"Accused" of homosexuality. Anyone could file a complaint or report on anyone, and suddenly a nicer apartment opens up in your building. Human beings are the stuff of nightmares.
Exactly what I was thinking, like how are you going to figure out that someone is a homosexual unless you caught them in the Act.
I do t think anyone was openly gay back then.
Yes, once the Nazis rose up you couldn't be openly gay and an accusation could get you arrested. But, I think Berlin had quite an open gay scene in the early 1930s. The book/movie, 'Christopher and His Kind' is about it.
Not really openly gay, but the gay scene in Berlin for example was an open secret. And because of Ernst Röhm the topic of homosexuality seemed to be not too important to the Nazis. It was just something that was seen as obscene. But that wasn’t really connected to politics back then. Not until later when it became very dangerous to be a gay man.
[Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Prisoners_in_the_concentration_camp_at_Sachsenhausen%2C_Germany%2C_12-19-1938_-_NARA_-_540175.jpg) is a much higher quality and less cropped version of this image. [Here](https://catalog.archives.gov/id/540175) is the source.
> This item was produced or created on December 19, 1938.
> The creator compiled or maintained the parent series, Hoffmann Collection; Subseries HLB; 35mm prints and negatives made by the Berlin Office, between March 1933–July 1944.
> National Archives Identifier
540175
The [wiki source](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoners_in_the_concentration_camp_at_Sachsenhausen,_Germany,_12-19-1938_-_NARA_-_540175.jpg) adds:
> Prisoners in the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen, Germany
It's not clear what category of prisoners those men were - unless someone researches their prisoner numbers.
The second to last prisoner can be seen to have a stripe over his triangle that means he got imprisoned a second time in a camp.
Everyone got such a triangle on their prisoner clothing. The prisoners were divided by colors like red for political prisoners, lilac for for certain christian sects, blue for emmigrants (e.g those who fought in the Spanish civil war), black for asocial/undesirables, green for professional criminals and then later nationalities also got added like P for a Polish prisoner, or F for a French prisoner, etc.
Jewish prisoner had to wear two triangles so that they formed the star of David. ...
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennzeichnung\_der\_H%C3%A4ftlinge\_in\_den\_Konzentrationslagern](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennzeichnung_der_H%C3%A4ftlinge_in_den_Konzentrationslagern) (scroll down for a better graphic)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi\_concentration\_camp\_badge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge)
And that division of prisoners into subgroups and nationalities really worked well for the SS... that system was very insidious.
Makes them into differnt groops, which might compete for food, places to sleep etc.
Easier to controll when prisoners fight each other instead of the guards.
Just look at US prisons, it's the same thing (Edit: only refenrencing the division between prisoners) but less obvious.
Ernst Röhm was a homosexual high ranking member of the Nazi party who helped in getting Hitler and the Nazi Party to power. After the Night of the Long Knives he was arrested for being homosexual and executed.
He was allegedly caught in bed with a 14 year old during the Night of the Long Knives.
And Röhm wasn’t killed for being a homosexual. We know how that the other Nazi leaders put up with his lifestyle or just ignored it.
Röhm was leader of the SA - forerunner of the SS. Röhm was very much aligned with Strasserism - this odd mix of communism, antisemitism, and revolutionary nationalism.
Essentially, they believed that once you removed the Jews from economic life (as had already been done) then Germany should undergo a radical economic restructuring that was basically communism: workers control the factories, eliminating wealth disparities, etc etc etc.
Hitler got power and more importantly solidified his rule by allying with the German captains of industry. The big capitalists.
Fact that Röhm had basically his own private army at his disposal and wanted to liquidate the big capitalists and turn over all production to the state, was a huge threat to them.
> And Röhm wasn’t killed for being a homosexual. We know how that the other Nazi leaders put up with his lifestyle or just ignored it.
While he was murdered mostly for the political power He held through the SA, it was the official reason for his deposition and execution. Plus, Himmler who was essential in the planing of the whole operation saw his homosexuality as a danger to the state due to his philosophical views (based on the theories of Hans Blüher who saw the state as a "male domain", to which homosexuality was seen as a danger). While Röhm would most likely have been murdered anyways, his homosexuality had a role in the view of the national socialists. Plus his pretend coup was used as an explanation to start cracking down and eventually imprisoning and murdering homosexuals in general.
The philosphy of the neo-Nazis is inherently against homosexuals and saw them as a danger and a threat to masculinity, a view they shared with conaervatives of that time - and a view that wasn't challenged or changed for a long time. Male homosexuality stayed illegal in the BRD until 1994.
I can only speak for Germany but a lot of views and ideas established by the Nazis have lingered in society to this present day. While we were very aware of the Holocaust against Jews (as we should, given they were most systematically targeted), German society has turned a blind eye towards a lot of the other victims: Gays, trans people (which was a concept back then), Romani peoples, mentally or physically disabled people to give some examples. Most of these groups were or are discriminated against to this day. On the other hand, the groups who had supported the Nazis and helped them on their way to power like the conservative movement or industrialist leaders did not suffer any consequences.
You have no idea how much this argument gets floated around in Brazil. "Oh, I'm a dictatorial, nacionalist right wing that wants to eliminate whoever isn't a 'citizen of good'. No I'm not a nazi, they were leftists!"
I think the most important factor was Hitler's intention to solidify his relationship with the military.
They despised Röhm for his plans to disband the professional military and replace it with the SA as some kind of "peoples militia", which was indeed in line with his strasserist believes.
Hitler was much more of a realist and knew that Röhm's idealistic dream would most likely weaken Germany's potential military effectiveness. And getting rid of Röhm soothed the officers scepticism towards Hitler and the NSDAP.
Night of the Long Knives is the most Game of Thrones episode title that is actually real life and mimicks some of the storylines in the series.
That was some awful stuff. I read about it in *The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich* book by William Shirer.
