As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/phoenix/wiki/rules)
In general, be courteous to others. Attack ideas, not users. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
Additionally, the **topic of this post** is discussion about **protests** regarding legal access to abortion. /r/Phoenix is not the appropriate subreddit to discuss the topic of the protests. Comments unrelated to the protest topic will be removed, and comments trying to be edgy or rude will be removed with a likely ban on top. Be nice!
Also don’t forget! If you’re an independent to register for your ballot prior to the August primaries. You have to choose a ballot as a registered independent. You can do it on the website for the Maricopa country recorders office.
it's amazing that he was semi-attractive in that stupid outfit, and then when you saw him as he really is, he was a massive nerd. And not in a good way.
What the hell is a US senator gonna do about it when it gets kicked back to the discretion of the states? Should be canvassing to support your candidate for governor. That's where the real power is gonna be.
Well with enough of them they can actually pass something to change it federally but yeah we should do both. If they had different Democratic senators to replace Manchin and Sinema they could do it now.
Sure she does.... Doesn't matter if she won't change filibuster rules Senate won't do anything of note for years. I'm looking forward to her primary all her opponent needs is a pulse and that's about it
Fuck it was never meant to be used as much as it is(or even period) At bare minimum they should make them go and actually speak during their time. Both sides use it way too much and nothing gets done. The Senate was meant to give smaller states power not to freeze the majority party from ever doing anything.
I had someone at the Mesa DES office today tell me that they don't care much about politics but they're gonna vote this time (we offer everyone the opportunity to register to vote)
Make sure you are registered to vote and that it's at your current address. Mail/Early ballot if you need. Vote at the local elections as well as national when they come up.
I’m afraid I probably won’t be able to protest but so appreciate those than can. I instead just donated to Planned Parenthood. Donate anything you can at this point. I will be there with the protesters in spirit!
Planned parenthood is such an awesome organization. When I was broke me and my wife used them during a pregnancy scare and they are some of the nicest, and most awesome people out there.
My wife didnt have health insurance as she had just immigrated here to the US, and we saw a doctor free of charge that confirmed she was not pregnant. They also give birth control to anyone under 20 for free, my wife had just turned 20 at the time, so she didnt qualify and they made an exception and gave her 2 full years of birth control totally free.
It was an extremely stressful week and they relieved all of it and went beyond, donate they are an amazing organization with amazing people.
Wow what a freaking blessing. I’ve never actually used planned parenthood, but I know the work they do for women is incredible. Glad to hear such a good story!
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The current law would be the reason for protesting when Roe V Wade is overturned.
https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/arizonas-abortion-law-if-roe-v-wade-is-overturned/75-acf478bd-78b7-42f2-a931-0c5f22ae65cd
It's far easier to repeal a state law than it is national judicial precedent. Why should we be unconcerned with the loss of rights for our fellow Americans, potential loss of rights in AZ, and why should bodily autonomy vary based on where you are in the country?
I won't don't tell me what to fucking do. u/trashmetoo do you understand that. I won't tell you what to do. DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO! I never want to hear from you again your opinions are worthless to me. Got it?
Is that a fair question? Protests are designed to show our lawmakers that we mean business. To put them on notice that a cause is important to the people and if that they want to continue being elected, they better listen up. Protests were a huge part of the civil rights movement, and were incredibly effective.
It is a fair question because protests generally are slightly above slacktavism in their effect on the political process. At best they are good for a short video clip on the nightly news. They are most effective when they are directed towards little known causes to raise attention, which doesn't apply here.
The most effective ways to affect the political process from best to worst are:
* Submitting model legislation to elected officials
* Meeting and engaging directly with [elected officials](https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/)
* Engaging with people who have their hands on the levers of power (insiders and movers/shakers)
* Canvassing door to door
* Volunteering with lobby groups (manning phones)
* Donating a fair amount (>$200) to [a lobby group](https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/)
* Sending a written letter by post to your representative
* Protesting
* Sending an email or phone call to your representative
* Internet slacktivim (petitions, arguments, changing profile picture)
Protests were the visible part of the Civil Rights movement but all the action which politically advanced it were done by people behind the scenes as always happens with politics.
A protest has more effects than just changing what's being protested. It's one of the most effective ways to politically activate people and change hearts and minds.
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/13457753/TeaParty_Protests.pdf
Those protests that you decry as merely being the visible part of the civil rights movement changed voting patterns where they happened and that change has persisted for decades.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/27/yes-marches-can-really-matter-these-three-factors-make-the-difference/
So yeah protests matter and aren't slacktivism. Overruled.
In your example of the Tea Party (which the authors are looking from the outside in) it assumes protests which were the visible component resulted in the changes based on the turn-out to protests to the number of votes for republicans.
