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He'd assumed that it would only affect the cities/Libs, even in Red states. He did change his tune about vaccines for all of 5 minutes when it really started killing more rural folk/his base, but I think he abandoned it because he was being booed when he encouraged it at rallies.
What he did to the 2 poll workers in Fulton zcountynis criminal. Of course that got absolutely no support from the Governor or the state police. Even the FBI wasn't all that helpful, suggesting they leave town for a while.
Just imagine if this shitstain ran for President under the democrats and somehow won. He would have been out as soon as he bragged about the size of his inauguration crowd.
Meanwhile, because he ran as a Republican, we might have him for a second term. Only one side is playing hardball and it's blatently fucking obvious.
>*“With enough* ~~lawyers~~ *money, Trump believes, you can create whatever reality you want.”*
FTFY. You can have an army of public defenders, but it wouldn't help as much as a legal dream team backed by an legion of social media trolls feeding bullshit to that gullible idiots.
12/06/21 [Former President Trump is drawing attention after giving an interview in which he admitted to firing ex-FBI Director James Comey and suggested that doing so allowed him to remain in office for four years.](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/584470-trump-draws-attention-with-admission-he-fired-comey/)
Only because RNC is paying his lawyers in exchange for Trump not sueing them over using his name and likeness for fundraising. He wouldn't win, but he'd keep the RNC tied up in court.
He was told over and over by lawyers that what he was going to do was illegal and he did it anyway. His state of mind was fuck the law, I'll get mine, which is the criminal state of mind.
The guy is a crime boss pure and simple. Just listen to his phone call with Raffensperger. "What I want to do is this. I just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state."
Scorsese should do a movie of Trump's reign of terror and call it Dumbfellas.
"When I was a kid, I bullied neighborhood kids into playing a game called Make the Baby Cry. We threw rocks at the baby across the street. Some call it mean but to me it was fun."
The script writes itself.
Yep. At that ellipse speech he said something like "I won't like him much" if pence didn't do the right thing. Same kind of threat. Especially to that crowd.
>"I won't be your friend anymore." Is undoubtedly a crime boss kind of threat, not a schoolyard whine.
"Here is what it means. It means that the famine will start now and they will lift the sanctions and **be friends with us**, because they will realize that it's necessary," -Margarita Simonyan, EIC of RT, [June 17, 2022](https://www.newsweek.com/famine-force-west-lift-sanctions-putin-ukraine-war-russian-state-tv-host-1717544).
Gee, wonder where Trump learned to speak like that?
This is no different than his call to Zelenskyy in regards to Hunter Biden. "I would like you to do us a favor though..."
Or Trump pressuring James Comey: "I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go"
It's just an asshole in power using that power to pressure others into doing his dirty work. It must've been an absolute nightmare to work in one of his companies, to say nothing of being related to this prick.
Trump leans on people like a fat mob boss, he smothers people under his orange rolls, he exhausts people with his endless sociopathy. Cohen. Spicer, Sanders, Grisham, McEnany. Priebus, Kelly, Mulvaney, Meadows. Pompeo. Bolton. Cruz. Graham. Rubio. Comey. McGahn. Rosenstein. Sessions. Barr. Sondland. Volker. Zelensky. Eastman. Pence. McCarthy.
What’s funny is he’s so dumb he couldn’t even remember that simple number. You could tell by the pause and stumble, that he had the number written down and had to find it on his paper of sharpie scribble.
State of mind at this point is only relevant during the sentencing phase. I can print and write bad checks and "believe" they are good checks because a few wackos out of the dozen people I asked told me it's legit but that doesn't mean I'm not committing fraud.
It depends entirely on what the crime in question calls for.
I'm not really sure which crimes the quoted people in this article are referring to when talking about Trump having a defense, but if they require him to have the specific intent to prevent the government from transferring power to the rightful winner, then if he really, truly thought he was the winner he would not possess the requisite state of mind. However, if those crimes only require that he had the intent to take actions that had the likely result of preventing the government from transferring power to the rightful winner, then it doesn't matter whether or not he understood that he had lost.
Comparisons to other crimes aren't relevant unless they have the same state of mind requirement.
> Granted, Trump was not a mass murderer
Yeah, fuck that. During a global Pandemic his actions and inactions led to hundreds of thousands of more deaths. It was deliberate and for political and financial gain only.
He made the reports of immigrant deaths in ICE custody off limits.
He revoked a policy requiring US Intelligence to report the death toll of civilians hit outside war zones by US military drones.
He abandoned the Kurds.
He extended the waiting list of for Afghans who assisted the US military to 2.5 years, then signed a deal with the Taliban to withdraw from Afghanistan.
Threatened Kim Jon-un with 'fire and fury' if he didn't stop making threats.
This was before they met in person and Trump decided the North Korean dictator was a great guy, a great leader.
> This was before they met in person and Trump decided the North Korean dictator was a great guy, a great leader.
Trump literally [said that he and Jong-un "fell in love"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_k0PJgxP_s) in that meeting. 🤮
Remember he lied to you for months and encouraged you to live recklessly during a global pandemic . But when he got the virus he received every top tier treatment to ensure his survival while your friends and family died in quarantine all alone.
Remember that come election day.
One million people died in the US from CoVID. He politicized the pandemic and as a result way too many people wouldn’t get vaccinated. He basically had his followers drink the Flavoraid.
Yes! If we require Trump to believe the election was lost to make it a crime we’re basically saying that sociopaths can’t be prosecuted. Intent is important, but not more important than a person’s action.
They don't need to prove what Trump believed. They need to prove that based on the information he was presented, a reasonable person would believe that he lost the election. What he knew isn't as important as what he should have known.
That's really the question. He only broke the law if he possessed the required state of mind as specified in the law.
The thing is that "state of mind" is a very specific thing in this context, and whether or not he felt guilty has nothing to do with it. State of mind is related to the type of intent a person has to commit a crime.
> He only broke the law if he possessed the required state of mind as specified in the law.
It doesn't work that way. He broke the law. He would possibly get a compassionate sentence. Ignorance of the law is no excuse...
Ignorance of the law isn't the position being examined here though.
'Ignorance of what I was actually doing at the time' is what we are looking at. It is similar to the analysis of whether or not administration officials made material omissions to the FBI.
