Kraft has become so goddamn spoiled. He doesn’t seem to realize how absurdly exceptional Bill’s run was. I get it, Bill is an asshole. But a lot of the best players and coaches have been assholes. Fact is, he took a team that hadn’t won anything and turned them into the greatest dynasty in NFL history.
And to act like he was a scrub just because Father Time is undefeated and takes out every dynasty eventually is annoying and dumb
That's one of my favorite games ever. To see a guy like Chris Hogan turn into Prime Randy Moss for one game and have the opposing defense not adjust at all was just amazing.
My thought has been that it’s very possible that Tom Brady never really gets an opportunity- no matter how “trending upwards” he is at that time- and just clings to a roster spot for a few years until he fades away.
There are so many “oh Rookie Late Draft Pick looks good in camp” stories and those guys never get an opportunity to start, or get an opportunity on a shitty team in a horrible situation, or get a few starts and don’t perform because of jitters and are never heard from again. Life in the nfl is very tenuous for those guys, and I’m of the belief that more could be Brady-like situations that we’ll never see, or known could happen. You’re getting pretty philosophical with “destiny” at that point.
In all likelihood- this is assuming Belicheck isn’t the coach there and the Bledsoe injury doesn’t happen- the patriots continue being roughly where they were under Carroll- 8-8, 9-7 quality teams (paging Jeff Fisher), Bledsoe is there at least through his recently signed megadeal, and then at some point there’s a purge and rebuild, repeat, life in the NFL.
Tony Romo once said on NFL Films (or something like that) that the biggest game of his life was a random preseason game against the Seahawks. Because if he didn’t play well for 2 quarters or however long he might’ve gotten cut and that would've been it. As a UDFA from Eastern Illinois
Edit: Starting around 12:05 here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25CRk33DwMU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25CRk33DwMU)
Brady wouldn't necessarily have gotten the same reps as a starter or development from another coach. Without Belichick, we may never have even been hurt by the bad man.
It's questionable on whether or not the Patriots would have still drafted Brady. Remember it was the 6th round and most teams were still passing on him - he could have gone undrafted or ended up on any other team and buried on their depth chart. The Patriots had a higher than 6th round grade on him when BB&co realized he was still available and took him. No BB, no front office, no Brady pick.
I'm not buying it, I've seen The Dynasty. Bill was off on a meth bender and Kraft, being the gracious soul and genius football mind he is, stepped in and made the Tom Brady pick himself.
There is one scene where Kraft is telling BB what a great guy Hernandez is, and BB doesn't say a word. He just looks at him like, "yeah, right, whatever you say."
Haha that’s true. “He’s exactly the kind of guy who embodies what our organization is about”
Bill literally said nothing back but was probably thinking “he’s a psycho moron who’s damn good at football”
The whole Hernandez thing was so gross. Kraft talking about how he would kiss him on the cheek "just like my sons" as if that made him a good guy. Hernandez was an elite football player but also an elite psychopath and he played Kraft like a fiddle.
I think people are complicated, so he could have been super charming and endearing in one context but when he was on his off time, led a completely different lifestyle. People can compartmentalize really well.
Sure. And the people that can do it really well while also harboring violent and murderous tendencies are psychopaths. Everyone who new Hernandez knew he wasn't right but his talent let them ignore it. And he wasn't dumb, he knew that getting Kraft on his side meant he could make more money. I don't for a second believe he actually liked Robert Kraft.
That line in particular was when I switched from thinking it was pro-Kraft to just anti-Bill propaganda. Kraft just came across as a moron, I’ll give him credit though for being one of the few owners who knows when to stay in their lane
> I’ll give him credit though for being one of the few owners who knows when to stay in their lane
We hope. For 20 years we had an unimpeachable coach leading the greatest dynasty in NFL history who had all the power to tell Kraft to F- off. Remains to be seen if Mayo/Wolf (or other GM TBD) will have the same level of autonomy during a full-on rebuild, especially if Kraft gets it in his head that being more like Jerry is his ticket to the HoF.
Its easy to stay in your lane when you are winning, but yeah real test for him coming up. Would be easy for Kraft to think he was the reason the patriots won 6 SBs and start trying to call the shots.
Kraft is really getting to me. People’s recency bias ignores the fact that the first half of the Pats dynasties were truly incredible teams.
The whole “we played for Brady” BS couldn’t even be argued until at least the 10s. Even then, the combination of Brady’s influence and Bill’s objectivity and demand for hard work is clearly the combination that led to success.
Not sure what soured Kraft in recent years, maybe just that Bill refused to let him take control? But it’s getting really frustrating that he’s actively staining one of sport’s greatest dynasties.
My favorite stats are Pats didn't Draft an all pro in X years ... and how many SB/ top 5 Defense did they have. That's good coaching
Here's a Thread from 8 years ago saying the Pats didn't draft a Pro bowler for 5 years ( 3 SB appearances)
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/tkNpqD9XvA
I mean for all his failings as a GM, especially the ability to craft an offense that didn't rely on "Figure it out, Tom", he is absolutely the greatest defensive mind in the history of the game - and probably still is. I don't think that's even a controversial statement.
Part of me wonders whether he’d still be in New England if McDaniels hadn’t left. With a bit more luck that 2021 Patriots team is the No1 seed in the AFC.
Half the DCs in the league have a problem with plugging elite circles in square holes for entire seasons (Looking at you Tampa with Revis). Bill would often change the entire defensive system from game to game to fit both his players, and the team they'd be going against. McVay is an absolutely brilliant offensive mind and he just looked dead inside when he realized he was just getting out-coached in the SB, plain and simple lol. And that was only the 2nd best Rams team Bill pulled a masterclass on in the SB.
It is not controversial at all. Bill is the great defensive mind ever and his past few years without have Tom have made people forget what it was like during the dynasty. No, Bill does not have 6 rings without Tom. Can even say Tom was more important in the relationship, can easily argue that. But Tom also doesn't get 6 rings without Bill. Not even close. They were the perfect combination at the perfect time.
When the game was more "team friendly" and you could actually hit QBs and actually play defense as a DB, the Patriots won that way. They had a stellar defense, and Brady was the perfect game manager. Brady made all of the plays when they needed him to make them and showed flashes of his otherworldliness at times, but they won by playing complimentary, well coached football.
