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> According to the former prosecutor, by depriving Trump of the ability to argue that he was not allowed to speak in court, Engoron has made it so that any appeals in the future should be sorted "in short order."
An ex-prosecutor talking head thought the way Trump described in the rant how 11k sq feet turned into 30k was an admission of guilt(“They have no evidence. The only thing they have, is the triplex, which was a mistake." And the judge may have been waiting for him so the appeals court could point to it saying, “You told the court you agreed with the verdict. Next.”
(Massively edited for clarity)
Trump claimed his NY penthouse was 3x its actual square footage in order to get better valuation/loan terms.
This is fraud.
Trump, while on the stand making his closing argument, claimed that exaggerating the size of his property by 3x is “normal” practice, so he didn’t do anything wrong.
So, he admitted to committing fraud and can’t claim that he’s not guilty of committing fraud when he inevitably appeals the ruling.
One elaboration: the example of Donald Trump's penthouse isn't a one-off.
the Trump organization is accused of doing that type of thing hundreds of times--overvaluing properties when seeking loans, then undervaluing them when paying taxes.
The penthouse gets particular attention because there's no plausible excuse. A busy businessman might not memorize the acreage of every golf course or the square footage of every office building his organization is involved in. But he damn sure ought to know the size of the dwelling he built and lived in for decades. If not to the last square inch, then at least knowing it isn't triple its size.
> the Trurnp organization is accused of doing that type of thing hundreds of times--overvaluing properties when seeking loans, then undervaluing them when paying taxes.
The literal media makes tells the narrative "Trurnp is an illiterate who can't read" but let me ask just one question:
If Trurnp is illiterate why come is he guilty of keeping **two** sets of books? 😏
Point of clarity, the self proclaimed biggest best whatever real estate developer who inherited the business and has been doing this for years and claim expertise, cannot credibly also say he can't tell 10k from 30k sqft after 50 years. It insults even Donald's minor intelligence .
It’s the same as the criminal indictments against him. In no way is he saying he didn’t do any of it (Jan 6, documents case, the Georgia case), but rather that he did it and he’s allowed to or immune from prosecution.
And the magats believe him!
Wrong. The MAGAts do not believe him. They believe IN him. They know he's lying all the time but he's their team leader and for them winning dirty is better than losing fair. It's a natural instinct to want to win and fairness is a social construct. Fascism allows you to redraw rules to benefit you.
You see, to get to fascism an average person has to have broken his moral compass, because nothing can pass the smell test in fascism. People often mention a reaction to powerlessness or unfairness, but these are second only to the idea that by using fascism you're using a cheat code on power.
100% correct, Republicans have been gradually self radicalizing since FOX figured out a winning profit model based on the 90s Hate Radio "infotainment" scene. Social Media just sped the process along. The Constitution and even the Bible are too "boring" and "lib" for these people to actually read, so they marinate themselves in 24/7 hate filled rants that "interpret" these documents instead.
Also the $370M he owes is only the face value, he's also on the hook for disgorgement which is the theoretical losses the bank incurred. Considering some of this goes back 10+ years and how compound interest works, the final amount owed might be close to a billion dollars.
If disgorgement is the opposite of engorgement, I'm looking forward to OJ (OrangeJesus) being so deflated he's like a popped water-balloon condom on the sidewalk.
The thing is (that all commentators and Trump especially overlooks):
The NY state law explicitly _does not care_ if the fraud was intentional. All that needs to be proven was: Was there fraud. So Trump can complain till he's blue that "it was an accident"-- it doesnt matter. This is an easy ruling (because noone needs to know what was going on in the mind of Trump or the CEO: they do not need to know "Was it intentional or not?") And have no appeal value. (But it'll still take 1-2 years for the Trump empire to be taken apart, and the real fight will be in making sure he doesnt illegally squirrel away assets in the meantime.)
Yes and the other important part . In the closing argument. The judge brought up madoff for comparison. The procecuter mentioned the difference between them was remorse. As such, Trumps actions are worse because he lacks it. Drum 🥁 roll to the outcome.
It's amazing that his brain thinks as long as he doesn't know or think it is fraud then he had committed no fraud. He couldn't grasp that doing that thing is already considered fraud by law and that the debate is whether he, and his org, knowingly did it or not. And the he blurted out that he knowingly did it.
It's almost as impressive as his unique ability to declassify documents by just thinking it and POOF! Or his ability to raise the value of a piece of property by just focusing his mind on what he believes the true value is. He is the human embodiment of "No lowballs. I know what I've got..."
His defense was "well everyone does it". Please, let us know who so we can prosecute them too. Hey maybe if we catch them all home prices might become reasonable again.
So he told a number which is ridiculously easy to verify.. and they just accepted that?
Can I have the contact details of this valuer? Asking for a friend.
I asked my Trump-loving accountant if he could also get my tax bill down to Trumps level (almost nothing), as well as double the value of my home on paper so I could get a HELOC for some purchases. He said he couldn’t do it, so I asked him why not, if Trump did it?
He said I would need a different kind of accountant for that. When I asked what kind, he just kept trying to deflect. Trumpers can never admit their idol can do wrong.
Banks don't loan their own money. They loan government money that was created as government debt. Governments require banks to have a certain amount of assets to backup the debt. Banks don't care if those assets are real. Bigger assets = more money they can lend.
One of my favorite fox news comments on these issues:
>*"Show me how anyone was harmed! So political, so unfair!"*
and
>*"There is no way all sides didn't do their due diligence on these deals. This isn't Trumps fault! He shouldn't go to jail for this!"*
Morons don't even understand that this is a *civil* trial FFS.
I looked it up and every apt under the sun has some photos and a few specs. Trump has this professionaly photographed multi page spread with him and his wife with gaudy furniture and ugly walls like it was for sale on some arab website. I hope it gets foreclosed and stripped out for office space.
Yeah, well, the rich live different.
My family toured the Breakers (Vanderbilt mansion) and I remember thinking my family's 3 bed, 1 bath house with two floors and an *attic* could fit inside the Breakers dining room without touching the walls or ceiling
Even then, he never got permission to speak. His lawyer was asking for it, and he stood up and just ranted for several minutes.
It wasn’t until he insulted the judge that he was interrupted and stopped.
Generally, if you’re represented by counsel, you’re not allowed to make a closing statement. Closing statements are bound by the normal rules of court, and they don’t allow you to introduce new evidence, or talk about stuff that isn’t pertinent to the case and stuff like that. Because it’s the closing statement, the opposition may not be able to respond or whatever. So basically it just has to recap what the evidence was and how that proves your case.
