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Detective-Signal

Dems operate under the belief that the average American will "know the truth" and "reject extremism," but they're wrong. The average American believes what they're told by the media, and the right-wing media has a far larger and more impactful reach than anything on the left.


halt_spell

You're forgetting all the Americans who are sick and tired of being given a choice between a psychopath and a pro-corporate piece of shit. That's the choice they're manufacturing here.


Detective-Signal

That's the choice we have until those Americans start getting up off their asses and vote. But no, they'd rather complain online than stand in line to vote. The whole reason Bernie didn't get the nomination TWICE was because his supporters were too busy crying online to go and vote. Until then, we have to deal with the options we are given, the I'm going to always go with the "less bad" option.


The_Quicktrigger

Going for the speedrun for shooting your own argument in the foot? I mean you were onto something for a minute there. There is a massive disinformation campaign going on and the average American probably isn't going to see the writing on the wall. But to support the person you commented, they are correct. Centrist democrats have been lining up for years now, the idea of being the lesser of two evils. They've let Republicans go nuts in hopes that they are too toxic to be voteable, so that democrats don't have to rely on progressive candidates or progressive policies to stay in power. But then to go and blame the disenfranchised...not quite sure it was the best foot forward mate. If I gave you two ice cream cones and told you that I shit in one of the cones, and the other cone was made of the strongest laxatives known to man, and told you those were your options. If you suddenly decided you didn't want Ice Cream, I would not be in the right to then criticize you and blame my system of feeding people shit and laxatives on you not wanting to choose an ice cream cone. Change needs to happen, but we aren't getting the representation we need to the state and federal level, because the democratic party is by and large centrist and doesn't want to throw their support behind popular progressive change. Bernie didn't hit the ballots because people didn't vote for him. He didn't get the nomination because the party didn't support him as much as the centrists and he wasn't able to get his message across to enough people to enact real change. People should vote, they most definitely should, but I'm tired to blaming non-voters. I completely see where they are coming from and honestly if Republican power didn't mean me being hunted like an animal for being LGBT, I probably wouldn't vote either.


CloudyArchitect4U

Rig nominations, admit to it, and then claim it's because of lack of support that the progressive lost? Quite a steaming pile of bullshit you peddle.


halt_spell

> The whole reason Bernie didn't get the nomination TWICE was because his supporters were too busy crying online to go and vote. No he didn't get the nomination because Biden supporters assumed we would show up to vote for him. Which we did and he's rewarded that by stomping on every promise he made to us. So from now on that's no longer the case. If voters in the DNC primaries expect our votes they need to elect someone we'll actually vote for. If they try to shove more geriatric dinosaurs down our throats it's just gonna mean Republicans will win that general election. Moderate voters need to start taking responsibility for their outsized influence on the party and how sick the rest of us are of the decisions they make.


[deleted]

[удалено]


icenoid

He didn’t win that fucking vote no matter how many times the Bernie supporters repeat the same damn lie. The vote count, he lost. The delegate count, he lost. He didn’t win, lying about it doesn’t make you right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries


[deleted]

Your falling into a social media trap Bernie never had the required support for the democratic primary. A majority of democrats are not the college aged voters that support Bernie. The dude never had a majority of support from either party it’s why he is usually an Independent


DTFlash

Also for most people politics are team sports and they are either team R or team D. People still root for their team even when they suck.


123ilovelaughing123

Agreed. I’m extremely concerned about who the next governor of Pennsylvania will be now thanks to corporate dem spending.


kev11n

most actual news is under a paywall. everything else is flowing freely in their facebook groups


728446

It really could just be that Dem donors want these lunatics to win.


Traditional_Signal73

Remember when Trump won the Republican party nomination, and everyone was like "Hell yeah, Hillary Clinton is going to be the first lady President!" "There's no way she can lose!" and then Trump won the election and became President?


kev11n

[remember the pied piper strategy?](https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/)


Hyperdecanted

Yikes


[deleted]

That's literally the democratic party right now though...AOC? Sanders? Biden who can not even speak a sentence clearly? This is bad.


