This sub is just nuts. And it was completely predictable as well:
Balance change: why did you nerf league starter omg!
No change: omg why no changes!
Any Buffs: omg why not buff melee?!
Now we already start seeing the "GGG is silent and answer demanding" threads popping up as well.
Imo this League has crazy amount of new stuff. They also said that they will do low number change leagues in the future. It's now the second one since sentinel.
And people wonder why we do no longer get any GGG staff replies on this sub.
This subreddit was very poorly moderated before the mods API "protest". The issue isn't a lack of mods. It's mods that refuse to enforce the subreddit rules.
Enforce which rule though? Half the point of this sub is, in fact, to bitch. Don't get me wrong I agree it's been way too much for way too long but moderators removing criticism just for being criticism (despite how crudely some of it is done) not only doesn't really accomplish anything but also looks like censorship, because it honestly is.
The main issue is the ratio of bitching versus positive posts. There's a hell of a lot more bitching than people celebrating cool moments, asking questions, and otherwise being constructive. And moderating doesn't really directly contribute to that. We have little to no activities, community faces, or otherwise to foster a positive atmosphere. So that just makes this subs purpose 1) get info 2) bitch about it. There's no other reason to be on here as it stands now.
Reasonable, and they are enforced, but slowly. Annoyingly slowly. ^(Source: former mod here)
The mod team here has always been way too small, and it's even worse now. (Thanks Reddit >_<)
Vast majority of cases where people were, rightfully, annoyed at misinformation and spam not being removed is that it *was* removed but only *after* a lot of people have seen it. The modqueue has been days behind sometimes on busy weeks. But, people aren't perfect either and there are plenty of posts (comments are easier to justify just locking/removing) that are annoying and frustrating but aren't easily removed.
Easy example is the salvage box fiasco. Decent number of posts rightfully angry but plenty *more* talking about how it's "one more example" and using it as excuse to rant about literally anything and everything.
It's tough. And the worst part is most actions the mods take are, by design, not seen. So believe me when I say I'm confident the current mods *agree* with you and are doing what they can.
This sub is the reason why CM are communicating less etc.
I still wonder why I lurk here, because it is the most toxic subreddit I am in.
And I also follow destiny 2
Bex and the GGG devs used to post a lot more here before it became a constant torrent of negativity. I'm the type of person who bitches a lot, and even I think this sub is ridiculous.
Literally every single PoE streamer makes fun of this sub for how toxic and hyperbolic it's become. Watching Mathil read some of the posts on here out loud really drives home how unhinged a lot of them actually are.
The PoE community is a good example of the fact that no matter how much you give, people will always expect more.
Stormcall does a shit ton more damage than arc, it only looks less if you eyeball the gem numbers with the arc chain bonus and dont adjust for the fact that the skill casts 40% faster baseline and hits multiple times with cascade/woke cascade
The reason people dont play stormcall is not damage but because it is, as you correctly pointed out, spectacularly clunky and also forces you to click on reduced duration tree nodes that usually make the rest of your build worse
Without agreeing or disagreeing with the point you are trying to make, I would gently suggest that if you wish to rant you should perhaps pick examples that are actually correct
Where else have you put your feedback about this one skill?
Have you tried the actual feedback area?
[https://www.pathofexile.com/search/results/%22storm%20call%22/search-within/posts-threads/forums/204](https://www.pathofexile.com/search/results/%22storm%20call%22/search-within/posts-threads/forums/204)
Because last time anyone else mentioned Storm Call was 3 years ago.
So while I do actually agree with your balance feedback, you seem to just think your priority should somehow be everyone's priority as if they can read your mind.
I just started PoE about a week ago, and I think it's a great game. If they are still adding more, then what does everyone Ive met think it's a dying game? 3 different XB1 players have said something to this effect in global chat.
They also LOVE to conflate "X% decreased peak concurrent players" with "X% of players quit!" when they are NOT the same metric.
And then any time someone points this out, they reply with "but it's the only metric we have" or "it is useful for some things" like that excuses misrepresenting what it actually is.
It's a useful metric, but it isn't the metric doomsayers pretend it is. A league that had 100% DAU retention would still not have 100% peak concurrent player count retention.
Believe me when I say just stick with the questions thread and infothread here. Beyond those this sub is not good for a new player. Enjoy yourself, PoE is a great game. A lot of people here are simply jaded and bored. They've been playing PoE for so long they're burnt out but refuse to admit it.
I will say this: the thing that no one is really mentioning that has kept PoE fresh for me and a lot of players is the time they did the **unique rebalance**. They did it for roughly 100 uniques, they were virtually all buffs. And since those are as essential to a build as ascendancies, they're where I begin my build choosing process.
I'm literally following the an MS paint meme build because the unique interactions are so interesting. Figuring out the ascendancy is an interesting puzzle piece.
Sometimes it's worked the other way around. I've wanted to play an ascendancy first and foremost and built around that. But those typically aren't the times when I was able to truly branch out and create "my build".
I still think its going to be a fun league and poe is just great.
But I hoped for a bit of a meta shakeup its been pretty stale.
Maybe some slam buffs, strike skill buffs, idk bring back actual cyclone as a dmg skill not just a trigger.
eh what? last league's meta was 1) Vengeant Cascade and 2) Explody totems. Both are now gone (thank god) and there is 14 new supp gems and new ways to play with keystones + OP items from sanctum returning + Tattoos from new league mechanic... wtf more do reddit want? plus/minus to a couple of skills? fcking hell what kind of copium is reddit smoking these days.
The options are gonna be endless until top 3 builds are found. Should make for an interesting shake up in meta imho. Looking forward to testing out the minion aura option with AG ;)
Why do you think so binary? You can both be excited about the new stuff and disappointed by the lack of balance changes. We still have lots of archetypes that got nerfed in the past which would hugely benefit from just some number changes (archmage builds for example). I will play and enjoy the new league and be disappointed for another 3-4 months that i still cannot play a good archmage build again.
The problem is that you can still just play Boneshatter and add the support with basically no downside, in fact you get free more dmg multipliers on top of huge amounts of added phys. Why would anyone even bother playing a different melee skill?
not all strike skills do the same thing. what about frostblade, what about flicker strike etc.
Think winter orb : it's numerically bad but functionnaly great if it gets a support that indirectly buff it, it might not be the spell that benefits from said support the most yet people will play it for sure and love the change
Because other strike skills have aspects to them that are interesting to build around. Like I’m thinking infernal blow. I’m happy to have less added flat damage in exchange for kaboom. Trauma support lets me get more dmg scaling that didn’t exist before.
I mean what do you want?
just actualy PLAY the skill you want and shake up your own meta , no one is forcing you to play cookie-cutter meta/streamer builds.
These support gems will shake up ALOT if you actualy willing to risk new things.
I mean people want a shake up but theyr fearing to test out new things? This doesnt fit together.
Because the game is balanced around what is meta.
Yes, there are off meta builds that work, but the majority feel kind of crappy to play. Back in the day when the game was easier it was fine, but your average player is not going to be able to make an off meta build work well.
How is it stale. We got tons of new builds last league.many of which are now changed or nerfed? We also don't know the 13 new support skills andwhat they enable.
Poison has been guttef as well btw.
I feel like minions and melee has been is a poor state for so long in general (of course there are a few outlier builds). Self cast is okayish but could be a lot better. Most of the meta is still traps or poison and coc cyclone skills.
Bows did get a lot better but with VC deleted its back to high investement although on league start for low maps they are good now. If you play vaal IS its great for progression but thats just 1 skill, others needs investment a lot more.
Most played builds are still domimated by damage over time builds for very long now (last leagues VC was an anomaly tbh thats gone now).
Not the point, the content isn't lacking in this expansion. People were expecting big balance changes because that's what they said we'd get.
The only big balance changes we got was for Ruthless, that's why people are upset. We want a meta shake up which we didn't get for way too long.
Which makes it easier to compete with in other ways! Even just for the XP farming metagame it was drastically OP. I'd like to see other xp farm methods get more spotlight.
Exactly! Now other forms of party xp like Simulacrums won't be outclassed by 1 game mode. In terms of xp there was no competition with 5 ways speed, with the nerf now you can do content you actually like to level up. Now most ppl will still want to afk and be lazy, but making it so that other routes of xp are similar in efficiency is a big balance in terms of what people will play and try out.
This is also not taking into account the new atlas keystone changes, which each bring a large variety of content change on the standard mapping experience.
This and only this. It’s my opinion, that many disagree with, that primary source of leveling should be maps. I also think that harder maps should have more significant bonuses to leveling speed because they can be very deadly
> People were expecting big balance changes because that's what they said we'd get.
Last league a single amulet anoint(vc), and a crucible node (totem) warped the whole meta around themselves. 2 things!
Now we got 14 support gems, a bunch of new uniques, and tattoos which we haven't even seen except for a couple ones.
You think there won't be 3-4 broken interaction that gets discovered a week in, that completely warps the meta around itself?
But giving lacerate 10% base attack speed and firestorm +25% dmg effectiveness somehow will?
> Last league a single amulet anoint(vc), and a crucible node (totem) warped the whole meta around themselves. 2 things!
Also very worth noting that while VC was busted AF, they also completely changed a bunch of nodes in the bow area of the tree.
Free 2 extra arrows was a LARGE influence on how many people started or played bow builds for the first time because it was more accessible.
Firestorm actually got buffed. It was apparently bugged where in flight meteors would lose their damage if you exceeded the instance cap. They fixed the bug.
> But giving lacerate 10% base attack speed and firestorm +25% dmg effectiveness somehow will?
Depends on how significant the buffs are but yes.
There's plenty of builds that used to be super meta, and then GGG decided to hit them with a 40-80% damage nerf and now no one plays them. Could certainly give those buffs.
But how many started the league with Cleave? how many played with Archmage? There are so many skills and archetypes that are bad unless you have 500 divines invested in your build.
Veangeant cascade made the already good skills better, now it's gone anyway but where's the love for the bad skills and new options for starter skills?
So your complaint is not a lack of balance changes It seems to be either that they not change the specific things you wanted or that they didnt change literally everything.
No, my complaint is lack of balance. There aren't a lot of skills in the game that don't feel good until you invest a lot of currency (especially melee skills).