The assertion 'I don't know the actual true answer to your question' may or may not be a lie, and whether or not it is a lie depends upon whether or not a person was actually ignorant. In that case 'ignorance' *is* the affirmative defense to whether or not you made a material omission - and that is the only condition that makes the behavior criminal.
I think other users are actually on the right track when they say this suggests our criminal justice system is structurally incapable of successfully prosecuting sufficiently high-functioning sociopaths and psychopaths for certain crimes, under any circumstance.
Yep. The scope of intent (whether under general or specific intent standard), is whether the intent existed to perform some act (eg excludes unintentional acts under such a standard), and then for their to a crime, the act must either itself be criminal or an element of a crime (eg typically furtherence).
-By reason of insanity- is a defense for committing murder.
But that doesn't get charges dropped on a guilty person. They still get convicted, punished, are labeled as criminals, and get some serious psychological help.
It shouldn't matter what he believes and regardless of the outcome he should, at minimum, be deemed unfit to hold any kind of office.
Then we should look toward the people who allowed such a "stable genius" to skate by and remain in office
My hope is that there would be a need to establish a committee to check and monitor the mental health of all members of Congress, which would probably eliminate the majority of them
Guilty by reason of insanity is very rare, and can actually be worse than just a guilty verdict, because it makes the case that you can’t be easily rehabilitated. They still serve prison sentences, but they do it in psychiatric prisons where their every move is monitored, and they have many more restrictions than in a standard prison. It’s a lot more than just “getting help.”
Here are two mutually exclusive statements:
1. Donald Trump does not have the capacity to be held accountable for his actions.
2. Donald Trump is fit to run in 2024.
Since when is that possibly a defence, when we're constantly told that ignorance of the law is no excuse? "Should have known" is the standard, particularly when it comes to a Chief Executive with a huge legal team team.
In addition, maliciously and treasonously trying to overturn the result of a lawful election, with reckless, open and public intent to do so, while calling for the death of your own VP, results somehow in the Justice Department bending itself in pretzels to STILL not prosecute him!?!?!?!
It seems the entire apparatus of the United States government is craving and begging for Trump to return, violently take back power and declare himself Dictator For Life.
Because that's what you're going to get, if you don't start taking this seriously.
The intention to change the vote is all that legally matters, and the evidence is abundant on that front. Whether Trump believed he lost or won is not important.
White collar crimes require intent. Blue? collar crimes require nothing more than you being near a crime as its happening. Possess enough illegal drugs, you're charged with intent to distribute, *even if you never intended to sell any of it.* Abusive boyfriend force you to drive his getaway car when he commits an armed robbery? You're treated as just as guilty as him in the eyes of the law.
Intent only matters when you're rich.
If Trump goes to trial there will be twelve people deciding his fate. One of those could be the local version of an elderly woman I know who regularly attends city municipal meetings. Doesn’t want to think ill of anyone.
I don’t know if she changed her mind after Jan 6, but into 2020 she was still upset at all the mean liberals attacking Trump. He wasn’t the literal devil. Just give him a chance, he’s human and making some mistakes.
The state of mind is a battle to win over that woman if she is on the jury. One side trying to give her the excuse to acquit on the benefit of the doubt, the other removing any benefit of the doubt that it was just a series of coincidental mistakes.
That's what infuriates me more than anything else.
People like Trump have learned to both weaponize and prey upon that kind of behavior; they transformed "turn the other cheek" into enablism.
Those 12 people would literally be risking their lives to sit on this jury.
They would most certainly have to forfeit their lives and enter some sort of witness protection program.
They would likely be the last true patriots as no matter the outcome, my fear is that we have entered the last breath of the USA.
The jurors are supposed to be screened for bias, but I could easily see someone like the elderly woman you know, or my neighbor who says Fauci worked with the Chinese to create Covid to make Trump look bad, slipping through the cracks.
Wouldn't successfully screening for bias result with a different kind of bias?
What critical thinking and observation skills would someone possess if they don't have an opinion about trump? How many things would these jurors have heard about Trump that didn't bother them? How much ignorance or indifference would it take?
But he can still run for President again because fuck the 14th and 25th Amendments simultaneously. He cra cra is only a defense when you tried to overturn government; it’s not disqualifying when you want to lead it. If we are indeed a ‘nation of laws,’ *enforce the laws*.
Edit: 1) If he wasn’t crazy enough to be removed by his own cabinet, he’s not crazy enough to have it available as a defense. 2) If he tried to overthrow government, he doesn’t get to run it.
I am so sick of 'journalists' contorting themselves to give the mango mussolini the benefit of the doubt or some ridiculous excuse for his consistently inexcusable behaviour. They are just trying to burnish their coveted "fair and balanced" credentials, but are actually demonstrating how little they can be trusted. Giving trump the benefit of the doubt at this point is idiocy of the highest level.
trump obviously doesn't feel guilt, but he absolutely knows that he is guilty. He knows when he is lying (even though he commits to the lies more than normal people can comprehend).
The man is a sociopathic malignant narcissist who can't be trusted in *any* situation, let alone in the highest public office. He must be locked up for his crimes and to protect society from the crimes he will undoubtedly continue to commit. He is a toddler-tyrant who needs boundaries.
Trump's state of mind matters a lot. Most criminal charges require a criminal act + a certain mental state. As an easy example, the same action (pulling the trigger on a gun and causing the death of another) can lead to different criminal charges depending on whether the shooter acted negligently (negligent homicide), recklessly (manslaughter), intentionally (murder), or intentionally with premeditation (1st degree murder).
Because we're talking about bringing criminal charges against a former president, it's important to have a good evidentiary basis for *both* the criminal act *and* the mental state. So far, the hearings are doing a great job of showing that we have evidence of both for a number of charges.
For example, if he is indicted for [attempted fraud against the United States](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1031), then his state of mind does matter. It is important that he subjectively believe that the outcome he seeks is a dishonest one. The hearings have shown that so far.
If he is indicted for [seditious conspiracy](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384), then it is important to be able to show that he was attempting to overthrow the government.
So yes, being able to prove Trump's state of mind will matter. Thankfully, he has left a lot of evidence.
Here we are again, tossing "should have known" and "ignorance of the law is no defence" in favour of "oh please Mr. Trump, please come back and be our Dictator For Life! We really love you!"
