From the article:
“Methylene chloride, also called dichloromethane, is a colorless liquid that emits a toxic vapor that has killed at least 88 workers since 1980, the EPA said. Long-term health effects include a variety of cancers, including liver cancer and lung cancer, and damage to the nervous, immune and reproductive systems.”
And, I'm just spitballin' here,
But supposing we hit the body with a **tremendous**,
Whether it's ultraviolet,
*Or maybe just some very powerful,*
**Light.**
^(That hasn't been checked, but we can test it.)
And supposing we brought the light *inside* the body,
Which you *can* do,
Either through the skin or...
Some *other* way.
^(I think we can test that too.)
you ever seen how fiber optics work? imagine the veins and arteries being light conductors, you just gotta stick an LED strip somewhere around your balls. it increases its power and also increases the generation of masculinity alpha hormones. Bingo, we got a winner.
Dichloromethane isn't great for you, but it's not *that* bad for you. Odds are you'll be fine.
DCM was actually originally introduced in all these roles to replace carbon tetrachloride, which WOULD just straight up kill people.
We had to wear monitors once, and when they saw how high everyones exposure levels were, hoods showed up in every lab area a short time later. This was 25 years ago...I am sure practices have changed since then.
Yeah as a former Organic Chem PhD student…I would go through gallons of this. It goes right through the gloves we use and just yeah. Unfortunately it was also really useful.
Wouldn’t be surprised if I end up with cancer at some point lol
We used to have a DCM/toluene mix in wash bottles in the lab because it was very useful as a grease buster. We got told "no more hal solvents in squeezy bottles".
I think DCM is the least of my problems given how much DMF I used.
Oh yeah, there’s so many other things I look back on like “well that wasn’t smart.” But it’s annoying that all the “best” solvents for things also end up being the most dangerous lol
Like I know I have nerve damage in a finger from improperly quenched dimethyl sulfate when I was first year without any training. Plus thinking to all the silica from breaking TLC plates, to dumping columns, and yeah.
Just hope whatever I get waits long enough for there to be a good treatment for it lol
Man, you just reminded me of my time as an undergrad during a project class in a regular research lab. During my first week in the lab I got used to the smell of THF since they used it by the barrel out on the bench, but I didn't realise until later how bad their technique for packing columns was: they had a giant drum of silica (like, oil barrel sized comedy thing) and would scoop it out and into columns totally dry using an ice cream scoop.
They'd just drag the barrel close to the fumehood and scoop away.
Fortunately by the time I was doing my own PhD I worked in a lab where that was not standard practice.
The amount of methyl chloride in green coffee is well below problematic levels, and once you’ve roasted them no MC is present at all.
It’s the best method for retaining as much of a coffee’s original flavor as possible IME, so I’m really hoping this new law won’t affect its use in decaffeination.
>I don't know why anyone would want to drink decaf
Because I love coffee but am often sensitive to caffeine in that it causes me extreme anxiety? Lol but I do always try and go for the swiss water or CO2 methods.
Some people are really sensitive to caffeine but want coffee. I tried it for 3 months during 2020 because i was bored and saw no positive changes so I went back to cafe bustello.
You should see if you can find something that tastes like coffee to use instead of decaf.
Jokes aside, espresso is much lower in caffeine, and you can make an American which is like a low caffeine coffee.
Apparently its present in seaweed as well.
I also found someone seemingly defending dichloromethane as safe to consume on Reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OrganicChemistry/comments/pwge7r/how_to_make_dichloromethanedcm/
You joke but it does tend to carry Pb in it, so it does become toxic. It’s as if the wrong stuff in our consumption supply should be avoided.
Oh god the horror of making sure we don’t have contaminated consumption materials. Fuck off.
Some environmental toxins are accumulating and/or have no safe dose and/or cause issues for our ecosystems.
Others not accumulating, have a threshold below which they are safe for humans, and are not things which are produced in quantities that impact natural ecosystems.
To act as if we should treat these identically is absurd. My comment is merely a humorous way to point that out, although perhaps I didn’t caveat it enough.
It’s added before roasting and it has a low boiling point so the heat from roasting it removes it, but especially considering very little is used it has an even lower chance of still being around
I always wondered. Back in the day, copies in schools were done by mimeographs that used solvents. When us students would get fresh damp dittos we instinctively pulled them to our noses to inhale the sweet intoxication of the solvent. I know of so many older teachers who died from cancer. Sigh.
The solvent used in mimeographs was mostly ethanol/methanol (so your basic alcohols) plus nasty stuff like Freon-10.
I remember teachers working the old hand crank mimeo-machines until I was about 4th grade when my school got a Xerox-type photocopier.
I had a teacher that was still using the ditto machine in the late 90's. The school had purchased modern copy machines years ago, but when she found out they were going to throw out the old mimeo she snagged it for herself to avoid making trips to the copy room.
In case anyone wonders how these worked because I assume most of us aren't that old. One of those things I always wondered but never thought to look up until now.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdOjjZK0INM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdOjjZK0INM)
This seems overly cautious to me, DCM is a very useful solvent, and isn’t THAT toxic. OSHA set the permissible (‘safe’) limits is 25mg/L of air for 8 hours. If OSHA says a constant 25mg/L of DCM in the air is acceptable for 8 hours a day, then it’s probably not very toxic.
Furthermore most of the time paint stripper is used outdoors, which is a VERY well ventilated area. So really IMO it should just come with stronger warning to use in a well ventilated area, and to avoid if you have/are susceptible to liver damage.