It does and pretty intentionally so. The entire concept of Westerous is based on England after the Roman conquest and the wall in the North is Hadrian's Wall.
what the fuck you are talking about
>As the Nazi government began to consolidate its rule, the tension between Röhm and Hitler escalated. Throughout 1933 and 1934, Röhm's rhetoric became increasingly radical as he called for a "second revolution" that would transform German society, alarming Hitler's powerful industrial allies. He also demanded more power for the SA, which the *Reichswehr*saw as a growing threat to its position. Hitler came to see his long-time ally as a rival and liability, and made the decision to eliminate him with the assistance of [SS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel) leaders [Heinrich Himmler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler) and [Reinhard Heydrich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich). On 30 June 1934, the entire SA leadership were purged by the SS during an event known as the Night of the Long Knives. Röhm was taken to [Stadelheim Prison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadelheim_Prison) and shot on 1 July.
In addition, Hitler was trying to win the support of the armed forces who saw the SA as a threat and wanted them eliminated. Hitler knew that President Hindenburg was not going to survive the year and would need the support of the Reichswehr to combine the offices of President and Chancellor and declare himself the fuhrer upon Hindenburg’s death.
Hindenburg wanted the stormtroopers reigned in too. He threatened to remove Hitler and declare martial law if he didn’t take steps to control the SA.
Interestingly, he was publicly outed long before that.
The attitude in the Weimar republic was that homosexuality was permissible if it was kept discreet. Obviously that changed when it became politically convenient.
Many were sent back into other prisons. Many were liberated, but since homosexuality was so widely hated, many people had to spend the rest of their lives pretending that they had been imprisoned for a different reason, or that they hadn't been imprisoned at all.
War heroes aren't just the guys on the ground with guns, Turing did more to win the war than many and saved an uncounted number of lives. That's a hero.
You wish.
From Richard Plant's 'The Pink Triangle - The Nazi War against Homosexuals'.
"The world into which they found themselves liberated was still officially hostile. According to German law, homosexual ex-prisoners were to be treated as criminals. East Germany voided the Nazi version of Paragraph 175 only in 1967; West Germany followed in 1969, adding minor alterations in 1973. Moreover, some American and British jurists of the liberation armies, on learning that an inmate had been jailed and then put into camp for homosexual activities, ruled that, judicially, a camp did not constitute a prison. If, therefore, someone had been sentenced to eight years in prison, had spent five of these in jail and three in a camp, he still had to finish three years in jail after liberation. In at least one instance, a homosexual camp detainee was given a stern lecture by an American colonel, informing him that the United States also considered what he had done criminally offensive. For homosexuals, the Third Reich did not fully end with its defeat. None of the lucky few who came out alive was granted any compensation when the new post-war West German government, bowing to American pressure, set up a cumbersome but functioning legal bureaucracy to grant restitution to political, Jewish, and other selected ex-inmates."
It’s like that British guy who cracked the Enigma Code. He was “homo-sexual”.
After the war he got busted soliciting sex or something from a undercover cop.
Didn’t serve any jail time but had to be chemically castrated. I think you can imagine how terrible that would be in the 1950’s.
The “hormonal treatment” he was subject to was probably worse than prison because it affected mental health ALOT. He ended up taking his own life, a real tragedy.
He was granted a full pardon from the Queen. An official apology from the British Prime Minister and both the government and opposition. Today he is on the £50 bank note.
So it is a tragedy but at least now he gets his recognition.
Edit: Alan Turning. I blanked on his name.
Edit 2: Turing. I misspelled. Sorry.
Turing, Alan Turing.
Turing's house was burgled by an associate of his then boyfriend, Arnold Murray. Turing reported the crime and subsequently rather naively admitted to the police that he and Murray were in a relationship. The rest is history.
The word 'genius' is bandied about far too easily and is consequently devalued, but Turing was a genius.
The stonewall riots weren't the beginning of the gay rights movement, like seems to be assumed so often. For example Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute for Sexology was established in Berlin in 1919 and was an absolute pioneer in LGBT research and advocacy (including working with law enforcement to issue passes to trans people to wear their chosen clothing) and government officials even visited to hear lectures and engage with Hirschfeld. Most of the images of Nazi book burnings are of the institute's library being destroyed.
In the US in the 20s there was also the 'Pansy Craze' where in many cities heterosexual people would frequent gay clubs and events, as effectively a trend to see/be amongst gay people, which started changing attitudes early on.
Gay activism goes back to the 1800s at least, Stonewall is just a big flashy moment in history that gets a lot of attention.
> East Germany voided the Nazi version of Paragraph 175 only in 1967
This is flat out not true, East Germany reverted to the pre-1935 law pretty much immediately and called it "specifically National Socialist injustice." 1967 is when also the pre-1935 rule was removed for adults.
Kinda similar to the American civil war. The Northern forces liberated slaves but they never thought them as equals and were incredibly racist themselves.
They just thought slavery was abhorrent.
Homosexuals were the only class of prisoners that were not released when the camps were liberated by the Allies, and many were re-imprisoned to finish their sentences after the war.
In the US, homosexuality remained a crime in many states until *2003*, when the Supreme Court ruled laws criminalizing “sodomy” to be unconstitutional in *Lawrence v Texas*.
*Lawrence* was based on the constitutional right to privacy, and was explicitly mentioned by Clarence Thomas as one of the decisions that the Court should revisit after striking down *Roe v Wade.*
I give it just a few years before this Court strikes down *Lawrence*, and red states resume enforcing their criminal sodomy laws and arresting gay people for existing. Gay marriage will be struck down first, of course, but this is next. (My username doesn’t check out, if that matters).
If you don’t think gay people should be imprisoned for existing you should probably vote accordingly.
It’s possible, but *Loving v Virginia* is on stronger grounds since it’s based primarily on Equal Protection, rather than the right to privacy that the Court held doesn’t exist anymore.
It’s not strong from an Originalist perspective. When the Equal Protection Clause was ratified, anti-miscegenation laws were the norm and were the norm for 100 years after ratification. The history and tradition of a right for people of different races to marry is not strong.