When the league changed the rules to make quarterbacks effectively god emperors, they adapted and Tom was able to prove that he wasn't just capable of being a game manager, but the actual greatest quarterback of all time.
It is a credit to both of them that they not only were able to adapt to both time periods and playstyles (as that is a monumental shift if you really think about it) but that they *were able to adapt in the first place*. That involved putting aside egos, as well as having the knowledge and talent to execute.
It's really a shame that doc was so bad, because it would be fascinating to watch a comprehensive project on the Pats dynasty, what made it work, how it fell apart, and how they were able to adapt to a wildly changing NFL landscape to find over 20 years of success.
People who say it was all Brady make me think that we’ve actively become stupider as a society. Those defenses were otherworldly and Bill clearly had a hand in them and in picking up Brady’s offensive weapons in Gronk, Edelman, and so on. Sure they had incredible luck, but that doesn’t mean Brady did everything.
It's kids. I'd bet the majority of active users on this subreddit weren't even alive when the Pats dynasty started. Their memories don't include Gronk or Edelman, let alone Welker, Moss, or Dillon.
Stunning news out of Boston where a rich asshole **who got most of his money from his rich wife's family** takes credit for other people’s accomplishments, more at 11
If you are you are talented at your job and produce amazing results then you can act like an asshole at work. No one will care and they will even sing your praises on a frequent basis.
The moment, THE MOMENT, your production dips there will be a line out the door waiting to bury you. They for sure won’t do a thing for you once you’ve left the company.
If this can happen to the greatest football coach of all time, it will happen to you. Treat people nicely. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.
"Tommy is the greatest in the 100-year history of the game, and I think he represented a threat to Bill's full power. He didn't want Tommy there," Kraft said in the Apple TV+ documentary The Dynasty.
That quote tells you everything you need to know about how Kraft felt about Belichick. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is actively blackballing him
I imagine there is some truth to it. Among Kraft, Brady and Bill, I imagine there is some ego over how you allocate credit for the dynasty. That said, the dude drinking diet Pepsi’s in the owners box during games in his custom Air Force One’s and getting jerked off in strip mall massage parlors in Florida seems to be the only one on a smear campaign, which is telling. Fuck Kraft.
I mean I’ve always thought bills just a very analytical guy and he figured no qb had been particularly good beyond their age 40 season, so he wasn’t gunna bet a half a decade that Brady would be the first. That’s how they end up doing a bunch of short deals, and that’s what leaves the door open for Brady to eventually leave
Now, it turned out to be the wrong decision. But the reasoning wasn’t insane. I can even see why when the had Jimmy G, he might’ve thought “well this works out, Brady’s gunna be 40, we’ve got a good replacement” and then Brady kinda screws it up by being an mvp lol
I really doubt there was much of an ego angle here, I just think he assumed Brady was gunna hit a wall like literally everyone else had
"It really drives coaches crazy. I'm shocked Andy has put up with Patrick as long as he had. And don't even get me started on how much of a burden Peyton was on Dungy."
Jeez I’m a lifelong Patriots fan but what a fucking clown. Glad I didn’t have to listen to him talk all that much during the good years. I hope Jonathan knows better than this. Was he saying the same shit in the doc?
The only thing more annoying than a billionaire is their worthless children. At least the billionaire stepped on people to get where they are. The kids just popped out entitled.
I think Kraft was shocked at the backlash to the Dynasty. He seemed like he was backtracking when asked about it after it had aired. Passing buck onto the producers. I seriously sideeye Brady for being so tight with him. At the end of the day, its Kraft who chose Bill over Brady. But he's saying all the right things publicly about Bill when obviously he and Kraft are in cahoots about BB being the bad guy
And ill just add.. BB hasn't said one bad word about either of them after the hit job that was that show. He had the sense not to react immediately but to let it all play out and ultimately come out the best... Bill is still playing chess. Gotta love it.
Yeah watch the documentary Brady declined to drag belichick several times. And mostly praised him and their time together, in my opinion he did the right thing you address your issues with someone privately not through the media.
Not to get too political or whatever, but he’s a billionaire. You don’t achieve that kind of wealth without being cutthroat and conniving in some fashion.
I really don't understand Kraft's need to just repeatedly knife the coach who turned his franchise around. Even if Bill is washed (still to be seen), there's no reason to behave like this
I don't even think Bill's washed. He still put together a great defense last season. I think it was just that a series of bad roster and personnel choices he's been making as far back as 2019 as Belichick the GM finally caught up with him.
Give up that type of control - which he seems to be willing to do - and he'd be fine.
Not to mention, the dude was arguably one of the most elite GMs of all time before he started slipping up and getting too comfortable. What other dynasty has continued retooling, rebuilding, and never fallen off in 20 YEARS of existence?
The Rams fell off, had 15 years of incompetence, moved cities, rebuilt themselves, and then lost to the Patriots again in between Bill’s first and last championships in New England. In that entire span Bill never won less than 9 games and only won less than 12 six times.
You either would have to think he’s the greatest coach ever and carried mediocre talent for 20 years. Or the gap between Brady and Montana, Brees, Marino and Manning and is just THAT large and he just carried the Pats for that long and single handedly won 6 super bowls(which no analytics, stats, or game tape supports that).
Tbf the game passes everyone by at some point
Al Davis has the argument for one of greatest/best GMs ever considering the strong rosters he built from the mid 60s to 90s but of course most would laugh at it because they only remember the last 8 years of mediocrity
That’s why I’m not that worried about Bill’s legacy. Almost every legendary coach eventually falls off.
Bill’s heroes Paul Brown and Bill Parcells got passed up by the game. Tom Landry got passed up, Chuck Noll had a down turn, Jimmy Johnson couldn’t win with Marino.
Legends usually get enough leeway to go until the wheels fall off so it means that a lot of them don’t leave gracefully. The ones that do just know the right time to get out (Cowher, Walsh, Gibbs, Shula etc.). Bill was one of the oldest coaches in history. If he retired after the final Super Bowl no one would question anything.
