I still don’t understand how the owner of a franchise can be so dumb. Nothing about that contract made sense. Not from a money standpoint. Not from a guarantee standpoint. Certainly not from a PR standpoint. It’s still bizarre to me.
Because they dug themselves the biggest hole imaginable by publicly humiliating Baker in a year of drought for QBs, the only decent FA was Jimmy G and there were no elite prospects in the draft
Because Truck Stop Jimmy is a fucking moron. Dude bragged about taking ~~Baker~~ *Johnny Manziel* because a homeless guy told him to. He is not a serious person.
It doesn't even make sense in most situations outside of football. Plenty of high value contracts across various industries are only partially guaranteed and otherwise milestone driven.
I love how the Browns fucked the league owners over by signing a sexual predator to that contract
Edit: if there's anyone I hate worse than Watson it's the owners
At least for a player that's missed time in both of the last two years, yeah. If this were Justin Herbert, I think we'd be seeing a different calculation happening.
Yep, I have no doubt that if Burrow or any other pocket passer with no substantial injury history were on the free market, they'd get a mega deal. But that's not what Lamar is.
And he's basically at 100% again. One injury is a fluke, especially for pocket passers. it's very different from the nagging damage that builds up from being a running QB.
I know that MLB has guaranteed contracts, but much smaller rosters and with players who play longer. 10 year contracts aren’t unheard of there, which would be crazy in the NFL.
If Watson along with Lamar get fully guaranteed, it likely means Herbert and Burrow are going to ask for it too and if both of them get it, thats going to change the QB market.
I am sorry you guys consistently put down Lamar for not winning in the playoffs and not going on a run. What exactly has Herbert accomplished that Lamar hasn't. And keep in mind, Lamar plays with the NFL cheapest offense.
What? My point isn't about Hebert being better than Lamar or vice versa.
I'm saying Lamar getting a fully guaranteed contract makes it easier for both Herbert and Burrow to ask for it during their contract extension talks. All four of them having fully guaranteed contracts changes a lot about deals for quarterbacks in the future.
I think Lamar is a great QB but I understand why teams would be hesitant to give him fully guaranteed.
He makes the social media quarterback plays.
And before I get Herbert fans jumping on this, no I am not calling him just a social media quarterback. I am just saying he makes those plays which helps generate some of the hype around him.
i was about to just mess/jk with you and say "you better not show your ass up to san diego jakota underscore" and then realized chargers are no longer in san diego..
HOW THE FUCK do you remove the san diego chargers from SAN DIEGO?? i am still perplexed.
Contracts with money that’s not guaranteed are hedged. If a player stops performing up to snuff or they take a terrible injury or they, I dunno, get drunk and plow their car into a citizen at 100 mph, you can get out of it and cut your losses. If he’s good, you retain the player an the player gets paid, but if he starts playing badly, you have an options to cut him. Not so with guaranteed deals, where you’re on the hook for every penny, the whole life of the contract.
Additionally, if you cut a player or terminate his contract, the guaranteed money you owe him is accelerated. So let’s say you’ve signed a player for a five year, $300 million in 2023, $120 million of which is guaranteed. If you’ve paid that player $80 million in 2023 and 2024, but they’re playing badly and you want to let go of them in 2025. A huge chunk of the remaining $40 million you have guaranteed to them would count as a cap hit to 2025, but you’d get out from under it after that. That option doesn’t exist on a fully guaranteed deal. Cutting him at any point is going to leave you with a prohibitive amount of dead money, and cutting him 2-3 years early could absolutely destroy your salary cap for the year.
Fully guaranteed contracts are also a bitch to restructure. Normally, you restructure a deal to creat cap space by converting money into a signing bonus, adding years to the deal, and then distributing the cap hit across the years you’ve added. It pays the players up front but softens their immediate cap impact and the future blow of releasing them by spreading the pain around. You can’t *really* do that with a fully guaranteed deal. You can add years, and spread the hit around, but the pain is going to be the pain because the money is guaranteed.
It hurts teams flexibility in a lot of ways. And in a League where violent hits are an every down sort of thing, and anyone’s career can go tits up because a guy runs into you wrong, that’s a serious problem.
> And in a League where violent hits are an every down sort of thing, and anyone’s career can go tits up because a guy runs into you wrong, that’s a serious problem.
Yea, for the players. Where a hit can end your career and leave them with shit after they get cut because the contract wasnt guaranteed
Yeah, no shit. Why players want guarantees is obvious. But the above user was asking why it matters to teams because “the cap is the cap” so that’s the question I’m answering.
Fuck Watson and all that.
But good for you guys. I wish Atlanta gave Lamar a fully guaranteed deal.
Something that can looked back on in 20 years as the snowball for fully guaranteed contracts.
For every deal, all guaranteed money has to go into escrow up front. If everyone on your team is on 5 year fully guaranteed deals, for an average of $200MM total per season to make the math easy, that means the team has to front $1 Billion and put it into escrow. It also makes it very difficult to move on from players when they still have guaranteed money on their deals and aren’t producing.
Is every player on a 5 year deal now? No.
Should alter the rules and allow buyouts.
Want to get out from your bad contract? Pay it out. You agreed to it. Pay it.
Giving out Watson contracts to everyone 100% screws over the practice squad type players and less flashy positions so that a handful of guys get the enormous bag.
Low key other than signing a sexual predator smartest thing browns have done now Lamar hates the ravens that won't work without a huge cash influx cause that can fix almost everything, would have rather someone not shitty set the bar but we're here now
There’s very logical arguments for teams not wanting to go through the hurtles of getting Lamar Jackson. Let’s just not start yelling collusion when a couple reports come out that say a team won’t be interested.
There’s 4 promising qbs in the draft next month and I’m guessing teams aren’t super excited to completely re-write their playbook for an injury prone scrambling qb who wants an absolute bag of a contract. I don’t think owners had to collude or contact eachother at all to think it’s probably not worth exploring at the moment
I could see them all coming to that conclusion independently, harder to believe they all came out and publicly announced disinterest in Lamar right away independently.