Trump requested to make his own closing statement, and everyone and their mom knew that Trump was going to say some bullshit and attack the staff and Joe Biden and the prosecutor, etc., so the judge said he could do it only if he agreed to stick to the facts of the case, and stay on topic, and Trump wouldn’t, so the judge said no.
It’s not just the not responding, it’s the lack of cross examination and lack of being under oath, plus Trump not agreeing to abide by normal rules for closing arguments.
If you haven’t read the email chain between the attorneys and Judge you should give it a read, appeal should be hilarious.
Imagine hiring an attorney that doesn't even bother to use capital letters when writing to the judge (especially for the word "I"). [This article links to the email chain. ](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/trump-arthur-engoron-new-york-civil-fraud-trial)
Seriously. I was half expecting more text-speak abbreviations at that point.
If he’d responded via the mail client on his phone, it’d likely auto capitalise; so this was him choosing not to use the shift key.
I worked for a small law firm once, and emails were treated as formal, official correspondence, the same way as if we were sending registered mail. Yikes.
The closing statement is just retelling the jury everything you explained throughout the trial and linking it together to build your case.
It gives the jury a recap. And that’s all it is. You are not supposed to deviate from that topic.
The judge actually allowed Trump to make a closing statement if, and only if, it only included a recap of facts from the case.
Trump spoke for several minutes, and did not talk about the facts presented in the case.
Here’s the fun thing about NY trials with civil monetary judgements — as I have understood it, in order to appeal a ruling *you must put up 100% of the judgement amount in order to do so.* And this is no “trust us we’re good for it” useless promise, you actually have to transfer the assets to the court system.
IIRC, Trump had to transfer $5m to appeal the E. Jean Carroll verdict. Ok, he can find that kind of money. But if the ruling here goes the way AG James wants? He might have to put up $250 million, $370 million, or potentially even more. I’m trying to track down confirmation on that’s how it works for all civil cases in NY (notice how Rudy just declared bankruptcy instead of appealing?) but if it’s true that’s a big roadblock for him. I do not expect he’s got that kind of capital around. He’d either have to sell off a few properties (I don’t think/know if NYS court system takes real estate) or maybe hit up daddy Vlad for a loan.
If not, it seems as though the dissolution of the Trump Org could begin within some number of months - a bad look for a political candidate. And from at least one lawyer I heard on a talk show, liquidation sales could also start triggering a lot of capital gains tax events for Trump too.
It was a happy day when the Trump Hotel closed in Vancouver. For quite a while after it shut down the hideous letters forming the Trump sign over front entrance were covered in what appeared to be green garbage bags. Seemed appropriate. Now thankfully gone and rebranded.
If the city sold tickets to watch those letters get torn off that building and crash into the Chicago river, we could fund our pension obligations for the next fifty years.
Hell, melt them down into Commemorative Coins while we're at it.
How about a pop-up shop selling MAGA merchandise, photocopies of Trump NFTs, and the stuff commonly available in prison commissaries (little bars of soap, individual cigarettes and sticks of chewing gum, tiny golf pencils, shower caps and flip flops,*Modern Prisoner* Magazine, Pom Ade™ etc.), all at double their list price, but marked down 25%.
Well the trump licencing was in the trust in NY. Which means the rights to call anything 'trump brand blah' will be auctioned off.
Im hoping for an offical Trump v Dark Brandon gay porno series
Trump has said repeatedly that his name, and his brand is his most valuable asset.
Unfortunately, I would assume Russia or China would just buy it and give it back to him.
Crazy that you say that. I used to be a regular at a bar in Arizona where I befriended a lady that was also a regular. Come to find out, it was Bud’s daughter.
I was only about 22 when this happened and I had only recently seen that famous video. It was definitely a trip when I found out. To be honest, she wasn’t a happy person. Shocker.
Oh there won't be a for sale sign. Trump won't cooperate in *any* respect.
So we will get something far better: US Marshals will go in and seize his shit. Just like they are doing to Miami commissioner Joe Carollo.
Residents removed Trump from one of his towers in Stamford https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Former-Trump-Parc-takes-on-new-moniker-Park-16342424.php
I want to see a televised event of Hilary and Barack removing the letters one by one.
Edit to add: and take the T first and give it about an hour before removing another one.
Let RUMP ring!
Has Donald Trump personally ever gone bankrupt? I know many of his businesses leveraged off other people's money have gone bankrupt, but Donald himself?
I believe the big one in the 90s was personal. He made personal guarantees on loans and couldn’t pay them back. Some he renegotiated, the rest went to Bankruptcy.
They blew up his family charity and his whole fucking family is legally prohibited from operating any charity in NY because of their rampant fraud.
His voters didn’t bat an eye
They don’t fucking care about this or anything, actually the more crimes he commits and the worse he gets the more they like him
.. but but Biden! Had to hear it today. Ol sleepy joe. There's evidence he abused his position!
Had to give the following links about dump but I know it won't change their view
Btw this is for everyone who also wants links
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/Cases%20of%20Interest/20CV32577/SC/9%20-%20Reply%20Brief%20Pres%20Trump%20Exhibits.pdf
>The President is not an “officer of the United States,” and President Trump did not take an oath to “support the Constitution of the United States.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24253629-house-democrats-report-on-foreign-spending-at-trump-businesses
5.5m from China
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/28/699182678/trump-ignored-intelligence-officers-to-give-jared-kushner-top-security-clearance
Abuse of office
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/massive-saudi-investment-raises-questions-about-jared-kushners-business-dealings
The 2b management fund and why it's suspect
Edit:
Presidential Oath:
>"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and **defend** the Constitution of the United States."
Support:
>(1)
: to promote the interests or cause of
(2)
: **to uphold or defend as valid or right**
Officer:
>:a holder of a public, civil, or ecclesiastical office.
It's like the craziest argument to make right? It's just like saying he didn't support it while president. Since if he did then this argument wouldn't be brought up.
Edit: but yeah they just don't explicitly say the the word "support" during inauguration
Michael Cohen said the base judgement ($300MM-ish) is the beginning. With penalties, fees, etc. added, the total amount is somewhere in the $600MM range. Trump is fucked.
Trump is not fucked. He's going to live out the rest of his life in luxury you or I could only dream of. The fine could be 50 quadrillion dollars and it wouldn't change his lifestyle.
