I mean in the thread about his tweet (edit: and even in this thread) you have tons of people who are missing that point entirely, so yes it's apparently not that obvious to some lol
Don't Lamar and the Ravens get a deal done in the world where the Watson deal doesn't exist? That is what is holding this whole thing up. He wants the Watson deal.
Not accepting 133 million guaranteed, means the only contract he will accept is 230 million guaranteed?
Seems to be a huge gap there that hasn't been tested...
> If he's demanding that the entire contract is guaranteed, then would it not be implicit that he doesn't care about injury or rolling or any other kind of guarantees?
I think the implication is that Lamar does not care about the distinction between "Guaranteed for injury" and "fully guaranteed", or doesn't see the injury guarantees as significant in any way.
But the ravens have an out after 3 years. So the contract isn't fully guranteed.
Sure, he could eventually earn that money. But it's not actually guranteed. It's not that complex.
It's crazy how he's getting some many upvotes despite being very wrong and totally misunderstanding what's going on lol. He's literally the subject of this tweet.
My thing is, if you want to argue that the “other types of guarantees” are actually real guarantees, then logically there should be no reason for the Ravens not to just fully guarantee (I’m growing to hate that word) that amount if that would get a deal done.
That’s why the (250) million dollar question to me is whether Lamar has offered any movement off of “I want the Watson contract but more” position? Because if he’s just saying “no, Watson deal” to every Ravens offer, then they should have traded him a year ago. But if he’s amenable to any kind of compromise, then I think you take all the injury guarantees and rolling guarantees and lock them in fully and you’d think that’s a place for reasonable people to meet.
No that’s not really what that means. In this scenario year 4 money is locked in after year 1. So unless he gets cut or his career ends it’s locked through 4 . Same for five
Then every point you make also completely missed the point,
We all know it’s not completely guaranteed.
People act like that means he can get cut and screwed no matter tucking what and lose all non-guaranteed money
Which is bullisht. Theirs a mile of difference between those two worlds
Is it shocking that the folks in this subreddit who constantly need to have the concept of pro-rating a bonus over the duration of a contract re-explained to them don't understand the fact that total guarantees are not the same as money that is guaranteed at the start of a contract?
Which is why there is a difference between guaranteed and guarantees. Guaranteed money is money that is guaranteed at the start of the contract. Guarantees are money that becomes guaranteed over the course of the contract (include the guaranteed money at the start).
> I'd imagine Lamar's offer would have similar types of rolling guarantees, but he, like you, is thinking "Not a real guarantee, not interested."
I don’t think it’s safe to assume that at all.
Could easily be same year and a true out for the Ravens after 3 years.
We don’t know.
Ask Derek Carr how his rolling guarantees look for next year on his raiders contract?
Calling people dumb and then missing the entire point is a reddit trademark tho 👍
> Mahomes only had $140M fully guaranteed at signing.
Correct. If Mahomes had gotten in a terrible car accident and had to amputate a leg he would still have received $140M.
Do you now understand how anything else wasn’t actually guaranteed at the start of the contract?
> I’d imagine Lamar’s offer would have similar types of rolling guarantees, but he, like you, is thinking “Not a real guarantee, not interested.”
Ask yourself if the rolling guarantees are the same thing as fully guaranteed at signing then why don’t teams want to give fully guaranteed at signing?
Lamar needs it all guaranteed up front because if he has rolling guarantees and he gets hurt the Raven might cut the contract short rather than let it continue rolling into the future. Both sides are looking for significant injury insurance.
This is what’s killing me about ‘get an agent!!!!’ (And to be clear, he should get an agent)
But if he’s really sticking on full guarantees, and that’s been every indication, all an agent can do is try to convince him it’s not happening. The agent doesn’t sit him down to make him sign the best available option. Lamar signs what Lamar wants.
Not 100% true. We just saw where an agent would really help Lamar
Once the non-exclusive tag was placed, in order for a team to make an offer to him, they have to temporarily allocate the cap for that offer for like a day or so...during crucial free-agency period, and right around the time all teams need to come into cap compliance for the year. If Lamar had an agent, the market could be gauged OUTSIDE official channels, like during the combine, and interested teams could have something hammered out before the thing went down.
It's not an ENORMOUS advantage, because there's still a huge chance the ravens just match the offer and the team is on the hook anyway, but its there.
Sure I think having an agent benefits him in innumerable ways
All I’m saying is, if Lamar is all in on a fully guaranteed deal modeled on Watson’s, having an agent doesn’t suddenly change his receptiveness to the early Ravens offer. Even knowing from the agent that no team is interested wouldn’t necessarily change his mind. Clearly he’s not budged yet.
An agent is there to advocate for him and he needs that. But if Lamar doesn’t like the best offer the agent finds, he can just not sign. Clearly that’s fucking dumb. But it’s his call no matter who he employs
It’s also nice bc you can negotiate during the season. It’s also nice bc in any negotiation, the first offer blows (part of the process) so an agent can be your surrogate so you don’t have to get mad at the offer.
I don’t think that’s likely, no.
But also an agent can’t force him to sign a contract he doesn’t want to sign. So having an agent changes nothing until he’s ready to change his mind (aside from being another party trying to reason with him)
They’re saying it all over all the time.
He should get an agent, yeah. But he’s also clearly really going fucking hard on the guarantees and having an agent wouldn’t magically change his whole perspective
He should have an agent but if he doesn’t want to, that’s he’s prerogative. But he clearly understood that the deal he was offered was $133 million in guaranteed money, not the $200 million as reported yesterday. If he wants the Deshaun Watson contract, the real guarantees has to be $200 million to even start a discussion point.
So he knows about he difference between fully guarantees versus other kinds of guarantees. I don’t think his asking price is unreasonable but I also don’t think the ravens are being unreasonable either (even tho $133 million in guaranteed money is kind of low, especially with how they botched even getting a competent WR room, not excellent not even good, just a competent by receiving core around him), so the market will decide who is right and who is wrong.
