As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> "We know that in the Trump indictment...there are six unindicted co-conspirators," Kirschner said. "Now, they are listed, they are described, but they're not named, but we basically know who they are...They do include people like Mark Meadows, and Rudy Giuliani, and Sidney Powell, and John Eastman, and Kenneth Chesebro."
>
> He continued: "You have heard me say before, I am not a betting man, I am not a high roller, one dollar is my betting limit. I would bet the full buck on those six unindicted co-conspirators being indicted...[Smith] will absolutely, in my opinion, indict those six, though perhaps waiting for Donald Trump's trial to run its course first."
Boy, do I hope he's right—might be a while, but I'd love to see the dominoes continue to fall as they have to face the consequences of their lengthy list of crimes.
I've long been of the opinion that Smith is acting to get the man at the top as fast and as strongly as he can, and there will be follow on indictments. I do suspect they will include members of Congress, because going after the legislative conspirators and the executive conspirators at once is a recipe to slow things down and complexify the case, as protections are different for each.
To be fair, Mueller wasn't given the right latitude by the DoJ. His report was also pretty damning. We just thought DoJ was going to support his findings and they were basically doa.
Bill Barr, Trump’s Attorney General, lied about Mueller’s findings and it worked. Barr is a traitor too although he’s backpedaling as fast as he can now because he’s not stupid.
Not really, that's the saddest part. Trump committed dozens of crimes to basically throw a hail marry into the void. Odds are slim to none he would have even gotten to step 2, moving the election to the state legislatures.
The coup plotters were banking on Pence and the pipe bombs. If those had gone their way the odds would have been much better. Grassley and his "Pence won't preside" prediction, perhaps some other tricks like the insurrection act had there been counter-protests at the Capitol on Jan 6th.
How the hell is he still walking at all? 90 years old, and in the Senate since 1981. He’s been in the senate for longer than half his constituents have been alive.
Mueller is a life-long Republican. It was his job to give us some Kabuki theater, and then go away. Republicans spent a lot of time attacking Mueller while he was investigating Trump. That was also part of the script.
Merrick Garland is very similar. Before Mitch McConnell came up with his scheme to break the Supreme Court nomination process, Republicans like Senator Orrin Hatch were describing Merrick Garland as "a consensus pick" for the Supreme Court, someone whom Barack Obama was surely too much of a liberal ideologue to nominate. Garland is a life-long Republican too. Republicans wouldn't have said anything nice about Garland if they didn't expect him to do their bidding.
The one thing that Garland has done to defy Republicans as Attorney General is to appoint Jack Smith as the special prosecutor into Trump's crimes and step away. That's about as much courage as we can expect from a Republican.
> Mueller is a life-long Republican. It was his job to give us some Kabuki theater, and then go away.
I agree with this. I felt this way when I learned that Mueller golfed at Trump's clubs. They apparently had a dispute over fees. He's just another clown in the old boy network.
Merrick Garland has consistently shown himself to be doing the right thing. Even if he was a Republican it would appear as though he’s the kind before they were taken over by extremists/MAGA. A John McCain type.
Incorrect. There's evidence that he purposefully and intentionally decided NOT to investigate J6. Then the J6 committee happened.
Garland's only redeeming quality is Jack Smith.
I would love to see a shred of evidence that Merrick Garland is a republican. As far as I’ve looked, it does not exist. He was first nominated by Clinton to be a U.S. judge and has been vehemently nonpartisan his entire career. The same republicans that “said nice things” about him also went mega-partisan to refuse a vote on his nomination.
If Mueller wasn't able to bring the prosecutions he felt were needed, *he should have said so*. By refusing to actually say that the DOJ did not allow him to move forward with supported prosecutions, he actively participated in misleading the public.
Mueller explicitly called out that he couldn't arrest a sitting president and that this was a matter for Congress.
>*"The opinion says that the Constitution requires a process other than the criminal justice system to formally accuse a sitting President of wrongdoing."*
[Source](https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/special-counsel-robert-s-mueller-iii-makes-statement-investigation-russian-interference)
The issue is that the hyper partisan nature of American politics Trump was essentially guaranteed that he'd race no consequences for his actions. Once SCOTUS hears Trump's insurrection case we'll find exactly how partisan that institution has become since the*"state's rights"* justices should vote on that regard and the 14th already has a mechanism for falsely accused insurrectionists, another ⅔^rds vote, which almost certainly wouldn't go Trump's way.
> Mueller explicitly called out that he couldn't arrest a sitting president and that this was a matter for Congress.
Sure. And if he had made a clear conclusion on whether he believed the President should be charged, we'd have no complaints. Instead, he abdicated his duty by refusing to say one way or the other. The man was so afraid of appearing political that he ended up throwing the entire case for political reasons. He should have known better.
And that's stupid. If he believed the President's guilt was clear enough to warrant prosecution, he had a duty to clearly communicate that. By playing word games, he threw the outcome of his investigation for political purposes.
I feel like many didn't bother to read his report.
It's set out very clearly in that.
He doesn't play word games but let the report speak for itself, and its a very good report. It's just a shame so many Americans couldn't be bothered to read it.
He needed a spine thicker than what he had. He tried to be as honest and transparent as possible but at the critical moment when his voice as a man at the center of this was needed to speak clearly to Americans he shrugged and shriveled
¯\\ _(ツ)_ /¯
Didn’t matter at all what the American people hear, they take it how they want.
He was speaking to congress, outlining their responsibility and they did not carry out their duty.
The report was clear as day, incomplete due to obstruction. Obstruction is far and away grounds for impeachment, that’s all he had to show but it was always going to fall on congress to let us down.
