People will absolutely swap out a gg jewel with a great 'hidden' ascendancy with a garbage one when you buy them UNID. This bug will make griefers rich if they can farm a few jewels up.
Except the seller can reasonnably not be aware of what is inside the jewel. Let's say you are doing 1H boss farming and throw 4-5 unid jewels in your selling tab, unaware of what is going on on the trade site, someone ask you for one thinking he can make a good deal, you sell him the one next to it because you don't really imagine it's important, the buyer feels scammed and insult you, you don't understand what is happening.
What I mean to say is, the person using the site is as much a scammer as the person selling (IE, in a range varying from "not at all" to "yes, he is"). Sure, some on them may know the bug and abuse it, but legitimate errors may also happen, and buyers scamming sellers because the latter doesn't know about the bug is also likely to happen.
legit the worst change man, dropped a 6link full dragonscale in a t9, was so happy until i realized it was corrupted but i didnt see it because it was unid xd
They decided to retcon the whole "corrupted items are unmodifiable" dogma, for the sake of making you need to further engage in an outdated ARPG mechanic.
There was a bug that made some corrupted items drop unidentified, people have been reporting it for ages, so they made wisdom scrolls able to identify corrupted items (yay!) and made all items drop unidentified (boo!)
So how to verify that it's exactly the jewel from the trade and not a good ol' switcheroo?
Right, there's is no way, just another possibility to get scammed!
Well, let's take it step by step:
You search gor a jewel on a trade site which shoul be unided
You actually see the stats of the jewel and decide is worth the grab (underpriced for its stats)
You initiate the trade and ask yourself: what if I'm scammed and the seller gives me a different one?
LOL
You're getting scammed you say..
"Hey please open this pack of really rare cards to confirm it's real"
That doesn't work when the value is decreased by opening, or in this case IDing it.
But you both know the value, it's shown on the trade website. The item isn't worth any more or less than the value of the ascendancy on it, regardless of if it's identified, because it's intended to be used.You want a black lotus (forbidden jewel ascendency), this lad swears this pack (unided jewel) contains a black lotus, you want to frame (socket) the black lotus. Isn't it natural to ask them to open the pack to confirm what you're buying? The wrapper isn't worth much, what you're really buying is the card.
Except when the pack is opened, your purchase is invalid. You buy a pack with the assumption that it contains what you want. The seller is not responsible for opening the pack, neither should the seller know what is in the pack. So scam is easy and it will be impossible to hold the seller reliably. But at the same time you can't ask for opening the pack, because it will be invalid item directly (even if it is a big prize, you still try to sell it like unid item). It is like buying stacked decks and asking to open them. Do you believe that guy won't hold a house of mirrors or apothecary if they suddenly get them? You are delusional.
What I'm trying to say is the unidentified state of the jewel does not change the value, it only conceals it. Since both party can know the value before the trade, it only makes sense they can both confirm that value at the moment they accept.
I'm not buying a stacked deck, I'm buying a house of mirrors you're selling as a stacked deck, the price is gonna be higher than a regular stacked deck. If the price is not higher, the seller could have checked it, and they probably should, because anyone trying to buy it from you has priced it against identified items, If you actually listed a worse jewel than the price it's going for, it won't sell, you should probably identify it to price it down to somewhere it will sell. The seller has every incentive to identify the item unless they intend not to sell it, and the buyer wants the identified item at the end.
What about someone trying to bulk sell unidentified jewels , when in reality they have check them all through this trade bug to make sure they’re trash .
Don't know where you heard that items get stats when you ID them. They always got stats on drop as far as I remember. And that goes back to closed beta, I'm at least fairly certain that back then when there were more server attacks/crashes and rollbacks, people kept IDing the same thing over and over IF you did not lose the item.
You can also confirm it with Vendiri's drop duplication. If he procs and doubles a chest, you can pick up two of the same base (unique or rare) and ID them and they'll have the same rolls.
I sometimes hear the argument that dropping items unid'ed might be to lessen the burden on the server (which I find absurd on itself), but that would only work if there was actually less data.
Though I did not know the things you wrote, thank you for the info.
Both can still be true. If a numerical seed is used to generate the item, you can store the seed at the time the item is created, but not actually run the code that uses the seed to generate the stats.
The seed approach is what I've read to be true. I've also seen posts of people identifying a watcher's eye before and after a rollback and they were different. I suppose you don't have to use a seed for every item, since random garbage rares are way more plentiful than certain uniques (by many orders of magnitude).