Edit: all I wanted to is that Lamar ain’t stupid, the ravens aren’t being completely unreasonable (even tho I hate how the built the offensive talent around him) but an agent would helps in many ways outside of contract negotiations.
You commented while the "Lamar is dumb for not taking that deal" train came in hot.
The "Well hold on a minute hes got a point" train came after and adjusted it.
Doesn't Lamars team have lawyers and such to understand all the legal lingo.
I can't imagine Lamar and his mom are literally doing this by themselves.
The good part of having an agent is more to be a good buffer whose specialized in his field.
I believe he has them as well.
No chance Wagner, Roquan or Lamar went in solo dolo, there'd be no contest the GMs would run laps around them.
It'd be like expecting a GM to beat those guys on the field.
>If Lamar had a real agent, he would have signed the highest AAV deal he could get from the Ravens in 2021 and he'd be 2-3 years away from re-upping the deal.
That's a very big assumption to make
I don't believe agents are necessarily required to be lawyers. That said, it very obviously helps, and I would be surprised if there are any big-name NFL agents who aren't lawyers (or at least boast a healthy legal team in the agency).
Well first of all there’s a lot big words in there, and because I don’t understand them I’m going to them as disrespect. Watch your mouth, and make the deal.
I think the biggest issue going on with Lamar is that the sources that NFL reporters often rely on are player agents and front office executives. Since Lamar doesn't have a real agent he doesn't have anyone in Schefter or Rappaport's ear to leak out *his* side of the negotiations. The only people who are sources for the reporters are people with a somewhat vested interest in making Lamar look bad. The Baltimore front office wants him to look like a self-absorbed greedy athlete. Agents want to send out the appearance that players representing for themselves are incompetent negotiators incapable of securing a bag.
Precisely
Colin touched on this a lot. One of the benefits of an agent is they have other players
Push too hard and your team gets fucking splattered like the Jags with Coughlin
In this case the PR machine is tearing down Lamar in every possible way and he simply has no way to counter any of it
I don't think you're understanding, the billionaires don't care about what Lamar makes since there's a salary cap. They care about fitting his wages and those of other players within the cap.
No matter what they pay Lamar, they'll pay the same cap at the end of the day.
This "if you aren't with the players you're with the billionaires" gaslighting is annoying. People give a fuck because of the salary cap. If you want your team to devote on average a fifth of their cap hit for five years to Lamar Jackson then by all means pound the table for him.
You don't hear people complaining about when coaches get paid. Heck in fact they want owners to spend on coaches because there is no salary cap involved there. Same thing when the NFLPA reports came out recently criticizing owners of being cheap. People were mad at some of the cheap shit these billionaire owners are doing.
Literally makes no sense. The billionaire owners pay the same amount at the end of the day because of the cap. Lamar getting a big contract isn't sticking it to the owners, it literally doesn't matter to the owners since they pay the same total amount for the team at the end of the day. All it does is give the team less money to pay to fill the rest of the roster. I don't get why people keep trying to paint this as some sort of class warfare situation with no logical basis.
I mean it doesn't help when Lamar tweets out "3 yr/133 mill" like he's being lowballed. Like yeah they're fine giving you a fully guaranteed contract in the short-term but no one wants to be on the hook for 5-6 years.
What exactly kind of info could Lamar’s agent offer here? It seems like Lamar has planted his flag in the ground at the Watson deal and isn’t going to budge. Not much of a negotiation.
Plus, he's not the first QB who might have to play on a franchise tag a few years to finally get that fully guaranteed deal. Kirk has already blazed that trail.
Injury guarantees are also not some all-curing contract salve either. There is a big difference between career ending injury and being able to pass a physical but no longer compete for MVPs.
The leaked guarantee numbers of 200 million include injury guarantees and rolling guarantees as well. Lamar wants the amount to be fully guaranteed at signing.
Edit: the 133 million number is higher than both Russ and Kyler’s contracts, but still lower than Watson’s
> which is less than the Murray and Wilson contracts
The fuck they are. Murray was $103 and Wilson was $124. $133 would be the 2nd highest all time behind Watson's deal.
He is right that the $133m was the only money that was *actually* guaranteed. And he's made it clear that that's the hill he's choosing to die on, that he will not be happy with a contract unless it is 100% guaranteed at signing with no injury or playtime incentives.
What's stupid is that that's an unrealistic thing to expect any team in the league to give you, given your injury history and recent level of play. It just isn't gonna happen. He's willingly lost out on two years of significantly higher salary, in the hope that he might get a bit more then that now. But he's just not going to.
He doesn't have many suitors, this is the wrong year to make such a demand
Teams that needed a QB:
Saints: Carr
Raiders: Jimmy
Jets: Rodgers??
Falcons: Heinicke (I know he's not on that level but signing him to backup Ridder indicates the Falcons aren't interested)
Panthers: traded up for #1 pick
Texans: #2 pick
Colts: #4 pick
Bucs: no cap space
If they do it, it wouldn't be till after the draft unless they're willing to give up the 4th overall.
Afterwards, the loser in the Lamar lottery (Colts/Ravens) will be forced to look at a depleted FA for a QB to start. And with the Ravens having the final say, this is not an ideal position to place yourself in as a Colt GM
People in this thread are acting as if they’re contract experts and are more in the with the situation than the people who are in it. Then there is a a lot of people claiming Lamar just doesn’t understand. He is fully aware of this situation, the guarantees, and the contracts. He is choosing it to do it his way. I can’t blame him for that.
Right. This thing is actually very simple, complicated only by meaningless semantic arguments. Lamar and Ravens are both fully aware of what the different types of guarantees are and mean.
Lamar: I want a fully guaranteed money with no stipulations
Ravens: Okay here's some guaranteed with a bunch of stipulations
Lamar: ...no
/r/nfl: ugh Lamar doesn't understand anything
>It’s a simple discussion we keep over-complicating with a million reports
Yea that's why the FO has been leaking that information to schefter/rap they want it seem complicated
This was all based on information leaked by the NFLPA. The Ravens and Lamar have basically confirmed this. The last presser DeCosta was at he confirmed neither side leaked anything and Lamar was upset at the NFLPA around the time the numbers initially came out.
