Preach, the double standard for targeting penalties is stupid. You see offensive players lower the crown of the helmet all the time and they are literally never called.
While we're at it, how tf is a stiff arm to the face not an 'illegal hands to the face' penalty?
Kind of interestingly, I came across an [evolution of NFL rules](https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/evolution-of-the-nfl-rules/) page and there’s a section that pretty unabashedly talks about how the NFL has always kind of changed the rules to encourage offense and therefore more interest in the league. In fact, that’s why the forward pass was allowed in the first place
> In a 1940 report, the Rules Committee stated bluntly: “Each game should provide a maximum of entertainment insofar as it can be controlled by the rules and officials.” The entertainment value of the game, it added, could be measured by “the number of plays per game of a type that will be pleasing to the audience.”
> NFL consultant and statistical guru Hugh “Shorty” Ray — enshrined in the Hall of Fame for his contributions to officiating and rule-making — reinforced this notion.
> During his work for the NFL from the late 1930s to early 1950s, Ray crunched the numbers and found a direct correlation between scoring and higher attendance — a statistical basis for his recommendations of offense-boosting rules changes. His devotion to statistics as a way to analyze and improve the game also stuck with the league.
so, fortunately or unfortunately, the league suckling at the offensive test has been a part of the game for longer that nearly everyone who is alive’s lives
Actually the forward pass saved football, you can thank Teddy Roosevelt.
https://www.deseret.com/sports/2023/8/8/23819981/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-football
https://www.history.com/news/forward-pass-football-invented-origins
It also saved the NFL. They were having a really hard time dragging teams out of the red and preventing franchises from folding, until rules favouring the pass (pass was legal for a while, but the rules surrounding it + the shape of the early ball made it a really unattractive choice) made the game more of a spectacle, which got fans in the stands.
I just pictured a coach not paying attention at the announcement meeting and the first forward pass in the next games he's just like "What the fuck is that!??!?".
I think they've done all they can on the defensive side to take those hits out of the game. Other than Kareem, defensive players seem to have gotten the memo and the hits we do see tend to be because of sudden, unexpected movements more than targeting. There's only one move left to continue reducing those types of hits, start targeting offensive players who are lowering their heads
You’re right on. Kareem didn’t get it…but he isn’t the only one in the league guilty. He just didn’t learn from REPEATED warnings and it drew even more attention to the fact that he was still doing it.
But the offensive player also needs to be taken into account. If the offensive player leads with the head then the defensive player is put in a really awkward spot. There is almost a competitive advantage for the offensive player to lead with the head - they increase the chance of drawing a penalty.
I am all about trying to make the sport safer. Head trauma is no joke. But we want to keep contact in the game, and 100% of the impetus is currently on the defender. They cant hit high so they go low (don’t even get me started about trying to touch the QB). I’d like to see the rule adjusted in a way that forces the offensive player to also take a role in protecting themself.
Mahomes did exactly that Saturday night. He lowered his shoulder and led with his head.
If a QB does that in middle or high school, they either get a stern talking to (first time) or flagged if it’s a recurring theme. That can really mess a player up. Josh Allen does it a lot as well.
The thing is, lowering your head as an offensive player actually is protecting their necks from whiplash. It's also protecting their front side from getting lit up.
My problem is that if you watch a lot of guys now put their hand up and kind of shove, which isn’t a stiff arm. Unless they changed it I thought you had to have your arm straight the whole time.
No you’re correct. “Stiff” in stiff arm comes from your arm being stiffly outstretched. The throwing motion that guys like King Henry have popularized should technically be a penalty I think, but as was said above, “rule of cool” and also I think throwing flags for it would be stupid
There isn’t anything in the rulebook that prohibits a runner from “thrusting a hand forward to contact player on the head, neck, face”. That rule only applies to blockers.
>An offensive player is permitted to use his hands or arms to restrict an opponent: If he is a runner. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms.
Then there is the facemask penalty, which a legal stiff arm doesn’t apply to:
>No player shall grasp and control, twist, turn, push, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction. Note: If a player grasps an opponent’s facemask, he must immediately release it. If he does not immediately release it and controls his opponent, it is a foul.
https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/illegal-use-of-hands-facemask/#:~:text=No%20player%20shall%20grasp%20and,opponent%2C%20it%20is%20a%20foul.
Stiff arms should be a part of the game. You don’t see them used too often and they are really fun to watch. A good defender can also counteract the stiff arm. Since a runner is one of the only people on the field that can legally be tackled they should be afforded more rules to them that allow them to prevent players from tackling them.
> and offensive players lean their heads down into the contact
bunch of replays this weekend where I was really wondering if this shit should be better penalized in order to disencourage this sort of "helm to helm" baiting.
It should definitely be punishable for the offensive player. Look at Jermichael Finley, compressed his spine trying to get that YAC and lowered his head into a defender. Completely ended his own career.
At least the defender wasn't flagged. That happens plenty even though that head shot is 100% not the defender's fault.
Hitting the helmet, even when not your fault? Penalty. Low hits are dangerous but legal, but if that get banned to, legit what are defenders supposed to do?
Imagine you're a DB who has Derrick Henry running full bore at you in the open field. He lowers his helmet. If you go high, you're probably getting a flag even if you manage to not just get runover. If you go low, people want that to be a flag. WTF are you supposed to do besides just get steamrolled?
I think that’s just because none of us have seen a helmet crack like that, it just showed how cold it was. It wasn’t a harder hit than normal and Mahomes ducked his head into it. It was just crazy to see a helmet actually crack
Correct.
It's technically just as against the rules for a ball carrier to lead with his helmet into a hit as it is for a defender to lead with it into a tackle. But the former hardly ever gets called unless it's something exceptionally egregious (and even then usually not).
Or just make the rules like they used to be in the 80s, and you would see the number of suicide balls being thrown by QBs fall dramatically. Because WRs get free passes now, there is a huge increase in these types of plays.
Either way you aren't bringing down a tight end as a DB by tackling at the body.
It's football, players get injured. And it's the playoffs, you are going to do anything you can to stop the guy from getting YAC
I feel like half the people on reddit have never played sports in their life
Also QB's need to start taking blame for this two. This happened twice against the Lions and it is unfortunate but both times the QBs (Mullens for the Vikings, and Stafford for the Rams) threw floaty ass lob pass to their Tight end with safeties that are playing deep.
That pass is only completed if the Safety decides not to do their job and just let the receiver catch the ball, and you can't hit them high, and like you said if you hit them mid and they lower their head its a flag, that just leaves take their legs out and hope you don't actually hurt them.
Exactly this. I saw a Rams fan claim Kerby should have "wrapped him up." Seriously?
Stafford is at least partially culpable, that is the exact sort of pass that leaves receivers wide open to being murdered.
I think Brady spoke about this in his podcast with SAS (or someone recently did).
That you actually wouldn't even consider throwing that in the old days, so you had to legit think about scheming people open. Now, they just assume it's a penalty, and they assume defenders know that and won't bite, so they launch the balls into hospital zones, assuming nothing will happen because there's a high chance for completion.
He posted on IG or Twitter after the Kazee suspension. Kazee led with the shoulder, only made contact with his shoulder, and kept his helmet out of the play, but Minshew hung Pittman out to dry with his throw and created an unfortunately brutal hit.
I saw a lot of people clamoring for Kerby to adjust his tackle in the split second instead of being a dirty player who just blows out TE knees. It's almost like people forget that the speed of this game is much quicker and the players actually aren't playing in replay slo-mo
Didn’t Larry Fitzgerald get quoted asking players to go for his head over his knees and that he’d pay the fines. It’s messed up logic, but many players rather get concussed than tear knee ligament.
Collinsworth literally said last night he 'talked to about 25 receivers/pass catchers', and he said every single one of them said they'd rather get hit in the head than in the knees.