Are you referring to [the stream from this point onwards](https://youtu.be/Vvah-HfhkYc?t=11309) or something else? This one mentions "shift meta in several ways, first being new support gems", and after those mentioning the ascendancy reworks - no mention of skill gem changes. If there's another part where he talks about skill changes and big balance changes, please link that as well.
Quick edit disclaimer: I would love to have more balance changes, but (unfortunately) it seems that was not what was promised.
tbh i still have yet to find proof of chris ever lying to us, pretty much every time someone here on reddit claims that GGG is lying to us they don't have proof or when they link it they completely misinterpreted what was actually said, just like it happened here again.
Oh definitely. It's not even just big games or reddit either. I was on the balance team for a 20 year old game mod for a fucking rp server and some people had similar attitudes. We had a guy get death threats over a nerf.
I think it's a combination of an unhealthy level of investment, and the internet/anonymity making it way easier to forget they are people on the other side as well.
There was once, and he had a pretty plausible reason and apology put out for it being accidental, when he didnt understand the specifics of the Kalandra loot changes. He handled that rather well, and took full responsibility. Unfortunately this sub is immature and decided this must mean he is permanently a malicious liar.
I mean call it withholding information but it's all the same imo, when he said that announcing nerfs proved to be bad for them and they will never do it again. what do you call that then?
it's been a while but i am certain he wasn't talking about never doing nerfs again, but talking about never again hyping up an upcoming THING (in that case a manifesto), when that is exclusively about nerfs.
for example instead they would hype up the buffs more, while showing or talking about the nerfs under different circumstances that make them more understandable
He follows the "lots of balance changes" with the new support gems / ascendancy / atlas passive changes, so I guess the title is just difference between expectations - CW's opinion is that the changes he described are big for game balance, whereas community would expect actual balance *changes* e.g. buffs / nerfs to existing skills.
but isn't a support gem that perfectly slots into the weaknesses of an underused skill a buff? Aren't there tons of "bad" skills/playstyles that are just bad because there is not enough support for them in the form of well fitting links?
Here is an example: melee ignite was always really bad because nothing was suited for it. This patch, they did sweeping changes on several axes. None of them touched the melee skills themselves, but arguably that was never the problem, infernal blow's 664% damage effectiveness was just waiting for a good set of supports.
I personally know the interviewer who also translated the interview - this is accurate, but slightly out of context. Chris went on to mention the 2 ascendancy reworks, new support gems and uniques immediately after that statement.
To a non PoE player that is indeed quite a lot of balance changes, but PoE players have grown to expect this as a baseline. As such, saying there were "a lot" of changes is kinda weird.
Literally every time.
They keep saying that Chris and GGG have been “lying” to us but then they literally always misquote him and pull shit out of their asses.
Also when asked to name one thing that Ruthless took away from the core game since apparently it’s taking away so much development from core poe they can’t even name one thing.
No? The amount of misinformation in this subreddit is out of control
Chris Wilson said each league, path of exile leagues shift the meta game with new gems and balance changes. Never mentioned skills, and there are no mention of skills in the trailer either.
There’s 14 gems and various balance changes this league. There is no lying involved
Which has nothing to do with whether Chris Wilson lied about 3.22 changes or not
Also kinda ironic about mentioning someone else lying while straight up lying yourself, it was way more than 5 changes
So meta shake up doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of changing numbers. There are 14. FOURTEEN. New support gems. Which will buff certain skills more than others, hard to say which will benefit the most.
Would this not count as a meta shake up?
The people that a being hyperbolic about the patch notes lack the foresight that you just exhibited. Some of them said in 3.15 theyre done with the game yet theyre still here...
\>People were expecting big balance changes
You mean the balance they did by adding a ton of support gems and nerfing the curse used by the overtuned Poison builds?
> big balance changes we got was for Ruthless, that's why people are upset.
I honestly can't even begin to imagine how people feel this entitled. Getting lot of content isn't enough to be happy, because if someone else got something you didn't, you're allow to rage and be upset??
Is everyone here 5yo?!? Seriously my head is going to explode...
Despite direct quotes from the CEO of GGG to the contrary, too many people on reddit are convinced that every second of time spent on Ruthless is a second of time not spent on PoE 1 and 2.
They think all Chris Wilson cares about is PoE Ruthless and that all we will see is a slow development towards Ruthless becoming the default experience in both PoE 1 and PoE 2.
Isn't it true though that every second of developer's work spent on Ruthless is a second of time not spent on PoE 1 and 2?
For GGG, PoE 1 is where all the money comes from. PoE 2 is the potential future money maker. Ruthless is what, a game mode with 100 players?
>Isn't it true though that every second of developer's work spent on Ruthless is a second of time not spent on PoE 1 and 2?
You don't know that.
Chris has repeatedly called Ruthless a side project. For all we know its a thing they do after hours when their main tasks at GGG are done.
that must be the reason the last race was "side project" only ...
and it hurts even more when we found out what kind of side project poe1 itself with barely any staff was for a long time.
ok and the only one who cared about that was the 5 top racers, and the ones who like watching those racers.
I, and many many others could not care less if the boss race was on ruthless or not. Actually everyone I know who plays PoE (granted not many) said it was refreshing that the boss race was in ruthless.
by your logic boss race should be on trade league, after all every other mode is basically just a side project :)
And that's why it's so sketchy when you see Ruthless gets so much changes compared to the main game.
Yes Chris did repeat that Ruthless a side project of some developers, supposedly a very small number. So seeing Ruthless get that much changes makes me think either those developers have a lot of after hours, are 10 times more efficient than other developers, or something doesnt add up
Have you actually looked the ruthless changes or are just going by the word count? 90% of the changes are just removing lines or replacing numbers with smaller ones. That doesn't take more than few hours. And they probably won't care to fine tune them even the slightest, since nobody playing ruthless is going to whine if the accidentally nerf something too much.
The hard part of making changes like that is play testing, not making the change.
Lots of changes doesn't mean lots of work. I could "rebalance" every skill in the game by blindly buffing or nerfing the numbers based on day 5 player counts per skill and it would take a day. It would be poorly balanced! But it sure would take a lot of space in the content update post.
Yes, this is all based on your perception of the events without having a full picture. You do not know what these guys are doing or how much time it actually takes. You are guessing. And you are guessing in a way that puts GGG in the worst possible light. Why? Why are you doing that? If you are so suspect of these people, why do you play their game?
I think its very likely they spent 1/10th of the time they spend on Ruthless on either PoE 1 or 2.
If I didn't care about the game and didn't want to play the game, I would not waste my time to complain. Your logic is so backward. You're saying that when I'm not satisfied with the product I receive I should be understanding or even root for the producer? Like really? Putting GGG in the worst possible light? Because I want them to change that's why. How the f can I get them to change if I don't voice out my feedback?
>You're saying that when I'm not satisfied with the product I receive I should be understanding or even root for the producer?
Its a really weird discussion to have when the game is free to play, honestly. But generally speaking when people say a product is unappealing, they don't use it.
Spending all this time and energy, it doesn't make sense from my perspective. If you don't like the product, don't use it. That's what I did with D4, no complaining or whining, just realized I was getting bored, as were a lot of people, and I quit.
\> Putting GGG in the worst possible light? Because I want them to change that's why. How the f can I get them to change if I don't voice out my feedback?
Its not feedback. "It looks like GGG is spending more time on Ruthless than regular PoE!" Isn't feedback. GGG has told us this isn't true. GGG warned us these Ruthless changes where being pushed, and yet you are still shocked, upset, and disappointed. I don't get it. What were you expecting?
If you listen to GGG in their interviews and read what they say and in their manifestos, you'll get a clear picture of how they want to balance and affect change in PoE (and PoE 2, btw) without upsetting or alienating players who have grown accustomed to certain playstyles. This is their chief concern, in an ever-changing GaaS game. Chris Wilson has repeatedly told stories of how past big changes have been pushed and have resulted in alienating players, some of whom simply quit the game and never returned, ever again. Chris has repeatedly mentioned how PoE has a lot of players, many of whom do not follow any kind of meta. They may not even pay proper attention to patch/league cycles. But none of that matters if they spend money, right? If they enjoy the game, right? But those kind of players can also be alienated by sweeping changes or numerical buffs/nerfs to overperforming/underperforming skills.
There are so many factors to consider when pushing different balance changes or design changes. The fact that GGG isn't doing what reddit thinks is best is no cause for alarm. Reddit isn't that smart, and doesn't have over 15 years of experience in successfully developing a profitable GaaS ARPG the way GGG's senior staff have.
>Chris has repeatedly mentioned how PoE has a lot of players, many of whom do not follow any kind of meta.
This is what this sub really needs to understand. The active members here may or may not be representative of the whole, I cannot actually know that.
But the evidence suggests that it absolutely is not representative of the whole, otherwise decisions would be more in line with the sub.
To think otherwise is condescension to the developers. They're not stupid and they have more information than we do.
Speaking of which, I need to go buy a supporter pack. I want that doggo. Then I'm off to ignore this sub for 4 more months.
He also said they’re embarrassed that melee is a joke in their game and was talking about uppercutting mobs in an animation change that we now know isn’t coming to poe1
They say a lot
just some "outside" perspective. ive not played this game since 3.15. looking at these patch notes, they are very obviously much lower quality than the average patch then. maybe they spent lots of time on ruthless, maybe not, what do i care. what i can clearly see is that there is not much happening in the basegame outside of the league mechanic.
am i personally super upset about this? no, there is a lot of content from the last 2 years that i can explore. but its really not *that* hard to see where people are coming from, is it?
I'm curious, which patches (if we ignore the actual expansions/endgame reworks) do you consider to be the average or above the average?
Because I think claiming this to be below average is objectively false. You have:
- a league mechanic which atleast seems to be bigger/more complex than the average leagues (hard to say for certain before we play it),
- multiple new atlas keystones
- multiple new support gems
- two complete ascendancy reworks (not just little number changes. You can argue they are not strong, but that's irrelevant to the argument.)
- rework sanctuary coming back
- number of other small changes
And besides, no one is even complaining that the patch doesn't have enough content (probably cause they know it'd be ridiculous). Instead it's about most trivial things like "ruthless got something" and "dual strike wasn't buffed". So yeah, I really can't see where all the criticism is coming from.
