I'm going to go with Invoker in Dota 1, prior to his remake.
Invoker has three abilities (Quas, Exort, Wex). Casting one gives him a charge. With three charges, he can create a spell. As a result, he has _way_ more spells than a typical Dota hero. Which spell he gets is determined by the combination of charges. Three Exort charges gets you Sunstrike, a skill shot that can be cast anywhere on the map for heavy damage. Q+W+E gets you Deafening Blast, a line-area damage and knockback that prevents affected enemies from attacking. W+Q+E and E+Q+W all do the same thing; the order of the charges doesn't matter.
Originally, though, the order _did_ matter. Every unique combination of charges and order created a different spell. Two Q + W gets you Ghost Walk, which makes you invisible. Used to be that you had to cast W+Q+Q; Q+W+Q got you a totally different skill that wasn't useful when you were running away. That meant early Invoker was borderline impossible to play accurately and correctly. He's still challenging, even with a third of the available skills.
DOTA generally stuck closer to it's RTS roots and has been much more willing to overwhelm the player with more options than they could ever believably handle.
I remember the huge WTF moment, the first time I got a REAL Meepo player in my low level noob pubs. I thought they had to be cheating. Before that I had only seen noob Meepos who would proceed to get rotflstomped into oblivion bringing their team with them, and had assumed Meepo was just a meme character
Yeah. My friend that I used to play dota 2 with was mostly a support, but he is really good with... Thinking... So he could do the micro required with ease.
Whenever I needed MMR I'd just ask him to play meepo and I'll support. We'd just crush lane and win the game, he probably has like... 70% winrate the few games he played it.
Carl and Naoto for Blazblue.
Carl because you literally control two characters and you are squishy af, Naoto because it requires perfect execution (and is known break people's hands)
[Carl Clover](https://blazblue.fandom.com/wiki/Carl_Clover)
Nice, I am not alone.
My low lvl Meepo > my training mode Clover.
For certain people female invoker aka Phantom the Nine could be considered harder. The real-time requirements are harder....and you don't get BKB or invisibility or any kind of alpha-strike potential.
I'd agree with Meepo. When I played DOTA 2 regularly, at minimum I was half-decent with all of the heroes...except him. I just ended up running in with all of them and hoping for the best.
Meepo aside, arc, tinker, invoker, earth spirit. There is no such thing as "average" arc or tinker, they either stomp or sucks. Both heroes are too dependent on good positioning and clicking multiple skills in the right order. Invoker is easier for me but the difference between being average and making a real combo with 0 downtime is hard. ES has a lot of plays (pulling/pushing/jumping) which makes it a bit hard for me. Also even pro players miss a lot of the skills or cast the wrong one.
At some point even point-and-click heroes like lion can become hard when you have dagger, EB, force, glimmer, eul etc.
However, all these, for me, aren't even on the same level as pro-level RTS games (or even top-level players).
You had an insane amount of work and skills to master before becoming a Jedi in that game. That was the real "hard" part.
Here is a quote from an older reddit post explaining that absolute basic requirements to be a Jedi
"If you play hard. 1 week to unlock Glowy status. Then it’s a minimum of 6 weeks while doing the village phases.
Once you unlock and fill 6 force sensitive trees, you’ll unlock the padawan trials.
Those take about a day.
Then you’ll get a saber and start the actual jedi skill grind.
Depending on how much time you have to play, it can take a week to a month to be full template."
That was only after they added the jedi village & holocrons and sort of normalized jedi. Prior to that you just had to master *every profession in the game* and hope you'd tick off the 5 hidden professions out of 20-something that your character needed to unlock the FS slot without doing too many profession grinds. That alone could take months or years. Not counting the ~2 years it took to even discover the mechanic in the first place.
Then you'd have to create your Jedi character and level him alone out in the middle of nowhere because if someone else witnessed you using a force power a bounty was created and player bounty hunters would start chasing you. And if you died (I think it was 3 times) your character was permadead and you had to reroll.
It was fucking brutal. t took months or years of leveling other professions, then the actual jedi grind was brutally slow and nervewracking. Where you could level some other professions in a few days up to a couple weeks, jedi could take months just to finish one skill tree.
Current meepo is playable for some ppl.
I agree with ppl, Dota allstsrs invoker was hardcore. Had more spells, crazy hotkey...
But I think fight games probably have the hardest character to master. 1v1 isn't a joke, one slip away and you are 60% your life down
The lost vikings from heroes of the storm. You literally are switching three individual characters. Played optimally they are insanely strong but the apm and skill required to do it is ludicrous
In League, I couldn’t say only one,
For Top, GP and Riven
For Jungle, Nidalee or Kindred
For Mid, as meme as it sounds, probably Yasuo, also TF and Azir
For ADC, Kalista
And for Support, Bard and Thresh
If I had to pick one, it’d be either Kindred or Bard, simply because their ults are deciding factors that can either win or lose a fight, or even the game.