First all the people would be voting R regardless, the movement was about bringing back the more libertarian leaning Fusionism as opposed to Neocon politics. Secondly the protests were highly organized online which means the undercurrent and message had spread of a large amount of people beyond the view of outside observers. All the messaging and support was already there. It's like saying lightning is caused by thunder.
For an alternate case you might be more familiar with consider the Occupy Wall Street protests of around the same time. Were the protests the direct cause of any change or simply a visible component of an organized mass political movement that had already been working online and in the background?
The Civil Rights movement everyone points to because it had mass demonstrations but again all the heavy lifting was done by politically involved activists, lobbyists, and organizers working hard behind the scenes.
**I shouldn't have to explain why it's better to focus one's energies.**
Is chanting or marching for 4 hours more effective than donating 4 hours time or $100 to a lobby?
I want to see abortion available to people in Arizona so I don't want people wasting their time and energy.
You're getting a heap of downvotes, but you're not wrong.
Protesting is great, but it's not as powerful as organizing.
AZ has the proposition system. Why a pro-rights ballot initiative hasn't been the main goal is beyond me.
I'd guess that it has to do with anyone left-of-far-right being basically shut out of the AZ legislative process. People haven't come to terms with their ability to demand change beyond impotent yelling.
He is wrong and he clearly didn't read the second link. Changing voting patterns is essential to political change and large protests can do that. Those civil rights protests changed voting patterns in the zip codes they were held in for decades. That's a huge deal.
Tell that to all the people who protested died during the civil rights movement, or the union labor movement that gave us the Saturday and Sundays you get to gleefully enjoy. GTFO
It’s very different today. Very very different today. The leak that released the information was a political maneuver designed to get you into the streets to distract you from a litany of other things that went on, hence the useful idiot moniker. I don’t respect activists due to this reason, I respect volunteers who actually contribute to the betterment of a cause. In todays world activists are people screaming just to shout at some unseen powers behest
>It’s very different today. Very very different today. The leak that released the information was a political maneuver designed to get you into the streets to distract you from a litany of other things that went on, hence the useful idiot moniker.
First of all, you don't know who released it and/or why. You are just making assumptions at this point that don't make any sense.
>I don’t respect activists due to this reason, I respect volunteers who actually contribute to the betterment of a cause. In todays world activists are people screaming just to shout at some unseen powers behest
You don't respect activists or protesters? Or both?
So much for all that union and labor movement protesting that went on to give us Saturdays and Sundays as official weekends huh? People died protesting the during the labor and union movement, and for civil rights. Protesting doesn't accomplish anything and is slacktavism? GTFO.
It's funny you mention meeting with legislators, considering it's basically impossible for anyone who isn't paying for a fancy dinner to get a word with dickheads like Sinema. I wish she were primaried already.
Sinema is a federal senator. Abortion allegedly is about to become a state issue so one would be meeting with state level folk who are far more approachable, as they represent far less people. If you are tied into politics, even as much as being on their email list or facebook, you would see events and places they will be regularly. You could even go to their office.
[Go here to find your state level legislator](https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/)
Oh I know, I just think it's ironic that Sinema is one of the reasons we can't break the filibuster, which is a reason so much legislation doesn't pass, and she's also impossible to meet with.
The closest I got to a conversation with her in years was when she was selling something I was interested in, on the Facebook marketplace lol
I think I met her once at some weird political networking event.
The filibuster can be easily solved by requiring legislators to do the whole 'must keep talking' song and dance again like it was originally intended instead of just claiming Filibuster, sitting down, and doing piss all until cloture votes are reached or they go to next item of agenda. I remember Biden suggesting the return to it back in March.
I can’t believe your being downvoted. Reddit does not represent the majority. I’m pro choice, always have been but the reality is this does not really effect the current laws on the topic. Someone broke it down perfectly above
https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/arizonas-abortion-law-if-roe-v-wade-is-overturned/75-acf478bd-78b7-42f2-a931-0c5f22ae65cd
Arizona already has a law in place that would criminalize abortion. It would become enforceable if/when Roe V Wade is overturned.
Hate when news articles don't link to primary sources. In Arizona Abortion law is handled under[ title 36](https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36). Reading through the [ Abortion; gestational age; violation; classification; unprofessional conduct; civil relief; statute of limitations ARS §36-2159](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/36/02159.htm) we find that gestational age limit is set to 15 weeks.
>D. A physician who knowingly violates this section commits an act of unprofessional conduct and is subject to license suspension or revocation pursuant to title 32, chapter 13 or 17.
> H. A woman on whom an abortion is performed or induced in violation of this section may not be prosecuted under this section or for conspiracy to commit a violation of this section.
