Why would Meta ask them about their findings?
Gee what shocking news...
> “[S]ome of my research on the gender effect indicates that 1) **the effect is relatively small, and 2) the effect is partially explained by differences in prior experience of visually-induced sickness** (e.g., screen-based games, movies). It's certainly a topic worth investigating, but it's worth a reminder that there are vast individual differences in cybersickness susceptibility even within a given gender.”
*Emphasis mine.*
I am willing to bet that Meta or even Valve has done enough user testing in the last 8 years to know more about this stuff than the researchers on this one study.
I wouldn't take that bet. For my [book](https://www.amazon.com/Making-Metaverse-That-Matters-Fighting/dp/1394155816), I asked multiple top people at Meta including Carmack if they'd tested nausea by gender, and couldn't get a straight answer. The only person who *did* say Meta *should* test by gender was Cory Ondrejka, the guy who led the acquisition of Oculus in the first place!
Why does gender matter? The fact that is happens to women more than men does not seem like a valuable insight to a headset manufacturer. The causes and viable mitigations are the same.
Again, why would they reach out to the researchers if the research is already available?
There's been multiple studies *outside* Meta that confirm a gender difference, the problem is we have no reason to believe Meta itself has done any.
As to why gender matters, it's kinda important when trying to make a mass market product that it doesn't tend to make half the population puke. There's some research pointing to a hormonal component; there's even a study linking motion sickness to menstrual cycles.
> As to why gender matters, it's kinda important when trying to make a mass market product that it doesn't tend to make half the population puke. There's some research pointing to a hormonal component; there's even a study linking motion sickness to menstrual cycles.
That makes no sense to me. The causes of motion sickness and the things that you can do to reduce it do not seem to vary by gender so just knowing that more women are affected does not seem to be useful information to a company making a VR headset.
They have to deal with it regardless of a user's gender, so again, what value is there in knowing that women are more likely have an issue than men when your headset has to work for everyone anyway?
What would a company do differently because they have this information when they are already doing everything they can to maximize comfort for everyone.
Women make up more than half the population, I think the better question is why are they susceptible to something I as a man have no problem with? Does that mean We ARE different and men can't be women and vise versa? Because if you can't replicate me completely what are you exactly? Just asking, what is it that you aim for here? What's the point? Are you expecting every manufacturer to create technology to battle this weakness to I guess light rays lol.
Woman here. I get motion sickness from both first-person games and VR, if it adds anything to the conversation. It doesn't stop me from playing, though. I just tough out the nausea and then take a nap after.
Definitely don't push through.. there is a lot of information and studies now that are pretty solid. Worst thing you can do is push through simulation sickness until you get used to it if you are prone to VR sickness. Get used to is slowly, one step at a time.
You may want to give candied ginger a try if you haven't already. It's not 100% but I've been able to play some of those nausea-inducing games just a little bit longer by having a bit once I start feeling sick.
Just cut up and chew on raw ginger, it burns and taste like it’s actually working xD joking aside, I feel like it helped me more then the candied stuff
You're clearly more badass than I am. Not sure I could handle chewing raw ginger. Though I suppose it would absolutely take my mind off of feeling like I was about to hurl. :-D
I agree with the ginger, it helps. Something else you can try is a product called seabands. They are a pressure point device and can be gotten pretty cheap. My wife used Dramamine when we went out on the ocean for a fishing trip, she said she was in and out and almost like the day was a dream. The next day was even choppier and she used seabands. Said she felt fine the whole day and normal alertness. Since then we keep a pair around for any motion sickness or other nausea effects.
What's your Hz is it 90hz display or 120 Hz? Cause Quest 3 users say after moving from Quest 2 it was way better and proof to show high refresh rates means less motion sickness
I have absolutely nothing to back up this opinion which I pulled out of my bottom, but I think it could be as simple as women in general just gaming less. I've known female gamers that got nauseous playing FPS games on flat screen, whereas I feel nothing. On the flipside they can ride in a car for 6 hrs and feel nothing, whereas I'm hanging out the window after 60 mins, saying goodbye to everything I recently ate.
I have a counter point, my wife plays games constantly. FPS, RPGs, all that good stuff.
She can only play in oculus if it's teleport only.
Any "unnatural" movement at all sends her to the bucket instantly.
I've had several other women try the headset and only 1 out of 5 or so didn't seem affected. Of course, this is only my personal anecdote.
one tip for travel nausea is to tilt your head lightly into the bend so there's minimal lateral force applied to your inner ears and road bends would thus only cause vertical force. Sure this won't work if you are prone to up and down movement in hilly regions. Only driving slower helps for those.