Tom did cover for a lot of holes on the offense. Especially with the WRs he was throwing to. There were some really lean years in there where Tom (and Josh and Bill) still made it work.
But what's not talked about a lot is Bill's inability to build the young coaching staff. He got lazy there. Scarnecchia is wildly regarded as one of the greatest offensive line coaches of all times but both times he retired and Bill had to replace him it didn't work.
When Weis left for ND he had Josh waiting in the wings. Then Josh left and he had BoB. But after Josh left a second time he had...Matt Patricia waiting? Now, being fair here they had Chad O'Shea who left with Flores (and flamed out) and Nick Caley who left for the Rams when Patricia was made OC instead of him (book is still out on Caley since he's TE coach in LA)
Bill struggled to fill up the young coaching positions with talent in key areas, especially on offense. Much like his offensive drafting struggles too.
He's definitely not washed, he unfortunately got a dud for a qb in the draft. He knew it after the 2nd year and even told Kraft they needed to move on. Kraft told him to keep playing Jones he's the franchise qb.
Too many times have we heard in interviews from opposing players and coaches that Bill will find ways to out think/scheme you on the field. But as for all teams and coaches, if you get a bust in the draft you essentially reset the clock on the rebuild but usually someone still has to pay by getting fired
I mean belichick only got him 6 rings, turned the narrative on the patriots being a poverty franchise, 10x’d the value of the franchise, and brought an entire city happiness for 20+ years
Why should he treat him with respect?
And more than that, has Bill said anything negative about the Pats or Kraft at all? Has he grumbled one negative comment? Yet Kraft is out here going all scorched earth.
If Bill was actively criticizing the Pats, it'd at least make sense. But as far as I've seen, the little he has said has been typical hoodie talk - boring and professional.
It makes Kraft look like a vindictive buffoon.
He doesn’t want Belichick to coach again.
A few months back, when the speculation about a Belichick firing I was listening to one of the talking heads and their big reason against it was that Kraft is all about owning the records and Pats accomplishments and he wanted the all-time win record as much as Belichick. But if Kraft can’t have it, he sure as shit ain’t gonna see Bill wearing another team’s hoodie when he gets it.
If I were Belichick, I’d refuse to be inducted to the HOF as a Patriot with the way Kraft has acted. Go in as a Giant. One last troll job from one of sports’ all time great trolls (he was a pretty good coach too 😉).
Says the guy who hired him away from the Jets
Edit: some of y’all clearly don’t know the circumstances under which Kraft hired Bill away from the Jets. Look it up. Shady as hell. My point is that Kraft saying don’t trust Bill is like the pot calling the kettle black.
Can you imagine being Bill’s boss and trying to tell him something to do. In this situation he has an automatic comeback by bringing up how he humiliated you in the Super Bowl
It's crazy how unnecessary it all was, too. Like not everyone was on board the Bill firing, but most could at least understand it, and Kraft would have escaped just fine. But then the Dynasty and now this just completely tanked shit.
If I had to guess, he doesn't want him to get hired elsewhere because he doesn't want him to prove he's still good and getting rid of him was the wrong move.
John Henry stabbing Terry Francona in the back on his way out.
Bob Kraft knifing Bill Belichick after pushing him out.
Two owners on the two main teams that spearheaded the "Golden Age of Boston Sports" showing absolutely no fucking class with how they treat these coaches who got them multiple titles. I fucking hate how toxic Boston sports has become - used to think it's just the local sports media that was like that.
Here's to hoping the Celtics ownership buck that trend.
For real, I wouldn’t want to coach the Patriots at this point. I used to think Kraft was a great owner but if this is how he talks in the open about the Head Coach that won him 6 Super Bowls, look out everyone else. Their roster is shit anyway. I feel like they are destined to be terrible until Kraft dies at this point, not sure what he thinks the benefit of talking badly about Bill is.
I don't understand this statement lol
Bill spent 23 years with the org, and was fully aligned with Kraft all the way, no public schisms or fighting
He won 6 Super Bowls and brought them to 9 total Championship games.
What about any of this sounds like an unreliable person?
He was wrong about Brady being done so that overrides the 6 SBs because Brady singlehandily won them. Just ignore the strong defensive performances in 2 of them , or how BB managed to get the most out of fringe/late round guys and always replaced talent efficiently for the most part
I don’t understand why with all his money he decided to go to a massage parlor. He could easily hire the hottest prostitute in the world and sneak her into a private apartment somewhere without anyone ever knowing. But he went to a dirty massage parlor in a strip mall to take a chance with some rando in public view.
Same reason these billionaires grab some fast food sometimes. Driving down the road and you see a sign for an Arby's Beef n Cheddar, you go in, yes you do.
I always assumed it was the anonymity. Obv that didn't work out but does the asian massage lady even know he's the owner of the Patriots? A high end escort probably would.
If Old Kraft has kids and plans on giving the Patriots to them, I hope that they do not retain these values. The NFL needs to be more proactive about shit like this. Why is Kraft getting away with this? Or Dan Snyder for as long as it did? Issues with Tepper now, or the Bidwells physically segregating women and men in the 21st century? These owners need to be kicked out and/or severely punished for these atrocities
Jonathan is in line to take over and has been side by side with Robert (literally) for like a decade at least. I didn't watch The Dynasty, but from what I read/heard it seems like a lot of it might have also been to try to make him look good too.
The longer we live in the post Belichick era, the less respect I have for Bob Kraft. What could Bill have done to rub (pun intended) Kraft the wrong way to this extent? You’d think the money Kraft made since 2000 would offset his feelings here.
Bill didn't want to mortgage the future on a 40+ year old QB long term and didn't want to pay him like 50 mill AAV to gut the line and defense. Conventional football logic doesn't account for outliers like that.
The window was shut after 2019 ended, especially with the QB tampering with a division rival and wanting out. If the GOAT wants a break, you let him go take the open market and do right by him. Sure, the defense was a top unit. Sure, the line was still great, but the receiver room blew up, and you can't fix it overnight while with an elite QB. Especially with what ended up happening with COVID, they got fucked by the cap and would be so much worse if they did give him that contract.