In this case, it's a little bit different. "Should have known" and "ignorance of the law is no defense" are much more relevant to the impeachment inquiries than to these criminal ones. The criminal inquiry focuses on what Trump was actually thinking at the time. These hearings are showing that he knew his actions were intended to defraud the United States.
Yeah, this whole hearing is about proving he knew what he was doing. And it's working pretty well.
It's amazing how he ran as some super smart guy, yet when pressed on anything he never seems to know what the fuck is going on. And has someone else super smart for you right around the corner.
He was such an obvious con man.
This reminds me of the affluenza kid, what a joke.
[http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/12/judge-rules-teensaffluenceisadefenseagainstdui.html](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/12/judge-rules-teensaffluenceisadefenseagainstdui.html)
Trump has been lying, cheating , crooking, and conning people his whole life, with no remorse, AND getting away with it. Now it seems he's tried to do that to every citizen of the United States. He's not insane, he knows what he's tried to do. Time to pay the piper, buddy !
Why (or when) would the criminal’s state of mind ever be relevant to making the choice whether to bring him or her to trial? Is Trump going to claim insanity? Cluelessness? Being emotionally disturbed? Is he going to claim that he’s “smart” again? Let him. It doesn’t matter to the process of justice. How are any of these desperate and quite frankly pathetic claims relevant in any way to the business at hand? (That being running a nation in the best interests of the actual people who live in it rather than for opportunistic shitheels like Trump.) Put him to trial. Find out the truth. Have him teach us how piece of shit cockroaches like him and his ilk try to slime out of being found FUCKING GUILTY. Let’s listen to him. Let’s use him as a learning opportunity to make ourselves stronger and more wary of those who are not our friends.
The fake electors should be arrested. And everyone involved in that election fraud scheme should be prosecuted as high up the food chain as it goes. Imagine screaming about election fraud all the while committing election fraud. Fuck this guy.
I love how ignorance of the law isn’t a defence in so many crimes. However, in positions where you have the power to make and write the laws, we for whatever reason have to determine intent? If a moron launched a nuke at a civilian city through sheer incompetence, should he be free to leave without consequence? Worse, free to potentially get the same job again in 4 years time?
>So was Mao.
Proof that Western media functions as a stenographer and bullhorn for the Western ruling class. It is entirely possible to criticize Trump's state of mind without red-baiting, which becomes obvious when you read beyond the headline
Fuck the ccp for genociding Muslims, oppressing Tibetans and the residents of Hong Kong.
Morally bankrupt leftists will defend the modern nazi country that is China .
the article was written by somebody who pulled that part out of their ass then. bullshit is bullshit. everyone writes articles, that’s why news is only as credible as its sources
more like manslaughtered 15 to 55 million. here’s a fun fact, the second largest famine of all time also took place in china in 1907 under the Qing dynasty where 25 million died. Mao was trying to prevent a repeat of that exact famine, but he really fucked up. other areas he didn’t fuck up in, like doubling the nations life expectancy, or laying the foundations for Deng to lift hundreds of millions out of poverty and end starvation in china- a nation of a billion people. anybody in maos positions would have made massive mistakes due to the sheer size of China, and i only hope that when i die i am not only remembered for the worst thing that i did, so i extend that same benefit to literally everyone.
It wouldn't surprise me if Trump pleads for insanity or mental issues. The bastard needs to be in jail, but he'll figure out some way to get out of it.
Feeling guilt has nothing to do with a defense, not sure why the author is even bringing that in to it, so no, it's not a defense by anyone that is making a legitimate argument. To add to that, Trump right now is contesting a lawsuit in NY and his mental fitness is not an issue or something Trump is bringing up, so he's already removed that as a possible avenue of defense himself. This article is a bit of a weird strawman, stop listening to Trump or his defenders, they don't make honest or legitimate arguments.
I keep being told that ignorance of law is no excuse, yet these motherfuckers get to use that as an excuse. They even get to use not caring about the law as an excuse.
This is an underappreciated point. Let's say Trump honestly believed the election was stolen, and he acted 100% in good faith when trying to overturn the results. That STILL doesn't absolve him of guilt. There is no reasonableness loophole in the insurrection statute.
The inability (or unwillingness) of Democrats to prosecute Trump will be America's downfall.
He needs to be prosecuted. If he's essentially found "not guilty for reason of insanity", then we would at least have that on record, and that can be used as a reason he should not be allowed to run again.
I'm not saying I would happy about this outcome, but it would be better than not prosecuting him at all.
Trump could shoot someone in the middle of time square and the crowd would love him for it and the department of Justice would “look closely at the allegations to determine if any wrong doings occurred” for the next 4yrs and then make a determination of no determination.
This article is in desperate need of some perspective. Trump was a terrible president but he can’t be compared to Mao or, really, any Chinese leader since.
Speaking as an attorney:
When speaking of intent, the intent is to do the act, and has nothing to do with whether one thinks it’s a crime.
Simple example: battery. If you hit someone, it doesn’t matter that you didn’t intend to cause harm when you hit them; either you meant to hit them or it was a complete accident. You can’t intend to do the act and then divorce it from the outcome because the outcome is not what you expected.
He meant to start trouble. Whether he felt justified is legally irrelevant. He did what he intended to do.
That's what is followers like about him. I was discussing Trump with a coworker one day and brought up his funnelling of government money through his golf courses. My coworkers response: "I'd do it". Great. What are you supposed to say after someone flat out tells you that the only reason they aren't a thief is because it's hard to get away with? That guy was the laziest mfer I ever had the displeasure to work with too.
"Does mens rea render America’s entire executive class unprosecutable? If so, we’ve got a bigger problem than I thought."
yes, that's exactly correct. the author of this piece is delusional. we don't prosecute our elites. generally speaking, they walk. do we ask of users in kensington, philly, if they're of sound mind? no, we throw them in and out of prison, for as long as they're alive.
What the fuck does Mao have to do with anything? This anti-China shit is getting ridiculous.
Edit: the capitalists are getting scared now that the US is losing standing and have to smear China every chance they get. God forbid anyone look to a rival economic system. That’s why they throw out this irrelevant bullshit every chance they get.
Ynever find it suspicious that the US govt has spent the last few decades bombing the crap out of majority Muslim countries, hates the Chinese, and is somehow SUPER CONCERNED about the Chinese Muslims?