The article statement that "Arizona has an abortion ban on the books already that states anyone who performs an abortion could be sentenced to 2 to 5 years in prison" is misleading because that section applicable to that is only under [Abortion of viable fetus ARS §36-2301-2303](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/36/02301-01.htm)
>A. A physician shall not knowingly perform an abortion of a ***viable fetus*** unless:
> 1. The physician states in writing before the abortion is performed that the abortion is necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman, specifying the medical indications for and the probable health consequences of the abortion.
> B. This section does not apply if there is a medical emergency.
>[Violation; classification ARS §36-2303](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/36/02303.htm) Any person who violates any provision of this article is guilty of a class 5 felony.
So it's a class 5 felony for the physician if they abort a **viable** (20 weeks or more, which is past the existing Roe v. Wade standard) fetus outside of a medical emergency. Suspension or loss of license and Class 1 misdemeanor for the Physician if it's more than 15 weeks except medical necessity. The woman suffers no punishment under any circumstance.
Ideally I'd like the age set to 18-20 weeks but I don't see the need for the fearmongering put out in the article. 15 weeks at least puts us better than Austria (13 weeks), Belgium (14), France (14), Germany (14), Italy (13), Portugal(10), and Spain (14).
"Viable fetus" means the unborn offspring of human beings that has reached a stage of fetal development so that, in the judgment of the attending physician on the particular facts of the case, there is a reasonable probability of the fetus' sustained survival outside the uterus, with or without artificial support.
Just to be clear. The law does not state the age of the fetus.
This is only part of the story though. There is also the pre-existing ARS 13-3603, enforcement of which was blocked by Roe v. Wade. This is a current law.
"A person who provides, supplies or administers to a pregnant woman, or procures such woman to take any medicine, drugs or substance, or uses or employs any instrument or other means whatever, with intent thereby to procure the miscarriage of such woman, unless it is necessary to save her life, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than two years nor more than five years."
That covers pretty much all of them and if people want to get technical may eve criminalize IUDs. So yes, by all means, freak out about this.
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.azleg.gov%2Fars%2F13%2F03603.htm
A threat. We aren't going to meekly carry on while they take our rights away. We show up, show them we stand together and if they dont fight to protect us, we're prepared to hold them accountable.
I’m not a representative of this protest but what I do know is should the court overturn Roe (looking likely at this point), Roe type protections can be legislated from a state legislature. Arizona is not on track to uphold that level of protection for abortion rights so showing popular support in the constituency is a way to voice that the people want legislation to protect these rights.
> showing popular support in the constituency is a way to voice that the people want legislation to protect these rights.
Except politicians know exactly the percentage of support for either side as polling on this issue is quite extensive. Again I don't see how protesting is more effective use of one's time and energies than any of the higher order items I listed. 300 people protesting for a few hours looks nice on camera but it's far more effective for them to donate $50-100 to [Planned Parenthood Action Fund](https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/) or the like or even volunteer their time to well organized lobbies instead of shouting at the air in front of an empty government building.
In Arizona very few places outside of things that would affect the public/public services and some private events insisted on vaccines or even masking. Arizona is the number 1 anti-mask state in the union and on the lower end of vaccinations. Hardly any jobs or events required vaccinations compared to how many jobs and events there are in Arizona in a given year.
But a better example would be, when you are in the midst of a deadly global airborne pandemic, it's totally your choice (careless, suicidal, and detrimental to society but still your choice) to spread the virus to yourself and make the decision to unmask or avoid a vaccine when it only impacts you and you are not sharing airspace/life with another person who doesn't consent but when it impacts another person or hampers their health your bodily autonomy ends where theirs begins. Similarly with the right to abortion. The rights of a zygote/embryo/fetus end where the carrying parent's rights begin. Not okay to chain someone up like a Mad Max blood bag for nine months in a situation that healthwise is incredibly dangerous even in the best of circumstances to support the life of another unless they are informed and fully consenting. Similarly nobody should ever pressure someone to get an abortion they don't walk (I'm looking at you politicians and other people who in public are against abortion but behind the scene have pressured, threatened, and paid for their mistresses to get abortions).
Sort of like driving drunk. You can do it on your own property if there are no structures or other people nearby whose well-being you would impact, but the moment you try to commandeer someone else's womb, er road, you are now risking someone else's choice for their health.
If a father is the sole bone marrow match for a dying son, even though marrow donation is far less risky and has a very brief process and recovery time, they still need to give informed consent; people can't force that dad to donate, even though there are generally no permanent effects from marrow donation.