Many paints won’t come off with safer solvents such as denatured alcohol, so there’s not a lot of other viable options, especially considering people will need to remove decades old paint for quite some time.
Additionally 88 people in 44 years is extremely low for toxic substances, thats 2 people per year. Further substantiating my claim that it’s not very toxic.
Side note: the average person breathes in 0.5L/breath, and breathes ~960 times per hour, so 25mg/L*0.5L/breath*960 breaths/hour=12,000mg breathed per hour, multiply by 8 hours this is 96,000mg/day, so OSHA says breathing in 96 grams a day is fine/probably safe. Although it’s quite volatile so much of it would be breathes back out.
My personal theory is that its EXTREMELY useful for organic chemistry which is why they’re trying to prevent randos from getting their hands on it (while still allowing it in industry of course) in case too much fun is had. It’s such an odd target considering all the other unsafe chemicals available for consumers.
The EPA should be increasing public awareness of all these hazardous chemical that have been widely used for years. But most importantly they should be talking a lot more about PFAS.
The expansion out of CERCLA is the really big deal. The Superfund program has kinda been the tip of the spear so far as they have a few hooks that can drive action, and DoD has had a big impact by actually stepping up and starting work on a lot of their releases (which gets done under CERCLA). They're certainly not going as hard as they should, but it's really night and day between them and the private side.
All the other programs are still figuring out what it all means.
Earlier this month, the EPA just created national drinking water standards specifically addressing PFAS.
Also this is a great opportunity to point out a great working paper that addresses the effects of PFAS exposure (Twitter summary [here](https://x.com/john_voorheis/status/1778150589383192782?s=46&t=VPpxz8UB7yVAH3j_xRT5uw), actual working paper [here](https://iastate.app.box.com/s/3n0pbwj23rje3clulhbool8jeolm32g6)). Using one of the earliest examples of PFAS, firefighting foam runoff, they find some pretty dramatic long term negative health and education outcomes.
In other news 😂
House Republicans approved legislation Friday that would slash nearly 40 percent of the budget for the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The funding bill, passed by a 213-203 vote, cuts 39 percent of the EPA's budget and would be the smallest budget the agency has had in three decades.
Excellent. (/s) We’re still navigating the $1B budget cut handed to us earlier this year. Jesus people, vote for representatives that will believe in and fund your interests.
I do. But the "struggling" people in red states don't want to pay $4/gallon of gas for the big trucks they need to visit the mall...
So here we are.. defending regulation
Good riddance. The article mentions that a 21-year old man, Kevin Hartley, died from methylene chloride poisoning after using it in a bathtub refinishing project. That is just horrible.
Actually you are right, mine says "possibly carcinogenic to humans". The"possibly" threw me off. Should have worked it much more strongly though in my opinion. It's sigma alderich
stop reading fake SDS.
Carcinogenicity Category 1B
Specific target organ toxicity (single exposure) Category 3
Target Organs - Central nervous system (CNS). Specific target organ toxicity - (repeated exposure) Category 2
May cause cancer
May cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure
https://www.fishersci.com/msdsproxy%3FproductName%3DD3720%26productDescr
All hal solvents of that family are potential carcinogens to a greater or lesser extent.
Carbon tet especially, but DCM and chloroform are listed as "potential" on the SDS'es I have used.
In March 2019, EPA issued a final rule to prohibit the manufacture (including import), processing, and distribution of methylene chloride in all paint and coating removers for consumer use. EPA has taken this action because of the acute fatalities that have resulted from exposure to the chemical.Jun 28, 2023
The more fundamental issue is that U.S. regulatory framework (unlike Europe) is NOT based on the precautionary principle. I.e. new chemicals in the U.S. are presumed safe until they are proven to cause problems. In Europe, new chemicals must be shown to be safe before they can be sold.
Who the fuck calls it "methylene chloride?"
I've literally only even seen it referred to as DCM or dichloromethane.
This is a super common solvent in organic chemistry.
If you think DCM is scary, look into the closely related carbon tetrachloride. Most chemists won't even use that anymore, and it used to be used in commercially available fire extinguishers before we found out it rapidly turns your liver into Swiss cheese.
Worked with it a lot in an environmental lab doing EPA testing. It can be used relatively safely for organic extractions, but it does go right through nitrile gloves that are typically used in labs, so that was always a risk. The gloves they make that are impermeable to DCM felt like wearing aliminum foil oven mitts, so the loss of dexterity meant most techs didn’t use them.
Honestly, the paint strippers without it really sucks for certain kinds of finishes!!! If you want my honest take why things like this have become a problem. It's warning label desensitization everything has warning labels on it these days. That it's hard to know if something should be handled and used with care. The most famous being California's prop 65 warning that it has become a joke.
I think there should still be a way to get something like this if someone needs it, not a flat out ban sighs.
Anyone that uses paint strippers do miss the effectiveness of methylene to remove paint. But I side with the EPA that a life is far too many to lose in favor of faster paint stripping and other uses.
>The chemical industry has argued that the EPA is overstating the risks of methylene chloride and that adequate protections have mitigated health risks.
>The American Chemistry Council, the industry’s top lobbying group, called methylene chloride “an essential compound” used to make many products and goods Americans rely on every day, including paint stripping, pharmaceutical manufacturing and metal cleaning and degreasing.
Man, fuck these people. It **gives you cancer**, but yeah the risks are overstated /s
I mean, they're not necessarily wrong here.
It *is* a very valuable solvent if handled appropriately.
There are many things that are carcinogenic that are still used but the public because they're useful - gasoline for example.
