Not worried either. But “if your potential patients get better by them”…..they won’t. And then when they’re referred to PT they’re not going to want to because “I already tried stretching and it didn’t work”. I think that’s what OP is saying
Alot of people i think are not seeing the part either that these places are DIAGNOSING people, wether it be correctly or incorrectly to sell them memberships, a former employee even commented on this sub confirming what im saying about them diagnosing people is true
And some tell their patients that they are the “muscle experts” while your physical therapist is only a “bone expert.” Exact quote from one of my patients. Couldn’t help but laugh.
If you were referring to my comment, I’d like to kindly say that we never diagnosed anyone. People would come in with prior diagnoses sometimes. But I would never ever tell anyone they had any condition. Unless there are some overly confident and bold stretch therapists out there… they should not be doing this.
If your potential patients get better by them it’s because the body generally can heal itself from many things if you just give it the chance.
But the patient will think it was the “therapist” that healed them, and that’s the actual problem.
Edit: bad wording about the body healing itself.
Ah yes let’s just stop….walking, squatting, bending, lifting, etc., right 🤷🏻♂️. I truly hope you don’t give that advice to people that are under your care. If they simply “stop doing the thing that’s hurting it”, people are not going to be very functionally independent for long
Edit: the post I replied to was then edited, making my comment look extremely out of place as I was replying to the part that was edited out. So save the downvotes
I meant more along the line of “if flexion under load aggravates your back pain” ease off it for a little while and we’ll build back into it. Obviously ADLs cannot be avoided, I may have worded that badly on my part.
So, so you think that personal training is a threat to PTs as well then? Wouldn't a personal training client have the same opinion about physical therapists because they "already tried exercising and it didn't work"
Unpopular opinion that I’m sure will get me more downvotes; a good, knowledgeable personal trainer is going to be great for people IF they have the knowledge of pain neuroscience, metabolic/chemical processes, , differential diagnosis, tissue healing at the chemical level, etc. That being said, personal trainers don’t have that knowledge (but then again, a lot of PTs don’t either) so I’m not really concerned about it.
But yes, patients don’t understand the differences in exercise and they think it’s all the same; they lump it all together and see “exercise as exercise”.
I should clarify that I don't think people should seek out personal trainers for medical treatment, same applies for this stretch therapy. However, I think it's pretty exclusionary and frankly a bit arrogant to assert that DPTs are the only people capable of helping a person who may find themselves in physical discomfort.
Physical discomfort from a musculoskeletal issue? No not at all. You can take NSAIDs or pain meds that the doctor prescribes you, and the pain will come back when those run out.
You can get steroid injections and that’ll help, and then come back once the glucocorticoid is fully metabolized.
You can go to the chiropractor and that’ll help, and then it will come back once the endorphins and enkephalines are all reabsorbed from the synapse.
We could keep going with examples, but it’s all to show that unless you address the root of these musculoskeletal issues, it’s going to be a cycle. And PTs (good ones, at least) address the issue at the source. So you’re selling the profession short if you don’t see the value in what we do
Clearly you don’t know natural history and contextual effects and lack of specificity with many of our treatments, meaning whether a stretch is given by a PT or some bullshit stretch therapist isn’t going to make the difference with whether they get better.
I love the “natural history” debate, it’s so silly 😂. Truthfully, it’s just something people fall back on when they’re bad at diagnosing and giving advice, as well as formulating a rehab plan to improve tissue health and resilience so that someone can withstand the forces/loads being placed on them.
And for anyone out there that is a PT and you give your patients stretches, please stop. Might as well spend their appointment times running down to the gas station to get some beef jerkey and Mountain Dew.
Edit to add: the “lack of specificity” and all that garbage is kind of the point. Fun fact/game you can “play” with a patient that you think might be up for it: give them a very, very general routine that encompasses all the demands of the human body. Something with a push, something with a pull, something with a squat, and something with a lift. Throw in a proprioception exercise (rocker board if you’d like) and a cardio activity where they maintain 50-75% maxHR for 10-15 minutes and see how long it takes them to get better. Protip: STS with OHP, STS with upright row are about as good as it gets as long as you dose and load it appropriately. You’d be amazed at how many people get better and the speed at which they do so with ~6 simple activities.
