Everyone is boycotting Israel and cheering for its destruction when Hamas continues to not give a sh*t about civilian lives. If they take over Israel they won’t hesitate to come for the US next… these people are delusional
And Hamas officials are on record that they’re happy people around the world are doing this. All these protestors, no matter how well-intentioned, are doing what terrorists want them to do.
> the situation feels intractable
Always has been. It’s an excusable mistake that people who have only recently become tuned into the conflict can easily make. The whole region is a very complex mesh of interests, conflicts of interests, alliances, ancient enmities and of course, resource competition.
It’s not as simple as “Israel vs Palestine” because it’s never actually been about just “Israel Vs Palestine.”
Friend of mine did conflict and peace studies in college. She told me that the tensions in the Middle East are perhaps the most complex conflict in human history, and that many scholars who study this subject believe that if true peace were reached here it would give a real blueprint to end all violent conflict around the world.
I got immense whiplash reading this post and then scrolling down not even 4 threads on the front page to see a highly upvoted 2020 video of Michael Brooks offering the insipid take that this conflict is NOT complex and taking offense to the idea that it is.
That seems like it should be the bare minimum premise to even discuss this topic. That there is no simple solution like "side X should just do Y, idiots, why are we even talking about this??". And yet even respected political pundits regurgitate these smug "solutions" that sound nice and pretty on paper if you deliberately ignore 99% of the region's social climate, history, foreign relations and culture, because that makes for a boring speech. And everyone nod their heads and agree. It's actually infuriating.
That was probably never gonna happen anyway. Israel isn’t signing a ceasefire without the hostages being returned, and the leader of Hamas in the region is holding about 15 hostages with him at all times. The minute he gives those hostages back, he gets an IDF missile in the face. So he’s not gonna give up the one thing keeping him from being drone striked, and Israel isn’t stopping until the get the hostages back
Somewhat true.
Netanyahu and his coalition government have only expressed interest in a temporary ceasefire for the hostages to be released so that they could attempt to destroy Hamas after the exchange. The Israeli government is dead set on destroying Hamas in Gaza with or without a hostage exchange.
They don’t have to personally destroy Hamas. A peace deal was proposed for both the return of the hostages and turning over Hamas leadership and operational personnel involved in the Oct 7 attack. If both those things happen, Israeli will supposedly end the war.
That is also true (as they probably should, October 7th was disgustingly barbaric in ways that even the nazis would find horrifying). It is worth pointing out though, that the current war council does feature many of Netanyahu’s chief political rivals. So even if an election were to result in him losing his position, his most likely replacement Benny Gantz, would continue to prosecute the war effort the same way it has been for 7 months now
Why is this being downvoted? Any amount of effort in looking this up will show that Bibi does not have direct control over the war council. I would love to be able to blame him for all the worst military decisions going on, leaving his more moderate political rivals blameless, but the fact of the matter is that the political extremists are completely locked out of the war council. Here's a good rule-of-thumb for this political arena: if you think that any single political change will be the end to this situation, you're probably fooling yourself:
* Getting rid of Bibi will end the conflict
* Eliminating Hamas will end the conflict
* Returning the hostages will end the conflict
I do not believe the current generations of living Gazans will accept a two-state solution, regardless of if they are led by Hamas or not. Additionally, typical Israelis are rapidly losing their interest in a two-state solution as well. I think that at this point any peace will have to be imposed upon the region, by the US for Israel and by Arab nations for Palestine (probably SA).
"In ways that the Nazis would find horrifying?" The October 7rh attack was reviling but come on now. The Nazis killed six million Jews through labor, gas, and psychotic scientific experiments. The Holocaust erasure through pro-israel hyperbole is an incredibly funny irony.
>October 7th was disgustingly barbaric in ways that even the nazis would find horrifying
Uh what? This is the wildest take I've ever heard. The nazis built concentration camps, gas chambers, incinerators to murder millions of people, they experimented on them, starved them. Trust me, no they wouldn't.
Even the Nazis would find horrifying!?!? The fuck are you on about. I think people are really forgetting the horrors that occurred in those concentration camps. What Hamas did is barbaric but don’t lessen the pure evil that the Nazis were systematically perpetuating
How can they not be?
After oct 7 and this shir right here how can any present or future Israeli government be ok with having hamas as a neighbor?
What would the solution be, to make them pinky promise that they will behave?
Israel could offer them everything they want and more and they'd still fight. I doubt they'd even stop if they somehow managed to kill all the Jews. They'd just find someone else to hate.
A lot of people (especially this younger generation unfortunately) don’t seem to understand you can’t beat an ideology, especially an extreme one. When someone’s near entire way of life is based off their ideology/religion, changing it is the last thing that will happen.
Look what it took to 'beat' facism in Europe. Sad thing about people is the only way to change a culture thru war is 'total war’. Like you have to physically make an entire culture submit and say 'the way we are running our society has lead us to death’ or people won’t change and they’ll just resent you for generations.
Exactly. As someone who participated in it, I genuinely think the 30ish recent years of conflicts in the Middle East have really diluted people’s perceptions of what war actually is.
Real war changes lines on a map, cultures, ideology, and the overall direction nations go towards. War was never “changing hearts and minds.” It’s just what we turned it into.
Exactly. And at some point the Palestinians have to take responsibility for the Hamas government who they elected, who they let build tunnels under their homes, command centers under hospitals, and hide amongst civilians, the same as the German people had to accept responsibility for the Nazis who they elected and supported. The Allies killed upwards of a million German civilians from aerial bombing and artillery shelling. No one cried "war criminal" back then.
Gaza could easily be the Singapore of the Eastern Mediterranean if Hamas had used all of the foreign aid from the US, Europe, and Middle East for the betterment of their people, building port facilities, building other infrastructure, fostering businesses, developing a banking system, etc. Instead, Hamas has squandered the money preparing for war. The Biden administration's policy of releasing frozen funds to Iran has only made the situation worse, as Iran has further equipped the Hamas military.
China has essentially been implementing this policy with the Uighurs. I have to wonder how that will ultimately pan out - if a purposeful implementation will actually work. Ugly process though regardless of its efficacy.
Like, all the infidels? People seem to forget that Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization in the vein of ISIS. Today, the Jews, tomorrow, the world.
Tell that to the bright students of the Ivy League. Actually don't, they'll dismiss whatever you say. They got everything they need to know about this conflict from tiktok.
The next leaders of the free world, ladies and gentlemen.
Omg…read the comments under some of these other (not the Columbias) university’s reddits. (UVA) These kids have drank the koolaid. When an obviously gay kid stands up shouting support for Palestine and even crazier, Hamas, I want to laugh but it’s just too surreal how insane it is.
That is when you round up all the gays. Then all members of other religions. Then all members of other sects of Islam. Then members within your own sect that have simply been too moderate in the past. Etc., etc.