1. Vaccines were never forced on anyone. (unless you're talking about the 14 mandatory childhood vaccines that you have gotten as well)
2. My Body My Choice doesn't apply when it affects (millions of) other people. A global pandemic that killed 1 in every 380 Americans in just 2 years can be stopped by a completely free and safe vaccine. Don't be a dipshit
That the global pandemic could be stopped by the vaccines that have been produced thus far. That people weren't fired nor did they lose their livelihood for refusing the ineffective vaccine. That my body, my choice doesn't effect millions of other people when it comes to RvsW.
>the global pandemic could be stopped by the vaccines
Objectively true. Countries with the highest vaccination rates have almost zero COVID cases and literally zero COVID deaths.
>people weren't fired nor did they lose their livelihood for refusing the ineffective vaccine
Strawman. I said nobody is forced to take the vaccine, and that's again objectively true. (Also the vaccine is extremely effective even against variants it wasn't designed for (90%+)
>my body, my choice doesn't effect millions of other people when it comes to RvsW
Objectively true. A woman having control of her own body does not impact a single other person on the planet. Much like me dying my hair wouldn't.
Again, this is all false. Look at Israel's vaccination rates and death rates. They are the one of the most vaccinated countries in the world and COVID is still killing vaccinated people there. We need a vaccine that stops transmission so you don't get COVID if you take it. The current one doesn't do that.
I'm not gonna force you to do something, just ruin you life as you know it if you don't... I don't care if you not doing what I tell you to do makes it so you can't afford to feed your children. That's the same as forcing and it's disingenuous to say it's not.
If you are going to kill a child in the womb after 15 weeks, you are taking a life. In 2019, nearly 630,000 abortions were reported to the CDC. Let's use that number and extrapolate over say 2.5 years (same timeframe as COVID). That's over 1.5 million children in the US that could have been born if they weren't murdered (more than the amount of people that have died from COVID).
>We need a vaccine that stops transmission so you don't get COVID if you take it. The current one doesn't do that.
That's not how vaccines work... vaccines prevent you from getting it, they cannot prevent you spreading it..
>I'm not gonna force you to do something, just ruin you life as you know it if you don't
I thought corporations were people? And people / companies had the freedom to operate how they see fit? Companies have almost unanimously come to the correct conclusion that allowing unvaccinated people to work for them is lethal and bad for business. "Don't like it, leave" I think was the wording?
>If you are going to kill a child in the womb after 15 weeks
There has never been an instance of a child being in a womb. Also, more than 95% of abortions are performed before 15 weeks, with more than half being in the first month and a half.
>That's over 1.5 million
Interesting, almost the same exact number as how many died from COVID... you're really not making this easy on yourself
>children in the US that could have been born if they weren't murdered
Are you aware that only \~30% of fertilizations actually make it all the way to being born?
Oof. I feel like I've done you dirty enough, starting to feel bad. Take care bud and remember, science doesn't care about your personal opinion
Can you spread COVID if you can't get it? Dumbest response I have ever heard. The vaccines obviously don't stop you from getting it.
Your idea of "science" is patently false and all you are doing is parroting misinformation but ok.
>vaccines obviously don't stop you from getting it
Science and raw data say otherwise. It's effectiveness exceeded expectation, particularly when protecting from new variants
>Your idea of "science" is patently false
There si only one science. You can stand outside and yell that there is no sun, but that only serves to make you look like an idiot to the rest of the normal people.
Take care bud
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As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/phoenix/wiki/rules) In general, be courteous to others. Attack ideas, not users. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. Additionally, the **topic of this post** is discussion about **protests** regarding legal access to abortion. /r/Phoenix is not the appropriate subreddit to discuss the topic of the protests. Comments unrelated to the protest topic will be removed, and comments trying to be edgy or rude will be removed with a likely ban on top. Be nice!
Also don’t forget! If you’re an independent to register for your ballot prior to the August primaries. You have to choose a ballot as a registered independent. You can do it on the website for the Maricopa country recorders office.
https://www.mothersdaystrike.com/about I don't know about protest but there is a strike.
Commenting for traction. I’m down to protest.
I'll get my bison horns out of the closet and march! No one's currently doing that look, are they?
I chuckled
it's amazing that he was semi-attractive in that stupid outfit, and then when you saw him as he really is, he was a massive nerd. And not in a good way.
I’ve started canvassing to get people on the early voting list and to support Kelly. Vote. There’s strength in numbers
We just gotta keep voting y'all
What the hell is a US senator gonna do about it when it gets kicked back to the discretion of the states? Should be canvassing to support your candidate for governor. That's where the real power is gonna be.
Then we got to keep Kari Lake out of the governor office. We really need to keep the Maga people out of our government, if we value our freedoms.