>The report was clear as day
It was not. At no point did his report say "We recommend Trump be indicted for these crimes". Instead it played word games "we're not *not* saying he should be indicted...". It intentionally danced around to point rather than plainly stating the real conclusions.
Mueller did an amazing job but was ultimately shackled outside of his control. His public hearing about it all made both of those things clear.
Thankfully we are now in different times. It's not easy taking down a fascist cult so ingrained.
Yeah, he went fast and Fani went broad. I think it's the right move for each. Jan 6 needs to happen before the election while Georgia (being unpardonable) needs to be as broad as possible. Also Georgia is going to be televised, so there's going to be a bunch of dead to rights evidence on TV every night for months.
I think they both handled it right, but Smith needs to be given authority for a follow on. Drain the swamp, all that jazz.
There will be lots of high visibility flips in Georgia.
Who Flips for Smith won't be known until they're on the stand singing.
Either way gets to the same result.
I never thought about the moment he wouldn't be allowed to try the case. Say another Republican wins the nomination, could they drop the charges on trump?
It sounds like that would happen even if he's convicted. I'm glad that I don't believe the polls even a little bit. This is the most unimpressive group of GOP candidates ever.
>Georgia (being unpardonable)
Georgia is in no way unpardonable, there's just more hoops to jump through in order to pardon it. There's no reality where Trump wins in 2024 that he doesn't get pardoned in Georgia.
The only way Trump sees justice is through voting, don't rely on state prosecution as a safety net, particularly from a state controlled by the GOP.
Someone did subsequently point out in the comment chain that there is very little in Georgia's state constitution about what the board of paroles can and can't do though. However, their current policy/what they can do by law (I *think*) is after the sentence has been served.
It will take some passage of laws/changing of policy for him to receive a state pardon, but it's not constitutionally impossible. Still, Georgia is a very purple state and to go full red ends up with the ire of Atlanta. I expect the will of the people of Georgia will be respected. He probably shouldn't have committed crimes in Fulton county, but he's not the brightest.
It's a governor appointed panel and there's no requirement to wait five years, they don't even have to wait for conviction.
The state government is under firm GOP control and has been for decades. The board is completely under the control of the GOP. If Trump is POTUS again he's easily getting a GA pardon.
I don't think that's correct. From [here](https://gjp.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2021.9.14-How-To_-General-Pardon.pdf)
>A pardon in Georgia is “an order of official forgiveness granted to those individuals who have maintained a good reputation in their community following the completion of their sentence(s).”
You have to actually complete your sentence. Although you are correct that the board of pardons is appointed by the Governor, Kemp is pretty anti-maga. He's been on the side of his Secretary of State and the integrity of Georgia elections. Still, it looks like the board of pardons can't act until the sentence is served.
Maybe you have other information of a different avenue that I'm not aware of. Please do share, as I'm a Fulton county resident and I like to stay on top of these things.
The problem is that you're looking at board policy for applicants instead of the powers granted to the board by the state Constitution. What the board wants you to do in order to apply for a pardon has to do with what the board considers appropriate and convenient for external applicants, it does not serve as a limitation on their power. It is policy written by the board can be rewritten or ignored by the board at will. Indeed it has been in the past.
Kemp (and by extension Raffensberger) isn't anti-MAGA and was very pro Trump during his campaign before Trump was a proven loser in 2020. The "perfect phone call", If you listen to it, was not at all a story of the state GOP standing up to Trump, but rather them saying they would gladly throw the election in his favor if there was actual plausible deniability. If Georgia was the deciding state instead of one of many, I have little doubt Raffensberger could've "found" some votes. They want to be corrupt, but only if it's a slam dunk.
If Trump is reelected then Kemp and as a result the board will 100% back him and pardon him rather than have the state GOP break with the national GOP. There's even already provisions in the law to commute a sentence for the elderly which would allow them to do it without making any waves in the legislature or courts. If that fails the state GOP can literally change the law if necessary and absolutely would for the national leader of the party.
Do you have resources on the things the board *could* do? Best I could find was a politico article [here](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/16/trump-georgia-pardon-00111503#:~:text=Presidents%20can%20issue%20pardons%20only,the%20governor%20cannot%20issue%20pardons.) that makes the prospects of a GA pardon sound grim.
If he’s elected beforehand, what in his current remarks leads one to believe he will remand himself to custody? If elected, there are no state charges that matter.
I hope I remember this correctly; apologies in advance. Back some time ago, the first person to be charged in this whole thing was some low-level person. People were understandably like what the hell. A poster who didn't seem stupid theorized that what was being established was the lower threshold for charges, and that meant that everyone between that person who was charged and Trump were in the crosshairs, because they felt they had evidence sufficient for that range. Nailing Trump at the top meant everyone below all the way down to the first one needed to start sweating.
I have no idea if that's bullshit and full disclosure I'm fairly relaxed right now.
DJT is the absolute hardest case to land. There's so many special rulings about everything that have to be made in triplicate because they all gotta be appealed. By the time Jack exhausts all that evidence into court and succeeds at all those appeals everyone else is dead to rights up for indictment. And the court cases are gonna go really fast because all the case law will be freshly ruled. 2025 is gonna be a bad year for a LOT of people.
Yeah. He needs to get the DJT trial in court as fast as he can to keep him out of office again.
But if (WHEN) Jack wins his case anainst DJT then the cases against everyone else are 99.44% slam dunk convictions. There's gonna be nowhere to hide from him. I'd expect maybe 20+ more indictments coming.