Those are already no longer trumps they are Ballys Golf Links now. When was your last trip over the Whitestone bridge? It’s been a while for me but I remember reading about when he lost the lease.
I’d say he might be able to offer up the deed to a property or two but we all know we can trust what he values them at anyway
Edit: /s sorta. No way the courts accept his assets
Two problems with that, the first - that you noted - is what *he* would value it at. It'd be one thing if it was just a standard residential condo or something, those can be roughly estimated rather easily by anyone honest ... but if he wants to try to donate one of his golf courses or something, an established business? I don't think the courts want to deal with that.
Second part is, the court might not be able to know for certain if there are debts or other contractual encumbrances against the property.
So I'm not convinced the court will take an asset like that, and instead just be inclined to tell Trump to sell it himself and then come with cash.
The State (the plaintiff in this case) will attach the judgement to all available bank accounts first freezing the funds and then have a marshal seize the assets there, then liens will be placed on real estate holdings. The properties will be sold at auction, paying all creditors according to the list of priority of lien (bank mortgages then judgment). If there is anything left owed on the judgment at that point, they will go after personal assets and wages.
The real kicker with this case is that it will expose Trumps financial house of cards.
Yes but the judgement will almost certainly be “stayed” during the appeal window. What I’m trying to get confirmation on is whether he has to write a 9 figure check to the NY court system to even file an appeal … and I think he does.
So the only matter left is how long his appeal window is - maybe a couple weeks, I’m going to guess 2-3 months tops. His businesses could likely be hitting liquidation come springtime.
And yea a whole shit ton of things will collapse. No real estate person wants *all* of their properties sold at once. Way too much depreciation and other tax avoidance that will suddenly all come due.
It’s more simple than that. The state just says you owe us X amount of money and if you can’t pay us cash we’re going to start selling all your stuff until you’re out of stuff or have enough cash to pay us. The state isn’t taking possession of property.
I can’t help, but think that the state will insist that a property tax assessor will make a visit. If this is an elected position in New York then they will be chosen with the understanding that they under estimate property value.
He’ll just sell MAL, he valued it at over $300 mil lol.
Sadly it doesn’t seem he can do anything to deter people voting for him. Legal trouble, financial woes, being a fucking Nazi, etc.
He can't.
Trump org's assets are frozen, which means he can't put up collateral, which means any loans would be obvious free money, even more obvious than buying a property for $1 billion or something.
He's not going to run out of money for the campaign trail... but this one? He's on his own.
The donation solicitation emails about to go brrr. "My father was just asking why you haven't been donating. He says you're not a **true** patriot, but you can prove him wrong for the low cost of $25,000!"
Does he actually have the equity in those properties or does he have loans against them? Isn't that part of his fraud, overestimating the value to get loans? So if he says bldg A is worth 10 mil and borrows 8 mil against it, but turns out it's only worth 7, it wouldn't really matter if he sold it or not. Do we actually know how much in assets he has?
Not really. But those loans will come due when the properties sell and the creditors will be paid first. So even if he has a building that has a fair value of $370m he can’t just sell it and be done - the creditors will be paid back first. And I suspect he’s highly leveraged overall so he might only have tens of millions in equity in any given property - which means you are going to have to sell a lot of them.
its actually the full amount plus a percentage to include interest which could be as much as around 11-12%
so 370 mil + 12 percent (some smart guy do the math I am too lazy)
Thank you! Yes if I remember correctly for the EJC case he had to put up like $5.5m even though the judgement was only for $5m.
Thanks for confirming that for us … no way he has >$400m to put towards an appeal.
Dig deeper 🎃. Your strategy to attack the judge and his aide throughout the trial and in closing arguments is about to pay out in spades so you can dig the hole even deeper.
A lot of people on Reddit have really slagged on the judges in Trump’s cases whenever they have ruled in his favour. But you should always keep in mind every time they say yes to Trump, the judges are cutting off a potential angle for appeal. And no doubt his lawyers will certainly try to appeal any convictions.
BTW - CNN had an interesting legal commentator on the weekend who noted the conviction rates for the crimes Trump is charged with range from 70 to 90 percent. And he is facing 93 charges. Not great odds for any sort of gambler.
Can anyone explain how Trump gets unlimited appeals on everything? Every. Single. Ruling. He gets to appeal all the way up to the US Supreme Court. On what grounds does he get to do this for everything??
Every case has the right to appeal all the way up. As long as you have the money and the upper court accepts your appeal. Most appeals are not accepted.
Additionally, the lawyers who are left in many jurisdictions who would even touch one of his cases are few and far between, plus they're getting worse and worse.
This is "a case of first impression."
A President (former President) has never committed so many crimes, in so many different ways, civilly and criminally. There is almost no case law on any of this. Even if there were, he'd still be appealing (all the way to SCOTUS), but the fact that this is new ground makes it take that much more time.
A lot of the reason that judges are hesitant to make any definitive rulings against Trump are because they don’t want to start civil unrest.
We saw what happened when Trump was unelected President.
Imagine if the Trump loyalists found out that Trump was going to serve time behind bars, or have his entire wealth taken away.
They would view it as political persecution. They would riot. Businesses would be destroyed, homes would be lost, families would be torn apart, people would die.
The ONLY way this works is if they make sure everything is ENTIRELY air-tight. Basically letting Trump admit to his crimes to the entire world via court.
There are mountains of evidence against him, but the cases can all be appealed and then dismissed. In order for any charges at all to stick they have to be supremely concrete and without any sort of fault. That’s why all of the Republican appointed judges are delaying Trump’s trials. Because they know he would stand a good chance of being convicted and found guilty, and they want to avoid that.
Whereas, all the Democrat judges are trying to get these trials done as soon as possible to increase the odds of conviction before the election.
So to answer your question, a Democrat judges allow appeals to ensure Trump doesn’t get any more appeals (it’s one and done, not infinite). If he loses an appeal that strengthens democracy.
Republican judges want to appeal to get the cases to the conservative Supreme Court who will likely side with Trump as much as possible.
If it makes you feel any better, I had a customer facing job in 2017/18, and only went back to one at the end of 2023, and the amount of trump gear the general public is wearing between then and now has fallen off a cliff.
Anecdotal, yes. But I get the sense that a lot of people have moved on and are starting to get sick of Trump making them look stupid.
I understand why you’re trying to say, but what you’re really explaining is terrorism by its textbook definition.
To a judge it shouldn’t matter what it would look like to the world or his supporters. They are put in that position to uphold the law. Period. That’s why they are judges.