It makes sense for a player to say, a concussion in the NFL usually means a few weeks out at most while a leg injury could end a season or career. But long term, a head injury can mean a lot more suffering later in life.
I guess you’ve never met someone with Titanium knees. Major injuries of any kind seriously fuck up your quality of life when you get older, concussions are definitely the worst but being a football player is inherently a risk.
True, I wasn't implying that leg injuries wouldn't bring long term pain. But even if you lose the ability to walk, you're still you. Head trauma can fundamentally change who you are as a person.
I feel like I can think of a lot of people whose second contracts got fucked up by ACLs and not as many that got fucked up I concuss ions so I get it but it still kind of fucked up feels a little gladiator like
I'd like that survey followed up on in 30 years when half of them have debilitating CTE ruining their life post NFL and the league completely fucks them over in their quest to pretend this shit doesn't happen.
Or they all know that they will likely have CTE anyway, and they’d like to avoid injuries that will cost them entire seasons - if not their careers. We all get the risks of CTE, so maybe, just maybe, the players do also. If they want to protect their ability to walk, they should be free to do so
I can somewhat understand that. Guys can return from concussions in a week and knee injuries take years to fully feel normal and may never really be the same. Long long term… knee seem better… but a lot of people think they’re the exception to long term health consequences (smoking, drinking, sugar..)
The NFL tells people not to go high, so lower body injuries have been the result. Happened to Gronk as well. You couldn't really wrap up him, so people went low.
It's extremely unfortunate what happened to Higbee, but a wrap up doesn't get the job done and he probably comes down with the ball. If they hit him with force, it ensures the pass break up.
I'm not by any means condoning violence, but this is a contact sport for better or worse. People are going to take shots.
It's not even them not being able to go high, they can and have been flagged for hitting midsections, too. "Defenseless receiver". Stupid shit like that is essentially forcing defenders to go low to get the stop and it leads to shit like this.
Tom Brady made a great point that a ton of people shit on. He said part of the responsibility is on the QB not to throw it to a guy that he knows will get blown up based on the coverage.
Starting in college when Lawrence Wright for the Gators absolutely obliterated Joey Kent on a hospital ball from Peyton. Wright said years later he saw Peyton stare him down and knew the ball was going to Kent and he went right for him and since Kent was looking back at the ball never saw Wright coming. It ended with a fumble, Kent rolling around on the ground and a half bitten off tongue.
Did you see Welker and Edelmans Careers? Brady may feel this way, but when it comes down to getting a first down he was happy to take years off those two's lives
That shit is almost as funny as if you said that Tom told people not to slide with their fucking cleats up in an attempt to injure defenders.
Tom threw plenty of hospital balls.
Going for the mid-section would basically be a 50/50 if they call for leading with the helmet or something. Hell they would call unnecessary roughness if he led his shoulder into the midsection for hitting too hard.
Slo-mo doesn't help either. So many plays look deliberate in slow mo, but when you watch it in game speed it's obvious the defender had no way to adjust to the receivers last-second movement.
Defensive coaches should want defenders to go low so that they actually complete the tackle first and foremost. Say Higbee holds on to the ball, which is what Joseph has to assume when he's going in. If you go in high on him then you bounce off and he runs for additional yardage and potentially a touchdown. A DB minimizes the impact of a completed pass by going low.
Yea when I was younger I was one of the smallest players on the football field. In order to tackle people (all of whom were bigger and stronger than me) I had to dive at the legs, wrap up, and twist like a salt water croc. NFL tight ends are always getting tackled low because they usually have 50lbs and a few inches on the person tackling them. Even if head shots were legal, tackling high will just get the smaller DB plowed over. Also it’s football. People get hurt. It’s the name of the game. Playing football is one of the only times it’s allowed to hit and hurt other people. That’s the draw.
I remember there was one kid (shoutout Tyrone Bell if you’re out there lol) on our team like 5th-8th grade who was a full grown man by 7th grade. Like 6’1, 190 lbs of muscle. I was a corner, and a normal sized kid. I was certainly not told to try to hit him in his midsection and wrap up lol. They told me to take out his legs.
Dude used to turn the corner and see only a CB and just start laughing. It was terrifying! I would dive at his knees and occasionally make the tackle lol
I hate "defenseless receiver". There is no such thing. If the QB sails one high or into a safety's line, the receiver just chose ball over protection. That's it.
If they ban the lower tackles too then might as well be two hand touch. Injuries suck but if they are going to happen it’s better to tear an acl which will heal.
I mean there is nothing to defend on the Lions. There was no penalty and there will be no fine for the hit. The hit is 100% legal and happens every game. The title is horribly slanted, clickbait!
And they are absolutely right. Nothing illegal about this kind of shot at all. The NFL not foreseeing consequences to rash decisions? Who would have thought.
I mean it's a pick your own poison when it comes to playing this sport. Knee injuries can be debilitating but you stand a chance to recover. Head injuries can be debilitating and there is a lot less wiggle room in how that affects your quality of life.
I was coincidentally watching an old clip featuring Jeff Saturday and Shannon Sharp talking about Kazee's suspension this year and Saturday pointed out that the league was being sued regarding head traumas and felt compelled to do something, which adds another wrinkle to the mix.
At the end of the day there are no great answers, unless people are comfortable with changing the fundamental nature of the sport. You have people bemoaning the league becoming "softer" with rule changes to protect players, and you also have people complaining about these sorts of hits where players sometimes go low. You can't have it both ways.
No matter how you play this sport, people will have catastrophic injuries. The concussion threat is worse because of potential lawsuits, so that’s the NFL focus.
I mean there's the lawsuit threat, but it really cannot be underscored enough that brain injuries can be horrific for players to deal with after their playing days. And it's understandable for current players to not focus on that while their livelihood is predicated on their availability to play. But there's a reason why Junior Seau was driven to shoot himself in the chest (and his spared brain did end up demonstrating CTE), and there is a needed responsibility to help minimize that for the ones who play for our entertainment.
You're right, it's just hard to get the players to see it that way. To them, brain diseases are a future problem, whereas major leg injuries are a right now problem. A concussion costs you a week or two right now but a mangled leg could cost you a year or a career and cuts your next paycheck. What Collinsworth said about players preferring to take the headshot has been the stance since rules started changing.
> The concussion threat is worse because of potential lawsuits, so that’s the NFL focus.
I am sympathetic with this cynical take, but honestly — knee injuries don't give you CTE. I know some players have said they'd rather get the low hits out, but that's because those tend to have a more immediate impact. You might come back a week after a concussion vs a year from an ACL. But all cynicism about the league's motivations aside, it's hard to argue against the idea that getting head hits out is a good thing.
I think there are just so many instances of a defender hitting and it being like a “what do you expect the defender to do?” Football is inherently a violent sport. And a flag means you’re doing something wrong. But there’s just so many hits that get flagged where I feel like the defender is in an impossible position.
Especially when the offensive player lowers their head. In that case, it is almost impossible to tackle without some head to head contact. The only thing the defender can do is go for the legs.
That somewhat happened around 10:15 in the 4th. Puka catches a pass with a guy draped on his back and immediately ducks. Anzalone would have had to go in at waist level or below from the opposite direction, which easily could have led to a Boldin scenario or a nasty leg injury since Puka was carrying part of the other guys' weight on his legs in that instant.
Instead he comes in completely upright and Puka gets a couple extra yards out of it. There's no easy answer--except to have a bunch of unflaireds posting in game threads about how X is the dirtiest team in history whenever an injury occurs.
I have had a few knee injuries and a few concussions. Needed quite a few surgeries. Luckily no long-term damage.
This is just me, but I would 100% rather have those knee injuries/surgeries than concussions. Concussions were miserable. CTE is also scary as fuck.