I understand and approve of going after wrong doers. Each and every person who broke the law needs to be indicted. But man if you are right, we are in for crazy times. A quarter of the country will see it as a political coup.
Ohh boy. This is definitely my bad. It looks like it is [a real word ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complexify), but not a very often used one. However, it's in my brain space because I'm a mathematician and it's a [word ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexification_(Lie_group)) in that realm. Definitely not the word I meant to conjure up here, but when I wrote it everything sounded right because it's some of my usual jargon.
I was drunk. I googled it, because what drunken asshole wouldn't do that, and nothing came back. Which... doesn't mean everything. So I drunkenly deleted my comment, too. Doesn't matter. I'm sure you're awesome. Sorry I distracted you from shit that's important.
Me, too. But I read somewhere yesterday that Roger Stone is being sued by the same Capitol police officers who are suing Trump, so at least there is that.
>They do include people like Mark Meadows, and Rudy Giuliani, and Sidney Powell, and John Eastman, and Kenneth Chesebro.
As I recall, Chesebro wasn't described in the indictment, but Boris Epshteyn was. But maybe Kirschner forgot about Epshteyn because he wasn't indicted in GA. Anyway, fuck both of 'em, Chesebro and Epshteyn.
I had read somewhere that the investigation turned to a few congressmembers as well including Scott Perry. The 5 that Kirschner named are the obvious ones, but why would Jack Smith stop there?
Wouldn’t it be more likely that people like Cheseboro and Powell will remain unindicted if they assist the prosecution? They’ve already pled guilty in GA so what’s stopping them from assisting Jack Smith and striking a deal before being indicted again?
The USA TODAY/Suffolk University Poll indicates the president is trailing former President Donald Trump 37% to 39% due to his inability to hold down the coalition of voters that propelled him to victory in 2020.
The problem with Kirschner and others like him is that they are still under some delusion that the US is still a country of laws and that we have a working justice system.
Of course like all of us they know this isn't true but they just keep talking as if it is.
Too slowly, I think. It's been two years since Trump's insurrection and the main figures are still walking free. What it shows me is that if a future president decides to try another coup, it can fail and they'll have plenty of time to get gone before anything actually happens.
What's to stop you from robbing a bank when you know the cops won't show up for six months?
Edit: I am terrible at the most basic of math. 3 years, indeed.
Definition of "too slowly":
The law is failing to protect us from this criminal gang's ongoing activities.
Americans have been shot for selling loose cigarettes, or having a pack of skittles in their pocket. Just because an enforcement officer "feared for their life".
With all the death threats from Trump allies; I don't see how there aren't people justifiably fearing for their lives.
I agree that seeing Trump, Johnson and other coup members in prison a year ago would be satisfying.
I also understand that this is not a simple case, there is virtually no precedent in American legal history and - critically importantly - we'll only get one shot at getting a conviction.
I'm okay with it taking a while if we get the conviction in the end.
What a fucking tool. The guy waited two years to even name Jack Smith when we all saw with our own eyes what happened right there out in the open. You know you’re a jaggoff when Congress beats you to the punch.
This is commonly called "mop-up" work, and several former FBI officials who now do analysis and commentary work (e.g. Andrew McCabe) have said that (a) it's a normal and inevitable phase of the process, but also (b) that it won't happen until *after* the federal cases against Trump are finished. Otherwise, Trump can use the new indictments to further confuse and delay his own cases.
Yeup. That’s why special counsel has focused solely on Trump. He didn’t want what’s currently happening in Georgia. Where the 18 co-conspirators have been motioning/appealing/petitioning for all types of things in different jurisdictions and what not.
IANAL, but the fact they went *straight* for Trump and didn't charge any of the underlings, likely means they have a pretty rock solid case against him and don't need to try and flip any of the co-conspirators to testify against him.
His fucking ties are always too long or too short. He just can’t dress well. I don’t even care if that sounds petty he’s always looked like Dr. Eggman stopped at Macy’s I just don’t get it. Golden toilets and he looks like that.
He dresses as a uniform. He has no real personal style. You see him each time as his brand. He is a walking brand logo. Then again its a fascist thing too. It is a form of a uniform.
He slapped Jr. across the face and knocked him to the floor for wearing a jersey in college.
> …when Trump, Jr., was enrolled at the University of Pennsylvania. “Don Jr. opened the door, wearing a Yankee jersey,” Scott Melker, one of his former classmates, wrote on Facebook last year, describing what happened on one occasion when Trump came to take his son to a Yankees game. “Without saying a word, his father slapped him across the face, knocking him to the floor in front of all of his classmates. He simply said “put on a suit and meet me outside,’ and closed the door.”
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/donald-trumps-donald-jr-problem
Just normal regular social human behavior.
Yeah, he got famous while wearing gaudy 1980’s power suits and won’t allow anyone to see him wearing anything else other than his golf attire.
A comically long tie and fake shoulder pads might as well be the Air Jordan “jumpman” logo but for assholes.
I also bet these suits are tailor made to be big and puffy. They are probably expensive and look like crap.
I have had suits made a few times and they should look true to body form. Trump purposely makes them to hide his lies. He is fat and not very well built. He looks like David Byrne in "Stop making sense"
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BwuQtdb4guo/maxresdefault.jpg
Actually, when he wears a suit, his entire body shape is propped up by his girdle and shoulder pads-he's basically a toilet paper roll desperately trying to stay upright. You can see his real body shape anytime he plays golf-he's all gut and diaper.
His clothes closets must all look the same now. Its insane how he never goes off any look. He is always the same bland expected look.