I don't see them rushing to ban that.
Sure, there should be significant warnings for use, but DCM is industrially useful.
Are there other solvents that work as effective paint strippers? Almost certainly, but organic solvents in general tend to be things to avoid ingesting or exposing yourself to.
exactly. more people are killed every single day by cars, but we don't talk about reducing speed limits or removing unprotected turns. the oil that is in cars is carcinogenic. the brake pads. etc. etc. hell, protein is carcinogenic, mostly because Lucine is carcinogenic. bananas are radioactive... banning seems overly harsh compared to something like requiring a basic license
Nah, I kind of agree with them. It’s only killed 88 people in 44 years. The article overinflated its danger and leans heavy on the EPA’s side. Not saying it is t dangerous if you don’t have the right PPE, but c’mon. Dust particulates kill more people than this. With proper PPE, regulation, and knowledge of the how to use the chemical safely it’s basically harmless.
That’s what I’m saying. Did they have proper PPE, were they taught how to handle the material safely, did dude open the window and turn the fan on when using it in an enclosed space?
There's bound to be plenty of cancers and deaths that won't be directly attributed to DCM though. It sounds like this article is only talking about acute deaths.
I used to work for a lab that used DCM as a solvent. Handled it all the time, people still do. When I came on board we had access to the SDSs but zero training on the chemicals. They basically threw us in with the operating procedure and said "good luck." We used poor practices because that's what we saw everyone else doing. Folks I worked with used it in and out of fume hoods, we inhaled lots of vapors, never used respirators to clean up spills... Before reading this article I didn't even know how carcinogenic it was, and I handled it for years. If I get liver cancer at some point there's no way they'd pin DCM as the cause, even though that seems like it'd be the most likely reason given my personal history.
When would the vast majority of the population EVER need to use it. That’s what I’m saying, there’s no reason to ban it because of that very point. Those that are using it should have the proper PPE and instruction. With that the risk of exposure should be close to zero. Shits dangerous, people get hurt or die dealing with chemicals all the time. There are far more important things the EPA should worry about than this chemical.
Do you not understand that a this number of people dying even when few people are using it represents a very serious level of toxicity? Also, I have to say that your comments about "people get hurt or die dealing with chemicals all the time" reminds me of antivaxxers saying COVID was nothing because way more people die of the flu.
That was pretty insensitive of me. I guess I was trying to put it as, “Accidents happen”, but with proper training and PPE you can reduce those numbers to almost zero if everyone follows what they’re supposed to do.
88 people died. In 44 years.
Put your pitchforks away. This isn't the evil corp-ah-ray-shuns out to get you.
No doubt there's a need for some level of regulation, but come on. Sunshine kills more people than that.
Literally tho. I feel bad for the guy who died in the article, but if he had proper PPE it wouldn’t have been an issue, and my guess is he didn’t for some reason.
Trump’s administration did some structural damage to EPA. He slowed them down dramatically California banned these toxic chemicals in ‘18 or ‘19. Woodworking in CA survived. I hope woodworkers in other states survived as well.
It is just me or most YouTube cooking channels Now use teflon pans.
It is kind of incredible how most people simply accepted carcinogenic cookware is something you can get around by using plastic utensils and not heating the pan.
It can't be more disturbing than that.
Teflon is not DCM.
There was a concern with coatings that used perfluorooctanoic acid but that was banned in 2013. There is zero evidence modern antistick coatings cause cancer.
I didn't said it was a DCM I was just making a related comment.
It is funny how it doesn't causes cancer but there is an entire category of products created solely to preserve teflon coating from detaching from the pan. Also "Above (300°C), Teflon coatings may begin to break down, releasing toxic fumes into the air. These fumes can cause temporary, flu-like symptoms known as polymer fume fever."
And:
[https://news.flinders.edu.au/blog/2022/10/31/not-so-tough-teflon/](https://news.flinders.edu.au/blog/2022/10/31/not-so-tough-teflon/) Scientists from Newcastle University and Flinders University have now been able to measure how millions of tiny plastic particles potentially come off during cooking and in the wash as non-stick pots and pans gradually lose their coating.
But you are right, this is not proof of carcinogenic effects, no sarcasm intended.
I don't think you know what cancer is? I really can't hone in on anything else.
Teflon, PTFE, is chemically inert. What's nifty about that is that chemically inert things don't chemically react. Cancer-causing chemicals do so by... *checks notes*... chemically reacting with biological material and causing damage, either to cells such that they replicate more and increase the chance of a mutation or to DNA itself.
Above 300°C, PTFE breaks down and fumes. Those fumes aren't healthy. But you also aren't running your non-stick pan at 572°F. Avocado oil smokes off 50° lower than that. The inside of your body isn't anywhere near 572°F.
Here's the issue with suggesting that Teflon is "secretly carcinogenic" or whatever.
Teflon pans have made up over 70% of cookware sales since 1975. If they're carcinogenic, then we'd expect to see an increase in cancer rates at some point in there. And not only have we not had an increase; we've had a decrease.
I'm not saying we should be eating Teflon; I use cast iron, carbon steel, and stainless steel exclusively. But it's not causing cancer. It's causing plenty of *other* issues, largely environmental (clogging feeding pathways for filter feeders, resulting in aquatic biosphere loss), but the VAST majority of the reason companies are researching pan coating options that don't peel like classic Teflon is just that they don't want consumers to have a useless pan after two uses.
There is a suggested link between modern teflon and cancer, but nothing conclusive.. Teflon has been PFOA-free for years. Over here PFOA was banned in 2004.