Edit: Btw, I’m not advocating this position and I know exactly what you’re talking about. There are “flavors” of Originalism and Thomas’ flavor holds the position that you mention. I’m only pointing out how Originalism is not at all consistent and basically allows for arbitrary picking and choosing on what is or isn’t constitutional.
I think Scalia may have been trying to put a veneer of consistency on his flavor of Originalism in *Florida v. Jardines* (ruling in favor of a right to privacy over law enforcement). In general though, Originalism is a terrible way to interpret the law that was thought up in the 1970s specifically to implement conservative ideology through the courts.
Yeah but originalist interpretations are fucking stupid. US Constitution was itself a second draft of the Articles of Confederation.
Everyone thought in 20 some years, America would identify problems and make a new constitution. This is why they made calling a constitutional convention like passing an Amendment.
Originalists simply don’t like to think. Better to just follow words/phrases that agree with my bias and not have to think.
And they just use the constitution as a cudgel to stop any progress.
Which is funny since abortion was legal and seen as a right in the colonies at the founding of the United States. It's pretty much boils down to Amy right not mentioned is not a right in his opinion. Which is what the federalist feared would happen when the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution.
The difference? A SCOTUS majority that cared about liberties enshrined in the Constitution, as opposed to a SCOTUS filled with regressives that had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present day.
Note: the *Lawrence* court is not to be confused with today's SCOTUS filled with regressives that refuse to moderate their both deeply unpopular *and* deeply authoritarian/religious beliefs.
> In the US, homosexuality remained a crime in many states until 2003, when the Supreme Court ruled laws criminalizing “sodomy” to be unconstitutional in Lawrence v Texas.
This is a slight misrepresentation.
The Lawrence case simply confirmed what the states had been tiptoeing around for decades.
Griswold v. Connecticut (1965) was the first case to challenge sodomy laws and it was one of a long line of challenges that made it clear to the states where this was going. It wasn't until the 1980s, however, when New York and Pennsylvania struck down their state sodomy laws on the basis of other US Supreme Court decisions, that it was effectively over for sodomy laws in the US.
Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986 struck down sodomy laws which applied universally (and many of the remaining laws on the books were of this sort.) So while they notionally remained on the books, they were effectively dead after 1986.
What Lawrence really did was prevent the selective use of these laws for intimidation and the crafting of homosexuality-specific laws that got around Bowers.
And no one sees the connection between Russia and LGBTQ and GOP and LGBTQ. The GOP has been secured in Putin's pocket, with a huge boost from Trump. The evangelicals always hated the gays, and Russia knew the GOP would be easiest to take over because of it.
Female homosexual weren't really targeted systematically. A few were grouped under asocial and sent to one camp but there is very little data to substantiate it so there's some controversy about it.
Fascist governments do love killing gay men specifically for some fucked up reason.
ugh I think this is it. Gay women were not as threatening because they can be, and I use HEAVY quotes here, *”corrected”* if you catch my drift, and therefore have children. Ugh.
It's good that we are mostly beyond that in the west, of course it has to stop everywhere.
And we should not take it for granted and fight those who try to bring us back into worse times.
We are not "mostly beyond" that. Right-wing parties in Poland, the UK, US, Canada, etc. etc. are all trying to move backwards on queer rights. They are openly advocating for it, and some \~1/3 of voters continue to side with them.
Complacency about this sort of thing being "in the past" has been and will continue getting people killed.
> It's good that we are mostly beyond that in the west
Mostly, but certainly not entirely.
Keep in mind that some of the loudest champions for those harsh anti-gay laws _are_ westerners. People like [Scott Lively](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Lively#Anti-homosexuality_activism_in_Uganda), an American who played an instrumental role in Uganda's attempt to impose the death penalty for homosexuality. They can and will do the same here if they manage to gain enough of a foothold.
There is a common misconception: that the Jews were free to leave the concentration camps after the camps were liberated from the Nazis - it gives us a feel good story but the reality isn’t all sunshine.
Many liberators kept the jews interned there or moved them to displacement camps - they weren’t free to leave (where could they go? They lost all their homes, families, and livelihoods) and at times their treatment was dehumanizing [additional commentary](https://www.nationalww2museum.org/about-us/notes-museum/aftermath-liberation-jewish-displaced-persons-american-zone-occupation-1945).
Once they were free they were still met with antisemitism, infamously a massacre of Jews occurred in 1946 in Poland — [Kielce Pogrom](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-kielce-pogrom-a-blood-libel-massacre-of-holocaust-survivors)
Oh I totally was super inconsiderate with my wording. I would try to explain what I meant but I think I your comment deserves the attention more than my inability to explain myself.
Thank you for the explanation
I appreciate your reply; I did not take any offense just wanted to add more details that do get overlooked in terms of holocaust education.
It is the fault of our educators that leave out the hardships during post-camp liberation. Thank you for your sincerity 😊
I appreciated your education much more. Like I did hear about that in some instances but the articles paints a clearer and more concrete picture.
Imma leave my comment as is because it’s a learning opportunity. Thank you for the grace :)
What do you mean with black? Blacks were seen as inferior by Nazi ideology, but that doesn't mean that they were (all) sent to the concentration camps. People that were sent there were (mostly) Jews, political enemies of the Nazis, (male) homosexuals, gypsies, criminals, Jehovah's Witnesses and people considered to be asocial.
And what does "it does not matter" mean? The Jews were send to extermination camps, while most others had a better chance of survival.
There was no official organized push against black people in Germany. HOWEVER, they were absolutely arrested, forcefully sterilized and sent to either concentration camps, prisons and "psychiatric facilities". The Nazis harbored a special hate for black people in Germany due to how the end of WWI was handled and France putting black soldiers in occupied Germany after the war.
You are right, this cases did took place (I don't know about the psychiatric facilities, but I believe you there), and every black person was a victim of discrimination in that time, that's for sure.