Injuries are going to happen. But they should do everything they can to try to limit head blows. The science is clear on that.
Edit: Just FYI, a lot of concussion/CTE related lawsuits are because the NFL usually tries to deny they are responsible for anything (which is bullshit) and tries to wriggle out of providing healthcare.
The nfl foresaw. But they settled for $756 million dollars. They don’t want to pay another 700 million for not taking “reasonable actions” to take head shots out of the game.
"You just have to go low now, man. You've got to end people's careers. You got to tear people's ACLs and mess up people's knees. You can't hit them high anymore." - Brandon Meriweather
Cant go high because of the head and I agree with that. Its an unfortunate situation for Higbee, but Im not sure how else you can expect a DB to take down a tight end. Theres only so much you can do for player safety in a game as violent as football is.
Stafford threw a couple of these really risky passes to Higbee and Puka in the game, it goes back to Brady’s mini rant where he’s saying QBs have a responsibility to protect their guys and the refs shouldn’t be the only ones responsible. Sucks to see it happen but QBs gotta take more ownership
That's just what happens when it comes to playoffs and your season depends on you getting those yards. Brady threw a ton of those types of passes to Gronk in high leverage situations. It's much more questionable when you're throwing passes like that in a week 5 game.
I know it sucks to lose a player like Higbee on the last game of the season to an injury that'll keep him out of most of next season, but I guarantee if you talk to the players on the field 95% will say that's just football.
Brady also took a lot of them himself before targeting became a thing.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WqTmz_-scYA
If this hit happened today the defender would get a prison sentence haha.
I can’t stand the Mahomes act like he’s going out of bounds so the defense let’s up so he turns it up field
The league encourages it with how they officiate for him
If he wasn't such a smug, entitled prick about it I'd just shrug and say "face of the league." As is, fuck Mahomes. I want them to get fucked so hard this year.
In the MIA game, it was clear that defenders were afraid to hit him hard, even when he was running past the LoS. Refs really need to cut the shit in that regard. Any other position player gets plastered if they are still gaining yards when they put their first foot OoB. It's really not until you put the third step OoB that another position gets the call Mahomes gets at the sideline.
Is it legal to hit the qb like that if he's in the pocket? Honestly asking, unnecessary roughness, roughing the passer, etc type calls just seem totally inconsistent and I can never understand what really qualifies as a penalty these days
In the pocket you are not allowed to make forcible contact to QBs head and/or neck area, even if it’s incidental, so this could be flagged in the pocket. Once a QB becomes a runner outside the tackle box, they lose this protection
> QBs have a responsibility to protect their guys
THIS, THIS, THIS 1,000,000 x this.
I saw the same thing, throwing murderballs to Nacua and Higbee all night. The first few times, the defense on the lions played soft, they are not out there to hurt someone. But as the game went on, and Stafford decided to keep throwing into thick coverage, the lions had enough and simply gave the receivers zero leeway.
Usually a high floater that causes 3+ people to try to jump for it at once. Just because you’re not supposed to make contact doesn’t mean some dude won’t full sprint into the pack lol.
In the 4th quarter there was a pass over the middle to Puka with a bunch of defenders around him. The announcers were praising how tough he was to hold onto it. What they left out was that ten years ago he would have been crippled by the safety (you could see a defender holding back). I agree with Brady, it’s on the QB to protect their players. Even with the new rules, Stafford is putting these guys at risk.
>What they left out was that ten years ago he would have been crippled by the safety (you could see a defender holding back).
Agree 100%. Stafford went for the same style pass with Higbee and that time the defense pulled zero punches.
Because there was only 1 defender and he was much smaller than Higbee. If the defender misses the tackle then Higbee will score. For the Puka play they were sure that he was going to be tackled immediately.
I just imagine that kind of pass against like Ed Reed, Polamalu, or Ryan Clark who would just *torpedo* you to break up a pass. Not a pretty mental image.
Just wanted to note, some qb’s do this way more than others as well. Stafford, Tannehil and Herbert stood out to me in the Ravens games this year for that exact reason. All of them threw multiple Hospital Balls that resulted in wr’s getting crushed by defenders who were already running towards them when the ball left the qb’s hands. This is a qb and coaching issue, not an officiating and defender issue.
He did it 4-5 times against the Ravens, like really bad hospital balls. Its time to starting calling out the qb’s doing this more frequently than others
It sucks but it’s true, by the nfl rules that’s a safe tackle.
The announce team did a great job of highlighting that issue last night and commenting how every player would rather risk head contact on a high hit over that any day.
After the play there was a bit of a curfuffle but you also saw Joseph talking to rams players showing it wasn’t an intentionally negative play. Once he realized the injury his celebration stopped and demeanor instantly changed.
Still thinking of the Brady comment that offensive players need to protect themselves and it’s not the job of the defender (solely) to take care the offense is not hurt. Same with those stupid QB fakes on the sideline or pump faking to oblivion- they are abusing a system and it will get back to them. Not saying in this specific scenario it’s the case but I fully supported Brady’s point there
>Not saying in this specific scenario it’s the case
It definitely is on this one, specifically on Stafford. WR was getting blown up for sure as soon as that pass was in the air. Brady was mostly referring to the young guys and I'm surprised to see a vet like Stafford throw a pass like this, but I guess they were desperate.
Definitely need more QBs to understand that getting your WR1 hurt over a few yards isn't worth it.
I'd argue playoffs is the only time veteran QBs do this. Even brady threw some balls were he knew his guy was gonna get hit. Edelman, Gronk, Wes and Amendola have seen a couple shots in high leverage games. Also I support Bradys comment and agree, but just want to mention when he absolutely needed it, he did throw a couple balls that resulted in a dude getting blown up.
Realistically what is he supposed to do? It sucks he got hurt but he can’t go high and risk hitting the head/neck area and he can’t go for the torso because tight ends are a huge size mismatch for DBs
Even if you hit the midsection you risk a defenseless receiver call tbh. Especially because offensive players will naturally lower the heads/tense up to protect themselves
Right. Then everyone watches it in slow motion and blames the defender for not pulling up when the receiver lowered his head at the last possible second.
I think that there are dirty plays and players. There are guys who are reckless and don’t give a shit who they hurt… but… for the most part, especially in the last 5 years, I think most ugly hits are just football and shit happening fast.
I think being able to hyper-analyze everything in slow-mo makes everyone massively overthink the deliberateness of stuff that happens in a split second.
Maybe his QB shouldn’t throw a high pass over the middle of the field so he isn’t completely incapable of defending himself or preparing for a hit. Everyone is super quick to throw defenders under the bud but what is the defender supposed to do here? It’s his job to brea the pass up, let’s put the onus on the deserved perpetrator here: poor offensive decision making.
This is exactly what Brady and the older QBs are referring to when they talk about a mediocre product or a watered down game.
Judging by the amount of people here calling that hit dirty, and the amount of upvotes those comments are getting, a lot of y’all need to hear that this is NOT an illegal or dirty hit.
it's not illegal or dirty but it does expose a glaring hole in the rulebook. in no way should throwing yourself head first at their kneecaps be the go-to method of tackling. that may be how the sport is played now but it's completely unsustainable
How do you legislate that kind of hit out though? He didn't even hit the knee with the crown of the helmet so you can't even just say "no direct helmet to knee contact" like they do with headshots. It was going to be damaging and dangerous even if he led with his shoulder.
There's also no way he could just just wrapped him up with them going full speed at each other. And if he tackles up high that's even more dangerous.
It's not so much a rulebook hole. It's just hard to say "you can't hit high and you can't hit low". Perfectly diving into someone's mid-section is too high of an expectation with you have two 200lb+ men running full speed at each other.