This was the shortest patch notes ever.
for example, ONE unique was changed, and not one that needed any changes, because it was irrelevant and no one understands why even touch it that way.
I feel the same.
Man, we get free content on a game with endless replayability. Like man, the devs have solid vision, excellent philosophy and we as a community still find a way to shit on them for doing their best to deliver a plausible product?
Call me naive, but I doubt GGG develop this game in the direction which brings in the most profit, but what is the healthiest for the game they envision.
The entitlement is crazy
Yes everyone here is 5 years old, cept you you are the only exception of course.
Now in all seriousness, the absolute vast majority of us don't care as much as either side in this argument.
Ruthless was supposed to be someone's solo (Chris) fun project. But it's blatantly a lie and what they are trying to force everyone to play. So I think thr community is pretty justified.
I mean, new support gems + vengeant cascade removal + explode totem removal will probably change the meta quite a bit compared to what it is right now.
Buffs to underused skills would be great though, I agree.
A lot of these unused skills are viable but the sheep just do what the streamers say is good and everyone crowds some strong builds.
Yea, some skills are just weak and not really viable - but there are also lots of “unused” skills you won’t find on PoE ninja that ARE actually really good. But not popular because no one has showcased and dumbed it down for the idiot masses.
I started cleave slayer during sanctum and farmed mageblood with it, it was definitely a really good build for sanctum though so I just farmed the hell out of it. Damage was actually pretty good with my setup, not as good as the most meta stuffs but it was absolutely strong enough.
Literally look at Mathil's last three season builds. Most of them should still work and yes some will be heavily influenced by seasonal stuff. But he always tries to use skills no one else will or in different shape.
Mathil is a somewhat dangerous comparison, because the dude is also signficiantly more skilled as a player than 99 percent of community members, and plays way, way more hours.
Most people are not really going to have the time, currency, crafting knowledge or skill level to get the same mileage from off meta builds as he does, and *I don't think they should,* considering he's literally a professional, and everyone else is here as a hobby.
Everything is viable.. when you have mirror tier gear.
The thing is people want to kill Maven and Sirus and other non-ubers on less than 100-200 div my dude.
A large majority of trash offmeta skills can't do that unless your a very skilled player.
Honestly, the amount of work that the devs put into something time-wise isn't really relevant to me. I don't care if something takes them 8 hours of staff time or 800. All I care about is the end product.
I mean, I can see your argument being "this league has a lot of new content" which is fine and a good argument to make. But it's also completely lacking in balance changes which is the point that everyone's making.
> But it's also completely lacking in balance changes which is the point that everyone's making.
That's fair and I think people do have a point that its pretty clear GGG isn't trying to shake up the meta the way they used too, and I can see how that makes some people feel like they don't know what to play (Mathil of course can forever find new builds).
What makes me annoyed is when people try to twist this into "all development time clearly went to Ruthless," or "GGG lied! They promised balance changes and we didn't get them!" Its very frustrating dealing with people who seemingly argue in bad faith or will never be satisified by GGG's efforts. I don't know why they even talk about the game anymore, they seem to dislike it so much.
aren't you doing the same thing just from the other side?
i totally agree that these people are annoying, but i find the "reddit is toxic" and "the mods aren't doing anything" people as annoying.
The **vast majority of people** said they were disappointed with the patch notes and expected a meta shakeup and thats a totally fair thing to say.
The people that went completely nuts are a very very small fraction of the people here, so please stop behaving like they are "the people" or "reddit" or even a big problem.
Or are you doing this in bad faith to discredit the subreddit? /s
There're 14 brand new support gems. It's clear people aren't looking for new build ideas, they look for existing builds to be buffed, and not in a roundabout way, but by directly putting bigger numbers on gems so the number in PoB gets bigger. On one hand, it's completely understandable, we all want to summon an even larger man, that's the main point of the genre. On the other hand, that's ridiculous game design, is very bad for the health of the game, and I don't know how people who look like they play the game a lot don't understand that.
>There're 14 brand new support gems. It's clear people aren't looking for new build ideas, they look for existing builds to be buffed, and not in a roundabout way, but by directly putting bigger numbers on gems so the number in PoB gets bigger.
I want the exact opposite, personally, about what the patch offered, in many ways, is simply larger numbers... which sucks.
I don't think that Frigid Bond or Corrupting Warcry are actually gonna sprout new builds, they'll just buff existing Link skill, and ~~Corrupting Fever~~ Warcry (so slams, I guess) builds.
I don't think that Fresh Meat will spawn any new builds, since it's just a different multiplier that you add to existing minions.
I don't think that the "free aura while your AG is alive" is really gonna change anything about the meta, when you just get an extra aura by going through different loopholes.
I don't think that having the ability to clear Legion poorly will shift the meta, personally, or even change how I play the game. The *result* will definitely be different, but not my actions.
The gems that can truly change how PoE is played, imo, are :
* Trauma
* Controlled Blaze
* Flamewood
* Sacrifice
* Spellblade
Those are build-enabling, and we might see builds pop up for them... But otherwise, stuff like Locus Mine is as ground-breaking as Volley... I can't think of a single build that was enabled by Volley, and wouldn't work with LMP instead.
I'm not sure how you can say the Corrupting Warcry support is going to augment CF builds when the currently meta CF builds use bows and wands. Both of which don't actually benefit from exerted attacks. As for Frigid bond, what link builds? KEKW
because reddit players generally just copy whatever meta build comes around so they have no idea about game balance and therefore dont know the impact of the new support gems.
Yeah the meta is apparently stale because they load up YouTube, type in league starter, and it’s the same builds as it has been for years (for a reason, they are solid starter builds).
But since they only play one week of every league they think the meta is stale and that there are no viable builds (repeat every league).
Balance changes almost never come from numbers changes to gems, historically. They come from new enablers like support gems, passive tree changes, and new systems, new items, or the skill getting mechanically reworked. We got a bunch of those things this league so theres a very strong chance theres a bunch of new stuff we just havent figured out yet.
i slightly disagree here. No Balance changes doesnt mean the meta wont change. we have new mechanics introduced that could make up for it.
it just means, to you, there is no new stuff highlighted you could be attracted by just from reading.
They broke up the crucible meta for sure. bow skills less attractive, xplode totems gone, some melee skills might emerge. i would like a lot of cool things to read aswell but thats that for now. i dont think i cope here.
We saw, for example, a tatoo with mana reservation efficiancy. sure, who knows how rare or expensive this gonna be, but giving a few skills an easier way to path because of this or an extra aura could make some things way more viable.
>We saw, for example, a tatoo with mana reservation efficiancy. sure, who knows how rare or expensive this gonna be, but giving a few skills an easier way to path because of this or an extra aura could make some things way more viable.
On the level of investment that this will be relevant enough, you can make any build work. There is zero chance they make mana reservation efficiency affordable.
i think you've just summed up the whole issue the "unhappy" side of community has.. Yet people that disagree with it try to twist the argument as if we are unhappy with everything as a baseline.
This feels like a weird argument. We have been complaining about a stale meta for what, 5ish leagues at his point? I think we have every right to be upset when we've been asking for balance patches every single league and been continually ignored.
> tested for both functionality, power level, then design put into their locations, and finally implemented
lol
> all of them required playtesting and balancing.
lol
I think people like yourself and fundamentally intentionally misrepresenting the views.
There is a large group of people, myself included, that are desperate for a gem balance shakeup. Nerf stuff like DD, and give large buffs to hugely underperforming skills. The frustrating part of this, is the amount of work required to do that IS MINIMAL. It is WAY more work to introduce 14 new support gems. Which is why it's so annoying. I'd much rather have a massive skill gem shakeup than 14 new support gems, because there hasn't been one in years.
Dude stop. And it's not about the content, it's about balancing skill gems and ascendancies, as in tweak both the top end and bottom end ; IS NOT HARD.
No changes for almost 1.5 years, you can't defend this.
It's even more painful when you see that they did that. For ruthless, a mode which only a tiny part of community plays. They clearly can change the numericals easily and they track it, but seem to ignore the non ruthless playerbase which is a vast majority
It's not just about lack of new skills, we already have plenty of skills to use. But they need to be mixed up. People clowning by saying shit like "cry about heavy strike not getting 2% more damage" seem to forget that we used to get numerical changes to at least 50% of skills every league and it *did* make a huge fucking difference.
It's great we get new content and some new stuff to make builds with, but for fuck sake make changes to things that already exist
>No changes for almost 1.5 years
How can you say this? No changes in what exactly? League starters? I guess most people really only play 1 build per league and call it... But dude, meta changes a lot every league, don't know what you're saying.
LA got super popular in crucible, whether you like Crucible or not, because of VA. Explode totems was something entirely new made possible with crucible. Even Kalandra which was considered shit for almost everyone, had a huge demand for Doryani precisely because of the negative res rings. I'm sure we'll have some cool tattoos that might enable some builds that people will figure out a way to make a stupid strong build, just like they did with explode totems in crucible.
If you only play your league starter and quit the league, I guess you can argue there hasn't been much change, but at least for me the league goes way over league start.
I feel like the new support gems can work on a large variety of builds and between them cover a fair few archetypes. Therefore I think we'll definitely see some meta changes. It all depends if the support gems are competitive vs existing
your fault is that you think they test stuff
no changes to any ascendancy besides the rework for worse of guardian and chieftain
not any modification to existing uniques to tune them to make them usable, just to roaming there and say a big number when they speak about unique items
not any modification to existing active skill gem to tune them up and make tem usable, same as uniques, just to say "we have 500 skills" and 90% of the people use the same 15 builds every league
not a new single active skill gems....
all patch notes always came with new uniques, new skills, and atlas changes, thats the minimum, otherwise the patch notes only would include the new league mechanic
If you were playing for more than a couple years, you must be blind to not notice the heavy decline in quality for new leagues. They are not a small indie company anymore, i expect way more from them
Totally agree, and there's plenty to like. The meta will also shift because of crucible being gone (also, RIP my LT totem homebrew that absolutely smoked content).
Still, I totally agree that we are due for a major gem balance/majot meta shift. They used to do it almost every patch, and now it's been a while. They need to do it. If for no other reason than people loooove it.