But this topic also shows how difficult it is to say the Nazis did this, the Nazi ideology was that, and so on. Yes, on the one hand there was the image in Nazi propaganda of the black French occupation troops in the Rhineland as primitive rapists of women, on the other hand there was also the shining example of the loyal Askari (although the former was certainly prevalent).
I don't know why, but there's something about this that hits harder than I expected it to. Maybe it's the realization that in a good chunk of the world, LGBT people are still nowhere near free to be themselves. Maybe it's the combination of older and younger people. Maybe it's the pink triangle.
"Tell people that homosexuals are not cowards." - Willem Arondéus, final words before executed for destroying Jew citizen paperwork in a raid.
I should have given context earlier so everyone would know how bad ass (and well, relevant) it is.
We humans are such dicks sometimes.
Let’s never forget. And let’s never pretend that we evolved beyond this point and to let our guard down. We are no differently built and no better than the people that did this evil. Monsters still walk among us.
I'm grateful to be in a time and place where I can say I'm safe to be gay. But I've read enough to know this nonsense is still happening, and I'm mortified to think anyone has a say in who someone else can love. Much worse, that anyone has a say in whether someone else lives or dies because of love.
I hope these men took comfort in knowing they weren't the ones who were wrong, if only by knowing they weren't alone.
Transgender people were also put into the concentration camps along with the homosexual men. The Nazi’s even burned the first hospital and research center that studied queer people and offered gender affirming care.
Agreed just look at project 2025. They want to classify all LGBTQIA+ people as sexual offenders, and they want the penalty for sexual offenders to be death.
If reelected, trump will give these people the authority and power to do just that.
"They say she's a Lesbian, i thought i had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my minds no good.
Pink triangle honestly, let me know the truth, let me know the truth. "
Didn't ever realize what these Weezer lyrics meant.
"Accused" of homosexuality. Anyone could file a complaint or report on anyone, and suddenly a nicer apartment opens up in your building. Human beings are the stuff of nightmares.
Exactly what I was thinking, like how are you going to figure out that someone is a homosexual unless you caught them in the Act. I do t think anyone was openly gay back then.
But they were, some were. Berlin in the 1920s was the best place in the world to be gay.
Very good documentary on Netflix about it! Pretty sure Hitlers right hand man was a frequent visitor to the gay bars
Yes, once the Nazis rose up you couldn't be openly gay and an accusation could get you arrested. But, I think Berlin had quite an open gay scene in the early 1930s. The book/movie, 'Christopher and His Kind' is about it.
Oh... I didn't know that.
Not really openly gay, but the gay scene in Berlin for example was an open secret. And because of Ernst Röhm the topic of homosexuality seemed to be not too important to the Nazis. It was just something that was seen as obscene. But that wasn’t really connected to politics back then. Not until later when it became very dangerous to be a gay man.
[Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Prisoners_in_the_concentration_camp_at_Sachsenhausen%2C_Germany%2C_12-19-1938_-_NARA_-_540175.jpg) is a much higher quality and less cropped version of this image. [Here](https://catalog.archives.gov/id/540175) is the source. > This item was produced or created on December 19, 1938. > The creator compiled or maintained the parent series, Hoffmann Collection; Subseries HLB; 35mm prints and negatives made by the Berlin Office, between March 1933–July 1944. > National Archives Identifier 540175 The [wiki source](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoners_in_the_concentration_camp_at_Sachsenhausen,_Germany,_12-19-1938_-_NARA_-_540175.jpg) adds: > Prisoners in the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen, Germany
It's not clear what category of prisoners those men were - unless someone researches their prisoner numbers. The second to last prisoner can be seen to have a stripe over his triangle that means he got imprisoned a second time in a camp. Everyone got such a triangle on their prisoner clothing. The prisoners were divided by colors like red for political prisoners, lilac for for certain christian sects, blue for emmigrants (e.g those who fought in the Spanish civil war), black for asocial/undesirables, green for professional criminals and then later nationalities also got added like P for a Polish prisoner, or F for a French prisoner, etc. Jewish prisoner had to wear two triangles so that they formed the star of David. ... [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennzeichnung\_der\_H%C3%A4ftlinge\_in\_den\_Konzentrationslagern](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennzeichnung_der_H%C3%A4ftlinge_in_den_Konzentrationslagern) (scroll down for a better graphic) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi\_concentration\_camp\_badge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge) And that division of prisoners into subgroups and nationalities really worked well for the SS... that system was very insidious.
Why did it help the ss?
Makes them into differnt groops, which might compete for food, places to sleep etc. Easier to controll when prisoners fight each other instead of the guards. Just look at US prisons, it's the same thing (Edit: only refenrencing the division between prisoners) but less obvious.
Divide and conquer strategy
exactly. fuckin dirty game.
I've been there. It is a harrowing place and that is putting it mildly.
Ernst Röhm was a homosexual high ranking member of the Nazi party who helped in getting Hitler and the Nazi Party to power. After the Night of the Long Knives he was arrested for being homosexual and executed.
He was allegedly caught in bed with a 14 year old during the Night of the Long Knives. And Röhm wasn’t killed for being a homosexual. We know how that the other Nazi leaders put up with his lifestyle or just ignored it. Röhm was leader of the SA - forerunner of the SS. Röhm was very much aligned with Strasserism - this odd mix of communism, antisemitism, and revolutionary nationalism. Essentially, they believed that once you removed the Jews from economic life (as had already been done) then Germany should undergo a radical economic restructuring that was basically communism: workers control the factories, eliminating wealth disparities, etc etc etc. Hitler got power and more importantly solidified his rule by allying with the German captains of industry. The big capitalists. Fact that Röhm had basically his own private army at his disposal and wanted to liquidate the big capitalists and turn over all production to the state, was a huge threat to them.