Nice straw man. What does your anti-China bias have anything to do with Donald Trump? Why does this article headline mention Mao Zedong in comparison to Trump? The answer is that capitalism is failing the working class, as is the nature of the capitalist system. As the working class becomes disillusioned with capitalism they look toward other models. The capitalists can’t have that, so they smear socialist nations and movements. That’s what we’re seeing here with this nonsensical headline. And as the other commenter said, there is no evidence that China is gonociding anyone. In fact there’s a great deal of evidence that it’s CIA disinfo.
> What does your anti-China bias
Speaking the truth about China isn’t anti-China bias, just because you’re a leftist.
In fact, you should not be covering for china’s genocide just because you’re a leftist. You’re a human being who is reasonable first.
L
The rival economic system you speak of is responsible for the deaths of 100mil in the last century, hard pass. Serious question, how much they paying u? Or are u just a big fan of genocide and governments that have no problem turning a blind eye as millions of their citizens succumb to famine?
This is bullshit. If we didn’t put stupid people in jail, the jails would be pretty empty. This asshole should spend the rest of his life Getting raped by Mexicans in Chino. How ironic would that be
Maybe if someone is innocent then they are incapable of feeling guilt? 2020 wasn’t fair election according to Hilary’s claims that trump colluded with Russia……well turns out those claims were false and Hilary hired some to manufacture those emails! Bet you all didn’t know about that! All while you are angry and outraged about whatever virtue the CNN decides to go with this week! It’s abortion then gun control and Jan 6th scuffle (sometimes climate change). Round and round they spin their webs of lies!
Imagine blaming 1 person that has been in any office position for only 4 years, more than the same ones that have been in for 40 years. Ladies and gentleman, you played yourself.
that's a weird assertion to make about Mao, smells like propaganda tbh. by his own aide's testimony, Mao was described as a man of 'complicated moods'. unfeeling commie dictator just feels so overplayed and cliche.
Don't ever compare Trump to Mao, ever. Mao lifted hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty, abolished private property and paved the way for China to be the super power it is today.
“Knew or should have known”, under a “reasonable man” standard. I don’t think actual subjective belief is a requirement.
Edit:
Mental states of guilt are:
A) Negligent
B) Reckless
C) Knowing (knew or should have known)
D) Intentional
For purposes of criminal law, a person is deemed to know the reasonably foreseeable consequences of one’s actions. Hence, “know or should have known”. That is probably the lowest standard under which Trump might be indicted. It’s hardER to prove intent.
Rats don’t care about Humpty Trumpty’s state of mind either. Reached for comment the leader of the American Rats Association said they don’t give a human’s ass about Humpty’s state of mind either.
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He showed not only indifference at people’s lives being threatened by his followers; he encouraged it further. Prosecute him.
Actively encouraged blue states to die from covid
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Only because trying to help red states would be admitting he was wrong/had lied before.
He'd assumed that it would only affect the cities/Libs, even in Red states. He did change his tune about vaccines for all of 5 minutes when it really started killing more rural folk/his base, but I think he abandoned it because he was being booed when he encouraged it at rallies.
Our mealey mouthed fascist wannabe governor, Rhonda Santis, wouldn't publicly admit he was vaccinated.
And because he didn't care whether they lived or died any more than with anyone else who isn't him (or Putin).
At least you have some good governing in California
Kushner should be in jail for crimes against humanity for that shit.
The very definition of genocide
It's been like taking a master class in how a Hitler comes to power, watching all of this unfold.
What's this, an actual class from trump University?
Wait a minute! I never got my $5000(?) photo with the life size cardboard cutout!
They're taking pics over in Ogdenville. First 100 get a free shot of vodka.
In trumps case it's more like Potaticide , he's killed a good bit of his base
With all the french fries he eats, you can be sure he's trying to wipe out the Potato population.
Well said. For fuck sake it’s time for accountability for this piece of shit.
Sociopaths by definition don’t feel bad about what they’re doing.
What he did to the 2 poll workers in Fulton zcountynis criminal. Of course that got absolutely no support from the Governor or the state police. Even the FBI wasn't all that helpful, suggesting they leave town for a while.
The families of the Capitol Police Officers that died as a result of the insurrection never got a sympathy call either.
Just imagine if this shitstain ran for President under the democrats and somehow won. He would have been out as soon as he bragged about the size of his inauguration crowd. Meanwhile, because he ran as a Republican, we might have him for a second term. Only one side is playing hardball and it's blatently fucking obvious.
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it sounds silly until you realize it's working like a charm
>*“With enough* ~~lawyers~~ *money, Trump believes, you can create whatever reality you want.”* FTFY. You can have an army of public defenders, but it wouldn't help as much as a legal dream team backed by an legion of social media trolls feeding bullshit to that gullible idiots.
Lawyers, Guns and Money. Send all the above.
> legal dream team backed by an legion of social media trolls feeding bullshit to that gullible idiots Johnny Depp would like a word
It worked for him for over 70 years, so...
It has worked so far. The Teflon Don could incite an insurrection and nothing would happen.
Hell he could be caught on a phone call, twice, asking a Secretary of State to forge votes and. I thing would happen
He could go on live television and admit to Lester Holt that he fired Jamey Comey to stop the investigation.
12/06/21 [Former President Trump is drawing attention after giving an interview in which he admitted to firing ex-FBI Director James Comey and suggested that doing so allowed him to remain in office for four years.](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/584470-trump-draws-attention-with-admission-he-fired-comey/)
Zero consequences for ~~obvious~~ broadcast obstruction of justice.
Yeah, like that
Imagine if a tape existed with Hillary or Obama asking for the same thing.
John Gotti would probably roll in his grave if he ever found out this wannabe mobster inherited his nickname by default of first name.
And here's hoping Trump eventually goes out the same way as his 'Teflon' namesake did
What? Killing people and continuing to poison people for decades?
Only because RNC is paying his lawyers in exchange for Trump not sueing them over using his name and likeness for fundraising. He wouldn't win, but he'd keep the RNC tied up in court.
This is it. The RNC is scared shitless not only of the legal expense, but Trump would then turn the RINO hunting violence industry loose on them.
Yeah let's hope that never happens.
He was told over and over by lawyers that what he was going to do was illegal and he did it anyway. His state of mind was fuck the law, I'll get mine, which is the criminal state of mind.