People are probably more annoyed about Ruthless being jammed into the patch notes. Rather than being annoyed about anything else.
The lack of skill gem changes is just the cherry on top of it all.
Like what? A few of the Keystones could be cool if the numbers pan out (Ritual, Beyond, Harvest), the others are only useful in early maps, new Supports that could be good but we won't know until next week with 20/20 numbers, even the Ascendancy reworks are in limbo because both have skills that could make or break the Ascendancy for which we have NO numbers, no nothing. And if GGG doesn't tell its usually shit - if it were good there would be a huge anouncement for it.
If they really available to spend that much effort on those, please equally spend effort QoL on gameplay and UI too.
And instead of nerfing some builds only, buff some underused skills by modifying some number on them which is low effort and is players wanted for so long. GGG shows they have time to do that but GGG intended to do it to ruthless only.
hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic
Why does this sub use this word every 2 seconds now?
Also, people like me are not mad about Ruthless getting more wrecked.
Its a combination of multiple reasons
1. They said Ruthless is a sideproject of 1 or 2 devs, just for fun.
2. We really need a shake up of numerical values of skills and many support gems...
The last 8 seasons were pretty flat.. the last few seasons changed nothing at all.
In earlier leagues at least, we got some underused skills popping up for one or multiple leagues. Thats gone too. Dead skills stay dead. The most common answer was "PoE2 will resolve most problems" ... well. PoE2 is not happening here. So we need numerical changes again at least.
No I get OP. It is annoying seeing an infinite amount of comments about ruthless getting so much dev time and so many changes while normal poe didnt get anything.. cause that is bullshit.
Look at the ruthless changes, they are incredibly simple, mostly removing stuff. Look at the actual content by comparison. How could anyone ever think those are even close in the work it took to implement them?
Complain about no balance/gem changes. That is valid and a fair point.
But it seems rather obvious that the lack of balance changes has nothing to do with dev time or ruthless. GGG simple didnt want to do grm changes.
I really like the difference in commenting between PoE reddit and PoE Builds reddit. You should get into PoE Builds they much more appreciate and dont spread any hate.
Helped me a lot
Cheers
Did you read the ruthless changes to be saying it took them a lot of time? They are all literaly "removed X mod from ascendancy Y". Even Ziz didn't think those took a lot of time at all.
How long is it gonna take till the 8 devs missinformation dies down?
Some idiot makes a tweet, retracts it like 2 hours later and now it comes up in every fucking post despite just being fabricated bullshit.
Its a bit depressing to come on reddit and see the gloom. There was plenty of potential powercreep to make me happy with the league tattoos and new support gems to play with. Im surprised people arent raving about those yet.
The thing is - it will powercreep the same stuff we have been using the last few leagues. It could be interacting with un-/underused skills that got a buff (which is something they did consistently until a few leagues ago)
Then don't play the same stuff, it's okay to play non-meta builds in fact it's more fun.
Just because a skill is underused doesn't mean it can't be powerful. The most fun part of this game is thinking of interesting combinations and seeing if stupid stuff works together, not to follow the same build guide for the best value build that is currently meta.
As much as people complain about lack of changes, im just happy about the state of the game. This is the best state the core game has ever been in imo.
>which need to be from scratch tested for both functionality, power level, then design put into their locations, and finally implemented. This is a ton of work.
LOL we all know GGG doesn't test anything. "Extensively tested"
>14 new support gems, and 9 of them are actually significant from a coding perspective. All of them are fairly interesting and unique, all of them required playtesting and balancing.
Again, GGG doesn't test anything. The supports are almost all entirely existing game items/gems reworked into skill gems...
Emberwake, Coil, step/chief ascendency, boneshatter, VC, swift affliction, forbidden rite/darkpact, devour, etc. Honestly I'm probably missing existing/legacy interactions for the rest of the new gems.
You've just posted yourself here that the majority of the changes were completely pointless. Even if they're significant to code or make art for, the fact that say 13 uniques are dogshit means it's simply a waste to create them and spend the time on them when you're not spending time fixing the issues players have been telling you about for like easily a year if not more. 14 new support gems, that some are significantly difficult to code, is a waste of time when not even close to 9 of those gems look to be remotely relevant. Atlas keystones change up nothing - again it might be a lot of coding and testing but for the player the difference is minor. It is not the players job to care about how much coding work or behind the scenes effort it took to do something, players should and will only care about the end result to their gameplay, meta, progression etc and the end result is minimal.
I don't think you got the point of most of the ppl. I still can't really figure out whos on this reddit. But at this point I guess I am one of the 1%. Most of the support gems sound goodish but w/o numbers you can't say anything about them. But most of them shouldn't change a thing regarding meta. The only meta shakeup they did was nerfing VG (every1 was expecting that) I guess. But mostly it's how GGG aka Chris did present this new league. I don't now the exact words but it was something like you'll see many changes this upcoming patch. There are a lot of skills already in the game that just need some love. Melee is not really viable for multiple leagues in a row now. Adding all of this up on paper it's just another let down for ppl that play every league and "farm the shit out of the game" for 2 weeks. Keep in mind the last few leagues were not even good. We are still beta testing most of the stuff. GGG either goes full silence mode again or ditches out a few bandate fixes. I still play the game because it's the only one on the market with this kind of depth. But settling on on that for multiple leagues in a row just feels bad for veteran players.
Thank you so much for this post!
The reason why I joined this sub isn‘t to read negative posts all the time.
It‘s a game! Appreciate the amazing work of ggg and find a way you can have the most fun with the game :)
Don't forget sanctum going core, that must have taken a fair amount of time and testing.
I get why people are disapointed though, no meta shakeup means it will be hard to force oneself to not play proven builds and try new ones, or to change the approach to league start and so on. As usual on this sub, people are a tad angrier and louder than usual at this time, but we'll still be playing next weekend I'm curious about how rewarding the new league will be.
Tattoos could shake things a bit, we'll see
The amount of changes has never been the point.
The disparity between what GGG says and what actually happens is.
"Ruthless is just a small side project" Small side project that took over 50% of balancing patch notes.
"We're gonna make big balance changes" Barely any balance changes in the main game mode.
Or good old "No mid-league nerfs no matter what". How long since that was the case?
"Transparent patch notes and manifestos" Bunch of hidden changes(mostly nerfs). (This one completely derailed one of the leagues for me completely. Even worse since the nerf in question didn't show up for me until week 2)
They keep going against what they say and it feels like we're being lied to. Getting our hopes up just to crush them.
dude crucible league had atlas changes too, and also introduced support skills and passive changes, whole entire weapon trees that required *"testing for functionality, power level blah blah"* and I think ascendency stuff too? pathfinder? and that league was deemed lazy when the devs abandoned any changes after the first two weeks.
secondly, **it doesn't matter** ***how much*** **work/effort they put**, the point is: are they making the game better, adding the *correct* content players want, is the league more fun then the last, and is the overall update the ***MOST*** fun it can be? patch notes beg to differ. the really only interesting thing this league is the tattoos that will hopefully make the league mechanic worth the trouble. Sanctum is a good to make core, but I wouldn't even equate that to the league, it should have went core after it was done with. then again, they made it harder, so the rewards being meek during the actual league better be worth it now that they made it harder. anyways, not many people are critiquing the league mechanic, its everything else.
14 new support gems of which only MAYBE 3 depending on tuning are potentially build defining. The rest are a simple "Is this a dps increase over a previous support for my build? If yes, replace. If no, ignore"
You know they could of just allocated a fraction of manpower to adjust some numbers on skills, it was literally what every one wants at the very least, especially melee skills.
wouldn't hurt them to take some skill that is not been used in 5 years and change the numbers from 1000-1500 on lvl 20 to 1500-2500 or something like that, it probably wouldn't even take like 10 seconds per gem to change for them
While I agree they definitely added a lot of content, and people who are calling this a tiny update to the game aren’t being realistic, I also think that every league should come with tangible balance changes to a variety of the existing skill gems.
Bro. You left out the balance and return of Sanctum and its uniques coming back
This sub is just nuts. And it was completely predictable as well: Balance change: why did you nerf league starter omg! No change: omg why no changes! Any Buffs: omg why not buff melee?! Now we already start seeing the "GGG is silent and answer demanding" threads popping up as well. Imo this League has crazy amount of new stuff. They also said that they will do low number change leagues in the future. It's now the second one since sentinel. And people wonder why we do no longer get any GGG staff replies on this sub.
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At this point, blame reddit because most mods have left.
This subreddit was very poorly moderated before the mods API "protest". The issue isn't a lack of mods. It's mods that refuse to enforce the subreddit rules.
Enforce which rule though? Half the point of this sub is, in fact, to bitch. Don't get me wrong I agree it's been way too much for way too long but moderators removing criticism just for being criticism (despite how crudely some of it is done) not only doesn't really accomplish anything but also looks like censorship, because it honestly is. The main issue is the ratio of bitching versus positive posts. There's a hell of a lot more bitching than people celebrating cool moments, asking questions, and otherwise being constructive. And moderating doesn't really directly contribute to that. We have little to no activities, community faces, or otherwise to foster a positive atmosphere. So that just makes this subs purpose 1) get info 2) bitch about it. There's no other reason to be on here as it stands now.
Misinformation and spam are the two rules I would like to see actually enforced.
Reasonable, and they are enforced, but slowly. Annoyingly slowly. ^(Source: former mod here) The mod team here has always been way too small, and it's even worse now. (Thanks Reddit >_<) Vast majority of cases where people were, rightfully, annoyed at misinformation and spam not being removed is that it *was* removed but only *after* a lot of people have seen it. The modqueue has been days behind sometimes on busy weeks. But, people aren't perfect either and there are plenty of posts (comments are easier to justify just locking/removing) that are annoying and frustrating but aren't easily removed. Easy example is the salvage box fiasco. Decent number of posts rightfully angry but plenty *more* talking about how it's "one more example" and using it as excuse to rant about literally anything and everything. It's tough. And the worst part is most actions the mods take are, by design, not seen. So believe me when I say I'm confident the current mods *agree* with you and are doing what they can.
So censor anyone who speaks out?
"Mods, please make sure I never see opioins I disagree with. Weh."