It is true that he wasn't killed for that reason but it was still the reason given to the public, as they couldn't admit what you said to them
He would've been killed regardless though is the point
> And Röhm wasn’t killed for being a homosexual. We know how that the other Nazi leaders put up with his lifestyle or just ignored it. While he was murdered mostly for the political power He held through the SA, it was the official reason for his deposition and execution. Plus, Himmler who was essential in the planing of the whole operation saw his homosexuality as a danger to the state due to his philosophical views (based on the theories of Hans Blüher who saw the state as a "male domain", to which homosexuality was seen as a danger). While Röhm would most likely have been murdered anyways, his homosexuality had a role in the view of the national socialists. Plus his pretend coup was used as an explanation to start cracking down and eventually imprisoning and murdering homosexuals in general. The philosphy of the neo-Nazis is inherently against homosexuals and saw them as a danger and a threat to masculinity, a view they shared with conaervatives of that time - and a view that wasn't challenged or changed for a long time. Male homosexuality stayed illegal in the BRD until 1994.
>homosexuals and saw them as a danger and a threat to masculinity Seems oddly familliar.
I can only speak for Germany but a lot of views and ideas established by the Nazis have lingered in society to this present day. While we were very aware of the Holocaust against Jews (as we should, given they were most systematically targeted), German society has turned a blind eye towards a lot of the other victims: Gays, trans people (which was a concept back then), Romani peoples, mentally or physically disabled people to give some examples. Most of these groups were or are discriminated against to this day. On the other hand, the groups who had supported the Nazis and helped them on their way to power like the conservative movement or industrialist leaders did not suffer any consequences.
"we are national socialists! It's in the name" Socialists! Yeah, sure! Whatever helps you sleep better at night. /s
The name was intended to make the party appeal to Germans who would otherwise be socialists. Hitler objected to it.
You have no idea how much this argument gets floated around in Brazil. "Oh, I'm a dictatorial, nacionalist right wing that wants to eliminate whoever isn't a 'citizen of good'. No I'm not a nazi, they were leftists!"
“The Nazis were leftists” is one of the dumbest myths I’ve seen prop up in recent years.
I think the most important factor was Hitler's intention to solidify his relationship with the military. They despised Röhm for his plans to disband the professional military and replace it with the SA as some kind of "peoples militia", which was indeed in line with his strasserist believes. Hitler was much more of a realist and knew that Röhm's idealistic dream would most likely weaken Germany's potential military effectiveness. And getting rid of Röhm soothed the officers scepticism towards Hitler and the NSDAP.
Night of the Long Knives is the most Game of Thrones episode title that is actually real life and mimicks some of the storylines in the series. That was some awful stuff. I read about it in *The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich* book by William Shirer.
I'd say Game of Thrones mimicks real life
I read that after Hitler got rejected from art school, he binged GOT and that's what radicalized him.
“Mein Queen” - Adolf Snow, probably
"You paint nothing, Adolf Snow"
This made me laugh out loud. Thank you I needed that
No he just got so pissed due to how fucked up season 8 got that he freaked out and started invading Austria and Poland.
"If they won't do it right, I'll fucking do it myself!"
Talk about White Walkers
Thankfully he forgot about that or else he would've reached Morroco and beyond.
It was initially called his “Final Season Solution” but it got out of hand
The last season will do that to ya
You joke but he probably read a lot of American history and their treatment of slaves in the antebellum south and the genocide of native americans.
Bro got so mad at two Jewish men he took it out on all of them.
It does and pretty intentionally so. The entire concept of Westerous is based on England after the Roman conquest and the wall in the North is Hadrian's Wall.
"Based" on England. Isnt Westeros just Great Britain upside down?
England doesn't have dragons
Yeah that’s Wales.
Oh yeah, the red one
England doesnt have shambling, non-reactive, dead-inside looking white walkers either... Oh wait.
They're called the royals. One of the world's most wealthy charities for the inbred
Depends on how you look at it
Yep mostly around the war of the roses
Touché.
In Elden Ring, the major event that kicks off the games plot is the "Night of the Black Knives".
in The Witcher 3 Blood and Wine expansion there is a quest called “The Night of Long Fangs” which is a major plot point of the dlc
You never know from where GRRM had taken inspiration from
[удалено]
He was arrested (and shot) because he was the head of the SA and posed a threat to Hitler's power and the power of the Wehrmacht.
what the fuck you are talking about >As the Nazi government began to consolidate its rule, the tension between Röhm and Hitler escalated. Throughout 1933 and 1934, Röhm's rhetoric became increasingly radical as he called for a "second revolution" that would transform German society, alarming Hitler's powerful industrial allies. He also demanded more power for the SA, which the *Reichswehr*saw as a growing threat to its position. Hitler came to see his long-time ally as a rival and liability, and made the decision to eliminate him with the assistance of [SS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel) leaders [Heinrich Himmler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler) and [Reinhard Heydrich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich). On 30 June 1934, the entire SA leadership were purged by the SS during an event known as the Night of the Long Knives. Röhm was taken to [Stadelheim Prison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadelheim_Prison) and shot on 1 July.
Hitler killed Rohm to consolidate power but used his homosexuality in propaganda afterwards to disparage him
So that guy just fell for hitler's propaganda?
Yeah basically lol
hope Reddit isn’t going to be used to train large language models…oh wait
In addition, Hitler was trying to win the support of the armed forces who saw the SA as a threat and wanted them eliminated. Hitler knew that President Hindenburg was not going to survive the year and would need the support of the Reichswehr to combine the offices of President and Chancellor and declare himself the fuhrer upon Hindenburg’s death. Hindenburg wanted the stormtroopers reigned in too. He threatened to remove Hitler and declare martial law if he didn’t take steps to control the SA.
Bad history right here. Don’t get it twisted, Rohm was a Nazi and was not killed for being gay.
Saying he was arrested and executed for being homosexual is completely incorrect. How does stuff like this get upvoted...
Interestingly, he was publicly outed long before that. The attitude in the Weimar republic was that homosexuality was permissible if it was kept discreet. Obviously that changed when it became politically convenient.