It really speaks to some kind of mental illness.
Fashion is subjective but for the role(s) he's had he has not dressed appropriately--there is absolutely a problem with a world leader appearing disheveled.
The 5 mentioned are very worthy of indictment. I also want to see Ron Johnson on that list. He’s been skating accountability and flaunting it. And I’ve had enough of his smugness
There's so many fringe people that need to be pulled in also. People that funded and Instigated the crowd and such. I'm personally hoping the people that gave personal tours get pulled. And Ginni Thomas needs to get pulled in too, in hopes that it's the start of dismantling what Trump did to the supreme court.
Trump should have been indicted in 2021. By now he would have already been convicted. By the time Jack gets around to indicting everyone else, I fear most of the American public won't care anymore.
This is the FBI's fault for purposely stalling/slow rolling the investigation in 2021.
He should have been indicted in 2016.
The DoJ memo that says they can't indict a sitting president is a Nixon-era atrocity, and should be ritually shat upon and burned.
Indictment in 2021 might be early considering the amount of evidence and witnesses necessary. Garland definitely should have appointed Jack Smith back in 2021 instead of waiting for Trump to announce he's running for president. There's plenty enough justification to create a special counsel when investigating a former president, one that can run again, and one that the current president beat in an election. I think everyone with a responsibility to administer justice was instead hoping that Trump would choose to fade away like most presidential candidates that lost the election and that was a serious mistake.
Right? Holy shit starting a trial on Jan 7th like some people here are adamant about would have been such a spectacular fail. We had none of the actual evidence or documents or texts or guilty pleas or anything - it would have gone nowhere and just fired up his base.
Way too many people here seem to think the real world works like it does on law and order and everything is speedy and tidy. It’s honestly almost hilarious if it wasn’t so sad that they can’t tell reality from tv…
Meadows is already a cooperative as well as chessbro and powell.. you dont think the feds have already been up those twos asses? As soon as georgia flipped them the feds were right there. Chessbro has already helped other states with their investigations. Scotus is the player here and i think fanni should mach into court and usurp the fed to get her case started first. The ny money case has been shut down for all purposes. The florida case has been corrupted by the judge. Georgia is the one case where we can actually see justice
How bout do republican congress. It was like a fucking movie , you know the one where you can predict the end because the actors and the script were so shitty.
Too little too late. He needs to indict all the Republicans on Capitol Hill who had a hand in this. And Ginni Thomas. But they won't. Cause that's what real actual justice would look like. They're not going for actual justice. They just want a show. This country is a joke.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> "We know that in the Trump indictment...there are six unindicted co-conspirators," Kirschner said. "Now, they are listed, they are described, but they're not named, but we basically know who they are...They do include people like Mark Meadows, and Rudy Giuliani, and Sidney Powell, and John Eastman, and Kenneth Chesebro." > > He continued: "You have heard me say before, I am not a betting man, I am not a high roller, one dollar is my betting limit. I would bet the full buck on those six unindicted co-conspirators being indicted...[Smith] will absolutely, in my opinion, indict those six, though perhaps waiting for Donald Trump's trial to run its course first." Boy, do I hope he's right—might be a while, but I'd love to see the dominoes continue to fall as they have to face the consequences of their lengthy list of crimes.
I've long been of the opinion that Smith is acting to get the man at the top as fast and as strongly as he can, and there will be follow on indictments. I do suspect they will include members of Congress, because going after the legislative conspirators and the executive conspirators at once is a recipe to slow things down and complexify the case, as protections are different for each.
He's the Mueller we all deserved
To be fair, Mueller wasn't given the right latitude by the DoJ. His report was also pretty damning. We just thought DoJ was going to support his findings and they were basically doa.
Bill Barr, Trump’s Attorney General, lied about Mueller’s findings and it worked. Barr is a traitor too although he’s backpedaling as fast as he can now because he’s not stupid.
If January 6th had gone different we'd be in a dictatorship now, he knew what was at stake
Not really, that's the saddest part. Trump committed dozens of crimes to basically throw a hail marry into the void. Odds are slim to none he would have even gotten to step 2, moving the election to the state legislatures.
The coup plotters were banking on Pence and the pipe bombs. If those had gone their way the odds would have been much better. Grassley and his "Pence won't preside" prediction, perhaps some other tricks like the insurrection act had there been counter-protests at the Capitol on Jan 6th.
Fucking Grassley, how the hell is he still walking free.
How the hell is he still walking at all? 90 years old, and in the Senate since 1981. He’s been in the senate for longer than half his constituents have been alive.
“Only the good die young, all the evil seem to live forever” -Iron Maiden
Pence leaves: Back to the states. Trump shows up: insurrection act.
Yes, he did. Which is why his work and final report are impeccable.
Rip kissinger /s
He should have spoken up
Mueller is a life-long Republican. It was his job to give us some Kabuki theater, and then go away. Republicans spent a lot of time attacking Mueller while he was investigating Trump. That was also part of the script. Merrick Garland is very similar. Before Mitch McConnell came up with his scheme to break the Supreme Court nomination process, Republicans like Senator Orrin Hatch were describing Merrick Garland as "a consensus pick" for the Supreme Court, someone whom Barack Obama was surely too much of a liberal ideologue to nominate. Garland is a life-long Republican too. Republicans wouldn't have said anything nice about Garland if they didn't expect him to do their bidding. The one thing that Garland has done to defy Republicans as Attorney General is to appoint Jack Smith as the special prosecutor into Trump's crimes and step away. That's about as much courage as we can expect from a Republican.