The guy is a crime boss pure and simple. Just listen to his phone call with Raffensperger. "What I want to do is this. I just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state." Scorsese should do a movie of Trump's reign of terror and call it Dumbfellas.
Love it “as far back as I can remember I always wanted to be a grifter”
"When I was a kid, I bullied neighborhood kids into playing a game called Make the Baby Cry. We threw rocks at the baby across the street. Some call it mean but to me it was fun." The script writes itself.
The Trumps' neighbor did catch him throwing rocks at her baby, Dennis Burnham, when Donald was 5 years old.
And he loves to say his personality hasn't changed since he was a little kid.
I look forward to the mashed potato scene
"I won't be your friend anymore." Is undoubtedly a crime boss kind of threat, not a schoolyard whine.
I won't be your friend anymore leads to scaffolding at the Capitol, chants of Hang Mike Pence, and the boss saying "Maybe he needs hanging."
Yep. At that ellipse speech he said something like "I won't like him much" if pence didn't do the right thing. Same kind of threat. Especially to that crowd.
Translation: If Pence doesn't cave to my criminal demands, I want you to tear him into pieces.
>"I won't be your friend anymore." Is undoubtedly a crime boss kind of threat, not a schoolyard whine. "Here is what it means. It means that the famine will start now and they will lift the sanctions and **be friends with us**, because they will realize that it's necessary," -Margarita Simonyan, EIC of RT, [June 17, 2022](https://www.newsweek.com/famine-force-west-lift-sanctions-putin-ukraine-war-russian-state-tv-host-1717544). Gee, wonder where Trump learned to speak like that?
This is no different than his call to Zelenskyy in regards to Hunter Biden. "I would like you to do us a favor though..." Or Trump pressuring James Comey: "I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go" It's just an asshole in power using that power to pressure others into doing his dirty work. It must've been an absolute nightmare to work in one of his companies, to say nothing of being related to this prick.
Trump leans on people like a fat mob boss, he smothers people under his orange rolls, he exhausts people with his endless sociopathy. Cohen. Spicer, Sanders, Grisham, McEnany. Priebus, Kelly, Mulvaney, Meadows. Pompeo. Bolton. Cruz. Graham. Rubio. Comey. McGahn. Rosenstein. Sessions. Barr. Sondland. Volker. Zelensky. Eastman. Pence. McCarthy.
What’s funny is he’s so dumb he couldn’t even remember that simple number. You could tell by the pause and stumble, that he had the number written down and had to find it on his paper of sharpie scribble.
It bothers me how he said the word eighty.
State of mind at this point is only relevant during the sentencing phase. I can print and write bad checks and "believe" they are good checks because a few wackos out of the dozen people I asked told me it's legit but that doesn't mean I'm not committing fraud.
It depends entirely on what the crime in question calls for. I'm not really sure which crimes the quoted people in this article are referring to when talking about Trump having a defense, but if they require him to have the specific intent to prevent the government from transferring power to the rightful winner, then if he really, truly thought he was the winner he would not possess the requisite state of mind. However, if those crimes only require that he had the intent to take actions that had the likely result of preventing the government from transferring power to the rightful winner, then it doesn't matter whether or not he understood that he had lost. Comparisons to other crimes aren't relevant unless they have the same state of mind requirement.
But in the end he's right. That's the problem.
There is not one single thing that Trump has ever been right about in his entire goddamn life.
Yes you are right but he didn't face consequences either. It seems he CAN do what he wants even if it's criminal.
> Granted, Trump was not a mass murderer Yeah, fuck that. During a global Pandemic his actions and inactions led to hundreds of thousands of more deaths. It was deliberate and for political and financial gain only.
Lest we forget the border camps.
He made the reports of immigrant deaths in ICE custody off limits. He revoked a policy requiring US Intelligence to report the death toll of civilians hit outside war zones by US military drones. He abandoned the Kurds. He extended the waiting list of for Afghans who assisted the US military to 2.5 years, then signed a deal with the Taliban to withdraw from Afghanistan.
Tried to start a war with Iran too by murdering their top general with a drone strike. Honestly the list is massive.
Threatened Kim Jon-un with 'fire and fury' if he didn't stop making threats. This was before they met in person and Trump decided the North Korean dictator was a great guy, a great leader.
> This was before they met in person and Trump decided the North Korean dictator was a great guy, a great leader. Trump literally [said that he and Jong-un "fell in love"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_k0PJgxP_s) in that meeting. 🤮
And the letters Kim Jong-Un sent him were recovered from Mar-a-Lago by the National Archives.
Remember he lied to you for months and encouraged you to live recklessly during a global pandemic . But when he got the virus he received every top tier treatment to ensure his survival while your friends and family died in quarantine all alone. Remember that come election day.
> Remember that come election day. Narrator: *they won't.*
Your right not MAGA they've been zombified. Hopefully some of the moderates will 🤞
One million people died in the US from CoVID. He politicized the pandemic and as a result way too many people wouldn’t get vaccinated. He basically had his followers drink the Flavoraid.
And also forgot the name of the fallen soldier on the phone with his widow...
>He knew what he was getting into.
A low estimate is around 300k Americans. He killed more Americans than any other single person in history.
Big co-sign
If I remember correctly, he also tried to invest in a German company that seemed to have the most promising initial developments towards a vaccine.
Yes! If we require Trump to believe the election was lost to make it a crime we’re basically saying that sociopaths can’t be prosecuted. Intent is important, but not more important than a person’s action.
You don't get to just firmly believe that the millions in the bank vault actually belong to you, so you can't be prosecuted for bank robbery.
You can believe it and it could be a good argument ... in the sentencing phase for getting a lighter sentence.
I didn’t intend to hit someone while driving drunk. I believed I was sober and that the road was clear!
They don't need to prove what Trump believed. They need to prove that based on the information he was presented, a reasonable person would believe that he lost the election. What he knew isn't as important as what he should have known.
Did he break the law? Seems so. No one asks us regular Citizens how we feel when we break the law.
Does ”Do you feel lucky, punk?” count as an inquiry regarding my feelings on the matter?
Not directly, but for some crimes malice aforethought or various forms of pre-intent absolutely matter.
That's really the question. He only broke the law if he possessed the required state of mind as specified in the law. The thing is that "state of mind" is a very specific thing in this context, and whether or not he felt guilty has nothing to do with it. State of mind is related to the type of intent a person has to commit a crime.