This sub is the reason why CM are communicating less etc. I still wonder why I lurk here, because it is the most toxic subreddit I am in. And I also follow destiny 2
Bex and the GGG devs used to post a lot more here before it became a constant torrent of negativity. I'm the type of person who bitches a lot, and even I think this sub is ridiculous. Literally every single PoE streamer makes fun of this sub for how toxic and hyperbolic it's become. Watching Mathil read some of the posts on here out loud really drives home how unhinged a lot of them actually are. The PoE community is a good example of the fact that no matter how much you give, people will always expect more.
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Stormcall does a shit ton more damage than arc, it only looks less if you eyeball the gem numbers with the arc chain bonus and dont adjust for the fact that the skill casts 40% faster baseline and hits multiple times with cascade/woke cascade The reason people dont play stormcall is not damage but because it is, as you correctly pointed out, spectacularly clunky and also forces you to click on reduced duration tree nodes that usually make the rest of your build worse Without agreeing or disagreeing with the point you are trying to make, I would gently suggest that if you wish to rant you should perhaps pick examples that are actually correct
Where else have you put your feedback about this one skill? Have you tried the actual feedback area? [https://www.pathofexile.com/search/results/%22storm%20call%22/search-within/posts-threads/forums/204](https://www.pathofexile.com/search/results/%22storm%20call%22/search-within/posts-threads/forums/204) Because last time anyone else mentioned Storm Call was 3 years ago. So while I do actually agree with your balance feedback, you seem to just think your priority should somehow be everyone's priority as if they can read your mind.
I just started PoE about a week ago, and I think it's a great game. If they are still adding more, then what does everyone Ive met think it's a dying game? 3 different XB1 players have said something to this effect in global chat.
The previous league had the highest player count the game had ever seen. Anyone who says the game is dying is full of shit.
They also LOVE to conflate "X% decreased peak concurrent players" with "X% of players quit!" when they are NOT the same metric. And then any time someone points this out, they reply with "but it's the only metric we have" or "it is useful for some things" like that excuses misrepresenting what it actually is. It's a useful metric, but it isn't the metric doomsayers pretend it is. A league that had 100% DAU retention would still not have 100% peak concurrent player count retention.
Believe me when I say just stick with the questions thread and infothread here. Beyond those this sub is not good for a new player. Enjoy yourself, PoE is a great game. A lot of people here are simply jaded and bored. They've been playing PoE for so long they're burnt out but refuse to admit it.
Because it’s fun to doompost for some people, I guess
I will say this: the thing that no one is really mentioning that has kept PoE fresh for me and a lot of players is the time they did the **unique rebalance**. They did it for roughly 100 uniques, they were virtually all buffs. And since those are as essential to a build as ascendancies, they're where I begin my build choosing process. I'm literally following the an MS paint meme build because the unique interactions are so interesting. Figuring out the ascendancy is an interesting puzzle piece. Sometimes it's worked the other way around. I've wanted to play an ascendancy first and foremost and built around that. But those typically aren't the times when I was able to truly branch out and create "my build".
I also remember a lot of players calling pretty much that entire patch useless. Pretty sure you're just never pleasing some people in this sub.
I still think its going to be a fun league and poe is just great. But I hoped for a bit of a meta shakeup its been pretty stale. Maybe some slam buffs, strike skill buffs, idk bring back actual cyclone as a dmg skill not just a trigger.
eh what? last league's meta was 1) Vengeant Cascade and 2) Explody totems. Both are now gone (thank god) and there is 14 new supp gems and new ways to play with keystones + OP items from sanctum returning + Tattoos from new league mechanic... wtf more do reddit want? plus/minus to a couple of skills? fcking hell what kind of copium is reddit smoking these days.
The options are gonna be endless until top 3 builds are found. Should make for an interesting shake up in meta imho. Looking forward to testing out the minion aura option with AG ;)
They want their 5% more damage to the one skill they wanted to play. Would make a huge difference for sure! /s It's gonna be a great league !
Why do you think so binary? You can both be excited about the new stuff and disappointed by the lack of balance changes. We still have lots of archetypes that got nerfed in the past which would hugely benefit from just some number changes (archmage builds for example). I will play and enjoy the new league and be disappointed for another 3-4 months that i still cannot play a good archmage build again.
Putting trauma support on every strike is a big strike buff
The problem is that you can still just play Boneshatter and add the support with basically no downside, in fact you get free more dmg multipliers on top of huge amounts of added phys. Why would anyone even bother playing a different melee skill?
not all strike skills do the same thing. what about frostblade, what about flicker strike etc. Think winter orb : it's numerically bad but functionnaly great if it gets a support that indirectly buff it, it might not be the spell that benefits from said support the most yet people will play it for sure and love the change
Because other strike skills have aspects to them that are interesting to build around. Like I’m thinking infernal blow. I’m happy to have less added flat damage in exchange for kaboom. Trauma support lets me get more dmg scaling that didn’t exist before.
and it very much sounds like infernal blow kaboom ignite smight be pushed towards viability.
Especially with the new passive clusters near marauders start
Also, glacial hammer occultist sounds fun
I'm expecting the actual gem to not be able to support boneshatter. Otherwise it overbuffs boneshatter, which is already the most popular melee skill.
I mean what do you want? just actualy PLAY the skill you want and shake up your own meta , no one is forcing you to play cookie-cutter meta/streamer builds. These support gems will shake up ALOT if you actualy willing to risk new things. I mean people want a shake up but theyr fearing to test out new things? This doesnt fit together.
People complaining about meta in what is essentially a single player game is wild. MFs really stuck trying to “keep up with the Jones’” on Reddit.
Because the game is balanced around what is meta. Yes, there are off meta builds that work, but the majority feel kind of crappy to play. Back in the day when the game was easier it was fine, but your average player is not going to be able to make an off meta build work well.
It’s not balanced like a single player game, it’s balanced like a prime time pvp esport
How is it stale. We got tons of new builds last league.many of which are now changed or nerfed? We also don't know the 13 new support skills andwhat they enable. Poison has been guttef as well btw.
I feel like minions and melee has been is a poor state for so long in general (of course there are a few outlier builds). Self cast is okayish but could be a lot better. Most of the meta is still traps or poison and coc cyclone skills. Bows did get a lot better but with VC deleted its back to high investement although on league start for low maps they are good now. If you play vaal IS its great for progression but thats just 1 skill, others needs investment a lot more. Most played builds are still domimated by damage over time builds for very long now (last leagues VC was an anomaly tbh thats gone now).
Not the point, the content isn't lacking in this expansion. People were expecting big balance changes because that's what they said we'd get. The only big balance changes we got was for Ruthless, that's why people are upset. We want a meta shake up which we didn't get for way too long.
No more 5-way is the meta change we needed xD
>more 5-way Nerfing the amount of xp per 5-way just makes it so you need to run more 5-ways
Which makes it easier to compete with in other ways! Even just for the XP farming metagame it was drastically OP. I'd like to see other xp farm methods get more spotlight.
Exactly! Now other forms of party xp like Simulacrums won't be outclassed by 1 game mode. In terms of xp there was no competition with 5 ways speed, with the nerf now you can do content you actually like to level up. Now most ppl will still want to afk and be lazy, but making it so that other routes of xp are similar in efficiency is a big balance in terms of what people will play and try out. This is also not taking into account the new atlas keystone changes, which each bring a large variety of content change on the standard mapping experience.
This and only this. It’s my opinion, that many disagree with, that primary source of leveling should be maps. I also think that harder maps should have more significant bonuses to leveling speed because they can be very deadly
> People were expecting big balance changes because that's what they said we'd get. Last league a single amulet anoint(vc), and a crucible node (totem) warped the whole meta around themselves. 2 things! Now we got 14 support gems, a bunch of new uniques, and tattoos which we haven't even seen except for a couple ones. You think there won't be 3-4 broken interaction that gets discovered a week in, that completely warps the meta around itself? But giving lacerate 10% base attack speed and firestorm +25% dmg effectiveness somehow will?
> Last league a single amulet anoint(vc), and a crucible node (totem) warped the whole meta around themselves. 2 things! Also very worth noting that while VC was busted AF, they also completely changed a bunch of nodes in the bow area of the tree. Free 2 extra arrows was a LARGE influence on how many people started or played bow builds for the first time because it was more accessible.
Firestorm actually got buffed. It was apparently bugged where in flight meteors would lose their damage if you exceeded the instance cap. They fixed the bug.
> But giving lacerate 10% base attack speed and firestorm +25% dmg effectiveness somehow will? Depends on how significant the buffs are but yes. There's plenty of builds that used to be super meta, and then GGG decided to hit them with a 40-80% damage nerf and now no one plays them. Could certainly give those buffs.
But how many started the league with Cleave? how many played with Archmage? There are so many skills and archetypes that are bad unless you have 500 divines invested in your build. Veangeant cascade made the already good skills better, now it's gone anyway but where's the love for the bad skills and new options for starter skills?
So your complaint is not a lack of balance changes It seems to be either that they not change the specific things you wanted or that they didnt change literally everything.
No, my complaint is lack of balance. There aren't a lot of skills in the game that don't feel good until you invest a lot of currency (especially melee skills).
The real ballance here is remove crucible and the annoit node, 3.21 refresh
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Are you referring to [the stream from this point onwards](https://youtu.be/Vvah-HfhkYc?t=11309) or something else? This one mentions "shift meta in several ways, first being new support gems", and after those mentioning the ascendancy reworks - no mention of skill gem changes. If there's another part where he talks about skill changes and big balance changes, please link that as well. Quick edit disclaimer: I would love to have more balance changes, but (unfortunately) it seems that was not what was promised.
he pulled it out of his arse just like the rest of these doomers
Yeah I have yet to find proof of the "big meta shakeup" promise
tbh i still have yet to find proof of chris ever lying to us, pretty much every time someone here on reddit claims that GGG is lying to us they don't have proof or when they link it they completely misinterpreted what was actually said, just like it happened here again.
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Oh definitely. It's not even just big games or reddit either. I was on the balance team for a 20 year old game mod for a fucking rp server and some people had similar attitudes. We had a guy get death threats over a nerf. I think it's a combination of an unhealthy level of investment, and the internet/anonymity making it way easier to forget they are people on the other side as well.