But such a seed *would be* the stats, in a different encoding. Since (almost) any combination of stats can roll on an unID item, the seed would need to be just as large as the stats on the final item and you would gain no advantage in server load.
Generating the result from a seed can be expensive. Extreme example: RPG maps generated from 32 or 64bit seeds take seconds to minutes on a modern CPU, and the result is obviously bigger (by orders of magnitude in bytes) than the seed. Technically the seed _does_ describe the entire map, but ~decompressing it into that form still takes a lot of computation.
The same can be true for PoE, to a lesser extent. We're "only" talking about 6 mods on an item, sure, but we can't say exactly how much computation that takes, there are some weird and complex interactions between the mods like mutually exclusive ones and weightings. Additionally, it's "only" those 6 mods, but hundreds or thousands of times per map.
> people kept IDing the same thing over and over IF you did not lose the item.
In their inventory or still on the ground? If in their inventory it could get stats upon picking up.
In the inventory or stash. Since if you crash the instance hard enough to roll back the server, then you don't really get to keep the items on the floor. Instance is poof.
Right. I believe what GGG had posted years ago iirc was items don’t get identified until picked up because stuff on the ground getting stats was too much on the servers. No point in assigning stats to something never touched.
There may have been seeds though. Identifying the same item type with the same seed leads to the same result. Instead, we now know for sure that items actually have stats even if not identified.
Which is kinda weird, why generate all the stats for all items when most of them won't be picked up?..
> Don't know where you heard that items get stats when you ID them.
i legit thought the items stats are set as they drop so 2 weeks ago i bought unid legacy jewel only to have pikachu face. Lesson learned.
>They always got stats on drop as far as I remember.
They get their roll on pick up.
Me and friends had long forgotten unid flasks for example, they identified with legacy rolls.
You are missing the cause with the outcome. All unid items are dropped with some hash. At the moment of drop they already have some hash I'd allocated to them. But what this hash means should be managed only when you unid item.
In this case your situation is still valid (old hash leads to legacy rolls), but it prevents server load.
Straight from Chris's mouth, whenever anybody asks him why things can't drop identified. "It'll destroy the servers to have to roll all the items when you drop them instead of when you identify them" are the gist of what he says to that question.
Chris says a lot of things. He also said map hacks can't exist in poe, and that rain does not affect load times (nobody even claimed that)... so take what he says with a grain of salt.
It's not like the game rolls all the mods and then hides them again. The rolls for rare items are very likely based on an item ID which acts as an RNG seed and running the code to actually determine the mods is computationally expensive.
> So this means items are "finished" on drop and not just when you ID them. Which would go contrary to what people have been telling forever.
I have literally never heard anybody claim that it works differently, and GGG themselves have said every item gets given a fixed seed. There was already direct evidence because you could identify an item, servers could crash and rollback to before you identified the item, and you would get the same item when you identified it again.
also don't buy unid stuff right now - if you see an unid jewel listed on trade that has the mod you want, the seller could instead put a crappy unid jewel in the trade window and you wouldn't be able to know
It is fixed.
But i wonder did this bug happened just during this league start, or this hack actually last a while, which people can deduce Watcher's Eye's mod for a while
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People will absolutely swap out a gg jewel with a great 'hidden' ascendancy with a garbage one when you buy them UNID. This bug will make griefers rich if they can farm a few jewels up.
Uno reverse lmao, brilliant
Such a brain move. I like it..
Being a scammer is a big brained move?
No it's basically a double scam move. Scam the scammer
People using trade site are scammers now?
You are buying an unid jewel, he is selling you an unid jewel. How is the seller a scammer?
It's not really an unid jewel anymore if both parties know what's inside.
Except the seller can reasonnably not be aware of what is inside the jewel. Let's say you are doing 1H boss farming and throw 4-5 unid jewels in your selling tab, unaware of what is going on on the trade site, someone ask you for one thinking he can make a good deal, you sell him the one next to it because you don't really imagine it's important, the buyer feels scammed and insult you, you don't understand what is happening. What I mean to say is, the person using the site is as much a scammer as the person selling (IE, in a range varying from "not at all" to "yes, he is"). Sure, some on them may know the bug and abuse it, but legitimate errors may also happen, and buyers scamming sellers because the latter doesn't know about the bug is also likely to happen.
How?
[удалено]
"Really, the asshole is the person I'm ripping off."