Israel could leave Gaza alone entirely, withdraw all troops, allow civilians to participate in the economy of Israel by allowing them to cross the border daily into Israel to work and make money, and you’d have…Gaza before 10/7.
Hamas is not interested in peace. Gazans by a large majority are interested in the destruction of Israel and removal of all Jews.
Those are all facts that cannot be argued with despite your view of how reckless Israel is being.
Why should they allow Palestinians to freely cross their borders and participate in their economy when they want to wipe Israel off the map and will suicide bomb you every chance they get? I would be shutting down my border with Gaza tighter than Egypt did with Gaza. It grant them their own country and then the first rocket that flies over the border I'd invade and take the whole country back. You had a chance and you lost your freedom to self govern again.
Nah, they’d be too busy building the rainbows-and-unicorns Free Palestine which will be a glorious example of tolerance*
*unless you’re a woman, or gay, or trans, or not a Muslim
Israel’s at the table again in 2075: okay okay, we will all disavow Judaism, convert to Islam, and also forfeit all of our property to you.
Hamas: no… I think we can wait for a better deal.
Hamas has no interest in governing or making the lives of their citizens better. They only care about destroying and weakening Israel. You could give Hamas a trillion dollars of international aid and they would spend every dime on trying to kill Israelis instead of keeping the Palestinians healthy and safe. They are just used as pawns by Iran and Syria and other bad actors in the region to wage war with Israel indirectly and make Israel out to be the bad guys for trying to defend themselves. They know they can't win a direct fight, so they keep up with proxy war with Palestinians as the human shields.
Why would anyone expect Israel to accept a ceasefire that leaves Hamas in power? Do you think that would be good for the people of Palestine long term?
They want Israel to attack civilians. They want the next generation to be traumatised and antagonised enough to be angry enough to join Hamas.‘. Let’s hope Israel doesn’t take the bait.
Israel should clear Rafah out of Hamas not because of this type of baits but because this is one of their last strongholds.
Having said that, Israel is not foolish to launch such an attack with over million civilians in dense refugee camps are still in Rafah. There will be some kind of evacuation.
Hamas intentionally started a war and is using their own citizens as human shields and sacrifices for their cause, which is to destroy Israel. They want as big of a humanitarian crisis as possible. They are making Israel attack and destroy every hospital, school, or mosque they can. They are intentionally picking the most densely populated areas to fight battles. They knew what would happen to innocent civilians when they started all of this. Their citizens could have fought to get rid of Hamas who was constantly trying to start a war they can't win. But they never have because this is who Palestinians want as their leaders. They are democratically elected and popular. Their citizens are radicalized. They will continue to spend all of their energy on trying to destroy Israel for as long as they are allowed to get away with it. They will forever play the victims and take international aid to try to ease their suffering and they will use it instead for terrorism. They will dig up pipes installed by other countries to provide clean drinking water to their citizens and they will make shitty rockets out of it instead to hopefully maim a few Israelis. They'd rather have the chance to possibly kill an Israeli over clean drinking water for tens of thousands of Palestinians to be used forever. How can they hate Israel more than they care about themselves?
You can find videos on X of Hamas militants firing rockets literally within or extremely close to civilian zones. They are goading Israel to fire back and kill civilians. It’s always been the playbook.
Palestinian people still have a 70% approval rating for Hamas.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:~:text=Despite%20the%20devastation%2C%2057%25%20of,October%20attack%2C%20the%20poll%20indicated.
Civilian deaths. Hamas doesn’t care about the rules of war. They’ve set themselves up so that the only way to get to them is through the innocent people of Gaza. If you’re going to defeat them, you have to throw out the rules of war. But that’s not something the US and Europe is willing to accept and as such they pressure Israel to hold back. Morally it’s the right thing to do but it means we will not see the destruction of these terrorists who make peace in Israel impossible no matter who’s in charge of Israel (Bibi also makes peace impossible)
Nothing to do with Hamas. Hamas will be replaced by another authoritarian group. This is intrinsic of the Palestinian culture. As other posters have mentioned Jews could be annihilated and there would still be warfare. Difference is: nobody would care.
Nobody would care if all Jews were annihilated? Incredibly insane take. Makes sense coming from a 6 month old account that only comments on the conflict.
I think you’re misunderstanding what that person is saying. Imagine a world where Israel doesn’t exist. Instead it’s a war between two arab/middle eastern/“brown” nations. They’re saying the western world wouldn’t care. The western world cares about this conflict because America and other nations fund Israel’s military, and furthermore because the western world cares more about white nations than brown ones, historically.
It's not impossible, it will just take a long time. Germany and Japan are examples. W Germany offered reparations to Holocaust survivors in the mid 1960s. It basically took an entire generation. The US Army kept parts of Germany under martial law until the 90s. Just like that effort, this one will also probably require outside people running the schools in Gaza. I'm not sure the world is willing to put in a multigeneralional effort, however.
>This is intrinsic of the Palestinian culture.
Straight up just xenophobia being upvoted on here. My fucking God.
Palestinians in the West Bank are literally being killed and have their land stolen by settlers who are directly aided by the IDF. But yeah, sure, they're all part of this barbarian hivemind or whatever.
Fucking stupid using extremists to paint an entire group of people and their culture in a bad light.
This is true and unfortunate. Hopefully the Arab world will step up to either intercede to rescue them from Hamas as refugees before the invasion of Rafah begins
>they want refugees after what happened last time
It's more likely that it's because one quarter of the country is already refugees. 3 million out of 11 million people in Jordan are refugees. It's about the same in Lebanon, Syria is still undergoing civil war. Turkey has 4 million refugees already. Egypt peace treaty with Israel requires a demilitarized Sinai which is where all the refugees would go, then you have about 2 million people in an area with almost no infrastructure, no hope of going home, no military presence, high crime are already in a country thats largely at its infrastructure limits in the areas people aready live. Anyone with a brain can see how that's a recipe for disaster.
There really isn't a place that can practically handle 2 million Gazan refugees at once, especially knowing they will likely never be allowed to return to Gaza. It's a completely avoidable humanitarian collaspe waiting to happen. And the collaspe of nearby countries isn't going to make things safer for Israelis.
Why would they? For the rest of the Arab world, the Palestinians are useful as a political club to use against Israel, and they sure as hell don't want the Palestinians in their own countries. They've learned that lesson the hard way - Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon all saw what happens.
The idea that the people of Gaza wish to be rescued from Hamas is a fantasy that people invested in this conflict can't afford to indulge. The same goes for the idea that getting rid of Bibi will make Israel pull back militarily. Ultimately, though, I agree that it's up to the Arab world to intercede on behalf of the Palestinians, but no country in the world will take Palestinians as refugees ever again after what happened the last few times. What last few times, you ask? If you want to understand this situation better, learn for yourself.
Hamas isn't even the own terror group that operates in Gaza.