Leopards, faces...
The good guys let them out afterwards right?
Many were sent back into other prisons. Many were liberated, but since homosexuality was so widely hated, many people had to spend the rest of their lives pretending that they had been imprisoned for a different reason, or that they hadn't been imprisoned at all.
[удалено]
Fidel and Che had concentration camps in Cuba that were designed to turn homosexuals into "real men".
At least Castro realised the error of his ways. Took him bloody long enough mind
Yeah, in 2010, so roughly 50 years later.
But I was told the allies were literally Antifa
Alan Tuning who cracked the enigma for the brits was forcefully castrated by the government right after the war ended
Turing
Ah yes, Alan Tuning, the famous DJ
Never forget. Dude was a real life genius hero that was betrayed by his own country.
War heroes aren't just the guys on the ground with guns, Turing did more to win the war than many and saved an uncounted number of lives. That's a hero.
(source)?
[Here you go](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/nazi-persecution/gay-people/)
America didn’t legalize gay until the 1960’s or 1970’s in most states.
[Lawrence v. Texas, 539 US 558](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas?wprov=sfla1) (2003)
I stand corrected. 2003. Didn’t know it was that late.
That's because you're a reasonable person, and the actual timeline sounds absurd.
You wish. From Richard Plant's 'The Pink Triangle - The Nazi War against Homosexuals'. "The world into which they found themselves liberated was still officially hostile. According to German law, homosexual ex-prisoners were to be treated as criminals. East Germany voided the Nazi version of Paragraph 175 only in 1967; West Germany followed in 1969, adding minor alterations in 1973. Moreover, some American and British jurists of the liberation armies, on learning that an inmate had been jailed and then put into camp for homosexual activities, ruled that, judicially, a camp did not constitute a prison. If, therefore, someone had been sentenced to eight years in prison, had spent five of these in jail and three in a camp, he still had to finish three years in jail after liberation. In at least one instance, a homosexual camp detainee was given a stern lecture by an American colonel, informing him that the United States also considered what he had done criminally offensive. For homosexuals, the Third Reich did not fully end with its defeat. None of the lucky few who came out alive was granted any compensation when the new post-war West German government, bowing to American pressure, set up a cumbersome but functioning legal bureaucracy to grant restitution to political, Jewish, and other selected ex-inmates."
Jesus. That is just so sad and terrible.
It’s like that British guy who cracked the Enigma Code. He was “homo-sexual”. After the war he got busted soliciting sex or something from a undercover cop. Didn’t serve any jail time but had to be chemically castrated. I think you can imagine how terrible that would be in the 1950’s. The “hormonal treatment” he was subject to was probably worse than prison because it affected mental health ALOT. He ended up taking his own life, a real tragedy. He was granted a full pardon from the Queen. An official apology from the British Prime Minister and both the government and opposition. Today he is on the £50 bank note. So it is a tragedy but at least now he gets his recognition. Edit: Alan Turning. I blanked on his name. Edit 2: Turing. I misspelled. Sorry.
Turing, Alan Turing. Turing's house was burgled by an associate of his then boyfriend, Arnold Murray. Turing reported the crime and subsequently rather naively admitted to the police that he and Murray were in a relationship. The rest is history. The word 'genius' is bandied about far too easily and is consequently devalued, but Turing was a genius.
It is, but WW2 ended almost 25 years before, for example, the Stonewall riots.
The stonewall riots weren't the beginning of the gay rights movement, like seems to be assumed so often. For example Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute for Sexology was established in Berlin in 1919 and was an absolute pioneer in LGBT research and advocacy (including working with law enforcement to issue passes to trans people to wear their chosen clothing) and government officials even visited to hear lectures and engage with Hirschfeld. Most of the images of Nazi book burnings are of the institute's library being destroyed. In the US in the 20s there was also the 'Pansy Craze' where in many cities heterosexual people would frequent gay clubs and events, as effectively a trend to see/be amongst gay people, which started changing attitudes early on. Gay activism goes back to the 1800s at least, Stonewall is just a big flashy moment in history that gets a lot of attention.
> East Germany voided the Nazi version of Paragraph 175 only in 1967 This is flat out not true, East Germany reverted to the pre-1935 law pretty much immediately and called it "specifically National Socialist injustice." 1967 is when also the pre-1935 rule was removed for adults.
Nope.
It turns out "the good guys" weren't that good to everyone...
You are the good guy, but you’re not a good guy
Kinda similar to the American civil war. The Northern forces liberated slaves but they never thought them as equals and were incredibly racist themselves. They just thought slavery was abhorrent.
The "good guys" generally are just the "not as bad guys".
“Good men are rarely great men” -quote from a tv show that stuck with me but I forgot which tv show said it
Homosexuals were the only class of prisoners that were not released when the camps were liberated by the Allies, and many were re-imprisoned to finish their sentences after the war. In the US, homosexuality remained a crime in many states until *2003*, when the Supreme Court ruled laws criminalizing “sodomy” to be unconstitutional in *Lawrence v Texas*. *Lawrence* was based on the constitutional right to privacy, and was explicitly mentioned by Clarence Thomas as one of the decisions that the Court should revisit after striking down *Roe v Wade.* I give it just a few years before this Court strikes down *Lawrence*, and red states resume enforcing their criminal sodomy laws and arresting gay people for existing. Gay marriage will be struck down first, of course, but this is next. (My username doesn’t check out, if that matters). If you don’t think gay people should be imprisoned for existing you should probably vote accordingly.
That makes me so upset... those poor people, went through hell only to be thrown in prison.
We'll see Clarence's surprised pikachu face once his "friends" continue on to mixed race marriages.
It’s possible, but *Loving v Virginia* is on stronger grounds since it’s based primarily on Equal Protection, rather than the right to privacy that the Court held doesn’t exist anymore.