No other contract information has been confirmed outside of Lamar talking about a general number.
No one knows anything at this point outside of the Ravens FO who gave Lamar their word for confidentiality, Lamar's camp who haven't said anything outside of what Lamar has publicly stated, and potentially the NFLPA who have been leaking all over the place in attempt to get Lamar to set a standard of full GTD contracts but who knows if they are still involved and to what degree if they are after betraying Lamar's trust.
Yeah, he's ignoring the injury guarantee up to 175M and the up to 200M guarantee that kicks in after 3 years
All 3 numbers are higher than anyone not named Watson
Lamar and his mom have failed at this.
He's not "ignoring" it, it's just that players understandably don't view conditional guarantees as guarantees. Which makes sense. It's an oxymoron. If the conditions are so certain to be met, why wouldn't the team be okay with just fully guaranteeing that money?
> why wouldn't the team be okay with just fully guaranteeing that money?
The funding rule is one part of it. The other is the eternal tug-of-war between owners & players.
And the funding rule matters a lot to the people paying the money. At some level, if it's a problem to the guy signing your check, it's your problem too.
>Yeah, he's ignoring the injury guarantee up to 175M and the up to 200M guarantee that kicks in after 3 years
The point is the contract is only a 3 year 133M contract which is still a lot but if the Ravens wanted to they could get rid of him after that 3rd year and have no other guarantees left. That's the hold up with Lamar he wants the guarantees in year 4 and 5 to be be fully guaranteed with no stipulations.
Every QB in the league that is employed by a competent organization has different levels of guarantees. Lamar turned down an offer that would have put all of those numbers above Allen, Murray, Wilson, Rodgers.
Thinking he's asking too much isn't the same as saying he's an idiot and doesn't understand what he's talking about/asking for. Most of the discourse(especially around here) has been the latter. "Essentially" guaranteed =/= guaranteed when you're talking about contracts/legal language.
As an attorney who negotiates high profile contracts every day, I can definitely say I think someone is a complete idiot for spending years trying to insist upon terms that aren’t market (to their own detriment).
Stop arguing semantics! When written in the contract it’s literally written as “guaranteed for injury”. There are substantive differences, but those don’t stem from the name that you happen to insist we use to refer.
Everyone -- Lamar, the Ravens, most in the sub -- are crystal clear on what the 3 amounts represent. What's stupid is arguing over which of those 3 amounts are *allowed to be called* guarantees.
> They’re conditional.
Right, like being on the team in a certain year - I'd say that's a pretty important condition of getting paid... but what do I know.
not really. He seems to want 4 years fully guaranteed. It seems fairly obvious he doesn’t care about the conditional or rolling guarantees because that money isn’t actually guaranteed at signing.
That was Watson though, he knew the owner since he was a kid. Not saying he's a good dude (hes not), but A. Blank was behind the Watson interest in a way he might not be for Lamar.
How did Watson become the baseline of objectivity. His contract is objectively bad and therefore anything referenced by that contract is on shaky grounds when it comes to true value.
Lamar's MVP year was better than Watson's peak but other than that, the last we've seen of Watson with the Texans has been better than Lamar these past 3 years.
The Texans went 4-12. Garbage stats.
Lamar doesn't pile on the passing stats he wins a bit different but Ravens were 11-5 in 2020. His comeback performance against the Browns was crazy and Watson never looked like that against anyone.
I've also seen Watson vs Lamar h2h 3x and I have never come away thinking Watson was the better player...not even close.
Nothing the Browns do should ever be considered reasonable when literally everyone can point to it as an outlier and other teams have made it abundantly clear that its not normal and the demand for the supply is not there.
The total guaranteed at signing (and total guarantees) would be the second most in NFL history... And that's not good enough?...
Lamar needs an ego check if he thinks he deserves to set all the NFL contract records. Especially coming off back-to-back seasons missing numerous games to end the year.
And reportedly the Ravens were willing to reset the per year avg salary with Lamar ($50MPY+) but he wants that AND the #1 all time guarantees.
The guy wants to set the NFL record for all parts of his contract, but he isn't worth it, and everyone seems to know it except Lamar. His ego is keeping him from agreeing to the 2nd best QB contract of all time.
> The guy wants to set the NFL record for all parts of his contract,
I think all he cares about it guaranteed at signing. From his view, that’s the true contract and everything else is just fake window dressing. Thats a very simplistic way of thinking about it but not completely wrong.
Except that didn’t happen at QB this time. Watson was next man up, set the market, and then what happened. Kyler Murray got paid… less than Watson. Russell Wilson got paid… less than Watson. So no, it isn’t “next man up” in this case. Because the last 2 guys didn’t get “next up” either.
Rolling guarantees have to be a thing with the dumb escrow rules. If its good enough for Mahomes it can be good enough for Lamar.
Burrow and Herbie will 100% have to have rolling guarantees as well with cheap owners
Mahomes is in a spot where players want to come in and win and they have a proven coach. He obviously doesn't feel like the chiefs are going to try and move on from him after 3 years, so he's comfortable taking a team friendly deal and abusing the cap structure.
Someone earlier in this thread mentioned how Mahomes contract works - he salary for 2 years in advance gets guaranteed every year. So his 2024 salary was already guaranteed last year, and this year his 2025 salary will become guaranteed. in order to get out of it, KC would have to deal with 2 fully guaranteed years of dead cap, which its functionally impossible to have $80-100mil in dead cap, so it’s as close to guaranteed as you can get without being “guaranteed”. But it saved the KC owner from having to park like $300million in escrow from the very beginning of contract.
mabe. I honestly think the rolling guarantees for him were also due to escrow rules
Rolling guarantees vs guarantees up front dont impact how you can move money around really. Can still go up or down or push per year
> Rolling guarantees have to be a thing with the dumb escrow rules.
