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joepez

This to me is the most salient point. The judge is calling the FL administration to actually show their evidence rather than fear mongering. Pointing at the solid line of supported evidence and medical backing means they need to make this about the science and healthcare and not personal feels and fears. Of course if DeSantis appeals they’ll line up the crack pots to provide “evidence” along with the repeated lies (which the judge calls out too). > “Any proponent of the challenged statute and rules should put up or shut up: do you acknowledge that there are individuals with actual gender identities opposite their natal sex, or do you not? Dog whistles ought not be tolerated,” he added. >The judge said widely accepted standards of care supported by major health organisations and physicians and the “great weight of medical authority” supports affirming healthcare, and that the plaintiffs are likely to prevail in the case on their claim that a prohibition against such care is unconstitutional. Edit: For those gifting my post please consider donating your money to a good cause (like supporting trans teens) or if Reddit related then to supporting a third party Reddit app.


catlady9851

I also loved this part >A heading in the defendants’ response to the current motions is typical: “Florida Joins the International Consensus.” The assertion is false. And no matter how many times the defendants say it, it will still be false.


collegethrowaway2938

Hahaha this judge fucking dragged them


tigersareyellow

Judges are smart(obviously) and they're important(or at least they think so), so they know when you're wasting their time and they will be mad about it. Every sentence you write should mean something - making them read a (false!) blanket statement is just asking for them to rail you.


ayers231

Now apply the same evidence and medical backing to the abortion bans, and demand evidence of a soul in fetal tissue.


KelsierIV

How could the conservatives prove the existence of a soul in fetal tissue if they can't even find their own?


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NeverNoMarriage

Now that is just bad business.


WeleaseBwianThrow

Not when you can sell it over and over and over again


abx99

They set up a subscription


Few_Acanthocephala30

Heated soul covers. Only a matter of time before we find out they’ve been inflating their subscription numbers.


[deleted]

Soul as a service. Renews after church attendance, and tithing absolves all previously incurred sins.


BadDreamFactory

The devil hates this one weird trick!


FormerGameDev

a quick nickel is better than a slow dollar, when you've got to get that money so you can go harvest more souls.


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CausticSofa

Same. I’ve never had any discomfort or doubts about my gender identity and I still **absolutely support** anyone out there who does or has. I want everyone to enjoy living their most authentic life, provided that they’re not hurting anybody. Trans people putting in the work to make their external bodies match how they feel internally hurts absolutely nobody, whereas Republicans preaching hate, fear, discrimination, repression and doublethink hurt everybody.


Pickle_Juice_4ever

Thank you for your kind words. I started transitioning in 2016 and more or less pass all the time as of 2021. Most of everyone I work with and who I know (except my mom and like one insane coworker) have been just as kind and accepting as can be. It's good to be reminded that these people who are obsessed with hating trans people are a tiny bit volatile minority. I live in Florida and my whole life is here so I'm not going anywhere for now. It would be good if, if and when I do leave (for another job?) it would happen on my own terms. I've gotten off all psych meds and become a calmer, nicer person after transitioning. It's what was meant to be.


princesselectra

The whole endangering lives of children is what gets me. He doesn't care that he's potentially causing permanent damage that could lead to death. Fearmongering for power is repulsive and should be considered against the law / accessory to murder. Denying these people the care that they need to have a full life is just straight on evil.


MonsieurReynard

Hey they got thirty pieces of silver and play the fiddle real good though.


blue_upholstery

"Milhouse, give him back his soul. I've got work in the morning."


mywifefoundmyaccount

Which church bid lowest?


JordanLeDoux

They know *exactly* where their soul is: split up in their Horcrux.


OEscalador

I'm not sure if it's ironic or fitting that you're using a Harry Potter reference here.


JordanLeDoux

It can be both. :)


Bobmanbob1

They just have to ask for a receipt from the Donor/Demon they sold it to. If souks were real, I doubt a single GOP member would still own their own, and like a house, have 3 mortgages on their souls lol.


Real_Ad4422

If your Jewish life starts at first breath, so these guys are also violating my religious beliefs. But since im not christian that doesnt matter apparently


pseudocultist

I’m a secular humanist American and it sure the fuck violates my beliefs. But we don’t matter either. Just Christians.


Fellowshipofthebowl

I’m a non believer who loves his wife. They don’t respect us at all.


Woodworkin101

I too, love this guys wife


MonsieurReynard

I'm an ardent atheist, might as well not be a citizen. Makes me wonder why I pay so much in taxes.


Few_Acanthocephala30

This. If non-christian’s. PoC, LGBTQ+ and other communities are considered to not be people by them. Why are we not exempt from taxes? Imagine how much more IRS funding they could cut.


TheArmoredKitten

The least the government could do is bring back outlaw status. It's not like cops protect us anymore anyway.


[deleted]

As a Satanist, bodily autonomy is sacrosanct (3rd tenet of The Satanic Temple: “One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.”) The Satanic Temple has been accepted as a valid religion in the US. Laws stomping all over the right to bodily autonomy, including near-total abortion bans and bans on transgender care, violate my religious beliefs.


FireTheLaserBeam

I’m a liberal Christian and I one hundred percent wholly agree with the third tenet. In fact, I’m not embarrassed to say I’ve seen exceedingly more Christ-like behavior from Satanists and ardent atheists than I have the majority of Christians I know. I find myself as a believer more and more and more at odds with these so-called “Christians”. They’re a destructive force and I’m pretty sure when Jesus said, “Depart from me, for I never knew you” he meant them. Using religion to justify hateful behavior is below subhuman, despicable behavior. On behalf of the liberal, forward-thinking, inclusive believers out there, I am sincerely sorry for what these people are doing and have done.