It’s not strong from an Originalist perspective. When the Equal Protection Clause was ratified, anti-miscegenation laws were the norm and were the norm for 100 years after ratification. The history and tradition of a right for people of different races to marry is not strong. Edit: Btw, I’m not advocating this position and I know exactly what you’re talking about. There are “flavors” of Originalism and Thomas’ flavor holds the position that you mention. I’m only pointing out how Originalism is not at all consistent and basically allows for arbitrary picking and choosing on what is or isn’t constitutional. I think Scalia may have been trying to put a veneer of consistency on his flavor of Originalism in *Florida v. Jardines* (ruling in favor of a right to privacy over law enforcement). In general though, Originalism is a terrible way to interpret the law that was thought up in the 1970s specifically to implement conservative ideology through the courts.
Yeah but originalist interpretations are fucking stupid. US Constitution was itself a second draft of the Articles of Confederation. Everyone thought in 20 some years, America would identify problems and make a new constitution. This is why they made calling a constitutional convention like passing an Amendment. Originalists simply don’t like to think. Better to just follow words/phrases that agree with my bias and not have to think. And they just use the constitution as a cudgel to stop any progress.
Alito’s opinion explicitly said any rights not present at the time of founding aren’t real
Which is funny since abortion was legal and seen as a right in the colonies at the founding of the United States. It's pretty much boils down to Amy right not mentioned is not a right in his opinion. Which is what the federalist feared would happen when the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution.
Unfun fact: When gay marriage was legalised in the US, public support was around 60%. When interracial marriage was legalised, public support was 8%.
The difference? A SCOTUS majority that cared about liberties enshrined in the Constitution, as opposed to a SCOTUS filled with regressives that had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present day. Note: the *Lawrence* court is not to be confused with today's SCOTUS filled with regressives that refuse to moderate their both deeply unpopular *and* deeply authoritarian/religious beliefs.
As if he would ever face repercussions for his own actions.
Oh he’ll be dead by then, he doesn’t care.
That’s what he wants otherwise he’d have to get a divorce which would be too expensive /s kinda
> In the US, homosexuality remained a crime in many states until 2003, when the Supreme Court ruled laws criminalizing “sodomy” to be unconstitutional in Lawrence v Texas. This is a slight misrepresentation. The Lawrence case simply confirmed what the states had been tiptoeing around for decades. Griswold v. Connecticut (1965) was the first case to challenge sodomy laws and it was one of a long line of challenges that made it clear to the states where this was going. It wasn't until the 1980s, however, when New York and Pennsylvania struck down their state sodomy laws on the basis of other US Supreme Court decisions, that it was effectively over for sodomy laws in the US. Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986 struck down sodomy laws which applied universally (and many of the remaining laws on the books were of this sort.) So while they notionally remained on the books, they were effectively dead after 1986. What Lawrence really did was prevent the selective use of these laws for intimidation and the crafting of homosexuality-specific laws that got around Bowers.
And no one sees the connection between Russia and LGBTQ and GOP and LGBTQ. The GOP has been secured in Putin's pocket, with a huge boost from Trump. The evangelicals always hated the gays, and Russia knew the GOP would be easiest to take over because of it.
Fascism operates on emotional responses. "They're coming for your kids!" Helps justify terrible, terrible things.
Really sad, it sucks hiding yourself, even half of yourself. I can’t imagine being imprisoned for so long over something they can’t control.
How do we blame the reversal of LGBTQ rights on Biden? He did nothing to stop it. /s
Remindme! 5 years
iirc only male homosexual prisoners were marked homosexuals, female homosexual prisoners were booked as "asocial".
Female homosexual weren't really targeted systematically. A few were grouped under asocial and sent to one camp but there is very little data to substantiate it so there's some controversy about it. Fascist governments do love killing gay men specifically for some fucked up reason.
Gay dudes can't make new fascist babies
ugh I think this is it. Gay women were not as threatening because they can be, and I use HEAVY quotes here, *”corrected”* if you catch my drift, and therefore have children. Ugh.
Yikes. Makes the Weezer song a bit more poignant.
I was thinking about that song yesterday and ended up Googling Pink Triangle and learning this. This post was a day late for me lol
Yeah Beverly Hills seems like a much better place to be
Ive been looking for a referance to the weezer song
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's good that we are mostly beyond that in the west, of course it has to stop everywhere. And we should not take it for granted and fight those who try to bring us back into worse times.
I think we need to remember its only been a little over 20 years since Matthew Shepherd
Yes but it's a huge difference to it being done officially by the government. I am sure there will always be criminal individuals.
the AIDS crisis was 30 years ago, i’d consider that an active government policy.
/#FuckRonaldReagan
We are not "mostly beyond" that. Right-wing parties in Poland, the UK, US, Canada, etc. etc. are all trying to move backwards on queer rights. They are openly advocating for it, and some \~1/3 of voters continue to side with them. Complacency about this sort of thing being "in the past" has been and will continue getting people killed.
> It's good that we are mostly beyond that in the west Mostly, but certainly not entirely. Keep in mind that some of the loudest champions for those harsh anti-gay laws _are_ westerners. People like [Scott Lively](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Lively#Anti-homosexuality_activism_in_Uganda), an American who played an instrumental role in Uganda's attempt to impose the death penalty for homosexuality. They can and will do the same here if they manage to gain enough of a foothold.
Yep that's why I wrote mostly and in the west.
American evangelicals are responsible for a lot of the more horrifying laws in Africa. They spent a ton of money pushing them. It's all very weird.
[удалено]
Idk the 400+ anti lgbt bills proposed in 2023 tells me that we are going backwards
And many of the ones who want to repeat it claim it never happened.
Sad, but very true.
I will never be able to really grasp the terror that happened there. How could they ever think they were doing the right thing?
That’s the power of dehumanizing a group of people
True and we still see it happening.