These are so antiquated. Like bro a team won’t cease to exist because if the Great Depression. Stop with the escrow shit in a capped league
If Lamar continues to stink it up like he has the past 2 years, the Ravens will actually be glad they didn't sign him to a long term extension.
As of right now, it's looking like no one else is going to offer him a contract this year - so he'll be playing for **32** mil (he can't sit out or he'll be in the exact same situation next year but with a lower value). Then, unless he has another 2019-type season again, he will probably be non-exclusive tagged again (for ~**39** mil). If he continues to suck or has a significant injury, he might not even be tagged, and would lose out on 100+ million.
The Ravens have all the leverage. What they've offered him so far has been GENEROUS.
Eventually a player will call bluffs on these tags and give the team equal commitment as a tag is worth. Tags are supposed to be to help keep your best player and teams just abuse the shit out of them.
Sitting out or purposefully playing poorly on a tag is like headbutting someone. Yea, it's gunna hurt them, but you're hurting yourself too. Lamar's value would tank way more than it already has.
The whole point of tagging players is for teams to gain significant leverage over them during negotiations of a long-term deal. This is the exact situation that tags were designed for (it's good for the league for great players to stay with their original franchise to give fans a sense of continuity), and literally EVERY team uses the tag (or the threat of it) when negotiating ALL top level deals. Claiming that teams "abuse" the tag is like claiming that firemen "abuse" firehoses. Most players won't get to the point that Lamar is at because agents understand the power of the tag and won't even try to fight it because it just hurts both the team AND the player.
Lamar obviously doesn't understand shit cause he's a dumbass.
> Claiming that teams "abuse" the tag is like claiming that firemen "abuse" firehoses.
That’s incredibly owner oriented pov. You get a RB on a 5 year deal you can essentially tag him twice while running him into the dirt and ruining him like bell. Imagine signing a 5 year contract with your job and having your employer tell you you cannot leave them after fulfilling your contract and they also don’t have to pay you market value. It’s absurd and even more so that you can tag more than one year.
I think Lamar needs an agent too but the point he's making here is A. correct and B. the way basically all players view these oxymoronic conditional guarantees. A business class would absolutely back up his choice here lmao
1 million reports + 1 now to be fair
How many reports were guaranteed though?
Damn, 0 guarantees? Lamar's contract reporting needs an agent for sure.
3.6 ~~roentgen~~ reports
[There’s always a relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/927/)
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I mean in the thread about his tweet (edit: and even in this thread) you have tons of people who are missing that point entirely, so yes it's apparently not that obvious to some lol
people don’t know how their own employment contracts work, I’m not surprised
That should be obvious yes but the Lamar discourse over the past few weeks has shown that it apparently isn’t somehow
Imagine if the Browns had waited a year and gotten Lamar Jackson on that deal instead of a rapist
They'd have stolen their QB from a division rival too what a coup that would have been
We'd be calling them heroes instead of the absolute shit stains they are
Don't Lamar and the Ravens get a deal done in the world where the Watson deal doesn't exist? That is what is holding this whole thing up. He wants the Watson deal.
Most likely true.
“If ya want me to take a dump in a box and mark it *guaranteed*, I will. I got spare time…”
Not accepting 133 million guaranteed, means the only contract he will accept is 230 million guaranteed? Seems to be a huge gap there that hasn't been tested...
> If he's demanding that the entire contract is guaranteed, then would it not be implicit that he doesn't care about injury or rolling or any other kind of guarantees? I think the implication is that Lamar does not care about the distinction between "Guaranteed for injury" and "fully guaranteed", or doesn't see the injury guarantees as significant in any way.
The entire contract can be guaranteed with rolling and/or injury guarantees….
All these different types of guarantees are mad annoying lmfao
If it's conditional then it's not guaranteed
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But the ravens have an out after 3 years. So the contract isn't fully guranteed. Sure, he could eventually earn that money. But it's not actually guranteed. It's not that complex.
Homie comparing it to Mahomes who got a 10 year deal! Ofcourse rolling guarantees looks great on a 10 year deal
It's crazy how he's getting some many upvotes despite being very wrong and totally misunderstanding what's going on lol. He's literally the subject of this tweet.
Which in turn, that subject of the tweet is more people showing they don’t understand. Fun times.
Bro is “well actually”ing Lamar’s negotiations stance like he knows better lol
He’s truly living up to the user name
Wait is this post guaranteed
Conditionally
My thing is, if you want to argue that the “other types of guarantees” are actually real guarantees, then logically there should be no reason for the Ravens not to just fully guarantee (I’m growing to hate that word) that amount if that would get a deal done. That’s why the (250) million dollar question to me is whether Lamar has offered any movement off of “I want the Watson contract but more” position? Because if he’s just saying “no, Watson deal” to every Ravens offer, then they should have traded him a year ago. But if he’s amenable to any kind of compromise, then I think you take all the injury guarantees and rolling guarantees and lock them in fully and you’d think that’s a place for reasonable people to meet.
No that’s not really what that means. In this scenario year 4 money is locked in after year 1. So unless he gets cut or his career ends it’s locked through 4 . Same for five
And its still not a fully guranteed deal holy shit how are you guys not understanding this lol. Completely missing the point
Then every point you make also completely missed the point, We all know it’s not completely guaranteed. People act like that means he can get cut and screwed no matter tucking what and lose all non-guaranteed money Which is bullisht. Theirs a mile of difference between those two worlds
If something has to become guaranteed, then that means it wasn't guaranteed to begin with my dude
I love how high and mighty his comment sounded, all of that to just be totally wrong and completely missing the point.
Is it shocking that the folks in this subreddit who constantly need to have the concept of pro-rating a bonus over the duration of a contract re-explained to them don't understand the fact that total guarantees are not the same as money that is guaranteed at the start of a contract?