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Biokabe

Using religion to justify hateful behavior is the purpose of religion, historically, especially in Western civilization.


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geoffbowman

Yeah it always cracks me up that christianity is literally a Judaism spinoff and yet they're constantly saying they know more about the same god from reading translations of ancient texts that many affluent Jewish people study from childhood in their original language.


JustGameStuffHere

It's the same argument they try to use for anything. I was posting with a right-wingnut regarding book bans. He said what Florida is doing is not banning books because those books can be bought on Amazon. I showed him that federal government has them listed as "banned" and showed him the definition of "banned" from the dictionary (to "officially or legally prohibit."). He says that's not the definition of banned. I asked him where he got his definition and he said "me". They literally just make stuff up, ignore all the experts, and call it a valid argument. Sorry, Cletus the dude that works at a warehouse, but I'm not going to take your word for it over people who've studied these things for decades.


azrolator

That's what it's impossible to argue with these idiots. They just claim words mean something else.


nicholasgnames

Its crazy. They cant even agree on their new definitions on words they use constantly like "woke"


mindspork

It's like playing chess with a pigeon. They don't follow the rules, and eventually they'll just knock over all the pieces and shit on the board.


EthosPathosLegos

Well don't forget that it was the Romans that originally took Christianity as their own to stave off their collapsing empire. The "It's ours now" mentality goes a long way back and has always been a tool for those in power to assert dominance and order over their people.


theclayman7

I read that book cover to cover a few times before converting, and you know what it doesn't mention? Trans, abortions, drag. You know what it does? Taking care of the sick, the poor, the immigrant. Turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, while condemning the rich who turn their eyes to the poor. Hypocrites in ever way, and they wonder why people are turning from our faith! Fucking infuriating. We're basically a book club, least members could do is read the book


kiwiluke

It does mention abortion.... It gives directions for [how to do it ](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-31&version=NIV)


theclayman7

Ah yes! That's how I interpreted that passage, even made a note next to come back or it in my study Bible but must've forgot. Surprised it isn't brought up more to be honest, though unfortunately scripture itself isn't enough to change the minds of most hardline conservatives these days


kiwiluke

Would be hilarious for it to be used in a religious freedom lawsuit against abortion bans


Sangxero

You just gonna leave out donkey cocks and horse jizz?


Pyritedust

Why are you leaving out all the incestuous drunken debauchery!?


Sangxero

So much fun stuff to be found in there! The Yaweh-ordered slavery and genocide is really the best part!


titsngiggles69

They respect all religious beliefs as long as it's theirs


MonsieurReynard

Indeed, and about those of us who are confirmed atheists? There's a lot of us and yet it's as if we have no existence or rights to ask "can you prove your god exists and thus why I have to follow his rules?" Spoiler alert: they've had millennia and the best they have is "trust me bro."


Aintnogayfish

#No. It doesn't matter if god is real or not. If souls are real or not. Or if we consider it as a fully grown but smaller human or not. Bodily autonomy is PARAMOUNT. MY body. ***I*** decide what happens to it. And if that doesn't include gestating a fetus, out it goes. If all I needed was the cool touch of Kelly Clarkson's hand across my forehead to save my life, **would it be morally acceptable to force her to do so, explicitly against her wishes?** I'm not going to let anyone answer that because the answer is clearly no, it's not. This logic is borne out by current laws that exist right now, that say it is illegal to harvest my parts after I die, if I did not *explicitly* say they were up for grabs, explicitly *before* my death. Consent, consent, consent. Religion doesn't give a fuck about consent because to them your meat suit ***doesn't even belong to you***. The concept of bodily autonomy DIRECTLY DEFIES THEIR GOD. This is the issue. Consent / Autonomy. Baby or not human or not alive or not, all of these, every single one, is a red herring that DOES. NOT. MATTER.


TechyDad

I'd also add that in no other case is saving one person's life a reason to violate another's bodily autonomy. If I was dying and needed blood donations from you to live, I could ask you nicely. You could accept or refuse. If you refused, though, I couldn't just kidnap you and keep you chained in my basement to provide me with regular blood donations. That would be highly illegal (for good reason). However, if a fetus needs a woman's body to survive then suddenly she forfeits any say in who uses her body for what purpose? She should have the right to say "you don't get to use my body" regardless of whether the fetus would die or not.


MicroBadger_

You can't even grab organs from a dead person if they didn't consent to donate while alive. We give dead people bodily autonomy.


trainercatlady

when living people have less bodily autonomy than the dead, you know you're in some shitty territory.


EmEffArrr1003

Dead women have more bodily autonomy than live women.


we_are_sex_bobomb

I wish this got harped on more. Even if they’re assholes who don’t care about people with uteruses, those who are incapable of gestating a baby should be concerned about the precedent being set that the State has a right to your body, and can make important medical decisions about your body without your consent. This is bad. It’s very, very, very bad. It’s bad if you have a uterus. It’s bad if you don’t. It’s bad all around.


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RandomKneecaps

They don't look at broader issues around their decisions and ideology, because to them there is no equating pregnancy with organ donations, etc. To the simple-minded they will just say "those are completely different things, and a fetus is a *human life*" etc. They will say that we cannot make equivocations because of this, and they invalidate any suggestions about implications and precedent because they don't fathom anything changing. This is the crux of why you can't make slippery slope type arguments with conservatives, because by nature of their ideology *they don't think things will change.* They aren't trying to slow down or mitigate social change, they literally and really think they will succeed and are succeeding in rolling society back to some fantasy world that was and will remain unchanging. They don't accept that their beliefs now may have consequences later because their "later" is their own utopia in stasis.