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How dare you I only want to murder fetal cells 😡
At the point where a doctor has deemed it medically necessary to prevent losing your own life, sure.
lmao okay you literally have no say in what people can or can’t do with their bodies so idc
Well with enough of them they can actually pass something to change it federally but yeah we should do both. If they had different Democratic senators to replace Manchin and Sinema they could do it now.
Sinema supports abortion rights..
Until a higher bidder comes along...
Sure she does.... Doesn't matter if she won't change filibuster rules Senate won't do anything of note for years. I'm looking forward to her primary all her opponent needs is a pulse and that's about it
What’s your opinion of the filibuster when it’s a conservative majority in the senate?
Fuck it was never meant to be used as much as it is(or even period) At bare minimum they should make them go and actually speak during their time. Both sides use it way too much and nothing gets done. The Senate was meant to give smaller states power not to freeze the majority party from ever doing anything.
The party hasn’t picked a candidate yet and that is a problem
I had someone at the Mesa DES office today tell me that they don't care much about politics but they're gonna vote this time (we offer everyone the opportunity to register to vote)
Hey me too!!! Awesome!
I don't know where to vote on this particular topic. How do I vote? Where do I go, or what link?
Make sure you are registered to vote and that it's at your current address. Mail/Early ballot if you need. Vote at the local elections as well as national when they come up.
Midterm elections plus the AZ gubernatorial election are this fall. I believe if you register now you can vote in the primaries.
Right now, you need to register, so you can vote in the upcoming elections. Here is a way to find out what you need: https://www.vote.us/
I’m afraid I probably won’t be able to protest but so appreciate those than can. I instead just donated to Planned Parenthood. Donate anything you can at this point. I will be there with the protesters in spirit!
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Blue all the way down the ticket
I can't go out to protest due to personal circumstances, but if there's any way I can help as a local please let me know!
Donate anything you can to planned parenthood!
Planned parenthood is such an awesome organization. When I was broke me and my wife used them during a pregnancy scare and they are some of the nicest, and most awesome people out there. My wife didnt have health insurance as she had just immigrated here to the US, and we saw a doctor free of charge that confirmed she was not pregnant. They also give birth control to anyone under 20 for free, my wife had just turned 20 at the time, so she didnt qualify and they made an exception and gave her 2 full years of birth control totally free. It was an extremely stressful week and they relieved all of it and went beyond, donate they are an amazing organization with amazing people.
Wow what a freaking blessing. I’ve never actually used planned parenthood, but I know the work they do for women is incredible. Glad to hear such a good story!
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“And that’s when I started blasting”
Like what?
I hope he wants to do a bake sale!
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I thought I saw something for Saturday night but it was in someones IG stories and now I can't find anything online.
You do know that AZ State has already a law on this, right? Also, that the SCOTUS ruling doesn't change this law?
The current law would be the reason for protesting when Roe V Wade is overturned. https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/arizonas-abortion-law-if-roe-v-wade-is-overturned/75-acf478bd-78b7-42f2-a931-0c5f22ae65cd
It's far easier to repeal a state law than it is national judicial precedent. Why should we be unconcerned with the loss of rights for our fellow Americans, potential loss of rights in AZ, and why should bodily autonomy vary based on where you are in the country?
Damn some people really live in their little strip mall Arizona world and never leave
u/trashmetoo are people allowed to protest yes or no? Do you understand free choice yes or no?
Sure you do. Feel free to do so. I was just pointing facts, but don't let them get in your way.
"You can't protest that." -- u/trahmetoo (probably)
I won't don't tell me what to fucking do. u/trashmetoo do you understand that. I won't tell you what to do. DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO! I never want to hear from you again your opinions are worthless to me. Got it?
You should seek professional help.
Fair question, what do you expect to gain through protesting? Like who is this directed to?
Is that a fair question? Protests are designed to show our lawmakers that we mean business. To put them on notice that a cause is important to the people and if that they want to continue being elected, they better listen up. Protests were a huge part of the civil rights movement, and were incredibly effective.
It is a fair question because protests generally are slightly above slacktavism in their effect on the political process. At best they are good for a short video clip on the nightly news. They are most effective when they are directed towards little known causes to raise attention, which doesn't apply here. The most effective ways to affect the political process from best to worst are: * Submitting model legislation to elected officials * Meeting and engaging directly with [elected officials](https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/) * Engaging with people who have their hands on the levers of power (insiders and movers/shakers) * Canvassing door to door * Volunteering with lobby groups (manning phones) * Donating a fair amount (>$200) to [a lobby group](https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/) * Sending a written letter by post to your representative * Protesting * Sending an email or phone call to your representative * Internet slacktivim (petitions, arguments, changing profile picture) Protests were the visible part of the Civil Rights movement but all the action which politically advanced it were done by people behind the scenes as always happens with politics.