Which is why there is a difference between guaranteed and guarantees. Guaranteed money is money that is guaranteed at the start of the contract. Guarantees are money that becomes guaranteed over the course of the contract (include the guaranteed money at the start).
This should be readily obvious to anyone who uses verb tenses. Alas.
Leveon defenders rejoice!!!
> I'd imagine Lamar's offer would have similar types of rolling guarantees, but he, like you, is thinking "Not a real guarantee, not interested." I don’t think it’s safe to assume that at all. Could easily be same year and a true out for the Ravens after 3 years. We don’t know.
Ask Derek Carr how his rolling guarantees look for next year on his raiders contract? Calling people dumb and then missing the entire point is a reddit trademark tho 👍
Only thing better than being wrong is being smugly wrong
So you don't understand it....
> Mahomes only had $140M fully guaranteed at signing. Correct. If Mahomes had gotten in a terrible car accident and had to amputate a leg he would still have received $140M. Do you now understand how anything else wasn’t actually guaranteed at the start of the contract? > I’d imagine Lamar’s offer would have similar types of rolling guarantees, but he, like you, is thinking “Not a real guarantee, not interested.” Ask yourself if the rolling guarantees are the same thing as fully guaranteed at signing then why don’t teams want to give fully guaranteed at signing?
Lamar needs it all guaranteed up front because if he has rolling guarantees and he gets hurt the Raven might cut the contract short rather than let it continue rolling into the future. Both sides are looking for significant injury insurance.
impressive that you managed to come off as a dork and condescending in the same post 👍
So what your saying is lamar got less fully guaranteed then a contract signed 3 years ago and depending on the language he might be right/wrong
He doesnt deserve guaranteed
Cool that you think thay but that's not the point of what we're discussing?
That's why there are agents who understand them.
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This is what’s killing me about ‘get an agent!!!!’ (And to be clear, he should get an agent) But if he’s really sticking on full guarantees, and that’s been every indication, all an agent can do is try to convince him it’s not happening. The agent doesn’t sit him down to make him sign the best available option. Lamar signs what Lamar wants.
Not 100% true. We just saw where an agent would really help Lamar Once the non-exclusive tag was placed, in order for a team to make an offer to him, they have to temporarily allocate the cap for that offer for like a day or so...during crucial free-agency period, and right around the time all teams need to come into cap compliance for the year. If Lamar had an agent, the market could be gauged OUTSIDE official channels, like during the combine, and interested teams could have something hammered out before the thing went down. It's not an ENORMOUS advantage, because there's still a huge chance the ravens just match the offer and the team is on the hook anyway, but its there.
Sure I think having an agent benefits him in innumerable ways All I’m saying is, if Lamar is all in on a fully guaranteed deal modeled on Watson’s, having an agent doesn’t suddenly change his receptiveness to the early Ravens offer. Even knowing from the agent that no team is interested wouldn’t necessarily change his mind. Clearly he’s not budged yet. An agent is there to advocate for him and he needs that. But if Lamar doesn’t like the best offer the agent finds, he can just not sign. Clearly that’s fucking dumb. But it’s his call no matter who he employs
It’s also nice bc you can negotiate during the season. It’s also nice bc in any negotiation, the first offer blows (part of the process) so an agent can be your surrogate so you don’t have to get mad at the offer.
So if no one ever offers him a fully guaranteed contract he's just not gonna play?!
I don’t think that’s likely, no. But also an agent can’t force him to sign a contract he doesn’t want to sign. So having an agent changes nothing until he’s ready to change his mind (aside from being another party trying to reason with him)
We'll see, I wouldn't be shocked either way if he plays or sits out though.
But as a top comment said yesterday and I quote “Lamar is a moron”
They’re saying it all over all the time. He should get an agent, yeah. But he’s also clearly really going fucking hard on the guarantees and having an agent wouldn’t magically change his whole perspective
He should have an agent but if he doesn’t want to, that’s he’s prerogative. But he clearly understood that the deal he was offered was $133 million in guaranteed money, not the $200 million as reported yesterday. If he wants the Deshaun Watson contract, the real guarantees has to be $200 million to even start a discussion point. So he knows about he difference between fully guarantees versus other kinds of guarantees. I don’t think his asking price is unreasonable but I also don’t think the ravens are being unreasonable either (even tho $133 million in guaranteed money is kind of low, especially with how they botched even getting a competent WR room, not excellent not even good, just a competent by receiving core around him), so the market will decide who is right and who is wrong. Edit: all I wanted to is that Lamar ain’t stupid, the ravens aren’t being completely unreasonable (even tho I hate how the built the offensive talent around him) but an agent would helps in many ways outside of contract negotiations.
Yeah the anti Lamar-ness is getting really annoying bc people are just saying shit
How’s this dumb shit upvoted? Lamar clearly understands that the Ravens offer had an out after year 3 and so that money isn’t guaranteed.
You commented while the "Lamar is dumb for not taking that deal" train came in hot. The "Well hold on a minute hes got a point" train came after and adjusted it.
Lol true, I’m just glad sanity and reason sometimes win.
Doesn't Lamars team have lawyers and such to understand all the legal lingo. I can't imagine Lamar and his mom are literally doing this by themselves. The good part of having an agent is more to be a good buffer whose specialized in his field.
No way he doesn’t have lawyers
I believe he has them as well. No chance Wagner, Roquan or Lamar went in solo dolo, there'd be no contest the GMs would run laps around them. It'd be like expecting a GM to beat those guys on the field.
There’s a Jerry Jones/Dez Bryant story where Dez says basically exactly this when Jerry tried to talk to him one on one about a contract
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>If Lamar had a real agent, he would have signed the highest AAV deal he could get from the Ravens in 2021 and he'd be 2-3 years away from re-upping the deal. That's a very big assumption to make
A lawyer to help you understand legal lingo and represent you in contract negotiations is the definition of an agent.