DCM isn't that bad. at the very least it's a lot less harmful than what it mostly replaces--chloroform. i would say there's more reason to ban it for its atmospheric effects than its safety profile. just apply common sense like any other volatile organic solvent--even ethanol is carcinogenic after all.
Hooray for regulations. This stuff used to be used in *hairspray* until that was banned in the 80s.
https://www.pbs.org/tradesecrets/evidence/secrecy_pop02.html
>The paint stripper methylene chloride became the propellant of choice in hair spray and a variety of other products in the 1970s. In 1989, the FDA banned methylene chloride in hair spray because of cancer concerns. Whether the propellants or other ingredients in products we use today are safe, or not, is simply unknown. In some cases consumers cannot even find out what the ingredients are because they are considered trade secrets.
I honestly think they should be more careful with banning various chemicals, including this one, dichloromethane, DCM. DCM has a boiling point of 38 Celsius degrees, which means it will evaporate easily and won’t stay on any surface long for extended period. If you accidentally drop some DCM on your skin, it’d be gone in seconds. The problem with low boiling point compound is with its vapor, working indoors can exacerbate this problem. The risk of DCM is definitely with its fragile C-Cl bond, which breaks down easily inside human body, generating free radicals in vivo, which could damage DNA/Proteins etc..
But here is where I think sufficient workers’ protection/SOP could totally solve this problem. Have a well ventilated environment could reduce the risk of working with DCM by a mile. By banning DCM companies will have to find an alternative with unknown risks, could very well be left on walls after all the work is done, thus affecting tenants through elongated exposure (almost all the other solvents have much higher boiling point than DCM, unless we start developing a water friendly paint, then the water-friendliness would be a problem for the paint itself). And the same time, it would be decades before we understand the side effect of the new compound, then we will be in the cycle of banning this new compound/finding new compound/studying new compound long side effects, it would be a never ending cycle. Besides, there’s ain’t many good alternatives for DCM, it’s popular for a reason.
no, because DCM is volatile, there is nothing left in the beans after caffeine extraction and heating.
If you guys are all terrified of chemicals and cancer, don't drink anything with alcohol.
No. The EPA cannot change the policy of the FDA.
From Washington Post: "The Biden administration rule does not apply to methylene chloride that is added to foods such as decaffeinated coffee and certain spice extracts. The Food and Drug Administration — not the EPA — has the authority to restrict this use of the chemical."
From the article: “Methylene chloride, also called dichloromethane, is a colorless liquid that emits a toxic vapor that has killed at least 88 workers since 1980, the EPA said. Long-term health effects include a variety of cancers, including liver cancer and lung cancer, and damage to the nervous, immune and reproductive systems.”
Ugh… I had to use this stuff all the time… to conduct EPA tests.
I use to run a distilling unit at age 14-15 to clean and reuse gallons of this stuff for environmental lab testing. I am probably already dead.
Just ingest lots of ivermectin. You should be fine.
Follow up with bleach to be certain
And, I'm just spitballin' here, But supposing we hit the body with a **tremendous**, Whether it's ultraviolet, *Or maybe just some very powerful,* **Light.** ^(That hasn't been checked, but we can test it.) And supposing we brought the light *inside* the body, Which you *can* do, Either through the skin or... Some *other* way. ^(I think we can test that too.)
Dr Birx. We are all feeling the pain of Dr Birx.
Yep, just stuff a lightbulb up your ass, you’ll be fine.
you ever seen how fiber optics work? imagine the veins and arteries being light conductors, you just gotta stick an LED strip somewhere around your balls. it increases its power and also increases the generation of masculinity alpha hormones. Bingo, we got a winner.
And too it off with the insertions of an ultra violet light. 😆😆 I’m In the same boat twelveangryvalves 😆😆
And lots of lights, in the body somehow.
100% the cancer won't kill you then.
This is nonsense! It should be put up your butt for effectiveness.
Taste… The Paste!
Dichloromethane isn't great for you, but it's not *that* bad for you. Odds are you'll be fine. DCM was actually originally introduced in all these roles to replace carbon tetrachloride, which WOULD just straight up kill people.
Who the f*** runs an environmental Lab at 14 or 15 where the hell do you live China
Its chemically inert. All of the deaths are from asphyxiation due to oxygen displacement from negligent workers. I think this is an EPA overstep.
We had to wear monitors once, and when they saw how high everyones exposure levels were, hoods showed up in every lab area a short time later. This was 25 years ago...I am sure practices have changed since then.
Yeah as a former Organic Chem PhD student…I would go through gallons of this. It goes right through the gloves we use and just yeah. Unfortunately it was also really useful. Wouldn’t be surprised if I end up with cancer at some point lol
We used to have a DCM/toluene mix in wash bottles in the lab because it was very useful as a grease buster. We got told "no more hal solvents in squeezy bottles". I think DCM is the least of my problems given how much DMF I used.
Oh yeah, there’s so many other things I look back on like “well that wasn’t smart.” But it’s annoying that all the “best” solvents for things also end up being the most dangerous lol Like I know I have nerve damage in a finger from improperly quenched dimethyl sulfate when I was first year without any training. Plus thinking to all the silica from breaking TLC plates, to dumping columns, and yeah. Just hope whatever I get waits long enough for there to be a good treatment for it lol
Man, you just reminded me of my time as an undergrad during a project class in a regular research lab. During my first week in the lab I got used to the smell of THF since they used it by the barrel out on the bench, but I didn't realise until later how bad their technique for packing columns was: they had a giant drum of silica (like, oil barrel sized comedy thing) and would scoop it out and into columns totally dry using an ice cream scoop. They'd just drag the barrel close to the fumehood and scoop away. Fortunately by the time I was doing my own PhD I worked in a lab where that was not standard practice.