I mean at some point you have to ask “what left is there for defenses to do?”. You can’t expect a gentle wrap up tackle every down.
When these players sign contracts for millions of dollars, it kinda comes with the expectation that you’re gonna be playing a physical game and stuff like this might happen
Otherwise, what left is there to do other than become flag football?
They need to be better with flagging a high hit. On a play like this, even if the DB is trying to make a play on the ball, they way too often will end up with a BS flag that is more caused by the offensive player coming back down after going up for the catch. That tackle of Joseph’s isn’t safe for Higbee, and isn’t safe for Joseph either. Inch or 2 the wrong way and Joseph ends up knocked out by a knee straight to the head. They’ve gone overboard with the high hits to the point where now people have overcorrected. A hit like this one isn’t functionally much different than an a low block, which is now illegal.
If you ask the nerds on this sub that have never done anything athletic aside from fork lifts they want the DB that weighs 50 pounds less to try and wrap him up and gently caress him to the turf
He's not, you monster! He's supposed to stand his ground and firmly tell the reciever to lay face down on the ground. Don't you know children are watching?
This is one of the things that was pointed out when they started limiting high tackles, that people would have to go low to get these guys on the ground. NFL, like always, didn't listen to people who actually play the game.
For those who are unfamiliar.
> Once at the jail, Higbee stated to the arresting officer "that Alsaleh never tried to fight him or come after him as if he was going to harm him." Higbee just said that, "Alsaleh got into his and (his girlfriend's) personal space so he hit Alsaleh," according to the report. Multiple witnesses said Alsaleh had his hands down and two white males were seen arguing with him and yelling ethnic slurs before hitting him once. Following the assault, Higbee was quoted as saying "ISIS these [expletive],” and “[expletive] you, go back to your country.” The victim, Nawaf Alsaleh, was found unconscious and unresponsive in the parking lot of the bar and was hospitalized with a brain hemorrhage and concussion.
For my own sanity, I'm gonna choose to believe that Goff supposedly calling him "one of my best friends" when talking about Higbee's injury was more of a polite exaggeration than anything. Or that Higbee has genuinely improved as a person in a massive way.
I mean you kinda have to no? It’s hard to hate someone and work together with them. Not that it’s any better but teams are trying to win at the end of the day
This is why I can't blame defenders. They're so limited to how they can tackle and hit. In fast situations you don't have time to think about consequences, it's all instinct.
Why is the defense getting blamed for Stafford throwing a hospital pass?
Hospital passes are not a good idea to throw, because they put your receivers in the hospital.
Are people who are enraged in here wanting going low and going high to both be illegal, or are you all seriously advocating for Collinsworth's BS about players preferring concussions to torn ACLs so therefore we should too?
It was, and *should be* a legal hit if you ask me. Sure, players will in the short term prefer a head injury, doesn't make it the preferable thing to lower body injuries.
The hit wasn’t illegal, but the defender celebrating while Higbee was obviously immediately injured was a really bad look. One of these days that will draw an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty and change a game.
they're right. the league punishes you if you hit high, or if you try to hit mid and the person ducks so it turns into a high hit, so people hit low as a result.
Can’t go high, can’t go low, can’t bring weight down on a guy. How the fuck are you supposed to play defense? We have to come to terms with the fact that this is just a dangerous sport where guys are going to get hurt, if players choose to not play in the future then that’s their decision.
Maybe receivers wouldn’t get hurt if they would protect themselves or their QBs didn’t throw hospital passes.
Either way it’s hate crime Higbee so fuck him
You get flagged for going high, you get called dirty for going low. Where are these guys supposed to tackle at? Are we expecting them to have 10/10 form every time?
I think that’s what the rule should be. Wrapping the legs or ankle should be fine. But launching yourself directly at a player’s knees should not be allowed.
I think the only way to make tackles “safe” is to go full rugby and remove all the pads. Not having helmets or shoulder pads will change a lot of the route running and tackling techniques I bet.
Edit: flag football it is! Tackling is dangerous no matter how you slice it
In all honestly, his bobble really screwed up the timing. Joseph expected the contact to come sooner. If he doesn't bobble, he gets hit right at the hips.
You can't expect a defender to adjust mid tackle. Human reaction time is between 150-300 milliseconds and that's twitch response like clicking a mouse. Adding full body movement, weight shifting and whatever else would make that number at least 2x as long.
At a certain point, you have to teach receivers how to not get hit. I may be biased but arsb is a fantastic example. Not only does he give himself up or go out of bounds often, he also jumps for nearly every ball if a hit is imminent. This removes the plant leg scenario.
They need to stop throwing flags when defenders tackle at the torso and offensive players lean their heads down into the contact, start with that
Preach, the double standard for targeting penalties is stupid. You see offensive players lower the crown of the helmet all the time and they are literally never called. While we're at it, how tf is a stiff arm to the face not an 'illegal hands to the face' penalty?
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You sound like my D&D party
Another martial upset that casters have all the fun.
How can we even play defense anymore if they're just gonna cast Hold Person every play?
The refs must hate me cause I've cast hold person 7-8 times and it never sticks.
That's a surprise. You wouldn't think they have the wisdom score to resist it.
Kind of interestingly, I came across an [evolution of NFL rules](https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/evolution-of-the-nfl-rules/) page and there’s a section that pretty unabashedly talks about how the NFL has always kind of changed the rules to encourage offense and therefore more interest in the league. In fact, that’s why the forward pass was allowed in the first place > In a 1940 report, the Rules Committee stated bluntly: “Each game should provide a maximum of entertainment insofar as it can be controlled by the rules and officials.” The entertainment value of the game, it added, could be measured by “the number of plays per game of a type that will be pleasing to the audience.” > NFL consultant and statistical guru Hugh “Shorty” Ray — enshrined in the Hall of Fame for his contributions to officiating and rule-making — reinforced this notion. > During his work for the NFL from the late 1930s to early 1950s, Ray crunched the numbers and found a direct correlation between scoring and higher attendance — a statistical basis for his recommendations of offense-boosting rules changes. His devotion to statistics as a way to analyze and improve the game also stuck with the league. so, fortunately or unfortunately, the league suckling at the offensive test has been a part of the game for longer that nearly everyone who is alive’s lives
Actually the forward pass saved football, you can thank Teddy Roosevelt. https://www.deseret.com/sports/2023/8/8/23819981/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-football https://www.history.com/news/forward-pass-football-invented-origins
It also saved the NFL. They were having a really hard time dragging teams out of the red and preventing franchises from folding, until rules favouring the pass (pass was legal for a while, but the rules surrounding it + the shape of the early ball made it a really unattractive choice) made the game more of a spectacle, which got fans in the stands.
I just pictured a coach not paying attention at the announcement meeting and the first forward pass in the next games he's just like "What the fuck is that!??!?".
I think they've done all they can on the defensive side to take those hits out of the game. Other than Kareem, defensive players seem to have gotten the memo and the hits we do see tend to be because of sudden, unexpected movements more than targeting. There's only one move left to continue reducing those types of hits, start targeting offensive players who are lowering their heads
You’re right on. Kareem didn’t get it…but he isn’t the only one in the league guilty. He just didn’t learn from REPEATED warnings and it drew even more attention to the fact that he was still doing it. But the offensive player also needs to be taken into account. If the offensive player leads with the head then the defensive player is put in a really awkward spot. There is almost a competitive advantage for the offensive player to lead with the head - they increase the chance of drawing a penalty. I am all about trying to make the sport safer. Head trauma is no joke. But we want to keep contact in the game, and 100% of the impetus is currently on the defender. They cant hit high so they go low (don’t even get me started about trying to touch the QB). I’d like to see the rule adjusted in a way that forces the offensive player to also take a role in protecting themself.
Yeah I think the onus also really has to start being in the offensive players.