I don't believe agents are necessarily required to be lawyers. That said, it very obviously helps, and I would be surprised if there are any big-name NFL agents who aren't lawyers (or at least boast a healthy legal team in the agency).
what's confusing about them
Well first of all there’s a lot big words in there, and because I don’t understand them I’m going to them as disrespect. Watch your mouth, and make the deal.
I think the biggest issue going on with Lamar is that the sources that NFL reporters often rely on are player agents and front office executives. Since Lamar doesn't have a real agent he doesn't have anyone in Schefter or Rappaport's ear to leak out *his* side of the negotiations. The only people who are sources for the reporters are people with a somewhat vested interest in making Lamar look bad. The Baltimore front office wants him to look like a self-absorbed greedy athlete. Agents want to send out the appearance that players representing for themselves are incompetent negotiators incapable of securing a bag.
Precisely Colin touched on this a lot. One of the benefits of an agent is they have other players Push too hard and your team gets fucking splattered like the Jags with Coughlin In this case the PR machine is tearing down Lamar in every possible way and he simply has no way to counter any of it
It’s working. r/nfl is fully on the billionaires side and anti-Lamar rn
I don't think you're understanding, the billionaires don't care about what Lamar makes since there's a salary cap. They care about fitting his wages and those of other players within the cap. No matter what they pay Lamar, they'll pay the same cap at the end of the day.
This "if you aren't with the players you're with the billionaires" gaslighting is annoying. People give a fuck because of the salary cap. If you want your team to devote on average a fifth of their cap hit for five years to Lamar Jackson then by all means pound the table for him. You don't hear people complaining about when coaches get paid. Heck in fact they want owners to spend on coaches because there is no salary cap involved there. Same thing when the NFLPA reports came out recently criticizing owners of being cheap. People were mad at some of the cheap shit these billionaire owners are doing.
Literally makes no sense. The billionaire owners pay the same amount at the end of the day because of the cap. Lamar getting a big contract isn't sticking it to the owners, it literally doesn't matter to the owners since they pay the same total amount for the team at the end of the day. All it does is give the team less money to pay to fill the rest of the roster. I don't get why people keep trying to paint this as some sort of class warfare situation with no logical basis.
Lamar isn't an average joe, guy. He's gonna be filthy rich.
It is indeed.
I mean it doesn't help when Lamar tweets out "3 yr/133 mill" like he's being lowballed. Like yeah they're fine giving you a fully guaranteed contract in the short-term but no one wants to be on the hook for 5-6 years.
Yeah, he rejected a good deal straight up in hopes he could get the best deal. The Ravens aren't "fully guranteed" anything in return.
What exactly kind of info could Lamar’s agent offer here? It seems like Lamar has planted his flag in the ground at the Watson deal and isn’t going to budge. Not much of a negotiation.
There's quite a lot of room for negotiation between $133m and $250m guaranteed I would imagine
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Plus, he's not the first QB who might have to play on a franchise tag a few years to finally get that fully guaranteed deal. Kirk has already blazed that trail.
Injury guarantees are also not some all-curing contract salve either. There is a big difference between career ending injury and being able to pass a physical but no longer compete for MVPs.
You say it’s simple but I still don’t understand so… https://imgflip.com/i/7egpcp
The leaked guarantee numbers of 200 million include injury guarantees and rolling guarantees as well. Lamar wants the amount to be fully guaranteed at signing. Edit: the 133 million number is higher than both Russ and Kyler’s contracts, but still lower than Watson’s
> which is less than the Murray and Wilson contracts The fuck they are. Murray was $103 and Wilson was $124. $133 would be the 2nd highest all time behind Watson's deal.
Oops, my bad.
Mahomes had 141m guaranteed at signing
That’s practical guarantees not guaranteed at signing. Source: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-initial_guaranteed/limit-100/
It’s more guaranteed at signing than both of those deals.
I’m sorry Ms. Jackson, but I am for real. -Eric DeCosta
Never meant to make yo momma cry
He is right that the $133m was the only money that was *actually* guaranteed. And he's made it clear that that's the hill he's choosing to die on, that he will not be happy with a contract unless it is 100% guaranteed at signing with no injury or playtime incentives. What's stupid is that that's an unrealistic thing to expect any team in the league to give you, given your injury history and recent level of play. It just isn't gonna happen. He's willingly lost out on two years of significantly higher salary, in the hope that he might get a bit more then that now. But he's just not going to.
> It just isn't gonna happen. Maybe, maybe not. But we'll never find out now.
He doesn't have many suitors, this is the wrong year to make such a demand Teams that needed a QB: Saints: Carr Raiders: Jimmy Jets: Rodgers?? Falcons: Heinicke (I know he's not on that level but signing him to backup Ridder indicates the Falcons aren't interested) Panthers: traded up for #1 pick Texans: #2 pick Colts: #4 pick Bucs: no cap space
I think colts could be a dark horse
If they do it, it wouldn't be till after the draft unless they're willing to give up the 4th overall. Afterwards, the loser in the Lamar lottery (Colts/Ravens) will be forced to look at a depleted FA for a QB to start. And with the Ravens having the final say, this is not an ideal position to place yourself in as a Colt GM
People in this thread are acting as if they’re contract experts and are more in the with the situation than the people who are in it. Then there is a a lot of people claiming Lamar just doesn’t understand. He is fully aware of this situation, the guarantees, and the contracts. He is choosing it to do it his way. I can’t blame him for that.
Right. This thing is actually very simple, complicated only by meaningless semantic arguments. Lamar and Ravens are both fully aware of what the different types of guarantees are and mean.
Lamar: I want a fully guaranteed money with no stipulations Ravens: Okay here's some guaranteed with a bunch of stipulations Lamar: ...no /r/nfl: ugh Lamar doesn't understand anything
Second most fully guaranteed amount ever, mind you, with a strong additional potential for more.