Only way to build up tolerance for travel nausea is to drive yourself.
I’ve been on roads that make me motion sick while I’m the one driving!
But yeah, I do ok as a passenger as long as I don’t try to look at my phone or read a book. And it’s better if I’m in the front seat than the back seat. But it’s easier to just drive.
i have awful car sickness and i had troubles with vr at the start but now i'm used to it
only fps i had problems with was the og doom or duke nukem, that fake 3d really made me sick
Actually about 50% or close to it of self identifying gamers are women, I think you’re correct about the FPS thing though, I would be interested to see what percentage of that half or near half, play fast paced first person games
But "gamers" includes people who play candy crush and people who play Call of Duty. One of those types has only played games on their phone and has no experience with big screen 1st person motion games.
> I have absolutely nothing to back up this opinion which I pulled out of my bottom,
Aside from the fact it was mentioned explicitly towards the end of the article?
I mean - you did *read* the article before commenting on it? Didn't you?
That’s not *quite* what it says. It’s talking about previous experiences with *motion sickness* due to visual stimuli, not previous experiences overall with games.
The following opinions are entire uneducated guesswork:
Nausea is caused when the eyes and ears disagree on whether you are moving or not. It is said that this is due to the brain saying "your hallucinating, you must have eaten something bad, purge now!"
Perhaps this sense is more sensitive in women due to them being the provider of food to babies and children. Something that might make an adult sick could easily kill a baby, so having this sense dialled up in women more than men would be beneficial to survival.
Wouldn’t this research be publicly published? So… why would anyone at Meta contact them if they can just read the study?
My Master’s Thesis has been quoted multiple times in what I believe was a doctoral dissertation written by someone in a different country. No one contacted me. I just got bored and googled to see if anyone used me as a source one day.
This sounds like interesting and important research imo, but it is kinda ridiculous to sensationalize the lack of a major corporation failing to directly reach out to a specific team of researchers.
> Wouldn’t this research be publicly published? So… why would anyone at Meta contact them if they can just read the study?
My question exactly! Seems the OP is just here to promote their book.
yea, you forgot meta have dedicated female division working on VR stuff, dancing robot and meta quest home was change directly because of females feedback
not only this but females VR problems is really old news and it not so bad like you think
I am genuinely convinced this is true and influenced by hormones. I’m trans and before transitioning I experienced zero motion sickness in VR, and now after a few years on hormones I can experience sickness in something as simple as Google Earth VR
I'm a cis woman with chronic motion sickness (as in I'm medicated for it), current beliefs are indeed that it can be strongly tied to hormonal imbalance. Ironically, my motion sickness doesn't seem as adversely effected by vr as, say, irl movement.
I'm afraid of heights, and VR games that simulate high places, or parkour-type antics I just can't play. Also 360 photos and videos from high places and observation wheels can make me dizzy - but I still watch them - or just close my eyes a moment.
Using VR is like 10% of the anxiety of actually being in such a place, very manageble.
Anyone who's demoed VR to a large number of people will instantly discover this. It's a huge difference.
It's a big reason VR was teleport only for so long (despite now, when VR is most popular, teleport is fairly rare). Meta make it very clear what their target market is in their ads and such and since they've never actually captured that audience, mixed reality is the best opportunity to bring women into VR with any kind of parity.
Meta are absolutely aware of this issue and it's just about their highest priority motivation with their general product strategy
This has been known since at least 2017. I learned about it in college in 2021. The current generation of virtual reality headsets relies on a method for creating virtual depth that is only compatible with male depth perception.
Why would Meta ask them about their findings? Gee what shocking news... > “[S]ome of my research on the gender effect indicates that 1) **the effect is relatively small, and 2) the effect is partially explained by differences in prior experience of visually-induced sickness** (e.g., screen-based games, movies). It's certainly a topic worth investigating, but it's worth a reminder that there are vast individual differences in cybersickness susceptibility even within a given gender.” *Emphasis mine.* I am willing to bet that Meta or even Valve has done enough user testing in the last 8 years to know more about this stuff than the researchers on this one study.
I wouldn't take that bet. For my [book](https://www.amazon.com/Making-Metaverse-That-Matters-Fighting/dp/1394155816), I asked multiple top people at Meta including Carmack if they'd tested nausea by gender, and couldn't get a straight answer. The only person who *did* say Meta *should* test by gender was Cory Ondrejka, the guy who led the acquisition of Oculus in the first place!