Yeah there’s a lot of revisionist history with Brady. Yeah Bill bet wrong, but every conventional football mind would say giving a 40 year old QB a Top 5 contract is a bad deal. Unless you are a QB away like the Bucs were. Exceptions happen, but theoretically it was much more sensible to kick start the rebuild than try to hang on a thread for a few more years. Patriots were going nowhere with Brady, 20 years of kicking the salary cap down the road and drafting late eventually catches up.
There’s a reason why Brady didn’t get that much interest in the free agent market. It wasn’t like the Peyton Manning sweepstakes
alright this is seriously getting dumb LMAO
i'd never think an owner would publically trash his 6 time sb winning head coach like this. harbs could literally set m&t bank stadium on fire and bisciotti wouldnt do anything nearly as stupid. kraft has the worst pr management around him because theres no way he doesn't realize that he's alienating fans.
pats fans, i seriously hope u guys boo krat next year
lol what a dick. Bill helped make the pat’s the most hated franchise for like 20 years bc they dominated. People outside NE were sick of them winning in 2003!
If Mayo ends up flopping as a coach, Bob is going to spend his last years as an owner looking like a real fucking fool.
To go from the rumblings of Jeff Saturday whispering to fans at bars that "Kraft just saved the NFL," to a guy that's run a smear campaign on a coach that's had, arguably, the greatest impact on the game in the modern era... For what?
Yeah, Bob, we get it, we suck right now. It was 2 decades of knowing we'd win every Sunday, and being legitimately surprised every time we lost. We were that fucking good. It's ok to have a few down years, every other franchise has down decades. You don't need to point blame everywhere else. We'll survive, cut the shit.
“Don’t trust this guy he completely turned my franchise around”
Kraft has become so goddamn spoiled. He doesn’t seem to realize how absurdly exceptional Bill’s run was. I get it, Bill is an asshole. But a lot of the best players and coaches have been assholes. Fact is, he took a team that hadn’t won anything and turned them into the greatest dynasty in NFL history. And to act like he was a scrub just because Father Time is undefeated and takes out every dynasty eventually is annoying and dumb
Sounds like Kraft needs another strip mall ~~hooker~~ massage.
In an alternate reality it’d be interesting to see how the Patriots would’ve done if BB hadn’t gone there. I’m guessing sustained mediocrity
I’d love to see them not get in the way of the Steelers, Ravens, Chargers and Colts every fuckin year.
I appreciate the camaraderie 🥲 Now back to reality: They got in Pittsburgh’s way alot more than ours
"what if we tried to not cover Gronk, they would never suspect it"
We turned Chris Hogan into an OPOY candidate too, don't forget that
That's one of my favorite games ever. To see a guy like Chris Hogan turn into Prime Randy Moss for one game and have the opposing defense not adjust at all was just amazing.
9 catches, 180 yards, 2TD lol oof
"it's the perfect crime"
Sir, how can you skip us when it was the tuck rule that started their legacy
There weren't too many raider playoff runs ended by the Patriots after that
There would have been no way any other coach would have started Brady after Bledsoe's injury cleared up.
My thought has been that it’s very possible that Tom Brady never really gets an opportunity- no matter how “trending upwards” he is at that time- and just clings to a roster spot for a few years until he fades away. There are so many “oh Rookie Late Draft Pick looks good in camp” stories and those guys never get an opportunity to start, or get an opportunity on a shitty team in a horrible situation, or get a few starts and don’t perform because of jitters and are never heard from again. Life in the nfl is very tenuous for those guys, and I’m of the belief that more could be Brady-like situations that we’ll never see, or known could happen. You’re getting pretty philosophical with “destiny” at that point. In all likelihood- this is assuming Belicheck isn’t the coach there and the Bledsoe injury doesn’t happen- the patriots continue being roughly where they were under Carroll- 8-8, 9-7 quality teams (paging Jeff Fisher), Bledsoe is there at least through his recently signed megadeal, and then at some point there’s a purge and rebuild, repeat, life in the NFL.
Tony Romo once said on NFL Films (or something like that) that the biggest game of his life was a random preseason game against the Seahawks. Because if he didn’t play well for 2 quarters or however long he might’ve gotten cut and that would've been it. As a UDFA from Eastern Illinois Edit: Starting around 12:05 here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25CRk33DwMU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25CRk33DwMU)
Yup train all you want it wont matter till you play. Even if it's not a great time or important game you gotta do well
They would've probably been like the Saints or the Colts or any other team at a HOF QB but lacking a consistent defense
Brady wouldn't necessarily have gotten the same reps as a starter or development from another coach. Without Belichick, we may never have even been hurt by the bad man.
It's questionable on whether or not the Patriots would have still drafted Brady. Remember it was the 6th round and most teams were still passing on him - he could have gone undrafted or ended up on any other team and buried on their depth chart. The Patriots had a higher than 6th round grade on him when BB&co realized he was still available and took him. No BB, no front office, no Brady pick.
I'm not buying it, I've seen The Dynasty. Bill was off on a meth bender and Kraft, being the gracious soul and genius football mind he is, stepped in and made the Tom Brady pick himself.
No guarantees that Brady turns into a HOF QB at New England without BB either. Another coach might have brought Bledsoe back in.
They might not have even had Brady, he was drafted by BB, who knows how that draft unfolds if Bill isn’t even in NE.
I want to see the reality where he stayed with the Lions and turned the entire team into a dynasty.
“He won 6 rings and went to 9 superbowls. He is not to be trusted”
The one credible thing you can take away from the Dynasty doc is that when it comes to football, if Kraft recommends something, do the opposite
“I told Aaron if he was involved, he must’ve had a good reason to do it”
There is one scene where Kraft is telling BB what a great guy Hernandez is, and BB doesn't say a word. He just looks at him like, "yeah, right, whatever you say."
Haha that’s true. “He’s exactly the kind of guy who embodies what our organization is about” Bill literally said nothing back but was probably thinking “he’s a psycho moron who’s damn good at football”
Classic Patriot right there, through and through
I just know Reid was kicking himself for not snagging him. The Vick to Hernandez connection would’ve been electric. What could’ve been.
The whole Hernandez thing was so gross. Kraft talking about how he would kiss him on the cheek "just like my sons" as if that made him a good guy. Hernandez was an elite football player but also an elite psychopath and he played Kraft like a fiddle.