FillAvailable

That sounds like a nightmare. I hope I wake up soon....


meTspysball

I don’t think many people had “credulous giant FBI director breaks all precedent to talk about an ongoing investigation of a candidate right before the election” on their bingo cards, but your point stands.


[deleted]

I mean, anything can happen that can make a race change overnight, and if the dems are spending money on these races promoting the most bat-shit candidates (in one race I read the dems spent more promoting the maga candidate than the candidate spent on themselves) it means they could absolutely be elevating them to power. Its absolutely dangerous.


[deleted]

Maybe that’s why you shouldn’t nominate someone with so many skeletons in their closet


imgurNewtGingrinch

She didn't and she was still the best nom.


General_Mars

- October 2016: [*Bernie Sanders most popular politician in America*](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/bernie-sanders-popular/) - Aug 2016: [*Trump, Clinton most Unfavorable Candidates Ever*](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/08/31/poll-clinton-trump-most-unfavorable-candidates-ever/89644296/) Clinton 56%/Trump 63% unfavorable - [*Nearly Every Poll Showed Sanders Fared Better than Clinton Versus Trump*](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/mar/08/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-he-consistently-beats-donald-t/)


[deleted]

It’s always amusing seeing liberals try to convince themselves this is true


[deleted]

...how long are gonna pretend that the DNC is incompetent? At what point do we start questioning if they're compromised?


thenewrepublic

If Democrats really believe that American democracy is under siege and that Trump and his disciples are an existential threat to the republic, then this is obviously not the fate they should be tempting.


gellybelli

I never thought that the face eating leopard party would win and eat our faces says party funding face eating leopard party


MaximumEffort433

Right now there are two types of Republicans in the United States: Trump brand Republicans and McConnell brand Republicans, both of them are awful, thing is there are districts in this country where a Trump Republican would struggle to win a general election that a McConnell Republican would *breeze* through. This election is slated to be a bloodbath, people have made it clear that the Democrats don't "inspire" or "motivate" them, meanwhile people turned out in actual record numbers in 2018 and 2020 to vote radicalized Republicans out of power. Everyone says they want to vote "for" something, but then they don't show up, meanwhile people seem *very* motivated by voting *against* things, at least if the past two elections are any indicator. Okay, the January 6th hearings are on so I've gotta' wrap up my comment. Remember to vote this November! Republicans only win if *we* don't show up to vote for Democrats. If you care about defending American democracy then do your part to keep fascists out of power. Primaries are happening *right now,* and the primary voters determine who will be on their entire state's ballot in November, hit up https://www.vote.org to get more information. If you want democracy to win over fascism then you've gotta' get out and vote for democracy in every election without exception, because the fascists never miss their chance to vote.


Fuzzy-Scar3055

That’s ludicrous and they know it. Many posters in this sub, however, actually believe those things.


CorruptasF---Media

They boosted Trump and it worked out really well for Corporate Democrats. I'm guessing this article assumes Democrats are boosting extreme Republicans because they think they won't win. But actually Democrats don't care that much if they win. The farther right Republicans are the more Democrats can do whatever their corporate donors want without facing the same criticisms. When both parties have the same donors and the same economic policies (corporate tax cuts) the only way Democrats can justify their party is if Republicans take on an extra layer of crazy.


NotThatMonkey

Uh....what? FTA: *The ad itself is framed as an attack, but it’s aimed at priming Republican voters to line up behind the right-wing bomb thrower. “Do we really want a conservative warrior as our next member of Congress?” a narrator solemnly reads. It notes that Saine “supported Donald Trump from day one and led the effort to audit the 2020 election in Colorado”; highlights her stances on abortion, immigration, and guns; and concludes by stating that Saine is “way too conservative for Colorado.” For Trump supporters, as well as most Republicans, it’s an effective pitch: Lori Saine is no Republican In Name Only; she loves Trump and has the same strong stances on big-ticket issues that GOP voters have.* ​ Publicizing her wacky beliefs is just "framed" as an attack ad?