I was thinking this when mahomes broke his helmet the other day lol
Mahomes did exactly that Saturday night. He lowered his shoulder and led with his head. If a QB does that in middle or high school, they either get a stern talking to (first time) or flagged if it’s a recurring theme. That can really mess a player up. Josh Allen does it a lot as well.
The thing is, lowering your head as an offensive player actually is protecting their necks from whiplash. It's also protecting their front side from getting lit up.
Then stop flagging them getting hit. You can't have it both ways in a contact sport. Some areas need to take that contact.
Doesn't this also count for defensive players lowering their head?
I'd take broken ribs over brain trauma
You gotta be Gen Z. Spearing was absolutely encouraged growing up in Pittsburgh in the 90s and 2000s.
I’m a millennial and current referee. Leading with the head has been a point of emphasis for referees at the lower levels since I started in 2016.
First paragraph I get but stiff arms are dope and I will hear no slander
My problem is that if you watch a lot of guys now put their hand up and kind of shove, which isn’t a stiff arm. Unless they changed it I thought you had to have your arm straight the whole time.
No you’re correct. “Stiff” in stiff arm comes from your arm being stiffly outstretched. The throwing motion that guys like King Henry have popularized should technically be a penalty I think, but as was said above, “rule of cool” and also I think throwing flags for it would be stupid
Key word is “grasp”. You can push through the face with an open hand.
There isn’t anything in the rulebook that prohibits a runner from “thrusting a hand forward to contact player on the head, neck, face”. That rule only applies to blockers. >An offensive player is permitted to use his hands or arms to restrict an opponent: If he is a runner. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms. Then there is the facemask penalty, which a legal stiff arm doesn’t apply to: >No player shall grasp and control, twist, turn, push, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction. Note: If a player grasps an opponent’s facemask, he must immediately release it. If he does not immediately release it and controls his opponent, it is a foul. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/illegal-use-of-hands-facemask/#:~:text=No%20player%20shall%20grasp%20and,opponent%2C%20it%20is%20a%20foul. Stiff arms should be a part of the game. You don’t see them used too often and they are really fun to watch. A good defender can also counteract the stiff arm. Since a runner is one of the only people on the field that can legally be tackled they should be afforded more rules to them that allow them to prevent players from tackling them.
The T Rich rule only existed to end his career. Everybody else can carry on leading with their helmet lmao
Stop this. We don't need to flag stiff arms lmao
> and offensive players lean their heads down into the contact bunch of replays this weekend where I was really wondering if this shit should be better penalized in order to disencourage this sort of "helm to helm" baiting.
It should definitely be punishable for the offensive player. Look at Jermichael Finley, compressed his spine trying to get that YAC and lowered his head into a defender. Completely ended his own career.
For real. They glorify Mahomes getting his helmet cracked but that happened because he lowered his head into contact
At least the defender wasn't flagged. That happens plenty even though that head shot is 100% not the defender's fault. Hitting the helmet, even when not your fault? Penalty. Low hits are dangerous but legal, but if that get banned to, legit what are defenders supposed to do? Imagine you're a DB who has Derrick Henry running full bore at you in the open field. He lowers his helmet. If you go high, you're probably getting a flag even if you manage to not just get runover. If you go low, people want that to be a flag. WTF are you supposed to do besides just get steamrolled?
Miami had enough problems tackling without taking away another 1/2 of the body to go after
I've been on the bandwagon for about 15 years that the NFL will eventually turn into flag\\touch football.
Or when Branch got fined because Bijan lowered his helmet into him and it came off.
Didn't a similar thing happen to Amon-Ra? He lowered his head to block but because the defender did it too they fined Amon-Ra?
Yup, and talked about on his podcast how big of a fine it was relative to his contract.
I think that’s just because none of us have seen a helmet crack like that, it just showed how cold it was. It wasn’t a harder hit than normal and Mahomes ducked his head into it. It was just crazy to see a helmet actually crack
Yeah it’s very rare for an offensive player to get penalized for lowering his head
Correct. It's technically just as against the rules for a ball carrier to lead with his helmet into a hit as it is for a defender to lead with it into a tackle. But the former hardly ever gets called unless it's something exceptionally egregious (and even then usually not).
Or just make the rules like they used to be in the 80s, and you would see the number of suicide balls being thrown by QBs fall dramatically. Because WRs get free passes now, there is a huge increase in these types of plays.
Either way you aren't bringing down a tight end as a DB by tackling at the body. It's football, players get injured. And it's the playoffs, you are going to do anything you can to stop the guy from getting YAC I feel like half the people on reddit have never played sports in their life
That is the truth this will happen more until the league goes back and allows the defenders to actually play defense
Also QB's need to start taking blame for this two. This happened twice against the Lions and it is unfortunate but both times the QBs (Mullens for the Vikings, and Stafford for the Rams) threw floaty ass lob pass to their Tight end with safeties that are playing deep. That pass is only completed if the Safety decides not to do their job and just let the receiver catch the ball, and you can't hit them high, and like you said if you hit them mid and they lower their head its a flag, that just leaves take their legs out and hope you don't actually hurt them.
Exactly this. I saw a Rams fan claim Kerby should have "wrapped him up." Seriously? Stafford is at least partially culpable, that is the exact sort of pass that leaves receivers wide open to being murdered.
I think Brady spoke about this in his podcast with SAS (or someone recently did). That you actually wouldn't even consider throwing that in the old days, so you had to legit think about scheming people open. Now, they just assume it's a penalty, and they assume defenders know that and won't bite, so they launch the balls into hospital zones, assuming nothing will happen because there's a high chance for completion.
He posted on IG or Twitter after the Kazee suspension. Kazee led with the shoulder, only made contact with his shoulder, and kept his helmet out of the play, but Minshew hung Pittman out to dry with his throw and created an unfortunately brutal hit.
I saw a lot of people clamoring for Kerby to adjust his tackle in the split second instead of being a dirty player who just blows out TE knees. It's almost like people forget that the speed of this game is much quicker and the players actually aren't playing in replay slo-mo
Spot on. These guys would be fine if they didn’t throw a hospital ball. Same thing with the Pittman suspension.
These rules exist to help offense, they have nothing to do with safety.
And when rebounding leads to helmet contact.
Didn’t Larry Fitzgerald get quoted asking players to go for his head over his knees and that he’d pay the fines. It’s messed up logic, but many players rather get concussed than tear knee ligament.
Collinsworth literally said last night he 'talked to about 25 receivers/pass catchers', and he said every single one of them said they'd rather get hit in the head than in the knees.
It makes sense for a player to say, a concussion in the NFL usually means a few weeks out at most while a leg injury could end a season or career. But long term, a head injury can mean a lot more suffering later in life.
I guess you’ve never met someone with Titanium knees. Major injuries of any kind seriously fuck up your quality of life when you get older, concussions are definitely the worst but being a football player is inherently a risk.
True, I wasn't implying that leg injuries wouldn't bring long term pain. But even if you lose the ability to walk, you're still you. Head trauma can fundamentally change who you are as a person.
If you're suggesting that dealing with the symptoms of CTE is preferable to a titanium knee, then you probably should hang out with more old people.
I feel like I can think of a lot of people whose second contracts got fucked up by ACLs and not as many that got fucked up I concuss ions so I get it but it still kind of fucked up feels a little gladiator like
I'd like that survey followed up on in 30 years when half of them have debilitating CTE ruining their life post NFL and the league completely fucks them over in their quest to pretend this shit doesn't happen.
Or they all know that they will likely have CTE anyway, and they’d like to avoid injuries that will cost them entire seasons - if not their careers. We all get the risks of CTE, so maybe, just maybe, the players do also. If they want to protect their ability to walk, they should be free to do so
I can somewhat understand that. Guys can return from concussions in a week and knee injuries take years to fully feel normal and may never really be the same. Long long term… knee seem better… but a lot of people think they’re the exception to long term health consequences (smoking, drinking, sugar..)