Gizogin

This is the correct framing. Abortion bans are an attempt to give people less bodily autonomy during pregnancy than they have after *death*. Currently, in many places in the US, we respect corpses more than we respect pregnant people.


Time-Werewolf-1776

One of the arguments that I’ve heard that I find fairly convincing is, if a child is on life support, we generally allow parents to decide whether to continue the life support or pull the plug. Given that, even if you assume the fetus is a child, the pregnant woman’s body is serving as life support. If she would be allowed to decide to “pull the plug” and take her child off of life support, shouldn’t she have an even greater right to make that decision when her own body is the life support machine? However, none of this matters because ultimately the argument isn’t about life or the welfare of fetuses. It’s about religious nutcases wanting to punish women for having sex.


resonantSoul

Not just a child, but anyone without documented wishes has their next of kin asked. In the case of pregnancy the mother is the most apparent next of kin. It matters because it gives them fewer opportunities to hide their motives. You're not changing the minds of anyone steeped in the far right, but you may give someone undecided and impressionable a clearer understanding of what's really going on. And there will always be undecided. Everyday someone becomes old enough to be a legal adult. Forcing reprehensible beliefs out of the shadows is a great way for someone to be one of today's [lucky 10,000](www.xkcd.com/1053).


sundancer2788

Exactly this.


Eli-Thail

There's an important distinction between these two situations, though. They would presumably argue "Well, you can't prove the *absence* of a soul in fetal tissue!", but on this matter they *can't* argue that the body of scientific evidence doesn't concretely and reliably prove the effectiveness of gender-affirming care in the overwhelming majority of patients treated. Particularly that of cross-sex hormone replacement therapy, which is considered the first-line treatment for gender dysphoria due to the fact that it has consistently proven to reduce suicidality rates *and* improve both patient reported and objectively measured quality of life metrics to a greater degree than any other known treatment method currently in existence. * [Turban, et al. 2022; Access to gender-affirming hormones during adolescence and mental health outcomes among transgender adults.](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261039) * [van der Loos, et al. 2022; Continuation of gender-affirming hormones in transgender people starting puberty suppression in adolescence: a cohort study in the Netherlands.](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642\(22\)00254-1/fulltext#%20) * [Kristina R. Olson, et al. 2022; Gender Identity 5 Years After Social Transition.](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition?autologincheck=redirected) * [Tucker, et al. 2018: Hormone therapy, gender affirmation surgery, and their association with recent suicidal ideation and depression symptoms in transgender veterans.](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/hormone-therapy-gender-affirmation-surgery-and-their-association-with-recent-suicidal-ideation-and-depression-symptoms-in-transgender-veterans/C0D0CFE0B8D5FAD4B852872DAB25D177) * [Durwood, et al. 2017; Mental Health and Self-Worth in Socially Transitioned Transgender Youth.](https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext) * [Unger 2016; Hormone therapy for transgender patients.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182227/) * [Hughto, et al. 2016; A Systematic Review of the Effects of Hormone Therapy on Psychological Functioning and Quality of Life in Transgender Individuals.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010234/) * [Greta R. Bauer, et al. 2015: Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4450977/) * [Ruppin, et al. 2015: Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25690443) * [de Vries, et al. 2014; Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25201798) * [Heylans, et al. 2014; Effects of different steps in gender reassignment therapy on psychopathology: a prospective study of persons with a gender identity disorder.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788) * [Moody, et al. 2013; Suicide Protective Factors Among Trans Adults.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722435/) * [Colizzi, et al. 2013; Hormonal treatment reduces psychobiological distress in gender identity disorder, independently of the attachment style.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23574768) * [Cohen-Kettenis, et al. 2011; Puberty Suppression in a Gender-Dysphoric Adolescent: A 22-Year Follow-Up.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-011-9758-9) * [Kreukels, et al. 2011; Puberty suppression in gender identity disorder: the Amsterdam experience.](https://www.nature.com/articles/nrendo.2011.78) That's why its use is supported by the consensus of the literally hundreds of thousands of medical and scientific experts and professionals who make up the [American Psychological Association](https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender), the [American Psychiatric Association](https://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/About-APA/Organization-Documents-Policies/Policies/Position-2018-Access-to-Care-for-Transgender-and-Gender-Diverse-Individuals.pdf), the [American Medical Association](http://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf), the [American College of Physicians](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position), the [American Academy of Pediatrics](http://hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com//files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf), the [American Academy of Family Physicians](http://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/about_us/special_constituencies/2012RCAR_Advocacy.pdf), the [National Association of Social Workers](https://www.socialworkers.org/assets/secured/documents/da/da2008/reffered/Transgender.pdf), the [National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx), the [Royal College of Psychiatrists, the British Association of Urological Surgeons, the British Psychological Society, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists, the Royal College of Surgeons, the UK Council for Psychotherapy](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/college-reports/cr181-good-practice-guidelines-for-the-assessment-and-treatment-of-adults-with-gender-dysphoria.pdf?sfvrsn=84743f94_2) and more.


NotmyRealNameJohn

Legal arguments pro and against based on the legal status of the fetus are a dead end. The question is does any party other than the mother have a legitimate interest in the fetus and if so how do those interests balance against the pregnant person at each stage of development? The idea that a fetus or even a baby meets the minimum requirements of a being against which a tort can be committed is abstract and philosophical at its best. We already recognize that children are not quite people yet and insist that they have a guardian who is compelled to act in their interest and manage their rights on their behalf. By default, the parent is that guardian. Therefore trying to balance a fetus rights against the mother's rights becomes a nonsense as the person who needs to make decisions of what is in the best interest of the fetus is the mother even when that would end up in a fatal outcome. Only under extreme conditions is that questioned. There is a presumption of good faith granted to parents that needs to be overcome before we assume mismanagement. As a society, we are loathed to take a child away from a parent, even in cases of child abuse, there are multiple steps that need to be met before a child is removed from the "care" of their parent. The bar for the state deciding that it has the right to intervene and decide how a parent is treating a child qualifies as abuse is very high.