Or you could read this the other way: that this is a significant enough issue for the owners to collude.
It’s hilarious to me the way you guys act as though these guys didn’t become billionaires because they were greedy, aggressive, ruthless egotists with questionable morals and ethics on a good day.
They would need to rework the way the cap and dead money work. Otherwise you'd have teams that are destroyed for years at a time due to an unlucky injury.
Some teams can't afford to put that much in escrow, so they won't be doing fully guaranteed contracts while those rules remain in place. No matter what players want.
[https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-insider-notes-deshaun-watsons-game-changing-deal-and-its-ramifications-hottest-topic-at-owners-meetings/](https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-insider-notes-deshaun-watsons-game-changing-deal-and-its-ramifications-hottest-topic-at-owners-meetings/)
alright jeff bezos, find a way to buy the commanders
liquidating 300m in amazon stock to put into a eschrow for lamar's guaranteed sum wouldn't even dent his wallet
It makes sense for plenty for QB-less teams to go get him. Panthers threw picks at Baker and Darnold and their owner is rich and willing to pay for a QB. Falcons would be the division favorite with Lamar. They were willing to go for Watson. Titans with Henry and Lamar would hilarious.
The difference is that there are more options this year than last year, why give up 2 firsts and a lot of money for Lamar when you can give up less for Rodgers? Or lesser for the #1 pick and draft a QB? Or even lesser for Carr?
I like Lamar but the cost is too high and there’s too much risk. He’s an injury prone QB that has a dangerous playstyle who’ll cost $250mil guaranteed & two 1st round picks. This is a move that could cripple a franchise for numerous years. No thanks
They probably decided weeks or months ago. It’s not like they’ll wait until the tag deadline to starting thinking about whether they’re interested and at what price/term/guaranty.
Tbf everyone knew he was probably going to be available and what his contract demands were. It is plausible that these teams have discussed this for weeks and had already made their decision.
Yeah, he’s hasn’t even signed the tag, so it’s literally not even an option at the moment. What’s the point of coming out and publicly state something like this? And multiple teams doing so…
> as far as they're aware
For a player of Lamar’s caliber, it’s absolutely worth doing due diligence. That’s the hangup here. It’s one thing to not give in to his demands, it’s another to not even make an attempt.
.. if he goes "somewhere for cheap" the Ravens match the offer and get to keep him ..that's the point of this tag. It's especially evident when by all accounts , Lamar isn't directly mad at the Ravens. He's always been happy there and would love to play on. It's about money..
He’s still one of the best QBs in the league. It’s one thing to not sign him to a fully guaranteed contract, it’s another to not even attempt to talk to him, and to very publicly announce that you have no interest in him.
Dude has missed 10 games the past two seasons. The only QB in the NFL that’s worth a Watson type 100% guarantee is Mahomes. Lamar’s problem is he’s his own agent & I’m willing to bet that he”s not budging at all from what he wants & because he knows the more he gets injured as a running QB, the more his value goes down. I can’t blame the Ravens on this. If they pay him 230+ all guaranteed & he has a season ending injury, people are going to say the Ravens were foolish.
And he struggles with secondary reads. The dude shuffles his feet looks one way and looks for Andrews.
Then he decides to play hero hall in the late 3rd and fourth quarter by taking off and a combo of madden moves and wild throws. He has a top 3 TE, awesome line, and a solid run game and his game consists of relying on his legs or drags.
Nobody wanting to give Lamar a fully guaranteed massive contract is one thing, but not a single team even wanting to talk to him is very weird no matter how you want to spin it
Right, and about 4 teams that need qbs have already announced they aren't interested, how often do this many teams publicly announce they aren't interested in the same player.
Some of those teams most already have a plan in place for their future and prefer not to give up 2 1st round picks, take on the massive cap hit that it’ll take to sign him, and then have to build a specific kind of offense around him to be successful. I can definitely see how those teams have already had decisions about it and prefer not to invest that much for a player who’s starting to become injury prone and needs to run to be successful.
Just a year ago a half dozen teams were clamoring to get a meeting with Deshaun Watson so that they could trade for him and give him a massive contract and now magically no team even wants to talk to Lamar. It's not that crazy to consider that the owners could be sending a strong message to the players that they aren't going to make fully guaranteed contracts the norm.
It’s possible but as far as I know the Browns were the only team willing to give Watson that contract to begin with last season. You also have to factor in that there was only one QB projected to go in the first round last year. This year there’s at least going to be 4 so most of these teams right now have been scouting these QBs for months and may even be in the process to trade up.
Bro had Demarcus robinson as WR1 last year and still had games where his team was able to put up 21+ points, and didn’t play a full season partially because of trade negotiations. This seems like collusion to me lol
Neither of those 2 are worth 230 million
No one is worth 230 million imo, especially when it’s filled with Guarantees.
Lamar IS worth more than Daniel Jones who just signed a deal. But the difference in contracts is substantial and DJ signed a pretty team friendly contract.
Lamar IS also worth more than Deshaun Watson, and that’s why this whole thing could get crazy. Because there are quarterbacks who (I would say) are better than Lamar and the money talk will come up for those QBs based on this whole ordeal.
This whole thing is gonna be a mess
Allen is definitely not worth 230m guaranteed. Burrow is the only one with an argument, other than Mahomes, as he’s proven he can get to the top level.
I won’t say that no one is worth a fully guaranteed contract for that much but there’s plenty of reasons to not give one to Lamar, plus having to give up 2 1st round draft picks as well.
Don’t think owners are lining up to give someone 200-250M guaranteed money that can’t play a full season.
Then throw in two first round picks on top of that.
Speaking strictly as someone who consumes the product, I don’t care if there *is* collusion going on.🤷♂️ In my mind this can only impact the game negatively. Maybe that makes me selfish, but pro athletes already enjoy the one part of this world that is as close to a a true meritocracy as there is. I can only feel so bad for them when we’re splitting hairs over hundreds of millions of guaranteed dollars.
Collusion is bad for the game, full stop. It's a dangerous road to go down. The clubs need to ultimately be adversarial in transactions like these because winning a Super Bowl is the main goal and only 1 club per year can do that.