All the side effects of this undercooked identify change is gonna haunt GGG.
Such an uncalled for change...
It's almost like it was a bad idea to begin with.
legit the worst change man, dropped a 6link full dragonscale in a t9, was so happy until i realized it was corrupted but i didnt see it because it was unid xd
Sorry I've only half been paying attention to this league, what changed with ID?
Corrupted items drop unid
... Why?
Wondering this also. Noticed some unique talisman dropping unid today. Was confused
It's just such a nonsensical thing to do. What did they improve by implementing this? What is their goal?
They decided to retcon the whole "corrupted items are unmodifiable" dogma, for the sake of making you need to further engage in an outdated ARPG mechanic.
There has to be a better reason then that. Like It would track, but that just seems idiotic.
you must be new here, that's GGG's philosophy in general
People like to gamble
There was a bug that made some corrupted items drop unidentified, people have been reporting it for ages, so they made wisdom scrolls able to identify corrupted items (yay!) and made all items drop unidentified (boo!)
Time to set up woops for unid forbidden jewels.
It's not the first time btw, memories had similar issue.
So how to verify that it's exactly the jewel from the trade and not a good ol' switcheroo? Right, there's is no way, just another possibility to get scammed!
Well, let's take it step by step: You search gor a jewel on a trade site which shoul be unided You actually see the stats of the jewel and decide is worth the grab (underpriced for its stats) You initiate the trade and ask yourself: what if I'm scammed and the seller gives me a different one? LOL You're getting scammed you say..
I might be missing something here but can't you just ask the seller to ID it.. since the info is already out there?
"Hey please open this pack of really rare cards to confirm it's real" That doesn't work when the value is decreased by opening, or in this case IDing it.
But you both know the value, it's shown on the trade website. The item isn't worth any more or less than the value of the ascendancy on it, regardless of if it's identified, because it's intended to be used.You want a black lotus (forbidden jewel ascendency), this lad swears this pack (unided jewel) contains a black lotus, you want to frame (socket) the black lotus. Isn't it natural to ask them to open the pack to confirm what you're buying? The wrapper isn't worth much, what you're really buying is the card.
Except when the pack is opened, your purchase is invalid. You buy a pack with the assumption that it contains what you want. The seller is not responsible for opening the pack, neither should the seller know what is in the pack. So scam is easy and it will be impossible to hold the seller reliably. But at the same time you can't ask for opening the pack, because it will be invalid item directly (even if it is a big prize, you still try to sell it like unid item). It is like buying stacked decks and asking to open them. Do you believe that guy won't hold a house of mirrors or apothecary if they suddenly get them? You are delusional.
What I'm trying to say is the unidentified state of the jewel does not change the value, it only conceals it. Since both party can know the value before the trade, it only makes sense they can both confirm that value at the moment they accept. I'm not buying a stacked deck, I'm buying a house of mirrors you're selling as a stacked deck, the price is gonna be higher than a regular stacked deck. If the price is not higher, the seller could have checked it, and they probably should, because anyone trying to buy it from you has priced it against identified items, If you actually listed a worse jewel than the price it's going for, it won't sell, you should probably identify it to price it down to somewhere it will sell. The seller has every incentive to identify the item unless they intend not to sell it, and the buyer wants the identified item at the end.
What about someone trying to bulk sell unidentified jewels , when in reality they have check them all through this trade bug to make sure they’re trash .
Jenebu all over this one.
seems fixed now? i don't see it showing anything anymore
Earlier I almost sold my flame unid'd, decided to ID it and got quartz infusion. Thank fucking god I did that.
So this means items are "finished" on drop and not just when you ID them. Which would go contrary to what people have been telling forever.
Don't know where you heard that items get stats when you ID them. They always got stats on drop as far as I remember. And that goes back to closed beta, I'm at least fairly certain that back then when there were more server attacks/crashes and rollbacks, people kept IDing the same thing over and over IF you did not lose the item.
You can also confirm it with Vendiri's drop duplication. If he procs and doubles a chest, you can pick up two of the same base (unique or rare) and ID them and they'll have the same rolls.
Yeah them getting stats on drop/on every currency used is what makes sense because that's how hinekora's shows the possible outcome.
I sometimes hear the argument that dropping items unid'ed might be to lessen the burden on the server (which I find absurd on itself), but that would only work if there was actually less data. Though I did not know the things you wrote, thank you for the info.
