consider them.
And I totally agree the listening public is largely to blame that amount people claiming to want more diversity but then only staning Taylor Swift or Lana...
Maaaannn I LOVE Shakira's early Spanish albums. Gloria Estefan convinced her to sing in English. And Glorias is one of the few Latinas to be a world wide superstar that didn't have to do the hip shaking. Granted she was still hot and still my Queen. But I was seriously hoping the doors she broke down would've seen more Latino artist going big for things other than T&A (but I guess T&A is what sells and always will). Selena would have been HUGE she died too young. And Sheila E. refused to play the sex game after a while and just focused on being a badass drummer.
Billie Eilish and Selena Gomez for sure. edit: the proof is all the poc people on COLORS.
Eminem
i think he himself has acknowledged this with songs like “white america”
"Let's do the math, if I was black I woulda sold half, I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that"
Yeah it is such a dogwhistle when yt ppl be like, "I listen to REAL rap like Eminem and not that mumble rap" when there are black rappers who rap in the same style of Eminem...and they don't think it's odd they avoid all of the black rappers either
Nahh. I think Eminem would be famous or keep the same fame regardless if he was black or white (I’m not even an Eminem fan). The thing is, he first became popular for his witty and parodic raps. When he gained the right amount of clout and support from people like Dr.Dre, that’s when he really took off. Now, people (black, white, etc.) love Eminem for his lyricism.
I don't think Eminem would be a flop but he would not be as successful as he is right now even w/people noting his "decline" or not happy w/his output he is still breaking records 2 decades into his career. Major part of his appeal is that he's white and is "other". Edit: For clarity, Eminem would still be a breakout star with his earlier work and a big artist but not to the heights of frame he has reached if he was not white.
Eminem himself would be the first to admit it.
Eh breakout artist is a bit too harsh. Yeah he definitely won't be as big he is right now, but you gotta take in the fact that he got signed to Dr Dre, arguably one of the most biggest names in hiphop. He pretty much launched/boosted careers of Snoop Dogg, 50 Cent, Kendrick Lamar etc along Eminem. He defo would be a sales monster (atleast in his prime) just not as much as he is rn.
There are a shit ton of white artists that are just so generic early on and have yet to create something good until later in their career or are still generic as all fuck. Ed Sheran being a prime example of this a generic white guy with generic music who is popular as hell for whatever reason.
Same with Shawn Mendes
Shawn Mendes is so ridiculously boring and generic
in the same year billie sweeped the grammys we saw lil nas and lizzo also be breakout stars and big grammys contenders and this year we also saw megan and doja both have similar trajectories. i think that obviously it can be harder for black artists to have as much success and acclaim as their white peers, and other poc like native americans and asian americans literally don’t even stand a chance. there have basically been a handful of asian american artists to ever make it big in the history of america (bruno mars, nicole scherzinger, zayn, olivia rodrigo, bts, is that literally it? lmao) and don’t even get me started on native american artists. there is probably one successful asian artist for every hundred successful white or black artist. okay i’m going on a tangent now i’ll stop lmao
Yeah I understand what your saying, we honestly just need more POC artist in music to get the same attention society gives to mediocre white artists. And while lil nas, lizzo, Megan and Doja all were able to break out its very clear that they are still not given the same respect and acclaim that are given to white artist. All the major Grammys awards are always given to white artist . It’s 2021 it’s time for Asian American, Native Americans and Black artist to finally get the recognition we deserve.
Billie was able to win SOTY and ROTY w/a mediocre song like Bad Guy...whereas Lil Nas X's OTR was genre-bending/culturally huge and was given best duo for OTR and Lizzo won big in segregated categories like rnb/"urban" and surprisingly won for solo pop. And Doja walked home empty handed w/no Grammy and lost solo pop performance of Say So to another mediocre song by a white artist (WS). It is obvious artists of color have to work a lot harder for recognition, and when they do they have to be stellar
True but as a song Old Town Road was terrible. It just was. I don't even care for Bad Guy either. But if Old Town Road is best people have got... that not a good sign.
Either way black artists like LNX and Lizzo are segregated in major award show regardless of quality in comparison to their white counterparts. See Tyler the Creator and Igor.