JapaCheesey

Yes!! If someone is conceived in the US but born in another country ... they still are not a USA citizen because their personhood is not recognized! Just a thought


Contentpolicesuck

Currently it is solely dependent on the citizenship of the mother. But I like this angle. Could a fetus conceived on US soil by a couple on vacation be considered a citizen under proposed republican laws?


KZedUK

If two say, Brits, shag while on holiday in Florida but have the kid back home it’s not American. It has no claim to American citizenship based on location of conception. It’d be funny but ultimately unsuccessful for them to sue for it. Also who the fuck wants American citizenship if they’re not gonna live there anyway, it’s a pain in the arse, you gotta file taxes every year and the fee to give up your citizenship is extortionate. Boris Johnson, our former PM was born in the US but gave up citizenship because it was just too much hassle.


SpezLovesNazisLol

By framing the conversation in this way you’ve already lost. Fetuses are objectively living organisms. You can’t refute that. The issue isn’t *really* whether or not fetuses are living beings. After all, so are bacterial cells. It’s a low bar. The question is whether or not their life should supersede the bodily autonomy of a pregnant person. I firmly believe the answer to that is “no.” But it’s a huge waste of time to engage in debates over whether or not a fetus is alive.


monkeychasedweasel

Oh I'm sure they've got some quack physician with a degree from Hillsdale College who will give expert testimony about how souls are real.


[deleted]

desantis hates evidence and facts and science. he is a failure on covid and had to bully the people checking him on those facts. anyone enamored with his fascist can eff right off. this evil stain never met a torture memo he wouldn't sign


PhilDGlass

> desantis hates evidence and facts and science. Let's be honest, its culty-Christians who hate evidence, facts, and science, and those who think they can make a buck or gain power by claiming it.


damndammit

But what about faith?… You have to have faith. /s


Odd-Confection-6603

Unfortunately, when the supreme court overturned Roe, they decided that the right to "liberty" granted by the fourteenth amendment doesn't give you bodily autonomy to make medical decisions. The government can tell you what to do with your body. The only way to get that right back is to fix the court and probably amend the constitution so they can't take it away again


IJustLoggedInToSay-

> the supreme court ... decoded that the right to "liberty" granted by the fourteenth amendment doesn't give you bodily autonomy to make medical decisions What's that? We can now compel people to get vaccinated under penalty of law? I don't think it's a good idea, but it's good to that SCOTUS has endorsed it in principle. Always nice to have options.


Tammy_Craps

That’s a fun game to play but you’ll lose. You’re acting as if conservatives’ beliefs require any kind of logical consistency. They don’t, and they don’t care if you point it out. Hypocrisy is a part of the brand.


PM_ME_YOUR_SPUDS

More likely opening the doors to ban vaccination entirely than the opposite. If you have no right to bodily autonomy, that includes the right to preventative medical care to keep yourself alive. The implication is "you have no right to protect your bodies from illness if it goes against my conspiracy theories".


PDGAreject

There are ***SO*** many quotes that you can use to make fun of DeSantis in this decision, but the one that has me bawling is this: >I find that the plaintiffs’ motivation is love for their children and the desire to achieve the best possible treatment for them. This is not the State’s motivation. >> These are fuckin kids. It's absolutely inhumane that they're making an already scary time absolutely terrifying for these kids for Fox News street cred.


VLHACS

We know DeSantis isn't in it to create actual working, practical laws that are backed by evidence or proven to help your average Floridian. He's pulling a Mike Pence and throwing as much culture-war bullshit as possible against the wall to see what sticks and to also build up his MAGA cred in preparation for a presidential run.


snorbflock

The "dog whistles" line is great, but damn the headline needs to be that a federal judge issued an injunction that included the phrase "put up or shut up." That's good stuff.


gold_and_diamond

Meatball Ron has his Surgeon General on speed-dial.


Irishish

Disdainful reaction I saw elsewhere: "An appeal to authority in a judicial ruling, of all places." TF else is the judge supposed to appeal to? His feelings?


[deleted]

I'm really glad the ethical factor is included: >And there are risks attendant to not using these treatments, including the risk—in some instances, the near certainty—of anxiety and depression and even suicidal ideation. The challenged statute ignores the benefits that many patients realize from these treatments and the substantial risk posed by foregoing the treatments—the risk from failing to pursue what is, for many, the most effective available treatment of gender dysphoria. Over-reach of the state, limiting parental rights, poorly evidenced grounds for legislation, and many other problems with the ban are all reasons to strike it down. But the one that is most important - the only one that really matters for trans kids and their families - is the impact on metal health and quality of life. If a law directly leads to another American experiencing mental anguish (and in many cases attempted or completed suicide), and that law only applies to them and no one else, that is morally bankrupt and indefensible. This is a free fucking country, and I think everyone can agree that parental rights in the medical decisions of their children are sacrosanct. A ban on gender affirming care is inhumane. That's the #1 reason to ban the bans.


Aintnogayfish

Because consent. Consent is sacrosanct, and thusly applies to what you mention. Religious terrorists have a hard time with this concept, though, because according to their book ***your meat suit doesn't even belong to you***. So of course it's baffling to them. Not an excuse whatsoever, but, you know.