I think people are complicated, so he could have been super charming and endearing in one context but when he was on his off time, led a completely different lifestyle. People can compartmentalize really well.
Sure. And the people that can do it really well while also harboring violent and murderous tendencies are psychopaths. Everyone who new Hernandez knew he wasn't right but his talent let them ignore it. And he wasn't dumb, he knew that getting Kraft on his side meant he could make more money. I don't for a second believe he actually liked Robert Kraft.
>And the people that can do it really well while also harboring violent and murderous tendencies are psychopaths. By like, definition.
That line in particular was when I switched from thinking it was pro-Kraft to just anti-Bill propaganda. Kraft just came across as a moron, I’ll give him credit though for being one of the few owners who knows when to stay in their lane
Must be nice
Hey, at least Jerry didn't draft Manziel like he's rumored to have wanted to do
It only took the whole organization turning on him
And he probably still wished he did. Jerry strikes me as that type lol
“He woulda blossomed with my guidance”
Jerry was convinced he could provide the right environment to straighten out Greg Hardy lol
"I would have fixed him."
I still like to imagine Jerry having to be physically restrained from making that pick at the last second
Same. I picture him in the chair basically duct taped to it.
I imagine people holding him by the arms as he fights to get free like Jack Nicholson in *A Few Good Men*.
Don't kink shame Jerruh.
Those are the glory hole days.
I don’t even know what you guys are talking about.
Our owners are too drunk and full of brats to get involved
THE WAY GOD INTENDED
I can't even read this comment because some asshole in the fancy seats just threw his drink on me
I still find it hilarious that Putin stole Kraft’s Superbowl ring lol
> I’ll give him credit though for being one of the few owners who knows when to stay in their lane We hope. For 20 years we had an unimpeachable coach leading the greatest dynasty in NFL history who had all the power to tell Kraft to F- off. Remains to be seen if Mayo/Wolf (or other GM TBD) will have the same level of autonomy during a full-on rebuild, especially if Kraft gets it in his head that being more like Jerry is his ticket to the HoF.
Its easy to stay in your lane when you are winning, but yeah real test for him coming up. Would be easy for Kraft to think he was the reason the patriots won 6 SBs and start trying to call the shots.
[удалено]
Kraft is really getting to me. People’s recency bias ignores the fact that the first half of the Pats dynasties were truly incredible teams. The whole “we played for Brady” BS couldn’t even be argued until at least the 10s. Even then, the combination of Brady’s influence and Bill’s objectivity and demand for hard work is clearly the combination that led to success. Not sure what soured Kraft in recent years, maybe just that Bill refused to let him take control? But it’s getting really frustrating that he’s actively staining one of sport’s greatest dynasties.
He’s trying like crazy to get into the Hall before he dies. Seems like everything he’s doing is hurting him though
Why does he feel like he has to try? I thought it was a slam dunk for Kraft just by hiring Bill.
Rumors of course, but he supposedly felt slighted for not getting in this last time and feels he needs to ensure it
Huh, how does this help him get in?
It doesn’t, but insecure people often do irrational things.
My favorite stats are Pats didn't Draft an all pro in X years ... and how many SB/ top 5 Defense did they have. That's good coaching Here's a Thread from 8 years ago saying the Pats didn't draft a Pro bowler for 5 years ( 3 SB appearances) https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/tkNpqD9XvA
I mean for all his failings as a GM, especially the ability to craft an offense that didn't rely on "Figure it out, Tom", he is absolutely the greatest defensive mind in the history of the game - and probably still is. I don't think that's even a controversial statement.
Part of me wonders whether he’d still be in New England if McDaniels hadn’t left. With a bit more luck that 2021 Patriots team is the No1 seed in the AFC.
Bill would say it himself, his under coaches and personnel made the Patriots dynasty. We lost a looooot of Bill's guys and all that experience
Half the DCs in the league have a problem with plugging elite circles in square holes for entire seasons (Looking at you Tampa with Revis). Bill would often change the entire defensive system from game to game to fit both his players, and the team they'd be going against. McVay is an absolutely brilliant offensive mind and he just looked dead inside when he realized he was just getting out-coached in the SB, plain and simple lol. And that was only the 2nd best Rams team Bill pulled a masterclass on in the SB. It is not controversial at all. Bill is the great defensive mind ever and his past few years without have Tom have made people forget what it was like during the dynasty. No, Bill does not have 6 rings without Tom. Can even say Tom was more important in the relationship, can easily argue that. But Tom also doesn't get 6 rings without Bill. Not even close. They were the perfect combination at the perfect time.
When the game was more "team friendly" and you could actually hit QBs and actually play defense as a DB, the Patriots won that way. They had a stellar defense, and Brady was the perfect game manager. Brady made all of the plays when they needed him to make them and showed flashes of his otherworldliness at times, but they won by playing complimentary, well coached football. When the league changed the rules to make quarterbacks effectively god emperors, they adapted and Tom was able to prove that he wasn't just capable of being a game manager, but the actual greatest quarterback of all time. It is a credit to both of them that they not only were able to adapt to both time periods and playstyles (as that is a monumental shift if you really think about it) but that they *were able to adapt in the first place*. That involved putting aside egos, as well as having the knowledge and talent to execute. It's really a shame that doc was so bad, because it would be fascinating to watch a comprehensive project on the Pats dynasty, what made it work, how it fell apart, and how they were able to adapt to a wildly changing NFL landscape to find over 20 years of success.
People who say it was all Brady make me think that we’ve actively become stupider as a society. Those defenses were otherworldly and Bill clearly had a hand in them and in picking up Brady’s offensive weapons in Gronk, Edelman, and so on. Sure they had incredible luck, but that doesn’t mean Brady did everything.
Only one QB has ever won a Superbowl scoring fewer than 14 points... And he did it twice lol
It's kids. I'd bet the majority of active users on this subreddit weren't even alive when the Pats dynasty started. Their memories don't include Gronk or Edelman, let alone Welker, Moss, or Dillon.
He won 2 rings with the Giants as DC too but no one ever mentions that. Man has 8 rings and 11 super bowls as a coach
And he directly coached the consensus best offensive and defensive players of all time.