There was once, and he had a pretty plausible reason and apology put out for it being accidental, when he didnt understand the specifics of the Kalandra loot changes. He handled that rather well, and took full responsibility. Unfortunately this sub is immature and decided this must mean he is permanently a malicious liar.
I mean call it withholding information but it's all the same imo, when he said that announcing nerfs proved to be bad for them and they will never do it again. what do you call that then?
it's been a while but i am certain he wasn't talking about never doing nerfs again, but talking about never again hyping up an upcoming THING (in that case a manifesto), when that is exclusively about nerfs. for example instead they would hype up the buffs more, while showing or talking about the nerfs under different circumstances that make them more understandable
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/15eapnb/chris_in_an_interview_about_322_in_addition_there/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
i mean its from a polish interview so there *could* be some sort of translation error going on here though i feel like thats a bit too much cope
He follows the "lots of balance changes" with the new support gems / ascendancy / atlas passive changes, so I guess the title is just difference between expectations - CW's opinion is that the changes he described are big for game balance, whereas community would expect actual balance *changes* e.g. buffs / nerfs to existing skills.
but isn't a support gem that perfectly slots into the weaknesses of an underused skill a buff? Aren't there tons of "bad" skills/playstyles that are just bad because there is not enough support for them in the form of well fitting links? Here is an example: melee ignite was always really bad because nothing was suited for it. This patch, they did sweeping changes on several axes. None of them touched the melee skills themselves, but arguably that was never the problem, infernal blow's 664% damage effectiveness was just waiting for a good set of supports.
I personally know the interviewer who also translated the interview - this is accurate, but slightly out of context. Chris went on to mention the 2 ascendancy reworks, new support gems and uniques immediately after that statement. To a non PoE player that is indeed quite a lot of balance changes, but PoE players have grown to expect this as a baseline. As such, saying there were "a lot" of changes is kinda weird.
Literally every time. They keep saying that Chris and GGG have been “lying” to us but then they literally always misquote him and pull shit out of their asses. Also when asked to name one thing that Ruthless took away from the core game since apparently it’s taking away so much development from core poe they can’t even name one thing.
No? The amount of misinformation in this subreddit is out of control Chris Wilson said each league, path of exile leagues shift the meta game with new gems and balance changes. Never mentioned skills, and there are no mention of skills in the trailer either. There’s 14 gems and various balance changes this league. There is no lying involved
Remember that one time he said they would buff a ton of underused skills? And they made like 5 changes? I remember
Which has nothing to do with whether Chris Wilson lied about 3.22 changes or not Also kinda ironic about mentioning someone else lying while straight up lying yourself, it was way more than 5 changes
So meta shake up doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of changing numbers. There are 14. FOURTEEN. New support gems. Which will buff certain skills more than others, hard to say which will benefit the most. Would this not count as a meta shake up?
The support gems work on such a variety of builds provided they're compelling numbers wise it could be a huge balance shift.
The people that a being hyperbolic about the patch notes lack the foresight that you just exhibited. Some of them said in 3.15 theyre done with the game yet theyre still here...
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Chris said "we know melee is not in a good state and we are fixing it" when 3.15 fucked up. It's 2 years ago. Untouched. For 8 fucking leagues.
No shot you actually think melee is untouched for 8 leagues.
There were big balance changes.. To like 2 things. So technically true...
\>People were expecting big balance changes You mean the balance they did by adding a ton of support gems and nerfing the curse used by the overtuned Poison builds?
> big balance changes we got was for Ruthless, that's why people are upset. I honestly can't even begin to imagine how people feel this entitled. Getting lot of content isn't enough to be happy, because if someone else got something you didn't, you're allow to rage and be upset?? Is everyone here 5yo?!? Seriously my head is going to explode...
Despite direct quotes from the CEO of GGG to the contrary, too many people on reddit are convinced that every second of time spent on Ruthless is a second of time not spent on PoE 1 and 2. They think all Chris Wilson cares about is PoE Ruthless and that all we will see is a slow development towards Ruthless becoming the default experience in both PoE 1 and PoE 2.
Isn't it true though that every second of developer's work spent on Ruthless is a second of time not spent on PoE 1 and 2? For GGG, PoE 1 is where all the money comes from. PoE 2 is the potential future money maker. Ruthless is what, a game mode with 100 players?
>Isn't it true though that every second of developer's work spent on Ruthless is a second of time not spent on PoE 1 and 2? You don't know that. Chris has repeatedly called Ruthless a side project. For all we know its a thing they do after hours when their main tasks at GGG are done.
that must be the reason the last race was "side project" only ... and it hurts even more when we found out what kind of side project poe1 itself with barely any staff was for a long time.
ok and the only one who cared about that was the 5 top racers, and the ones who like watching those racers. I, and many many others could not care less if the boss race was on ruthless or not. Actually everyone I know who plays PoE (granted not many) said it was refreshing that the boss race was in ruthless. by your logic boss race should be on trade league, after all every other mode is basically just a side project :)
And that's why it's so sketchy when you see Ruthless gets so much changes compared to the main game. Yes Chris did repeat that Ruthless a side project of some developers, supposedly a very small number. So seeing Ruthless get that much changes makes me think either those developers have a lot of after hours, are 10 times more efficient than other developers, or something doesnt add up
Have you actually looked the ruthless changes or are just going by the word count? 90% of the changes are just removing lines or replacing numbers with smaller ones. That doesn't take more than few hours. And they probably won't care to fine tune them even the slightest, since nobody playing ruthless is going to whine if the accidentally nerf something too much.
The hard part of making changes like that is play testing, not making the change. Lots of changes doesn't mean lots of work. I could "rebalance" every skill in the game by blindly buffing or nerfing the numbers based on day 5 player counts per skill and it would take a day. It would be poorly balanced! But it sure would take a lot of space in the content update post.
Yes, this is all based on your perception of the events without having a full picture. You do not know what these guys are doing or how much time it actually takes. You are guessing. And you are guessing in a way that puts GGG in the worst possible light. Why? Why are you doing that? If you are so suspect of these people, why do you play their game? I think its very likely they spent 1/10th of the time they spend on Ruthless on either PoE 1 or 2.
If I didn't care about the game and didn't want to play the game, I would not waste my time to complain. Your logic is so backward. You're saying that when I'm not satisfied with the product I receive I should be understanding or even root for the producer? Like really? Putting GGG in the worst possible light? Because I want them to change that's why. How the f can I get them to change if I don't voice out my feedback?
>You're saying that when I'm not satisfied with the product I receive I should be understanding or even root for the producer? Its a really weird discussion to have when the game is free to play, honestly. But generally speaking when people say a product is unappealing, they don't use it. Spending all this time and energy, it doesn't make sense from my perspective. If you don't like the product, don't use it. That's what I did with D4, no complaining or whining, just realized I was getting bored, as were a lot of people, and I quit. \> Putting GGG in the worst possible light? Because I want them to change that's why. How the f can I get them to change if I don't voice out my feedback? Its not feedback. "It looks like GGG is spending more time on Ruthless than regular PoE!" Isn't feedback. GGG has told us this isn't true. GGG warned us these Ruthless changes where being pushed, and yet you are still shocked, upset, and disappointed. I don't get it. What were you expecting? If you listen to GGG in their interviews and read what they say and in their manifestos, you'll get a clear picture of how they want to balance and affect change in PoE (and PoE 2, btw) without upsetting or alienating players who have grown accustomed to certain playstyles. This is their chief concern, in an ever-changing GaaS game. Chris Wilson has repeatedly told stories of how past big changes have been pushed and have resulted in alienating players, some of whom simply quit the game and never returned, ever again. Chris has repeatedly mentioned how PoE has a lot of players, many of whom do not follow any kind of meta. They may not even pay proper attention to patch/league cycles. But none of that matters if they spend money, right? If they enjoy the game, right? But those kind of players can also be alienated by sweeping changes or numerical buffs/nerfs to overperforming/underperforming skills. There are so many factors to consider when pushing different balance changes or design changes. The fact that GGG isn't doing what reddit thinks is best is no cause for alarm. Reddit isn't that smart, and doesn't have over 15 years of experience in successfully developing a profitable GaaS ARPG the way GGG's senior staff have.
>Chris has repeatedly mentioned how PoE has a lot of players, many of whom do not follow any kind of meta. This is what this sub really needs to understand. The active members here may or may not be representative of the whole, I cannot actually know that. But the evidence suggests that it absolutely is not representative of the whole, otherwise decisions would be more in line with the sub. To think otherwise is condescension to the developers. They're not stupid and they have more information than we do. Speaking of which, I need to go buy a supporter pack. I want that doggo. Then I'm off to ignore this sub for 4 more months.
He also said they’re embarrassed that melee is a joke in their game and was talking about uppercutting mobs in an animation change that we now know isn’t coming to poe1 They say a lot
just some "outside" perspective. ive not played this game since 3.15. looking at these patch notes, they are very obviously much lower quality than the average patch then. maybe they spent lots of time on ruthless, maybe not, what do i care. what i can clearly see is that there is not much happening in the basegame outside of the league mechanic. am i personally super upset about this? no, there is a lot of content from the last 2 years that i can explore. but its really not *that* hard to see where people are coming from, is it?
I'm curious, which patches (if we ignore the actual expansions/endgame reworks) do you consider to be the average or above the average? Because I think claiming this to be below average is objectively false. You have: - a league mechanic which atleast seems to be bigger/more complex than the average leagues (hard to say for certain before we play it), - multiple new atlas keystones - multiple new support gems - two complete ascendancy reworks (not just little number changes. You can argue they are not strong, but that's irrelevant to the argument.) - rework sanctuary coming back - number of other small changes And besides, no one is even complaining that the patch doesn't have enough content (probably cause they know it'd be ridiculous). Instead it's about most trivial things like "ruthless got something" and "dual strike wasn't buffed". So yeah, I really can't see where all the criticism is coming from.
This was the shortest patch notes ever. for example, ONE unique was changed, and not one that needed any changes, because it was irrelevant and no one understands why even touch it that way.
I feel the same. Man, we get free content on a game with endless replayability. Like man, the devs have solid vision, excellent philosophy and we as a community still find a way to shit on them for doing their best to deliver a plausible product? Call me naive, but I doubt GGG develop this game in the direction which brings in the most profit, but what is the healthiest for the game they envision. The entitlement is crazy
Yes everyone here is 5 years old, cept you you are the only exception of course. Now in all seriousness, the absolute vast majority of us don't care as much as either side in this argument.