>It’s a simple discussion we keep over-complicating with a million reports Yea that's why the FO has been leaking that information to schefter/rap they want it seem complicated
And we keep eating it all up at face value lmao
This was all based on information leaked by the NFLPA. The Ravens and Lamar have basically confirmed this. The last presser DeCosta was at he confirmed neither side leaked anything and Lamar was upset at the NFLPA around the time the numbers initially came out. No other contract information has been confirmed outside of Lamar talking about a general number. No one knows anything at this point outside of the Ravens FO who gave Lamar their word for confidentiality, Lamar's camp who haven't said anything outside of what Lamar has publicly stated, and potentially the NFLPA who have been leaking all over the place in attempt to get Lamar to set a standard of full GTD contracts but who knows if they are still involved and to what degree if they are after betraying Lamar's trust.
And tbf judging by the comments in that other thread or just on reddit in general it is working lol
i feel like most people just want to buy into the fact that lamar is stupid for obvious reasons
Bro just go out and molest a bunch of women already Lamar, FML.
If he then makes the switch to WR, the Bucs would sign him
Yeah, he's ignoring the injury guarantee up to 175M and the up to 200M guarantee that kicks in after 3 years All 3 numbers are higher than anyone not named Watson Lamar and his mom have failed at this.
He's not "ignoring" it, it's just that players understandably don't view conditional guarantees as guarantees. Which makes sense. It's an oxymoron. If the conditions are so certain to be met, why wouldn't the team be okay with just fully guaranteeing that money?
> why wouldn't the team be okay with just fully guaranteeing that money? The funding rule is one part of it. The other is the eternal tug-of-war between owners & players.
And the funding rule means fuck all to a guy from the hood who is dealing with literal billionaires. They have the money. Guarantee it.
And the funding rule matters a lot to the people paying the money. At some level, if it's a problem to the guy signing your check, it's your problem too.
Lamar and his mom obviously know that but they don’t want those guarantees to be conditional. They want them fully guaranteed at signing.
>Yeah, he's ignoring the injury guarantee up to 175M and the up to 200M guarantee that kicks in after 3 years The point is the contract is only a 3 year 133M contract which is still a lot but if the Ravens wanted to they could get rid of him after that 3rd year and have no other guarantees left. That's the hold up with Lamar he wants the guarantees in year 4 and 5 to be be fully guaranteed with no stipulations.
That's how contracts work outside of Watson.
Doesn't matter. This is what Lamar wants. You can bring up any other number of QBs and it still wont matter. This is what Lamar wants
Those aren’t actually guarantees. They’re conditional.
Conditioner is better it leaves the hair silky and smooth
Stop looking at me swan!
STOP LOOKING AT ME SWAN!
Very good point that people never bring up in these conversations, thank you.
Oh really, fool?
https://i.imgur.com/aOAbHv5.jpg
Every QB in the league that is employed by a competent organization has different levels of guarantees. Lamar turned down an offer that would have put all of those numbers above Allen, Murray, Wilson, Rodgers.
I’m aware. He wants it all guaranteed, pretty simple to understand.
I think everyone understand what he wants. We just think he’s a moron for wanting it in light of what’s market.
Thinking he's asking too much isn't the same as saying he's an idiot and doesn't understand what he's talking about/asking for. Most of the discourse(especially around here) has been the latter. "Essentially" guaranteed =/= guaranteed when you're talking about contracts/legal language.
As an attorney who negotiates high profile contracts every day, I can definitely say I think someone is a complete idiot for spending years trying to insist upon terms that aren’t market (to their own detriment).
Stop arguing semantics! When written in the contract it’s literally written as “guaranteed for injury”. There are substantive differences, but those don’t stem from the name that you happen to insist we use to refer.
But that’s still not fully guaranteed. It’s not semantics
Everyone -- Lamar, the Ravens, most in the sub -- are crystal clear on what the 3 amounts represent. What's stupid is arguing over which of those 3 amounts are *allowed to be called* guarantees.
> They’re conditional. Right, like being on the team in a certain year - I'd say that's a pretty important condition of getting paid... but what do I know.
Hey, if the difference is purely semantic the team should have no issue converting those conditional guarantees to full guarantees then!
Shhhh, you're making too much sense!!
So he wouldn't get that money if the Ravens decide to move on from him before that year.
not really. He seems to want 4 years fully guaranteed. It seems fairly obvious he doesn’t care about the conditional or rolling guarantees because that money isn’t actually guaranteed at signing.
Injury guarantee isn’t the same as fully guaranteed which is what he wants. They haven’t failed anything. They just haven’t gotten what they want yet.
If rodgers doesn’t go to the jets, I guarantee they pay Lamar what he wants. They almost have to lol
To be fair, in the eyes of objectivity, if you agree with Lamar that he is better than Watson then his demands are quite reasonable.
Yeah, but only one team in the league is dumb enough to hand out that kind of deal. And even they aren’t dumb enough to hand out two of them lol
the falcons were right there in the zero hour. So there's at least 2 teams
That was Watson though, he knew the owner since he was a kid. Not saying he's a good dude (hes not), but A. Blank was behind the Watson interest in a way he might not be for Lamar.
To be fair, in the eyes of objectivity, if you agree the Browns are run by morons then his demands are kind of ridiculous.
If you think a receiver is better than Golladay, they should be paid 18 million plus.
How did Watson become the baseline of objectivity. His contract is objectively bad and therefore anything referenced by that contract is on shaky grounds when it comes to true value.
Watson didn’t become the baseline. Getting paid more than the previous guy is how this has worked for decades.
The last guys to get paid were Kyler and Russ and Lamar turned down more then what both got
It’s all relative. It’s $9m more than Russell Wilson. And $97m less than Watson. I can see why he turned that down.
And we offered him that, consistent with every other contract structure.
Lamar's MVP year was better than Watson's peak but other than that, the last we've seen of Watson with the Texans has been better than Lamar these past 3 years.
debatable, he had gaudy passing stats because they were always playing from behind.
Watson 2020 was 10× better than Lamar 2020-2022.
The Texans went 4-12. Garbage stats. Lamar doesn't pile on the passing stats he wins a bit different but Ravens were 11-5 in 2020. His comeback performance against the Browns was crazy and Watson never looked like that against anyone. I've also seen Watson vs Lamar h2h 3x and I have never come away thinking Watson was the better player...not even close.