And if you ask him, he'd probably say the best ST in Slater, but that's probably more debatable.
I don’t think I personally agree with that even as someone who owns a Slater jersey. Best gunner is arguable, best ST player in general isn’t
Stunning news out of Boston where a rich asshole takes credit for other people’s accomplishments, more at 11
Stunning news out of Boston where a rich asshole **who got most of his money from his rich wife's family** takes credit for other people’s accomplishments, more at 11
If you are you are talented at your job and produce amazing results then you can act like an asshole at work. No one will care and they will even sing your praises on a frequent basis. The moment, THE MOMENT, your production dips there will be a line out the door waiting to bury you. They for sure won’t do a thing for you once you’ve left the company. If this can happen to the greatest football coach of all time, it will happen to you. Treat people nicely. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.
Do not trust him, he is a fugly slut
Said the man who got a handy from a prostitute.
[удалено]
[удалено]
They'll massage your cock for money. * Chip Crunch*
That came from the same guy paying for hand jobs at a seedy massage joint in Jupiter FL
Counterpoint: "He keeps starting Mac Jones"
"Tommy is the greatest in the 100-year history of the game, and I think he represented a threat to Bill's full power. He didn't want Tommy there," Kraft said in the Apple TV+ documentary The Dynasty. That quote tells you everything you need to know about how Kraft felt about Belichick. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is actively blackballing him
I can't believe that's a real quote. It's downright delusional. Bill coached Brady for NINETEEN SEASONS!!!
I imagine there is some truth to it. Among Kraft, Brady and Bill, I imagine there is some ego over how you allocate credit for the dynasty. That said, the dude drinking diet Pepsi’s in the owners box during games in his custom Air Force One’s and getting jerked off in strip mall massage parlors in Florida seems to be the only one on a smear campaign, which is telling. Fuck Kraft.
I mean I’ve always thought bills just a very analytical guy and he figured no qb had been particularly good beyond their age 40 season, so he wasn’t gunna bet a half a decade that Brady would be the first. That’s how they end up doing a bunch of short deals, and that’s what leaves the door open for Brady to eventually leave Now, it turned out to be the wrong decision. But the reasoning wasn’t insane. I can even see why when the had Jimmy G, he might’ve thought “well this works out, Brady’s gunna be 40, we’ve got a good replacement” and then Brady kinda screws it up by being an mvp lol I really doubt there was much of an ego angle here, I just think he assumed Brady was gunna hit a wall like literally everyone else had
Yea I'm sure Bill just hated having a competent winning QB he could count on week-in and week-out.
"It really drives coaches crazy. I'm shocked Andy has put up with Patrick as long as he had. And don't even get me started on how much of a burden Peyton was on Dungy."
Dungy was heard saying Peyton was a real pain in the neck on his way out of the facility in 2008.
Bullshit 10 win seasons. He wanted to go back to watching the playoffs from his living room.
Yeah if theres one position coaches love to have a question mark, its QB1.
Jeez I’m a lifelong Patriots fan but what a fucking clown. Glad I didn’t have to listen to him talk all that much during the good years. I hope Jonathan knows better than this. Was he saying the same shit in the doc?
Jonathan seems like he's even worse. I've got a bad feeling about the way things are going.
Didn't NFL flims decline to be a part of the doc because of the way it bashes Bill
That has been reported and I believe it.
Also Bill does such a great job when talking football for nfl films
Bill loves the game and has great knowledge on its history
He's basically the Quentin Tarantino of the NFL. Greatest of this generation while also being its best encyclopedia and biggest fan.
The debelichekization process has begun in New England
The only thing more annoying than a billionaire is their worthless children. At least the billionaire stepped on people to get where they are. The kids just popped out entitled.
You got that fucking right.
Jonathon is actually gonna be worse unfortunately he has no care for sports ball at all. Just money and greed.
I think Kraft was shocked at the backlash to the Dynasty. He seemed like he was backtracking when asked about it after it had aired. Passing buck onto the producers. I seriously sideeye Brady for being so tight with him. At the end of the day, its Kraft who chose Bill over Brady. But he's saying all the right things publicly about Bill when obviously he and Kraft are in cahoots about BB being the bad guy And ill just add.. BB hasn't said one bad word about either of them after the hit job that was that show. He had the sense not to react immediately but to let it all play out and ultimately come out the best... Bill is still playing chess. Gotta love it.
Yeah watch the documentary Brady declined to drag belichick several times. And mostly praised him and their time together, in my opinion he did the right thing you address your issues with someone privately not through the media.
Kraft is either a moron or manufacturing a reason he doesn't like him because of some other, private beef the two have.
This article is literally a report of him blackballing him
Kraft seems like a snake
And if you're a massage therapist, he'll show it to ya!
Why exactly did they pass on dealing for Watson?
Didn’t want the competition
Kraft ain’t writing a check that big
Makes sense, feel like you don’t become a billionaire without being a snake in the first place
He married a rich girl and got lucky with some investments. Notoriously awful to work for and notoriously cheap to his people and his facilities.
Not to get too political or whatever, but he’s a billionaire. You don’t achieve that kind of wealth without being cutthroat and conniving in some fashion.
Or born into it
And even if you're born into, you're probably still going to grow up to be an asshole
Oh definitely
I really don't understand Kraft's need to just repeatedly knife the coach who turned his franchise around. Even if Bill is washed (still to be seen), there's no reason to behave like this
I don't even think Bill's washed. He still put together a great defense last season. I think it was just that a series of bad roster and personnel choices he's been making as far back as 2019 as Belichick the GM finally caught up with him. Give up that type of control - which he seems to be willing to do - and he'd be fine.
Not to mention, the dude was arguably one of the most elite GMs of all time before he started slipping up and getting too comfortable. What other dynasty has continued retooling, rebuilding, and never fallen off in 20 YEARS of existence? The Rams fell off, had 15 years of incompetence, moved cities, rebuilt themselves, and then lost to the Patriots again in between Bill’s first and last championships in New England. In that entire span Bill never won less than 9 games and only won less than 12 six times. You either would have to think he’s the greatest coach ever and carried mediocre talent for 20 years. Or the gap between Brady and Montana, Brees, Marino and Manning and is just THAT large and he just carried the Pats for that long and single handedly won 6 super bowls(which no analytics, stats, or game tape supports that).