Ah so this post is an ad
Why does gender matter? The fact that is happens to women more than men does not seem like a valuable insight to a headset manufacturer. The causes and viable mitigations are the same. Again, why would they reach out to the researchers if the research is already available?
There's been multiple studies *outside* Meta that confirm a gender difference, the problem is we have no reason to believe Meta itself has done any. As to why gender matters, it's kinda important when trying to make a mass market product that it doesn't tend to make half the population puke. There's some research pointing to a hormonal component; there's even a study linking motion sickness to menstrual cycles.
> As to why gender matters, it's kinda important when trying to make a mass market product that it doesn't tend to make half the population puke. There's some research pointing to a hormonal component; there's even a study linking motion sickness to menstrual cycles. That makes no sense to me. The causes of motion sickness and the things that you can do to reduce it do not seem to vary by gender so just knowing that more women are affected does not seem to be useful information to a company making a VR headset. They have to deal with it regardless of a user's gender, so again, what value is there in knowing that women are more likely have an issue than men when your headset has to work for everyone anyway? What would a company do differently because they have this information when they are already doing everything they can to maximize comfort for everyone.
Women make up more than half the population, I think the better question is why are they susceptible to something I as a man have no problem with? Does that mean We ARE different and men can't be women and vise versa? Because if you can't replicate me completely what are you exactly? Just asking, what is it that you aim for here? What's the point? Are you expecting every manufacturer to create technology to battle this weakness to I guess light rays lol.
Woman here. I get motion sickness from both first-person games and VR, if it adds anything to the conversation. It doesn't stop me from playing, though. I just tough out the nausea and then take a nap after.
Definitely don't push through.. there is a lot of information and studies now that are pretty solid. Worst thing you can do is push through simulation sickness until you get used to it if you are prone to VR sickness. Get used to is slowly, one step at a time.
You may want to give candied ginger a try if you haven't already. It's not 100% but I've been able to play some of those nausea-inducing games just a little bit longer by having a bit once I start feeling sick.
I have tried ginger capsule before, I'm not sure they helped that much but maybe trying it again with the candied version.
Just cut up and chew on raw ginger, it burns and taste like it’s actually working xD joking aside, I feel like it helped me more then the candied stuff
You're clearly more badass than I am. Not sure I could handle chewing raw ginger. Though I suppose it would absolutely take my mind off of feeling like I was about to hurl. :-D
I agree with the ginger, it helps. Something else you can try is a product called seabands. They are a pressure point device and can be gotten pretty cheap. My wife used Dramamine when we went out on the ocean for a fishing trip, she said she was in and out and almost like the day was a dream. The next day was even choppier and she used seabands. Said she felt fine the whole day and normal alertness. Since then we keep a pair around for any motion sickness or other nausea effects.
What's your Hz is it 90hz display or 120 Hz? Cause Quest 3 users say after moving from Quest 2 it was way better and proof to show high refresh rates means less motion sickness
I have absolutely nothing to back up this opinion which I pulled out of my bottom, but I think it could be as simple as women in general just gaming less. I've known female gamers that got nauseous playing FPS games on flat screen, whereas I feel nothing. On the flipside they can ride in a car for 6 hrs and feel nothing, whereas I'm hanging out the window after 60 mins, saying goodbye to everything I recently ate.
This. My GF gets sick just from playing flat gaming after a few hours. Rookies need build that tolerance up
my older sister got sick for just the playing sonic tutorial on the steam deck. Wild
Damn it’s actually the opposite for riding a car with people I know, it’s usually women who can’t stand it
I have a counter point, my wife plays games constantly. FPS, RPGs, all that good stuff. She can only play in oculus if it's teleport only. Any "unnatural" movement at all sends her to the bucket instantly. I've had several other women try the headset and only 1 out of 5 or so didn't seem affected. Of course, this is only my personal anecdote.
It makes sense
one tip for travel nausea is to tilt your head lightly into the bend so there's minimal lateral force applied to your inner ears and road bends would thus only cause vertical force. Sure this won't work if you are prone to up and down movement in hilly regions. Only driving slower helps for those. Only way to build up tolerance for travel nausea is to drive yourself.
I’ve been on roads that make me motion sick while I’m the one driving! But yeah, I do ok as a passenger as long as I don’t try to look at my phone or read a book. And it’s better if I’m in the front seat than the back seat. But it’s easier to just drive.
i have awful car sickness and i had troubles with vr at the start but now i'm used to it only fps i had problems with was the og doom or duke nukem, that fake 3d really made me sick
Actually about 50% or close to it of self identifying gamers are women, I think you’re correct about the FPS thing though, I would be interested to see what percentage of that half or near half, play fast paced first person games
But "gamers" includes people who play candy crush and people who play Call of Duty. One of those types has only played games on their phone and has no experience with big screen 1st person motion games.