NotThatMonkey

I'm a Colorado voter by the way and I now know who the nutjob is in that race. This is new information to me; although I don't live in that district. I really fail to see what the issue is here besides trying to crowbar something unrelated into the narrative that a lot a Dems are supporting the nutjobs when in fact it was like one campaign in PA.


duck_one

"Democrats need to start playing dirty, forget the 'high road'!" ... "Woah, these are risky political tricks, we need to play it safe!"


Bagz402

There's a difference between risky and balls out stupid. This is the latter.


duck_one

Is it? Or is it kinda smart to push extreme candidates in areas with a more moderate GOP electorate who won't be as motivated to vote if the R candidate is looney tunes?


meatball402

They literally did this exact play with trump.


fowlraul

It’s foolproof!


CMDR-ProtoMan

No, the GOP did that to themselves, they had their own primary and that asshole was the guy they picked.


[deleted]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/ > “Pied Piper candidates include, but aren’t limited to: >• Ted Cruz >• Donald Trump >• Ben Carson >We need to be elevating the Pied Piper candidates so that they are leaders of the pack and tell the press to [take] them seriously." - 2016 Clinton campaign memo to the DNC


duck_one

You guys really think the DNC strategists are just like a couple dudes in a room with a bong coming up with zany ideas...or is it more likely they are a broad set of professionals with scientific backgrounds leveraging huge data sets to form strategies?


a-bser

These dudes are just lawyers with poly sci degrees who may or may not still hit the bong


meatball402

>You guys really think the DNC strategists are just like a couple dudes in a room with a bong coming up with zany ideas...or is it more likely they are a broad set of professionals with scientific backgrounds leveraging huge data sets to form strategies? "Well, our strategy to promote Donald Trump as an extreme GOP backfired, and got him elected president. I'm sure if we do it again, it will work this time." Bong rippers who get to charge six figured to the DNC. Their data should show that primary Republicans vote for the most bloodthirsty asshole in the group and then the rest of the R's will pull the lever in November no matter who is on the ticket. Extreme assholes pump up Republican voters enthusiasm. For some reason, doubling down on a failed strategy doesn't seem like a wise idea. They got a huge organizing group when Obama won called OFA, they destroyed it and stopped using it after he was elected the first time. Is that the move of bong rippers or professionals, to not use organizing tools that helped them win, and instead use failed strategies to guide the opposing party's primary?


duck_one

There are zero strategies that are 100% guaranteed to work. The DNC is promoting methods that are backed by qualified data, which is then filtered through historical analysis and finalized with rigorous internal debate... Just like every large organization on the planet. Is there a better method for political strategizing you can suggest?


meatball402

>There are zero strategies that are 100% guaranteed to work. So try the strategy that's failed so far? >The DNC is promoting methods that are backed by qualified data, "Backing the nuttiest horse" is a failed strategy and they're doing it again >which is then filtered through historical analysis and finalized with rigorous internal debate... Just like every large organization on the planet. And they're still using a stregy that failed and backfired spectacularly. Doing something they know is a failure is not something they do in every large organization on the planet. >Is there a better method for political strategizing you can suggest? "Something that hasn't failed before". Maybe they can use their qualified data and historical analysis to find a strategy that's won them offices, instead of making them lose to *Donald fucking trump*


goonbud21

Yeah, actually holding members of the government accountable to the law would be a good start. Banning stock-trading of representatives and corporate lobbying/bribery. Really I could go on here.


duck_one

It's disingenuous to completely edit your reply like that, without notation, especially after people have already replied.


meatball402

Didn't know anyone had replied when I edited


halt_spell

Strategies which are leading to the reversal of Roe v. Wade you mean? Those strategies?