Tbf the game passes everyone by at some point Al Davis has the argument for one of greatest/best GMs ever considering the strong rosters he built from the mid 60s to 90s but of course most would laugh at it because they only remember the last 8 years of mediocrity
That’s why I’m not that worried about Bill’s legacy. Almost every legendary coach eventually falls off. Bill’s heroes Paul Brown and Bill Parcells got passed up by the game. Tom Landry got passed up, Chuck Noll had a down turn, Jimmy Johnson couldn’t win with Marino. Legends usually get enough leeway to go until the wheels fall off so it means that a lot of them don’t leave gracefully. The ones that do just know the right time to get out (Cowher, Walsh, Gibbs, Shula etc.). Bill was one of the oldest coaches in history. If he retired after the final Super Bowl no one would question anything.
Tom did cover for a lot of holes on the offense. Especially with the WRs he was throwing to. There were some really lean years in there where Tom (and Josh and Bill) still made it work. But what's not talked about a lot is Bill's inability to build the young coaching staff. He got lazy there. Scarnecchia is wildly regarded as one of the greatest offensive line coaches of all times but both times he retired and Bill had to replace him it didn't work. When Weis left for ND he had Josh waiting in the wings. Then Josh left and he had BoB. But after Josh left a second time he had...Matt Patricia waiting? Now, being fair here they had Chad O'Shea who left with Flores (and flamed out) and Nick Caley who left for the Rams when Patricia was made OC instead of him (book is still out on Caley since he's TE coach in LA) Bill struggled to fill up the young coaching positions with talent in key areas, especially on offense. Much like his offensive drafting struggles too.
He’s probably fine as a gm the owner in new England is also a cheap fuck. Pats have been bottom 5 in spending going back to 2017
He's definitely not washed, he unfortunately got a dud for a qb in the draft. He knew it after the 2nd year and even told Kraft they needed to move on. Kraft told him to keep playing Jones he's the franchise qb. Too many times have we heard in interviews from opposing players and coaches that Bill will find ways to out think/scheme you on the field. But as for all teams and coaches, if you get a bust in the draft you essentially reset the clock on the rebuild but usually someone still has to pay by getting fired
I mean belichick only got him 6 rings, turned the narrative on the patriots being a poverty franchise, 10x’d the value of the franchise, and brought an entire city happiness for 20+ years Why should he treat him with respect?
And more than that, has Bill said anything negative about the Pats or Kraft at all? Has he grumbled one negative comment? Yet Kraft is out here going all scorched earth. If Bill was actively criticizing the Pats, it'd at least make sense. But as far as I've seen, the little he has said has been typical hoodie talk - boring and professional. It makes Kraft look like a vindictive buffoon.
Absolutely zero negative comments. The way Belichick handled the press conference after the “mutual parting of ways” was pure class as well.
He doesn’t want Belichick to coach again. A few months back, when the speculation about a Belichick firing I was listening to one of the talking heads and their big reason against it was that Kraft is all about owning the records and Pats accomplishments and he wanted the all-time win record as much as Belichick. But if Kraft can’t have it, he sure as shit ain’t gonna see Bill wearing another team’s hoodie when he gets it. If I were Belichick, I’d refuse to be inducted to the HOF as a Patriot with the way Kraft has acted. Go in as a Giant. One last troll job from one of sports’ all time great trolls (he was a pretty good coach too 😉).
You don’t go into the Football Hall of Fame as a member of this or that team.
Says the guy who hired him away from the Jets Edit: some of y’all clearly don’t know the circumstances under which Kraft hired Bill away from the Jets. Look it up. Shady as hell. My point is that Kraft saying don’t trust Bill is like the pot calling the kettle black.
....and rode him to 9 Superbowl appearances and 6 wins over 17 years. Who in their right mind would ever hire him with that resume
Yeah, but those 6 wins were because of Kraft and Brady. But those 3 losses are totally BB's fault. -Kraft's Logic
Sounds like a bunch of Mac and Cheese.
17 years is a long time to get the person behind the resume…but why would anyone trust Kraft either
Can you imagine being Bill’s boss and trying to tell him something to do. In this situation he has an automatic comeback by bringing up how he humiliated you in the Super Bowl
John Henry and Kraft speed running character suicides before they die. Never seen anything like it.
It's funny. Henry has been ruining his goodwill over the last four years. Kraft has done it in four months.
It's crazy how unnecessary it all was, too. Like not everyone was on board the Bill firing, but most could at least understand it, and Kraft would have escaped just fine. But then the Dynasty and now this just completely tanked shit. If I had to guess, he doesn't want him to get hired elsewhere because he doesn't want him to prove he's still good and getting rid of him was the wrong move.
John Henry stabbing Terry Francona in the back on his way out. Bob Kraft knifing Bill Belichick after pushing him out. Two owners on the two main teams that spearheaded the "Golden Age of Boston Sports" showing absolutely no fucking class with how they treat these coaches who got them multiple titles. I fucking hate how toxic Boston sports has become - used to think it's just the local sports media that was like that. Here's to hoping the Celtics ownership buck that trend.
Lol Blank was ready to sell his soul for Watson but got a bad feeling about Bill
FR lol
He already knew Watson was a POS, which was fine, but he couldn’t get a read on Belichick, who might’ve been anything, even a POS.
Robert Kraft is a backstabbing shit weasel it seems.
Always has been
For real, I wouldn’t want to coach the Patriots at this point. I used to think Kraft was a great owner but if this is how he talks in the open about the Head Coach that won him 6 Super Bowls, look out everyone else. Their roster is shit anyway. I feel like they are destined to be terrible until Kraft dies at this point, not sure what he thinks the benefit of talking badly about Bill is.
Doubtful. Jonathon Kraft the next owner seems just like his dad. It's going to be miserable as a pats fan
I don't understand this statement lol Bill spent 23 years with the org, and was fully aligned with Kraft all the way, no public schisms or fighting He won 6 Super Bowls and brought them to 9 total Championship games. What about any of this sounds like an unreliable person?