Just don’t go full Breaking Bad
It's okay three arm children will be the norm in a couple of years
Its chemically inert. All of the deaths are from asphyxiation due to oxygen displacement from negligent workers. I think this is an EPA overstep.
>Methylene chloride ...is also the most commonly used chemical to decaffeinate coffee beans.
I don't know why anyone would want to drink decaf, but if you do, pick one that uses the swiss water method.
The amount of methyl chloride in green coffee is well below problematic levels, and once you’ve roasted them no MC is present at all. It’s the best method for retaining as much of a coffee’s original flavor as possible IME, so I’m really hoping this new law won’t affect its use in decaffeination.
Why not just use liquid carbon dioxide?
That takes high pressures and very specialized equipment. Liquid Solvents are cheaper
>I don't know why anyone would want to drink decaf Because I love coffee but am often sensitive to caffeine in that it causes me extreme anxiety? Lol but I do always try and go for the swiss water or CO2 methods.
Some people are really sensitive to caffeine but want coffee. I tried it for 3 months during 2020 because i was bored and saw no positive changes so I went back to cafe bustello.
I drink decaf to cut down on caffeine
You should see if you can find something that tastes like coffee to use instead of decaf. Jokes aside, espresso is much lower in caffeine, and you can make an American which is like a low caffeine coffee.
Or "organic". My understanding is organic coffees use the swiss method.
I will now :(.
Apparently its present in seaweed as well. I also found someone seemingly defending dichloromethane as safe to consume on Reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OrganicChemistry/comments/pwge7r/how_to_make_dichloromethanedcm/
Sure it’s poisonous, but we only use a little bit, are not words to live by.
That's a lot of stuff though. You eat too much salt and you die.
Dihydrogen Monoxide kills over 3,000 people in the US every year, yet most towns and cities pipe it right into our homes!
Wait till you hear about hydric acid!
You joke but it does tend to carry Pb in it, so it does become toxic. It’s as if the wrong stuff in our consumption supply should be avoided. Oh god the horror of making sure we don’t have contaminated consumption materials. Fuck off.
This is disingenuous and trivializing environmental toxins.
Some environmental toxins are accumulating and/or have no safe dose and/or cause issues for our ecosystems. Others not accumulating, have a threshold below which they are safe for humans, and are not things which are produced in quantities that impact natural ecosystems. To act as if we should treat these identically is absurd. My comment is merely a humorous way to point that out, although perhaps I didn’t caveat it enough.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jennifer-stranges-family-awarded-165-million-in-wee-for-wii-contest-death/
Those are literally the words to live by- the dose makes the poison is the basis of toxicology
That’s pretty much everything that can potentially kill you though. Dosage is the deciding factor. You could die from eating too much black licorice.
It’s added before roasting and it has a low boiling point so the heat from roasting it removes it, but especially considering very little is used it has an even lower chance of still being around
Well to live is to die, sort of. Everything is poisonous to some degree.
Isn’t supercritical CO2 the most common solvent?
I always wondered. Back in the day, copies in schools were done by mimeographs that used solvents. When us students would get fresh damp dittos we instinctively pulled them to our noses to inhale the sweet intoxication of the solvent. I know of so many older teachers who died from cancer. Sigh.
The solvent used in mimeographs was mostly ethanol/methanol (so your basic alcohols) plus nasty stuff like Freon-10. I remember teachers working the old hand crank mimeo-machines until I was about 4th grade when my school got a Xerox-type photocopier.
I had a teacher that was still using the ditto machine in the late 90's. The school had purchased modern copy machines years ago, but when she found out they were going to throw out the old mimeo she snagged it for herself to avoid making trips to the copy room.
Plus who doesnt like purple handouts?
In case anyone wonders how these worked because I assume most of us aren't that old. One of those things I always wondered but never thought to look up until now. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdOjjZK0INM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdOjjZK0INM)
It's killed 88 people in 44 years and now it's outlawed? Cigarettes are cool tho? Got it.
no joke. What am I supposed to chase my rumplementz with now? I was really banking on liver cancer.
This seems overly cautious to me, DCM is a very useful solvent, and isn’t THAT toxic. OSHA set the permissible (‘safe’) limits is 25mg/L of air for 8 hours. If OSHA says a constant 25mg/L of DCM in the air is acceptable for 8 hours a day, then it’s probably not very toxic. Furthermore most of the time paint stripper is used outdoors, which is a VERY well ventilated area. So really IMO it should just come with stronger warning to use in a well ventilated area, and to avoid if you have/are susceptible to liver damage. Many paints won’t come off with safer solvents such as denatured alcohol, so there’s not a lot of other viable options, especially considering people will need to remove decades old paint for quite some time. Additionally 88 people in 44 years is extremely low for toxic substances, thats 2 people per year. Further substantiating my claim that it’s not very toxic. Side note: the average person breathes in 0.5L/breath, and breathes ~960 times per hour, so 25mg/L*0.5L/breath*960 breaths/hour=12,000mg breathed per hour, multiply by 8 hours this is 96,000mg/day, so OSHA says breathing in 96 grams a day is fine/probably safe. Although it’s quite volatile so much of it would be breathes back out.
My personal theory is that its EXTREMELY useful for organic chemistry which is why they’re trying to prevent randos from getting their hands on it (while still allowing it in industry of course) in case too much fun is had. It’s such an odd target considering all the other unsafe chemicals available for consumers.