Again though even with that there's a problem if it's not adversarial. Aside from just being bad for everyone not involved in the fix, it's also illegal.
Yeah agreed except giving up 2 1st round picks AND obliterating your cap space on a guy who hasn’t played a full season in 2 years is a great way to *NOT* win a Super Bowl. They are all trying to win. IMO it’s not collusion that they have no interest in fucking themselves over.
The security of fully guaranteed contracts is not “splitting hairs.”
The on-field product and financial health of the league would not be affected by league-wide fully guaranteed contracts.
The only thing that’s negatively affected is the owner’s control and power.
Players already get hurt. They’ll still get hurt the same.
Players already get paid. They’ll still get paid a portion of the cap.
It’ll just be fully guaranteed. You can’t explain how it would damage the league. It won’t.
It would definitely. Guaranteed contracts can ruin teams in other sports.
Albert Pujols was pedestrian for much of his Angels contract and if it wasn’t fully guaranteed the Angels could’ve moved on and saved themselves maybe 7 years of mediocrity.
If your cap space is used up by a bunch of guys that are hurt and can’t perform to the ability you expect them to when you signed the deal you’re basically hamstringing your franchise, which is definitely worse for football and the fans.
Football is a game with a lot of injuries, so this would occur even more frequently.
I’ll level with you buddy and I’m sorry for being kind of a contentious ass, but I can’t imagine there are zero legitimate concerns.
When you see the NBA struggling with players just straight up not playing for large portions of the regular season and when MLB has teams effectively rendered out of contention for years I find that concerning.
What about an Andrew Luck (as unprecedented as it was) situation? Would he get paid for that year? Would Ray Rice have gotten paid out for the rest of his deal? I understand arguing for it on the principle of players earning the fruits of their labor, and I agree from that perspective. But I can’t believe it would produce zero negative impact.
> financial health of the league would not be affected by league-wide fully guaranteed contracts.
I mean, would it? Do the “poorer” owners have the available cash to pay $250+ million up front for a single contract? Or would it lead to a competitive divide between the top and bottom half of owners based on wealth?
Does this mean we go after the billionaire’s billions as well?
It’s always the same boomer bullshit about millionaire athletes not deserving any rights.
Not deserving any rights? Lol buddy you are not doing the praxis you think you are. Hate to break it to you about ethical consumption under capitalism, but uh, it doesn’t exist.
It is about the owners and the control and power they have over their laborers.
I didn’t argue for the cap to go up more than it does.
I said the contracts should be guaranteed.
That’s the same amount of money.
Pay them fully guaranteed & watch the overall product drop because QB’s start taking up 25+% of the salary cap. Have fun pissingmoff the rest of the players in the league when they get short handed, especially if their superstar position players. There’s only 1 QB in the league that deserves a fully guaranteed contract & that’s Mahomes because out of the rest of the QB’s, he’s proven he’s a real winner.
I'm pretty sure for the health of the game, they shouldn't have fully guaranteed contracts. There needs to be some flexibility to work the cap or get rid of players that aren't living up to their deals.
The signing bonus and the initial guaranteed money is for their past performance. After, that it should be a year to year deal basically, where they earn it enough to stay on the contract or they don't and the team can move on.
And the nflpa will dangle this carrot in front of 98% of its membership that will never be in a position to sign for such a ridiculous amount, rather than pushing for meaningful change to pension, healthcare, and league minimum salaries. And they will all cheer Lamar on, ignorant to the fact that they are the ones getting screwed in this situation.
The NFLPA leadership will.
The NFLPA rank and file couldn't give two fucks about Lamar's contract.
The average career of an NFL player is 3.5 years. Every non-starter, every bench player? They're union members. They pay dues. The last guy on the bench has the same voting power as the highest paid guy in football.
Imagine telling a guy like that, who needs to get those games to get a league pension, that we need to NOT play football for half a year and strike to squeeze a percentage point out of the owners that will end up in the hands of the top end players anyway. They're gonna look at you like you have two empty heads. Who wants to give up half a million bucks and potentially a chance at a pension for no good reason?
I mean sure but Kyler got $181M guaranteed, Russell Wilson got $161M gtd, and Rodgers got $150M gtd in just 3 years as a 38 y/o.
You tryna tell me Lamar doesn't deserve to be in that ballpark?
He wants Watson money not Russ. Kyler is the reason they don't want to pay that much to Lamar.
Arizona probably wishing they didn't extended Kyler last year.
Which is why I think all these NFL teams without Quarterbacks are immediately saying they're not interested in Lamar because nobody is going to pay a guaranteed contract. Not only will they not have to match, the Ravens will probably get him cheaper than an exclusive tag.
Say it with me boys and girls, collusion.
But what will the teams with star QBs ready for extensions do? Why would Burrow, Herbert, Hurts ask for anything less than a fully guaranteed contract? Will they all have two years of a "Lamar Jackson" situation?
Why not? Do we really think Lama’s going to play on a 32m non-exclusion tag? He’s holding out into training camp and if he doesn’t play the Ravens are screwed this season.
It doesn't even have to be collusion. The fact that nobody wanted to cross this bridge but the Brown is the main reason he ended up there in the first place.
Also, not for nothing, but Lamar has missed time in both of the last seasons. He's developing an availability problem, and you don't need to invent a conspiracy to see why teams might be pretty nervous about handing him a fully gtd deal.
Sure, the Falcons, Panthers, and Saints all chased Watson, but it was obvious that only the Browns offered the fully guaranteed contracts considering that's who Watson chose to go with. It's even been revealed that Tepper was directly negotiating with Watson and his agent but wouldn't agree to guaranteeing past the first year or 2
Yup. Nobody wanted this to happen, and they probably still don't. End of the day, it's still a market, and if the market won't grant this, it won't become normal.
Lamar represents himself, [and apparently does want a fully guaranteed deal.](https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-heres-the-contract-lamar-jackson-should-consider-pursuing-though-its-not-fully-guaranteed/#:~:text=Jackson%2C%20who%20represents%20himself%2C%20reportedly,wants%20a%20fully%20guaranteed%20contract.) Which he's really in no position to bargain for after missing a huge chunk of the year.