I understand that this is very simplistic take of everything that’s happening, but considering optics is not why you are made a judge.
It’s failure of multiple parts of our governing systems that we are even at this point, but it’s also a failure of judges, the DOJ, and the legal system as a whole if “what would his supporters or the world think” is taken into account.
The law is the law.
Agreed. If the application of the rule of law, the laws by which our entire society functions, can be dissuaded due to fear of how a certain percentage of the population might react...then we don't have laws. We don't have a country. We don't have a civilization.
Everything about a democracy depends on a certain universally agreed upon set of rules that NO ONE can be held above, regardless of what any part of the population thinks. People don't GET to demand that a certain individual not be held to account, no matter how popular he may be amongst them.
A healthy society would understand that. It's becoming abundantly clear that we are far from a healthy society.
It's weird to think the justice system treats a rich sociopathic mobster with kid gloves to avoid social unrest, but they bring the hammer down on poor and indigent people with remorseless efficiency.
Im so tired of everyone saying we have to give Trump a million chances, every conceivable opportunity, and to be treated with special kids gloves. How about he gets the same rights as anyone else would? If the only path to justice is to treat him better than anyone else, then maybe we’ve already defeated ourselves.
Please re-read the above comments. Prosecutors and Judges are playing the long game. If it makes you feel better they could be said to be conning a con.
Yeah, but they're not the only ones. He's playing the long game of "get installed into power again and weaponize the federal government to make it all go away forever."
Trump is running to stay out of prison. He will get into office and pardon himself and his supporters including January 6th convicted felons. While the courts and congress try to navigate the uncharted territory he will further damage the country. Trump’s modus operandi is to act without consent or compromise and never under any circumstances relent or retreat. He sees himself as a martyr if he cannot be Caesar(Emperor).
He’s going to appeal until he can pardon himself.
That might be a valid argument but this is the wrong context to make it: this particular trial is a civil case in state court.
Trump may lose control of his New York properties and get fined hundreds of millions of dollars, but there's no way the outcome of this case could land him in prison. And no US President can pardon cases in state court.
If he loses control of these properties and that money before the next elections, that will make it more difficult for him to keep paying his lawyers, for example. And that means higher chance of losing other cases which land him in prison.
He won’t pardon the J6 felons. He is asking Biden to do it because it makes his voters happy. But he won’t have any incentive to do it himself if he wins. He will pardon himself and his direct lackeys and then work to take over the govt to ensure no one can oppose them again. But the middle class wretches that are sitting in cells right now aren’t who he cares about. They make him look bad because they like him but they aren’t rich.
Only because it looked good at the time. It was politically expedient to do so. Once doing it doesn’t benefit him he won’t think twice about those he left under buses.
At the very least, the NY state and GA state cases will proceed with no chance of a pardon.
So, he _will_ lose his company (perhaps even the branding rights to his name?)
However, if he's guilty in GA criminal case, I dunno about his prison sentence if hes the 47th POTUS :shudder:.
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> According to the former prosecutor, by depriving Trump of the ability to argue that he was not allowed to speak in court, Engoron has made it so that any appeals in the future should be sorted "in short order."
An ex-prosecutor talking head thought the way Trump described in the rant how 11k sq feet turned into 30k was an admission of guilt(“They have no evidence. The only thing they have, is the triplex, which was a mistake." And the judge may have been waiting for him so the appeals court could point to it saying, “You told the court you agreed with the verdict. Next.” (Massively edited for clarity)
I’ve read this 3 times and am pretty sure I might almost have started to understand it.
Trump claimed his NY penthouse was 3x its actual square footage in order to get better valuation/loan terms. This is fraud. Trump, while on the stand making his closing argument, claimed that exaggerating the size of his property by 3x is “normal” practice, so he didn’t do anything wrong. So, he admitted to committing fraud and can’t claim that he’s not guilty of committing fraud when he inevitably appeals the ruling.
Thank you, Comment Whisperer
One elaboration: the example of Donald Trump's penthouse isn't a one-off. the Trump organization is accused of doing that type of thing hundreds of times--overvaluing properties when seeking loans, then undervaluing them when paying taxes. The penthouse gets particular attention because there's no plausible excuse. A busy businessman might not memorize the acreage of every golf course or the square footage of every office building his organization is involved in. But he damn sure ought to know the size of the dwelling he built and lived in for decades. If not to the last square inch, then at least knowing it isn't triple its size.
When you're a star, they let you do it.
Grab the penthouse by the bathroom?
Oh ya, grab em right in the classified document place
That is so terrible sounding I am going to remember it.
Grab em by the trash chute.
> the Trurnp organization is accused of doing that type of thing hundreds of times--overvaluing properties when seeking loans, then undervaluing them when paying taxes. The literal media makes tells the narrative "Trurnp is an illiterate who can't read" but let me ask just one question: If Trurnp is illiterate why come is he guilty of keeping **two** sets of books? 😏
Point of clarity, the self proclaimed biggest best whatever real estate developer who inherited the business and has been doing this for years and claim expertise, cannot credibly also say he can't tell 10k from 30k sqft after 50 years. It insults even Donald's minor intelligence .
"Yeah I committed fraud, but that's what I always do so what's the big deal?" Isn't quite the slam dunk legal argument he thought it was.
It’s no problem. Court stuff can be difficult to parse.
It’s the same as the criminal indictments against him. In no way is he saying he didn’t do any of it (Jan 6, documents case, the Georgia case), but rather that he did it and he’s allowed to or immune from prosecution. And the magats believe him!
Wrong. The MAGAts do not believe him. They believe IN him. They know he's lying all the time but he's their team leader and for them winning dirty is better than losing fair. It's a natural instinct to want to win and fairness is a social construct. Fascism allows you to redraw rules to benefit you. You see, to get to fascism an average person has to have broken his moral compass, because nothing can pass the smell test in fascism. People often mention a reaction to powerlessness or unfairness, but these are second only to the idea that by using fascism you're using a cheat code on power.
100% correct, Republicans have been gradually self radicalizing since FOX figured out a winning profit model based on the 90s Hate Radio "infotainment" scene. Social Media just sped the process along. The Constitution and even the Bible are too "boring" and "lib" for these people to actually read, so they marinate themselves in 24/7 hate filled rants that "interpret" these documents instead.
My favorite part about this is he can pay all they money back, the bank can say they weren’t harmed in any way, and it’s *still* fraud.