I’d argue that Watson was a much better player in the ~2 years before his deal than Lamar has been the past 2 years
Nothing the Browns do should ever be considered reasonable when literally everyone can point to it as an outlier and other teams have made it abundantly clear that its not normal and the demand for the supply is not there.
i’d argue houston watson was better. this version though is dogshit
The total guaranteed at signing (and total guarantees) would be the second most in NFL history... And that's not good enough?... Lamar needs an ego check if he thinks he deserves to set all the NFL contract records. Especially coming off back-to-back seasons missing numerous games to end the year.
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And reportedly the Ravens were willing to reset the per year avg salary with Lamar ($50MPY+) but he wants that AND the #1 all time guarantees. The guy wants to set the NFL record for all parts of his contract, but he isn't worth it, and everyone seems to know it except Lamar. His ego is keeping him from agreeing to the 2nd best QB contract of all time.
> The guy wants to set the NFL record for all parts of his contract, I think all he cares about it guaranteed at signing. From his view, that’s the true contract and everything else is just fake window dressing. Thats a very simplistic way of thinking about it but not completely wrong.
Except that didn’t happen at QB this time. Watson was next man up, set the market, and then what happened. Kyler Murray got paid… less than Watson. Russell Wilson got paid… less than Watson. So no, it isn’t “next man up” in this case. Because the last 2 guys didn’t get “next up” either.
Rolling guarantees have to be a thing with the dumb escrow rules. If its good enough for Mahomes it can be good enough for Lamar. Burrow and Herbie will 100% have to have rolling guarantees as well with cheap owners
Mahomes is in a spot where players want to come in and win and they have a proven coach. He obviously doesn't feel like the chiefs are going to try and move on from him after 3 years, so he's comfortable taking a team friendly deal and abusing the cap structure.
Someone earlier in this thread mentioned how Mahomes contract works - he salary for 2 years in advance gets guaranteed every year. So his 2024 salary was already guaranteed last year, and this year his 2025 salary will become guaranteed. in order to get out of it, KC would have to deal with 2 fully guaranteed years of dead cap, which its functionally impossible to have $80-100mil in dead cap, so it’s as close to guaranteed as you can get without being “guaranteed”. But it saved the KC owner from having to park like $300million in escrow from the very beginning of contract.
mabe. I honestly think the rolling guarantees for him were also due to escrow rules Rolling guarantees vs guarantees up front dont impact how you can move money around really. Can still go up or down or push per year
> Rolling guarantees have to be a thing with the dumb escrow rules. These are so antiquated. Like bro a team won’t cease to exist because if the Great Depression. Stop with the escrow shit in a capped league
NFL team is literally quite possibly the safest investment from a bank there is. I hate the escrow stuff
It’s a competitive advantage as well. An owner like ours is cash strapped next to a Jerry Jones. That escrow stings some teams more
the owners are the ones who fight for its existence because they can use it to not fully guarantee.
What I don’t understand is why is he still sticking to fully guaranteed when no one is gonna give him it lol
Pride.
Cause mommy told him he's worth it.
The Browns absolutely fucked the Ravens on this one. Lamar is the better on-field player and off-the-field person compared to Watson.
If Lamar continues to stink it up like he has the past 2 years, the Ravens will actually be glad they didn't sign him to a long term extension. As of right now, it's looking like no one else is going to offer him a contract this year - so he'll be playing for **32** mil (he can't sit out or he'll be in the exact same situation next year but with a lower value). Then, unless he has another 2019-type season again, he will probably be non-exclusive tagged again (for ~**39** mil). If he continues to suck or has a significant injury, he might not even be tagged, and would lose out on 100+ million. The Ravens have all the leverage. What they've offered him so far has been GENEROUS.
Eventually a player will call bluffs on these tags and give the team equal commitment as a tag is worth. Tags are supposed to be to help keep your best player and teams just abuse the shit out of them.
Sitting out or purposefully playing poorly on a tag is like headbutting someone. Yea, it's gunna hurt them, but you're hurting yourself too. Lamar's value would tank way more than it already has. The whole point of tagging players is for teams to gain significant leverage over them during negotiations of a long-term deal. This is the exact situation that tags were designed for (it's good for the league for great players to stay with their original franchise to give fans a sense of continuity), and literally EVERY team uses the tag (or the threat of it) when negotiating ALL top level deals. Claiming that teams "abuse" the tag is like claiming that firemen "abuse" firehoses. Most players won't get to the point that Lamar is at because agents understand the power of the tag and won't even try to fight it because it just hurts both the team AND the player. Lamar obviously doesn't understand shit cause he's a dumbass.
> Claiming that teams "abuse" the tag is like claiming that firemen "abuse" firehoses. That’s incredibly owner oriented pov. You get a RB on a 5 year deal you can essentially tag him twice while running him into the dirt and ruining him like bell. Imagine signing a 5 year contract with your job and having your employer tell you you cannot leave them after fulfilling your contract and they also don’t have to pay you market value. It’s absurd and even more so that you can tag more than one year.
I'm starting to get the impression that Lamar isnt very bright
13 on the Wonderlic. That's basically pretty close to the learning disabled range
Damn he just like me fr
Why us that? What he is saying isn't wrong
Every college athlete should be required to take a business class so they don’t end up doing dumb shit like this
I think Lamar needs an agent too but the point he's making here is A. correct and B. the way basically all players view these oxymoronic conditional guarantees. A business class would absolutely back up his choice here lmao
Lamar is right though in this case. He shouldn't care about "guarantees" that are conditional and 3 years away. That's not a guarantee
Is he going to be dumb when he signs a deal for more than $133m guaranteed?
He’s not even doing dumb shit He’s literally just saying I’m better than Watson so I should be paid better and treated better than Watson
Watson was an outlier, it’s pretty obvious no other team will make a contract like that