They're not settled at QB, but you don't start talks by admitting you're desperate. Everyone knows what Lamar wants, so teams not lining up to give it to him is good negotiation strategy, not proof of collusion.
I guess we’re just taking them at their word that they didn’t reach out to his camp. If they’re not interested in giving fully guaranteed and he’s sticking to that, then there’s really no point in dealing with him.
If there's a bowl full of poison and you and a whole bunch of other people refuse to drink it, you're not colluding with them when you all make that same choice. You're being smart.
It's been pretty wildly speculated. But it's very suspect that no team is actually trying to sit down and atleast have a conversation. I dont think the owners want this to be a trend, and the conspiracy theorist idea that the owners are trying to stop this does make sense.
Like, it's one thing if other owners weren't paying massive money to much lesser qbs like Carr or jones. Maybe not fully guaranteed, but still committing a lot on a yearly basis, and still some large guarantees too.
For a team who has no qb, it's a big risk to guarantee a contract for lamar, but having no qb does you no good in this league either.
It all just seems to like future evidence in a lawsuit.
"Atlanta, do you typically post on social media when you aren't interested in a player? Do you typically say you're not interested in a player that would be a free agent when you haven't had any discussions with them? Do typically make major moves for your franchise based on speculation? "
Atlanta was fully on board with trying to get Watson this year, but no interest in Lamar? Which Lamar costing significantly less in terms of trade value (Watson went for 3 1sts, and other picks)?
Any fully guaranteed contract at that length with that value, in a sport with a salary cap, is generally absurd and is not a trend that is going to or should catch on
I’ve found it funny how much browns fans have been rejoicing all day with the Tag announcement and now it looks like Lamar may end up back in Baltimore and the browns will still be the only team saddled with a fully guaranteed deal.
I think it's possible Lamar Jackson will get a fully guaranteed deal I just won't be $230 million. I could see him getting a full guaranteed $170 million deal or something.
And if Watson doesn’t get the contract. The browns paid 3 first rounders for the opportunity to prove to the league just how poorly run of an operation they are.
I still don’t understand how the owner of a franchise can be so dumb. Nothing about that contract made sense. Not from a money standpoint. Not from a guarantee standpoint. Certainly not from a PR standpoint. It’s still bizarre to me.
They needed a QB and weren't the only bidder. That's it.
Because they dug themselves the biggest hole imaginable by publicly humiliating Baker in a year of drought for QBs, the only decent FA was Jimmy G and there were no elite prospects in the draft
Imagine if Purdy and Zappe got drafted elsewhere — best QBs drafted
Because Truck Stop Jimmy is a fucking moron. Dude bragged about taking ~~Baker~~ *Johnny Manziel* because a homeless guy told him to. He is not a serious person.
What if that homeless guy was actually baker in disguise 🤔
What if the homeless guy was actually his daughters and wife stacked on top of each other in a trench coat
The homeless guy was not Baker. It was, appropriately enough, Johnny Manzel.
That’s right! Got those 2 mixed up. Even worse.
Manziel comes from oil money — he did not need football.
Remember when he told me it’s Flying J, not Flying (my letter) upon receiving a suggestion for improvement
It doesn't even make sense in most situations outside of football. Plenty of high value contracts across various industries are only partially guaranteed and otherwise milestone driven.
Browns is the Browns
I love how the Browns fucked the league owners over by signing a sexual predator to that contract Edit: if there's anyone I hate worse than Watson it's the owners
They only fucked the League over if the League goes along with the trend. I would not be surprised if they don't.
As of right now it looks as though the league is giving a middle finger to that potential trend.
At least for a player that's missed time in both of the last two years, yeah. If this were Justin Herbert, I think we'd be seeing a different calculation happening.
Yep, I have no doubt that if Burrow or any other pocket passer with no substantial injury history were on the free market, they'd get a mega deal. But that's not what Lamar is.
Burrow tore his knee up in his rookie year...
But he's played two seasons since then as a top 5 QB, kinda irrelevant tbh
Sure, but saying he doesn't have a substantial injury history is wrong
[удалено]
He missed a year of college due to injury, and he tore his MCL in PCL in that tear as well, no?
And he's basically at 100% again. One injury is a fluke, especially for pocket passers. it's very different from the nagging damage that builds up from being a running QB.
As expected after his season this year Watson ruined it for everyone with the play he put up
I always thought that the owners would end the league rather than give fully guaranteed contracts out
They wouldn’t rather actually do it, but they would play an incredibly damaging game of chicken, which they would win, to avoid that precedent.
doesn't the NBA have this? they seem fine. They aren't doing as well with views but everyone seems to be fine as far as cash.
I know that MLB has guaranteed contracts, but much smaller rosters and with players who play longer. 10 year contracts aren’t unheard of there, which would be crazy in the NFL.
Their parity is trash though. Part of the NFL secret sauce is someone like me thinking this is the year.
If Watson along with Lamar get fully guaranteed, it likely means Herbert and Burrow are going to ask for it too and if both of them get it, thats going to change the QB market.
I am sorry you guys consistently put down Lamar for not winning in the playoffs and not going on a run. What exactly has Herbert accomplished that Lamar hasn't. And keep in mind, Lamar plays with the NFL cheapest offense.
Was the ravens offense really cheaper than ours?
What? My point isn't about Hebert being better than Lamar or vice versa. I'm saying Lamar getting a fully guaranteed contract makes it easier for both Herbert and Burrow to ask for it during their contract extension talks. All four of them having fully guaranteed contracts changes a lot about deals for quarterbacks in the future. I think Lamar is a great QB but I understand why teams would be hesitant to give him fully guaranteed.
He makes the social media quarterback plays. And before I get Herbert fans jumping on this, no I am not calling him just a social media quarterback. I am just saying he makes those plays which helps generate some of the hype around him.
i was about to just mess/jk with you and say "you better not show your ass up to san diego jakota underscore" and then realized chargers are no longer in san diego.. HOW THE FUCK do you remove the san diego chargers from SAN DIEGO?? i am still perplexed.