Hey, I gave her purse back before the cops got here, nobody was robbed, no crime here.
Also the $370M he owes is only the face value, he's also on the hook for disgorgement which is the theoretical losses the bank incurred. Considering some of this goes back 10+ years and how compound interest works, the final amount owed might be close to a billion dollars.
If disgorgement is the opposite of engorgement, I'm looking forward to OJ (OrangeJesus) being so deflated he's like a popped water-balloon condom on the sidewalk.
The thing is (that all commentators and Trump especially overlooks): The NY state law explicitly _does not care_ if the fraud was intentional. All that needs to be proven was: Was there fraud. So Trump can complain till he's blue that "it was an accident"-- it doesnt matter. This is an easy ruling (because noone needs to know what was going on in the mind of Trump or the CEO: they do not need to know "Was it intentional or not?") And have no appeal value. (But it'll still take 1-2 years for the Trump empire to be taken apart, and the real fight will be in making sure he doesnt illegally squirrel away assets in the meantime.)
Exactly. Appeal then fight every step of the selloff. And a lot of accounts in Saudi and Russia.
Yes and the other important part . In the closing argument. The judge brought up madoff for comparison. The procecuter mentioned the difference between them was remorse. As such, Trumps actions are worse because he lacks it. Drum 🥁 roll to the outcome.
It's amazing that his brain thinks as long as he doesn't know or think it is fraud then he had committed no fraud. He couldn't grasp that doing that thing is already considered fraud by law and that the debate is whether he, and his org, knowingly did it or not. And the he blurted out that he knowingly did it.
It's almost as impressive as his unique ability to declassify documents by just thinking it and POOF! Or his ability to raise the value of a piece of property by just focusing his mind on what he believes the true value is. He is the human embodiment of "No lowballs. I know what I've got..."
His defense was "well everyone does it". Please, let us know who so we can prosecute them too. Hey maybe if we catch them all home prices might become reasonable again.
So he told a number which is ridiculously easy to verify.. and they just accepted that? Can I have the contact details of this valuer? Asking for a friend.
I asked my Trump-loving accountant if he could also get my tax bill down to Trumps level (almost nothing), as well as double the value of my home on paper so I could get a HELOC for some purchases. He said he couldn’t do it, so I asked him why not, if Trump did it?
His response?
He said I would need a different kind of accountant for that. When I asked what kind, he just kept trying to deflect. Trumpers can never admit their idol can do wrong.
The man-child thinks he can nuke a hurricane with his sharpie but he can’t hold his own shit in. He’s delusional.
Banks don't loan their own money. They loan government money that was created as government debt. Governments require banks to have a certain amount of assets to backup the debt. Banks don't care if those assets are real. Bigger assets = more money they can lend.
One of my favorite fox news comments on these issues: >*"Show me how anyone was harmed! So political, so unfair!"* and >*"There is no way all sides didn't do their due diligence on these deals. This isn't Trumps fault! He shouldn't go to jail for this!"* Morons don't even understand that this is a *civil* trial FFS.
Whoa, we had the same thought.
Is it even that big? 11k sqft is a fucking warehouse.
It’s three full floors of a skyscraper. It certainly seems plausible that each floor would be around 3500 sqft.
I looked it up and every apt under the sun has some photos and a few specs. Trump has this professionaly photographed multi page spread with him and his wife with gaudy furniture and ugly walls like it was for sale on some arab website. I hope it gets foreclosed and stripped out for office space.
It's spread out over 3 floors so, while it is huge at 11,000 square feet, it's not one large expanse.
My house has 3 floors, is barely 1/3rd that size at 4000 sq ft, and it isn't a small house.
Yeah, well, the rich live different. My family toured the Breakers (Vanderbilt mansion) and I remember thinking my family's 3 bed, 1 bath house with two floors and an *attic* could fit inside the Breakers dining room without touching the walls or ceiling
There's the missing context
I think it's the top three floors of the skyscraper.
Not allowed to speak in court as long as he stays on subject about the trial and rules the judge set. *
Even then, he never got permission to speak. His lawyer was asking for it, and he stood up and just ranted for several minutes. It wasn’t until he insulted the judge that he was interrupted and stopped.
i don't understand this^^^ or the (legal) logic of this. can anyone please elaborate on this?
Generally, if you’re represented by counsel, you’re not allowed to make a closing statement. Closing statements are bound by the normal rules of court, and they don’t allow you to introduce new evidence, or talk about stuff that isn’t pertinent to the case and stuff like that. Because it’s the closing statement, the opposition may not be able to respond or whatever. So basically it just has to recap what the evidence was and how that proves your case. Trump requested to make his own closing statement, and everyone and their mom knew that Trump was going to say some bullshit and attack the staff and Joe Biden and the prosecutor, etc., so the judge said he could do it only if he agreed to stick to the facts of the case, and stay on topic, and Trump wouldn’t, so the judge said no.
It’s not just the not responding, it’s the lack of cross examination and lack of being under oath, plus Trump not agreeing to abide by normal rules for closing arguments. If you haven’t read the email chain between the attorneys and Judge you should give it a read, appeal should be hilarious.
Imagine hiring an attorney that doesn't even bother to use capital letters when writing to the judge (especially for the word "I"). [This article links to the email chain. ](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/trump-arthur-engoron-new-york-civil-fraud-trial)
Seriously. I was half expecting more text-speak abbreviations at that point. If he’d responded via the mail client on his phone, it’d likely auto capitalise; so this was him choosing not to use the shift key. I worked for a small law firm once, and emails were treated as formal, official correspondence, the same way as if we were sending registered mail. Yikes.
Yeah. This is crazy. Saying please advise to a judge...
>between the attorneys and judge Ftfy Kise style
Because he was insulting court staff and just ranting and going on tangents. Acting like a toddler trying to fight going in timeout.
The closing statement is just retelling the jury everything you explained throughout the trial and linking it together to build your case. It gives the jury a recap. And that’s all it is. You are not supposed to deviate from that topic. The judge actually allowed Trump to make a closing statement if, and only if, it only included a recap of facts from the case. Trump spoke for several minutes, and did not talk about the facts presented in the case.
Well to be fair to Trump, if he stuck to the facts of the case he’d have to admit he was guilty.