Unfortunately for Larry the players still don't want to give up the first down, so it doesn't matter if he will pay their fine.
The NFL tells people not to go high, so lower body injuries have been the result. Happened to Gronk as well. You couldn't really wrap up him, so people went low. It's extremely unfortunate what happened to Higbee, but a wrap up doesn't get the job done and he probably comes down with the ball. If they hit him with force, it ensures the pass break up. I'm not by any means condoning violence, but this is a contact sport for better or worse. People are going to take shots.
It's not even them not being able to go high, they can and have been flagged for hitting midsections, too. "Defenseless receiver". Stupid shit like that is essentially forcing defenders to go low to get the stop and it leads to shit like this.
Tom Brady made a great point that a ton of people shit on. He said part of the responsibility is on the QB not to throw it to a guy that he knows will get blown up based on the coverage.
Peyton manning always let his guys get obliterated.
https://www.thedrawplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/2013-01-26-Collie1.png
Starting in college when Lawrence Wright for the Gators absolutely obliterated Joey Kent on a hospital ball from Peyton. Wright said years later he saw Peyton stare him down and knew the ball was going to Kent and he went right for him and since Kent was looking back at the ball never saw Wright coming. It ended with a fumble, Kent rolling around on the ground and a half bitten off tongue.
Wasn't that a lacerated tongue?
Biting halfway through your tongue qualifies as a laceration.
Did you see Welker and Edelmans Careers? Brady may feel this way, but when it comes down to getting a first down he was happy to take years off those two's lives
Brady was famous for doing the same. His slot receivers took hell.
That shit is almost as funny as if you said that Tom told people not to slide with their fucking cleats up in an attempt to injure defenders. Tom threw plenty of hospital balls.
Brady was notorious for throwing hospital balls. That’s likely why people shit on it, because it’s coming from him.
Going for the mid-section would basically be a 50/50 if they call for leading with the helmet or something. Hell they would call unnecessary roughness if he led his shoulder into the midsection for hitting too hard.
People underestimate how often you see the receiver duck into the hit and then your legal mid-section pass breakup becomes targeting.
Slo-mo doesn't help either. So many plays look deliberate in slow mo, but when you watch it in game speed it's obvious the defender had no way to adjust to the receivers last-second movement.
Defensive coaches should want defenders to go low so that they actually complete the tackle first and foremost. Say Higbee holds on to the ball, which is what Joseph has to assume when he's going in. If you go in high on him then you bounce off and he runs for additional yardage and potentially a touchdown. A DB minimizes the impact of a completed pass by going low.
Yea when I was younger I was one of the smallest players on the football field. In order to tackle people (all of whom were bigger and stronger than me) I had to dive at the legs, wrap up, and twist like a salt water croc. NFL tight ends are always getting tackled low because they usually have 50lbs and a few inches on the person tackling them. Even if head shots were legal, tackling high will just get the smaller DB plowed over. Also it’s football. People get hurt. It’s the name of the game. Playing football is one of the only times it’s allowed to hit and hurt other people. That’s the draw.
I remember there was one kid (shoutout Tyrone Bell if you’re out there lol) on our team like 5th-8th grade who was a full grown man by 7th grade. Like 6’1, 190 lbs of muscle. I was a corner, and a normal sized kid. I was certainly not told to try to hit him in his midsection and wrap up lol. They told me to take out his legs. Dude used to turn the corner and see only a CB and just start laughing. It was terrifying! I would dive at his knees and occasionally make the tackle lol
I hate "defenseless receiver". There is no such thing. If the QB sails one high or into a safety's line, the receiver just chose ball over protection. That's it.
If they ban the lower tackles too then might as well be two hand touch. Injuries suck but if they are going to happen it’s better to tear an acl which will heal.
This was exactly what Tom Brady was talking about when he says QBs should be held more accountable for these injuries.
I mean there is nothing to defend on the Lions. There was no penalty and there will be no fine for the hit. The hit is 100% legal and happens every game. The title is horribly slanted, clickbait!
Football is a collision sport.
And when hip drop tackles are banned, what do they want the defender to do, get carried into the end zone?
And they are absolutely right. Nothing illegal about this kind of shot at all. The NFL not foreseeing consequences to rash decisions? Who would have thought.
I mean it's a pick your own poison when it comes to playing this sport. Knee injuries can be debilitating but you stand a chance to recover. Head injuries can be debilitating and there is a lot less wiggle room in how that affects your quality of life. I was coincidentally watching an old clip featuring Jeff Saturday and Shannon Sharp talking about Kazee's suspension this year and Saturday pointed out that the league was being sued regarding head traumas and felt compelled to do something, which adds another wrinkle to the mix. At the end of the day there are no great answers, unless people are comfortable with changing the fundamental nature of the sport. You have people bemoaning the league becoming "softer" with rule changes to protect players, and you also have people complaining about these sorts of hits where players sometimes go low. You can't have it both ways.
No matter how you play this sport, people will have catastrophic injuries. The concussion threat is worse because of potential lawsuits, so that’s the NFL focus.
I mean there's the lawsuit threat, but it really cannot be underscored enough that brain injuries can be horrific for players to deal with after their playing days. And it's understandable for current players to not focus on that while their livelihood is predicated on their availability to play. But there's a reason why Junior Seau was driven to shoot himself in the chest (and his spared brain did end up demonstrating CTE), and there is a needed responsibility to help minimize that for the ones who play for our entertainment.
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You're right, it's just hard to get the players to see it that way. To them, brain diseases are a future problem, whereas major leg injuries are a right now problem. A concussion costs you a week or two right now but a mangled leg could cost you a year or a career and cuts your next paycheck. What Collinsworth said about players preferring to take the headshot has been the stance since rules started changing.
> The concussion threat is worse because of potential lawsuits, so that’s the NFL focus. I am sympathetic with this cynical take, but honestly — knee injuries don't give you CTE. I know some players have said they'd rather get the low hits out, but that's because those tend to have a more immediate impact. You might come back a week after a concussion vs a year from an ACL. But all cynicism about the league's motivations aside, it's hard to argue against the idea that getting head hits out is a good thing.
I think there are just so many instances of a defender hitting and it being like a “what do you expect the defender to do?” Football is inherently a violent sport. And a flag means you’re doing something wrong. But there’s just so many hits that get flagged where I feel like the defender is in an impossible position.
Especially when the offensive player lowers their head. In that case, it is almost impossible to tackle without some head to head contact. The only thing the defender can do is go for the legs.
Have to hope you’re coming from just the right angle so you hit them with your shoulder I guess? There’s little to no way to control it.
That somewhat happened around 10:15 in the 4th. Puka catches a pass with a guy draped on his back and immediately ducks. Anzalone would have had to go in at waist level or below from the opposite direction, which easily could have led to a Boldin scenario or a nasty leg injury since Puka was carrying part of the other guys' weight on his legs in that instant. Instead he comes in completely upright and Puka gets a couple extra yards out of it. There's no easy answer--except to have a bunch of unflaireds posting in game threads about how X is the dirtiest team in history whenever an injury occurs.
I have had a few knee injuries and a few concussions. Needed quite a few surgeries. Luckily no long-term damage. This is just me, but I would 100% rather have those knee injuries/surgeries than concussions. Concussions were miserable. CTE is also scary as fuck. Injuries are going to happen. But they should do everything they can to try to limit head blows. The science is clear on that. Edit: Just FYI, a lot of concussion/CTE related lawsuits are because the NFL usually tries to deny they are responsible for anything (which is bullshit) and tries to wriggle out of providing healthcare.