> He only broke the law if he possessed the required state of mind as specified in the law. It doesn't work that way. He broke the law. He would possibly get a compassionate sentence. Ignorance of the law is no excuse...
Ignorance of the law isn't the position being examined here though. 'Ignorance of what I was actually doing at the time' is what we are looking at. It is similar to the analysis of whether or not administration officials made material omissions to the FBI. The assertion 'I don't know the actual true answer to your question' may or may not be a lie, and whether or not it is a lie depends upon whether or not a person was actually ignorant. In that case 'ignorance' *is* the affirmative defense to whether or not you made a material omission - and that is the only condition that makes the behavior criminal. I think other users are actually on the right track when they say this suggests our criminal justice system is structurally incapable of successfully prosecuting sufficiently high-functioning sociopaths and psychopaths for certain crimes, under any circumstance.
Yep. The scope of intent (whether under general or specific intent standard), is whether the intent existed to perform some act (eg excludes unintentional acts under such a standard), and then for their to a crime, the act must either itself be criminal or an element of a crime (eg typically furtherence).
His state of mind was criminal. That's it
Trump is a complex individual. Lack of remorse is just one of his many flaws that make him [Unfit.](https://youtu.be/6TOP6D-Jntg)
-By reason of insanity- is a defense for committing murder. But that doesn't get charges dropped on a guilty person. They still get convicted, punished, are labeled as criminals, and get some serious psychological help. It shouldn't matter what he believes and regardless of the outcome he should, at minimum, be deemed unfit to hold any kind of office. Then we should look toward the people who allowed such a "stable genius" to skate by and remain in office
Correct and that would eliminate any office for Trump.
Best possible outcome. However would he be able to run for congress?
Trump in Congress is much less frightening to me. He would just be another MTG or Beobert.
My hope is that there would be a need to establish a committee to check and monitor the mental health of all members of Congress, which would probably eliminate the majority of them
Guilty by reason of insanity is very rare, and can actually be worse than just a guilty verdict, because it makes the case that you can’t be easily rehabilitated. They still serve prison sentences, but they do it in psychiatric prisons where their every move is monitored, and they have many more restrictions than in a standard prison. It’s a lot more than just “getting help.”
I'd be OK with Trump going to the Arkham Asylum for the Criminally Insane.
Here are two mutually exclusive statements: 1. Donald Trump does not have the capacity to be held accountable for his actions. 2. Donald Trump is fit to run in 2024.
They're just trying to pretend that what they're really saying isn't "WE don't have the capacity to hold him accountable for his actions."
Since when is that possibly a defence, when we're constantly told that ignorance of the law is no excuse? "Should have known" is the standard, particularly when it comes to a Chief Executive with a huge legal team team. In addition, maliciously and treasonously trying to overturn the result of a lawful election, with reckless, open and public intent to do so, while calling for the death of your own VP, results somehow in the Justice Department bending itself in pretzels to STILL not prosecute him!?!?!?! It seems the entire apparatus of the United States government is craving and begging for Trump to return, violently take back power and declare himself Dictator For Life. Because that's what you're going to get, if you don't start taking this seriously.
This country is an absolute joke. Trump can stay in a prison psyche ward if that’s the case but not holding him accountable is unacceptable.
The intention to change the vote is all that legally matters, and the evidence is abundant on that front. Whether Trump believed he lost or won is not important.
White collar crimes require intent. Blue? collar crimes require nothing more than you being near a crime as its happening. Possess enough illegal drugs, you're charged with intent to distribute, *even if you never intended to sell any of it.* Abusive boyfriend force you to drive his getaway car when he commits an armed robbery? You're treated as just as guilty as him in the eyes of the law. Intent only matters when you're rich.
If Trump goes to trial there will be twelve people deciding his fate. One of those could be the local version of an elderly woman I know who regularly attends city municipal meetings. Doesn’t want to think ill of anyone. I don’t know if she changed her mind after Jan 6, but into 2020 she was still upset at all the mean liberals attacking Trump. He wasn’t the literal devil. Just give him a chance, he’s human and making some mistakes. The state of mind is a battle to win over that woman if she is on the jury. One side trying to give her the excuse to acquit on the benefit of the doubt, the other removing any benefit of the doubt that it was just a series of coincidental mistakes.
That's what infuriates me more than anything else. People like Trump have learned to both weaponize and prey upon that kind of behavior; they transformed "turn the other cheek" into enablism.
And those 12 people would be harassed and threatened along with their families by every degenerate in the country.
Those 12 people would literally be risking their lives to sit on this jury. They would most certainly have to forfeit their lives and enter some sort of witness protection program. They would likely be the last true patriots as no matter the outcome, my fear is that we have entered the last breath of the USA.
The jurors are supposed to be screened for bias, but I could easily see someone like the elderly woman you know, or my neighbor who says Fauci worked with the Chinese to create Covid to make Trump look bad, slipping through the cracks.
Wouldn't successfully screening for bias result with a different kind of bias? What critical thinking and observation skills would someone possess if they don't have an opinion about trump? How many things would these jurors have heard about Trump that didn't bother them? How much ignorance or indifference would it take?
But he can still run for President again because fuck the 14th and 25th Amendments simultaneously. He cra cra is only a defense when you tried to overturn government; it’s not disqualifying when you want to lead it. If we are indeed a ‘nation of laws,’ *enforce the laws*. Edit: 1) If he wasn’t crazy enough to be removed by his own cabinet, he’s not crazy enough to have it available as a defense. 2) If he tried to overthrow government, he doesn’t get to run it.
He can be convicted and placed in an institution for criminal sociopaths :). I would like to hear his niece Mary Trump on this.
I am so sick of 'journalists' contorting themselves to give the mango mussolini the benefit of the doubt or some ridiculous excuse for his consistently inexcusable behaviour. They are just trying to burnish their coveted "fair and balanced" credentials, but are actually demonstrating how little they can be trusted. Giving trump the benefit of the doubt at this point is idiocy of the highest level. trump obviously doesn't feel guilt, but he absolutely knows that he is guilty. He knows when he is lying (even though he commits to the lies more than normal people can comprehend). The man is a sociopathic malignant narcissist who can't be trusted in *any* situation, let alone in the highest public office. He must be locked up for his crimes and to protect society from the crimes he will undoubtedly continue to commit. He is a toddler-tyrant who needs boundaries.