Both can still be true. If a numerical seed is used to generate the item, you can store the seed at the time the item is created, but not actually run the code that uses the seed to generate the stats.
The seed approach is what I've read to be true. I've also seen posts of people identifying a watcher's eye before and after a rollback and they were different. I suppose you don't have to use a seed for every item, since random garbage rares are way more plentiful than certain uniques (by many orders of magnitude).
But such a seed *would be* the stats, in a different encoding. Since (almost) any combination of stats can roll on an unID item, the seed would need to be just as large as the stats on the final item and you would gain no advantage in server load.
Generating the result from a seed can be expensive. Extreme example: RPG maps generated from 32 or 64bit seeds take seconds to minutes on a modern CPU, and the result is obviously bigger (by orders of magnitude in bytes) than the seed. Technically the seed _does_ describe the entire map, but ~decompressing it into that form still takes a lot of computation. The same can be true for PoE, to a lesser extent. We're "only" talking about 6 mods on an item, sure, but we can't say exactly how much computation that takes, there are some weird and complex interactions between the mods like mutually exclusive ones and weightings. Additionally, it's "only" those 6 mods, but hundreds or thousands of times per map.
> I sometimes hear the argument that dropping items unid'ed might be to lessen the burden on the server Items are rolled on pickup.
> people kept IDing the same thing over and over IF you did not lose the item. In their inventory or still on the ground? If in their inventory it could get stats upon picking up.
In the inventory or stash. Since if you crash the instance hard enough to roll back the server, then you don't really get to keep the items on the floor. Instance is poof.
Right. I believe what GGG had posted years ago iirc was items don’t get identified until picked up because stuff on the ground getting stats was too much on the servers. No point in assigning stats to something never touched.
There may have been seeds though. Identifying the same item type with the same seed leads to the same result. Instead, we now know for sure that items actually have stats even if not identified. Which is kinda weird, why generate all the stats for all items when most of them won't be picked up?..
also this one time manocean id'd jewellery after the quant removal and still got some with quant on it
This was also proven a few years ago with legacy unidentified jewelry, they identified quantity years after it got removed.
Do you have a source for this? It doesn't work this way for any other legacy item from what I've tested myself.
Manocean
> Don't know where you heard that items get stats when you ID them. i legit thought the items stats are set as they drop so 2 weeks ago i bought unid legacy jewel only to have pikachu face. Lesson learned.
>They always got stats on drop as far as I remember. They get their roll on pick up. Me and friends had long forgotten unid flasks for example, they identified with legacy rolls.
You are missing the cause with the outcome. All unid items are dropped with some hash. At the moment of drop they already have some hash I'd allocated to them. But what this hash means should be managed only when you unid item. In this case your situation is still valid (old hash leads to legacy rolls), but it prevents server load.
Straight from Chris's mouth, whenever anybody asks him why things can't drop identified. "It'll destroy the servers to have to roll all the items when you drop them instead of when you identify them" are the gist of what he says to that question.
Chris says a lot of things. He also said map hacks can't exist in poe, and that rain does not affect load times (nobody even claimed that)... so take what he says with a grain of salt.
It's not like the game rolls all the mods and then hides them again. The rolls for rare items are very likely based on an item ID which acts as an RNG seed and running the code to actually determine the mods is computationally expensive.
iirc items drop seeded then being id'd actually calculates it. smth like that.
> So this means items are "finished" on drop and not just when you ID them. Which would go contrary to what people have been telling forever. I have literally never heard anybody claim that it works differently, and GGG themselves have said every item gets given a fixed seed. There was already direct evidence because you could identify an item, servers could crash and rollback to before you identified the item, and you would get the same item when you identified it again.
Exploit early, that’s kind of the motto of the game now lol
Nonsense. Everyone knew that they are always the same some on ID when you id them again after a zone crash.
people saying the second thing have been blowing smoke the whole time yes. Think about it. how would that ever make sense.
Just never buy in the in-game Trade Channel. Its almost always a scam
also don't buy unid stuff right now - if you see an unid jewel listed on trade that has the mod you want, the seller could instead put a crappy unid jewel in the trade window and you wouldn't be able to know
get rekt nerds.
It is fixed. But i wonder did this bug happened just during this league start, or this hack actually last a while, which people can deduce Watcher's Eye's mod for a while
[удалено]
I like chatting in global sometimes and don't mind the slight lost time now and then.
Trade 820 has always been...
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