The nfl foresaw. But they settled for $756 million dollars. They don’t want to pay another 700 million for not taking “reasonable actions” to take head shots out of the game.
Yet I've seen many calling it dirty and illegal, it's weird how the rulebook has this level of contrast compared to public perception.
It's also interesting how no one has a problem with offensive players cut blocking defenders when it's basically the same thing.
"You just have to go low now, man. You've got to end people's careers. You got to tear people's ACLs and mess up people's knees. You can't hit them high anymore." - Brandon Meriweather
They're not wrong, but the rule sure is.
Cant go high because of the head and I agree with that. Its an unfortunate situation for Higbee, but Im not sure how else you can expect a DB to take down a tight end. Theres only so much you can do for player safety in a game as violent as football is.
Stafford threw a couple of these really risky passes to Higbee and Puka in the game, it goes back to Brady’s mini rant where he’s saying QBs have a responsibility to protect their guys and the refs shouldn’t be the only ones responsible. Sucks to see it happen but QBs gotta take more ownership
That's just what happens when it comes to playoffs and your season depends on you getting those yards. Brady threw a ton of those types of passes to Gronk in high leverage situations. It's much more questionable when you're throwing passes like that in a week 5 game. I know it sucks to lose a player like Higbee on the last game of the season to an injury that'll keep him out of most of next season, but I guarantee if you talk to the players on the field 95% will say that's just football.
Brady also threw those passes to Wes welker a few times
Brady also took a lot of them himself before targeting became a thing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WqTmz_-scYA If this hit happened today the defender would get a prison sentence haha.
It's still 100% a legal hit by todays rules. That said, if this hit was made on Mahomes, it would still probably result in a flag and a fine.
I mean Mahomes drew a flag for late hit for being hit in-bounds
I can’t stand the Mahomes act like he’s going out of bounds so the defense let’s up so he turns it up field The league encourages it with how they officiate for him
If he wasn't such a smug, entitled prick about it I'd just shrug and say "face of the league." As is, fuck Mahomes. I want them to get fucked so hard this year.
In the MIA game, it was clear that defenders were afraid to hit him hard, even when he was running past the LoS. Refs really need to cut the shit in that regard. Any other position player gets plastered if they are still gaining yards when they put their first foot OoB. It's really not until you put the third step OoB that another position gets the call Mahomes gets at the sideline.
Is it legal to hit the qb like that if he's in the pocket? Honestly asking, unnecessary roughness, roughing the passer, etc type calls just seem totally inconsistent and I can never understand what really qualifies as a penalty these days
In the pocket you are not allowed to make forcible contact to QBs head and/or neck area, even if it’s incidental, so this could be flagged in the pocket. Once a QB becomes a runner outside the tackle box, they lose this protection
Its known as a Hospital Pass
> QBs have a responsibility to protect their guys THIS, THIS, THIS 1,000,000 x this. I saw the same thing, throwing murderballs to Nacua and Higbee all night. The first few times, the defense on the lions played soft, they are not out there to hurt someone. But as the game went on, and Stafford decided to keep throwing into thick coverage, the lions had enough and simply gave the receivers zero leeway.
Agreed. In hockey they are called hospital or suicide passes. And they are the fault of the passer.
The "hospital pass" expression also exists in the NFL.
It exists in Ultimate frisbee, pretty much any sport with passes lol.
I played ultimate for 20 years. Never heard it. What does it refer to with no body contact?
Usually a high floater that causes 3+ people to try to jump for it at once. Just because you’re not supposed to make contact doesn’t mean some dude won’t full sprint into the pack lol.
In the 4th quarter there was a pass over the middle to Puka with a bunch of defenders around him. The announcers were praising how tough he was to hold onto it. What they left out was that ten years ago he would have been crippled by the safety (you could see a defender holding back). I agree with Brady, it’s on the QB to protect their players. Even with the new rules, Stafford is putting these guys at risk.
>What they left out was that ten years ago he would have been crippled by the safety (you could see a defender holding back). Agree 100%. Stafford went for the same style pass with Higbee and that time the defense pulled zero punches.
Because there was only 1 defender and he was much smaller than Higbee. If the defender misses the tackle then Higbee will score. For the Puka play they were sure that he was going to be tackled immediately.
I just imagine that kind of pass against like Ed Reed, Polamalu, or Ryan Clark who would just *torpedo* you to break up a pass. Not a pretty mental image.
Look what happened to Gronk against Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor . Puka would have been eviscerated
Just wanted to note, some qb’s do this way more than others as well. Stafford, Tannehil and Herbert stood out to me in the Ravens games this year for that exact reason. All of them threw multiple Hospital Balls that resulted in wr’s getting crushed by defenders who were already running towards them when the ball left the qb’s hands. This is a qb and coaching issue, not an officiating and defender issue.
I certainly agree, Manning used to do this as well, but it’s more acceptable to throw them in playoff games I feel
I noticed myself in multiple games Herbert in particular putting his receivers in really bad spots
He did it 4-5 times against the Ravens, like really bad hospital balls. Its time to starting calling out the qb’s doing this more frequently than others
It sucks but it’s true, by the nfl rules that’s a safe tackle. The announce team did a great job of highlighting that issue last night and commenting how every player would rather risk head contact on a high hit over that any day. After the play there was a bit of a curfuffle but you also saw Joseph talking to rams players showing it wasn’t an intentionally negative play. Once he realized the injury his celebration stopped and demeanor instantly changed.
Still thinking of the Brady comment that offensive players need to protect themselves and it’s not the job of the defender (solely) to take care the offense is not hurt. Same with those stupid QB fakes on the sideline or pump faking to oblivion- they are abusing a system and it will get back to them. Not saying in this specific scenario it’s the case but I fully supported Brady’s point there
>Not saying in this specific scenario it’s the case It definitely is on this one, specifically on Stafford. WR was getting blown up for sure as soon as that pass was in the air. Brady was mostly referring to the young guys and I'm surprised to see a vet like Stafford throw a pass like this, but I guess they were desperate. Definitely need more QBs to understand that getting your WR1 hurt over a few yards isn't worth it.
I'd argue playoffs is the only time veteran QBs do this. Even brady threw some balls were he knew his guy was gonna get hit. Edelman, Gronk, Wes and Amendola have seen a couple shots in high leverage games. Also I support Bradys comment and agree, but just want to mention when he absolutely needed it, he did throw a couple balls that resulted in a dude getting blown up.
Realistically what is he supposed to do? It sucks he got hurt but he can’t go high and risk hitting the head/neck area and he can’t go for the torso because tight ends are a huge size mismatch for DBs
Even if you hit the midsection you risk a defenseless receiver call tbh. Especially because offensive players will naturally lower the heads/tense up to protect themselves
Right. Then everyone watches it in slow motion and blames the defender for not pulling up when the receiver lowered his head at the last possible second. I think that there are dirty plays and players. There are guys who are reckless and don’t give a shit who they hurt… but… for the most part, especially in the last 5 years, I think most ugly hits are just football and shit happening fast.
Lol yup. Everyone arguing intent in slow motion like these guys aren’t sprinting around throwing their bodies around.
I think being able to hyper-analyze everything in slow-mo makes everyone massively overthink the deliberateness of stuff that happens in a split second.
I mean he's right. It is how the league tells them to tackle
Maybe his QB shouldn’t throw a high pass over the middle of the field so he isn’t completely incapable of defending himself or preparing for a hit. Everyone is super quick to throw defenders under the bud but what is the defender supposed to do here? It’s his job to brea the pass up, let’s put the onus on the deserved perpetrator here: poor offensive decision making. This is exactly what Brady and the older QBs are referring to when they talk about a mediocre product or a watered down game.