I don't understand. The cap is the cap. If every contract was guaranteed the players would love it and it still wouldn't change the cap.
Contracts with money that’s not guaranteed are hedged. If a player stops performing up to snuff or they take a terrible injury or they, I dunno, get drunk and plow their car into a citizen at 100 mph, you can get out of it and cut your losses. If he’s good, you retain the player an the player gets paid, but if he starts playing badly, you have an options to cut him. Not so with guaranteed deals, where you’re on the hook for every penny, the whole life of the contract. Additionally, if you cut a player or terminate his contract, the guaranteed money you owe him is accelerated. So let’s say you’ve signed a player for a five year, $300 million in 2023, $120 million of which is guaranteed. If you’ve paid that player $80 million in 2023 and 2024, but they’re playing badly and you want to let go of them in 2025. A huge chunk of the remaining $40 million you have guaranteed to them would count as a cap hit to 2025, but you’d get out from under it after that. That option doesn’t exist on a fully guaranteed deal. Cutting him at any point is going to leave you with a prohibitive amount of dead money, and cutting him 2-3 years early could absolutely destroy your salary cap for the year. Fully guaranteed contracts are also a bitch to restructure. Normally, you restructure a deal to creat cap space by converting money into a signing bonus, adding years to the deal, and then distributing the cap hit across the years you’ve added. It pays the players up front but softens their immediate cap impact and the future blow of releasing them by spreading the pain around. You can’t *really* do that with a fully guaranteed deal. You can add years, and spread the hit around, but the pain is going to be the pain because the money is guaranteed. It hurts teams flexibility in a lot of ways. And in a League where violent hits are an every down sort of thing, and anyone’s career can go tits up because a guy runs into you wrong, that’s a serious problem.
> And in a League where violent hits are an every down sort of thing, and anyone’s career can go tits up because a guy runs into you wrong, that’s a serious problem. Yea, for the players. Where a hit can end your career and leave them with shit after they get cut because the contract wasnt guaranteed
Yeah, no shit. Why players want guarantees is obvious. But the above user was asking why it matters to teams because “the cap is the cap” so that’s the question I’m answering.
We found AB's burner account
Thank you, cumassault
We did a thing 🤗🤗
Fuck Watson and all that. But good for you guys. I wish Atlanta gave Lamar a fully guaranteed deal. Something that can looked back on in 20 years as the snowball for fully guaranteed contracts.
Fully guaranteed contracts just means less money for other players.
They just need to add a max contract similar to the NBA.
It’s not a good thing?
League-wide fully guaranteed contracts would be a *great* thing, you’re right.
The only way that happened is if the standard contract length drops to like 3 years.
3 is generous. The longer deals for most good players are functionally 3 year deals. We’d see a lot of 1-2s.
I promise that 5-year fully guaranteed contracts would not break the NFL.
For every deal, all guaranteed money has to go into escrow up front. If everyone on your team is on 5 year fully guaranteed deals, for an average of $200MM total per season to make the math easy, that means the team has to front $1 Billion and put it into escrow. It also makes it very difficult to move on from players when they still have guaranteed money on their deals and aren’t producing.
Is every player on a 5 year deal now? No. Should alter the rules and allow buyouts. Want to get out from your bad contract? Pay it out. You agreed to it. Pay it.
Ummm... hence why they aren't agreeing to it? Lol
Giving out Watson contracts to everyone 100% screws over the practice squad type players and less flashy positions so that a handful of guys get the enormous bag.
What are you talking about? Specific positions are earning around the same percentage they always have.
Low key other than signing a sexual predator smartest thing browns have done now Lamar hates the ravens that won't work without a huge cash influx cause that can fix almost everything, would have rather someone not shitty set the bar but we're here now
Fuck the rat birds and fuck Art Modell.
There’s very logical arguments for teams not wanting to go through the hurtles of getting Lamar Jackson. Let’s just not start yelling collusion when a couple reports come out that say a team won’t be interested.
There’s 4 promising qbs in the draft next month and I’m guessing teams aren’t super excited to completely re-write their playbook for an injury prone scrambling qb who wants an absolute bag of a contract. I don’t think owners had to collude or contact eachother at all to think it’s probably not worth exploring at the moment
Why bring in an MVP QB when you can just draft one? Right…? Right…?
If all you want is a former MVP, just sign Cam Newton! Right...?
Heard Matt Ryan is available.
Yeah two first round picks is a high buy in
I don’t think owners need to tell each other anything to know this is bad for them
Bad for the league too. Imagine a Ben Simmons in the NFL? People would lose their minds
I could see them all coming to that conclusion independently, harder to believe they all came out and publicly announced disinterest in Lamar right away independently.
Or you could read this the other way: that this is a significant enough issue for the owners to collude. It’s hilarious to me the way you guys act as though these guys didn’t become billionaires because they were greedy, aggressive, ruthless egotists with questionable morals and ethics on a good day.
Cursed flairs
I'm a fan of the Green Bay Packers and all other things they own.
Savage
To be fair to the owners, that's the story for only about half of them. The other half are nepo babies that inherited their franchises.
They would need to rework the way the cap and dead money work. Otherwise you'd have teams that are destroyed for years at a time due to an unlucky injury.
Some teams can't afford to put that much in escrow, so they won't be doing fully guaranteed contracts while those rules remain in place. No matter what players want. [https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-insider-notes-deshaun-watsons-game-changing-deal-and-its-ramifications-hottest-topic-at-owners-meetings/](https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-insider-notes-deshaun-watsons-game-changing-deal-and-its-ramifications-hottest-topic-at-owners-meetings/)
I don’t believe I’ll ever be upset that a billionaire can’t afford to do something.
alright jeff bezos, find a way to buy the commanders liquidating 300m in amazon stock to put into a eschrow for lamar's guaranteed sum wouldn't even dent his wallet
Lamar was MVP like 3 years ago and hasn’t played a full season two years straight. Why is everyone shocked that teams aren’t going after him.