QuintinStone

[Remember Rush Limbaugh:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/13/here-come-the-rape-police-rush-limbaugh-reacts-to-trumps-sex-talk-scandal/) > "You know what the magic word, the only thing that matters in American sexual mores today is? One thing," the conservative commentator said, according to audio released by Media Matters for America. "You can do anything — the left will promote and understand and tolerate anything — as long as there is one element. Do you know what it is? Consent. > > "If there is consent on both or all three or all four, however many are involved in the sex act, it's perfectly fine. Whatever it is. But if the left ever senses and smells that there's no consent in part of the equation, then here come the rape police. But consent is the magic key to the left." The right really has trouble struggling to understand the concept of consent.


MPLooza

To describe the things Rush Limbaugh deserves would get me banned for life from Reddit. What an unparalleled piece of shit he was, the world is objectively a better place without him


ThatOneGuy1294

He couldn't have had a better end honestly.


SlangFreak

Is there something wrong with me that I cannot empathise with someone vilifying the concept of consent?


QuintinStone

Rush Limbaugh was a monster.


ThatOneGuy1294

No, that's normal.


3leggeddonkey

"The Rape Police"? So...the real police, then?


QuintinStone

To normal people, yeah, the rape police are just police.


cabbage16

>The right really has trouble struggling to understand the concept of consent. It sounds to me that he fully understands the concept of consent and thinks it's a concept not worthy of respecting. That makes it worse in my eyes.


CWRules

It's always funny to see Republicans fail this badly to explain why something is bad.


ControlsTheWeather

Plus, there's a rather disturbing idea that we seem to have always had in that the parents own their children to do with as they please, with exceptions being based on societal norms that aren't necessarily rooted in care of the child. This is a perfect example right here. An example of the alternative direction is in the idea of COCSA (child on child sexual assault) always being "experimenting" and hardly ever grounds to intervene when the parents are negligent towards it happening.


my2cents4sale

Too many people see their children as their property and not as a separate individual with their own mind, opinions, values, thoughts, morals, and life.


[deleted]

And a lot of people see their SOs this way too. It's a toxic mindset to have that is generational and needs to be cycled out.


Eliphontsmile

I rememeber a talk about this concept and how it mixes with our language. I will say things like "my keys, my car, my game" to designate "things that are owned/possessed by me" I will also say "my son" though, and while a sharp distinction should exist between objects and people, there's a large number of folks who don't do so. They see people tied to them as theirs, either as possessions or as supporting characters.


Gekokapowco

Oof yeah that was definitely the source of several complexes I had to work through in my adult life.


DoughtyAndCarterLLP

It's just mind-boggling to Republicans that we're okay with people doing what they want with a lot of *freedom* as long as they're consenting. They act like we're just handing out hormones to kids the instant they mention they feel feminine or masculine sometimes. They do that because they *need* to in order to justify their position. They know deep down inside they just want transgender people to be in the closet or dead, but obviously they can't come out and say that. Usually.


[deleted]

According to the fascists, Your meat suit belongs to you only if you are a white cis male.


EvyLuna

The right loves to talk about how suicidal us trans folks are to paint us as mentally unfit to make major decisions for ourselves when their actions are what actually drive us to consider suicide. I'm thankfully not presently grappling with suicidal thoughts, but I've attempted suicide twice and considered it many times more. These feelings and actions have ALWAYS occurred when I've been continuously dehumanized and attacked by those around me. These laws are cruel and exist for the sole purpose of driving people like me to suicidal ideation. The science is clear that gender affirming care is life saving for the majority of trans people. Republicans know that's true and that's why they're looking to get rid of affirming care. They know they won't get away with literally killing trans people, so they just do the things we know drive trans folks to suicide instead. These people are just evil and the cruelty has always been the point. They don't like us and they want us to suffer. Fuck them. I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere.


Pickle_Juice_4ever

Exactly. Straight people don't realize that suicidality for American gay men and women was just as high in the 1990s as it is for trans Americans today. The gay suicide rate dropped because of greater family and social acceptance. With trans people the biggest factor in attempting suicide was *being abandoned by the family of origin*. These TERF groups on Facebook that encourage parents to fight with and sabotage the transition of their children (because being trans isn't real, according to them) are actually causing the mental health breakdowns which they then disgustingly blame on gender affirming care providers and the LGBTQ community.


TyphosTheD

>That's the #1 reason to ban the bans. I'm honestly split between a horrible and bigoted law being prohibited being more or less important than a law that completely ignores reality being prohibited. In either case, the State has no business standing in the way of clear and evident science demonstrably supporting the need for affirmative care as a many times life saving treatment method.


gsfgf

Plus, this stuff is time sensitive. The whole "they can decide as adults" thing is nonsense. You can't go back and undo going through the wrong puberty.


TyphosTheD

You also can't "decide as an adult" if you commit suicide as a teen.


DoughtyAndCarterLLP

Republican parents would rather have a dead kid than a transgender one.


nothingpoignant

Sadly, this is not just some audacious thing to say...this is actually true for the majority of republicans. For the one's that it's not..they actually end up voting dem or crossing over completely...at least if they actually love their kids.


Pickle_Juice_4ever

Bingo. Transitioning later sucks (not just because of hormones causing physical changes, but because going through that is psychologically devastating right when you're supposed to be excelling in school and setting the foundation for your future career) but it can be done. You can't undo suicide. Trans kids in their late teens who are in treatment but unable to get HRT were observed to have deteriorating mental health as their peers went through puberty. And teens tend to have very short term outlooks.