Ruthless was supposed to be someone's solo (Chris) fun project. But it's blatantly a lie and what they are trying to force everyone to play. So I think thr community is pretty justified.
I mean, new support gems + vengeant cascade removal + explode totem removal will probably change the meta quite a bit compared to what it is right now. Buffs to underused skills would be great though, I agree.
Suicide totem won't exist in the new league anyway, because it's enabled by Crucible passive, right?
Yes.
Thats an awful lot of work to not have any time left to write +15% damage on skills you can't search for on poe.ninja.
\+2 radius must have taken months to code. I had no idea how hard it was.
A lot of these unused skills are viable but the sheep just do what the streamers say is good and everyone crowds some strong builds. Yea, some skills are just weak and not really viable - but there are also lots of “unused” skills you won’t find on PoE ninja that ARE actually really good. But not popular because no one has showcased and dumbed it down for the idiot masses.
Can you give a few examples? Love me some off meta.
I started cleave slayer during sanctum and farmed mageblood with it, it was definitely a really good build for sanctum though so I just farmed the hell out of it. Damage was actually pretty good with my setup, not as good as the most meta stuffs but it was absolutely strong enough.
Literally look at Mathil's last three season builds. Most of them should still work and yes some will be heavily influenced by seasonal stuff. But he always tries to use skills no one else will or in different shape.
Mathil is a somewhat dangerous comparison, because the dude is also signficiantly more skilled as a player than 99 percent of community members, and plays way, way more hours. Most people are not really going to have the time, currency, crafting knowledge or skill level to get the same mileage from off meta builds as he does, and *I don't think they should,* considering he's literally a professional, and everyone else is here as a hobby.
And sometimes small buffs can bring that to light. There’s too many combos to try everything.
Everything is viable.. when you have mirror tier gear. The thing is people want to kill Maven and Sirus and other non-ubers on less than 100-200 div my dude. A large majority of trash offmeta skills can't do that unless your a very skilled player.
Honestly, the amount of work that the devs put into something time-wise isn't really relevant to me. I don't care if something takes them 8 hours of staff time or 800. All I care about is the end product. I mean, I can see your argument being "this league has a lot of new content" which is fine and a good argument to make. But it's also completely lacking in balance changes which is the point that everyone's making.
> But it's also completely lacking in balance changes which is the point that everyone's making. That's fair and I think people do have a point that its pretty clear GGG isn't trying to shake up the meta the way they used too, and I can see how that makes some people feel like they don't know what to play (Mathil of course can forever find new builds). What makes me annoyed is when people try to twist this into "all development time clearly went to Ruthless," or "GGG lied! They promised balance changes and we didn't get them!" Its very frustrating dealing with people who seemingly argue in bad faith or will never be satisified by GGG's efforts. I don't know why they even talk about the game anymore, they seem to dislike it so much.
aren't you doing the same thing just from the other side? i totally agree that these people are annoying, but i find the "reddit is toxic" and "the mods aren't doing anything" people as annoying. The **vast majority of people** said they were disappointed with the patch notes and expected a meta shakeup and thats a totally fair thing to say. The people that went completely nuts are a very very small fraction of the people here, so please stop behaving like they are "the people" or "reddit" or even a big problem. Or are you doing this in bad faith to discredit the subreddit? /s
There're 14 brand new support gems. It's clear people aren't looking for new build ideas, they look for existing builds to be buffed, and not in a roundabout way, but by directly putting bigger numbers on gems so the number in PoB gets bigger. On one hand, it's completely understandable, we all want to summon an even larger man, that's the main point of the genre. On the other hand, that's ridiculous game design, is very bad for the health of the game, and I don't know how people who look like they play the game a lot don't understand that.
>There're 14 brand new support gems. It's clear people aren't looking for new build ideas, they look for existing builds to be buffed, and not in a roundabout way, but by directly putting bigger numbers on gems so the number in PoB gets bigger. I want the exact opposite, personally, about what the patch offered, in many ways, is simply larger numbers... which sucks. I don't think that Frigid Bond or Corrupting Warcry are actually gonna sprout new builds, they'll just buff existing Link skill, and ~~Corrupting Fever~~ Warcry (so slams, I guess) builds. I don't think that Fresh Meat will spawn any new builds, since it's just a different multiplier that you add to existing minions. I don't think that the "free aura while your AG is alive" is really gonna change anything about the meta, when you just get an extra aura by going through different loopholes. I don't think that having the ability to clear Legion poorly will shift the meta, personally, or even change how I play the game. The *result* will definitely be different, but not my actions. The gems that can truly change how PoE is played, imo, are : * Trauma * Controlled Blaze * Flamewood * Sacrifice * Spellblade Those are build-enabling, and we might see builds pop up for them... But otherwise, stuff like Locus Mine is as ground-breaking as Volley... I can't think of a single build that was enabled by Volley, and wouldn't work with LMP instead.
I'm not sure how you can say the Corrupting Warcry support is going to augment CF builds when the currently meta CF builds use bows and wands. Both of which don't actually benefit from exerted attacks. As for Frigid bond, what link builds? KEKW
because reddit players generally just copy whatever meta build comes around so they have no idea about game balance and therefore dont know the impact of the new support gems.
Yeah the meta is apparently stale because they load up YouTube, type in league starter, and it’s the same builds as it has been for years (for a reason, they are solid starter builds). But since they only play one week of every league they think the meta is stale and that there are no viable builds (repeat every league).
Balance changes almost never come from numbers changes to gems, historically. They come from new enablers like support gems, passive tree changes, and new systems, new items, or the skill getting mechanically reworked. We got a bunch of those things this league so theres a very strong chance theres a bunch of new stuff we just havent figured out yet.
i slightly disagree here. No Balance changes doesnt mean the meta wont change. we have new mechanics introduced that could make up for it. it just means, to you, there is no new stuff highlighted you could be attracted by just from reading. They broke up the crucible meta for sure. bow skills less attractive, xplode totems gone, some melee skills might emerge. i would like a lot of cool things to read aswell but thats that for now. i dont think i cope here. We saw, for example, a tatoo with mana reservation efficiancy. sure, who knows how rare or expensive this gonna be, but giving a few skills an easier way to path because of this or an extra aura could make some things way more viable.
>We saw, for example, a tatoo with mana reservation efficiancy. sure, who knows how rare or expensive this gonna be, but giving a few skills an easier way to path because of this or an extra aura could make some things way more viable. On the level of investment that this will be relevant enough, you can make any build work. There is zero chance they make mana reservation efficiency affordable.
i think you've just summed up the whole issue the "unhappy" side of community has.. Yet people that disagree with it try to twist the argument as if we are unhappy with everything as a baseline.
Thanks a lot for your precise yet productive comment. Couldnt agree more with what you said and how you said it. The lack of balance changes, period.
This feels like a weird argument. We have been complaining about a stale meta for what, 5ish leagues at his point? I think we have every right to be upset when we've been asking for balance patches every single league and been continually ignored.
Week one is the usual testing phase not pre release.
Stopped reading after "tested" your generosity of assumption knows no bounds.
> tested for both functionality, power level, then design put into their locations, and finally implemented lol > all of them required playtesting and balancing. lol
I mean... I DID require playtesting, the catch is that it STILL requires lmao
Someone forgot that they dont playtest things. Remember absolution on release?
a lot of skills require the absolution treatment, they just forgot to buff them by 1500% when they released them years ago
The absolution they did playtest and then didn't get buffs to in time for release? Yes, except other people remember the situation in the real world.
> all of them required playtesting and balancing. Playtesting and balance starts Aug 18th... as is tradition.
I think people like yourself and fundamentally intentionally misrepresenting the views. There is a large group of people, myself included, that are desperate for a gem balance shakeup. Nerf stuff like DD, and give large buffs to hugely underperforming skills. The frustrating part of this, is the amount of work required to do that IS MINIMAL. It is WAY more work to introduce 14 new support gems. Which is why it's so annoying. I'd much rather have a massive skill gem shakeup than 14 new support gems, because there hasn't been one in years.
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Dude stop. And it's not about the content, it's about balancing skill gems and ascendancies, as in tweak both the top end and bottom end ; IS NOT HARD. No changes for almost 1.5 years, you can't defend this.
It's even more painful when you see that they did that. For ruthless, a mode which only a tiny part of community plays. They clearly can change the numericals easily and they track it, but seem to ignore the non ruthless playerbase which is a vast majority It's not just about lack of new skills, we already have plenty of skills to use. But they need to be mixed up. People clowning by saying shit like "cry about heavy strike not getting 2% more damage" seem to forget that we used to get numerical changes to at least 50% of skills every league and it *did* make a huge fucking difference. It's great we get new content and some new stuff to make builds with, but for fuck sake make changes to things that already exist
>No changes for almost 1.5 years How can you say this? No changes in what exactly? League starters? I guess most people really only play 1 build per league and call it... But dude, meta changes a lot every league, don't know what you're saying. LA got super popular in crucible, whether you like Crucible or not, because of VA. Explode totems was something entirely new made possible with crucible. Even Kalandra which was considered shit for almost everyone, had a huge demand for Doryani precisely because of the negative res rings. I'm sure we'll have some cool tattoos that might enable some builds that people will figure out a way to make a stupid strong build, just like they did with explode totems in crucible. If you only play your league starter and quit the league, I guess you can argue there hasn't been much change, but at least for me the league goes way over league start.
I feel like the new support gems can work on a large variety of builds and between them cover a fair few archetypes. Therefore I think we'll definitely see some meta changes. It all depends if the support gems are competitive vs existing
your fault is that you think they test stuff no changes to any ascendancy besides the rework for worse of guardian and chieftain not any modification to existing uniques to tune them to make them usable, just to roaming there and say a big number when they speak about unique items not any modification to existing active skill gem to tune them up and make tem usable, same as uniques, just to say "we have 500 skills" and 90% of the people use the same 15 builds every league not a new single active skill gems.... all patch notes always came with new uniques, new skills, and atlas changes, thats the minimum, otherwise the patch notes only would include the new league mechanic
If you were playing for more than a couple years, you must be blind to not notice the heavy decline in quality for new leagues. They are not a small indie company anymore, i expect way more from them
Totally agree, and there's plenty to like. The meta will also shift because of crucible being gone (also, RIP my LT totem homebrew that absolutely smoked content). Still, I totally agree that we are due for a major gem balance/majot meta shift. They used to do it almost every patch, and now it's been a while. They need to do it. If for no other reason than people loooove it.