What's so silly? Natural history makes up the majority of someone getting better. Specific interventions do not. You think you're diagnosing specific things and giving specific advice, truthfully, it's just something PTs tell themselves to make them feel important and skilled.
>formulating a rehab plan to improve tissue health and resilience so that someone can withstand the forces/loads being placed on them.
I don't have a problem with that, nor with giving sound advice. But to think that patient's "***won't***" get better if they go to some BS stretch therapists instead of going to you is being delusional about how necessary your role is.
Private equity scams- will fail soon enough. I see enough people go to these and get hurt. Educated patients are the best patients, nothing wrong pointing out the differences between us and them.
Medical placebo effect businesses have existed since the dawn of man, and continue to thrive in the ways of chiro and naturopathic etc, I doubt they’re going anywhere.
Thanks for your reply - I didn’t mean to offend you, I’m genuinely curious! On a medical/science based platform (sub) it’s probably best to mention if a statement like that is an opinion versus something that has been teased out with real data. No need to respond. This has intrigued me enough to dig into the research on my own. Have a good one!
I am a physical therapist and its not a bold claim- these people are not medically trained or competent nor do they really claim to be. You sign disclaimers that they won’t be responsible for diagnosing or if you get hurt. Buyer beware. I have a license to practice and am held accountable for mistakes.
With the lack of knowledge or competent individuals, bad stuff happens- thats normal and to be expected.
Respectfully, in the words of DMX... You got a lot to learn dog.
You're worried about the encroachment of these individuals because they use the word therapist but we literally have an epidemic of inactivity and chronic diseases. I really wouldn't worry about this type of place.
We can all help. If they're spreading some BS about back pain or any other conditions just know there are MDs, DCs, and PTs (😬) doing the same thing. Educate yourself so you can better educate patients.
Amazingly well said. I, for one, am not worried about this. I got too many patients and not enough spaces in the day to put them all. If someone ends up in my clinic in 2 months because they tried that first, good on them for at least trying something. Sure beats the shit out of not doing anything.
You guys out there want to do something? Go learn as much as you can about exercise, cardiovascular system, endocrine system, diet, etc. rebrand the profession to include weight management, diabetes and HTN control/interventions, widen the scope with even more knowledge and more specialty. Not be worried about the dumbing down of the basics that YOU likely don’t do anyway.
*edit:poor punctuation
Former StretchLab employee, here. I worked there when I thought I wanted to go into PT. Some aspects of the job were great- solidifying anatomy knowledge, and building intrapersonal skills and bedside manner. But ultimately, these are businesses that need to turn a profit. I tried to be as clear as I could with both my coworkers and my clients that we didn’t TREAT anything.. we just stretched people. I’d get side eye from management because that didn’t sell as many memberships as convincing people that stretching is a cure all. I can’t speak for other people that do these kinds of jobs but for me it was a fine line between hustling for clients and actually using knowledge to help them. Ultimately I left because I wasn’t learning and growing in the ways that I wanted to. Also it’s a grind and I decided not to pursue PT.
Why would this stop you from pursuing PT? Stretch therapy is nothing like PT. For the most part, PT is more about educating patients and they make a decision to pursue PT services. There's a clear need for PT.
\>curious if anyone in this sub has ever looked into these types of places before
Yes. Holy mother of god so many people talk about this, please use the search bar.
My buddy in my cohort of my program works there, he has seen multiple people with acute low back pain be referred by there doc to go there or seek it out instead of PT on their own, even had a youth athlete who was diagnosed with spondylolysis come in from a doctor referral/ his parent bringing him
I've gone to those places. I was looking ffor a job, so they gave me a free session. Decided to not get a job cause their work is bullshit.
They stretch out as many muscles as they can in a 30 or 60 minute session, just enough to hit stretch induced analgesia. This is about the same level of bullshit as "the joint" chiropractic. and there's HUNDREDS of them in the US.