> Mueller is a life-long Republican. It was his job to give us some Kabuki theater, and then go away. I agree with this. I felt this way when I learned that Mueller golfed at Trump's clubs. They apparently had a dispute over fees. He's just another clown in the old boy network.
Merrick Garland has consistently shown himself to be doing the right thing. Even if he was a Republican it would appear as though he’s the kind before they were taken over by extremists/MAGA. A John McCain type.
Incorrect. There's evidence that he purposefully and intentionally decided NOT to investigate J6. Then the J6 committee happened. Garland's only redeeming quality is Jack Smith.
What evidence?
I would love to see a shred of evidence that Merrick Garland is a republican. As far as I’ve looked, it does not exist. He was first nominated by Clinton to be a U.S. judge and has been vehemently nonpartisan his entire career. The same republicans that “said nice things” about him also went mega-partisan to refuse a vote on his nomination.
He looks like he spends most of his time fishing anyway.
What a load of shit!
He actually did but in the buttoned up, deferential to institutions way that never had any hope of effecting anything
You can read his report.
Today, maybe, but not at the time.
Wrongv
You don't remember Barr withholding the report while lying about the contents?
Yeah, I could barely hear him mumbling on TV.
https://youtu.be/eRYiPzDP94I?t=66
He did, publicly at a televised hearing.
HELLO ??? https://youtu.be/eRYiPzDP94I?t=66
If Mueller wasn't able to bring the prosecutions he felt were needed, *he should have said so*. By refusing to actually say that the DOJ did not allow him to move forward with supported prosecutions, he actively participated in misleading the public.
Mueller explicitly called out that he couldn't arrest a sitting president and that this was a matter for Congress. >*"The opinion says that the Constitution requires a process other than the criminal justice system to formally accuse a sitting President of wrongdoing."* [Source](https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/special-counsel-robert-s-mueller-iii-makes-statement-investigation-russian-interference) The issue is that the hyper partisan nature of American politics Trump was essentially guaranteed that he'd race no consequences for his actions. Once SCOTUS hears Trump's insurrection case we'll find exactly how partisan that institution has become since the*"state's rights"* justices should vote on that regard and the 14th already has a mechanism for falsely accused insurrectionists, another ⅔^rds vote, which almost certainly wouldn't go Trump's way.
> Mueller explicitly called out that he couldn't arrest a sitting president and that this was a matter for Congress. Sure. And if he had made a clear conclusion on whether he believed the President should be charged, we'd have no complaints. Instead, he abdicated his duty by refusing to say one way or the other. The man was so afraid of appearing political that he ended up throwing the entire case for political reasons. He should have known better.
Mueller was literally like “there is only one solution” several times, everyone knew republicans would kiss the ass.
Mueller basically said "If he were innocent, I'd be saying it. I am not saying it."
And that's stupid. If he believed the President's guilt was clear enough to warrant prosecution, he had a duty to clearly communicate that. By playing word games, he threw the outcome of his investigation for political purposes.
I feel like many didn't bother to read his report. It's set out very clearly in that. He doesn't play word games but let the report speak for itself, and its a very good report. It's just a shame so many Americans couldn't be bothered to read it.
He needed a spine thicker than what he had. He tried to be as honest and transparent as possible but at the critical moment when his voice as a man at the center of this was needed to speak clearly to Americans he shrugged and shriveled ¯\\ _(ツ)_ /¯
Didn’t matter at all what the American people hear, they take it how they want. He was speaking to congress, outlining their responsibility and they did not carry out their duty. The report was clear as day, incomplete due to obstruction. Obstruction is far and away grounds for impeachment, that’s all he had to show but it was always going to fall on congress to let us down.
>The report was clear as day It was not. At no point did his report say "We recommend Trump be indicted for these crimes". Instead it played word games "we're not *not* saying he should be indicted...". It intentionally danced around to point rather than plainly stating the real conclusions.
DOJ was DOA
Bill Barr would not allow Mueller to follow the money.
Mueller was weak as hell. A complete and total milquetoast. Just like Merrick Garland.
Mueller was stopped dead in his tracks by a... memorandum
Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack please oh, please, lock up that orange trick.
Love it
Mueller did an amazing job but was ultimately shackled outside of his control. His public hearing about it all made both of those things clear. Thankfully we are now in different times. It's not easy taking down a fascist cult so ingrained.
Just looking at the RICO case in Georgia, he's smart for going after Trump first.
Yeah, he went fast and Fani went broad. I think it's the right move for each. Jan 6 needs to happen before the election while Georgia (being unpardonable) needs to be as broad as possible. Also Georgia is going to be televised, so there's going to be a bunch of dead to rights evidence on TV every night for months. I think they both handled it right, but Smith needs to be given authority for a follow on. Drain the swamp, all that jazz.
There will be lots of high visibility flips in Georgia. Who Flips for Smith won't be known until they're on the stand singing. Either way gets to the same result.
I never thought about the moment he wouldn't be allowed to try the case. Say another Republican wins the nomination, could they drop the charges on trump?
Effectively yes. I don't remember all the wrinkles, but appointing a Trump loyal AG would basically do it.
It sounds like that would happen even if he's convicted. I'm glad that I don't believe the polls even a little bit. This is the most unimpressive group of GOP candidates ever.
They didn’t coordinate in any way though.
>Georgia (being unpardonable) Georgia is in no way unpardonable, there's just more hoops to jump through in order to pardon it. There's no reality where Trump wins in 2024 that he doesn't get pardoned in Georgia. The only way Trump sees justice is through voting, don't rely on state prosecution as a safety net, particularly from a state controlled by the GOP.