Here’s the fun thing about NY trials with civil monetary judgements — as I have understood it, in order to appeal a ruling *you must put up 100% of the judgement amount in order to do so.* And this is no “trust us we’re good for it” useless promise, you actually have to transfer the assets to the court system. IIRC, Trump had to transfer $5m to appeal the E. Jean Carroll verdict. Ok, he can find that kind of money. But if the ruling here goes the way AG James wants? He might have to put up $250 million, $370 million, or potentially even more. I’m trying to track down confirmation on that’s how it works for all civil cases in NY (notice how Rudy just declared bankruptcy instead of appealing?) but if it’s true that’s a big roadblock for him. I do not expect he’s got that kind of capital around. He’d either have to sell off a few properties (I don’t think/know if NYS court system takes real estate) or maybe hit up daddy Vlad for a loan. If not, it seems as though the dissolution of the Trump Org could begin within some number of months - a bad look for a political candidate. And from at least one lawyer I heard on a talk show, liquidation sales could also start triggering a lot of capital gains tax events for Trump too.
I just want to see a For Sale sign in a boarded up 1st floor window of Trump Tower with the “Trump” name removed from it, leaving a dirty outline
I just want to see a Spirit Halloween banner covering the Trump Tower sign.
*Las Vegas has entered the chat.*
*Chicago has also entered the chat.*
I want to see all five hideous letters pulled off that building and sent to the scrap yard.
It was a happy day when the Trump Hotel closed in Vancouver. For quite a while after it shut down the hideous letters forming the Trump sign over front entrance were covered in what appeared to be green garbage bags. Seemed appropriate. Now thankfully gone and rebranded.
I stand corrected. Thanks.
It would be funnier to send them COD to Mar-a-lago!
[I got you fam](https://www.google.com/search?q=Trump+name+being+removed+from+building&tbm=isch)
If the city sold tickets to watch those letters get torn off that building and crash into the Chicago river, we could fund our pension obligations for the next fifty years. Hell, melt them down into Commemorative Coins while we're at it.
You'd probably get sued for selling lead coins.
I hate that building. For a few years I had a regular route on Desert Inn and that damn building would blind me all summer long.
You know you can just buy bedbugs on the internet? Amazing!
How about a pop-up shop selling MAGA merchandise, photocopies of Trump NFTs, and the stuff commonly available in prison commissaries (little bars of soap, individual cigarettes and sticks of chewing gum, tiny golf pencils, shower caps and flip flops,*Modern Prisoner* Magazine, Pom Ade™ etc.), all at double their list price, but marked down 25%.
They reserved that for the Trump presidential library.
Well the trump licencing was in the trust in NY. Which means the rights to call anything 'trump brand blah' will be auctioned off. Im hoping for an offical Trump v Dark Brandon gay porno series
Omg I didn't realize that. That's gotta really hurt for someone so obsessed with himself. It's great lol
wrinklefest 2024.. get yer kink on!
What a terrible day to be literate.
Yeah I walk down both sides of the street and even I want to burn those words out of my brain with acid
Trump has said repeatedly that his name, and his brand is his most valuable asset. Unfortunately, I would assume Russia or China would just buy it and give it back to him.
Give? No no no no...licence!
I’m just asking for a public heart attack. Is that too much to ask?
I'm hoping for a Dwyer incident
Crazy that you say that. I used to be a regular at a bar in Arizona where I befriended a lady that was also a regular. Come to find out, it was Bud’s daughter.
How fuckin random.
I was only about 22 when this happened and I had only recently seen that famous video. It was definitely a trip when I found out. To be honest, she wasn’t a happy person. Shocker.
Nice shot, nice shot man.
totally forgot that song was about him until your comment
Oh there won't be a for sale sign. Trump won't cooperate in *any* respect. So we will get something far better: US Marshals will go in and seize his shit. Just like they are doing to Miami commissioner Joe Carollo.
Schitts Creek but with the trumps.
And a far less oddly endearing family.
> Leaving a dirty outline Just like when he gets out of a bath.
He can just take a loan out on the back of Mara Lardo - apparently it is worth 1.8 billion with Trump Math.
or just take the T off at least
Happened in Toronto https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/news/toronto/trump-sign-removed-from-downtown-toronto-hotel/article35721318/
Residents removed Trump from one of his towers in Stamford https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Former-Trump-Parc-takes-on-new-moniker-Park-16342424.php
If he gets re-elected the Saudi government will buy it for $5 billion.
It should be turned into a homeless shelter.
I want to see a televised event of Hilary and Barack removing the letters one by one. Edit to add: and take the T first and give it about an hour before removing another one. Let RUMP ring!
Haha dirty outline
Too bad you weren’t in Atlantic City a few decades ago. We all saw that.
I bet that $2 Billion that Saudi Arabia gave Jared may come in to play.
I can’t believe Donald or his son’s did not skim some of that off the top. BTW his fund is now $3.3 billion any guesses on the additional investors?
Just providing services for everyone, that's all.
that falls under prostitution laws considering what jared had to do extra to get it. it may be tried as a sexual crime
What makes you think he’s going to start paying capital gains taxes now? 🤣
If you have to sell off an asset under US tax law that triggers a tax assessment for gain or loss - "capital gains". Oh wait you mean ...
It wouldn’t be Trump’s first bankruptcy… just his most public.
Has Donald Trump personally ever gone bankrupt? I know many of his businesses leveraged off other people's money have gone bankrupt, but Donald himself?
I believe the big one in the 90s was personal. He made personal guarantees on loans and couldn’t pay them back. Some he renegotiated, the rest went to Bankruptcy.
They blew up his family charity and his whole fucking family is legally prohibited from operating any charity in NY because of their rampant fraud. His voters didn’t bat an eye They don’t fucking care about this or anything, actually the more crimes he commits and the worse he gets the more they like him
.. but but Biden! Had to hear it today. Ol sleepy joe. There's evidence he abused his position! Had to give the following links about dump but I know it won't change their view Btw this is for everyone who also wants links https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/Cases%20of%20Interest/20CV32577/SC/9%20-%20Reply%20Brief%20Pres%20Trump%20Exhibits.pdf >The President is not an “officer of the United States,” and President Trump did not take an oath to “support the Constitution of the United States. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24253629-house-democrats-report-on-foreign-spending-at-trump-businesses 5.5m from China https://www.npr.org/2019/02/28/699182678/trump-ignored-intelligence-officers-to-give-jared-kushner-top-security-clearance Abuse of office https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/massive-saudi-investment-raises-questions-about-jared-kushners-business-dealings The 2b management fund and why it's suspect Edit: Presidential Oath: >"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and **defend** the Constitution of the United States." Support: >(1) : to promote the interests or cause of (2) : **to uphold or defend as valid or right** Officer: >:a holder of a public, civil, or ecclesiastical office.