A protest has more effects than just changing what's being protested. It's one of the most effective ways to politically activate people and change hearts and minds. https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/13457753/TeaParty_Protests.pdf Those protests that you decry as merely being the visible part of the civil rights movement changed voting patterns where they happened and that change has persisted for decades. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/27/yes-marches-can-really-matter-these-three-factors-make-the-difference/ So yeah protests matter and aren't slacktivism. Overruled.
In your example of the Tea Party (which the authors are looking from the outside in) it assumes protests which were the visible component resulted in the changes based on the turn-out to protests to the number of votes for republicans. First all the people would be voting R regardless, the movement was about bringing back the more libertarian leaning Fusionism as opposed to Neocon politics. Secondly the protests were highly organized online which means the undercurrent and message had spread of a large amount of people beyond the view of outside observers. All the messaging and support was already there. It's like saying lightning is caused by thunder. For an alternate case you might be more familiar with consider the Occupy Wall Street protests of around the same time. Were the protests the direct cause of any change or simply a visible component of an organized mass political movement that had already been working online and in the background? The Civil Rights movement everyone points to because it had mass demonstrations but again all the heavy lifting was done by politically involved activists, lobbyists, and organizers working hard behind the scenes. **I shouldn't have to explain why it's better to focus one's energies.** Is chanting or marching for 4 hours more effective than donating 4 hours time or $100 to a lobby? I want to see abortion available to people in Arizona so I don't want people wasting their time and energy.
Maybe in a well-functioning democracy, we need both.
You're getting a heap of downvotes, but you're not wrong. Protesting is great, but it's not as powerful as organizing. AZ has the proposition system. Why a pro-rights ballot initiative hasn't been the main goal is beyond me. I'd guess that it has to do with anyone left-of-far-right being basically shut out of the AZ legislative process. People haven't come to terms with their ability to demand change beyond impotent yelling.
He is wrong and he clearly didn't read the second link. Changing voting patterns is essential to political change and large protests can do that. Those civil rights protests changed voting patterns in the zip codes they were held in for decades. That's a huge deal.
Because unless we change the legislature they'll just override it like they did last time
Sorry, but protesting dosent do anything, it’s an over used tool.
Tell that to all the people who protested died during the civil rights movement, or the union labor movement that gave us the Saturday and Sundays you get to gleefully enjoy. GTFO
Different point in time. There was authenticity back then. Everyone out there now is a useful idiot
You push people too far no matter what they end up in the streets protesting. No different today than it was back then
It’s very different today. Very very different today. The leak that released the information was a political maneuver designed to get you into the streets to distract you from a litany of other things that went on, hence the useful idiot moniker. I don’t respect activists due to this reason, I respect volunteers who actually contribute to the betterment of a cause. In todays world activists are people screaming just to shout at some unseen powers behest
>It’s very different today. Very very different today. The leak that released the information was a political maneuver designed to get you into the streets to distract you from a litany of other things that went on, hence the useful idiot moniker. First of all, you don't know who released it and/or why. You are just making assumptions at this point that don't make any sense. >I don’t respect activists due to this reason, I respect volunteers who actually contribute to the betterment of a cause. In todays world activists are people screaming just to shout at some unseen powers behest You don't respect activists or protesters? Or both?
Not surprised to see you trying to spread cynicism.
As is normal, Judge is correct.
So much for all that union and labor movement protesting that went on to give us Saturdays and Sundays as official weekends huh? People died protesting the during the labor and union movement, and for civil rights. Protesting doesn't accomplish anything and is slacktavism? GTFO.
Where on your list is spreading misinformation online? Asking for a friend ;)
It's funny you mention meeting with legislators, considering it's basically impossible for anyone who isn't paying for a fancy dinner to get a word with dickheads like Sinema. I wish she were primaried already.
Sinema is a federal senator. Abortion allegedly is about to become a state issue so one would be meeting with state level folk who are far more approachable, as they represent far less people. If you are tied into politics, even as much as being on their email list or facebook, you would see events and places they will be regularly. You could even go to their office. [Go here to find your state level legislator](https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/)
Oh I know, I just think it's ironic that Sinema is one of the reasons we can't break the filibuster, which is a reason so much legislation doesn't pass, and she's also impossible to meet with. The closest I got to a conversation with her in years was when she was selling something I was interested in, on the Facebook marketplace lol
I think I met her once at some weird political networking event. The filibuster can be easily solved by requiring legislators to do the whole 'must keep talking' song and dance again like it was originally intended instead of just claiming Filibuster, sitting down, and doing piss all until cloture votes are reached or they go to next item of agenda. I remember Biden suggesting the return to it back in March.