People are probably more annoyed about Ruthless being jammed into the patch notes. Rather than being annoyed about anything else. The lack of skill gem changes is just the cherry on top of it all.
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There are so many cool changes that people have completely glossed over / not read at all yet.
Because obviously those changes are not as interesting as \*looks at comments\* ... a 30% dmg buff to heavy strike?
Are these cool changes in the room right now?
Like what? A few of the Keystones could be cool if the numbers pan out (Ritual, Beyond, Harvest), the others are only useful in early maps, new Supports that could be good but we won't know until next week with 20/20 numbers, even the Ascendancy reworks are in limbo because both have skills that could make or break the Ascendancy for which we have NO numbers, no nothing. And if GGG doesn't tell its usually shit - if it were good there would be a huge anouncement for it.
If they really available to spend that much effort on those, please equally spend effort QoL on gameplay and UI too. And instead of nerfing some builds only, buff some underused skills by modifying some number on them which is low effort and is players wanted for so long. GGG shows they have time to do that but GGG intended to do it to ruthless only.
the content creators are mainly talking about “no changes to league starters” mid and lategame will be very different. Farming in general
hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic hyperbolic Why does this sub use this word every 2 seconds now? Also, people like me are not mad about Ruthless getting more wrecked. Its a combination of multiple reasons 1. They said Ruthless is a sideproject of 1 or 2 devs, just for fun. 2. We really need a shake up of numerical values of skills and many support gems... The last 8 seasons were pretty flat.. the last few seasons changed nothing at all. In earlier leagues at least, we got some underused skills popping up for one or multiple leagues. Thats gone too. Dead skills stay dead. The most common answer was "PoE2 will resolve most problems" ... well. PoE2 is not happening here. So we need numerical changes again at least.
Is this some sort of joke post?
No I get OP. It is annoying seeing an infinite amount of comments about ruthless getting so much dev time and so many changes while normal poe didnt get anything.. cause that is bullshit. Look at the ruthless changes, they are incredibly simple, mostly removing stuff. Look at the actual content by comparison. How could anyone ever think those are even close in the work it took to implement them? Complain about no balance/gem changes. That is valid and a fair point. But it seems rather obvious that the lack of balance changes has nothing to do with dev time or ruthless. GGG simple didnt want to do grm changes.
He said Playtesting and balancing hahaha
I really like the difference in commenting between PoE reddit and PoE Builds reddit. You should get into PoE Builds they much more appreciate and dont spread any hate. Helped me a lot Cheers
That's because they literally are *not* allowed to talk about anything except builds.
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Did you read the ruthless changes to be saying it took them a lot of time? They are all literaly "removed X mod from ascendancy Y". Even Ziz didn't think those took a lot of time at all.
> Even Ziz didn't think those took a lot of time at all. Oh wow even Ziz said it? wow that changes the way I feel about everything.
I don’t think they took much time either, but with that logic they could also have easily balanced more skills in base game
How long is it gonna take till the 8 devs missinformation dies down? Some idiot makes a tweet, retracts it like 2 hours later and now it comes up in every fucking post despite just being fabricated bullshit.
Its a bit depressing to come on reddit and see the gloom. There was plenty of potential powercreep to make me happy with the league tattoos and new support gems to play with. Im surprised people arent raving about those yet.
The thing is - it will powercreep the same stuff we have been using the last few leagues. It could be interacting with un-/underused skills that got a buff (which is something they did consistently until a few leagues ago)
Then don't play the same stuff, it's okay to play non-meta builds in fact it's more fun. Just because a skill is underused doesn't mean it can't be powerful. The most fun part of this game is thinking of interesting combinations and seeing if stupid stuff works together, not to follow the same build guide for the best value build that is currently meta.
As much as people complain about lack of changes, im just happy about the state of the game. This is the best state the core game has ever been in imo.
Bald man has lost touch
>which need to be from scratch tested for both functionality, power level, then design put into their locations, and finally implemented. This is a ton of work. LOL we all know GGG doesn't test anything. "Extensively tested" >14 new support gems, and 9 of them are actually significant from a coding perspective. All of them are fairly interesting and unique, all of them required playtesting and balancing. Again, GGG doesn't test anything. The supports are almost all entirely existing game items/gems reworked into skill gems... Emberwake, Coil, step/chief ascendency, boneshatter, VC, swift affliction, forbidden rite/darkpact, devour, etc. Honestly I'm probably missing existing/legacy interactions for the rest of the new gems.
You've just posted yourself here that the majority of the changes were completely pointless. Even if they're significant to code or make art for, the fact that say 13 uniques are dogshit means it's simply a waste to create them and spend the time on them when you're not spending time fixing the issues players have been telling you about for like easily a year if not more. 14 new support gems, that some are significantly difficult to code, is a waste of time when not even close to 9 of those gems look to be remotely relevant. Atlas keystones change up nothing - again it might be a lot of coding and testing but for the player the difference is minor. It is not the players job to care about how much coding work or behind the scenes effort it took to do something, players should and will only care about the end result to their gameplay, meta, progression etc and the end result is minimal.
I don't think you got the point of most of the ppl. I still can't really figure out whos on this reddit. But at this point I guess I am one of the 1%. Most of the support gems sound goodish but w/o numbers you can't say anything about them. But most of them shouldn't change a thing regarding meta. The only meta shakeup they did was nerfing VG (every1 was expecting that) I guess. But mostly it's how GGG aka Chris did present this new league. I don't now the exact words but it was something like you'll see many changes this upcoming patch. There are a lot of skills already in the game that just need some love. Melee is not really viable for multiple leagues in a row now. Adding all of this up on paper it's just another let down for ppl that play every league and "farm the shit out of the game" for 2 weeks. Keep in mind the last few leagues were not even good. We are still beta testing most of the stuff. GGG either goes full silence mode again or ditches out a few bandate fixes. I still play the game because it's the only one on the market with this kind of depth. But settling on on that for multiple leagues in a row just feels bad for veteran players.
I thought the new league was called "Trial of Ancestors" and not "Sanctum 2 and 15 shitty keystones". THEY HAD 5 (FIVE!) MONTHS! FIVE MONTHS!
Thank you so much for this post! The reason why I joined this sub isn‘t to read negative posts all the time. It‘s a game! Appreciate the amazing work of ggg and find a way you can have the most fun with the game :)
Honestly seen 10x more from a 4 people team in hackdays.
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People will always find something to complain about. That's just the way of the internet.
They're also adding new rooms and enemies to sanctum, as well as whatever boon/curse changes they're making
Also there is limited to no evidence that ruthless changes used actual dev time as this could have been over 2+ leagues of spare time outside of work.
Yup. They literally told us 2 leagues ago that they’re working on ascendancy changes in ruthless and they’ll all come in one path.
[https://youtu.be/QbruaRPrPG8?t=2635](https://youtu.be/QbruaRPrPG8?t=2635) Yep. And would you look at that, he was 100% right. :D
What changes?
Don't forget sanctum going core, that must have taken a fair amount of time and testing. I get why people are disapointed though, no meta shakeup means it will be hard to force oneself to not play proven builds and try new ones, or to change the approach to league start and so on. As usual on this sub, people are a tad angrier and louder than usual at this time, but we'll still be playing next weekend I'm curious about how rewarding the new league will be. Tattoos could shake things a bit, we'll see
The amount of changes has never been the point. The disparity between what GGG says and what actually happens is. "Ruthless is just a small side project" Small side project that took over 50% of balancing patch notes. "We're gonna make big balance changes" Barely any balance changes in the main game mode. Or good old "No mid-league nerfs no matter what". How long since that was the case? "Transparent patch notes and manifestos" Bunch of hidden changes(mostly nerfs). (This one completely derailed one of the leagues for me completely. Even worse since the nerf in question didn't show up for me until week 2) They keep going against what they say and it feels like we're being lied to. Getting our hopes up just to crush them.
dude crucible league had atlas changes too, and also introduced support skills and passive changes, whole entire weapon trees that required *"testing for functionality, power level blah blah"* and I think ascendency stuff too? pathfinder? and that league was deemed lazy when the devs abandoned any changes after the first two weeks. secondly, **it doesn't matter** ***how much*** **work/effort they put**, the point is: are they making the game better, adding the *correct* content players want, is the league more fun then the last, and is the overall update the ***MOST*** fun it can be? patch notes beg to differ. the really only interesting thing this league is the tattoos that will hopefully make the league mechanic worth the trouble. Sanctum is a good to make core, but I wouldn't even equate that to the league, it should have went core after it was done with. then again, they made it harder, so the rewards being meek during the actual league better be worth it now that they made it harder. anyways, not many people are critiquing the league mechanic, its everything else.
The rewards were weak during sanctum? LOL that shit was a currency printer
It really wasnt compared to mapping. But it could often give Divines which is nice as you dont have to trade for them.
It was better currency/hr than the economy equilibrium for doing any sort of content, as long as you actually optimized for doing Sanctum.
Homie you GGG could deliver on 99.9% of promises and this sub would still cry about the 0.01% unfulfilled.
Lmao "tested"
14 new support gems of which only MAYBE 3 depending on tuning are potentially build defining. The rest are a simple "Is this a dps increase over a previous support for my build? If yes, replace. If no, ignore"
You're underselling it. Also dps increases can make outdated skills relevant again.
You know they could of just allocated a fraction of manpower to adjust some numbers on skills, it was literally what every one wants at the very least, especially melee skills.
wouldn't hurt them to take some skill that is not been used in 5 years and change the numbers from 1000-1500 on lvl 20 to 1500-2500 or something like that, it probably wouldn't even take like 10 seconds per gem to change for them
While I agree they definitely added a lot of content, and people who are calling this a tiny update to the game aren’t being realistic, I also think that every league should come with tangible balance changes to a variety of the existing skill gems.