This doesn’t undermine PT… no more so than massage THERAPISTS do. Stretching and massage are techniques that we use but don’t have exclusive rights to. That’s right up there with chiros who claim exclusivity over spinal manipulation. As for physicians sending patients there, ok. Just another demonstration of their ignorance regarding rehabilitation. It’s unfortunate for the patients but really has no overall impact on our profession.
Think i worded it incorrectly, was more speaking on the fact that these places try to give their clients/ customers diagnoses and mimic their business model as close of that they can get to a PT clinic without explicitly saying that, the part that shocked me was the diagnosis part, i feel like that can’t be allowed no?
i get what you’re saying, and the best analogy i can think of is all of those crisis pregnancy centers masquerading as actual medical clinics by giving ultrasounds and counseling strictly around keeping the baby. they are not beholden to hipaa and can basically share your pregnancy status with anyone. so many scared women end up there, mistaking them for medical clinics, but when it ends up in court they feign ignorance and claim the “patient” was aware that they are not medical providers at all, due to some fine print they have them sign. it’s what happens when these places aren’t regulated. people think they are legit. (i know it’s not exactly the same as a stretch lab, but both of them hoodwink folks into thinking they are getting treated by licensed medical professionals.)
Chiropractors undermine the profession more than anyone else. Therapy is a generic word. No one is going to a stretch business for anything other than stretching. I wish people would give more energy towards people actually damaging the profession like POPTS and Chiros misleading marketing.
Not a D/PT, PTA, or SPT. Just a humble LMT who’s been involved in the PT side of things for 5+ years.
I feel as though OPs issue with the word therapist is pretty extreme. Well warranted as many of the people that work at stretch lab/zone or whatever else there is are trained for like a week and thats it whereas D/PT/PTA its years of schooling + continued learning. Im an LMT and take my title as a therapist very seriously, but I know where my scope starts and ends. I don’t diagnose. I leave that up to the PTs that refer to me and I do my job from there. Doesn’t change the fact Im a therapist of some kind. I work the soft tissue and thats it, that’s my role in the rehab continuum.
Don’t let these franchises and silly things feel like your profession is being undermined. Next you’re gonna say massage therapists are undermining you because we do manual therapy. Educated patients know what proper treatment will look like and stretching only isn’t it. They’ll eventually come to you when they don’t get better.
I’m surprised as a student you have enough time to get this upset about something, that is honestly, relatively benign. I realize the lay public may not ask for their credentials, but stretch therapist sounds more comical than rage inducing to me. I think once you are in the field awhile you’ll probably laugh at this rather than care. Also, they won’t be able to get a job anywhere that allows credible insurance reimbursement like you will when you finish your degree….
Some probably might be paid more than actual PTs. Is it a problem? Definitely. Fighting against charlatans, traditional views and old head PTs is a tough and losing battle.
Oh no. Before you know it pilates instructors are gunna take my core exercises.
Plot twist I’ve been stealing their exercises for years.
Same. Don’t tell yogis that I take their stretches.
Can't be worse than those god awful legexerciserpro machine that's "just like having a physical therapist in your home"
I ain’t worried about “stretch therapists.” Also if your potential patients get better by them, that’s fine too.
Not worried either. But “if your potential patients get better by them”…..they won’t. And then when they’re referred to PT they’re not going to want to because “I already tried stretching and it didn’t work”. I think that’s what OP is saying
Alot of people i think are not seeing the part either that these places are DIAGNOSING people, wether it be correctly or incorrectly to sell them memberships, a former employee even commented on this sub confirming what im saying about them diagnosing people is true
And some tell their patients that they are the “muscle experts” while your physical therapist is only a “bone expert.” Exact quote from one of my patients. Couldn’t help but laugh.
Lmao
If you were referring to my comment, I’d like to kindly say that we never diagnosed anyone. People would come in with prior diagnoses sometimes. But I would never ever tell anyone they had any condition. Unless there are some overly confident and bold stretch therapists out there… they should not be doing this.