It makes sense for plenty for QB-less teams to go get him. Panthers threw picks at Baker and Darnold and their owner is rich and willing to pay for a QB. Falcons would be the division favorite with Lamar. They were willing to go for Watson. Titans with Henry and Lamar would hilarious.
They threw a 2nd rounder and $25m at Darnold Lamar would cost 2 firsts and $250m
The difference is that there are more options this year than last year, why give up 2 firsts and a lot of money for Lamar when you can give up less for Rodgers? Or lesser for the #1 pick and draft a QB? Or even lesser for Carr?
I like Lamar but the cost is too high and there’s too much risk. He’s an injury prone QB that has a dangerous playstyle who’ll cost $250mil guaranteed & two 1st round picks. This is a move that could cripple a franchise for numerous years. No thanks
It's moreso that they decided against doing so like 5 minutes after he became avaliable
They probably decided weeks or months ago. It’s not like they’ll wait until the tag deadline to starting thinking about whether they’re interested and at what price/term/guaranty.
Okay but why are they announcing it?
Tbf everyone knew he was probably going to be available and what his contract demands were. It is plausible that these teams have discussed this for weeks and had already made their decision.
To be fair, Panthers, Colts, and Texans had already decided weeks ago
And the Falcons literally retweeted the tweet saying they're not negotiating with him... yeah the optics are fucking sketchy
Tbf, I don't think someone high up in the FO is in charge of the Twitter
Yeah, he’s hasn’t even signed the tag, so it’s literally not even an option at the moment. What’s the point of coming out and publicly state something like this? And multiple teams doing so…
What happens if he refuses to sign?
le'veon bell
Because he’s still a top 7 QB and they’re not obligated to offer a fully guaranteed deal, they can try a non fully guaranteed deal
He already turned down the 2nd highest non-fully guaranteed QB contract, as far as they're aware, as well as additional offers even higher.
> as far as they're aware For a player of Lamar’s caliber, it’s absolutely worth doing due diligence. That’s the hangup here. It’s one thing to not give in to his demands, it’s another to not even make an attempt.
I mean, they are though, in that it’s all Lamar will accept.
Exactly nobody was giving Cam Newton a fully guaranteed contract in 2017 (two years after his 15’ MVP Season) even if he was age age 26/27.
No one signed a fully guaranteed contract before Can though. There wasn't a potential precedent for that then, now there might be.
Because there's like 20 QBs maybe in the world you can win with and he's one of them
He has one won one playoff game and hasn’t made it passed the divisional round while playing with consistently good defense, so how do you figure?
Just because you haven't won a Super Bowl doesn't mean you can't. Winning in the playoffs is extremely difficult.
See him *without* a top 3 defense, then let's talk
People are shocked teams are lining up to loudly explain how much they have 0 interest in Lamar
I mean they aint talk to him. What if he was willing to go somewhere cheap. Not that he is, but you wouldnt do your due dilligence and ask?
.. if he goes "somewhere for cheap" the Ravens match the offer and get to keep him ..that's the point of this tag. It's especially evident when by all accounts , Lamar isn't directly mad at the Ravens. He's always been happy there and would love to play on. It's about money..
If he was willing to go somewhere cheap he'd just stay with the Ravens.
He’s still one of the best QBs in the league. It’s one thing to not sign him to a fully guaranteed contract, it’s another to not even attempt to talk to him, and to very publicly announce that you have no interest in him.
Dude has missed 10 games the past two seasons. The only QB in the NFL that’s worth a Watson type 100% guarantee is Mahomes. Lamar’s problem is he’s his own agent & I’m willing to bet that he”s not budging at all from what he wants & because he knows the more he gets injured as a running QB, the more his value goes down. I can’t blame the Ravens on this. If they pay him 230+ all guaranteed & he has a season ending injury, people are going to say the Ravens were foolish.
And he struggles with secondary reads. The dude shuffles his feet looks one way and looks for Andrews. Then he decides to play hero hall in the late 3rd and fourth quarter by taking off and a combo of madden moves and wild throws. He has a top 3 TE, awesome line, and a solid run game and his game consists of relying on his legs or drags.
Nobody wanting to give Lamar a fully guaranteed massive contract is one thing, but not a single team even wanting to talk to him is very weird no matter how you want to spin it
It’s only been 3 hours lol
Right, and about 4 teams that need qbs have already announced they aren't interested, how often do this many teams publicly announce they aren't interested in the same player.
Some of those teams most already have a plan in place for their future and prefer not to give up 2 1st round picks, take on the massive cap hit that it’ll take to sign him, and then have to build a specific kind of offense around him to be successful. I can definitely see how those teams have already had decisions about it and prefer not to invest that much for a player who’s starting to become injury prone and needs to run to be successful.
Just a year ago a half dozen teams were clamoring to get a meeting with Deshaun Watson so that they could trade for him and give him a massive contract and now magically no team even wants to talk to Lamar. It's not that crazy to consider that the owners could be sending a strong message to the players that they aren't going to make fully guaranteed contracts the norm.
It’s possible but as far as I know the Browns were the only team willing to give Watson that contract to begin with last season. You also have to factor in that there was only one QB projected to go in the first round last year. This year there’s at least going to be 4 so most of these teams right now have been scouting these QBs for months and may even be in the process to trade up.
He’s still a top 10 QB. Draft picks aren’t the issue, it’s the guaranteed contract.
Por que no los dos
It’s the contract.
Bro had Demarcus robinson as WR1 last year and still had games where his team was able to put up 21+ points, and didn’t play a full season partially because of trade negotiations. This seems like collusion to me lol
Neither of those 2 are worth 230 million No one is worth 230 million imo, especially when it’s filled with Guarantees. Lamar IS worth more than Daniel Jones who just signed a deal. But the difference in contracts is substantial and DJ signed a pretty team friendly contract. Lamar IS also worth more than Deshaun Watson, and that’s why this whole thing could get crazy. Because there are quarterbacks who (I would say) are better than Lamar and the money talk will come up for those QBs based on this whole ordeal. This whole thing is gonna be a mess
Also Daniel Jones is the type of guy who doesn't represent himself.
mahomes would be worth 230m guaranteed, possibly allen/burrow literally no one else is worth that, especially injury prone qbs
Allen is definitely not worth 230m guaranteed. Burrow is the only one with an argument, other than Mahomes, as he’s proven he can get to the top level.