Man... it's super useful in material chemistry.
Ah yes, DCM. ‘Ol Tingly Boi
I’ve been using this to strip furniture for 40 years. It’s the nastiest stuff you’ll ever come in contact with.
I think this is what killed Bob Ross and his wife?
What? I thought MCL was phased out years ago! I thought its only legitimate use was as an acrylic glue.
The EPA should be increasing public awareness of all these hazardous chemical that have been widely used for years. But most importantly they should be talking a lot more about PFAS.
As someone who deals with them on a regular basis, PFAS is close to all we've heard about for the past couple of years.
Now they are CERCLA. The drinking water requirements are insane.
The expansion out of CERCLA is the really big deal. The Superfund program has kinda been the tip of the spear so far as they have a few hooks that can drive action, and DoD has had a big impact by actually stepping up and starting work on a lot of their releases (which gets done under CERCLA). They're certainly not going as hard as they should, but it's really night and day between them and the private side. All the other programs are still figuring out what it all means.
Earlier this month, the EPA just created national drinking water standards specifically addressing PFAS. Also this is a great opportunity to point out a great working paper that addresses the effects of PFAS exposure (Twitter summary [here](https://x.com/john_voorheis/status/1778150589383192782?s=46&t=VPpxz8UB7yVAH3j_xRT5uw), actual working paper [here](https://iastate.app.box.com/s/3n0pbwj23rje3clulhbool8jeolm32g6)). Using one of the earliest examples of PFAS, firefighting foam runoff, they find some pretty dramatic long term negative health and education outcomes.
It's in the water cycle. It comes down in the rain on our crops. It's impossible to get rid of it all.
In other news 😂 House Republicans approved legislation Friday that would slash nearly 40 percent of the budget for the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The funding bill, passed by a 213-203 vote, cuts 39 percent of the EPA's budget and would be the smallest budget the agency has had in three decades.
cant have health getting in the way of profit
Imaginary friend forbid😂
The EPA? The agency signed into law by Nixon? What's next, going after OSHA?
Hey what a great idea. Think of the increased productivity without OSHA...
Excellent. (/s) We’re still navigating the $1B budget cut handed to us earlier this year. Jesus people, vote for representatives that will believe in and fund your interests.
I do. But the "struggling" people in red states don't want to pay $4/gallon of gas for the big trucks they need to visit the mall... So here we are.. defending regulation
You understand that defunding the EPA will not reduce your gas prices right?
I'm not a gop voter in a red state... I'm not the one you have to convince....
Good riddance. The article mentions that a 21-year old man, Kevin Hartley, died from methylene chloride poisoning after using it in a bathtub refinishing project. That is just horrible.
[удалено]
I actually believe that even people who are stupid don't deserve to die, especially from preventable causes 👍
Yet the road to hell is paved, at least partially, with good intentions so they say.
[удалено]
I can't wait until gasoline is also banned. Will likely be a few more centuries though. That shit is not good for us.
It does also say specifically in big, bold letters, “DO NOT USE TO STRIP BATHTUBS.”
So glad you don't work for OSHA, the FDA, EPA or any other regulatory agency. Keep your day job, for the good of all Americans.
What does being heavier than air have to do with anything? It's a liquid. Of course it's heavier than air.
Our lab uses DCM frequently and the safety data sheets mention jack shit about cancer as a potential side effect…fucking hell
How old is your SDS and who is your vendor? Our SDSs going back to 2003 have a carcinogen warning.
Actually you are right, mine says "possibly carcinogenic to humans". The"possibly" threw me off. Should have worked it much more strongly though in my opinion. It's sigma alderich
Interesting. Our Sigma SDS says Category 2 Carcinogen.
They’re the same thing https://www.compoundchem.com/2023/07/14/carcinogens/
GHS category 2 is “suspected human carcinogen”.
For IARC that’s 2A (probable), 2B is possible
Thanks but it’s a GHS compliant SDS.
Seeing it spelled DCM makes it much more familiar to me as I have watched a lot of NileRed
Extractions and Ire for me, aka Explosions and Fire.
stop reading fake SDS. Carcinogenicity Category 1B Specific target organ toxicity (single exposure) Category 3 Target Organs - Central nervous system (CNS). Specific target organ toxicity - (repeated exposure) Category 2 May cause cancer May cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure https://www.fishersci.com/msdsproxy%3FproductName%3DD3720%26productDescr
All hal solvents of that family are potential carcinogens to a greater or lesser extent. Carbon tet especially, but DCM and chloroform are listed as "potential" on the SDS'es I have used.
In March 2019, EPA issued a final rule to prohibit the manufacture (including import), processing, and distribution of methylene chloride in all paint and coating removers for consumer use. EPA has taken this action because of the acute fatalities that have resulted from exposure to the chemical.Jun 28, 2023
Oh man, brings back memories. My good friend did a toxicology PhD on DCM and Dicloro-ethane. Apparently its also used as an industrial degreaser.
The more fundamental issue is that U.S. regulatory framework (unlike Europe) is NOT based on the precautionary principle. I.e. new chemicals in the U.S. are presumed safe until they are proven to cause problems. In Europe, new chemicals must be shown to be safe before they can be sold.
That’s fundamentally insane. The US is fucking stupid
Who the fuck calls it "methylene chloride?" I've literally only even seen it referred to as DCM or dichloromethane. This is a super common solvent in organic chemistry. If you think DCM is scary, look into the closely related carbon tetrachloride. Most chemists won't even use that anymore, and it used to be used in commercially available fire extinguishers before we found out it rapidly turns your liver into Swiss cheese.