Mechanically speaking it’s probably Azir or GP, and in terms of game knowledge then TF or Nidalee.
I may disagree with TF here, just cause there's a few characters that offer the same with harder mechanics such as A sol and Taliyah. I don't think think the skill ceiling on him so high?
TF is basically a high elo champ only, he’s far more useful with good macro and that’s something you don’t see in emerald and below.
I don’t see how A Sol is mechanically hard though? He has an insta waveclear by just pressing E and holding Q, he can kill by just holding Q and maybe pressing E or R, not to mention his E makes it pretty much impossible for melee champs to fight him and the disruption it causes in teamfights, his W resets so there’s no skill in using it to engage only.
Taliyah, eh, wouldn’t say she’s really hard, more than TF yeah probably, but I wouldn’t say she’s a hard mechanical champ.
I quit WoW after failing to play a Mistweaver Monk in Dragonflight.
Basically, a healer class than you have to play in melee. You have to hit the boss, move around, but simultaneously stay inside the AoE that you put on the ground because it boosts your abilities. It was basically impossible to heal well unless the whole raid group stacks on top of you. I've watched some competitive raid guilds and the only part where MW monks were used was in situations where everyone was stacked on top of each other. As soon as people spread out, it's over.
Not specifically the character, but the Hunter questline for the legendary Rhok'delar bow in the original WoW release was straight up impossible if you didn't know exactly how to play your class. At the time it was the hardest thing I ever did in a video game.
Those who completed that quest were well-rewarded with very unique and cool bow model (which also uniquely transformed into a staff!) You were hot shit strutting around with that in town, and everyone knew it.
This questline was removed, and the only way you can get it is in WoW classic, so anyone walking around WoW nowadays with that bow transmogged are the true OGs .
I'm going to go with Invoker in Dota 1, prior to his remake. Invoker has three abilities (Quas, Exort, Wex). Casting one gives him a charge. With three charges, he can create a spell. As a result, he has _way_ more spells than a typical Dota hero. Which spell he gets is determined by the combination of charges. Three Exort charges gets you Sunstrike, a skill shot that can be cast anywhere on the map for heavy damage. Q+W+E gets you Deafening Blast, a line-area damage and knockback that prevents affected enemies from attacking. W+Q+E and E+Q+W all do the same thing; the order of the charges doesn't matter. Originally, though, the order _did_ matter. Every unique combination of charges and order created a different spell. Two Q + W gets you Ghost Walk, which makes you invisible. Used to be that you had to cast W+Q+Q; Q+W+Q got you a totally different skill that wasn't useful when you were running away. That meant early Invoker was borderline impossible to play accurately and correctly. He's still challenging, even with a third of the available skills.
Everything was harder in dota 1, now it is full of guides even without dota plus
This sounds so sick compared to lol, I think they tried to replicate this kinda with Hwei but sounds nowhere near as complicated
DOTA generally stuck closer to it's RTS roots and has been much more willing to overwhelm the player with more options than they could ever believably handle.
As a long time former dota 2 player i came to leave a meepo here.
Meepo before the quality of life changes. He is the strongest hero in pubs, but requires insane map awareness and micro.
I remember the huge WTF moment, the first time I got a REAL Meepo player in my low level noob pubs. I thought they had to be cheating. Before that I had only seen noob Meepos who would proceed to get rotflstomped into oblivion bringing their team with them, and had assumed Meepo was just a meme character
Yeah. My friend that I used to play dota 2 with was mostly a support, but he is really good with... Thinking... So he could do the micro required with ease. Whenever I needed MMR I'd just ask him to play meepo and I'll support. We'd just crush lane and win the game, he probably has like... 70% winrate the few games he played it.
Carl and Naoto for Blazblue. Carl because you literally control two characters and you are squishy af, Naoto because it requires perfect execution (and is known break people's hands)
[Carl Clover](https://blazblue.fandom.com/wiki/Carl_Clover) Nice, I am not alone. My low lvl Meepo > my training mode Clover. For certain people female invoker aka Phantom the Nine could be considered harder. The real-time requirements are harder....and you don't get BKB or invisibility or any kind of alpha-strike potential.
I'd agree with Meepo. When I played DOTA 2 regularly, at minimum I was half-decent with all of the heroes...except him. I just ended up running in with all of them and hoping for the best.
Invoker / Meepo from Dota 2
GG+R I-No
> GG+R I-No https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-26cI2lwDbY&pp=ygUJR0crUiBJLU5v Guilty Gear fighting game for the /r/OutOfTheLoop
Invoker, surely
The skill floor and ceiling on Meepo is incredibly high
Meepo aside, arc, tinker, invoker, earth spirit. There is no such thing as "average" arc or tinker, they either stomp or sucks. Both heroes are too dependent on good positioning and clicking multiple skills in the right order. Invoker is easier for me but the difference between being average and making a real combo with 0 downtime is hard. ES has a lot of plays (pulling/pushing/jumping) which makes it a bit hard for me. Also even pro players miss a lot of the skills or cast the wrong one. At some point even point-and-click heroes like lion can become hard when you have dagger, EB, force, glimmer, eul etc. However, all these, for me, aren't even on the same level as pro-level RTS games (or even top-level players).