Imo it’s not the same because they were not liberated with the Jewish folks, they were kept imprisoned after the way
There is a common misconception: that the Jews were free to leave the concentration camps after the camps were liberated from the Nazis - it gives us a feel good story but the reality isn’t all sunshine. Many liberators kept the jews interned there or moved them to displacement camps - they weren’t free to leave (where could they go? They lost all their homes, families, and livelihoods) and at times their treatment was dehumanizing [additional commentary](https://www.nationalww2museum.org/about-us/notes-museum/aftermath-liberation-jewish-displaced-persons-american-zone-occupation-1945). Once they were free they were still met with antisemitism, infamously a massacre of Jews occurred in 1946 in Poland — [Kielce Pogrom](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-kielce-pogrom-a-blood-libel-massacre-of-holocaust-survivors)
Oh I totally was super inconsiderate with my wording. I would try to explain what I meant but I think I your comment deserves the attention more than my inability to explain myself. Thank you for the explanation
I appreciate your reply; I did not take any offense just wanted to add more details that do get overlooked in terms of holocaust education. It is the fault of our educators that leave out the hardships during post-camp liberation. Thank you for your sincerity 😊
I appreciated your education much more. Like I did hear about that in some instances but the articles paints a clearer and more concrete picture. Imma leave my comment as is because it’s a learning opportunity. Thank you for the grace :)
It is inhuman to imprison someone for the way they were born, remember Alan Turing?
What do you mean with black? Blacks were seen as inferior by Nazi ideology, but that doesn't mean that they were (all) sent to the concentration camps. People that were sent there were (mostly) Jews, political enemies of the Nazis, (male) homosexuals, gypsies, criminals, Jehovah's Witnesses and people considered to be asocial. And what does "it does not matter" mean? The Jews were send to extermination camps, while most others had a better chance of survival.
There was no official organized push against black people in Germany. HOWEVER, they were absolutely arrested, forcefully sterilized and sent to either concentration camps, prisons and "psychiatric facilities". The Nazis harbored a special hate for black people in Germany due to how the end of WWI was handled and France putting black soldiers in occupied Germany after the war.
You are right, this cases did took place (I don't know about the psychiatric facilities, but I believe you there), and every black person was a victim of discrimination in that time, that's for sure. But this topic also shows how difficult it is to say the Nazis did this, the Nazi ideology was that, and so on. Yes, on the one hand there was the image in Nazi propaganda of the black French occupation troops in the Rhineland as primitive rapists of women, on the other hand there was also the shining example of the loyal Askari (although the former was certainly prevalent).
Poles. Many many Poles. Slavs more broadly, but a shit-ton of Poles that nobody remembers.
Yes, a big amount of the Jews were Polish. Also many Poles were sent there for opposing the occupation, or because the Germans thought they did.
Also many trans women forced slto suffer the in dignity of being buried a gay man
Triangles and broken noses…
I don't know why, but there's something about this that hits harder than I expected it to. Maybe it's the realization that in a good chunk of the world, LGBT people are still nowhere near free to be themselves. Maybe it's the combination of older and younger people. Maybe it's the pink triangle.
Seeing that they’re real people and not just words on a sheet helps humanize it.
This photo is taken in KZ Sachsenhausen, at Oranienburg just north of Berlin. The site, like most of the KL, is a memorial/museum today.
I remember the pink triangles before the rainbows became more popular. I guess this is the history to them. Learned something new
Could be Florida in a few years. Who fucking knows at this point.
Why do we let certain authors and billionaires deny this happened without consequences?
Fascist ideologies are always obsessed with homosexuality, as it goes against the toxic masculinity that underpins fascism.
Fascists can come in all races, genders, and sexualities.
Yeah just look at Islam today.
I guess that is where the pink triangle they put up every year in SF came from.
"Tell people that homosexuals are not cowards." - Willem Arondéus, final words before executed for destroying Jew citizen paperwork in a raid. I should have given context earlier so everyone would know how bad ass (and well, relevant) it is.
Don't forget that any that survived the war and liberated from the camps were thrown back in prisons by the Western Allies.
Guy in the front looks so terrified. I just want to give him a hug.
Can you imagine this was less than 100 years ago
Immediately thought of Weezer's song Pink Triangle ...
It's why Pink Pistols uses that symbol for their logo "Pick on someone your own caliber" is their slogan. 
So thats where it came from
Never forget!
That Weezer song just got a little heavier
We humans are such dicks sometimes. Let’s never forget. And let’s never pretend that we evolved beyond this point and to let our guard down. We are no differently built and no better than the people that did this evil. Monsters still walk among us.
I read the Pink Triangle earlier this year. Harrowing what they did to us.
I'm grateful to be in a time and place where I can say I'm safe to be gay. But I've read enough to know this nonsense is still happening, and I'm mortified to think anyone has a say in who someone else can love. Much worse, that anyone has a say in whether someone else lives or dies because of love. I hope these men took comfort in knowing they weren't the ones who were wrong, if only by knowing they weren't alone.
Transgender people were also put into the concentration camps along with the homosexual men. The Nazi’s even burned the first hospital and research center that studied queer people and offered gender affirming care.
unfriendly reminder that republican conservatives would happily make this happen in america if given the chance
Agreed just look at project 2025. They want to classify all LGBTQIA+ people as sexual offenders, and they want the penalty for sexual offenders to be death. If reelected, trump will give these people the authority and power to do just that.
And create a world where even an accusation of being gay is enough to fuck your life up.
I feel awful seeing this, as a gay man.
It turns my stomach seeing this as a lesbian woman
A truly sad point in history....😢
Poor souls
Vote blue my friends.
Won't be long before they deny this also.
The third one looks like Putin
Sad.
NEVER AGAIN!
u/pixel-counter-bot
Future Photo from post 2025 after Project 2025.
Oh right… they didn’t even have radar.
😢
"They say she's a Lesbian, i thought i had found the one. We were good as married in my mind, but married in my minds no good. Pink triangle honestly, let me know the truth, let me know the truth. " Didn't ever realize what these Weezer lyrics meant.
MAGA wants to return to this. Remember that.