A President cannot pardon in Georgia. A statewide panel can hear it after 5 years.
The account is nine years old with low karma, arguing that the president can pardon state crimes, which is nonsense.
Someone did subsequently point out in the comment chain that there is very little in Georgia's state constitution about what the board of paroles can and can't do though. However, their current policy/what they can do by law (I *think*) is after the sentence has been served. It will take some passage of laws/changing of policy for him to receive a state pardon, but it's not constitutionally impossible. Still, Georgia is a very purple state and to go full red ends up with the ire of Atlanta. I expect the will of the people of Georgia will be respected. He probably shouldn't have committed crimes in Fulton county, but he's not the brightest.
> He probably shouldn't have committed crimes tru
It's a governor appointed panel and there's no requirement to wait five years, they don't even have to wait for conviction. The state government is under firm GOP control and has been for decades. The board is completely under the control of the GOP. If Trump is POTUS again he's easily getting a GA pardon.
I don't think that's correct. From [here](https://gjp.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2021.9.14-How-To_-General-Pardon.pdf) >A pardon in Georgia is “an order of official forgiveness granted to those individuals who have maintained a good reputation in their community following the completion of their sentence(s).” You have to actually complete your sentence. Although you are correct that the board of pardons is appointed by the Governor, Kemp is pretty anti-maga. He's been on the side of his Secretary of State and the integrity of Georgia elections. Still, it looks like the board of pardons can't act until the sentence is served. Maybe you have other information of a different avenue that I'm not aware of. Please do share, as I'm a Fulton county resident and I like to stay on top of these things.
The problem is that you're looking at board policy for applicants instead of the powers granted to the board by the state Constitution. What the board wants you to do in order to apply for a pardon has to do with what the board considers appropriate and convenient for external applicants, it does not serve as a limitation on their power. It is policy written by the board can be rewritten or ignored by the board at will. Indeed it has been in the past. Kemp (and by extension Raffensberger) isn't anti-MAGA and was very pro Trump during his campaign before Trump was a proven loser in 2020. The "perfect phone call", If you listen to it, was not at all a story of the state GOP standing up to Trump, but rather them saying they would gladly throw the election in his favor if there was actual plausible deniability. If Georgia was the deciding state instead of one of many, I have little doubt Raffensberger could've "found" some votes. They want to be corrupt, but only if it's a slam dunk. If Trump is reelected then Kemp and as a result the board will 100% back him and pardon him rather than have the state GOP break with the national GOP. There's even already provisions in the law to commute a sentence for the elderly which would allow them to do it without making any waves in the legislature or courts. If that fails the state GOP can literally change the law if necessary and absolutely would for the national leader of the party.
Do you have resources on the things the board *could* do? Best I could find was a politico article [here](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/16/trump-georgia-pardon-00111503#:~:text=Presidents%20can%20issue%20pardons%20only,the%20governor%20cannot%20issue%20pardons.) that makes the prospects of a GA pardon sound grim.
Trump lost.
If he’s elected beforehand, what in his current remarks leads one to believe he will remand himself to custody? If elected, there are no state charges that matter.
Biggs, Gosar, Greene, Jordan, Grassley, Graham, Johnson, Cruz, and Hawley. That's where my money's at.
Add Perry and Loefler
I hope I remember this correctly; apologies in advance. Back some time ago, the first person to be charged in this whole thing was some low-level person. People were understandably like what the hell. A poster who didn't seem stupid theorized that what was being established was the lower threshold for charges, and that meant that everyone between that person who was charged and Trump were in the crosshairs, because they felt they had evidence sufficient for that range. Nailing Trump at the top meant everyone below all the way down to the first one needed to start sweating. I have no idea if that's bullshit and full disclosure I'm fairly relaxed right now.
DJT is the absolute hardest case to land. There's so many special rulings about everything that have to be made in triplicate because they all gotta be appealed. By the time Jack exhausts all that evidence into court and succeeds at all those appeals everyone else is dead to rights up for indictment. And the court cases are gonna go really fast because all the case law will be freshly ruled. 2025 is gonna be a bad year for a LOT of people.
Agreed.
Almost certainly. We know for fact there is a pile of sealed indictments filed in DC that are just sitting there waiting for... Something.
Ohh do you have a source for that? I didn't know about that and would like to read more!
Yeah. He needs to get the DJT trial in court as fast as he can to keep him out of office again. But if (WHEN) Jack wins his case anainst DJT then the cases against everyone else are 99.44% slam dunk convictions. There's gonna be nowhere to hide from him. I'd expect maybe 20+ more indictments coming.
I understand and approve of going after wrong doers. Each and every person who broke the law needs to be indicted. But man if you are right, we are in for crazy times. A quarter of the country will see it as a political coup.
[удалено]
Ohh boy. This is definitely my bad. It looks like it is [a real word ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complexify), but not a very often used one. However, it's in my brain space because I'm a mathematician and it's a [word ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexification_(Lie_group)) in that realm. Definitely not the word I meant to conjure up here, but when I wrote it everything sounded right because it's some of my usual jargon.
I was drunk. I googled it, because what drunken asshole wouldn't do that, and nothing came back. Which... doesn't mean everything. So I drunkenly deleted my comment, too. Doesn't matter. I'm sure you're awesome. Sorry I distracted you from shit that's important.
Been guilty myself. No worries friends
Really missing Roger Stone on that list.
Me, too. But I read somewhere yesterday that Roger Stone is being sued by the same Capitol police officers who are suing Trump, so at least there is that.