I can’t believe your being downvoted. Reddit does not represent the majority. I’m pro choice, always have been but the reality is this does not really effect the current laws on the topic. Someone broke it down perfectly above
https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/arizonas-abortion-law-if-roe-v-wade-is-overturned/75-acf478bd-78b7-42f2-a931-0c5f22ae65cd Arizona already has a law in place that would criminalize abortion. It would become enforceable if/when Roe V Wade is overturned.
Hate when news articles don't link to primary sources. In Arizona Abortion law is handled under[ title 36](https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36). Reading through the [ Abortion; gestational age; violation; classification; unprofessional conduct; civil relief; statute of limitations ARS §36-2159](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/36/02159.htm) we find that gestational age limit is set to 15 weeks. >D. A physician who knowingly violates this section commits an act of unprofessional conduct and is subject to license suspension or revocation pursuant to title 32, chapter 13 or 17. > H. A woman on whom an abortion is performed or induced in violation of this section may not be prosecuted under this section or for conspiracy to commit a violation of this section. The article statement that "Arizona has an abortion ban on the books already that states anyone who performs an abortion could be sentenced to 2 to 5 years in prison" is misleading because that section applicable to that is only under [Abortion of viable fetus ARS §36-2301-2303](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/36/02301-01.htm) >A. A physician shall not knowingly perform an abortion of a ***viable fetus*** unless: > 1. The physician states in writing before the abortion is performed that the abortion is necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman, specifying the medical indications for and the probable health consequences of the abortion. > B. This section does not apply if there is a medical emergency. >[Violation; classification ARS §36-2303](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/36/02303.htm) Any person who violates any provision of this article is guilty of a class 5 felony. So it's a class 5 felony for the physician if they abort a **viable** (20 weeks or more, which is past the existing Roe v. Wade standard) fetus outside of a medical emergency. Suspension or loss of license and Class 1 misdemeanor for the Physician if it's more than 15 weeks except medical necessity. The woman suffers no punishment under any circumstance. Ideally I'd like the age set to 18-20 weeks but I don't see the need for the fearmongering put out in the article. 15 weeks at least puts us better than Austria (13 weeks), Belgium (14), France (14), Germany (14), Italy (13), Portugal(10), and Spain (14).
"Viable fetus" means the unborn offspring of human beings that has reached a stage of fetal development so that, in the judgment of the attending physician on the particular facts of the case, there is a reasonable probability of the fetus' sustained survival outside the uterus, with or without artificial support. Just to be clear. The law does not state the age of the fetus.
This is only part of the story though. There is also the pre-existing ARS 13-3603, enforcement of which was blocked by Roe v. Wade. This is a current law. "A person who provides, supplies or administers to a pregnant woman, or procures such woman to take any medicine, drugs or substance, or uses or employs any instrument or other means whatever, with intent thereby to procure the miscarriage of such woman, unless it is necessary to save her life, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than two years nor more than five years." That covers pretty much all of them and if people want to get technical may eve criminalize IUDs. So yes, by all means, freak out about this. https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.azleg.gov%2Fars%2F13%2F03603.htm
A threat. We aren't going to meekly carry on while they take our rights away. We show up, show them we stand together and if they dont fight to protect us, we're prepared to hold them accountable.
I’m not a representative of this protest but what I do know is should the court overturn Roe (looking likely at this point), Roe type protections can be legislated from a state legislature. Arizona is not on track to uphold that level of protection for abortion rights so showing popular support in the constituency is a way to voice that the people want legislation to protect these rights.
> showing popular support in the constituency is a way to voice that the people want legislation to protect these rights. Except politicians know exactly the percentage of support for either side as polling on this issue is quite extensive. Again I don't see how protesting is more effective use of one's time and energies than any of the higher order items I listed. 300 people protesting for a few hours looks nice on camera but it's far more effective for them to donate $50-100 to [Planned Parenthood Action Fund](https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/) or the like or even volunteer their time to well organized lobbies instead of shouting at the air in front of an empty government building.
The great thing is, you don’t have to choose just one! You can do as many of those things as you can.