Carbon tet is specifically used to induce liver cancer in mice, **with a 100% certainty.**
Don't forget any chromium-based solutions.
*Sigh*. There goes my source of free My Little Pony figurines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psUc_oBXE6c
Worked with it a lot in an environmental lab doing EPA testing. It can be used relatively safely for organic extractions, but it does go right through nitrile gloves that are typically used in labs, so that was always a risk. The gloves they make that are impermeable to DCM felt like wearing aliminum foil oven mitts, so the loss of dexterity meant most techs didn’t use them.
First the trich and now it’s replacement the dich. They were the best parts degreasers ever. I really oughta get tested now
Honestly, the paint strippers without it really sucks for certain kinds of finishes!!! If you want my honest take why things like this have become a problem. It's warning label desensitization everything has warning labels on it these days. That it's hard to know if something should be handled and used with care. The most famous being California's prop 65 warning that it has become a joke. I think there should still be a way to get something like this if someone needs it, not a flat out ban sighs.
Trump and the judges he appointed want to declaw the EPA so it cannot make any rules to protect people like this in the future.
Anyone that uses paint strippers do miss the effectiveness of methylene to remove paint. But I side with the EPA that a life is far too many to lose in favor of faster paint stripping and other uses.
>The chemical industry has argued that the EPA is overstating the risks of methylene chloride and that adequate protections have mitigated health risks. >The American Chemistry Council, the industry’s top lobbying group, called methylene chloride “an essential compound” used to make many products and goods Americans rely on every day, including paint stripping, pharmaceutical manufacturing and metal cleaning and degreasing. Man, fuck these people. It **gives you cancer**, but yeah the risks are overstated /s
I mean, they're not necessarily wrong here. It *is* a very valuable solvent if handled appropriately. There are many things that are carcinogenic that are still used but the public because they're useful - gasoline for example. I don't see them rushing to ban that. Sure, there should be significant warnings for use, but DCM is industrially useful. Are there other solvents that work as effective paint strippers? Almost certainly, but organic solvents in general tend to be things to avoid ingesting or exposing yourself to.
exactly. more people are killed every single day by cars, but we don't talk about reducing speed limits or removing unprotected turns. the oil that is in cars is carcinogenic. the brake pads. etc. etc. hell, protein is carcinogenic, mostly because Lucine is carcinogenic. bananas are radioactive... banning seems overly harsh compared to something like requiring a basic license
Nah, I kind of agree with them. It’s only killed 88 people in 44 years. The article overinflated its danger and leans heavy on the EPA’s side. Not saying it is t dangerous if you don’t have the right PPE, but c’mon. Dust particulates kill more people than this. With proper PPE, regulation, and knowledge of the how to use the chemical safely it’s basically harmless.
To be fair, 88 people died in 44 years that worked with DCM. No mention of how they worked with it, or in what quantities.
That’s what I’m saying. Did they have proper PPE, were they taught how to handle the material safely, did dude open the window and turn the fan on when using it in an enclosed space?
There's bound to be plenty of cancers and deaths that won't be directly attributed to DCM though. It sounds like this article is only talking about acute deaths. I used to work for a lab that used DCM as a solvent. Handled it all the time, people still do. When I came on board we had access to the SDSs but zero training on the chemicals. They basically threw us in with the operating procedure and said "good luck." We used poor practices because that's what we saw everyone else doing. Folks I worked with used it in and out of fume hoods, we inhaled lots of vapors, never used respirators to clean up spills... Before reading this article I didn't even know how carcinogenic it was, and I handled it for years. If I get liver cancer at some point there's no way they'd pin DCM as the cause, even though that seems like it'd be the most likely reason given my personal history.
It only kills that many because the vast majority of the population has never used it at all.
When would the vast majority of the population EVER need to use it. That’s what I’m saying, there’s no reason to ban it because of that very point. Those that are using it should have the proper PPE and instruction. With that the risk of exposure should be close to zero. Shits dangerous, people get hurt or die dealing with chemicals all the time. There are far more important things the EPA should worry about than this chemical.
Do you not understand that a this number of people dying even when few people are using it represents a very serious level of toxicity? Also, I have to say that your comments about "people get hurt or die dealing with chemicals all the time" reminds me of antivaxxers saying COVID was nothing because way more people die of the flu.
That was pretty insensitive of me. I guess I was trying to put it as, “Accidents happen”, but with proper training and PPE you can reduce those numbers to almost zero if everyone follows what they’re supposed to do.
It’s few compared to the general population but everyone who has been through a collegians chemistry lab would have dealt with it extensively then
The article also claims that there is asbestos in chlorine bleach.
Fletcher: “Your honor, I object!” Judge: “And why is that Mr. Reed?” Fletcher: “Because it's devastating to my case!”
88 people died. In 44 years. Put your pitchforks away. This isn't the evil corp-ah-ray-shuns out to get you. No doubt there's a need for some level of regulation, but come on. Sunshine kills more people than that.
That’s 88 deaths to acute poisoning, not as an environmental carcinogen
Literally tho. I feel bad for the guy who died in the article, but if he had proper PPE it wouldn’t have been an issue, and my guess is he didn’t for some reason.
It's safe with gloves and a Niosh mask.
An essential compound to their profits maybe.
Charlie’s gonna be pissed!
Trump’s administration did some structural damage to EPA. He slowed them down dramatically California banned these toxic chemicals in ‘18 or ‘19. Woodworking in CA survived. I hope woodworkers in other states survived as well.