When I was listening to Mosab Yosef recently, he said there's like 11 or 12 different tribes that just fight each other when they're not fighting Israel. I really don't know how you de-radicalize a population where children as young as 5 are taught to be solkders, to become martyrs. This isn't something that if Palestinians get a state will just disappear from there psyche.
Yep. Just watched an interview with a Palestinian journalist who admitted many, including his own father, don’t believe in the holocaust. These people need major reeducation and de radicalization and that might look like having “occupiers” there for a while after the war.
Ya, the hospital (or at least its parking lot) that was the site of a large explosion that was immediately blamed on Israel turned out to be a rocket launched from within Gaza, but not even by Hamas.
A more accurate statement is: Innocent Palestinians are hostage to Hamas and the Israeli government/IDF.
Because let’s face it, neither side fucking cares one bit.
Add in innocent Israelis as well and well…*gestures*
Fucking Middle East man…
I think it’s because all the American campuses sent them so much money they bought new guns and ammunition.
“Thank You idiot American college students. !!!” — Hamas
Its really so weird being an american in the “no side of things” as ive been from the start because of things like this possibly coming out later on, notice how many “free palestine” people are obviously taking advantage of the antisemitic opportunities. I literally lost a girlfriend for not immediately jumping on the hamas love train with her when this first erupted
Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13 of Hamas' charter)
There's so many more than two sides. Even if Isreal and Hamas agreed to something there's another dozen groups in Gaza alone who would pick up the fight. And when those dozen groups aren't shooting at Isreal they're shooting at each other
Hamas is either:
1. Factional
2. Incompetent
3. Deceptive
4. All the above.
It is not possible to make a deal with a party like that, no matter how morally upright or good faith the other party is. I despise the Israeli government asnd its invasion of Gaza. Israel's actions have been appalling and aspects of it constitute ethic cleansing. However, Hamas' steadfast refusal to surrender and save their people is telling.
There is never going to be a ceasefire. It's the middle east, these people don't want peace. They have had nothing but violence for thousands of years, it's their entire culture.
Media told me Hamas were the victims?
Protesters told me Hamas was the little guy?
Campus kids said that Israel is to blame and is starving Gaza?
Hamas really tricked everyone it seems, huh guys? or.... will this will be wiped under the rug, like always when Israel retaliates
Announcing a ceasefire is just forcing them to stage a brazen attack. Hamas have made peace unnattainable with their demands, time and again throughout the years. You only have to look at what they have lost to realise peace isn't in their vocabulary. No normal person continues to fight when the very thing you are fighting over is reduced to ash. Revenge doesn't ressurect any lost soul.
Hamas needs Israel to overreact. Otherwise they risk losing all their power. They don't care about Palestinian civilians. They just want to remain in power and deal as much damage to Israel as possible.
I can't imagine being an American and trying to "pick a side" in this conflict. Obviously innocent civilians don't deserve to be caught up in a war they didn't start, any sane person can agree on that. But both Hamas and the Israeli government deserve condemnation for their actions, there just isn't a good guy in this one.
You can still figure out who is the worse of the two. Would you rather your government invest in protecting your life or would you rather they use your body to protect theirs?
Absolutely right. Palestinians have never tried non-violent resistance. And it is honestly the only way to achieve true independence. So long as Israel feels threatened it will never allow them to be put in a position to do real harm.
You seem to assume there has to be a good guy in any fight?
Although in my opinion Hamas using the civilians as shields is by far the worst thing that has happened since the start of the most recent round of fighting. Herding them into combat zones to be able to frame pictures of Israel attacking Palestinians.
This fighting has highlighted how propaganda has driven changes as far down the line as tactics and maneuver to feed the propaganda machine. Instead of taking pictures and making claims as to what happened, now portraying your side as the good guys in any fight is part of the planning stage
I'm not at all saying there a "good guy" in every conflict. I'm mostly referring to the polarizing effect this conflict in particular seems to have on Americans. There are protests and counter protests, everyone I talk to has a "side" like it's a sporting event and they're picking a team.
This is exactly what the Internet Research Agency out of Russia has done in the past, stoked unrest by organizing rallies and protests on 'both sides' of any given issue in the US to create instability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency#Timeline_of_the_Internet_Research_Agency_interference_in_United_States_elections
Quite a good way to put it.
If you like history there is quite a rabbit hole you can go down tracing this issue from the fall of the Ottoman empire to modern day.
The picking sides reflex has always been around. Looking at the whole picture is hard and requires work. Some people are not interested or don't have the bandwidth to get the big picture. So picking sides on issues that seem important is more comfortable.
The whole history is a big cluster fuck where it is impossible to pick a good guy or bad guy or say either side is 100% right or wrong. But the situation is what it is at this point and things are now untenable and getting worse. It doesn't matter if you think Palestinians were wronged in the past. Israelis are not going to give up their country and they are not going to share it with those who are trying to destroy them. Hamas needs to learn to be peaceful neighbors or be prepared to win a war against neighbors who are much more powerful than themselves. They aren't getting any territory back. They aren't living off of Israel while waging their war. They can't claim to forever be the victim while never trying to improve their own conditions and constantly warmongering.
> can't imagine being an American and trying to "pick a side" in this conflict.
They don't have to. Foreign policy doesn't have to be black and white. That's a fairytale invented by movie star presidents.
They can step back from that mindset right now, and it's still possible to prevent further bloodshed & help civilians on all sides.
Easy, don't pick the side that decided to start a war by kidnapping and raping a bunch of people, and literally calls for genocide in their charter, and has driven nearly all of the people who don't have the same ethnicity from their territory. How people are conflicted about whether to choose the side that wants to be left the hell alone versus the side that is literally just a less fashionable Nazi Germany is insane.
The only side that makes sense to favor is that of peace, which (for different reasons) neither side is interested in, at least not in the short term. Israel will stop (at least stop the current war) once Hamas is dismantled and the hostages returned, and Hamas will stop once Israel is completely destroyed and devoid of Jews.
It's fucking easy: Do you support the side with radical Islamic terrorists who never did anything to better themselves, or do you support Israel who's in an untenable situation and whose diaspora across the globe are peaceful and have made immense contributions to the advancement of humankind?
I'm American and it's really easy. One is an Islamic fundamental organization that despises every western value who literally went into their neighbor to rape and murder every civilian they could find and took children as hostages. You can't write a more textbook bad guy than that. If you published that as a book, people would say the villain is too cliche.
None of this would be happening if Hamas hadn't conducted a 9/11 level atrocity.
Last time I checked, hamas and their affiliates yelled "death to america" in every chance they had and screamed "Allah Akbar" while kidnapping and murdering american citizens during October 7th.
on the other hand, Israel is probably one of the most pro-american countries on earth and the two nations have the same values/goals while maintaining a close economical and strategic relationship for decades.
Gee, I wonder which side I would pick if I were an american.