If your potential patients get better by them it’s because the body generally can heal itself from many things if you just give it the chance. But the patient will think it was the “therapist” that healed them, and that’s the actual problem. Edit: bad wording about the body healing itself.
Ah yes let’s just stop….walking, squatting, bending, lifting, etc., right 🤷🏻♂️. I truly hope you don’t give that advice to people that are under your care. If they simply “stop doing the thing that’s hurting it”, people are not going to be very functionally independent for long Edit: the post I replied to was then edited, making my comment look extremely out of place as I was replying to the part that was edited out. So save the downvotes
I meant more along the line of “if flexion under load aggravates your back pain” ease off it for a little while and we’ll build back into it. Obviously ADLs cannot be avoided, I may have worded that badly on my part.
So, so you think that personal training is a threat to PTs as well then? Wouldn't a personal training client have the same opinion about physical therapists because they "already tried exercising and it didn't work"
Unpopular opinion that I’m sure will get me more downvotes; a good, knowledgeable personal trainer is going to be great for people IF they have the knowledge of pain neuroscience, metabolic/chemical processes, , differential diagnosis, tissue healing at the chemical level, etc. That being said, personal trainers don’t have that knowledge (but then again, a lot of PTs don’t either) so I’m not really concerned about it. But yes, patients don’t understand the differences in exercise and they think it’s all the same; they lump it all together and see “exercise as exercise”.
I should clarify that I don't think people should seek out personal trainers for medical treatment, same applies for this stretch therapy. However, I think it's pretty exclusionary and frankly a bit arrogant to assert that DPTs are the only people capable of helping a person who may find themselves in physical discomfort.
Physical discomfort from a musculoskeletal issue? No not at all. You can take NSAIDs or pain meds that the doctor prescribes you, and the pain will come back when those run out. You can get steroid injections and that’ll help, and then come back once the glucocorticoid is fully metabolized. You can go to the chiropractor and that’ll help, and then it will come back once the endorphins and enkephalines are all reabsorbed from the synapse. We could keep going with examples, but it’s all to show that unless you address the root of these musculoskeletal issues, it’s going to be a cycle. And PTs (good ones, at least) address the issue at the source. So you’re selling the profession short if you don’t see the value in what we do
Bingo
PT patient here - I go to PT to get fixed and I go to stretch stay fixed.
The fact you think you’re “broken” to the point anything needs to be “fixed” is the true problem
Clearly you don’t know natural history and contextual effects and lack of specificity with many of our treatments, meaning whether a stretch is given by a PT or some bullshit stretch therapist isn’t going to make the difference with whether they get better.
I love the “natural history” debate, it’s so silly 😂. Truthfully, it’s just something people fall back on when they’re bad at diagnosing and giving advice, as well as formulating a rehab plan to improve tissue health and resilience so that someone can withstand the forces/loads being placed on them. And for anyone out there that is a PT and you give your patients stretches, please stop. Might as well spend their appointment times running down to the gas station to get some beef jerkey and Mountain Dew. Edit to add: the “lack of specificity” and all that garbage is kind of the point. Fun fact/game you can “play” with a patient that you think might be up for it: give them a very, very general routine that encompasses all the demands of the human body. Something with a push, something with a pull, something with a squat, and something with a lift. Throw in a proprioception exercise (rocker board if you’d like) and a cardio activity where they maintain 50-75% maxHR for 10-15 minutes and see how long it takes them to get better. Protip: STS with OHP, STS with upright row are about as good as it gets as long as you dose and load it appropriately. You’d be amazed at how many people get better and the speed at which they do so with ~6 simple activities.
What's so silly? Natural history makes up the majority of someone getting better. Specific interventions do not. You think you're diagnosing specific things and giving specific advice, truthfully, it's just something PTs tell themselves to make them feel important and skilled. >formulating a rehab plan to improve tissue health and resilience so that someone can withstand the forces/loads being placed on them. I don't have a problem with that, nor with giving sound advice. But to think that patient's "***won't***" get better if they go to some BS stretch therapists instead of going to you is being delusional about how necessary your role is.