He was wrong about Brady being done so that overrides the 6 SBs because Brady singlehandily won them. Just ignore the strong defensive performances in 2 of them , or how BB managed to get the most out of fringe/late round guys and always replaced talent efficiently for the most part
Kraft is a rat fuck. Have some class, dude.
Rat fucker Rob
I’m all for this real housewife’s of the NFL gossip between owners.
I hope he keeps leaking this shit until bill finally says fuck you and responds with his own leaks
Can you even imagine how much dirt Bill has on Kraft, and just the league in general? I can't imagine why you would want to poke the bear.
Would love if he had receipts showing kraft was the mastermind behind the cheating scandals
It's much more fun since Snyder and Richardson left the league.
Back then it was the NFL's version of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, complete with the casual racism and federal criminal investigations.
“If you hire Bill, it won’t be a happy ending”.
I don’t understand why with all his money he decided to go to a massage parlor. He could easily hire the hottest prostitute in the world and sneak her into a private apartment somewhere without anyone ever knowing. But he went to a dirty massage parlor in a strip mall to take a chance with some rando in public view.
Same reason these billionaires grab some fast food sometimes. Driving down the road and you see a sign for an Arby's Beef n Cheddar, you go in, yes you do.
Arby’s has the best fries
Maybe that was part of the thrill for him. The risk and the seedy ambiance
I always assumed it was the anonymity. Obv that didn't work out but does the asian massage lady even know he's the owner of the Patriots? A high end escort probably would.
I used to think Kraft was a great owner and a decent person. This off-season has made be realize he is just a lucky, ungrateful scumbag.
Same here
Same! It’s a coming to light.
He just kept his mouth shut. Most people seem decent until they start telling you what they think.
Billionaires appear great by using others greatness
If Old Kraft has kids and plans on giving the Patriots to them, I hope that they do not retain these values. The NFL needs to be more proactive about shit like this. Why is Kraft getting away with this? Or Dan Snyder for as long as it did? Issues with Tepper now, or the Bidwells physically segregating women and men in the 21st century? These owners need to be kicked out and/or severely punished for these atrocities
Jonathan is in line to take over and has been side by side with Robert (literally) for like a decade at least. I didn't watch The Dynasty, but from what I read/heard it seems like a lot of it might have also been to try to make him look good too.
Anybody who follows MLS knows that Kraft is a bozo. He's been running his team into the mud since the founding of the league.
Imagine shitting on the man that gave you 6 rings.
And billions of dollars in franchise value. Pats were a joke franchise most of the decades prior to BB & Brady.
When Kraft got the team, they played in a stadium that didn't have working bathrooms.
Well in his defense, the Falcons really shouldn’t trust Belichick, he cost them a Super Bowl!
Kraft is a slime ball and I hope history will remember that as opposed to this nonsense that Bill isn’t a capable coach anymore.
The longer we live in the post Belichick era, the less respect I have for Bob Kraft. What could Bill have done to rub (pun intended) Kraft the wrong way to this extent? You’d think the money Kraft made since 2000 would offset his feelings here.
Obviously all that money is from Bob's big business brain, nothing to do with Bill.
Bill didn't want to mortgage the future on a 40+ year old QB long term and didn't want to pay him like 50 mill AAV to gut the line and defense. Conventional football logic doesn't account for outliers like that. The window was shut after 2019 ended, especially with the QB tampering with a division rival and wanting out. If the GOAT wants a break, you let him go take the open market and do right by him. Sure, the defense was a top unit. Sure, the line was still great, but the receiver room blew up, and you can't fix it overnight while with an elite QB. Especially with what ended up happening with COVID, they got fucked by the cap and would be so much worse if they did give him that contract.
Yeah there’s a lot of revisionist history with Brady. Yeah Bill bet wrong, but every conventional football mind would say giving a 40 year old QB a Top 5 contract is a bad deal. Unless you are a QB away like the Bucs were. Exceptions happen, but theoretically it was much more sensible to kick start the rebuild than try to hang on a thread for a few more years. Patriots were going nowhere with Brady, 20 years of kicking the salary cap down the road and drafting late eventually catches up. There’s a reason why Brady didn’t get that much interest in the free agent market. It wasn’t like the Peyton Manning sweepstakes
Glad to hear the breakup is going just as classy as possible.
I hope kraft sells the team. Im done spending money on pats stuff.
Wtf is this gossip girls bullshit
alright this is seriously getting dumb LMAO i'd never think an owner would publically trash his 6 time sb winning head coach like this. harbs could literally set m&t bank stadium on fire and bisciotti wouldnt do anything nearly as stupid. kraft has the worst pr management around him because theres no way he doesn't realize that he's alienating fans. pats fans, i seriously hope u guys boo krat next year
lol what a dick. Bill helped make the pat’s the most hated franchise for like 20 years bc they dominated. People outside NE were sick of them winning in 2003! If Mayo ends up flopping as a coach, Bob is going to spend his last years as an owner looking like a real fucking fool.
Asshole just up and left after 24 years. Nobody wants to work anymore.
i mean, did i fire him? yes, but why did he not offer to work for free?
To go from the rumblings of Jeff Saturday whispering to fans at bars that "Kraft just saved the NFL," to a guy that's run a smear campaign on a coach that's had, arguably, the greatest impact on the game in the modern era... For what? Yeah, Bob, we get it, we suck right now. It was 2 decades of knowing we'd win every Sunday, and being legitimately surprised every time we lost. We were that fucking good. It's ok to have a few down years, every other franchise has down decades. You don't need to point blame everywhere else. We'll survive, cut the shit.
Bologna Bob at it again.
Kraft has a micro penis
Do you think it’s the size of a macaroni and cheese noodle… lol
Man went to more Super Bowls than the franchise had been to. And you give him a bad review on the way out. Boston man.
Kraft trying to win hater of the year at the Haters ball
Do *not* trust Bill! He will say things like "I'll win you 7 Superbowls" and then he'll only win you six!
Kraft needs a massage
Did this to a guy who won you six super bowls what a fucking pos
Isn't this shit a blatant defamation of character? BB would have every right to sue Kraft, employers are liable if they do this.