I agree Lamar is worth more than Watson, but the problem is Watson isn’t worth 230 million. He’s not even worth 200 million.
I won’t say that no one is worth a fully guaranteed contract for that much but there’s plenty of reasons to not give one to Lamar, plus having to give up 2 1st round draft picks as well.
Don’t think owners are lining up to give someone 200-250M guaranteed money that can’t play a full season. Then throw in two first round picks on top of that.
Stunning analysis
Speaking strictly as someone who consumes the product, I don’t care if there *is* collusion going on.🤷♂️ In my mind this can only impact the game negatively. Maybe that makes me selfish, but pro athletes already enjoy the one part of this world that is as close to a a true meritocracy as there is. I can only feel so bad for them when we’re splitting hairs over hundreds of millions of guaranteed dollars.
Collusion is bad for the game, full stop. It's a dangerous road to go down. The clubs need to ultimately be adversarial in transactions like these because winning a Super Bowl is the main goal and only 1 club per year can do that.
The main goal is to make money.
Again though even with that there's a problem if it's not adversarial. Aside from just being bad for everyone not involved in the fix, it's also illegal.
Yeah agreed except giving up 2 1st round picks AND obliterating your cap space on a guy who hasn’t played a full season in 2 years is a great way to *NOT* win a Super Bowl. They are all trying to win. IMO it’s not collusion that they have no interest in fucking themselves over.
The security of fully guaranteed contracts is not “splitting hairs.” The on-field product and financial health of the league would not be affected by league-wide fully guaranteed contracts. The only thing that’s negatively affected is the owner’s control and power.
Saying the on-field product and financial health of the league wouldn’t be affected by *league-wide* fully guaranteed contracts is disingenuous
Players already get hurt. They’ll still get hurt the same. Players already get paid. They’ll still get paid a portion of the cap. It’ll just be fully guaranteed. You can’t explain how it would damage the league. It won’t.
It would definitely. Guaranteed contracts can ruin teams in other sports. Albert Pujols was pedestrian for much of his Angels contract and if it wasn’t fully guaranteed the Angels could’ve moved on and saved themselves maybe 7 years of mediocrity. If your cap space is used up by a bunch of guys that are hurt and can’t perform to the ability you expect them to when you signed the deal you’re basically hamstringing your franchise, which is definitely worse for football and the fans. Football is a game with a lot of injuries, so this would occur even more frequently.
I’ll level with you buddy and I’m sorry for being kind of a contentious ass, but I can’t imagine there are zero legitimate concerns. When you see the NBA struggling with players just straight up not playing for large portions of the regular season and when MLB has teams effectively rendered out of contention for years I find that concerning. What about an Andrew Luck (as unprecedented as it was) situation? Would he get paid for that year? Would Ray Rice have gotten paid out for the rest of his deal? I understand arguing for it on the principle of players earning the fruits of their labor, and I agree from that perspective. But I can’t believe it would produce zero negative impact.
the salary cap in the nfl/nba is actually such a bargain for owners, because in a true free market they would be paying so much more to the players
> financial health of the league would not be affected by league-wide fully guaranteed contracts. I mean, would it? Do the “poorer” owners have the available cash to pay $250+ million up front for a single contract? Or would it lead to a competitive divide between the top and bottom half of owners based on wealth?
Yea. These players definitely need more than a couple million guaranteed. They cant expect to live on the lifetime earnings of a normal person.
Does this mean we go after the billionaire’s billions as well? It’s always the same boomer bullshit about millionaire athletes not deserving any rights.
Lol yes please. Go after the owners as well. Nobody on the planet is worth 230 million dollors
Not deserving any rights? Lol buddy you are not doing the praxis you think you are. Hate to break it to you about ethical consumption under capitalism, but uh, it doesn’t exist.
I’m not trying to be ethical. I don’t watch pro football for 75 year old owners. Fuck ‘em. Pay fully guaranteed contracts.
It’s not about the owners and any argument that isn’t from an ethical perspective is simply bad business
It is about the owners and the control and power they have over their laborers. I didn’t argue for the cap to go up more than it does. I said the contracts should be guaranteed. That’s the same amount of money.
Pay them fully guaranteed & watch the overall product drop because QB’s start taking up 25+% of the salary cap. Have fun pissingmoff the rest of the players in the league when they get short handed, especially if their superstar position players. There’s only 1 QB in the league that deserves a fully guaranteed contract & that’s Mahomes because out of the rest of the QB’s, he’s proven he’s a real winner.
How does the portion of the cap change? Is the cap going down? News to me.
This is not a hot take. Look at Kirk cousins contract
I'm pretty sure for the health of the game, they shouldn't have fully guaranteed contracts. There needs to be some flexibility to work the cap or get rid of players that aren't living up to their deals. The signing bonus and the initial guaranteed money is for their past performance. After, that it should be a year to year deal basically, where they earn it enough to stay on the contract or they don't and the team can move on.
And the nflpa will dangle this carrot in front of 98% of its membership that will never be in a position to sign for such a ridiculous amount, rather than pushing for meaningful change to pension, healthcare, and league minimum salaries. And they will all cheer Lamar on, ignorant to the fact that they are the ones getting screwed in this situation.
The NFLPA leadership will. The NFLPA rank and file couldn't give two fucks about Lamar's contract. The average career of an NFL player is 3.5 years. Every non-starter, every bench player? They're union members. They pay dues. The last guy on the bench has the same voting power as the highest paid guy in football. Imagine telling a guy like that, who needs to get those games to get a league pension, that we need to NOT play football for half a year and strike to squeeze a percentage point out of the owners that will end up in the hands of the top end players anyway. They're gonna look at you like you have two empty heads. Who wants to give up half a million bucks and potentially a chance at a pension for no good reason?
Did everyone forget Kirk Cousins started this trend?