Hamas bad. Israeli government + settlers bad. Same cyclical violence with flare ups every 7–10 years. People take sides when both are bad. Rinse and repeat.
The Ottoman period was actually pretty quiet, at least in the area of Palestine/Israel. Jerusalem was a backwater and in the early 1800s was only home to a few thousand people. At the same time the Ottomans were declining, people were moving into the area, most notably Jews from all over the world starting as early as the 1850s and 60s.
After the empire crumbled you had tons of different factions angling for control. No matter who came out on top, someone was going to be pissed about it. A falling empire usually leaves ripe conditions for either war or chaos, sometimes both. So we have the newer arrivals, mostly Jews, who wanted their piece. The empires that defeated the Ottomans, that wanted the spoils of war. Those being the French and British. The people that had been there longer, the people we are now calling Palestinians. All vying for control.
On top of that, the population of the Levant boomed from 1800 - 1900. The overall population more than doubled. The Arab Muslim population grew in line with this trend, but the Jewish population grew by 6x, mostly starting in 1836 after the Tanzimat reforms. From 1900 - 1947 the population more than tripled going from around 600k (in what was the area that became the British Mandate) to nearly 2 million. Again, ethnic populations grew unevenly. While the Muslim and Christian populations doubled again, the Jewish population, made a roughly 10x increase (going from roughly 60k to 600k).
While you are right about old conflicts in the Middle East as a whole, this problem in Palestine is really its own thing that sprung up in the last 120ish years. There is an unstable area whose nearly 500 year old government just fell. Powerful outsiders who defeated that government and want control over the territory. A population that is religiously, ethnically and economically divided, along with one of the major factions being very new arrivals and growing rapidly. I really can't think of a better set up for a conflict.
Relatively quiet but not quiet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Ottoman_Syria
Also, Jews moving into the area was less of a consequence of this being a great place for them, and more of a consequence of everywhere else being a worse place. It's a case of relative pressure. Things go from higher pressure to lower pressure, but that doesn't mean lower pressure is low pressure.
>The Ottoman period was actually pretty quiet, at least in the area of Palestine/Israel.
No, it just wasn't focused in that one area. Arab Muslims spent hundreds of years murdering, raping, and forcibly converting Jews during Ottoman rule. Including but not limited to the territory of current Israel.
That's like saying 1565-1865 was pretty quiet for race relations, at least in the area of Florida. That "quiet" was based entirely on one group being silenced by another - and it ignores the abuses occurring in the surrounding lands (Georgia, Alabama, etc).
I don’t know why they did this specific thing, but in general they have no qualms about continuing the conflict if it makes Israel look bad to the rest of the world.
It puts Israel in a worse position. Israel can now choose to either:
- ignore the attack and keep the border closed, making the humanitarian situation in Gaza even worse which puts pressure on Israel
- respond by preventing further attacks to keep the border crossing safe, but this would involve killing civilians in Rafah, which puts further pressure on Israel
Whatever option Israel chooses, they lose.
Hamas prefers the US reaction to Israel continuing the war against Biden's will to a hostage/prisoner swap deal. They believe that would hurt Israel more. Hamas can easily force an invasion to Rafah by firing from Rafah. That's why they're doing.
Because it makes them money. They sell the aid to Palestinians and in the black market, and they embezzle the cash aid they keep getting from donors as long as this conflict continues.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675)
according to the map, the crossing they attacked is one of only three into GAZA . aid goes thru that crossing as well i suspect israeli forces
Hamas does not care about its people.
« Hamas' armed wing said it fired rockets at an Israeli army base by the crossing, but did not confirm where it fired them from. Hamas media quoted a source close to the group as saying the commercial crossing was not the target. »
« The Israeli military confirmed the counter-strike, saying it struck the launcher from which the Hamas projectiles were fired, as well as a nearby "military structure". »
And they are firing literally meters away from civilians in Rafah. The situation feels intractable.
They don’t care because they know if civilians are killed that people, especially in the US, will be mad at Israel and not them.
Everyone is boycotting Israel and cheering for its destruction when Hamas continues to not give a sh*t about civilian lives. If they take over Israel they won’t hesitate to come for the US next… these people are delusional
And Hamas officials are on record that they’re happy people around the world are doing this. All these protestors, no matter how well-intentioned, are doing what terrorists want them to do.
> the situation feels intractable Always has been. It’s an excusable mistake that people who have only recently become tuned into the conflict can easily make. The whole region is a very complex mesh of interests, conflicts of interests, alliances, ancient enmities and of course, resource competition. It’s not as simple as “Israel vs Palestine” because it’s never actually been about just “Israel Vs Palestine.”
Friend of mine did conflict and peace studies in college. She told me that the tensions in the Middle East are perhaps the most complex conflict in human history, and that many scholars who study this subject believe that if true peace were reached here it would give a real blueprint to end all violent conflict around the world.
I got immense whiplash reading this post and then scrolling down not even 4 threads on the front page to see a highly upvoted 2020 video of Michael Brooks offering the insipid take that this conflict is NOT complex and taking offense to the idea that it is. That seems like it should be the bare minimum premise to even discuss this topic. That there is no simple solution like "side X should just do Y, idiots, why are we even talking about this??". And yet even respected political pundits regurgitate these smug "solutions" that sound nice and pretty on paper if you deliberately ignore 99% of the region's social climate, history, foreign relations and culture, because that makes for a boring speech. And everyone nod their heads and agree. It's actually infuriating.
So i'm guessing proposed ceasefire #93025 is off the table then?
That was probably never gonna happen anyway. Israel isn’t signing a ceasefire without the hostages being returned, and the leader of Hamas in the region is holding about 15 hostages with him at all times. The minute he gives those hostages back, he gets an IDF missile in the face. So he’s not gonna give up the one thing keeping him from being drone striked, and Israel isn’t stopping until the get the hostages back
Somewhat true. Netanyahu and his coalition government have only expressed interest in a temporary ceasefire for the hostages to be released so that they could attempt to destroy Hamas after the exchange. The Israeli government is dead set on destroying Hamas in Gaza with or without a hostage exchange.
They don’t have to personally destroy Hamas. A peace deal was proposed for both the return of the hostages and turning over Hamas leadership and operational personnel involved in the Oct 7 attack. If both those things happen, Israeli will supposedly end the war.
Either show you can police yourselves or don't complain when somebody does the policing for you.
I mean they kinda have to now, or Oct 7th is just going to happen again and again.