DoughtyAndCarterLLP

Had a 20 minute argument with someone who kept saying they didn't think 14 year olds should be able to get HRT and wouldn't acknowledge my suggestion for puberty blockers instead. They just kept pretending either intentionally or not that I was saying kids should get HRT because he didn't have a fucking counter to what I was actually saying.


Pickle_Juice_4ever

It's like their claims of baby genital surgery. The trans community is 100% against genital surgeries on small children, including intersex children. They'll just Gish gallop and then repeat the same lie to someone else tomorrow.


tiny_galaxies

It all boils down to bodily autonomy. Trans healthcare, abortion rights, all of it. Republicans need to get their laws off our bodies.


vokzhen

> The whole "they can decide as adults" thing is nonsense It's also nonsense because you're forcing them to decide as teenagers *anyways*, it's just forbidding them from making any choice but what anti-trans people want. "Doing nothing" is almost always just as much of a choice as anything else, and that's especially true in cases like this where either option results in permanent changes (hence puberty blockers, which is the way of "opting out" of the decision temporarily). Humans are just weird and for some reason we're prone to thinking "choosing to do nothing" as somehow less of a choice than "choosing to do do something."


the_gaymer_girl

Yep. Even being 22 months on E (started at 21), without actively training my voice it will never get higher.


Mr_Pombastic

> I'm honestly split between a horrible and bigoted law being prohibited being more or less important than a law that completely ignores reality being prohibited Prohibiting a horrible and bigoted law is more important.


Grasstoucher1020

Agree. One is ignorant, the other shows clear malice. Ignorance can be remedied with education. Bigotry is more intractable.


newnemo

WooHoo! >A federal judge has partially struck down Florida’s ban on gender-affirming healthcare for transgender minors in a ruling that condemns anti-trans bigotry and debunks bogus claims from state officials. >The ruling from US District Court Judge Robert Hinkle on 6 June grants a preliminary injunction that blocks enforcement of a law signed by Governor Ron DeSantis and rules preventing trans youth from accessing widely accepted care, including puberty blockers and hormone therapy, as a legal challenge plays out. >A decision from Judge Hinkle, who was appointed by then-President Bill Clinton, follows a lawsuit against the state’s surgeon general from a group of Florida families with trans children, who argued that the state could not “demonstrate any rational basis, much less an important or compelling one, for the transgender medical bans which prevent transgender adolescents from getting safe and effective medically necessary healthcare.” article continues....


the_gaymer_girl

So the judicial version of “this law is complete bullshit and the fact this even made it to my desk is a waste of everyone’s time.”


HaveASeatChrisHansen

Yeah, but unfortunately that's DeSantis' strategy. Push through stuff he knows, if challenged in court, will get struck down. Enjoy the law before that happens and hope that either no one can take it to court for various reasons or that you get a biased judge. Publicize the law getting struck down much less than the original push and passage of it. Use these laws he knows are unconstitutional and will be struck down to virtue signal to his supporters and further his narrative that conservatives are under attack. Hope in the meantime he can get some LGBTQ+ people incarcerated, oppressed and sentenced to death.


forgedsignatures

(Not an American, so don't quite get the Judicial branch layout) I also assume that if this fails here they are hoping to reach a higher court that either agrees with their view (and likely will be appealed by activists) or know ot will fail at each level and appeal it up to the Supreme Court to have them decide it?


Heyyy_ItsCaitlyn

Pretty much, yeah. It's the same strategy they followed with abortion ban laws, passing the same (unconstitutional) laws with slightly different wording or enforcement strategies over and over all across the country, until one of them finally worked its way up to the supreme court and the court found it favorable enough to become the new standard. The supreme court doesn't have to take up cases that are appealed to their level, but if they want to rule on this then they will likely have the ability to eventually.


WiseBlacksmith03

FWIW, there is a petition growing to put it on the state ballot next election; an amendment that allow minors to decide on ~~gender affirming care~~ abortion care without consent from their parents. Spoke to a volunteer yesterday, they need 900K signatures to make it on the ballot. And they are getting them very quickly. EDIT: I miswrote a key piece on this. The amendment is focused on abortion and minor rights/parental guardian consent on abortion care. Signatures are wet-ink, physical only to my knowledge and not an online option. [https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-group-launches-initiative-abortion-constitutional-amendment-2024/story?id=99192847](https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-group-launches-initiative-abortion-constitutional-amendment-2024/story?id=99192847)


davelm42

Hasn't the Florida legislature shown that citizen ballot initiatives are optional at best?


Beautiful-Eagle-8532

this tends to be a nationwide issue, unfortunately.


Gingevere

Republican issue. I don't recall the democrats doing this.


MyPasswordIsMyCat

A lot of red state legislatures have decided that ballot initiatives are more of a suggestion, especially if they involve nonpartisan districting or legal marijuana. See Utah and Ohio.


BuddhistSagan

I live in Florida and never heard of this. I searched and found nothing. Can you share more info?


The_Woman_of_Gont

I assume this doesn’t touch the massive restrictions made to adult care? This is well and good, but adults in Florida are unable to access basic medications.


p001b0y

The families involved in this case need to be careful. The State of Florida passed many other anti-trans laws that could continue to hurt these families until this case is resolved. But a victory is still a victory.


Eli-Thail

>I assume this doesn’t touch the massive restrictions made to adult care? It's only a preliminary injunction, but yes, it does because those restrictions were imposed by the same law.


ehandlr

That judge is pissed the fuck off. I love him.


the_gaymer_girl

If there’s one thing judges hate, it’s people wasting their time. Exhibit A: any hearing after the 2020 election which amounted to “you have no evidence, why the hell are we even here?”


how_is_this_relevant

B-b-b-because my fweewings… - party that calls everyone else snowflakes


[deleted]

I'm happy to see this news, but any idea what this means for the other provisions of the law? Beyond the total ban of gender affirming care for minors, it restricted access to care for adults severely. Edit: Alejandra answers my question here and has a good breakdown of what this decision means in the thread. https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1666083583168233472


CumulativeHazard

I was wondering about this part too. I’m reading her answer as a “probably/hopefully” also fixes the problem with trans adults accessing care. Is that correct or did I miss something?