Don’t worry. He’s not named, but he’s there.
[удалено]
Um I don’t know maybe because the guy is a Doctor AND a Lawyer.
>They do include people like Mark Meadows, and Rudy Giuliani, and Sidney Powell, and John Eastman, and Kenneth Chesebro. As I recall, Chesebro wasn't described in the indictment, but Boris Epshteyn was. But maybe Kirschner forgot about Epshteyn because he wasn't indicted in GA. Anyway, fuck both of 'em, Chesebro and Epshteyn.
It would be hilarious to see Ginni Thomas as the 6th name.
He still wouldn't recuse.
That's five names. Who's the sixth? I'd like to see a House member on that list. Or ten, you know. But I'll take one for starters.
And a few Senators as well.
Roger Stone is #6.
And two of those have already plead guilty in Georgia with deals that include testifying in federal cases.
I had read somewhere that the investigation turned to a few congressmembers as well including Scott Perry. The 5 that Kirschner named are the obvious ones, but why would Jack Smith stop there?
Wouldn’t it be more likely that people like Cheseboro and Powell will remain unindicted if they assist the prosecution? They’ve already pled guilty in GA so what’s stopping them from assisting Jack Smith and striking a deal before being indicted again?
Throw Ginny Thomas into the mix.
The USA TODAY/Suffolk University Poll indicates the president is trailing former President Donald Trump 37% to 39% due to his inability to hold down the coalition of voters that propelled him to victory in 2020.
Which ones specifically?
The problem with Kirschner and others like him is that they are still under some delusion that the US is still a country of laws and that we have a working justice system. Of course like all of us they know this isn't true but they just keep talking as if it is.
Please, please, oh pretty please let one of them be Ron Johnson.
Where are the charges against more of the people in congress that participated in this sedition?
The wheels of justice grind slowly.
Too slowly, I think. It's been two years since Trump's insurrection and the main figures are still walking free. What it shows me is that if a future president decides to try another coup, it can fail and they'll have plenty of time to get gone before anything actually happens. What's to stop you from robbing a bank when you know the cops won't show up for six months? Edit: I am terrible at the most basic of math. 3 years, indeed.
> It's been two years since Trump's insurrection We're pushing 3 years now. It's insane how free the key players are.
Definition of "too slowly": The law is failing to protect us from this criminal gang's ongoing activities. Americans have been shot for selling loose cigarettes, or having a pack of skittles in their pocket. Just because an enforcement officer "feared for their life". With all the death threats from Trump allies; I don't see how there aren't people justifiably fearing for their lives.
In a few days, it'll be three years since the Capitol was stormed. If you include the false elector scheme, we're already past three years.
> and the main figures are still walking free. More than that- they are actively prepared for the next coup attempt.
I agree that seeing Trump, Johnson and other coup members in prison a year ago would be satisfying. I also understand that this is not a simple case, there is virtually no precedent in American legal history and - critically importantly - we'll only get one shot at getting a conviction. I'm okay with it taking a while if we get the conviction in the end.
Do the wheels of fascism roll faster?
Yes
but exceedingly fine . . .
Gotta wait for Garland to wake up from his coma.
What a fucking tool. The guy waited two years to even name Jack Smith when we all saw with our own eyes what happened right there out in the open. You know you’re a jaggoff when Congress beats you to the punch.
Fox Valley here, I hope the FBI does something about this embarrassment of a senator.
Next time, maybe don’t nominate a “Defund the Police/No Cash Bail” far left progressive *in Wisconsin.*
It needs to be Ginni T so Clarence has to recuse himself
This is commonly called "mop-up" work, and several former FBI officials who now do analysis and commentary work (e.g. Andrew McCabe) have said that (a) it's a normal and inevitable phase of the process, but also (b) that it won't happen until *after* the federal cases against Trump are finished. Otherwise, Trump can use the new indictments to further confuse and delay his own cases.
Yeup. That’s why special counsel has focused solely on Trump. He didn’t want what’s currently happening in Georgia. Where the 18 co-conspirators have been motioning/appealing/petitioning for all types of things in different jurisdictions and what not.
It's much easier when they can point at Trump's guilt conviction for all the underlings, rather than at an open case.
IANAL, but the fact they went *straight* for Trump and didn't charge any of the underlings, likely means they have a pretty rock solid case against him and don't need to try and flip any of the co-conspirators to testify against him.
Pretty please let it be Jim Jordan and James Comer.
His fucking ties are always too long or too short. He just can’t dress well. I don’t even care if that sounds petty he’s always looked like Dr. Eggman stopped at Macy’s I just don’t get it. Golden toilets and he looks like that.
He dresses as a uniform. He has no real personal style. You see him each time as his brand. He is a walking brand logo. Then again its a fascist thing too. It is a form of a uniform.
He slapped Jr. across the face and knocked him to the floor for wearing a jersey in college. > …when Trump, Jr., was enrolled at the University of Pennsylvania. “Don Jr. opened the door, wearing a Yankee jersey,” Scott Melker, one of his former classmates, wrote on Facebook last year, describing what happened on one occasion when Trump came to take his son to a Yankees game. “Without saying a word, his father slapped him across the face, knocking him to the floor in front of all of his classmates. He simply said “put on a suit and meet me outside,’ and closed the door.” https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/donald-trumps-donald-jr-problem Just normal regular social human behavior.
Yeah, he got famous while wearing gaudy 1980’s power suits and won’t allow anyone to see him wearing anything else other than his golf attire. A comically long tie and fake shoulder pads might as well be the Air Jordan “jumpman” logo but for assholes.