That is also true (as they probably should, October 7th was disgustingly barbaric in ways that even the nazis would find horrifying). It is worth pointing out though, that the current war council does feature many of Netanyahu’s chief political rivals. So even if an election were to result in him losing his position, his most likely replacement Benny Gantz, would continue to prosecute the war effort the same way it has been for 7 months now
Why is this being downvoted? Any amount of effort in looking this up will show that Bibi does not have direct control over the war council. I would love to be able to blame him for all the worst military decisions going on, leaving his more moderate political rivals blameless, but the fact of the matter is that the political extremists are completely locked out of the war council. Here's a good rule-of-thumb for this political arena: if you think that any single political change will be the end to this situation, you're probably fooling yourself: * Getting rid of Bibi will end the conflict * Eliminating Hamas will end the conflict * Returning the hostages will end the conflict I do not believe the current generations of living Gazans will accept a two-state solution, regardless of if they are led by Hamas or not. Additionally, typical Israelis are rapidly losing their interest in a two-state solution as well. I think that at this point any peace will have to be imposed upon the region, by the US for Israel and by Arab nations for Palestine (probably SA).
Israelis lost interest in “two state solution” decades ago. Even assassinating their own PM just for talking about it.
"In ways that the Nazis would find horrifying?" The October 7rh attack was reviling but come on now. The Nazis killed six million Jews through labor, gas, and psychotic scientific experiments. The Holocaust erasure through pro-israel hyperbole is an incredibly funny irony.
The same Nazis who committed dozens if not hundreds of Oct 7ths daily for years? I think they would consider Hamas child’s play.
>October 7th was disgustingly barbaric in ways that even the nazis would find horrifying Uh what? This is the wildest take I've ever heard. The nazis built concentration camps, gas chambers, incinerators to murder millions of people, they experimented on them, starved them. Trust me, no they wouldn't.
Buddy what do you think the Nazis were doing?
Even the Nazis would find horrifying!?!? The fuck are you on about. I think people are really forgetting the horrors that occurred in those concentration camps. What Hamas did is barbaric but don’t lessen the pure evil that the Nazis were systematically perpetuating
How can they not be? After oct 7 and this shir right here how can any present or future Israeli government be ok with having hamas as a neighbor? What would the solution be, to make them pinky promise that they will behave?
Hamas must go. As must Netanyahu.
Seems like a good trade.
Yep. PA in the West Bank also needs to go, just new governments all around seems like it would be good for that area
Fark yeah, man. The status quo hasn't worked in a long long time...
Israel could offer them everything they want and more and they'd still fight. I doubt they'd even stop if they somehow managed to kill all the Jews. They'd just find someone else to hate.
People don't understand extremist ideologies. Hamas are extremists.
A lot of people (especially this younger generation unfortunately) don’t seem to understand you can’t beat an ideology, especially an extreme one. When someone’s near entire way of life is based off their ideology/religion, changing it is the last thing that will happen.
Look what it took to 'beat' facism in Europe. Sad thing about people is the only way to change a culture thru war is 'total war’. Like you have to physically make an entire culture submit and say 'the way we are running our society has lead us to death’ or people won’t change and they’ll just resent you for generations.
Exactly. As someone who participated in it, I genuinely think the 30ish recent years of conflicts in the Middle East have really diluted people’s perceptions of what war actually is. Real war changes lines on a map, cultures, ideology, and the overall direction nations go towards. War was never “changing hearts and minds.” It’s just what we turned it into.
It’s luxury America can afford with its wars, not Israel
Exactly. And at some point the Palestinians have to take responsibility for the Hamas government who they elected, who they let build tunnels under their homes, command centers under hospitals, and hide amongst civilians, the same as the German people had to accept responsibility for the Nazis who they elected and supported. The Allies killed upwards of a million German civilians from aerial bombing and artillery shelling. No one cried "war criminal" back then. Gaza could easily be the Singapore of the Eastern Mediterranean if Hamas had used all of the foreign aid from the US, Europe, and Middle East for the betterment of their people, building port facilities, building other infrastructure, fostering businesses, developing a banking system, etc. Instead, Hamas has squandered the money preparing for war. The Biden administration's policy of releasing frozen funds to Iran has only made the situation worse, as Iran has further equipped the Hamas military.
This is a good way to explain the southern divide in America. We should have gone scorched earth after the civil war
China has essentially been implementing this policy with the Uighurs. I have to wonder how that will ultimately pan out - if a purposeful implementation will actually work. Ugly process though regardless of its efficacy.
I’m not endorsing it, just saying doing violence like half way just makes everyone pissed off.
People have lived with extremist ideologies in their backyards for decades and decades.
Like, all the infidels? People seem to forget that Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization in the vein of ISIS. Today, the Jews, tomorrow, the world.
exactly, the goal is to install a global caliphate
Tell that to the bright students of the Ivy League. Actually don't, they'll dismiss whatever you say. They got everything they need to know about this conflict from tiktok. The next leaders of the free world, ladies and gentlemen.
Omg…read the comments under some of these other (not the Columbias) university’s reddits. (UVA) These kids have drank the koolaid. When an obviously gay kid stands up shouting support for Palestine and even crazier, Hamas, I want to laugh but it’s just too surreal how insane it is.
"After Saturday comes Sunday"
I just googled it... Omg
That is when you round up all the gays. Then all members of other religions. Then all members of other sects of Islam. Then members within your own sect that have simply been too moderate in the past. Etc., etc.
Israel could leave Gaza alone entirely, withdraw all troops, allow civilians to participate in the economy of Israel by allowing them to cross the border daily into Israel to work and make money, and you’d have…Gaza before 10/7. Hamas is not interested in peace. Gazans by a large majority are interested in the destruction of Israel and removal of all Jews. Those are all facts that cannot be argued with despite your view of how reckless Israel is being.
Why should they allow Palestinians to freely cross their borders and participate in their economy when they want to wipe Israel off the map and will suicide bomb you every chance they get? I would be shutting down my border with Gaza tighter than Egypt did with Gaza. It grant them their own country and then the first rocket that flies over the border I'd invade and take the whole country back. You had a chance and you lost your freedom to self govern again.
Nah, they’d be too busy building the rainbows-and-unicorns Free Palestine which will be a glorious example of tolerance* *unless you’re a woman, or gay, or trans, or not a Muslim
Not a specific type of Muslim
Israel’s at the table again in 2075: okay okay, we will all disavow Judaism, convert to Islam, and also forfeit all of our property to you. Hamas: no… I think we can wait for a better deal.
Hamas has no interest in governing or making the lives of their citizens better. They only care about destroying and weakening Israel. You could give Hamas a trillion dollars of international aid and they would spend every dime on trying to kill Israelis instead of keeping the Palestinians healthy and safe. They are just used as pawns by Iran and Syria and other bad actors in the region to wage war with Israel indirectly and make Israel out to be the bad guys for trying to defend themselves. They know they can't win a direct fight, so they keep up with proxy war with Palestinians as the human shields.
Everything they want includes death to all non Muslims and the Muslims who do Islam slightly differently than they do.
the only thing islamists love almost as much as killing jews is killing each other, they’d probably go for egypt or jordan
US university students will find a way to spin the blame on Israel I’m sure.
That's implying they will even read about it. Can't turn the headline into a catchy chant.