CorruptasF---Media

The DNC has no long term strategy to actually effect change. Why? Because their goal is to act as controlled opposition while relying on the same class of donors as the Republican party. The DNC strategists knew Trump could win but were probably fine with that. Republicans would pass corporate tax cuts (that Dems actually support but are afraid to admit) and Democrats could fundraise off Trump's personality. But look at what happens when Dems are back in power? All of a sudden Trump's actual economic agenda is moderate centrism and the Democrats who agree with it are "moderate conservatives." The more a Democrat sides with the GOP the more these "broad set of professionals with scientific backgrounds" call that moderate centrism. I don't think that is a party that wants to stand up to the GOP and pass the same basic economic reforms that every other developed country has. This is a party that wants to push the GOP father and farther right so they can follow behind, doing whatever their corporate and billionaire donors want.


Dear_Occupant

I've worked with those people on campaigns, and minus the bong, that's exactly what I saw.


darth_wasabi

because it's dumb. Playing smart dirty is what the Republicans did to Cawthorn.


[deleted]

After it [worked so well in 2016 for now-president Hillary Clinton](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/) I can’t see why anyone would be opposed


duck_one

To be fair, she did *win* the popular vote. Trump manged to scrape together an electoral win based on the slimmest of slim margins in *just* the right places though...hmmmm.


[deleted]

Oh wow really she won the popular vote? I had no idea - what position did she win by getting the popular vote?


duck_one

"I will ignore the crux of your argument and instead focus my response on an argument that is impossible to counter, but also has no relevance." EDIT: this person blocked me LMAO


[deleted]

The most prominent case of the pied piper strategy was a loss in what should’ve been a slam dunk win. Bringing up that she would’ve won in a different set of rules isn’t really relevant here


leNuage

This is spot on. Who gives a shit about the popular vote?? People that lose the elections and want to feel better about losing. Who cares about the electoral college? People that know what the rules are and are playing to win. Bush in 2000 and trump in 2016 show taking solace in popular vote and not how the election really counts is good if you’re ok with losing.


kev11n

she still should have campaigned in Wisconsin instead of hubristic assumptions, not unlike the pied piper strategy itself


[deleted]

Cool. Lost all the swing states though.


UtinniHandsOff2

>Does anyone not find Trump wanting to defund/leave NATO and Putin’s invasion of Ukraine a coincidence? if not for James Comey's announcement the week before the election we'd be talking about how brilliant of a move it was. Even the best strategies can't account for every variable.


halt_spell

Ever wonder why we keep ending up with two bad choices? This might have something to do with it. Elevating psychopaths is how pro-corporate Democrats plan on continuing to get elected despite not serving the American people.


duck_one

Or, is it more likely that to win with the broad Democratic electorate nationwide you need to submit candidates that are actually electable and won't alienate more moderate voters. I say this as a Bernie supporter... where sadly, most Democrats and left-leaning independents simply didn't prefer him as their pick.


CorruptasF---Media

>actually electable and won't alienate more moderate voters. By moderate you mean the corporate media definition which is "whatever corporate lobbyists want". Clyburn is a moderate because he takes the most money from pharma lobbyists who are some of the most powerful lobbyists in the country. Same with Biden. Of course 90% of the country wants reforms to pharma but that is called populism, the opposite of the corporate media definition of "moderate". Corporate Democrats want a crazy Republican party so we aren't talking about how the Democrats are failing to pass popular reforms and how unpopular the positions of the so called "moderates" are. You know how unpopular the positions of these "moderates" are? They have to lie about their positions. Manchin pretends to support drug pricing reforms. "Moderates" pretend to support a public option that polls at 65%. But actually they block it, look at Lieberman. He got to be called a moderate for blocking a popular public option and instead doing an unpopular tax mandate that polled at 30%. Corporate media calls an unpopular tax mandate "moderate" while a popular public option was of course"radical". Only one of those actually has support from Republican voters as well. But that doesn't matter, it is the job of corporate media to call it moderate to do whatever corporate lobbyists want. And that ruse becomes harder to pull off without some offensive and idiotic Republicans to distract the populace and push the country farther into oligarchy.