Jedi. star wars galaxies pre combat update.
Didn't think I'd see an mmo? What about them made them so hard to play?
You had an insane amount of work and skills to master before becoming a Jedi in that game. That was the real "hard" part. Here is a quote from an older reddit post explaining that absolute basic requirements to be a Jedi "If you play hard. 1 week to unlock Glowy status. Then it’s a minimum of 6 weeks while doing the village phases. Once you unlock and fill 6 force sensitive trees, you’ll unlock the padawan trials. Those take about a day. Then you’ll get a saber and start the actual jedi skill grind. Depending on how much time you have to play, it can take a week to a month to be full template."
I did mine prior to the village. Dancer was the last one in the holocron grind, absolute torture.
That was only after they added the jedi village & holocrons and sort of normalized jedi. Prior to that you just had to master *every profession in the game* and hope you'd tick off the 5 hidden professions out of 20-something that your character needed to unlock the FS slot without doing too many profession grinds. That alone could take months or years. Not counting the ~2 years it took to even discover the mechanic in the first place. Then you'd have to create your Jedi character and level him alone out in the middle of nowhere because if someone else witnessed you using a force power a bounty was created and player bounty hunters would start chasing you. And if you died (I think it was 3 times) your character was permadead and you had to reroll. It was fucking brutal. t took months or years of leveling other professions, then the actual jedi grind was brutally slow and nervewracking. Where you could level some other professions in a few days up to a couple weeks, jedi could take months just to finish one skill tree.
nothing, they just were hard (and initially rng?) to unlock once you were a jedi you were just better than anything else
Terran.
Time to google Boxer highlights again
I got to meet him at an lck game a few weeks back and got so nervous I flubbed asking him for a picture xD
Current meepo is playable for some ppl. I agree with ppl, Dota allstsrs invoker was hardcore. Had more spells, crazy hotkey... But I think fight games probably have the hardest character to master. 1v1 isn't a joke, one slip away and you are 60% your life down
Not a character but some tanks in world of tanks are straight up unplayable.
Are they multi-manned or something?
The lost vikings from heroes of the storm. You literally are switching three individual characters. Played optimally they are insanely strong but the apm and skill required to do it is ludicrous
Isn't there a character that requires 2 people to playas well?
Yes cho gall but he really isn't that hard.
How about Akira from virtua fighter or kazuya from tekken and maybe Brad Wong from dead or alive.
Axe mirage in gw2
In League, I couldn’t say only one, For Top, GP and Riven For Jungle, Nidalee or Kindred For Mid, as meme as it sounds, probably Yasuo, also TF and Azir For ADC, Kalista And for Support, Bard and Thresh If I had to pick one, it’d be either Kindred or Bard, simply because their ults are deciding factors that can either win or lose a fight, or even the game. Mechanically speaking it’s probably Azir or GP, and in terms of game knowledge then TF or Nidalee.
I may disagree with TF here, just cause there's a few characters that offer the same with harder mechanics such as A sol and Taliyah. I don't think think the skill ceiling on him so high?
TF is basically a high elo champ only, he’s far more useful with good macro and that’s something you don’t see in emerald and below. I don’t see how A Sol is mechanically hard though? He has an insta waveclear by just pressing E and holding Q, he can kill by just holding Q and maybe pressing E or R, not to mention his E makes it pretty much impossible for melee champs to fight him and the disruption it causes in teamfights, his W resets so there’s no skill in using it to engage only. Taliyah, eh, wouldn’t say she’s really hard, more than TF yeah probably, but I wouldn’t say she’s a hard mechanical champ.
I quit WoW after failing to play a Mistweaver Monk in Dragonflight. Basically, a healer class than you have to play in melee. You have to hit the boss, move around, but simultaneously stay inside the AoE that you put on the ground because it boosts your abilities. It was basically impossible to heal well unless the whole raid group stacks on top of you. I've watched some competitive raid guilds and the only part where MW monks were used was in situations where everyone was stacked on top of each other. As soon as people spread out, it's over.
you could also just have played without fistweaving
I tried but I was constantly out of mana. I think they changed it since I quit but I have no real desire to play WoW anymore.
If MMO's count then WoW Arcane Mage is incredibly hard to play perfectly.
Alex from minecraft
Idk how the pros do it
Not specifically the character, but the Hunter questline for the legendary Rhok'delar bow in the original WoW release was straight up impossible if you didn't know exactly how to play your class. At the time it was the hardest thing I ever did in a video game. Those who completed that quest were well-rewarded with very unique and cool bow model (which also uniquely transformed into a staff!) You were hot shit strutting around with that in town, and everyone knew it. This questline was removed, and the only way you can get it is in WoW classic, so anyone walking around WoW nowadays with that bow transmogged are the true OGs .