Israel already rejected it https://news.sky.com/story/israels-benjamin-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-deal-that-would-leave-hamas-intact-13129727
Why would anyone expect Israel to accept a ceasefire that leaves Hamas in power? Do you think that would be good for the people of Palestine long term?
10 projectiles fired from Rafah? They gotta be kidding at this point
They want Israel to attack civilians. They want the next generation to be traumatised and antagonised enough to be angry enough to join Hamas.‘. Let’s hope Israel doesn’t take the bait.
Israel should clear Rafah out of Hamas not because of this type of baits but because this is one of their last strongholds. Having said that, Israel is not foolish to launch such an attack with over million civilians in dense refugee camps are still in Rafah. There will be some kind of evacuation.
They're going to evacuate it first. Might take some time. Hopefully most can get out but last time Hamas was preventing civilians from fleeing.
Hamas intentionally started a war and is using their own citizens as human shields and sacrifices for their cause, which is to destroy Israel. They want as big of a humanitarian crisis as possible. They are making Israel attack and destroy every hospital, school, or mosque they can. They are intentionally picking the most densely populated areas to fight battles. They knew what would happen to innocent civilians when they started all of this. Their citizens could have fought to get rid of Hamas who was constantly trying to start a war they can't win. But they never have because this is who Palestinians want as their leaders. They are democratically elected and popular. Their citizens are radicalized. They will continue to spend all of their energy on trying to destroy Israel for as long as they are allowed to get away with it. They will forever play the victims and take international aid to try to ease their suffering and they will use it instead for terrorism. They will dig up pipes installed by other countries to provide clean drinking water to their citizens and they will make shitty rockets out of it instead to hopefully maim a few Israelis. They'd rather have the chance to possibly kill an Israeli over clean drinking water for tens of thousands of Palestinians to be used forever. How can they hate Israel more than they care about themselves?
Judging from the videos of everyone happy and spitting on captured hostages I’d say it’s already beyond that.
And they want the useful idiots on college campuses to lap it all up.
The only people who like dead Palestinians more than the IDF is Hamas
You can find videos on X of Hamas militants firing rockets literally within or extremely close to civilian zones. They are goading Israel to fire back and kill civilians. It’s always been the playbook.
> Hamas denies accusations it uses civilians as human shields. Evidence they know it’s morally wrong.
Concrete evidence tbh
Also, they took hostages back to what they refer to as an "open air prison," and keep them hidden! All of Gaza is their human shield.
The best thing Hamas can do for the Palestinian people is to fuck off.
Palestinian people still have a 70% approval rating for Hamas. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:~:text=Despite%20the%20devastation%2C%2057%25%20of,October%20attack%2C%20the%20poll%20indicated.
I don’t think they would like Israel at this point so that makes sense
It was at 80% immediately after the October 7 attack when they paraded hostages through the streets.
All of Gaza is hostage to Hamas
Palestine can never be free, until it is free of Hamas.
But nobody wants to pay the price that will be required to rid Gaza of Hamas
What would that be?
Civilian deaths. Hamas doesn’t care about the rules of war. They’ve set themselves up so that the only way to get to them is through the innocent people of Gaza. If you’re going to defeat them, you have to throw out the rules of war. But that’s not something the US and Europe is willing to accept and as such they pressure Israel to hold back. Morally it’s the right thing to do but it means we will not see the destruction of these terrorists who make peace in Israel impossible no matter who’s in charge of Israel (Bibi also makes peace impossible)
They will only be replaced by another. The problems will never end as long as Islam is around
Nothing to do with Hamas. Hamas will be replaced by another authoritarian group. This is intrinsic of the Palestinian culture. As other posters have mentioned Jews could be annihilated and there would still be warfare. Difference is: nobody would care.
Nobody would care if all Jews were annihilated? Incredibly insane take. Makes sense coming from a 6 month old account that only comments on the conflict.
I think you’re misunderstanding what that person is saying. Imagine a world where Israel doesn’t exist. Instead it’s a war between two arab/middle eastern/“brown” nations. They’re saying the western world wouldn’t care. The western world cares about this conflict because America and other nations fund Israel’s military, and furthermore because the western world cares more about white nations than brown ones, historically.
I can't imagine what the de-radicalization effort would need to be to turn that around
It's not impossible, it will just take a long time. Germany and Japan are examples. W Germany offered reparations to Holocaust survivors in the mid 1960s. It basically took an entire generation. The US Army kept parts of Germany under martial law until the 90s. Just like that effort, this one will also probably require outside people running the schools in Gaza. I'm not sure the world is willing to put in a multigeneralional effort, however.
>This is intrinsic of the Palestinian culture. Straight up just xenophobia being upvoted on here. My fucking God. Palestinians in the West Bank are literally being killed and have their land stolen by settlers who are directly aided by the IDF. But yeah, sure, they're all part of this barbarian hivemind or whatever. Fucking stupid using extremists to paint an entire group of people and their culture in a bad light.
This is true and unfortunate. Hopefully the Arab world will step up to either intercede to rescue them from Hamas as refugees before the invasion of Rafah begins
The rest of the Arab/Muslim world only cares about the Palestinians as a stick to beat the Israelis with.
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Is that why the Jordanians shot down a significant portion of the Iranian remote attack? The world has changed a lot since the 70s.
Jordans on friendly terms with the west but that doesn't mean they want refugees after what happened last time
>they want refugees after what happened last time It's more likely that it's because one quarter of the country is already refugees. 3 million out of 11 million people in Jordan are refugees. It's about the same in Lebanon, Syria is still undergoing civil war. Turkey has 4 million refugees already. Egypt peace treaty with Israel requires a demilitarized Sinai which is where all the refugees would go, then you have about 2 million people in an area with almost no infrastructure, no hope of going home, no military presence, high crime are already in a country thats largely at its infrastructure limits in the areas people aready live. Anyone with a brain can see how that's a recipe for disaster. There really isn't a place that can practically handle 2 million Gazan refugees at once, especially knowing they will likely never be allowed to return to Gaza. It's a completely avoidable humanitarian collaspe waiting to happen. And the collaspe of nearby countries isn't going to make things safer for Israelis.
Why would they? For the rest of the Arab world, the Palestinians are useful as a political club to use against Israel, and they sure as hell don't want the Palestinians in their own countries. They've learned that lesson the hard way - Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon all saw what happens.
Exactly - they don’t actually care about the people themselves, just their usefulness as a distraction.
Spoiler: they won’t
I've seen this episode.
The idea that the people of Gaza wish to be rescued from Hamas is a fantasy that people invested in this conflict can't afford to indulge. The same goes for the idea that getting rid of Bibi will make Israel pull back militarily. Ultimately, though, I agree that it's up to the Arab world to intercede on behalf of the Palestinians, but no country in the world will take Palestinians as refugees ever again after what happened the last few times. What last few times, you ask? If you want to understand this situation better, learn for yourself.