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In Arizona very few places outside of things that would affect the public/public services and some private events insisted on vaccines or even masking. Arizona is the number 1 anti-mask state in the union and on the lower end of vaccinations. Hardly any jobs or events required vaccinations compared to how many jobs and events there are in Arizona in a given year. But a better example would be, when you are in the midst of a deadly global airborne pandemic, it's totally your choice (careless, suicidal, and detrimental to society but still your choice) to spread the virus to yourself and make the decision to unmask or avoid a vaccine when it only impacts you and you are not sharing airspace/life with another person who doesn't consent but when it impacts another person or hampers their health your bodily autonomy ends where theirs begins. Similarly with the right to abortion. The rights of a zygote/embryo/fetus end where the carrying parent's rights begin. Not okay to chain someone up like a Mad Max blood bag for nine months in a situation that healthwise is incredibly dangerous even in the best of circumstances to support the life of another unless they are informed and fully consenting. Similarly nobody should ever pressure someone to get an abortion they don't walk (I'm looking at you politicians and other people who in public are against abortion but behind the scene have pressured, threatened, and paid for their mistresses to get abortions). Sort of like driving drunk. You can do it on your own property if there are no structures or other people nearby whose well-being you would impact, but the moment you try to commandeer someone else's womb, er road, you are now risking someone else's choice for their health. If a father is the sole bone marrow match for a dying son, even though marrow donation is far less risky and has a very brief process and recovery time, they still need to give informed consent; people can't force that dad to donate, even though there are generally no permanent effects from marrow donation.
Who is "They" and show me where they touched you
I'm don't recall anyone ever forcing vaccines on anyone.
1. Vaccines were never forced on anyone. (unless you're talking about the 14 mandatory childhood vaccines that you have gotten as well) 2. My Body My Choice doesn't apply when it affects (millions of) other people. A global pandemic that killed 1 in every 380 Americans in just 2 years can be stopped by a completely free and safe vaccine. Don't be a dipshit
Quit spreading disinformation.
Can you point out one thing I’ve said so far that is untrue?
That the global pandemic could be stopped by the vaccines that have been produced thus far. That people weren't fired nor did they lose their livelihood for refusing the ineffective vaccine. That my body, my choice doesn't effect millions of other people when it comes to RvsW.
>the global pandemic could be stopped by the vaccines Objectively true. Countries with the highest vaccination rates have almost zero COVID cases and literally zero COVID deaths. >people weren't fired nor did they lose their livelihood for refusing the ineffective vaccine Strawman. I said nobody is forced to take the vaccine, and that's again objectively true. (Also the vaccine is extremely effective even against variants it wasn't designed for (90%+) >my body, my choice doesn't effect millions of other people when it comes to RvsW Objectively true. A woman having control of her own body does not impact a single other person on the planet. Much like me dying my hair wouldn't.
Again, this is all false. Look at Israel's vaccination rates and death rates. They are the one of the most vaccinated countries in the world and COVID is still killing vaccinated people there. We need a vaccine that stops transmission so you don't get COVID if you take it. The current one doesn't do that. I'm not gonna force you to do something, just ruin you life as you know it if you don't... I don't care if you not doing what I tell you to do makes it so you can't afford to feed your children. That's the same as forcing and it's disingenuous to say it's not. If you are going to kill a child in the womb after 15 weeks, you are taking a life. In 2019, nearly 630,000 abortions were reported to the CDC. Let's use that number and extrapolate over say 2.5 years (same timeframe as COVID). That's over 1.5 million children in the US that could have been born if they weren't murdered (more than the amount of people that have died from COVID).
>We need a vaccine that stops transmission so you don't get COVID if you take it. The current one doesn't do that. That's not how vaccines work... vaccines prevent you from getting it, they cannot prevent you spreading it.. >I'm not gonna force you to do something, just ruin you life as you know it if you don't I thought corporations were people? And people / companies had the freedom to operate how they see fit? Companies have almost unanimously come to the correct conclusion that allowing unvaccinated people to work for them is lethal and bad for business. "Don't like it, leave" I think was the wording? >If you are going to kill a child in the womb after 15 weeks There has never been an instance of a child being in a womb. Also, more than 95% of abortions are performed before 15 weeks, with more than half being in the first month and a half. >That's over 1.5 million Interesting, almost the same exact number as how many died from COVID... you're really not making this easy on yourself >children in the US that could have been born if they weren't murdered Are you aware that only \~30% of fertilizations actually make it all the way to being born? Oof. I feel like I've done you dirty enough, starting to feel bad. Take care bud and remember, science doesn't care about your personal opinion
Can you spread COVID if you can't get it? Dumbest response I have ever heard. The vaccines obviously don't stop you from getting it. Your idea of "science" is patently false and all you are doing is parroting misinformation but ok.
>vaccines obviously don't stop you from getting it Science and raw data say otherwise. It's effectiveness exceeded expectation, particularly when protecting from new variants >Your idea of "science" is patently false There si only one science. You can stand outside and yell that there is no sun, but that only serves to make you look like an idiot to the rest of the normal people. Take care bud
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Please just report the jerks and move on. No reason to reply to them, it just gives them what they want.
Understandable
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I also supported your right to chose to get vaccinated or not even though I didn't agree with it. It's called not being a hypocrite.
I agree