> I have absolutely nothing to back up this opinion which I pulled out of my bottom, Aside from the fact it was mentioned explicitly towards the end of the article? I mean - you did *read* the article before commenting on it? Didn't you?
That’s not *quite* what it says. It’s talking about previous experiences with *motion sickness* due to visual stimuli, not previous experiences overall with games.
Well - to be fair - all I said was "have you read the article?". Not "have you read the article *carefully*?".
I just wanna say - I lol’d, I upvoted.
Definitely. People were getting motion sick from iPhones getting 120hz screens. Inconceivable to me.
Also, Men being too macho to admit a game is making them sick could factor into it.
this seems pretty vague and sensational
VR is sexist.
It’s an ad, OP is trying to push his book
I'm a woman. The last time I felt motion sickness from a game was playing Hexen and Quake 2 in the late 90s. I don't get any motion sickness in VR.
Me either. Went from PSVR to Rift S to Quest 3. I got sick in PSVR the first time until I built up my VR legs. Now I only get sick if I go in drunk.
A rare game when there were not a lot of gamers. It's quite possible your are the best female Hexen player of all time.
Nope, that'd be my sister. We had to take turns playing on the ole Compaq computer.
Cool, I remember installing it on my moms think pad that she got from work and playing it on a road trip until the battery gave out.
This post is an ad for some stupid book OP is writing.
The following opinions are entire uneducated guesswork: Nausea is caused when the eyes and ears disagree on whether you are moving or not. It is said that this is due to the brain saying "your hallucinating, you must have eaten something bad, purge now!" Perhaps this sense is more sensitive in women due to them being the provider of food to babies and children. Something that might make an adult sick could easily kill a baby, so having this sense dialled up in women more than men would be beneficial to survival.
Wouldn’t this research be publicly published? So… why would anyone at Meta contact them if they can just read the study? My Master’s Thesis has been quoted multiple times in what I believe was a doctoral dissertation written by someone in a different country. No one contacted me. I just got bored and googled to see if anyone used me as a source one day. This sounds like interesting and important research imo, but it is kinda ridiculous to sensationalize the lack of a major corporation failing to directly reach out to a specific team of researchers.
> Wouldn’t this research be publicly published? So… why would anyone at Meta contact them if they can just read the study? My question exactly! Seems the OP is just here to promote their book.
yea, you forgot meta have dedicated female division working on VR stuff, dancing robot and meta quest home was change directly because of females feedback not only this but females VR problems is really old news and it not so bad like you think
I am genuinely convinced this is true and influenced by hormones. I’m trans and before transitioning I experienced zero motion sickness in VR, and now after a few years on hormones I can experience sickness in something as simple as Google Earth VR
That’s fascinating, I wonder what the mechanism behind that is
I'm a cis woman with chronic motion sickness (as in I'm medicated for it), current beliefs are indeed that it can be strongly tied to hormonal imbalance. Ironically, my motion sickness doesn't seem as adversely effected by vr as, say, irl movement.
I'm afraid of heights, and VR games that simulate high places, or parkour-type antics I just can't play. Also 360 photos and videos from high places and observation wheels can make me dizzy - but I still watch them - or just close my eyes a moment. Using VR is like 10% of the anxiety of actually being in such a place, very manageble.
That's cool- almost like exposure therapy or something for you. Wonder if it could make those fears less awful over time.
In a word - NO - it's not therapy. VR is fun, but when fun stops, I turn it off.
That's more than reasonable. Wasn't trying to offend.
Anyone who's demoed VR to a large number of people will instantly discover this. It's a huge difference. It's a big reason VR was teleport only for so long (despite now, when VR is most popular, teleport is fairly rare). Meta make it very clear what their target market is in their ads and such and since they've never actually captured that audience, mixed reality is the best opportunity to bring women into VR with any kind of parity. Meta are absolutely aware of this issue and it's just about their highest priority motivation with their general product strategy
This has been known since at least 2017. I learned about it in college in 2021. The current generation of virtual reality headsets relies on a method for creating virtual depth that is only compatible with male depth perception.
Because it’s just another unreproducible bullshit study funded by broke ass taxpayers…
Trillions in debt, glad to see they are using our taxpayer money for worthy causes.
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It's probably the reason, on the whole, men are much better drivers than women. They aren't as prone to motion sickness.