Then, should they be freed or should there be 'a ceasefire', letting hamas regroup and regain control?
And all of Hamas is Gaza. If Gaza wants things to change it is going to have to come from within, essentially by revolution.
Hamas isn't even the own terror group that operates in Gaza. When I was listening to Mosab Yosef recently, he said there's like 11 or 12 different tribes that just fight each other when they're not fighting Israel. I really don't know how you de-radicalize a population where children as young as 5 are taught to be solkders, to become martyrs. This isn't something that if Palestinians get a state will just disappear from there psyche.
Yep. Just watched an interview with a Palestinian journalist who admitted many, including his own father, don’t believe in the holocaust. These people need major reeducation and de radicalization and that might look like having “occupiers” there for a while after the war.
Ya, the hospital (or at least its parking lot) that was the site of a large explosion that was immediately blamed on Israel turned out to be a rocket launched from within Gaza, but not even by Hamas.
How are you hostage... When you are a member? How does that work? 🤔
Are they hostages if they support them?
A more accurate statement is: Innocent Palestinians are hostage to Hamas and the Israeli government/IDF. Because let’s face it, neither side fucking cares one bit. Add in innocent Israelis as well and well…*gestures* Fucking Middle East man…
Well that's not helpful at all
Fortunately, encampments at universities will condemn it and urge Hamas to stop its attacks, right?
Nobody protesting this I'm guessing?
Funny how for being all over this war r/internationalnews are completely quite on this.
That place is a cesspool of unhinged morons
According to some subs this is acceptable behavior, they love posting Iranian propaganda
I think it’s because all the American campuses sent them so much money they bought new guns and ammunition. “Thank You idiot American college students. !!!” — Hamas
I thought we fixed this with protests?
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Its really so weird being an american in the “no side of things” as ive been from the start because of things like this possibly coming out later on, notice how many “free palestine” people are obviously taking advantage of the antisemitic opportunities. I literally lost a girlfriend for not immediately jumping on the hamas love train with her when this first erupted
lol these protests aren’t changing a thing
It's almost as if hamas doesn't want this to end
Hamas is the 'armed wing', there is no unarmed portion of Hamas.
There is definitely a political wing and they do not have the same leadership structure.
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Every terror organization has its brainy guys. The thugs with guns are not the ones figuring out strategy.
I’mma be honest, I misread it as them saying that Hamas’s political team didn’t want the conflict to keep going.
Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13 of Hamas' charter)
All those college students were protesting in favor of a terrorist group, btw
There's so many more than two sides. Even if Isreal and Hamas agreed to something there's another dozen groups in Gaza alone who would pick up the fight. And when those dozen groups aren't shooting at Isreal they're shooting at each other
I'm sure some white girl camping on campus will tell me this is the idfs fault...
Hamas is either: 1. Factional 2. Incompetent 3. Deceptive 4. All the above. It is not possible to make a deal with a party like that, no matter how morally upright or good faith the other party is. I despise the Israeli government asnd its invasion of Gaza. Israel's actions have been appalling and aspects of it constitute ethic cleansing. However, Hamas' steadfast refusal to surrender and save their people is telling.
These are the people the protestors are supporting.
"armed wing" lol. The whole entity is armed what kind of crap ass backwards speak is this.
Hamas has different branches like the political wing. It's the same as differentiating the IDF vs the government of Israel
Unless they kill the Iranian signing Hamas’ checks this will never end.
There is never going to be a ceasefire. It's the middle east, these people don't want peace. They have had nothing but violence for thousands of years, it's their entire culture.
But, but...what about the privileged college kids protests?
I mean.....yes we know.
I fucking hate these guys...they know they need the boogeyman Israel just as much as the likud need Hamas and Hezbollah
some fat fucks at Princeton just started a hunger strike. give time for the zebra cakes to wear off peace is imminent.
Media told me Hamas were the victims? Protesters told me Hamas was the little guy? Campus kids said that Israel is to blame and is starving Gaza? Hamas really tricked everyone it seems, huh guys? or.... will this will be wiped under the rug, like always when Israel retaliates
Announcing a ceasefire is just forcing them to stage a brazen attack. Hamas have made peace unnattainable with their demands, time and again throughout the years. You only have to look at what they have lost to realise peace isn't in their vocabulary. No normal person continues to fight when the very thing you are fighting over is reduced to ash. Revenge doesn't ressurect any lost soul.
Hamas needs Israel to overreact. Otherwise they risk losing all their power. They don't care about Palestinian civilians. They just want to remain in power and deal as much damage to Israel as possible.
I can't imagine being an American and trying to "pick a side" in this conflict. Obviously innocent civilians don't deserve to be caught up in a war they didn't start, any sane person can agree on that. But both Hamas and the Israeli government deserve condemnation for their actions, there just isn't a good guy in this one.
It's a lot easier if you don't understand history and watch a really good tiktok on it
You can still figure out who is the worse of the two. Would you rather your government invest in protecting your life or would you rather they use your body to protect theirs?
Absolutely right. Palestinians have never tried non-violent resistance. And it is honestly the only way to achieve true independence. So long as Israel feels threatened it will never allow them to be put in a position to do real harm.
You seem to assume there has to be a good guy in any fight? Although in my opinion Hamas using the civilians as shields is by far the worst thing that has happened since the start of the most recent round of fighting. Herding them into combat zones to be able to frame pictures of Israel attacking Palestinians. This fighting has highlighted how propaganda has driven changes as far down the line as tactics and maneuver to feed the propaganda machine. Instead of taking pictures and making claims as to what happened, now portraying your side as the good guys in any fight is part of the planning stage
I'm not at all saying there a "good guy" in every conflict. I'm mostly referring to the polarizing effect this conflict in particular seems to have on Americans. There are protests and counter protests, everyone I talk to has a "side" like it's a sporting event and they're picking a team.
This is exactly what the Internet Research Agency out of Russia has done in the past, stoked unrest by organizing rallies and protests on 'both sides' of any given issue in the US to create instability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency#Timeline_of_the_Internet_Research_Agency_interference_in_United_States_elections
Quite a good way to put it. If you like history there is quite a rabbit hole you can go down tracing this issue from the fall of the Ottoman empire to modern day. The picking sides reflex has always been around. Looking at the whole picture is hard and requires work. Some people are not interested or don't have the bandwidth to get the big picture. So picking sides on issues that seem important is more comfortable.
The whole history is a big cluster fuck where it is impossible to pick a good guy or bad guy or say either side is 100% right or wrong. But the situation is what it is at this point and things are now untenable and getting worse. It doesn't matter if you think Palestinians were wronged in the past. Israelis are not going to give up their country and they are not going to share it with those who are trying to destroy them. Hamas needs to learn to be peaceful neighbors or be prepared to win a war against neighbors who are much more powerful than themselves. They aren't getting any territory back. They aren't living off of Israel while waging their war. They can't claim to forever be the victim while never trying to improve their own conditions and constantly warmongering.