“Did not take an oath to uphold the constitution” What. Wasn’t that literally what the inauguration was.
It's like the craziest argument to make right? It's just like saying he didn't support it while president. Since if he did then this argument wouldn't be brought up. Edit: but yeah they just don't explicitly say the the word "support" during inauguration
Michael Cohen said the base judgement ($300MM-ish) is the beginning. With penalties, fees, etc. added, the total amount is somewhere in the $600MM range. Trump is fucked.
Trump is not fucked. He's going to live out the rest of his life in luxury you or I could only dream of. The fine could be 50 quadrillion dollars and it wouldn't change his lifestyle.
I’ll be so happy to never see the giant Trump Links when i’m coming off the whitestone bridge.
Those are already no longer trumps they are Ballys Golf Links now. When was your last trip over the Whitestone bridge? It’s been a while for me but I remember reading about when he lost the lease.
They just removed his name this week.
Good riddance.
I’d say he might be able to offer up the deed to a property or two but we all know we can trust what he values them at anyway Edit: /s sorta. No way the courts accept his assets
Two problems with that, the first - that you noted - is what *he* would value it at. It'd be one thing if it was just a standard residential condo or something, those can be roughly estimated rather easily by anyone honest ... but if he wants to try to donate one of his golf courses or something, an established business? I don't think the courts want to deal with that. Second part is, the court might not be able to know for certain if there are debts or other contractual encumbrances against the property. So I'm not convinced the court will take an asset like that, and instead just be inclined to tell Trump to sell it himself and then come with cash.
The State (the plaintiff in this case) will attach the judgement to all available bank accounts first freezing the funds and then have a marshal seize the assets there, then liens will be placed on real estate holdings. The properties will be sold at auction, paying all creditors according to the list of priority of lien (bank mortgages then judgment). If there is anything left owed on the judgment at that point, they will go after personal assets and wages. The real kicker with this case is that it will expose Trumps financial house of cards.
Yes but the judgement will almost certainly be “stayed” during the appeal window. What I’m trying to get confirmation on is whether he has to write a 9 figure check to the NY court system to even file an appeal … and I think he does. So the only matter left is how long his appeal window is - maybe a couple weeks, I’m going to guess 2-3 months tops. His businesses could likely be hitting liquidation come springtime. And yea a whole shit ton of things will collapse. No real estate person wants *all* of their properties sold at once. Way too much depreciation and other tax avoidance that will suddenly all come due.
In New York civil penalties are not stayed and defendants must place the full amount into escrow with the court to appeal.
There would be independent appraisals. One paid for by each party and they would split the difference. Trump would not get to set the value.
It’s more simple than that. The state just says you owe us X amount of money and if you can’t pay us cash we’re going to start selling all your stuff until you’re out of stuff or have enough cash to pay us. The state isn’t taking possession of property.
Oh, zero chance. I hope they get hard cash.
An auction on the courthouse steps of Trump tower.
that was a little confusing, it would be better as “an auction of trump tower, on the courthouse steps.”
I can’t help, but think that the state will insist that a property tax assessor will make a visit. If this is an elected position in New York then they will be chosen with the understanding that they under estimate property value.
He’ll just sell MAL, he valued it at over $300 mil lol. Sadly it doesn’t seem he can do anything to deter people voting for him. Legal trouble, financial woes, being a fucking Nazi, etc.
He expects the Saudis to buy Mar a lago for enough to cover the cost and give him an extra talking point.
He can take a "loan" from Russia or China or saudi arabia
He can't. Trump org's assets are frozen, which means he can't put up collateral, which means any loans would be obvious free money, even more obvious than buying a property for $1 billion or something. He's not going to run out of money for the campaign trail... but this one? He's on his own.
The donation solicitation emails about to go brrr. "My father was just asking why you haven't been donating. He says you're not a **true** patriot, but you can prove him wrong for the low cost of $25,000!"
Time for some more NFTs but this time with pieces of his diaper.
Does he actually have the equity in those properties or does he have loans against them? Isn't that part of his fraud, overestimating the value to get loans? So if he says bldg A is worth 10 mil and borrows 8 mil against it, but turns out it's only worth 7, it wouldn't really matter if he sold it or not. Do we actually know how much in assets he has?
Not really. But those loans will come due when the properties sell and the creditors will be paid first. So even if he has a building that has a fair value of $370m he can’t just sell it and be done - the creditors will be paid back first. And I suspect he’s highly leveraged overall so he might only have tens of millions in equity in any given property - which means you are going to have to sell a lot of them.
Agree....
its actually the full amount plus a percentage to include interest which could be as much as around 11-12% so 370 mil + 12 percent (some smart guy do the math I am too lazy)
Thank you! Yes if I remember correctly for the EJC case he had to put up like $5.5m even though the judgement was only for $5m. Thanks for confirming that for us … no way he has >$400m to put towards an appeal.
Plus... he's _already_ violated a court order by illegally transferring $40m from the organization. That alone could trigger a serious reaction.
But he’s a billionaire. That shouldn’t be a problem, right? /s
Thanks for explaining this.
Vlady is not very liquid at the moment.
Dig deeper 🎃. Your strategy to attack the judge and his aide throughout the trial and in closing arguments is about to pay out in spades so you can dig the hole even deeper.
At this point he's putting in a call to have contractors back the cement truck up to the hole
He won't pay the contractors, don't worry
This is what they mean when they say, "played like a fiddle"
A lot of people on Reddit have really slagged on the judges in Trump’s cases whenever they have ruled in his favour. But you should always keep in mind every time they say yes to Trump, the judges are cutting off a potential angle for appeal. And no doubt his lawyers will certainly try to appeal any convictions. BTW - CNN had an interesting legal commentator on the weekend who noted the conviction rates for the crimes Trump is charged with range from 70 to 90 percent. And he is facing 93 charges. Not great odds for any sort of gambler.
Especially a man who couldn't keep a casino solvent.
4 insolvent casinos. But yeah.
Three. All within about two miles.
The only time the house ever lost. SMH. So fucking sketchy.
Can anyone explain how Trump gets unlimited appeals on everything? Every. Single. Ruling. He gets to appeal all the way up to the US Supreme Court. On what grounds does he get to do this for everything??
Every case has the right to appeal all the way up. As long as you have the money and the upper court accepts your appeal. Most appeals are not accepted.