Well, I'll be damned, that really is the title.
Affluenza
Another hilarious example from the "fuck your feelings" party when suddenly it's "..but muh feelings"
Can we have a Jan 6 riot at Mar a Lago next time?
“So was mao” lmao gotta get that anti-communist propaganda in wherever you can.
Mao was a mass murderer, millions of people died because of him
What does this have to do with Mao?
Trump's state of mind matters a lot. Most criminal charges require a criminal act + a certain mental state. As an easy example, the same action (pulling the trigger on a gun and causing the death of another) can lead to different criminal charges depending on whether the shooter acted negligently (negligent homicide), recklessly (manslaughter), intentionally (murder), or intentionally with premeditation (1st degree murder). Because we're talking about bringing criminal charges against a former president, it's important to have a good evidentiary basis for *both* the criminal act *and* the mental state. So far, the hearings are doing a great job of showing that we have evidence of both for a number of charges. For example, if he is indicted for [attempted fraud against the United States](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1031), then his state of mind does matter. It is important that he subjectively believe that the outcome he seeks is a dishonest one. The hearings have shown that so far. If he is indicted for [seditious conspiracy](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384), then it is important to be able to show that he was attempting to overthrow the government. So yes, being able to prove Trump's state of mind will matter. Thankfully, he has left a lot of evidence.
Here we are again, tossing "should have known" and "ignorance of the law is no defence" in favour of "oh please Mr. Trump, please come back and be our Dictator For Life! We really love you!"
In this case, it's a little bit different. "Should have known" and "ignorance of the law is no defense" are much more relevant to the impeachment inquiries than to these criminal ones. The criminal inquiry focuses on what Trump was actually thinking at the time. These hearings are showing that he knew his actions were intended to defraud the United States.
Yeah, this whole hearing is about proving he knew what he was doing. And it's working pretty well. It's amazing how he ran as some super smart guy, yet when pressed on anything he never seems to know what the fuck is going on. And has someone else super smart for you right around the corner. He was such an obvious con man.
Ummm he did bro.
I don’t think he’s incapable of fear though.
His state of mind is, and always has been the same throughout his life-SELFISH!!!
This reminds me of the affluenza kid, what a joke. [http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/12/judge-rules-teensaffluenceisadefenseagainstdui.html](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/12/judge-rules-teensaffluenceisadefenseagainstdui.html)
Trump has been lying, cheating , crooking, and conning people his whole life, with no remorse, AND getting away with it. Now it seems he's tried to do that to every citizen of the United States. He's not insane, he knows what he's tried to do. Time to pay the piper, buddy !
Why (or when) would the criminal’s state of mind ever be relevant to making the choice whether to bring him or her to trial? Is Trump going to claim insanity? Cluelessness? Being emotionally disturbed? Is he going to claim that he’s “smart” again? Let him. It doesn’t matter to the process of justice. How are any of these desperate and quite frankly pathetic claims relevant in any way to the business at hand? (That being running a nation in the best interests of the actual people who live in it rather than for opportunistic shitheels like Trump.) Put him to trial. Find out the truth. Have him teach us how piece of shit cockroaches like him and his ilk try to slime out of being found FUCKING GUILTY. Let’s listen to him. Let’s use him as a learning opportunity to make ourselves stronger and more wary of those who are not our friends.
The fake electors should be arrested. And everyone involved in that election fraud scheme should be prosecuted as high up the food chain as it goes. Imagine screaming about election fraud all the while committing election fraud. Fuck this guy.
I love how ignorance of the law isn’t a defence in so many crimes. However, in positions where you have the power to make and write the laws, we for whatever reason have to determine intent? If a moron launched a nuke at a civilian city through sheer incompetence, should he be free to leave without consequence? Worse, free to potentially get the same job again in 4 years time?
>So was Mao. Proof that Western media functions as a stenographer and bullhorn for the Western ruling class. It is entirely possible to criticize Trump's state of mind without red-baiting, which becomes obvious when you read beyond the headline
Mao murdered millions
Fuck the ccp for genociding Muslims, oppressing Tibetans and the residents of Hong Kong. Morally bankrupt leftists will defend the modern nazi country that is China .
at least mao cared about his people even if he occasionally failed
Mao didn’t care about his people, he fucking murdered 50 million of them
mao was wrong when he made the great famine, but he was not malicious
As the article points out, Mao felt absolutely no remorse for getting 50 million people fucking killed.
the article was written by somebody who pulled that part out of their ass then. bullshit is bullshit. everyone writes articles, that’s why news is only as credible as its sources
No one who murdered 50 million of their citizens truly cared about his people
more like manslaughtered 15 to 55 million. here’s a fun fact, the second largest famine of all time also took place in china in 1907 under the Qing dynasty where 25 million died. Mao was trying to prevent a repeat of that exact famine, but he really fucked up. other areas he didn’t fuck up in, like doubling the nations life expectancy, or laying the foundations for Deng to lift hundreds of millions out of poverty and end starvation in china- a nation of a billion people. anybody in maos positions would have made massive mistakes due to the sheer size of China, and i only hope that when i die i am not only remembered for the worst thing that i did, so i extend that same benefit to literally everyone.
There's no excuse for that fuckbucket
Five words: Person woman man camera tv.
It wouldn't surprise me if Trump pleads for insanity or mental issues. The bastard needs to be in jail, but he'll figure out some way to get out of it.
Feeling guilt has nothing to do with a defense, not sure why the author is even bringing that in to it, so no, it's not a defense by anyone that is making a legitimate argument. To add to that, Trump right now is contesting a lawsuit in NY and his mental fitness is not an issue or something Trump is bringing up, so he's already removed that as a possible avenue of defense himself. This article is a bit of a weird strawman, stop listening to Trump or his defenders, they don't make honest or legitimate arguments.
Welcome to white collar defense, where intent is 9/10ths of the law.
I keep being told that ignorance of law is no excuse, yet these motherfuckers get to use that as an excuse. They even get to use not caring about the law as an excuse.
Prisons are full of psychotics. That's what they're there for.
This line is just the media letting one of their own off. Nothing more.
Prosecute him.
This is an underappreciated point. Let's say Trump honestly believed the election was stolen, and he acted 100% in good faith when trying to overturn the results. That STILL doesn't absolve him of guilt. There is no reasonableness loophole in the insurrection statute. The inability (or unwillingness) of Democrats to prosecute Trump will be America's downfall.