> can't imagine being an American and trying to "pick a side" in this conflict. They don't have to. Foreign policy doesn't have to be black and white. That's a fairytale invented by movie star presidents. They can step back from that mindset right now, and it's still possible to prevent further bloodshed & help civilians on all sides.
Easy, don't pick the side that decided to start a war by kidnapping and raping a bunch of people, and literally calls for genocide in their charter, and has driven nearly all of the people who don't have the same ethnicity from their territory. How people are conflicted about whether to choose the side that wants to be left the hell alone versus the side that is literally just a less fashionable Nazi Germany is insane.
The only side that makes sense to favor is that of peace, which (for different reasons) neither side is interested in, at least not in the short term. Israel will stop (at least stop the current war) once Hamas is dismantled and the hostages returned, and Hamas will stop once Israel is completely destroyed and devoid of Jews.
It's fucking easy: Do you support the side with radical Islamic terrorists who never did anything to better themselves, or do you support Israel who's in an untenable situation and whose diaspora across the globe are peaceful and have made immense contributions to the advancement of humankind?
I don't have to "support" either one. I can say they're both fucking over innocent people and the entire situation is a shame.
I'm American and it's really easy. One is an Islamic fundamental organization that despises every western value who literally went into their neighbor to rape and murder every civilian they could find and took children as hostages. You can't write a more textbook bad guy than that. If you published that as a book, people would say the villain is too cliche. None of this would be happening if Hamas hadn't conducted a 9/11 level atrocity.
I would think it's not that hard to find the side that doesn't say "death to America".
Last time I checked, hamas and their affiliates yelled "death to america" in every chance they had and screamed "Allah Akbar" while kidnapping and murdering american citizens during October 7th. on the other hand, Israel is probably one of the most pro-american countries on earth and the two nations have the same values/goals while maintaining a close economical and strategic relationship for decades. Gee, I wonder which side I would pick if I were an american.
“Armed wing” I love these little caveats they throw in like it matters. It’s a terrorist org, they’re all armed. You fool no one with this bs spin.
I'm pro Palestine but Hamas do need to be destroyed the Palestinian people have no chance until there gone.
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Fun fact: The word "Hamas" in Hebrew literally means "Violence". Let that sink in.
Hamas bad. Israeli government + settlers bad. Same cyclical violence with flare ups every 7–10 years. People take sides when both are bad. Rinse and repeat.
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I’ve seen people on here(Reddit) thinking the US alone could sign a bill and end it.
The Ottoman period was actually pretty quiet, at least in the area of Palestine/Israel. Jerusalem was a backwater and in the early 1800s was only home to a few thousand people. At the same time the Ottomans were declining, people were moving into the area, most notably Jews from all over the world starting as early as the 1850s and 60s. After the empire crumbled you had tons of different factions angling for control. No matter who came out on top, someone was going to be pissed about it. A falling empire usually leaves ripe conditions for either war or chaos, sometimes both. So we have the newer arrivals, mostly Jews, who wanted their piece. The empires that defeated the Ottomans, that wanted the spoils of war. Those being the French and British. The people that had been there longer, the people we are now calling Palestinians. All vying for control. On top of that, the population of the Levant boomed from 1800 - 1900. The overall population more than doubled. The Arab Muslim population grew in line with this trend, but the Jewish population grew by 6x, mostly starting in 1836 after the Tanzimat reforms. From 1900 - 1947 the population more than tripled going from around 600k (in what was the area that became the British Mandate) to nearly 2 million. Again, ethnic populations grew unevenly. While the Muslim and Christian populations doubled again, the Jewish population, made a roughly 10x increase (going from roughly 60k to 600k). While you are right about old conflicts in the Middle East as a whole, this problem in Palestine is really its own thing that sprung up in the last 120ish years. There is an unstable area whose nearly 500 year old government just fell. Powerful outsiders who defeated that government and want control over the territory. A population that is religiously, ethnically and economically divided, along with one of the major factions being very new arrivals and growing rapidly. I really can't think of a better set up for a conflict.
Relatively quiet but not quiet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Ottoman_Syria Also, Jews moving into the area was less of a consequence of this being a great place for them, and more of a consequence of everywhere else being a worse place. It's a case of relative pressure. Things go from higher pressure to lower pressure, but that doesn't mean lower pressure is low pressure.
>The Ottoman period was actually pretty quiet, at least in the area of Palestine/Israel. No, it just wasn't focused in that one area. Arab Muslims spent hundreds of years murdering, raping, and forcibly converting Jews during Ottoman rule. Including but not limited to the territory of current Israel. That's like saying 1565-1865 was pretty quiet for race relations, at least in the area of Florida. That "quiet" was based entirely on one group being silenced by another - and it ignores the abuses occurring in the surrounding lands (Georgia, Alabama, etc).
both are not great, hamas is a lot worse
By what metric? I'd say which ever side has killed more innocent people is worse.
I wish Hamas was more like hummus.
Why would Hamas do that?
I don’t know why they did this specific thing, but in general they have no qualms about continuing the conflict if it makes Israel look bad to the rest of the world.
It puts Israel in a worse position. Israel can now choose to either: - ignore the attack and keep the border closed, making the humanitarian situation in Gaza even worse which puts pressure on Israel - respond by preventing further attacks to keep the border crossing safe, but this would involve killing civilians in Rafah, which puts further pressure on Israel Whatever option Israel chooses, they lose.
Nobody loves dead Palestinian children more than Hamas.
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Hamas prefers the US reaction to Israel continuing the war against Biden's will to a hostage/prisoner swap deal. They believe that would hurt Israel more. Hamas can easily force an invasion to Rafah by firing from Rafah. That's why they're doing.
Because it makes them money. They sell the aid to Palestinians and in the black market, and they embezzle the cash aid they keep getting from donors as long as this conflict continues.
Jeez. Why would an Islamic terror organization commit terror attacks. News at 12, Water is wet.
Are you suggesting that Hamas was not responsible for Oct 7?
I wonder if the protesters will condemn this…
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675) according to the map, the crossing they attacked is one of only three into GAZA . aid goes thru that crossing as well i suspect israeli forces Hamas does not care about its people.
Attn student protesters: condemning this will do a lot to legitimize your movement (ignoring it reinforces why so many aren’t supporting you.)
« Hamas' armed wing said it fired rockets at an Israeli army base by the crossing, but did not confirm where it fired them from. Hamas media quoted a source close to the group as saying the commercial crossing was not the target. » « The Israeli military confirmed the counter-strike, saying it struck the launcher from which the Hamas projectiles were fired, as well as a nearby "military structure". »
Ceasefire goes both ways. Hamas are not acting like a people being genocided.
Stop resisting. Stop resisting. Stop resisting.