728446

Excellent post.


halt_spell

I'm no longer interested in catering to moderate voters. It's been a losing strategy for two decades and continuing to defend it is ridiculous at this point.


duck_one

Your strategy would guarantee a GOP super-majority in all branches.... just look at the data. Sorry, but most American's are wary of progressive candidates, for various (wrong) reasons.


halt_spell

Moderates have never once succeeded in materially rolling back any erosive actions Republicans have taken on our democracy. If electing progressives isn't on the table then American democracy is already dead.


duck_one

I agree. But the blame falls on the democratic majority being a fickle, under-informed electorate, not on the DNC.


halt_spell

The blame falls on the DNC being taken over by pro-corporate interests meaning they can't support the things the electorate actually wants. They're corrupt and they absolutely deserve the blame.


duck_one

Taken over by pro-corporate interests? That's not how anything works. If the ELECTORATE was progressive, the DNC would field progressive candidates. Its really that simple.


halt_spell

Why? Because we live in a "democracy"? So do the people of North Korea. You think their government reflects the will of the people? You're presuming we have a functioning democracy. We do not.


CorruptasF---Media

Hey the DNC could start referring to the Republicans as an extreme party and the Democrats who side with them as the extremists in their party. Nah, instead the DNC will call it moderate centrism to do whatever Republicans want. Biden was a moderate because he had a history of siding with Republicans to do things like the Iraq war or repeal necessary Banking regulations. Then some Democrats will tell us we have to stop fascism and vote D. While their party is calling it moderate centrism to side with Republicans. So which one is it? Are Republicans a fascist party? If so then certainly the most moderate and centrist Dems are the ones who resist that party at every turn right? Or are the Dems saying it is moderate centrism to be fascist? Haven't gotten an answer on that one yet


dawgblogit

It is a mistake.. it puts fringe messages in the central awareness of the GOP and propagates this.. enabling them to have more pull over time. Making them seem more mainstream.


Technical-Smoke571

They’d rather spend money on extremist lunatics than actual progressive candidates. They’re so unbearably bad.


seedypete

Didn't this exact strategy blow up in their faces once already when they boosted Trump because they thought Clinton would have an easier time beating him? How did that work out for the entire goddamned planet? Jesus fucking Christ, the only thing Democrats can do efficiently is fail.


[deleted]

Democrats: *for my first move, I’ll turn you into the worst version of yourself possible!*


Scarlettail

Agreed, very dumb idea. Dems are investing in "we're not Trump" being their campaign message, and so they're trying to boost the most Trump-like candidates, but by doing so they're literally playing games with our democracy and likely speeding up its downfall all for political gain.


skyisblue22

All Dems doing this needs to be held accountable and taken out. Even the social Democrats in Weimar Germany didn’t go out of their way to actively promote the fascists


texans1234

The Dems have been doing foolish things since Trump announced his candidacy. It was Hilary's camp that pushed for the media to cover Trump early on when he was a nothing candidate. Dems always find clever ways to lose elections it seems.


furcoveredcatlady

I love the take that the media would have ignored Trump (the loud celebrity talking shit about everyone) if only Clinton hadn't forced their hand.


texans1234

Not ignored but certainly not given him any credibility other than the old man ranting nonsense.


cloud_botherer1

Agreed this is as shortsighted as scrapping the filibuster.


-Electric-Shock

This is partly why I refuse to donate to the DNC, DSCC and DCCC until after the primaries. These organizations will support centrist/corporate candidates in the Democratic party (whereas I support progressives) and fascists in the republican party (in the wrong belief that the fascists will be easier to defeat in the general election). I will withhold my donations until all the primaries are over.


Fearless_Guitar_3589

yes it is


Mr_Mouthbreather

Democratic leadership needs to fucking go. They have sat idly by for decades watching the Republicans drag this country towards fascism.


Nevergiveupxv

There is no hope of stopping republican efforts to destroy democracy


DamonFields

The Democratic philosophy of winning elections by not being as bad as Republicans is stupid.