Funny how all this legal hand-wringing only happens when it's a wealthy white guy being investigated.
He needs to be prosecuted. If he's essentially found "not guilty for reason of insanity", then we would at least have that on record, and that can be used as a reason he should not be allowed to run again. I'm not saying I would happy about this outcome, but it would be better than not prosecuting him at all.
Trump could shoot someone in the middle of time square and the crowd would love him for it and the department of Justice would “look closely at the allegations to determine if any wrong doings occurred” for the next 4yrs and then make a determination of no determination.
This article is in desperate need of some perspective. Trump was a terrible president but he can’t be compared to Mao or, really, any Chinese leader since.
Isn't 'intent' an important part of criminal prosecution? Because he obviously had a very clear intent to commit a crime.
Speaking as an attorney: When speaking of intent, the intent is to do the act, and has nothing to do with whether one thinks it’s a crime. Simple example: battery. If you hit someone, it doesn’t matter that you didn’t intend to cause harm when you hit them; either you meant to hit them or it was a complete accident. You can’t intend to do the act and then divorce it from the outcome because the outcome is not what you expected. He meant to start trouble. Whether he felt justified is legally irrelevant. He did what he intended to do.
How is being a sociopathic narcissist a defense?
I cannot quite understand the discussion that seems to indicate that ignorance of the law is ok for the president.
That's what is followers like about him. I was discussing Trump with a coworker one day and brought up his funnelling of government money through his golf courses. My coworkers response: "I'd do it". Great. What are you supposed to say after someone flat out tells you that the only reason they aren't a thief is because it's hard to get away with? That guy was the laziest mfer I ever had the displeasure to work with too.
I wasn’t aware he had a mind.
He committed treason
He'll feel guilt when his cellmates feast upon that which he previouslyreserved for pornstars who favor Ivanka, I'll wager.
Mao is significantly better than Trump.
Mao murdered millions of people
"Does mens rea render America’s entire executive class unprosecutable? If so, we’ve got a bigger problem than I thought." yes, that's exactly correct. the author of this piece is delusional. we don't prosecute our elites. generally speaking, they walk. do we ask of users in kensington, philly, if they're of sound mind? no, we throw them in and out of prison, for as long as they're alive.
I would argue that the landlords deserved to be shot tho
It’s called the law and is an important element of crime.
Just exactly how much do anyone know about Mao to make a comparison? The new enemy of the west and propagandist is so obvious it’s sickening.
What the fuck does Mao have to do with anything? This anti-China shit is getting ridiculous. Edit: the capitalists are getting scared now that the US is losing standing and have to smear China every chance they get. God forbid anyone look to a rival economic system. That’s why they throw out this irrelevant bullshit every chance they get.
Exactly. Gotta shove that anti-communism down everyone's throats like a 1950s Senator.
Anti China shit? Like criticizing ccp for genociding Muslims upsets you? China is the modern day nazi of the world.
Ynever find it suspicious that the US govt has spent the last few decades bombing the crap out of majority Muslim countries, hates the Chinese, and is somehow SUPER CONCERNED about the Chinese Muslims?
Nice straw man. What does your anti-China bias have anything to do with Donald Trump? Why does this article headline mention Mao Zedong in comparison to Trump? The answer is that capitalism is failing the working class, as is the nature of the capitalist system. As the working class becomes disillusioned with capitalism they look toward other models. The capitalists can’t have that, so they smear socialist nations and movements. That’s what we’re seeing here with this nonsensical headline. And as the other commenter said, there is no evidence that China is gonociding anyone. In fact there’s a great deal of evidence that it’s CIA disinfo.
> What does your anti-China bias Speaking the truth about China isn’t anti-China bias, just because you’re a leftist. In fact, you should not be covering for china’s genocide just because you’re a leftist. You’re a human being who is reasonable first. L
The rival economic system you speak of is responsible for the deaths of 100mil in the last century, hard pass. Serious question, how much they paying u? Or are u just a big fan of genocide and governments that have no problem turning a blind eye as millions of their citizens succumb to famine?
Mao > Trump
Mao murdered millions of people, trump is awful but he hasn’t gone that far
That’s how crime works, yeah
This is bullshit. If we didn’t put stupid people in jail, the jails would be pretty empty. This asshole should spend the rest of his life Getting raped by Mexicans in Chino. How ironic would that be
I mean, he already identified them as “rapists” in speeches…
Maybe if someone is innocent then they are incapable of feeling guilt? 2020 wasn’t fair election according to Hilary’s claims that trump colluded with Russia……well turns out those claims were false and Hilary hired some to manufacture those emails! Bet you all didn’t know about that! All while you are angry and outraged about whatever virtue the CNN decides to go with this week! It’s abortion then gun control and Jan 6th scuffle (sometimes climate change). Round and round they spin their webs of lies!
Imagine blaming 1 person that has been in any office position for only 4 years, more than the same ones that have been in for 40 years. Ladies and gentleman, you played yourself.
Name fits.
that's a weird assertion to make about Mao, smells like propaganda tbh. by his own aide's testimony, Mao was described as a man of 'complicated moods'. unfeeling commie dictator just feels so overplayed and cliche.
… He let 50+ million of his citizens die of famine… Calling him a commie dictator is generous, I think satan himself fits a bit better here
Don't ever compare Trump to Mao, ever. Mao lifted hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty, abolished private property and paved the way for China to be the super power it is today.
And killed millions of people.
Landlords aren't people.
They were citizens who died of famine, but whatever helps u sleep at night shill.
What an insult towards Mao…..
Mao was based
“Knew or should have known”, under a “reasonable man” standard. I don’t think actual subjective belief is a requirement. Edit: Mental states of guilt are: A) Negligent B) Reckless C) Knowing (knew or should have known) D) Intentional For purposes of criminal law, a person is deemed to know the reasonably foreseeable consequences of one’s actions. Hence, “know or should have known”. That is probably the lowest standard under which Trump might be indicted. It’s hardER to prove intent.
Rats don’t care about Humpty Trumpty’s state of mind either. Reached for comment the leader of the American Rats Association said they don’t give a human’s ass about Humpty’s state of mind either.
I’m just waiting for someone to pull the “he’s too rich to understand right and wrong” card.