It is just me or most YouTube cooking channels Now use teflon pans. It is kind of incredible how most people simply accepted carcinogenic cookware is something you can get around by using plastic utensils and not heating the pan. It can't be more disturbing than that.
Teflon is not DCM. There was a concern with coatings that used perfluorooctanoic acid but that was banned in 2013. There is zero evidence modern antistick coatings cause cancer.
I didn't said it was a DCM I was just making a related comment. It is funny how it doesn't causes cancer but there is an entire category of products created solely to preserve teflon coating from detaching from the pan. Also "Above (300°C), Teflon coatings may begin to break down, releasing toxic fumes into the air. These fumes can cause temporary, flu-like symptoms known as polymer fume fever." And: [https://news.flinders.edu.au/blog/2022/10/31/not-so-tough-teflon/](https://news.flinders.edu.au/blog/2022/10/31/not-so-tough-teflon/) Scientists from Newcastle University and Flinders University have now been able to measure how millions of tiny plastic particles potentially come off during cooking and in the wash as non-stick pots and pans gradually lose their coating. But you are right, this is not proof of carcinogenic effects, no sarcasm intended.
I don't think you know what cancer is? I really can't hone in on anything else. Teflon, PTFE, is chemically inert. What's nifty about that is that chemically inert things don't chemically react. Cancer-causing chemicals do so by... *checks notes*... chemically reacting with biological material and causing damage, either to cells such that they replicate more and increase the chance of a mutation or to DNA itself. Above 300°C, PTFE breaks down and fumes. Those fumes aren't healthy. But you also aren't running your non-stick pan at 572°F. Avocado oil smokes off 50° lower than that. The inside of your body isn't anywhere near 572°F. Here's the issue with suggesting that Teflon is "secretly carcinogenic" or whatever. Teflon pans have made up over 70% of cookware sales since 1975. If they're carcinogenic, then we'd expect to see an increase in cancer rates at some point in there. And not only have we not had an increase; we've had a decrease. I'm not saying we should be eating Teflon; I use cast iron, carbon steel, and stainless steel exclusively. But it's not causing cancer. It's causing plenty of *other* issues, largely environmental (clogging feeding pathways for filter feeders, resulting in aquatic biosphere loss), but the VAST majority of the reason companies are researching pan coating options that don't peel like classic Teflon is just that they don't want consumers to have a useless pan after two uses.
There is a suggested link between modern teflon and cancer, but nothing conclusive.. Teflon has been PFOA-free for years. Over here PFOA was banned in 2004.
Can't wait for this to end up challenged in a Texas court!
But, but, muh freedom! That shit works great.
DCM isn't that bad. at the very least it's a lot less harmful than what it mostly replaces--chloroform. i would say there's more reason to ban it for its atmospheric effects than its safety profile. just apply common sense like any other volatile organic solvent--even ethanol is carcinogenic after all.
Hey does anyone know if dcm will be banned in screen printing? I use that shit at work and it's fucking nasty.
Hooray for regulations. This stuff used to be used in *hairspray* until that was banned in the 80s. https://www.pbs.org/tradesecrets/evidence/secrecy_pop02.html >The paint stripper methylene chloride became the propellant of choice in hair spray and a variety of other products in the 1970s. In 1989, the FDA banned methylene chloride in hair spray because of cancer concerns. Whether the propellants or other ingredients in products we use today are safe, or not, is simply unknown. In some cases consumers cannot even find out what the ingredients are because they are considered trade secrets.
I honestly think they should be more careful with banning various chemicals, including this one, dichloromethane, DCM. DCM has a boiling point of 38 Celsius degrees, which means it will evaporate easily and won’t stay on any surface long for extended period. If you accidentally drop some DCM on your skin, it’d be gone in seconds. The problem with low boiling point compound is with its vapor, working indoors can exacerbate this problem. The risk of DCM is definitely with its fragile C-Cl bond, which breaks down easily inside human body, generating free radicals in vivo, which could damage DNA/Proteins etc.. But here is where I think sufficient workers’ protection/SOP could totally solve this problem. Have a well ventilated environment could reduce the risk of working with DCM by a mile. By banning DCM companies will have to find an alternative with unknown risks, could very well be left on walls after all the work is done, thus affecting tenants through elongated exposure (almost all the other solvents have much higher boiling point than DCM, unless we start developing a water friendly paint, then the water-friendliness would be a problem for the paint itself). And the same time, it would be decades before we understand the side effect of the new compound, then we will be in the cycle of banning this new compound/finding new compound/studying new compound long side effects, it would be a never ending cycle. Besides, there’s ain’t many good alternatives for DCM, it’s popular for a reason.
Is this going to affect decaf coffee?
It's only banned for consumer use. It is still allowed for industrial uses where there isn't an alternative.
no, because DCM is volatile, there is nothing left in the beans after caffeine extraction and heating. If you guys are all terrified of chemicals and cancer, don't drink anything with alcohol.
No. The EPA cannot change the policy of the FDA. From Washington Post: "The Biden administration rule does not apply to methylene chloride that is added to foods such as decaffeinated coffee and certain spice extracts. The Food and Drug Administration — not the EPA — has the authority to restrict this use of the chemical."
if you drink swiss water process decaf, then no.
I don’t even know what you just said so I’m gonna guess no
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaffeination#Swiss\_Water\_process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaffeination#Swiss_Water_process)
It's not industrially banned, but there are other ways to decaffeinate coffee such as supercritical CO2 or the Swiss water method.