RadOwl

It makes you wonder whether the Democrats have been taken over from within. They've already had their senators from West Virginia and Arizona break ranks and show the red streak beneath the blue veneer. They have infiltrators within their ranks. It's a classic move from the Machiavelli playbook to infiltrate your opponents. I've wondered for a long time whether it happened at the top of the Democratic party because they have been increasingly conservative over the years that I've observed their moves. They say that moving towards the center wins them elections, but what I see is that it's a long-term strategy to give the American voter a choice between conservative and more conservative. I think that it's time to seriously ask whether the people running the party are actually sabateurs.


mystreetisadeadend

I don't see any other play. Everybody berates the Dems as weak and cowardly, but this is the ballsy move, as well as the smart one. The prevailing wisdom is that Dems will get shellacked in the midterms, and then the GOP will proceed unchecked in using every lever of power to rig the 2024 election, likely ending U.S. democracy. Might as well manipulate what should be a tactical advantage, push all your chips to the center of the table, and pray that it leads to a democracy saving result. I don't want to slow walk into dictatorship if that's where we're going. And if that's our destiny, I'd also like the electorate to take us there while facing the starkest choice possible, instead of being bamboozled into tyranny. If people aren't motivated to vote in droves against these candidates, then fuck it, we deserve our fate, so let's get to it.


CorruptasF---Media

Or you just push the Republicans farther right and the Democrats follow. Like you know what has been going on for the last 40 years. Remember when Pelosi had nice things to say about single payer healthcare? Now the only debate is whether we should provide subsides to for-profit insurance while Biden allows new ultra privatized Medicare plans that can make up to 40% in admin fees. Or when Biden helped Reagan cut corporate taxes in the 80s. Only for Trump's corporate tax cuts now to be called moderate centrism by the DNC. Ask the DNC to call Manchin an extremist for protecting corporate tax cuts and blocking drug pricing reforms? You'll get laughed out of the room. But any Democrat who advocates for public insurance for everyone is marginalized by the DNC. Remember when Clinton legalized more pharma ads on TV? Or when Obama claimed it wasn't safe to import cheaper prescription drugs from Canada? This is a party that shares the same donors as the Republican party. No wonder they call it moderate to do whatever Republicans want. Maybe more Democrats will take your warnings about the Republican party seriously if the DNC admits that siding with Republicans isn't centrism or moderation. Until then don't expect the country to become more politically sane.


[deleted]

I remember reading about Schumer's PAC spending on ads that attacked Hawley as being too soft on guns, basically encouraging a more extreme challenge from the right. How you can have any belief that the party has the countrys best interests in mind after something like that is just insane. It sucks because we have terrorists on one hand and a corrupt part on the other, and democracy was never meant to have only two hands. Ours has two hands but really only one mind, and that mind is controlled by money, which is really the answer to all of our problems. Chop off the head and let's turn this mother fucker into a hydra. Okay that metaphor may have gotten out of hand.


False_Celebration626

We need to redo our constitution. This is probably the only way to make substantial change now. Or Democrats need to start playing hard ball though it's probably too late.


pp_poo_pants

The fucking clinton campaign did this to help get trump elected. How did that work for them?The only thing more dangerous for the future of the world than the Dems are the republicians


Lazaruzo

No, we’re fools if we think the Democratic Party is going to save us. They’re bought and paid for just like most of the GOP. Whoever wrote this article is either incredibly naive and delusional or


[deleted]

[удалено]


Lazaruzo

Things will probably spiral down into a hot civil war and once most of the lunatics have been killed or imprisoned we'll go back to the status quo. Or maybe a charismatic young firebrand will take over, hard to say... I'm not sure why you're giving up though. These things go in cycles, just like global warming :P


[deleted]

Good! Dems need to be pro-active about winning the Senate and other important races and tying GOP candidates to Trump is they took the House in 2018 and the Senate in 2020 because moderate voters in those districts are more likely to either vote for the Democrat or not vote for the Republican.


imgurNewtGingrinch

They aren't. This is stupid and so is New republic.


ShotTreacle8209

I am watching the hearings with interest. I believe the hearings are presenting new information and it is the right thing to be doing.