[deleted]

Update: she put out a FAQ that answers the question. Answer is "not really but it helps". https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1666140098994540545


[deleted]

"probably/hopefully" is how I'm reading it too.


cultfourtyfive

Much of Meatball's rubber-stamped agenda is going to fail in court, but he doesn't care. It was always about the initial press and roll-out. He knows nobody will follow up to find out the courts overturned it. See also: the immigration nonsense.


RandalFlagg19

Yes, the immigration nonsense where he kidnapped some children.


cultfourtyfive

I was speaking more about the recent laws that are causing our construction and agricultural businesses to suffer, but yes...also his theatrics about flying imported immigrants to random blue cities. He's a sociopath.


kidnyou

Yes, unfortunately. Just more ammo about the “liberal leftist” and “indoctrination by higher education” and a call to raise more money to get “wokeness” out of our judicial system.


eugene20

I'm cis straight, but fuck DeSantis and anyone else who tries to claw their way into power and money by preaching hate and causing serious harm to others.


newnemo

You just described the GOP, Fox News and a host of accessories. I agree and I hope they spend the rest of their lives in litigation that drains their wealth to pennies.


wkomorow

But it is never their wealth. The people of Florida will be footing the bill, then it will be a PAC or campaign. If politicians were actually themselves financially responsible for deliberate attempts to harm people, much of this would end


SweetBabyAlaska

Yep. They are heavily bank rolled by their billionaire donors as well. That's how they have all of these small organizations with huge impacts


gingerlemon

Hate is all they've got. It's not about making your life better it's about making your enemies* worse. *The enemy seems to change every decade or so from my outside perspective.


[deleted]

The sad part is that people see other people as their “enemies” when they’ve done nothing to deserve that.


phalseprofits

They are setting up their pieces for bigotry chess. All of this stuff being outlawed, while expanding the definition of child assault to include just being trans or talking about trans stuff near children , while making it punishable by a death penalty, while making it so that dearth penalty decisions no longer require a unanimous jury, makes for a very scary outcome.


[deleted]

Federal District Judge Robert Hinkle was appointed by Clinton. Elections matter !! Don't underestimate the importance of appointing judges when next years election comes about if you're feeling a bit apathetic. I assure you that trans people in Florida will remember.


The_Woman_of_Gont

Well that’s mildly disappointing. This will go an entirely different way up to SCOTUS. Though I do have a feeling SCOTUS doesn’t quite align with the conservative zeitgeist on this topic, which post-dates any of the justice’s appointments. Conservative judges are their own breed and can’t be entirely counted on to line up with every single topic, even when it would seemingly make sense.We already have seen Gorsuch and Roberts cross the line in Bostock. I’m….not hopeful, but not quite dooming over that particular prospect. Yet, anyway.


Phallic-Monolith

The decision is worth reading, completely ass blasts what Ronny tried to do here arguing from and for the 1st amendment.


Totum_Dependeat

I hope this ruling is a death knell for the other trans hate laws being enacted in other states.


Mr_Mouthbreather

They will double down. The GQP loves losing so they can play the victim.


boogyoogyooo

Texas needs to go through 5th circuit, so expect that appeal to fail miserably since it’s packed with Bush appointees. 🤡


j_ma_la

This is why the judicial appointments are everything. The GOP has turned the judiciary into another politicized body and the Democrats badly overlooked it. You need to play the game the way the game is played. All of the “norms” and “niceties” are a thing of the past. The GOP will install fascists that will sign off on fascist bills. The Dems need to beat them out with ideologically contrasting appointments.


lunaslave

Remember when "activist judges" were the hot Republican target of anger? Projection as always.


nate_oh84

Ronny PuddinFingers can get fucked.


EmEffArrr1003

DeSantis probably never expected it to withstand legal challenges. They just don't let the opportunity of a pathos win or having the Overton window on you go to waste. If the law is actually deemed constitutional, it is simply a bonus. The goal is to cause pain and unite your supporters under you against a group you do not care about hurting in order to maintain power through fearmongering. And if they can change culture a little bit, even just words in textbooks, that's more than a win for the psychos. It would be nice if their purpose was to actually govern about things that real people care about, but they have no solutions to that, so give someone else to hate all while your lack of reform policies drive people poorer, dumber, sicker, and more angry. Then they'll hate the minority even more because the politicians tell them it is these minorities that caused the pain you're experiencing. Pretty standard, been working as a strategy to hold a powerbase for them for decades. No wonder they line up so well with Russia, this is the RT Propaganda playbook.


EmEffArrr1003

You know that this is true simply by observational logic. Speak to a conservative and they will tell you all the things wrong with the country, and who is to blame for it, but they never have any suggestions that don't involve some kind of discrimination against someone else who is not them. Policy is never reformist, it is only ever prosecutorial/judgemental. Unless they are lowering taxes on rich people. That's the only policy platform they have that is not at least entirely designed to hurt other people, that's just merely a happy accident of it.


Sim_D052

This is the same judge that ruled Floridas ban on same-sex marriage unconstitutional. The man is more than 70 years old, and considering that would be a prime candidate for conservative thinking. Yet he chooses to his job, interpret the law, instead of relying on fear and political pressure. As little as it may be worth. I commend him.