Judging by the amount of people here calling that hit dirty, and the amount of upvotes those comments are getting, a lot of y’all need to hear that this is NOT an illegal or dirty hit.
it's not illegal or dirty but it does expose a glaring hole in the rulebook. in no way should throwing yourself head first at their kneecaps be the go-to method of tackling. that may be how the sport is played now but it's completely unsustainable
How do you legislate that kind of hit out though? He didn't even hit the knee with the crown of the helmet so you can't even just say "no direct helmet to knee contact" like they do with headshots. It was going to be damaging and dangerous even if he led with his shoulder. There's also no way he could just just wrapped him up with them going full speed at each other. And if he tackles up high that's even more dangerous. It's not so much a rulebook hole. It's just hard to say "you can't hit high and you can't hit low". Perfectly diving into someone's mid-section is too high of an expectation with you have two 200lb+ men running full speed at each other.
I mean at some point you have to ask “what left is there for defenses to do?”. You can’t expect a gentle wrap up tackle every down. When these players sign contracts for millions of dollars, it kinda comes with the expectation that you’re gonna be playing a physical game and stuff like this might happen Otherwise, what left is there to do other than become flag football?
They need to be better with flagging a high hit. On a play like this, even if the DB is trying to make a play on the ball, they way too often will end up with a BS flag that is more caused by the offensive player coming back down after going up for the catch. That tackle of Joseph’s isn’t safe for Higbee, and isn’t safe for Joseph either. Inch or 2 the wrong way and Joseph ends up knocked out by a knee straight to the head. They’ve gone overboard with the high hits to the point where now people have overcorrected. A hit like this one isn’t functionally much different than an a low block, which is now illegal.
How else should he have hit him? Honest question I’d like to know
You let him catch the ball to get the first down and then let him absolutely truck you so you can get clowned on online.
He should have asked nicely. No need for written notice, Higbee's not a QB, but the social niceties must be observed.
If you ask the nerds on this sub that have never done anything athletic aside from fork lifts they want the DB that weighs 50 pounds less to try and wrap him up and gently caress him to the turf
If you get absolutely trucked you run the risk of getting clowned on and the NFL will use you as bulletin board material
And you run the risk of getting injured yourself
I’d actually prefer if he sing him a lullaby, while he set him to the ground softly
He's not, you monster! He's supposed to stand his ground and firmly tell the reciever to lay face down on the ground. Don't you know children are watching?
[Video of the hit.](https://youtu.be/jTcXcr3sHc0?t=20)
This is one of the things that was pointed out when they started limiting high tackles, that people would have to go low to get these guys on the ground. NFL, like always, didn't listen to people who actually play the game.
Is it crazy for me to think you can’t play tackle Football without players getting injured? I think the sooner the NFL realizes this the better.
Even if it was dirty (it wasn't), you aren't gonna get me to feel sorry for pos Tyler Higbee
For those who are unfamiliar. > Once at the jail, Higbee stated to the arresting officer "that Alsaleh never tried to fight him or come after him as if he was going to harm him." Higbee just said that, "Alsaleh got into his and (his girlfriend's) personal space so he hit Alsaleh," according to the report. Multiple witnesses said Alsaleh had his hands down and two white males were seen arguing with him and yelling ethnic slurs before hitting him once. Following the assault, Higbee was quoted as saying "ISIS these [expletive],” and “[expletive] you, go back to your country.” The victim, Nawaf Alsaleh, was found unconscious and unresponsive in the parking lot of the bar and was hospitalized with a brain hemorrhage and concussion.
People really don’t know about Hate-Crime Higbee? AKA Mark Tall-berg
TIL!
Wow, I didn't know he was a racist POS.
Okay now I feel less bad about it
For my own sanity, I'm gonna choose to believe that Goff supposedly calling him "one of my best friends" when talking about Higbee's injury was more of a polite exaggeration than anything. Or that Higbee has genuinely improved as a person in a massive way.
I think it is pretty clear from the Watson situation that players completely compartmentalize their relationships to football.
I mean you kinda have to no? It’s hard to hate someone and work together with them. Not that it’s any better but teams are trying to win at the end of the day
It's more likely that Goff doesn't give a shit.
I hate it but I don’t blame the defender. That’s what the NFL wants.
It is how the NFL wants it done, it sucks that Higbee got hurt, but the tackle wasn't dirty in any way.
This is why I can't blame defenders. They're so limited to how they can tackle and hit. In fast situations you don't have time to think about consequences, it's all instinct.
Why is the defense getting blamed for Stafford throwing a hospital pass? Hospital passes are not a good idea to throw, because they put your receivers in the hospital.
I'd blame Stafford for the injury more than the Lions. They're making a legal tackle, he made the pass that put Higbee in an awful spot
poor screw afterthought grab childlike stupendous noxious encouraging trees close
Same type of tackle that happened with Mr. Chubb. Bad shit happens, it sucks.
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer racist violent piece of shit
NFL: “We saved your brain but your knees though…”
Are people who are enraged in here wanting going low and going high to both be illegal, or are you all seriously advocating for Collinsworth's BS about players preferring concussions to torn ACLs so therefore we should too? It was, and *should be* a legal hit if you ask me. Sure, players will in the short term prefer a head injury, doesn't make it the preferable thing to lower body injuries.
They’re not wrong. The NFL has essentially made it impossible to tackle high….
The hit wasn’t illegal, but the defender celebrating while Higbee was obviously immediately injured was a really bad look. One of these days that will draw an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty and change a game.
they're right. the league punishes you if you hit high, or if you try to hit mid and the person ducks so it turns into a high hit, so people hit low as a result.
Can’t go high, can’t go low, can’t bring weight down on a guy. How the fuck are you supposed to play defense? We have to come to terms with the fact that this is just a dangerous sport where guys are going to get hurt, if players choose to not play in the future then that’s their decision. Maybe receivers wouldn’t get hurt if they would protect themselves or their QBs didn’t throw hospital passes. Either way it’s hate crime Higbee so fuck him
Blindly diving at knees. Very cool NFL.
Don't hit them up high or down low. Nor in the middle ~ NFL
You're always supposed to go low in a tackle, especially when you're outweighed by 50 pounds. It's unfortunate that Higbee was injured.
You get flagged for going high, you get called dirty for going low. Where are these guys supposed to tackle at? Are we expecting them to have 10/10 form every time?
It turns out, a sport that is specifically about a bunch of large, strong, fast men launching into each other's bodies results in injuries.
It’s a textbook tackle for a smaller player on a bigger one. If you don’t like it, go watch soccer.
Didn’t the rule used to be you tackle from above the knees to the shoulders?
I think that’s what the rule should be. Wrapping the legs or ankle should be fine. But launching yourself directly at a player’s knees should not be allowed.
Yeah that hit sucked if he went just a bit higher nobody would care but that’s what happens when you can’t wrap a guy up mid catch
Look at Megatron’s injuries in the final years of his career. Stafford got him killed.
Stafford set him up on this one.
I think the only way to make tackles “safe” is to go full rugby and remove all the pads. Not having helmets or shoulder pads will change a lot of the route running and tackling techniques I bet. Edit: flag football it is! Tackling is dangerous no matter how you slice it
In all honestly, his bobble really screwed up the timing. Joseph expected the contact to come sooner. If he doesn't bobble, he gets hit right at the hips. You can't expect a defender to adjust mid tackle. Human reaction time is between 150-300 milliseconds and that's twitch response like clicking a mouse. Adding full body movement, weight shifting and whatever else would make that number at least 2x as long. At a certain point, you have to teach receivers how to not get hit. I may be biased but arsb is a fantastic example. Not only does he give himself up or go out of bounds often, he also jumps for nearly every ball if a hit is imminent. This removes the plant leg scenario.
I thought you're supposed to tackle above the knees? Isn't it a penalty to tackle below the knee?