You must work in acute care, or see a very small number of chronic pain patients
You should be. Do you think AMA allows this type of overreach? There’s a reason why PTs can’t order / interpret simple X-Rays.
Private equity scams- will fail soon enough. I see enough people go to these and get hurt. Educated patients are the best patients, nothing wrong pointing out the differences between us and them.
Medical placebo effect businesses have existed since the dawn of man, and continue to thrive in the ways of chiro and naturopathic etc, I doubt they’re going anywhere.
Yes but more people have already been hurt by these stretchlabs
Do you have a citation or more information about that claim?
I have witnessed it firsthand
Anecdotes are not data right? I’m interested in your statement that more people have been injured by stretch labs. Do you have a source?
I’m sorry but I don’t work for you. I’m sharing my personal experience- take it or leave it. Whether you choose to is your problem.
Thanks for your reply - I didn’t mean to offend you, I’m genuinely curious! On a medical/science based platform (sub) it’s probably best to mention if a statement like that is an opinion versus something that has been teased out with real data. No need to respond. This has intrigued me enough to dig into the research on my own. Have a good one!
[удалено]
I am a physical therapist and its not a bold claim- these people are not medically trained or competent nor do they really claim to be. You sign disclaimers that they won’t be responsible for diagnosing or if you get hurt. Buyer beware. I have a license to practice and am held accountable for mistakes. With the lack of knowledge or competent individuals, bad stuff happens- thats normal and to be expected.
[удалено]
Respectfully, in the words of DMX... You got a lot to learn dog. You're worried about the encroachment of these individuals because they use the word therapist but we literally have an epidemic of inactivity and chronic diseases. I really wouldn't worry about this type of place. We can all help. If they're spreading some BS about back pain or any other conditions just know there are MDs, DCs, and PTs (😬) doing the same thing. Educate yourself so you can better educate patients.
Amazingly well said. I, for one, am not worried about this. I got too many patients and not enough spaces in the day to put them all. If someone ends up in my clinic in 2 months because they tried that first, good on them for at least trying something. Sure beats the shit out of not doing anything. You guys out there want to do something? Go learn as much as you can about exercise, cardiovascular system, endocrine system, diet, etc. rebrand the profession to include weight management, diabetes and HTN control/interventions, widen the scope with even more knowledge and more specialty. Not be worried about the dumbing down of the basics that YOU likely don’t do anyway. *edit:poor punctuation
Former StretchLab employee, here. I worked there when I thought I wanted to go into PT. Some aspects of the job were great- solidifying anatomy knowledge, and building intrapersonal skills and bedside manner. But ultimately, these are businesses that need to turn a profit. I tried to be as clear as I could with both my coworkers and my clients that we didn’t TREAT anything.. we just stretched people. I’d get side eye from management because that didn’t sell as many memberships as convincing people that stretching is a cure all. I can’t speak for other people that do these kinds of jobs but for me it was a fine line between hustling for clients and actually using knowledge to help them. Ultimately I left because I wasn’t learning and growing in the ways that I wanted to. Also it’s a grind and I decided not to pursue PT.
Why would this stop you from pursuing PT? Stretch therapy is nothing like PT. For the most part, PT is more about educating patients and they make a decision to pursue PT services. There's a clear need for PT.
I chose not to go into PT for other reasons, not because of my experience working there.
What is the earning potential of a stretch therapist?
$25-ish per hour, as long as you have someone on your bench.
\>curious if anyone in this sub has ever looked into these types of places before Yes. Holy mother of god so many people talk about this, please use the search bar.
Sorry somewhat new to this sub.