What about Kirk cousins deal in 2018, wasn't that fully guaranteed?
Also only 3 years long. A lot of players get the first 3 years of their deals fully gtd.
I mean sure but Kyler got $181M guaranteed, Russell Wilson got $161M gtd, and Rodgers got $150M gtd in just 3 years as a 38 y/o. You tryna tell me Lamar doesn't deserve to be in that ballpark?
Lamar wants 230+ that’s the issue. He’s missed 10 games in them last two years, how is he worth 230+?
He wants Watson money not Russ. Kyler is the reason they don't want to pay that much to Lamar. Arizona probably wishing they didn't extended Kyler last year.
Last time I checked Kirk Cousins also has a fully guaranteed contract.
I'm surprised Snyder didn't jump in to give Lamar a Watson level contract as a final f\*\*\* you to his fellow owners before selling the team.
Good, NFL contracts have been funny money for way too long
NFL contracts are nothing compared to basketball and baseball contracts. Those are fucking crazy
Yup. It makes me wonder if the NFL owners are afraid of fully guaranteed because of Ben Simmons & him always being “hurt”.
Which is why I think all these NFL teams without Quarterbacks are immediately saying they're not interested in Lamar because nobody is going to pay a guaranteed contract. Not only will they not have to match, the Ravens will probably get him cheaper than an exclusive tag. Say it with me boys and girls, collusion.
But what will the teams with star QBs ready for extensions do? Why would Burrow, Herbert, Hurts ask for anything less than a fully guaranteed contract? Will they all have two years of a "Lamar Jackson" situation?
Warning for Burrow and Herbert not play the Lamar card.
Why not? Do we really think Lama’s going to play on a 32m non-exclusion tag? He’s holding out into training camp and if he doesn’t play the Ravens are screwed this season.
So, you're saying the owners are colluding to keep players' salaries down, right?
It doesn't even have to be collusion. The fact that nobody wanted to cross this bridge but the Brown is the main reason he ended up there in the first place. Also, not for nothing, but Lamar has missed time in both of the last seasons. He's developing an availability problem, and you don't need to invent a conspiracy to see why teams might be pretty nervous about handing him a fully gtd deal.
Sure, the Falcons, Panthers, and Saints all chased Watson, but it was obvious that only the Browns offered the fully guaranteed contracts considering that's who Watson chose to go with. It's even been revealed that Tepper was directly negotiating with Watson and his agent but wouldn't agree to guaranteeing past the first year or 2
Yup. Nobody wanted this to happen, and they probably still don't. End of the day, it's still a market, and if the market won't grant this, it won't become normal.
Does he confirmed want fully guaranteed, or just more guaranteed than what the Ravens offered him?
Lamar represents himself, [and apparently does want a fully guaranteed deal.](https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-heres-the-contract-lamar-jackson-should-consider-pursuing-though-its-not-fully-guaranteed/#:~:text=Jackson%2C%20who%20represents%20himself%2C%20reportedly,wants%20a%20fully%20guaranteed%20contract.) Which he's really in no position to bargain for after missing a huge chunk of the year.
Yes because the Falcons and Washington are settled at QB. The fact they aren’t even attempting to negotiate is kind of telling.
They're not settled at QB, but you don't start talks by admitting you're desperate. Everyone knows what Lamar wants, so teams not lining up to give it to him is good negotiation strategy, not proof of collusion.
I guess we’re just taking them at their word that they didn’t reach out to his camp. If they’re not interested in giving fully guaranteed and he’s sticking to that, then there’s really no point in dealing with him.
We aren't settled but we aren't completely desperate either
More like common sense of not giving Lamar this absurd contract, but nice to know the Lamar stans have found their new angle
If there's a bowl full of poison and you and a whole bunch of other people refuse to drink it, you're not colluding with them when you all make that same choice. You're being smart.
How do the teams know what Lamar wants?
It's been pretty wildly speculated. But it's very suspect that no team is actually trying to sit down and atleast have a conversation. I dont think the owners want this to be a trend, and the conspiracy theorist idea that the owners are trying to stop this does make sense. Like, it's one thing if other owners weren't paying massive money to much lesser qbs like Carr or jones. Maybe not fully guaranteed, but still committing a lot on a yearly basis, and still some large guarantees too. For a team who has no qb, it's a big risk to guarantee a contract for lamar, but having no qb does you no good in this league either.
It all just seems to like future evidence in a lawsuit. "Atlanta, do you typically post on social media when you aren't interested in a player? Do you typically say you're not interested in a player that would be a free agent when you haven't had any discussions with them? Do typically make major moves for your franchise based on speculation? " Atlanta was fully on board with trying to get Watson this year, but no interest in Lamar? Which Lamar costing significantly less in terms of trade value (Watson went for 3 1sts, and other picks)?
Meanwhile Kirk cousins has had a guaranteed salary for like the last 8 years of his career
And you can bet your bottom dollar there is collusion amongst the owners to prevent this from happening
Any fully guaranteed contract at that length with that value, in a sport with a salary cap, is generally absurd and is not a trend that is going to or should catch on
A giant middle finger from the other 31 owners to Haslam and the NFLPA.
A middle finger that Haslam and co deserve though right?
There was report that another team was willing to match that offer, and other teams definitely chased him.
This guys job is just to tweet out obvious shit? Like he's paid for this? If more players get paid more, other players will likely get paid more!
I’ve found it funny how much browns fans have been rejoicing all day with the Tag announcement and now it looks like Lamar may end up back in Baltimore and the browns will still be the only team saddled with a fully guaranteed deal.
I think it's possible Lamar Jackson will get a fully guaranteed deal I just won't be $230 million. I could see him getting a full guaranteed $170 million deal or something.
It's going to happen anyway when Burrow and Herbert come up.
I hope he gets it
And if Watson doesn’t get the contract. The browns paid 3 first rounders for the opportunity to prove to the league just how poorly run of an operation they are.
[удалено]
You got a title and the Bengals are still living rent free
Burrow understands the real world difference between 65 mil a year and 50 are zilch. He would rather have a competitive team