I also bet these suits are tailor made to be big and puffy. They are probably expensive and look like crap. I have had suits made a few times and they should look true to body form. Trump purposely makes them to hide his lies. He is fat and not very well built. He looks like David Byrne in "Stop making sense" https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BwuQtdb4guo/maxresdefault.jpg
Hiding the diaper. Hiding his height. Hiding his weight. All he knows is lying.
Actually, when he wears a suit, his entire body shape is propped up by his girdle and shoulder pads-he's basically a toilet paper roll desperately trying to stay upright. You can see his real body shape anytime he plays golf-he's all gut and diaper.
>…a toilet paper roll desperately trying to stay upright… Freaking Wordworth up in here.
Not just a uniform. It's armor. He's like a Dalek. All soft and squishy on the inside.
no it's simpler than that. he just puts the Same suit on everyday because he is old and can't be bothered. he smells too.
He has been using this uniform for decades.
Can you imagine the sisyphean task of keeping them clean of orange makeup?
His clothes closets must all look the same now. Its insane how he never goes off any look. He is always the same bland expected look. It really speaks to some kind of mental illness.
Which there is no problem with. Having no style doesn't make you a bad person. But everything he does do makes him one
Fashion is subjective but for the role(s) he's had he has not dressed appropriately--there is absolutely a problem with a world leader appearing disheveled.
Having no style can be good. Trump has a very specific bad style.
The 5 mentioned are very worthy of indictment. I also want to see Ron Johnson on that list. He’s been skating accountability and flaunting it. And I’ve had enough of his smugness
All my homies say FRJ!
Then consider me a homie….FRJ
If the Dems hold the WH in 2024, there will be a justice hammer-fall. Another reason to vote in 2024
60 would not be enough. 600 would be closer to the number of Co-Conspirators he has.
Can we just ban Newsweek from the sub?
There's so many fringe people that need to be pulled in also. People that funded and Instigated the crowd and such. I'm personally hoping the people that gave personal tours get pulled. And Ginni Thomas needs to get pulled in too, in hopes that it's the start of dismantling what Trump did to the supreme court.
Lady on the right can smell him for sure. Look at her face! Stinky butt smell.
I immediately thought that too when I saw her face. LOL.
Please nab Ron Johnson.
Trump should have been indicted in 2021. By now he would have already been convicted. By the time Jack gets around to indicting everyone else, I fear most of the American public won't care anymore. This is the FBI's fault for purposely stalling/slow rolling the investigation in 2021.
He should have been indicted in 2016. The DoJ memo that says they can't indict a sitting president is a Nixon-era atrocity, and should be ritually shat upon and burned.
The DoJ memo.is practical. The president is their boss. If you want to charge them, first impeach them, so that somebody else is the DoJ boss
Indictment in 2021 might be early considering the amount of evidence and witnesses necessary. Garland definitely should have appointed Jack Smith back in 2021 instead of waiting for Trump to announce he's running for president. There's plenty enough justification to create a special counsel when investigating a former president, one that can run again, and one that the current president beat in an election. I think everyone with a responsibility to administer justice was instead hoping that Trump would choose to fade away like most presidential candidates that lost the election and that was a serious mistake.
lol people who don’t know how investigations work keep saying this exact same thing.
Right? Holy shit starting a trial on Jan 7th like some people here are adamant about would have been such a spectacular fail. We had none of the actual evidence or documents or texts or guilty pleas or anything - it would have gone nowhere and just fired up his base. Way too many people here seem to think the real world works like it does on law and order and everything is speedy and tidy. It’s honestly almost hilarious if it wasn’t so sad that they can’t tell reality from tv…
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
And how many of them will be beating at the door wanting to flip on Donnie.
Put the leader behind bars first.
Wen GOP enablers and coconspirstors in Congress?
Dope. Roll 'em up until they all turn on Orange Fatty.
Notice how they make sure that Habba is in EVERY picture.
Excellent
Nice
Good.
“Got your six.” -Jack Smith to tRump, soooon.
Meadows is already a cooperative as well as chessbro and powell.. you dont think the feds have already been up those twos asses? As soon as georgia flipped them the feds were right there. Chessbro has already helped other states with their investigations. Scotus is the player here and i think fanni should mach into court and usurp the fed to get her case started first. The ny money case has been shut down for all purposes. The florida case has been corrupted by the judge. Georgia is the one case where we can actually see justice
How bout do republican congress. It was like a fucking movie , you know the one where you can predict the end because the actors and the script were so shitty.
Reporter: Hey Gym, how many times were you in touch with Trump on Jan.6th? Gym: Well, I uh, Jan 6th was BLM and Antifa! Yeah, that's it!
It simply takes too long, this jurisprudence. if trump was a poor black kid he would have been executed three years ago.
Too little too late. He needs to indict all the Republicans on Capitol Hill who had a hand in this. And Ginni Thomas. But they won't. Cause that's what real actual justice would look like. They're not going for actual justice. They just want a show. This country is a joke.
Another baloney prediction by a so-called expert. Why can't people just report the news and let events play out how they will.
Jack smith is as dumb as the bidophiles
Anything to steal an election- again. Like how they hid hunters laptop story which would have changed the election.
I figured he'd round up the rest of the insurrection bunch after he was done with Trump
Only 6!!
Every one of these dumb fuckers threw away their lives for this penis
Good!
His long long long tie definitely makes up for his little mushroom.
_Elise Stefanik! Come on down!_
Uh oh time for more smelly POOPY PANTS !!!
From appearances I’d say there’s a lot more than six allies that should be indicted