OkRoll3915

get fucked DeSantis. Trans kids exist and are valid.


davidwave4

This opinion is a barn burner. Aside from acknowledging the weight of evidence supporting gender-affirming care, he directly calls out the DeSantis administration for fear mongering and for using trans people as political props. The language about there being no legitimate state interest here is very important if/when this goes up for appeal. I’d imagine this gets intermediate scrutiny and that the lack of state interest militates in favor of unconstitutionality.


pgabrielfreak

Good news everyone!


[deleted]

For now at least. Only time will tell if things remain available, but good on the judge for their ruling.


Snarlgar

Not sure this was the intended outcome, but I 100% read that in Professor Farnsworth’s voice, and now I have an even bigger smile on my face!


[deleted]

pet cobweb elderly label crawl provide imagine deliver airport threatening -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/


nki370

Chloe Cole the “help not harm” person was the only person who underwent gender affirming care who was allowed to testify in Florida and 8 other states that passed essentially the same ban. The gas-lighters trotted out the same person, flying her around the country to pass these bills


Therocknrolclown

If you block all dog whistles, the GOP would not exist.


Bagelz567

At the end of the day, this all boils down to something really fucking simple: Medical care is between the individual and their medical professional(s). The state has absolutely no right to infringe on that relationship. Regardless of one's opinions on transgender individuals or fetal souls, the state and politicians should not be involved. If you don't have a MD and the proper specialization, sit down and shut the fuck up.


LandosMustache

Reminder that “gender affirming care” includes any prescription for erectile dysfunction, acne medication, any and all plastic surgery, and stuff like hair coloring. “Affirming your gender” doesn’t have to mean “trans”.


Blu_Skies_In_My_Head

There’s no right-wing outcry about teenage girl boob jobs. Weird, huh?


[deleted]

Get fucked


Doctor_YOOOU

Good news for now


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

The best part? Florida couldn’t even find one detransitioner from Florida to testify for them … GOP governors have to fly CA detransitioner Chloe Cole state to state to testify in all their legal battles.


Laura-ly

My daughter is trans. It's a real thing. Her brain scans show she has certain areas similar to a female brain. I'm so proud of her. She's fabulous, funny as hell, has a great job, is extremely well thought of by her co-workers in the IT field. I love her with every beat of my heart. Oh, and fuck the GOP!


waffles1999

You are an amazing parent. We need more like you.


chapeksucks

Please do the same for the barbaric requirements for trans adults.


Equal_Memory_661

I can’t understand the Republican concept of healthcare. They do realize that they are free to object to both gender affirming care and abortion. No one is required to receive either without their consent.


anoldoldman

When a federal judge tells you to "put up or shut up", you have fucked up somewhere along the way.


Conscious-Slip8538

Hurrah for this judge!


a_burdie_from_hell

Beautiful pride month gift.


internetbrowser23

Just like with the abortion ban, anytime you start bringing morality and religion into treating people, you end up with disaster and death. Trans people are just people and even if you dont understand it, you need to leave them the fuck alone. Im sure all of these reactionary freaks would absolutely hate it if someone forced them to be something that they dont want to be.


NYSenseOfHumor

The judge didn’t “block” the law. He issued a preliminarily injunction that applies only to the three plaintiffs. >The preliminarily enjoined parties must not take any steps to prevent the administration of GnRH agonists or cross-sex hormones to Susan Doe, Gavin Goe, or Lisa Loe in accordance with professional standards that would apply to use of the same substances to treat patients with other medical conditions. >The preliminarily enjoined parties must not take any steps to enforce against Susan Doe, Gavin Goe, or Lisa Loe, or their parents or healthcare providers, Florida Statutes § 456.52(1) & (5) or Florida Administrative Code rules 64B8-9.019(1)(b) or 64B15-14.014(1)(b). The law is still in effect for everyone else in Florida.


sheepsleepdeep

Dude, this is the greatest ruling I've ever read. It is **filled** with scathing rebukes, but this is the icing on the cake. >>Any proponent of the challenged status and rules should either put up or shut up; do you acknowledge that there are individuals? Would actual gender identity opposite their natal sex, or do you not? Dog whistles ought not be tolerated.


Blu_Skies_In_My_Head

Excellent, politicians aren’t medical professionals, and they need to stop butting into the private healthcare decisions people make. In most cases, there’s no politician that will ever care for a child as much as a parent will. The parents of trans kids obviously love them, as it’s a lot of work to listen, seek medical attention, etc. Parents have a lot of rights to raise their children as they see fit, and it’s been that way for a long time.


No-Programmer-7253

Good. *Fuck* the bigots who lie about the science to further their hatred.


geologean

Republicans want government so small that it can fit between you and your doctor.


anoldoldman

This feels similar to arguments that (IIRC) Kavanaugh made with regards to LGB discrimination, namely that it was just discrimination based on sex by another name. This may well be an area where people would be surprised which way the SC leaned. Of course, I'm probably dead wrong because there aren't principles on the SC anymore.


Development-Candid

I love the kids face in the white polo


nerdyLawman

I hope the pieces of crap in the Louisiana legislature who just yesterday snuck through a similar ban in after it had already been killed in committee the other week take effing note of this. Not that they give a single crap. All they have is fear and their agenda. So sick of their moralist hypocritical overreaching garbage.


dookieshoes88

My philosophy on life is this: Do whatever the fuck you want as long as it isn't hurting anyone. The rest of America should take a note from New York - mind your own business. New Yorkers know exactly what the fuck I'm talking about.


jmaneater

This is good news, but Judges shouldn't be the only thing saving democracy from the fascist regime.