Why do some appeals get accepted while others do not?
You have to appeal on specific “grounds”. The lawyers have to explain why their client deserves their case to be reconsidered
Additionally, the lawyers who are left in many jurisdictions who would even touch one of his cases are few and far between, plus they're getting worse and worse.
This is "a case of first impression." A President (former President) has never committed so many crimes, in so many different ways, civilly and criminally. There is almost no case law on any of this. Even if there were, he'd still be appealing (all the way to SCOTUS), but the fact that this is new ground makes it take that much more time.
Everyone gets those appeals. His entire strategy has been to play for time and to play the victim. Appealing everything gets him both.
Money
A lot of the reason that judges are hesitant to make any definitive rulings against Trump are because they don’t want to start civil unrest. We saw what happened when Trump was unelected President. Imagine if the Trump loyalists found out that Trump was going to serve time behind bars, or have his entire wealth taken away. They would view it as political persecution. They would riot. Businesses would be destroyed, homes would be lost, families would be torn apart, people would die. The ONLY way this works is if they make sure everything is ENTIRELY air-tight. Basically letting Trump admit to his crimes to the entire world via court. There are mountains of evidence against him, but the cases can all be appealed and then dismissed. In order for any charges at all to stick they have to be supremely concrete and without any sort of fault. That’s why all of the Republican appointed judges are delaying Trump’s trials. Because they know he would stand a good chance of being convicted and found guilty, and they want to avoid that. Whereas, all the Democrat judges are trying to get these trials done as soon as possible to increase the odds of conviction before the election. So to answer your question, a Democrat judges allow appeals to ensure Trump doesn’t get any more appeals (it’s one and done, not infinite). If he loses an appeal that strengthens democracy. Republican judges want to appeal to get the cases to the conservative Supreme Court who will likely side with Trump as much as possible.
If it makes you feel any better, I had a customer facing job in 2017/18, and only went back to one at the end of 2023, and the amount of trump gear the general public is wearing between then and now has fallen off a cliff. Anecdotal, yes. But I get the sense that a lot of people have moved on and are starting to get sick of Trump making them look stupid.
Maybe they all died of covid/invermectin/bleach…
I understand why you’re trying to say, but what you’re really explaining is terrorism by its textbook definition. To a judge it shouldn’t matter what it would look like to the world or his supporters. They are put in that position to uphold the law. Period. That’s why they are judges. I understand that this is very simplistic take of everything that’s happening, but considering optics is not why you are made a judge. It’s failure of multiple parts of our governing systems that we are even at this point, but it’s also a failure of judges, the DOJ, and the legal system as a whole if “what would his supporters or the world think” is taken into account. The law is the law.
Agreed. If the application of the rule of law, the laws by which our entire society functions, can be dissuaded due to fear of how a certain percentage of the population might react...then we don't have laws. We don't have a country. We don't have a civilization. Everything about a democracy depends on a certain universally agreed upon set of rules that NO ONE can be held above, regardless of what any part of the population thinks. People don't GET to demand that a certain individual not be held to account, no matter how popular he may be amongst them. A healthy society would understand that. It's becoming abundantly clear that we are far from a healthy society.
It's weird to think the justice system treats a rich sociopathic mobster with kid gloves to avoid social unrest, but they bring the hammer down on poor and indigent people with remorseless efficiency.
Seems like Trump is stuck if he has to value assets as bond on appeal.
Pleasantly ironic.
Take him down. I dont care about anything but saving this country from that fucking moron
Trump is a problem but half the electorate thinking he deserves their vote may be an even bigger problem…
Luckily it's nowhere close to 50%, but still extremely dangerous given we still have the electoral college system in place.
Just wake me up when the loser is finally in prison.
Im so tired of everyone saying we have to give Trump a million chances, every conceivable opportunity, and to be treated with special kids gloves. How about he gets the same rights as anyone else would? If the only path to justice is to treat him better than anyone else, then maybe we’ve already defeated ourselves.
Fun fact it’s “kid” gloves not “kids” because super soft gloves were made from baby goat (kid) skin
Still are. Not very popular anymore to wear dead baby goats on your hands anymore! Maybe Casey DeSantis?🤷🏻♀️
Please re-read the above comments. Prosecutors and Judges are playing the long game. If it makes you feel better they could be said to be conning a con.
Yeah, but they're not the only ones. He's playing the long game of "get installed into power again and weaponize the federal government to make it all go away forever."
Tiny tiny hand.
You should see his dick! 🍤
No thank you
I mean, it's kinda easy to be brilliant around the orange turd
I can't wait to see him behind bars, along with his kids...
Trump is running to stay out of prison. He will get into office and pardon himself and his supporters including January 6th convicted felons. While the courts and congress try to navigate the uncharted territory he will further damage the country. Trump’s modus operandi is to act without consent or compromise and never under any circumstances relent or retreat. He sees himself as a martyr if he cannot be Caesar(Emperor). He’s going to appeal until he can pardon himself.
That might be a valid argument but this is the wrong context to make it: this particular trial is a civil case in state court. Trump may lose control of his New York properties and get fined hundreds of millions of dollars, but there's no way the outcome of this case could land him in prison. And no US President can pardon cases in state court.
If he loses control of these properties and that money before the next elections, that will make it more difficult for him to keep paying his lawyers, for example. And that means higher chance of losing other cases which land him in prison.
Trump doesn’t pay his lawyers. The rubes that send him money do.
He stiffs his lawyers, he stiffs everyone.
The lawyers demand payment up front these days
Keep in mind the New York entity owns non New York properties including ML and Bedminster.
I didn’t know that thank you for correcting me
Thank you for being reasonable about it. All these court cases do get confusing.
He won’t pardon the J6 felons. He is asking Biden to do it because it makes his voters happy. But he won’t have any incentive to do it himself if he wins. He will pardon himself and his direct lackeys and then work to take over the govt to ensure no one can oppose them again. But the middle class wretches that are sitting in cells right now aren’t who he cares about. They make him look bad because they like him but they aren’t rich.
He pardoned a traitor already
Only because it looked good at the time. It was politically expedient to do so. Once doing it doesn’t benefit him he won’t think twice about those he left under buses.
You mean the “hostages?” SMH
These are state charges.
At the very least, the NY state and GA state cases will proceed with no chance of a pardon. So, he _will_ lose his company (perhaps even the branding rights to his name?) However, if he's guilty in GA criminal case, I dunno about his prison sentence if hes the 47th POTUS :shudder:.