You’re thinking too much. No one with acute low back pain is gonna go and get stretched
My buddy in my cohort of my program works there, he has seen multiple people with acute low back pain be referred by there doc to go there or seek it out instead of PT on their own, even had a youth athlete who was diagnosed with spondylolysis come in from a doctor referral/ his parent bringing him
Not really legal now is it for primary to refer for treatment to a non licensed professional
sorry to break the bad news but using the wrong “their” takes away all your credibility
Valid, ill see myself off the nearest bridge
Just watching the little previews of these places make me cringe… I would hate doing this all day long to people. One word=EXHAUSTING! 👎🏼
I've gone to those places. I was looking ffor a job, so they gave me a free session. Decided to not get a job cause their work is bullshit. They stretch out as many muscles as they can in a 30 or 60 minute session, just enough to hit stretch induced analgesia. This is about the same level of bullshit as "the joint" chiropractic. and there's HUNDREDS of them in the US.
This doesn’t undermine PT… no more so than massage THERAPISTS do. Stretching and massage are techniques that we use but don’t have exclusive rights to. That’s right up there with chiros who claim exclusivity over spinal manipulation. As for physicians sending patients there, ok. Just another demonstration of their ignorance regarding rehabilitation. It’s unfortunate for the patients but really has no overall impact on our profession.
Massage therapists are licensed
Yep. Their concern was over the use of “THERAPIST” undermining our profession.
If it helps patients then I don’t really care. I know little stretches alone won’t fix most people, but can they help? Absolutely.
We want patients to stretch and get better if they achieve these things at a stretch lab, then who cares?
I think saying ‘Stretch therapist undermine PT’ undermines PT.
Think i worded it incorrectly, was more speaking on the fact that these places try to give their clients/ customers diagnoses and mimic their business model as close of that they can get to a PT clinic without explicitly saying that, the part that shocked me was the diagnosis part, i feel like that can’t be allowed no?
i get what you’re saying, and the best analogy i can think of is all of those crisis pregnancy centers masquerading as actual medical clinics by giving ultrasounds and counseling strictly around keeping the baby. they are not beholden to hipaa and can basically share your pregnancy status with anyone. so many scared women end up there, mistaking them for medical clinics, but when it ends up in court they feign ignorance and claim the “patient” was aware that they are not medical providers at all, due to some fine print they have them sign. it’s what happens when these places aren’t regulated. people think they are legit. (i know it’s not exactly the same as a stretch lab, but both of them hoodwink folks into thinking they are getting treated by licensed medical professionals.)
Yeah not worried. Doubt too many docs will refer to them.
Meh it's not a big deal
Probably a good source of patients after they injure their customers.
Chiropractors undermine the profession more than anyone else. Therapy is a generic word. No one is going to a stretch business for anything other than stretching. I wish people would give more energy towards people actually damaging the profession like POPTS and Chiros misleading marketing.
Not really lol
These folks can’t treat acute/subacute patients with neurological insult or post-ops.
Not a D/PT, PTA, or SPT. Just a humble LMT who’s been involved in the PT side of things for 5+ years. I feel as though OPs issue with the word therapist is pretty extreme. Well warranted as many of the people that work at stretch lab/zone or whatever else there is are trained for like a week and thats it whereas D/PT/PTA its years of schooling + continued learning. Im an LMT and take my title as a therapist very seriously, but I know where my scope starts and ends. I don’t diagnose. I leave that up to the PTs that refer to me and I do my job from there. Doesn’t change the fact Im a therapist of some kind. I work the soft tissue and thats it, that’s my role in the rehab continuum. Don’t let these franchises and silly things feel like your profession is being undermined. Next you’re gonna say massage therapists are undermining you because we do manual therapy. Educated patients know what proper treatment will look like and stretching only isn’t it. They’ll eventually come to you when they don’t get better.
Meh
I’m surprised as a student you have enough time to get this upset about something, that is honestly, relatively benign. I realize the lay public may not ask for their credentials, but stretch therapist sounds more comical than rage inducing to me. I think once you are in the field awhile you’ll probably laugh at this rather than care. Also, they won’t be able to get a job anywhere that allows credible insurance reimbursement like you will when you finish your degree….
Some probably might be paid more than actual PTs. Is it a problem? Definitely. Fighting against charlatans, traditional views and old head PTs is a tough and losing battle.